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Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Influential composer and especially composition teacher, born in India, teaching in Germany, Netherlands, U.S and many more. I'm sorry that I looked only now, - he'd deserve more detail. Traveling tomorrow and hoping for help. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:15, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Article:Wiener Zeitung (talk·history·tag) Blurb: Wiener Zeitung, the oldest newspaper still published in the world, ends its daily print run. (Post) Alternative blurb: Wiener Zeitung, one of the oldest newspapers still published in the world, ends its daily print run. Alternative blurb II: Wiener Zeitung, one of the oldest newspapers still published in the world, ends its daily print after 320 years. Alternative blurb III: Wiener Zeitung, one of the oldest newspapers still published in the world, ends its daily print after over 200 years. News source(s):The Associated Press via ABC News
Support in principle but article still needs a little bit of work in the lead. A sign of the times, definitely blurbable. --Ouro (blah blah) 06:01, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose My understaind is that the concept of the "oldest newspaper", and especially "oldest newspaper still in publication" is completely arbitrary sort of similar to the oldest university still open because there's no universal definition on what to consider a newspaper, nor on what does it mean to be "continuously still in publication". As an encyclopedia we should strive for precision not flashy blurbs and titles worthy of daily mail or russia today or cnn Daikido (talk) 07:33, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support News reports such as this characterise it as "One of world’s oldest newspapers" which seems fine. As we have a special focus on news, this historic event is quite appropriate. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:10, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support I planned to nominate this yesterday after noticing it on the German Wikipedia's main page but totally forgot due to some commitments at work. This is a significant event of high encyclopedic value.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 10:09, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Supporters should try reading the article. Huge paragraphs are either unsourced or based on a single source, and there are a number of run-on sentences. I would certainly consider supporting once those issues and the blurb are sorted out. -- Kicking222 (talk) 12:54, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Actually if you've seen my MO for the past several years, I have pointed to how the shift of traditional media from print to this always-on 24/7 version, as to compete with blogs and armchair "experts" and Fox News, has weakened the objectivity of news coverage. However, we know that is not going to go away, it is the new reality. That a long-running newspaper has decided to drop its print version but continue on online is not really a huge piece of news - just like with the Old Gray Mare (NYTimes) it was a matter of when, not if. Masem (t) 13:20, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Suppose - I kind of think that a paper going from daily print to monthly print is a bigger deal than some people think. They are no longer acting as a daily news source through which people can stay up-to-date on current affairs, and the staff of over 200 employees has been slashed to a measly 20. It is effectively killing the newspaper; it's just a matter of time before it's finally laid in the ground and buried. While it's true the Internet may have effectively replaced print media, we also have to remember the historical significance that this paper carried as being the oldest in the world. --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)13:55, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, with alternate blurb Definitely noteworthy and agree with Knightsofthewords re: ITN relevance. Why not just say 'ends it daily print run after 320 years' to avoid the 'oldest' debate Schwinnspeed (talk) 15:17, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Would support if the printing altogether ended, but they're only ending their daily print. Newspaper still exists and is going to continue publishing their monthly prints. Also, there's a few dubious & "when" tags still remaining that need to be resolved. TwistedAxe[contact]17:14, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per above. An important milestone in the slow death of print media. In particular, I agree with WaltCip that going from daily to monthly publication is a much bigger deal than a monthly publication going out of business. Davey2116 (talk) 20:17, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on quality. The article is in abysmal shape. Multiple unreferenced paragraphs, style issues, POV statements, structural issues, disconnected statements without context or stated relevance. It's nowhere near the level of comprehensive I would expect. The entire history between its founding and the late 1990s/early 2000s is covered in one paragraph; the last twenty years has more coverage than the first three hundred. There's no coverage of the lead-up to this decision and contextualizing it, which I'm inclined to believe exists as at least Politico discussed it. I can go on, but generally, the article is so far from meeting quality standard that I cannot begin to consider the merit of the blurb. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol05:53, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's funny that the nomination could get a thousand supports, and yet no admin would ever post it. It's as if some people have forgotten that article quality matters. Kicking222 (talk) 21:45, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm doing my best to fill out the article, but it's very slow going on account that I don't read German, so parsing information is difficult (ah, trying to read sources in other languages, reminds me of my old days here), the recent closure of the daily print overwhelms results on account of recency bias, there's a WILD amount of music-history-related academic writing significantly referring to this paper, and the age of the paper means a lot of sources are print only and more difficult to find via Google (which is a mess these days anyway). I doubt I can get it in time to a place where I would feel comfortable supporting it, but it's improving slowly. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol03:04, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment on alt2. So, here's a bit of pedantry in the face of headlines. They have not been printing daily for 320 years. The daily print began in October 1813 (before that it was bi- then tri-weekly, especially visible at the Austrian National Library archives), so the daily print form is more like 210 years old. The newspaper itself has been overall publishing regularly in print for 320 years (save for a five-year gap over WW2). I don't know if the blurb should suggest that the newspaper has existed as a daily for 320 years. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol00:08, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. "One of the oldest" is not all that substantial a record, especially in an era where print newspapers continue to vanish, and given the paper wasn't always daily and will simply be less frequently printed going forward. DarkSide830 (talk) 05:26, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It was always daily since 1813. Transitioning from daily to monthly is a very big deal as that means the newspaper is no longer a means of staying up to date on the latest information. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, newspaper which had published announcements of Mozart debut etc. anx is a major part of our history will no longer publish. Major story. Kirill C1 (talk) 15:47, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(Posted) Bolsonaro barred from running for political office
Nominator's comments: Another supreme court case - however, this time, its from Brazil. The court barred Bolsonaro from participating in political office for his actions during the congressional attack in January. This is big news in Brazil, as it effectively removes Lula's big rival and leaves Bolsonaro side of Brazilian politics with no leader; Bolsonaro will almost certainly never regain power now. It's also somewhat historic. Considering we've posted the Trump impeachment after Jan 6, I think this is the perfect opportunity for the more anti-US-centrism portions of ITN to combat our systemic bias. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 18:27, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support largely due to the significance of barring a former president from public office, and given Bolsonaro's status as the main opposition figure in Brazil. However, saying Bolsonaro will not reattain his position in the future is CRYSTAL (and could have been suggested of Lula himself when he was previously embattled), and the magnitude of this ruling really does go well beyond the Trump impeachment. DarkSide830 (talk) 18:39, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Even if this ruling sticks, it would still enable Bolsonaro to run again in 8 years. He'd be 76 then, which is younger than Biden. And Brazil has other ways of arriving at a government too. It's all speculation with no immediate practical effect. Andrew🐉(talk) 19:18, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Are you saying that we shouldn't post him being barred from political office because he could just install himself as dictator instead? DecafPotato (talk) 02:42, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Coups, dictatorships and the like are quite common – see the current lead blurb and Ongoing. This is routine domestic politics which we see all over the world. Boris Johnson was censured and banned from Parliament recently. That was all over the news and is still making waves but we didn't even nominate it because he's not in power. In Bosnia, the Serb Republic is now refusing to recognise their Constitutional Court. So it goes ... Andrew🐉(talk) 07:15, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Barring someone from public office is not common. This court ruling is not speculation. It's an actual ruling. Can he attempt to regain power either legally or not legally? Sure. Trump tried to. But that's just crystal ball-ing. It's pure speculation to guess why Boris Johnson was not nominated. 331dot (talk) 10:33, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Machado was never a head of state (or government), same with Guatemala, the president holds power in Poland not the PM. These are non-issues that are being raised, if effective former power-holders are gettting convictions it can surely be discussed for inclusion on ITN. Gotitbro (talk) 11:46, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I was going to support, as obviously a final ruling on this should be ITN - but the only source in the article says that he's "expected to appeal the ruling to Brazil's Supreme Court". Too soon. Also, there's no mention of this in the article itself - only in the lead; so some improvement is necessary. Nfitz (talk) 20:04, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral — I agree with Nfitz, but the precedent set by Donald Trump's first indictment does not support the argument that contentions to indictments bar a mention from ITN. I, however, do not agree with the statement that Bolsonaro will almost certainly never regain power now. In any case, prudence suggests that ITN should wait for the Supreme Federal Court's decision. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)20:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - the idea that we should wait until X variable becomes apparent often times is just a way to set an exceptionally high standard for posting. Vanamonde93 (talk·contribs) brilliantly pointed out once that there's always somewhat of a catch 22 with this; the first nom gets opposed because "its too soon" and then the second one gets opposed because "its stale" or "we should have posted it when the first X occured." The noms for the Ohio train derailment (1 and 2) are an excellent example. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 21:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom and DarkSide. The former head of state being barred from contesting elections is eminently ITN-worthy. Plus we've been staring at Prigozhin's smirk for too long already. W. Tell DCCXLVI (talk to me!/c) 04:54, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support obviously a huge warning sign of yet another country going into democratic backsliding, if only they could be more like the us Daikido (talk) 07:28, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Conviction not indictments should be the rule and this is what we have here, of a former head of state and the effective opposition being barred from elections for years to come; the comments above are misleading, there is no appeal here this is the highest court in Brazil. That he will eventually return or there will somehow be a dictatorial takeover by Bolsanaro is hogwash and takes away from the immediate effect of this ruling from the highest court in Brazil. Comparing this to the censure and resignation of Johnson is facetious. Gotitbro (talk) 08:36, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There seems to be some confusion. According to DW the court making this ruling was the Tribunal Superior Eleitoral which is a special election court. Bolsonaro plans to appeal this to the Federal Supreme Court and so it's not a done deal. And Johnson is a former PM of a major country and the effect in that case was more immediate as it caused him to resign his seat. Speculation continues as it will in the case of Bolsonaro. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:26, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That does change things a bit, but I would still stand by my support, a subsequent acquittal should be posted (if this indeed is) but barring that this is still a conviction by a higher court of Brazil with "immediate" effect unless overturned. I think anyone can tell a miles difference apart between a mere resignation and a conviction barring electoral participation. Gotitbro (talk) 11:25, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Barring a former president of any country from running for office, even if temporarily, is consistent with the ITNR spirit. Target article looks ok, although an article on the court ruling itself could be a better target. Brandmeistertalk08:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support I often mention that real news in the Trump saga would be if he eventually gets barred from running for president. This story is a perfect equivalent.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 10:04, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is obviously not unprecedented as it's easy to find previous examples such as Lula and Collor. Brazilian politics is neither stable nor sedate and seems to be more of an IAR kinda place. As such, it's quite like Wikipedia and it's interesting that this nomination has attracted so many !votes that are so clearly wrong about basic facts. Has this nomination been posted somewhere else? Discord? Andrew🐉(talk) 14:30, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't forget to assume good faith. Why would you assume this nomination is only getting so much attention because of meatpuppetry? This nomination is getting so much attention because it's a huge story that's pretty hard to avoid if you're subscribed to any news feed. Vanilla Wizard 💙22:11, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional Support - Alt Blurb III is the most accurate as the actual ruling seems to be in reference to fraudulent activities carried out before, during, and after the election. The attack was the culmination, but not the primary issue being discussed in court, per various sources. The other blurbs may seemingly misrepresent the ruling. Schwinnspeed (talk) 13:30, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
These examples are politicians who were removed from office or sentenced to prison time, and they were blurbed for it too. It's not every year that we get even one story of that nature, it's not like this is such a normal occurrence that ITN would be too cluttered if we posted about it every time something like this happens (which we usually do, as was demonstrated by the examples you provided). Vanilla Wizard 💙22:08, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support For people who say that this type of stuff happens all the time, it's important to note that we're talking about Brazil here, a country with a large influence over other South American countries. Not to mention the huge population of Brazil. If somebody like Donald Trump was ever barred from taking office, we'd be supporting it, hence why I don't see the reason to oppose this. TwistedAxe[contact]17:19, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support If a recent former one-term U.S. president were to be judicially barred from office for his role in a similar insurrection and other similar attempts to undermine a democratic election, that would be very notable as well. Davey2116 (talk) 20:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Darkside. I am not particularly convinced by Andrew's rationale on this one - Brazil 40 years ago was undemocratic, therefore this ruling could be made moot if Brazil becomes a dictatorship again? That's not just WP:CRYSTAL, that's a non sequitur. Vanilla Wizard 💙22:01, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Posted General consensus to post due to its significance in the news now, independent of any future appeals or their results. AFAICS for the blurb, the court's ruling did not account for his alleged role in the congress attack.—Bagumba (talk) 11:58, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting oppose Since this can be appealed to Brazil's Supreme Court, this isn't the final decision. This would be notable enough to post once Brazil's Supreme Court makes its decision. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 02:01, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting oppose. The decision is not final yet and it's clearly a local Brazilian event. It has not even made it to the Supreme Court there. Are we going to post all Brazilian court decisions? --TadejMmy talk11:25, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support. Seems like the sort of topic we should be posting, clearly in the news and of encyclopedic relevance. — Amakuru (talk) 11:28, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: SCOTUS has just nixed Biden's student loan program. This is important given how much of an issue student loans are in this country and will have wide-reaching ramifications affecting tens of millions of people. For the people who will reflexively oppose stating "this wouldn't be posted if it was in another country," go nominate that foreign equivalent then. Systemic bias is about giving more to other parts of the world, not culling our part. Also, looking at these sources, I see Black Kite (talk·contribs) is getting that international coverage he's been clamoring for. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 15:57, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose These ridiculous US-centric nominations need to stop. Now we are into local school funding policy? Perhaps we should be restricting blurb nominations to one a week per user or something. This feels very WP:POINTy to me, given the lack of consensus below about the Supreme Court ruling to increase the number of white people at Harvard. Nfitz (talk) 16:04, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps we should be restricting blurb nominations to one a week per user or something.
Perhaps we should add on to that by forcing everyone to make at least one nom per week so that we don't create a class of serial voters who just complain and gripe all day about trivial nonsense and contributing to the decline of ITN? Again, read WP:ITNCUSA. If you want more global coverage, nominate stories from outside the United States. Again, systemic bias shall not be used as an excuse to limit coverage from the west. By the way, at the risk of crossing into WP:NOTFORUM territory, the AA-case would result in more AAs going to Harvard. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 16:17, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you should read WP:ITNCUSA - all it does is to point right back here, User:Knightoftheswords281; can you check these links before you type them from memory - as this isn't the first error (and no, I don't actually know what you meant to link). I fail to understand how having more Asian Americans has any impact on student loans. Are you implying there's a racial bias to loan distributions - I don't see this in the article. Nfitz (talk) 16:37, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ITNCUSA was supposed to link to the location portion of WP:ITNCDONT (but the anchors got removed), i.e:
Please do not oppose an item solely because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is generally unproductive.
As for this:
I fail to understand how having more Asian Americans has any impact on student loans. Are you implying there's a racial bias to loan distributions
The idea that contributors to Wikipedia should be restricted and sanctions for the horrible crime of...contributing to ITN too much, and having differing views on what should be posted..?
I can understand why people dislike the recent influx of US-centric nominations, and I do think there is some truth to it. But I don't think Knight is being in any way disruptive here. Good, important debates on the role of ITN and the role that America-centric politics have on it are being held, we should not shut that down. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 17:33, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There's plenty of financial news in other countries -- interest rates in the UK, Turkish currency woes, etc -- and this is more of the same. What I'm not understanding is why there's a flurry of US supreme court rulings just lately. Are they clearing their desk before summer vacation or what? Andrew🐉(talk) 16:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support As per my comment just now under the other nomination, I don’t think we have been overly US centric recently. This here was the top news in The Guardian (online) when it came out (they even had a live ticker!). Personally, I find the other ruling more noteworthy, but fine with this one too, or, even better, maybe a combined blurb with this, the Harvard ruling, and the Colorado ruling? Khuft (talk) 16:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, affects a tiny sliver of the people in one country, the only reason anyone has heard of it is that tiny sliver seems to be omnipresent in internet political discussions. Anyway, it only re-instates the situation as it has existed for decades, it doesn't break any new ground. Danthemankhan17:09, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, the only way this should be posted is as a part of the other SCOTUS case on affirmative action, since both deal with US college programs. But alone, this was a 99% expected result and not really that significant. --Masem (t) 17:12, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - the decision sucks, but it was expected and doesn’t really change anything significant, considering this was a program being piloted versus upending years of precedent. Approaching the point of a WP:SNOW close here as well. The Kip (talk) 17:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Other developed countries thinking that such abuse of the judiciary could never happen to them would do well to pay attention. Connor Behan (talk) 17:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Mixed - On one hand I dislike the argument of "America-centric" nominations. I think that there is naturally a WP:DUEWEIGHT on American affairs and politics due to a. The tremendous global influence that the USA has, where even minor local politics can affect geopolitics, and b. The fact that this is the English Wikipedia, and that there is naturally going to be an inclination to the largest source of news in English, American news (not that we should strive to be biased though).
On the other hand, I don't think we should post every major Supreme Court decision, especially ones like this that really only affect a short-term policy pushed by the Biden administration. In contrast, Affirmative Action is a highly contentious and controversial issue that has been at the forefront of American political debate since the 1960s, whetheras student loan forgiveness is a relatively recent development in the political landscape.
Oppose This was a dumb ruling, as typical of the current Supreme Court, but there isn't any real international significance given the program was fairly limited in scope. If it completely eliminated student loans, then I would have supported since student loans are one the biggest sources of debt in the U.S. And this is coming from someone who though the affirmative action ruling should have been posted. Mount Patagonia (talk • contributions) 17:45, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose no way. No one really cares about this outside US. I learn more about SCOTUS decisions from Wikipedia than from the news. Something is wrong. _-_Alsor (talk)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article:Skyline (Honolulu) (talk·history·tag) Blurb: In the United States, the Honolulu Skyline (train pictured) opens, the first new American metro rail system in over 30 years. (Post) Alternative blurb: In the United States, a metro system opens in Honolulu, Hawaii, the first new urban rail system in over 30 years. Credits:
Nominator's comments: Okay okay okay okay, hear me out on this one. I know that a lot of people are going to instantly dismiss this for ITN, but I do think it should be honestly considered for nomination. First of all, this is the first new American metro system to open in the last 30 years (if you don't count the Tren Urbano in San Juan, Puerto Rico, which still opened 20 years ago). Second, it is the only rail system in the entire history of Hawaii. Honestly, I think we have posted blurbs for news events a lot less significant than this. Even if this doesn't meet the bar neccesary to be posted, I still think that new infrastructure megaprojects should be posted. As an example, a new American high speed rail line, the opening of High Speed 2 in the UK, or the brand new intercity rail system constructed in El Salvador. Possibly even the Grand Paris Express. Maybe not though. If this isn't what ITN is for then I'll be on my merry way! PrecariousWorlds (talk) 15:52, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support in principle, but wait until it opens, and article is updated. A significant advance, and lots of international coverage of this stalled project over the years. Nfitz (talk) 16:06, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - firstly, this is a great chance to get a GA on ITN. Secondly, I'd say this is a pretty big landmark in America's embracement of public transport (like you said, the first new metro in the U.S in three decades). Thirdly, and I hate to invoke OTHERSTUFFEXISTS-esque arguments, but I'd say that this frankly affects a lot more people than say the barbeque restaurant story that's been on ITN for the past week (still number two btw despite that); this is mainly directed against anyone denouncing this as "too regional." - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 16:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'm willing to consider this but it has to be in-the-news. However no sources are listed in the nomination and I'm not seeing much mainstream news coverage. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:31, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Huh, support. I follow the rationale of PrecariousWorlds, bein' a first system to be opened in dozens of years and all, but this is hardly world news... heck, I wouldn't have known about this if it weren't for ITN/C! --Ouro (blah blah) 16:56, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for multiple reasons. Firstly, this is a rapid transit system in a city with barely one million people in its metropolitan area. Three other systems were opened this year, including the Lagos Metro that serves the largest city in Africa, and six others are planned to begin operation this year (of all ten, only Gebze has lower population). Secondly, it’s true that we post large infrastructure projects from time to time. For instance, last year we posted the opening of the 1915 Çanakkale Bridge, which is the longest suspension bridge in the world and connects two continents. Thirdly, as pointed out by Andrew above, this news doesn’t really receive mainstream coverage.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not a big deal. Even if we rule that out, we’re left with a total of eight other metro systems to begin operation this year, with seven of them serving larger cities. I fail to get what’s the posting rationale here. What makes Honolulu a more important city?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 17:15, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't looked at the Ankara metro article, but the topic has certainly received enough coverage here for well over a decade. If they ever do open it, I can see it might be blurbable. Looking at Gebze Metro the article is but a stub, for quite a tiny system with only 4,800 riders a day projected (less than your average short urban bus route), and no future work beyond the initial section . The Honolulu system has a second stage under construction since 2016, with commitments for further sections, and a projected ridership of 85,000; that's almost 20 times larger than Gebze. What are the other 6 metros that have opened (though I'd argue that if planned opening of the Réseau express métropolitain in Montreal, for the first phase of a 67-km, 26-station line projected for 190,000 a day (the entire line is already under construction). Nfitz (talk) 18:01, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose it’s a nomination made in good faith, but I don’t see how it’s more relevant than the Turkmenistan nomination below that’s being shot down at this moment. Any tertiary Chinese city has a similar MRT system running by now, and we didn’t post any of them. Khuft (talk) 17:15, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Kiril. While likely a boon to Hawaii residents, this is not a novel transit design or the like. And the lack of coverage is a bit worrisome. --Masem (t) 17:17, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose and SNOW Of little importance even on a national level, which is supported by the absolutely paltry amount of news coverage. I'm all for posting big infrastructure projects, but this isn't even close. -- Kicking222 (talk) 18:37, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Opening of train lines is not significant enough to warrant ITN posting, especially when the country in which the train line was opened has other train lines in existence. Chrisclear (talk) 19:38, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: The usual problems with an actor's biog means we'll have to do some work on citations etc to get it up to speed before it can go up. (Addendum: This is for an RD only: I oppose a blurb, despite the fact I'd love to see one). - SchroCat (talk) 14:19, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree - well-known Hollywood actor, highly-awarded but did not do much to have a legacy or impact outside the works he was in. (I do worry we are going to get the Carrie Fisher/Betty White rush of "support blurbs" based on the popularity and famousness of the person and best to establish now what we would need to see for a blurb). Masem (t) 15:01, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But we don't use number of awards or films as any standard for a RD blurb. We need demonstration of their greatness, impact, and legacy on their field, which doesn't come directly from awards or role-count. Masem (t) 15:26, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb. No-brainer for blurb - Oscar winner, six decades career, Hollywood legend, been in classic films such as Catch-22, and they, and he, are in world film history. After winning sort of career Oscar in 2006, he did not stop and made great many films, for some of which he may be remembered mostly, and reaped awards too. Kirill C1 (talk) 15:07, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Where's the legacy or impact, then? Having a huge filmography is not a reason for a blurb. RD Blurbs are supposed to be exceptional, and there are many other living actors that have had far more an impact on the field than Arkin. Masem (t) 15:10, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb I enjoyed his work, especially in Little Miss Sunshine and Argo, but just because he's more of a household name than many recent deaths doesn't mean he should have a blurb. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD on principle, oppose blurb. Article needs a bit of sourcing work. Regarding the blurb, Arkin was an accomplished actor but was not exceptionally impactful. Mooonswimmer15:30, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb - There's a lot of more widely known actors who haven't been blurbed. Arkin is hardly a household name, even in most English-speaking countries. (support RD of course - and looks ready - why wait?) Nfitz (talk) 16:09, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb so, we don’t post Nobel or Pulitzer Prize winning novelists, but any random actor is worthy of a blurb? Are we becoming Vogue? Sarcasm aside: how has he transformed cinema, since that’s the yardstick we would use for actors? I fail to see it.Khuft (talk) 17:05, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Subject was not at a level that would justify one. I note that we declined to blurb far more consequential figures in the field (Kirk Douglas and Olivia de Havilland). Not Ready for RD. Article is in rough shape for referencing and is going to need a lot of work before it can be posted. I have orange tagged the article because adding CNs would basically involve carpet bombing the page. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:13, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose RD on quality as there’s still citation work to be done. Oppose blurb - he was a great actor, but simply not transformative enough. The Kip (talk) 17:22, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb, support RD - Again, I don't think giving a recent death a blurb should be some award for a notable individual. Recent deaths should only be blurbed if they cause a widespread international reaction with tangible long-term effect, or if they're tired to a conventional news story (like the Titanic sub disaster). PrecariousWorlds (talk) 17:37, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Agreeing with Ad Orientem, if Douglas and de Havilland did not get blurbed this clearly does not pass muster. Also what is with the rush to add blurbs for RDs even where the noms are not for them (or against them) especially when quality issues exist. Gotitbro (talk) 18:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Only a couple of weeks ago, we did not post Glenda Jackson who won the Best Actress Oscar twice, whereas Arkin has one Oscar for a supporting role. Not posting Jackson has set a bar here, and posting Arkin would be nonsensical. Black Kite (talk)19:04, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
HiLo has a point about one thing, and that's that we seem to inevitably have blurbs proposed for famous Hollywood actors. I don't know what that says about the industry in relation to human culture. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)14:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What it says, sadly, is most people propose blurbs for those that are famous above those that are truly impactful persons. I mean, I was floored to see so many oppose on Goodenough because such things as "he isn't a household name", which was especially weird coming from certain persons who frequently vote "Support" on death blurbs, and certain persons who suggest that ITN should guide people to pages they may wish to navigate to (An important person whose name is not universally known is a great candidate for such treatment!). Truthfully I think we have lost the plot on what death blurbs should be for. DarkSide830 (talk) 04:08, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, I think the filmography is not quite fully sourced, and that may be this item's only significant obstacle to posting. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)14:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Some CN tags/additional citations might still need to be added as there are sentences without any? There was an overall citation needed tag on the article but it seemed vague. If someone adds CN tags, I and other editors might be able to find more sources if it's pinpointed where they are needed. 2001:BB6:4E52:7D00:5CE6:B6E2:4E06:219B (talk) 16:36, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb, oppose RD on quality For someone's death to be mentioned in ITN, they need to be very well-known, which doesn't seem to be the case here. I'd consider ITN deaths to be reserved only for the most known people, and whilst Alan was without a doubt a famous man, I wouldn't say it's justified to post him on ITN. However, strong support for RD once the orange sourcing tags are fixed. TwistedAxe[contact]12:16, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It's been several days now and I have to say that the overall article quality, especially referencing, remains quite poor. At this point I am less than sanguine that we will be able to post it to RD. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:23, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I and another editor have been working on this page for the last couple of days, filling in CN tags. All have now been filled in. So I reopened this. I hope that's okay? If not, please revert - but I request that another editor reopen it after reviewing the article. Note that the Filmography section might need more citations before it can be marked as Ready. Thank you. 2001:BB6:4E52:7D00:5CE6:B6E2:4E06:219B (talk) 09:18, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update The Filmography section should be fully sourced now. Please note another editor sourced many of the films to BFI, which looks fine to me - but if this single source being used so much is a problem, note that these films are also covered by the TVGuide ref and the Washington Post filmography as well. So these can be supplemented with these refs already used elsewhere in the section - but I didn't do that yet unless it's requested. Finally, a few theater roles need to be cited and that's it as far as I can see anyway. 2001:BB6:4E52:7D00:5CE6:B6E2:4E06:219B (talk) 10:36, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Another update - Theater section and Bibliography now sourced and everything else should be fully sourced now. Will mark this as Ready now but if any editor has a problem with that please revert. If there is any issue with any references, let me know and I'll fix them, but they should all be good. 2001:BB6:4E52:7D00:5CE6:B6E2:4E06:219B (talk) 10:48, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Posted to RD - a spotcheck of the sources demonstrated verifiability (I replaced a couple, though). Good work bringing it up to par. Anarchyte (talk) 06:37, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(Attention needed) Discovery of Neutrinos within the Milky Way
Nominator's comments: Another scientific discovery. This one regards neutrinos, small, so-called "ghost particles" at the subatomic level. They're called ghostly because they're so small that even though Earth gets bombarded by them, we haven't been able to detect them - until now. The detection of neutrinos is major because it allows us for the first time to view and understand the Milky Way in something other than light. They've even produced images of the whole thing that you can see in the above sources and is being hailed as the start of neutrino astronomy. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 03:04, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose if the 2nd blurb is correct, this is a good accomplishment but it is definitely not that a certain observatory discovering nuetrinos for the first time (there are several other places on earth created to do that too, that I even remember from Cosmos [2])). And just by checking google scholar, this is continuous from other nuetrino observatories to understand the formation of galaxies and the universe. --Masem (t) 04:06, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
COMMENT - none of the blurbs state that this is the first discovery of neutrinos ever; just the first detection of them within our galaxies, which hadn't occurred before. All prior neutrino discoveries were of ones outside our galaxy. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 04:46, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Alt Blurb 2, the news is not about the detection of neutrinos but of the mapping of our galaxy with them. A scientist called the achievement "an entirely new view of our galaxy—one that had only been hinted at before". Alexcalamaro (talk) 05:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the Science article, there's been no mapping outside of identifying that a higher proportion of neutrinos are emitted by the center of the Milky Way. It implies mapping could be done, but they have not created an actual map in this sense. Masem (t) 13:02, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support The idea of using glacial ice to detect neutrinos is cool! As ice is disappearing, it's good to make the most of it. Andrew🐉(talk) 07:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose neutrinos were first detected decades ago, and it's inevitable that some of those neutrinos originate from the Milky Way given how many neutrinos there are (heck, some of those neutrinos originate from the lab, see beta decay). What appears to be new here is that ICECUBE researchers have mapped the neutrinos of the Milky Way, which is interesting for neutrino astronomers, but not immediately impactful for everyone else (including other astronomers). Banedon (talk) 08:13, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support alt blurb 2, as the other two are inaccurate. And to clarify, they're mostly non-interacting not because they're smol (photons are lighter), but because they're neutral, as foretold by their name. Folly Mox (talk) 13:48, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Neutrino-detection's HARD, that should count for something. ~100,000/nanosecond fly thru a man but median distance till interaction is 6,000,000,000,000 miles of solid lead! The only reason neutrino astronomy started in '87 is a star exploded so strongly there was more energy/m² @.4 lightyears than hugging an H-bomb and 99% of the megatons went into spamming ~10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 high-energy neutrinos. Even in '87 only 1 neutrino interacting was enough to detect yet no other exploding star has been detected by neutrinos. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:50, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We're not saying its hard, just that this is not the first time it has happened or the like. That there seems to be a larger amount of neutrons from the galactic center is interesting but I dont think the astrophysics breakthrough of note. Masem (t) 17:14, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's a sign of improving human ability to detect such things. In order to detect this it took $279 million of South Pole infrastructure made of 1+ cubic kilometers of detectors (thousands of them) up to kilometers deep and watching since 2005-10 (it took over 5 years to build). Which adds a little interest along with making the first galaxy "map" in one of the final frontiers of wave/particle detection hardness. So much of ~postwar astronomy has been trying to see what's behind galactic dust (most of the galaxy's stars are blocked by it), first with the lowest tech non-visible light to astroimage then progressively harder and less interacting rays/waves. Cosmic ray telescopes were also invented to learn more but they're deflected by not being electromagnetically neutral so we don't know their emission direction and even the ghostly cosmic gravitational wave background was detected before this (the pulsar timing thing nominated below). The cosmic neutrino background is even more of a "final frontier of hard-to-see" but it's so low energy it's almost hopeless, there's no point waiting for that one. However if neutrino telescopes don't get significantly bigger that galaxy pic would get sharper so slowly there isn't really a point where it becomes news. I think they only fly the hard drives out of the South Pole once a year so every year there could be an ever so slightly improved version. That pixel has a neutrino now. Add another blob!!! Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:19, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment maybe I'm too stupid to read, but is this news reflected in any of the bolded articles? Can't find it referenced under IceCube Neutrino Observatory at all, and only with one sentence under neutrino. If more info was provided in these articles - more than a sentence, ideally a paragraph explaining what has been discovered and why it is significant - I could support, but right now I'm at a loss at understanding what the news actually means. Khuft (talk) 20:47, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also that section says "The galactic core of the Milky Way is fully obscured by dense gas and numerous bright objects. Neutrinos produced in the galactic core might be measurable by Earth-based neutrino telescopes" and "Neutrinos are also useful for probing astrophysical sources beyond the Solar System because they are the only known particles that are not significantly attenuated by their travel through the interstellar medium" but true it's only about a sentence of new info. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:46, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: This Mexican politician just got assassinated today. The article was freshly created (though he had enough coverage to have an article beforehand), and need serious expansion. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 00:54, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Turkmenistan just inaugurated their first smart city, in honor of their former president, who amassed a cult of personality during his reign. The project costed nearly US$8 billion. Its not every day that you see a city of close to 70 thousand open.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Knightoftheswords281 (talk • contribs) 00:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support It's in the news but the "smart city" hype should be dropped from the blurb as its advanced technology seems to be elevators (lifts) and traffic lights which are long familiar elsewhere. I like that all the apartment blocks have seven floors because that's lucky. Andrew🐉(talk) 07:36, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Smart City" is more than just installing lifts and lights - it is about the interconnectiveness of all those devices with central computers to monitor and manage every aspect of the city (eg Internet of Things, etc.) That is the advanced technology that is at the center of the discussion here. Masem (t) 15:04, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The article doesn't indicate that this city has anything especially advanced. The features listed such as audible traffic lights and textured pedestrian tiles have been standard here in London for years. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:52, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Searching a bit I found this [3] from the Turkmenistan government that explains more. Having had to learn up on Copenhagen's smart city in the past, Arkadag is definitely not as overwhelming as a smart city as Copenhagen's, but that's not so say that its just streetlights and the like. The news articles covering this are a bit weak in the extensiveness of the program. Masem (t) 17:21, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That government article boasts that "A new 123 Service has also been put into operation in the city of Arkadag for the first time. This is a single call number for the relevant operational services, including gas and fire safety, ambulance. Thus, the activity of the 123 Service is aimed at the prompt provision of necessary assistance and prevention of emergency situations." London pioneered this idea in 1937. The US adopted their equivalent in 1968. Andrew🐉(talk) 22:10, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I'm actually struggling to find a list of "smart cities" based on the article definition. Maybe someone could provide some context for that? --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)12:23, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You can't really have a city without technological infrastructure to support the concentration of people. For example, ancient Rome had apartments, aquaducts, baths, roads and more. I get the impression that Turkmenistan is just catching up. And don't get me started on "smart motorways"... Andrew🐉(talk) 12:39, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you know what "smart homes" are, a "smart city" extends that to all operations of a city. Power, communications, traffic, etc., all monitored, and where appropriate, controlled by advanced computer systems to react quickly to changes. But as I've discussed above, there's degrees to how much this can be implemented. Masem (t) 17:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Surely we've lost the lead here. "Smart City" is completely BS obviously - given many of the aspects discussed have been routine for some time with large new urban developments. Looking at the details, this isn't so much a city, as a suburb of Ashgabat, built adjacent and attached to existing urbanized areas. I'd have thought the key story would have been that the Arkadag was made the new capital of Ahal Region - but that happened last year, by which point people were already living there; it was also named last year. Nfitz (talk) 14:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Not notable enough, just because some city got inaugurated, doesn't mean it is ITN material, and "Smart City" has nothing to do with this, there has been a lot of Smart cities before. Editor 5426387 (talk) 21:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article:2023 Canadian wildfires (talk·history·tag) Blurb: Smoke caused by wildfires in Canada ressurges across the Eastern U.S sparking air quality alerts and warnings (Post) News source(s):CBSVoxBBCCNN Credits:
Nominator's comments: As I’ve put above a CNN source, it clearly states the notability of the topic, over 120-130 million Americans or any people in general are under air quality alerts across the U.S which have effected several huge cities including the country’s own capital, and has stretched from Illinois and New York down to Florida and Georgia.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:183:4081:FEA0:D1CE:9FD9:3FEC:E0BC (talk • contribs) 04:48, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Unfortunately, this has the distinct look of US-centrism. Presumably the fires have been affecting Canada and Canadians for many weeks non-stop, but only now that they are sending smoke to the US again does it get nominated. Even now, the impact on Canada isn't mentioned at all! HiLo48 (talk) 05:21, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Adding to my claim, Canadian wildfires have caused smoke in Ontario and Quebec, wildfires have spread several miles etc, they are heavily know across the area. But it’s rare to see a third of a country which is not only massive but with large population have such an outbreak of air deterioration and affect on the population for weeks and possibly years to come. 2601:183:4081:FEA0:D1CE:9FD9:3FEC:E0BC (talk) 05:45, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Air quality issues are common in many parts of the world – see haze. This seems to be a new normal for some parts of North America but so it goes. It's called climate change and is ongoing everywhere. Andrew🐉(talk) 07:41, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Smoke is being given an importance that it does not have. If there is fire, there is smoke. No victims nor major incidents reported. And per Andrew, he’s totally right. _-_Alsor (talk) 09:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I don't understand this nomination. The smoke never went away - and the fires have been continuously heavily reported. All that's changed is the wind direction such that it's blowing over a specific over-represented country. Perhaps the wildfires (not the smoke) should be ongoing. Nfitz (talk) 14:17, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The Tatmadaw carries out an air strike in the Sagaing Region, Myanmar killing at least ten civilians and injuring more than a dozen others, according to local officials and eyewitnesses. Thirteen homes are also destroyed according to officials. (CNN)
The United States Department of Defense says it has assessed that the Chinese balloon spotted over the United States and alleged to be a spy balloon did not collect information over the United States. (The Guardian)
Rioters set fires across several neighborhoods in Cayenne, French Guiana, and a government employee is killed by a stray bullet. PrefectThierry Queffelec announces the suspension of the city's public transportation system and a temporary ban on the sale of gasoline at night. (ABC News)
In a 6–3 decision, the U.S. Supreme Court rules that race can no longer be considered a factor in university admissions, effectively ending affirmative action in higher learning. However, the court also rules that race considerations are still permitted for military academy admissions. (CBS News)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Weak oppose on quality Could we get some ISBNs or citations for the bibliography at the end of the article?Support Article's quality is well in regards to sourcing and length. Well done to Indefensible to fixing the issues brought up quickly. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800022:06, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support Article's quality is fine enough for ITNRD. Interesting note that was missed in a potential nomcmt is that this woman was the older sister of MLK Jr. Just a thought. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800022:10, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Weak support — I reluctantly support this nomination, but solely on the basis that universities in the United States are attended by students around the world, thus meeting an international impact. I am not entirely sold. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)14:49, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
+1 on NOTFORUM. @Davey2116, lots of us have opinions about the ruling, but it's not helpful to provide them here. What's relevant is the significance of the decision, not the merit or lack thereof. {{u|Sdkb}}talk16:21, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There was recently a discussion about discretionary sanctions for ITN, and it was determined that aspects already covered by sanctions (such as post-1992 American Politics) are covered here as well. So any uninvolved admin can issue a sanction (like a week-long page ban, for example) to anyone that engages in forum-like behavior here. Obviously I'd rather if this didn't happen, but it is an option if it gets bad. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:49, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think we shouldn't be too harsh. I've seen a lot of people acting in Good Faith but just not realising the purpose of these pages.
For example, 'Talk' pages on Wikipedia articles are often mistaken for forums to discuss said articles. We should be a little lenient, but yeah I wouldn't like anyone to insert their personal beliefs into ITN, or even let their politics influence their votes. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 15:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. First of all, this is not "striking down affirmative action". This case applies simply to how affirmative action applies to college admissions. Just a point of mention is all. DarkSide830 (talk) 15:07, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment an explanation on what affirmative action actually means might be helpful to the blurb. One can also understand it in the way that gender equality has won a case.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 16:02, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Affirmative Action is an incredibly contentious issue that has been at the forefront of American public debate since the 1960s (as evident by the comments below). Having it overturned is a pretty big deal. I also find it likely that this will significantly impact American politics in the future. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 21:09, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - per comments, like those by @ElijahPepe, noting that this impacts major universities that are attended by students from around the world. Definitely meets the criteria for inclusion on the home page. Glman99 (talk) 01:07, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It means that if a Black or Brown person and an Asian or White person are applying to a university and are so similar it's the most astounding coincidence in the history of Earth (all four parents came from the same country, the applicants have same sex, gender, age, orientation, religion, cis or trans status, dietary habits, criminal record, socioeconomic class and need for a full or partial scholarship to pay, whether they need THEIR scholarship or already have what they need, disability and medical condition status i.e. none or both diabetic, same personality, hobbies, interests, languages spoken and fluency levels thereof, similar biographies, same level of essay-writing skill and interest in sports and which ones, same gaming the system skill in both applications, visits, interviews etc, both took SAT and no other test, same number of siblings and birth order and skill at each sport and musical instrument, have the same school/club/job/volunteering and awards history for everything, same chess rating; same average, skew, peakiness and standard deviation of their face and body hotness in a scale from 1 to 10 (I don't know if it still happens but the finger on the scale has been the lady making the decisions thinking he's cute), same language(s) spoken and fluency levels, same citizenship(s) and nationalit(ies) held, similar lives, both born and grew up in Park Slope neighborhood of Brooklyn (NYC) to carbon copy parents, similar places on the spectrums for extroversion-introversion, conscientiousness, open to exprerienceness, agreeableness, neuroticism, autisticness and politics spectrums, both want to double major in paleontology and anthropology with a concentration in dinosaurs and minor in the most obscure thing they have, both families have never been to college, heck have their teachers be exactly the same since preschool but the White or Asian has slightly higher grades and test scores (a Scholastic Admission test of 2150 while the other person has a score of 2100) then the White or Asian probably won't get into Harvard and definitely won't if only one of them got in. Unless the Black or Brown person is from war-torn impoverished Sri Lanka then she won't get in for sure if she and her parents changed their names to Smith and put race as Asian (as is usual for Subcontinent-Americans) and didn't send their photos or let them know or suspect in any other way that they're "more minorityish" than the other girl cause she has the lower scores and grades. And if the White person is Jewish and doesn't otherwise have more minorityness than the other person they won't get in even though Harvard and other good schools all have a long history of discrimination against Jewish people. Like explicit quotas till about the 1960s. You can get into Harvard with as little as about an 1800 by being Black and not too boring or similar to any other person who'll attend at the same time as you. Also by being better at football, basketball or rowing than the weakest player on the team, 1800 and willing to play 4 seasons, you don't even have to be any kind of minority or avoid being unlucky enough to have too similar of a personality to too many other students or have any other hobby, award etc to make you more interesting. Possibly even just being better than the weakest player on any one of their many sports teams and >1800 test score and wanting to play 4 seasons and not being convicted felon is guaranteed entry. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:21, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you needed to list that many qualities. In summary, it means that minorities have more opportunities: a higher chance of getting into college in this context. Since part of ITN's purpose is to promote good (as in quality, not the rating) articles and a link is provided, I don't think explaining it would be needed. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Although the impact of the decision will be acute mainly at elite institutions, those institutions are important given their role in society. The U.S. is a large country, so for an event of this significance, I would not buy opposition arguments based on lack of international impact. {{u|Sdkb}}talk16:24, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also the UNC case artucle needs to be brought into this one as it was decided by the same slip opinion. The only reason the two cases are not consolidated is due to Jackson's refusal on the Harvard case. So there is an article quality issue too.
Also also, I would challenge the claims re I ternational students at these schools. AA was always about American residents and the biases of those races. Schools are still limited in how many international students via visa counts. So I really don't think that angle makes sense here. Masem (t) 17:27, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Universities in the United States were usually attended by students around the world, and given the landmark change, this would warrant ITN due to its effect on students worldwide. Editor 5426387 (talk) 17:05, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support alt 2 since 1. there were two decisions, one of them (the case linked, actually) 6–2 and 2. it feels a lot more direct. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:29, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment alt3 is wrong. The ruling basically says using race as part of admissions is unconstitional, not about favoring minorities (though that is the practical effect of AA). Just change "favoring minorities" to "using race-based stanards". --Masem (t) 18:01, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Question Does this apply to cases in which students, who don’t have enough preparation, are admitted just because their parents have donated the university buildings?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:07, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support when article looks good alternative blurb i'd like to propose:
In a 6–3 decision, the United States Supreme Court (justices pictured) determines considering race in college admissions is unconstitutional.
Note not using the phrase "affirmative action", using the phrase "in college admissions". I decided to exclude "overturning Grutter v Bollinger' but you may want to keep it in, your call. QueensanditsCrazy (talk) 18:49, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, In a 6–3 decision, the United States Supreme Court (justices pictured) determines that considering race in college admissions is unconstitutional.QueensanditsCrazy (talk) 18:50, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support with comment: The court didn't explicitly overturn Grutter, therefore the blurb should not mention Grutter at all. Edge3 (talk) 18:54, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I am really sure that not each and every SCOTUS resolution deserves our attention. In fact, their overall interest and impact is usually minimal, with very few exceptions. In this case, it is another particularly specific issue that affects only a part of the American population. Oh, European, Asian, Latin American, African and Oceanic universities are also attended by students from all over the world. I think that was pretty obvious. _-_Alsor (talk) 18:55, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support ALT4 Case is of significance both domestically (obvious) and internationally (given the many international students in US institutions), and far more so than the independent state legislature case the other day. The Kip (talk) 19:40, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just as another wrench, tomorrow is 99.99% certain we will know the result of the challenge on student loan forgiveness, which is a more immediate issue to many. I would think ahead that we might be able to have one blurb support both, since all the cases are dealing with college issues. But I would wait to see what happens tomorrow. --Masem (t) 19:50, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is really local. And not particularly relevant as few universities, even in that country, still use such systems; few colleges too I'd think. Roe vs Wade is certainly big, as would be something like tossing out the 2nd amendment, or the 13th amendment. I really don't see such nominations for most countries (the UK being the exception), other than the very biggest cases - even in very large countries. Nfitz (talk) 20:27, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Yes, it's a major court decision in the US. But major court decisions are handed down all the time all over the world. We almost never post them. FWIW, I supported the overturning of Roe being posted. But I think that was on a much higher level of significance. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:23, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. As per the above: this decision will have significant consequences regarding race relations in the US, and it is also of international significance due to the US leading role and international students. The article is fine too. --TadejMmy talk00:10, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I asked above User:TadejM, but no one answered. How does this effect international students? I see no mention of international students that in the ruling, though it does mention Webster's Third New International Dictionary, which Gorsuch believes is some kind of precedent for constitutional law. Perhaps this would be suitable for a "Did you know that a USA supreme court justice believes that a dictionary is a legal text?". Nfitz (talk) 15:24, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not... Oppose an item solely because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is generally unproductive. -- RockstoneSend me a message!03:42, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong article. This blurb should link to Students for Fair Admissions v. University of North Carolina instead since that is the "main" case where all 9 justices participated. The Harvard case simply follows the decision of the UNC case with Jackson not able to participate. So either the UNC article should be linked or both cases should be treated with at least equal weight. 18.29.64.10 (talk) 02:05, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Supreme Court considers the Harvard case as the leading one, the UNC folded up within it. That's not our decision to change. Its why we shouldn't try to get into the details of the vote in this blurb because its complex. Masem (t) 04:09, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not... Oppose an item solely because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is generally unproductive.The Kip (talk) 04:02, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You clearly cannot read!!!! My opposition is NOT because the event is only relating to a single country. It's because it's about one PARTICULAR country, the USA!!!! I simply cannot imagine this getting any support at all if it happened in any other country. It's pure and blatant US-centrism. Would you support a similar event in Australia? HiLo48 (talk) 04:23, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe. It's hard to provide any context unless someone nominates a similar event in another country. Someone's lack of nominating events doesn't justify the screaming and shouting and exclamation marks, however entertaining they may be. Sometimes I wonder if we need WP:RFCU back. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)12:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think they were referring to RFC/U, which according to the dab page was some sort of RfC on user conduct without any consequences. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:41, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My opposition is NOT because the event is only relating to a single country. It's because it's about one PARTICULAR country, the USA!!!!
That is clearly an example of assuming bad faith. My simple point is that I wouldn't waste my time nominating an equivalent event in my country, or almost any other country, for one reason. It would get no support. That's being realistic, not anti-American. HiLo48 (talk) 22:52, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies. There have been people posting here who have outright said that they do not want to see American stories on ITN and that they have an anti-American bias. I should not have assumed that you were one of them. -- RockstoneSend me a message!01:25, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If people read my position carefully, they will see that I am actually asking for the US to be treated the same as every other country. HiLo48 (talk) 01:35, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If they indeed have the exact same opinion as Chrisclear below, then they meant that they believe the only chance this story can succeed comes from the fact that it's from the USA. Which I still need to see some more evidence to believe (that this wouldn't pass if it wasn't from the USA). Aaron Liu (talk) 23:48, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot prove a negative. Simple logic says that I cannot prove that I have not nominated equivalent items from my country. That's a silly demand. I admit my claim is a little speculative, but you could easily disprove it by listing all the examples where equivalent items from other countries HAVE been posted. HiLo48 (talk) 01:33, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You don't have to nominate them, as long as you know a couple blurbs that didn't get posted it would count. I've not been around so I don't know, and if I don't know evidence proving it I should be safe to assume that it does not exist. However, I'd like to know how you came to form that thought. Aaron Liu (talk) 01:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You are missing my point. I don't nominate such things because, firstly, I believe it's inappropriate to do so, and secondly, they would have no chance of being posted. I suspect most non-Americans feel the same way. HiLo48 (talk) 01:55, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
However, we also don't want to be US Justical System centric. That's a systematic bias of the media sourcing we have. That part of ITN has to be used in balance. Masem (t) 04:07, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And that's so, but I think it's still okay to nominate these types of stories. There's nothing wrong with a discussion, and if U.S. media centrism is a factor, that should be weighed in. In my opinion, the fact that this affects a lot of young or college-age people in the country (remember that the "minority" races actually represent a large cross-section of the population) means that it is at least worth a discussion. Is it ultimately notable? It's hard to say yet... that's the problem with these types of cases. Sometimes they merely open the door to noteworthy events in the future. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)12:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And that's so, but I think it's still okay to nominate these types of stories.
I'm still wondering what you mean by uplift and "our part of the world". Uplift is a rarely used word, and has many meanings. Also, I don't see opposing the stories from the west in particular - I've opposed stories from Europe and Asia as well. I assumed that by UPLIFT, you are trying to bring stuff up to the USA's level; which on one hand may be an AGF issue - but your pronoun use is concerning as it appears that you keep using "we" to refer to the USA - and not the normal meaning of us here. And your commment the other day while nominating yet another quickly-closed USA supreme court ITN, was that we should ignore USA-centrism concerns because "considering how much of the global system is determined by America and these days its incumbent federal government, I'd say that this is somewhat relevant"; which if was about ending democracy would be valid - but it was about some very wonkish legal disagreement about election management. I'm not sure how any of this is WP:NOTFORUM - I don't see us chatting about the pros and cons of affirmative action (which I'd think would we'd be clearer and more universal term positive discrimination, lest it be confused with some religious group). Nfitz (talk) 20:36, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose all hooks. Firstly, not a 6-3 decision in Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard, which is the linked article; Jackson was recused from that case, so it was 6-2 with respect to that case with Jackson abstaining. It's very specifically about race-based preferences, so "affirmative action" is a bit too broad (it doesn't ban other sorts of affirmative action., such as income-based). It also didn't overturn prior decisions explicitly, so... we can't use that in a hook. I'm on the fence notability-wise. — Red-tailed hawk(nest)03:17, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support as it has wide-ranging impacts across the United States. For those saying that it's internal to the US, that is irrelevant, as ITN's rules clearly preclude using that as a reason. Please come up with a better argument than that. --RockstoneSend me a message!03:41, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You are misrepresenting the rule. The problem here, as at least two of us have already clearly pointed out, is that such a change in any other country would NOT even be nominated here. HiLo48 (talk) 10:23, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as the scope of this decision seems to cover only race, while positive discrimination may be based on many other factors (e.g. gender, nationality, wealth etc.). I agree that race-based discrimination is an important topic in the United States, but this won't solve the problem that rich children can be easily admitted because their parents have donated the university buildings (wealth-based discrimination).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 07:20, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's notable for sure but not enough to go on the main page because of the limited scope. I planned to support the original nomination because it referred to positive discrimination in general, but the further discussion revealed that it only relates to a specific form.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 12:29, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This would be a good recommendation for Ameripedia, but this is a global encyclopaedia. I highly doubt this story would be published in ITN if it related to universities in New Zealand. Therefore for the sake of consistency and to avoid such bias, this story should not be published. Chrisclear (talk) 09:57, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you want a Kiwi-equivalent court case to go on ITN, then nominate it. Why are people so frightened about standing up and nominating and instead cower under the fear of "it won't be posted!" Make an effort. Like I stated above, Systemic bias is about uplifting the rest of the world, not culling our part of the world. We ought to combat our systemic bias via raising the undercovered world to our level, not destroying ourselves to bring us to their level. In this case, doing that would just mean ITN would have bi-yearly updates. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 15:36, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But I don't want to nominate a Kiwi court case, because there isn't one worthy of ITN publication for a global audience, just as this one is not worthy for a global audience. Chrisclear (talk) 19:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So what you're actually saying is you believe that this story only has its chance to succeed because it's from the USA? Like above I need some examples to believe that. Aaron Liu (talk) 23:46, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's highly dubious that a similar story relating to New Zealand would be published. Regarding examples, as HiLo48 said above (1) I cannot prove a negative, (2) I (and probably other editors outside the US as well) don't nominate stories like this one that are inappropriate for a global audience and (3) Even if I did nominate a similar item that was inappropriate for a global audience, it would have close to zero chance of being posted. Chrisclear (talk) 02:06, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While I disagree that just because something is relatively local means that it is inappropriate for a global audience, what I am asking for you to prove is (3). Aaron Liu (talk) 02:11, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
IT CANNOT BE PROVEN!!!!!! You have been told why. You are asking for the impossible. You are proving nothing with that demand. Read what others say carefully please, think about it, then bugger off!!! HiLo48 (talk) 03:26, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again, it can. All you have to do is give some examples of such nominations from non-USA countries being widely opposed. Please stop shouting and actually read what I say carefully. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:14, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is nowhere near the significance of the Roe vs Wade decision. Its effect does not rise to the level of ITN-worthy IMO, regardless of how many column inches it's getting locally. Internationally, it's not on the UK BBC News page at all, and it's only the second story (after the Parkland security guard) even if you navigate to "US News". Black Kite (talk)10:17, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Which also isn't getting posted, User:TadejM. I'm not even sure if this is the most significant (or bigoted) ruling to come out of the USA Supreme Court this week. Nfitz (talk) 15:24, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any discussions here that WP:NOTFORUM would apply to. I don't see referring to (yet another) USA Supreme Court decision that legalizes prejudice makes this a forum - especially as there no opining on whether allowing sucj prejudice is good or bad. Nfitz (talk) 22:09, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose after some reflection, based on the fact that the impact from this, although potentially very large, is yet to be seen. Furthermore, I agree with above calls to keep the NOTFORUM violations out of here; contentious topics policies still apply to ITN as much as any other page on Wikipedia. --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)14:17, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Only because I mentioned this before, SCOTUS as expected ruled against the student debt forgiveness program today, thus if there is still any clear support to post this, I strongly urge that also to be combined with the student debt case. However, I see that there's a lower chance of this being posted based on current !votes. --Masem (t) 15:06, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support I’m an European and I don’t think we have been overly US centric in our postings recently. This made it to the top of Der Spiegel and The Guardian (online versions), so there’s definitely been interest also outside the US. Featuring this would actually make it easier for non-US people to find out about affirmative action, or how the US Supreme Court works. I would also support a blurb combining this with the student loans ruling (and potentially the Colorado LGBTQ ruling). Khuft (talk) 16:38, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose generally due to the scope comments above. I'm not really sure they would be rectified by the loans ruling, but I still believe I would support a combo blurb of the two. DarkSide830 (talk) 18:47, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment — Several have proposed combining rulings. The notability is solely inherent to Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard. Combining rulings will create a blurb that equivocates Harvard and Biden v. Nebraska, when Nebraska has no global significance. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)20:16, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The affirmation action one also doesn't have global significance because it primarily affects American citizens, not those internationally who have to get into these colleges with visas (itself a whole different selection process). Masem (t) 20:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If having "global significance" would be our criterion, we wouldn't post anything. None of the currently posted blurbs has global significance if you take a very stringent definition of it. The restaurant explosion in China, the prison drama in Honduras, the sinking of the Titan, Prigozhin's mutiny and the US Golf Open: all of these could be constructed as being of local or regional significance. So should we post nothing? Of course not. Global notability should be measured on the basis of whether a news item is being picked up by media in more than one country or region. All of these do, as does the SCOTUS ruling on affirmative action. Khuft (talk) 20:38, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We've had at least three nominations for court rulings from the USA this week alone (and I'm not sure the most shocking and significant ruling of international interest this week was even nominated). If were to start posting such humdrum top court rulings from around the world it would quickly exceed what is pragmatic to post in a day. Nfitz (talk) 20:54, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is a fair point, but that's not what Masem was arguing about. We anyway shouldn't post "humdrum top court rulings from around the world", but only consider those that attain international notoriety as per the various media we typically refer to. In pratice, this will mean a handful of rulings by the US Supreme Court, the ECJ and possibly one or the other ruling by another court if it's a major case (such as whenever the Brazilian Supreme Court rules on the above-mentioned Bolsonaro case). Thus I don't really see the issue here. Khuft (talk) 21:05, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Where's the international notoriety from this then? Of the four references provided, 3 are from US sources, and the 4th is BBC News - which might as well be a US source, as they have huge resources in the USA, and maintain a LOT of US news on their website; they do this because they can advertise and profit from Americans reading news - which of course they can't do in the UK. Many English-speaking papers will plaster their websites with Reuters and AP wire reports - few making it to their printed editions; much more telling would be articles that are not in English. Nfitz (talk) 21:57, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is a major misstatement. En.wiki has no problem with foreign-language sources as long as we know the source is reliable and that we have a reasonable translation. (if the material is contentious, we better have a language-expert translation, but for basic facts, a run through Google translate is usually ok). This does apply to ITN as well. Masem (t) 22:30, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Guardian, like the BBC, has major resources in the USA, which it monetizes not only through their website, but also through a weekly print edition primarily aimed at the USA, and available at US newsstands. I'm not sure what spiegel says, as it's behind a paywall here - can you describe it? Le Monde is good, that I agree, and they do seem to have further coverage. Nfitz (talk) 23:56, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Deutsche Welle is also an excellent source (and their English-language TV news channel is great too - and often free). Nfitz (talk) 01:47, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Impact still not quite clear and more importantly, I don't wish for the standard of ITN items to be lowered overall just to accommodate more events from the United States. StellarHalo (talk) 13:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Could you elaborate on standards being lowered? i.e. what was it before? I'm new to how ITN operates and there appears to be many unwritten principles. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:15, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As other opposers said above, this news item would not get nominated here to begin with had it happened in other countries besides the United States. In other word, it only got nominated and got this much support due to American-centric bias and if we follow normal standards of what usually successfully get posted to ITN, I highly doubt it would actually get nominated in the first place and even if it did, consensus would be very much against posting. Some supporters responded that we should try to nominate and post court rulings in other countries with similar level of impact to balance things out instead of not this one. StellarHalo (talk) 17:10, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose Heavily US-centric nomination. This doesn't affect anybody outside of the United States, and according to most sources, only between 4-6% of the total American college population are considered to be from abroad, which is less than a million people from abroad even being affected by this. We don't need to be posting every single SCOTUS ruling here on ITN, ITN is not a press department for SCOTUS. I get that this is English Wikipedia and that there are more likely to be more Americans on...the English Wikipedia for obvious reasons, we still have to consider a global view on things per WP:WORLDVIEW and WP:GLOBAL. TwistedAxe[contact]12:37, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Filipino politician, twice member of the House of Representatives and in her second stint as Governor of Davao Oriental at the time of her death. Jollibinay (talk) 09:41, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This politician kept winning elections, but her wikibio doesn't say much about what she did while in office. It reads like incomplete coverage of her career in politics. --PFHLai (talk) 03:26, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Gravitational waves are hard to detect but this ingenious technique seems fairly solid with a group of papers being published by an international consortium. We have work to do improving our coverage but a start has been made. Andrew🐉(talk) 07:25, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is a great science story, however, the article needs some work. The cosmological sources part is completely unsourced. --Tone10:02, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support but article needs work. This is a big moment. The SA article does wonders to explain it all in simple terms, however I currently lack the time to do justice to the article. --Ouro (blah blah) 11:19, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support (presuming quality improvements occur) but not as currently written. The blurb should clarify what this actually means, as should the article. Had to go to the Washington Post to figure out why this is important. Anarchyte (talk) 11:24, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral, leaning support - the NYT article does indicate that the findings are shy of the five sigma level that would be required in order to state with any certainty that this is a discovery and not just a random fluctuation. It wouldn't be the first time that we'd post a major scientific discovery (like the Higgs boson supposedly being found in 2012) only for it to be found out later that it was just a random glitch. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)11:49, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional support - major scientific discovery that can provide serious insight into how the fabric of reality operates. However, needs additional citations for verifications; two whole sections lack sources. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 13:11, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
temp oppose on quality - article does not explain the theoretical mechanism, no equations or theoretical predictions either, etc. we need a good description of what the grav wave background is or is predicted to be. eg. compare to CMBR article - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background, theres a chart comparing theoretical vs observed. I also want to see more indications that this is notable - it seems to me that this is just providign further evidence of gravitational waves existing and being pervasive, using pulsars as the medium of investigation (to prove that grav waves are pervasive). Quote sciam:
"...radio astronomers have tuned into the slowly undulating swells in spacetime thought to arise from pairs of supermassive black holes (SMBHs) that are about to collide.... five separate international teams... found evidence for these gravitational waves. They are far longer than the waves first captured .. in 2015, which emanate from collisions of star-size objects."
Are we going to post every single gravitational wave observation at this point? We have now observed grav waves from mergers between two black holes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_observation_of_gravitational_waves, that was the first observation and definitely deserves a blurb); but since then also a pair of neutron stars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GW170817, GW190425). We can't just be posting every time a new gw is observed between two different objects, can we?
It's not clear to me that this is a significant discovery, in terms of addition of knowledge. (Certainly the methodology is significant, but that alone is not enough to merit a blurb?) QueensanditsCrazy (talk) 15:29, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, that was the quote from Science mag, not Sci Am. The biggest issue with this is that the authors are not claiming a discovery. Quote Sci am (for real this time!): "So for now, scientist... are modestly claiming “evidence for” the gravitational-wave background... But they’re confident that milestone will come with additional observations." Emphasis added. This feels to me like a clear WP: Crystal Ball issue and definitely means to me it does not merit a blurb. QueensanditsCrazy (talk) 15:44, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on quality, both as far as sources go but also not giving appropriate context for why this is significant. The lead needs to be rewritten, too. Schwede6619:38, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Due to the article's quality and because the authors are not claiming a discovery (as per Sci Am cited above). Everything is still tentative. --TadejMmy talk23:45, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Lean to oppose, big news indeed. But, apart that the article could be improved, my main concern is that the NANOgrav study had still a low statistical confidence : 3 sigmas (Bayesian) and 3.5-4 sigmas (frequentist) (source). Not enough to announce a discovery. Anyway, I have added an AltBlurb to reflect this. Alexcalamaro (talk) 01:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The number of sigmas has to be considered in the context of the sort of research that has been done. In particle physics where you are doing a large number of experiments, a p value of 10^(-4) is not good enough because there are many experiments that are done. It would require a follow up study by an independent group to confirm such a result. In this case there was one big experiment that was run for 15 years. Another thing is that at large sigmas the p-value will deviate from the Gaussian behavior and will decay slower, see large deviations theory. So, it's not really true that 5 sigmas is enormously better than 3 sigmas, the context matters a lot. In particle physics you want to have 5 sigmas for many good reasons, most of which don't apply to the case at hand. Count Iblis (talk) 09:09, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Plot of correlation between pulsars observed by NANOGrav vs angular separation between pulsars, compared with a theoretical model (dashed purple) and if there were no gravitational wave background (solid green)[1][2]
Support – possible revolutionary development in cosmology, and Comment – I redrew the published chart as in the thumbnail and think it gives more information than the animation of a pulsar. cmɢʟee⎆τaʟκ00:07, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Debris from the submersible Titan has been returned to land after the submersible experienced a fatal implosion during its voyage to the wreck of the Titanic last week. (BBC News)
Chile assumes a temporary presidency of the Pacific Alliance from Mexico amid a diplomatic conflict which saw Mexico refusing to hand over the presidency to Peru due to the removal of president Pedro Castillo in December 2022. (Reuters)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Two minor but still somewhat glaring issues: a short lead section with only a single sentence, and a {cn} for the date of birth. --PFHLai (talk) 17:37, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: 24th perfect game in the history of MLB; last one was in 2012. Article is still in progress, but topic should be worthy of ITN. Natg 19 (talk) 16:48, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose we don't post the xth achievement in an area, where x is 2 or greater. That is if it were the first perfect game ever, that would be itn worthy. The 24th is not. Masem (t) 17:20, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Awesome achievement that I watched highlights of this morning, and not something that would or should ever be posted on ITN. I love baseball, but a one-day regular-season achievement that doesn't break a significant record is not worthy of the Main Page. -- Kicking222 (talk) 19:22, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support I fixed up all the remaining CN tags, so the article looks good to go. The NYTimes obit is really in-depth if anyone wants to try getting this to GA. Curbon7 (talk) 19:34, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: The French are again rioting; this time over the killing of 17-year-old Nael M. by police in Paris after a traffic stop. The riots are receiving widespread, international coverage, with many outlets running multiple stories on the incident. In many ways, this is somewhat full circle for me since my first nom on ITN was over another police killing: Tyre Nichols. That didn't get posted because people alleged that police shootings in America were too frequent. Regardless of how true that was, I believe France does have less of these (though not as little as you may expect). - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 16:20, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on Quality. The article lacks way too much information at the moment. It needs to be improved before we can even start discussing significance. DarkSide830 (talk) 16:23, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose First off, given that we didn't post the last time France had a riot, I don't see why we should post this time, Secondly, Per DarkSide830, Third, people die in Police shooting all the time, this is not new, and some protests, maybe riots, occur as a result all the time in America, so I don't see why this is any more important in France. Editor 5426387 (talk) 16:33, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait This feels like a situation that we gave a better understanding in 12 or 24 hr of a news cycle. Maybe these riots disperse quickly, I dunno. But the article clearly needs expansion before any posting can be made. Masem (t) 17:04, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on quality as the article's currently a disaster. Wait on notability - more than likely this doesn't lead to much, but we'll see.The Kip (talk) 17:19, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I suppose the bar is whether we would post this if it happened in another liberal democracy. The answer is "no". I wouldn't oppose putting this in ongoing if the unrest continues, though. --RockstoneSend me a message!00:49, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Separating the riots from the killing makes no sense. Unless the riots go on for months (ala the George Floyd protests), the riots are an immediate result of the killing that should stay with the details of the killing for the time being. Masem (t) 12:03, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - article quality looks fine, although could be expanded a bit more (the Killing article). I have seen shorter articles posted to blurb! Definitely significant - has been going on for a few days now I think? QueensanditsCrazy (talk) 11:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support on principle - the riots have intensified in the last 48 hrs - however, I will stand on the fact that there is no reason for the unrest article to have be split off from the killing article at this time, for purposes of ITN posting. Obviously, if the unrest continues as it has been for more than a week, the split may start to make sense, but the split now is not proper per NEVENT. --Masem (t) 12:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I brought up on the talk page that the page has been unilaterally moved to an alleged surname with no sources to back that up. I can find no references for the alleged surname on Google News or on French Wikipedia - where it's also been moved. I don't know if there's a policy for sorting that out before an article goes on the front page of Wikipedia with a potentially inaccurate title. Unknown Temptation (talk) 20:10, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I would now support on notability given the scale of the riots and government response, but the article cannot be posted to main page with such a BLP and V issue. Kingsif (talk) 20:20, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support - This is front page news worldwide and the scale of the riots has reached every major city within France and are almost certainly unlikely to end during the weekend, it seems silly to oppose on that basis (though granted most of the comments here were from two days ago). For what it is worth (little), during the 2005 riots we featured (in the archives) it on the front page, though 6 days in seemingly. Tweedle (talk) 22:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Posted General consensus to post after early opposes due to sparse article, since developed. Some early waits and opposes also later changed to supports. Without much guidance, I generally used the first, simpler blurb. Feel free to discuss if more details are warranted.—Bagumba (talk) 11:47, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Needs more input, as discussion above seemed to have merged articles before. Also should get more feedback if "protests" are significant enough to also be mentioned in the blurb.—Bagumba (talk) 03:56, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There really should not be separate articles yet. If the protests go on for, say, a week or more, then that would be its own event, but everything right now is still an immediate result of the killing. (and if they do go on for more than a week, that is likely good reason for us to put the protests as ongoing). We're an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, and we shouldn't be trying to predict what is going to be the significant outcome of this yet. Masem (t) 04:03, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose Lack of citations in the Arms and In popular culture sections. Expansion on family (and sourcing as well) would be helpful not not necessarily necessary. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800000:16, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article's quality concerns have not been addressed. With less than an hour until this gets pushed off, I think it's safe to say that consensus to post will not develop. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800023:33, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated One or both nominated events are listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: Although the opposition is denying the results (which affects some people's support of general elections), he's already been sworn in, so it seems moot. Needs a lot of work (also surprisingly, there's very little coverage of the election results, even though the lead up did for the crackdown on the opposition). - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 07:41, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for two reasons, one for each bolded article. 1), the Bio article needs some restructuring, especially as a lot of the content in the lead (which is supposed to be a summary of the article) is not represented later on. 2), the election article needs a lot of expanding upon. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800000:43, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support - big news in South Korea; a millenia old tradition has finally been abolished in favor for the standard format. I too actually just read your December nom a few days ago and for the folks dismissing this as administrative trivia, this is actually been a big issue within Korea; for example, their COVID vax policy was all over the place due to inconsistencies in age measuring and was what actually finally led to them switching. Arguments about this just being an administrative change not only aren't true (since this system was in common use amongst SK populace) seem to be setting an exceptionally and rather idiosyncratic standard for what should be posted here, and it also comes off as reeking of the WP:ITNCDONT clause of please do not oppose an item solely because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is generally unproductive, since I frankly doubt it would be considered "no big deal" if it occured in the US or UK. In fact, I wonder if this is considered "just an administrative change," how many of you would object to the US formally converting to the metric system being featured on ITN "because its just an administrative change?" - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 09:17, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please pleaseplease shorten your !votes?? I know you can make a concise point without writing a vote longer than two paragraphs. But these long, ranty !votes aren't helpful at all. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)12:36, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
After multiple calls from you and FakeScientist, I shortened my responses from a max of one or two. The in #(Posted) Wagner Group mutiny, you responded to one of my replies with Second, could you maybe trim the length of your posts a bit? If your !vote is longer than one paragraph, consider whether it's too long. I haven't included a second paragraph since, and this paragraph was shorter than the bigger one from that reply. Now that's apparently not enough either? Are y'all doing this in a completely arbitrary manner or do y'all think this works best incrementally? I'm following what y'all stated. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 15:25, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's just -- can you find a way to communicate your point in a concise fashion without railing against other users? This isn't just arbitrary technicalities. Anyone can identify your !votes by the fact that they're needlessly long and rambling, and you go on tirades against opposing arguments. Masem is right, it's disruptive, and this is not the first time it has been brought up. I'm not sure what's being missed here; maybe I need to provide diffs so you can see what's being referred to? Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)15:50, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, I don't think they're really that disruptive. I think Knight makes some good points actually. I'd say that debating over the appropriate lengths that an ITN vote should be is equally as "disruptive" as the long votes themselves, but that's just my opinion. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 18:43, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I can almost always tell if a comment, !vote, or even a nomination is from you if the comment lengths exceeds that of 2 sentences. In my previous request, I said maybe 2 paragraphs at most is fair (assuming on the rare occasion), not every time you comment (and as mentioned by others, they always repeat the same exact points). Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800023:55, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, a gimmick. nobody’s actually getting younger. Changing the way they count age in a way which affects nothing else in the world. Hyperbolick (talk) 09:23, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support It's not a major story but the article update is ok and it's more in-the-news than several of the existing blurbs (for example, the US Open finished 10 days ago). The Titan submersible story should be considered newer as that didn't climax until 22 June – four days later – and is still getting attention. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:19, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
a five-sentence update (with at minimum three references, not counting duplicates) is generally more than sufficient, while a one-sentence update is highly questionable
I don't see any updates since the announcement. What is the anticipation? What are the preparations? What is the expected impact?—Bagumba (talk) 11:50, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose both on the gimmicky nature of this (better for DYK as an interesting fact) and the lack of any significant update to explain the significance per Bagumba. --Masem (t) 12:03, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To those supporting thus, if it is that significant, there needs to be far more than a one sentence update to the article. We need to know what govt services and other facets of life are now changed in a significant manner. On the surface, this adjustment appears as a plain as when we have a leap year. Masem (t) 15:46, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support I disagree with everyone who is suggesting this is only appropriate for DYK. I think this could be a perfect addition both for the ITN and DYK. It's a tradition that has been in Korea for like a thousand years now, and it has come to a halting end. Big news. TwistedAxe[contact]13:14, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It's a bookkeeping move, plain and simple. If South Koreans want to celebrate their birthdays like they had in the past, they are not prevented from doing so, so the "cultural impact" here is dubious. DarkSide830 (talk) 16:14, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Significant, interesting, and has permanent ramifications. Article needs a touch-up though. There are some unresolved tags and a cite templates error. Folly Mox (talk) 16:17, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is this gimmicky? Kinda. Is this internationally significant? No. But it is an interesting story, one that has quite significant impact in South Korea, is making some headlines, and I honestly do not see the harm in posting it. Perhaps I'm wrong though. I better stop writing before this becomes too long, otherwise I shall be labeled Tendentious! PrecariousWorlds (talk) 18:41, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps tendentious was the wrong word to use, but it's a valid complaint to make when you see nearly every other editor on this page concisely sum up their vote in 2-3 lines at most, except for one often leaving a 5-7 line paragraph. The Kip (talk) 19:07, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, quality over quantity, I do agree. But I think in this day an age a man should be judged not by the size of his comment, but by the content of his vote.
I don't think Knight is making his votes deliberately long or in bad faith, and I've seen him make some good points.
Unclear possibly significant, but i'm not sure just a sentence on the relevant article counts as enough prose to make this a good quality posting. Could it be spun off into a separate article or section? Idk just some ideas. QueensanditsCrazy (talk) 19:05, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - if something of this magnitude were happening in (for example) the US, I'd support it. I don't see why this is any different. It is big news, and it's not like this is something that happens every day. See you in 1000 years. :-) --RockstoneSend me a message!21:38, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
People who are saying this should be sent to DYK have no idea what DYK is for and should desist doing this on other articles that they don't think are important enough to be here.Howard the Duck (talk) 22:11, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As a long-time DYK contributor, I can say that "DYK ... that, after 1000 years, all South Koreans became a year younger?" would actually be fantastic content over there. Sometimes, yes, the suggestion something belongs at DYK is a bad one, but here it's a genuine response to, particularly, the nomination comment. Also, no need to go all-bold text, please. Kingsif (talk) 22:39, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As a long-time DYK contributor, you should know that it's an uphill battle for this to be approved. The article is already pretty lengthy, so a 5x expansion is pretty much impossible. You can probably split the South Korean reckoning to a separate article; perhaps that's more plausible. This article, at its current state can be WP:GA, but that may take sometime, and once this is promoted to GA status, the newsworthiness of this event has subsided. Howard the Duck (talk) 22:47, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose Calling it a gimmick is a bit too flippant, but there's a comparison above saying in principle there is little difference between this and a leap year that I agree with. I imagine if ITN had been around when leap years were introduced, we would have blurbed that news, or I would have !supported, at least - because the little difference is that leap years affect the whole world indefinitely. And this doesn't. Kingsif (talk) 22:39, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment this has consensus to post, both in strength of the arguments and in numbers alone (10 in support and 6 in opposition, once opposes based on the lack of an update are omitted). However, I'm leery to do so because there are multiple tags in that section, and there's a lot of reading to get through before a reader sees the update. Is it possible to create a new subsection specifically for this update? (Beyond the scope of this ITNC nomination, I'd also wonder if this article is ripe for splitting.) Ed[talk][majestic titan]02:19, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose purely on quality. No issue with the subject matter, but all other sections are poorly sourced. We're bolding an anchored section, but the rest of the article isn't in great nick. Anarchyte (talk) 10:13, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb - The more I think about it, the more I kind of enjoy the nature of this story and how interesting it is, and the impact on an entire population is almost axiomatic! That said, I hope the quality can be brought up to par to permit for this. --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)13:44, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support based on quality; I think it's juuuuust about what I think the baseline quality for a posted article should be. I support posting in general based partly on significance and partly because, honestly, i just like the story. It's interesting and different. Kicking222 (talk) 19:20, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per PrecariousWorlds and WaltCip. It's one of those difficult borderline cases, but in such cases I think it is appropriate to recognize the interesting/unique factor. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:00, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The section relating to Korea appears to be fine, but the rest of the article is rough in terms of sourcing. The China section has three CN tags (two of which are on entire paragraphs), the Japan section has an OR and CN tag, and the Vietnam section is orange tagged for sources. I think there is also more unsourced content than meets the eye due to the lede; the lede, particularly the second paragraph that begins with Chinese age reckoning, has considerable content that does not appear to be found elsewhere in the article and is not cited. I'm doubtful this could be considered ready due to quality at the moment. Curbon7 (talk) 03:41, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The article's quality is lacking and it is a local administrative event of no international ramifications. It's interesting and uncommon, but only as a type of trivia. --TadejMmy talk14:30, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose is still a purely administrative change whose real impact is the change of some numbers (and the morale of some). A very interesting matter, that's for sure. _-_Alsor (talk) 15:15, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The whole topic is growing older and older and less fitting to be in ITN. Perhaps we should consider closing this discussion soon as the consensus is not developing for posting this either. TwistedAxe[contact]16:18, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
RD re-posted following sourcing improvements after pull. No consensus for a blurb regarding the circumstances of the death.—Bagumba (talk) 05:23, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Needs a bit of work to sort out the usual problems. Sad case: missing on a hike five months ago, his remains have only just been found. (Addendum: Nominated for RD, not a blurb: I oppose the blurb, but support the RD once the article is sorted) SchroCat (talk) 21:18, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for the usual reason, as the filmography is entirely uncited. That said, not stale as the remains were only confirmed as his today. The Kip (talk) 22:34, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Filmography section is entirely unsourced. Fix, and this should be good to go.Support RD as the article's quality looks good. Oppose blurb as the death is not entirely notable in and of it's own right. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800022:53, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb. It is often argued by users that we should blurb cases which are unusual, where death is the story. After sudden disappearance of renowned actor, it was the focus of top websites, akin to Titan disappearance. World famous actor wasn't found in digital age for almost half a year. Death is the story here, the search was covered in sources for several months, this was a major ongoing story and it concluded. Kirill C1 (talk) 04:40, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - world famous? baloney. I don't think his absence has even been noted by most international media. There's been likely more coverage of Amelia Earhart's disappearance here than Sands'.Nfitz (talk) 06:43, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The coverage is brief. It's a short-term human interest story about a B-list celebrity. Unlike the rebellion in Moscow - this will not be mentioned again in the media tomorrow. It's barely notable; let alone blurbable. Nfitz (talk) 19:31, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb I agree that the significance should be put aside to post a blurb if the death happened under unusual circumstances, but we need a standalone article that documents those unusual circumstances that will be bolded in the blurb.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 07:36, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb This is definitely getting lots of attention as it spiked 3 days ago and was the #2 top read article yesterday – more than Wagner Group, for example. Altogether, nigh on a million views so far. This demonstrates that the topic is prominent in the news and, for example, the BBC has it as a top story. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:15, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - per WP:ITNRDBLURB, blurb RDs can be posted if it fits the following criterion:
Death as the main story: For deaths where the cause of death itself is a major story (such as the unexpected death of a prominent figure by homicide, suicide, or accident) or where the events surrounding the death merit additional explanation (such as ongoing investigations, major stories about memorial services or international reactions, etc.) a blurb may be merited to explain the death's relevance. In general, if a person's death is only notable for what they did while alive, it belongs as an RD link. If the person's death itself is newsworthy for either the manner of death or the newsworthy reaction to it, it may merit a blurb.
This is about as textbook of an example as it gets: a famous actor that contrary to @Nfitz's claims, has had widespread (CNN, The Guardian, Sky News, NPR, NBC, WaPo, NYT, Reuters) international (France24, Euronews, DW, Al Jazeera, El Pais, Le Monde) coverage of his disappearance. That fact that you personally never heard of it is not and shall never be a valid rationale (that's literally as WP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH AND WP:IDONTLIKEIT as it gets), nor should the fact that he's a dreaded "celebrity" (because based on how much fear mongering their is about ITN turning into a celebrity newsticker, there will likely be people who will reflexively oppose on that basis) disqualify him. Additionally, @Kiril Simeonovski, I don't understand this idea that I've seen where events nominated her have to have a standalone article; hell, {{ITN candidate}} literally has a |update= parameter in part for non standalone articles. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 09:00, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If we're going to post a blurb, it'd be because the death is the main story, not that the person was notable. In that case, we require a standalone article that'd be bolded in the blurb. If we bold Julian Sands, it'd give undue weight on the person, who's not supposed to be the main target in the blurb.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 09:07, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, we require a standalone article that'd be bolded in the blurb.
Where in any of the ITN policy pages does it state that? In fact, considering the above excerpt is extracted from the Recent Deaths policy page, which solely focus on the article of the deceased individual, I'd say that it heavily implies the opposite; in the instance of a "death as primary story" blurb, you don't need a separate article. In fact, I don't understand the argument that by not having one, we're giving WP:UNDUE weight with a blurb considering the whole story literally revolves around him. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 09:23, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's no specific policy stating when a standalone article should exist, but it's oftentimes mentioned as a principal requirement in ITN discussions. I've proposed an alternative blurb to illustrate why that standalone article is needed. Moreover, even having a standalone article may not be sufficient for a blurb. The disappearance of Emiliano Sala was top news in all media, and the story is well documented in 2019 English Channel Piper PA-46 crash, but it was posted only to RD.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 09:45, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's no specific policy stating when a standalone article should exist, but it's oftentimes mentioned as a principal requirement in ITN discussions.
Then those arguments should be disregarded for violating policy. For example, we've run blurbs about countries re-establishing diplomatic relations and we don't require a specific article for that; just a link to the article on their relations (e.g, France-Germany relations [btw, we didn't run a blurb on Germany and France establishing diplomatic ties, I'm just using that article as an example]). - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 19:19, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This seems like comparing apples and oranges. Deaths are different from other news we post, and we even have different criteria for posting death blurbs. Whether a standalone article is necessary depends on common sense and experience, not on any kind of a policy or a rule written in stone, so disregarding arguments because of lacking policy depth is sort of rules-lawyering. In this particular case, the standalone article is required for a practical reason, that is, to document the notable death as argued by other editors in this discussion. I don't think the story about the disappearance and death make this person outstandingly notable. It's the disappearance and death that merits inclusion, and it needs to be evaluated separately.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:08, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with Knightofthewords assessment that a"bout as textbook of an example as it gets". Looking at For deaths where the cause of death itself is a major story (such as the unexpected death of a prominent figure by homicide, suicide, or accident) or where the events surrounding the death merit additional explanation (such as ongoing investigations, major stories about memorial services or international reactions, etc.) a blurb may be merited to explain the death's relevance, we have neither ongoing investigations, memorial services, nor international reactions. And we are hard-pressed to even say prominent. I do agree though that this should be opposed because the death happened months ago. Nfitz (talk) 19:31, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose blurb - It is true that WP:ITNRD says that a blurb may be merited when the death itself or the manner of death is newsworthy. However, I concur with Kiril that such types of situations -- being that the death is the main story -- would normally call for a standalone article. After all, if the death itself is extraordinarily unusual, that carries a sort of encyclopedic significance: see death of Jeffrey Epstein as an example. --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)12:54, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Blurb It certainly does not say in policy that a standalone aritcle is needed for a celebrity death story in ITN. Just because a standalone article isn't present doesnt make the circumstances of his death unusual and newsworthy; readership stats across websites have proven so, as indicated above. I find this blurbworthy. DrewieStewie (talk) 14:08, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not considered stale/still considered RD as the remains found were only confirmed as him a day ago. Until then, he was legally a missing person, not dead. The Kip (talk) 17:22, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've also tagged TV Guide cites that didn't support the particular role. This all seems to have been from this edit by 2001:bb6:4e52:7d00:2c39:af7f:1a62:ca6f (talk), whose edit summary reads: The BFI source will cover many of his film references and the TV Guide one will cover several of the film roles too and almost all, if not all, his TV roles. So the most efficient way to do this is to use these refs and when I or another editor has time to go through them all in more detail (I have already gone through many of them one by one) any that aren't on the list can be removed for a different citation to be added. That's misleading when it's cited to a specific role.—Bagumba (talk) 05:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've cleared up pretty much everything I could see, so it may be okay, but it could do with a check to make sure I haven't missed anything. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:09, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: This is (and has been recognized as such by political analysts and legal scholars as) probably one of the most critical SCOTUS decisions in a hot minute. It essentially rejects this idea that American state legislatures have ultimate power over elections without ay checks and balances; effectively allowing them in practice to interfere with the electoral process. The decision in the case will have ramifications persisting for a while, and while you can argue that we just retained the status quo, this was a surprisingly up in the air and close ruling. Additionally, the ruling has raised concerns about interference within elections, but instead from states, from SCOTUS. Finally, for the people rushing to oppose due to accusations of U.S centrism (in violation of WP:ITNCUSA), considering how much of the global system is determined by America and these days its incumbent federal government, I'd say that this is somewhat relevant globally with the 2024 elections. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 17:47, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose Certainly relevant to the U.S. (as an American) but not sure it rises to the significance needed for ITN. If it gets significant international coverage a la Dobbs, I could be persuaded to support. - Presidentmantalk · contribs (Talkback) 18:10, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I've looked at a number of heavyweight news sources outside the US, and the biggest US story from most of those is Trump babbling about state secrets (i.e. BBC. Indeed, this story isn't on the BBC's US page at all. I am guessing it will appear at some point (I note it's on Le Monde, but below the fold), but at the moment this doesn't seem to rise to the importance required for ITN. Black Kite (talk)18:28, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Presidentman. Yes, opposing because “only one country” is against rules, but I’m not sure if this is generally notable enough to be blurbed. The Kip (talk) 18:53, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait - Thanks for bringing this to my attention Knight, it's a very interesting story indeed. I have to concur with the other editors here that this probably isn't notable, but as per @Presidentman, we shouldn't immediately oppose. Let's wait and see the international reaction!
"Moore v. Harper had been described as one of the highest-profile cases the Supreme Court has taken in recent years; former federal judge Michael Luttig called it the "single most important case on American democracy—and for American democracy—in the nation's history"." - A quote from the article. Seems pretty big! Let us all wait and see :) PrecariousWorlds (talk) 18:53, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose — ...considering how much of the global system is determined by America and these days its incumbent federal government is U.S. centrism. Not every story is ITN-worthy. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)19:31, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Compared to Allen v. Milligan, this decision just doesn't seem significant even in the US; unlike Milligan, the court here is simply re-affirming the status quo against a crackpot theory. If the court decided in favor of the plaintiff, then we would likely be talking about a blurb because it would lead to a fundamental restructuring of the American political system, but the court did not. Curbon7 (talk) 19:37, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as, while it's good news, it is a "status quo" result and this decision won't likely have too much impact, not as much as Milligan as Curbon says. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:40, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - maybe this would have been notable if the decision had gone the other way, but this decision literally changes nothing because it's just reaffirming past precedent. I'm thankful for the outcome, but I think ITN requires more. --RockstoneSend me a message!19:52, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Irrelevant outside the U.S, does not affect much of anything outside of America, and this really doesn't seen that important given that it changed nothing. Editor 5426387 (talk) 20:03, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose for the same issue as the last time this was nominated for ongoing, which is that it’s not receiving consistent updates. The page as a whole has only seven edits in the last 10 days and one of those was a bot. The Kip (talk) 04:07, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Very little updates, seems to be stuck in somewhat of a stalemate for now except for spontaneous outbreaks every now and then resulting in a handful of deaths. TwistedAxe[contact]12:23, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Thanks for the nomination and the updatings. I'm in the process of expanding the content and sources, I hope to have it finished tonight. A true icon of Spain has passed away. _-_Alsor (talk) 16:11, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
WP:SNOW close. This is not the type of story that needs to be in ongoing- if it was, we would have a plethora of ongoing items- and the article hasn't even been updated in two weeks. If there is relevant news about the crisis, it should be nominated as a regular ITN item, though I don't think a currency hitting a record low would get posted in and of itself. -- Kicking222 (talk) 17:33, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
No updates to the article to show any key events in 2023. Absolutely required against a five-year ongoing event. Masem (t) 12:09, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Turkey's economy has been declining for a while and hasn't caused any major catastrophe, deaths, humanitarian disaster or such. Also, very little to no updates and the situation is very stale at the moment. TwistedAxe[contact]12:58, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This has been happening since 2018, event been ongoing since 5 years ago, if we posted every ongoing event, there would be at least 10 ongoing blurbs. Editor 5426387 (talk) 14:52, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Oppose for now as there's no prose on the results/aftermath. Definitely post separate from the presidential election, though, as the runoff isn't for another two months. The Kip (talk) 22:21, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose as stale, IMO - while the Hollywood Reporter obit is from today, the CalArts obituary is from May 30, so I don't really think this fits as a "recent" death. Nohomersryan (talk) 00:40, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BOLDLY reopening due to the rather peculiar circumstances of his death's coverage; despite the original CalArts obit dropping last month, it was the only source to mention him dying for a month plus until The Hollywood Reporter aired their story. I searched on Google for him and filtered the results by date and until the Hollywood reporter article, there was no other mention of his death outside the rather obscure CalArts obituary; even the Reddit post that for whatever reason says May 31 was actually from yesterday. Hell, our own article didn't even mention his death until June 22 and wasn't reliably sourced until the 23rd (see history here). You can't argue that it's a Wikipedia sleuth either since according to THR, they were granted this info by his daughter, as opposed to CalArts sourcing the announcement from Travis Preston. Considering that the only coverage that makes this stale per WP:ITNRD is a single obscure blog essentially, with even Wikipedia, infamous for being swift on reporting deaths, not being aware of it until a couple days ago, I am IAR supporting conditionally. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 20:07, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I tipped THR of his obit when I updated the page, which is why they wrote the article now. Anyway I still oppose (he was a CalArts professor, I think if CalArts announces your death in that case, it's fair game) but I don't object to reopening. Nohomersryan (talk) 21:07, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A university website is not an "obscure blog" and it's not our job to make things right if nobody here noticed the obit for a month. I can't close this as I've already voted above, but calling on an admin to re-close. The Kip (talk) 22:20, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A university website is not an "obscure blog"
In terms of traffic, it kind of is. Might I also add that this was a single story of many, and additionally was not from a university website - well, it kind of was, but that wording is a little misleading; it's from a specific department's blog. I mean, I would like to restate the fact that it took a month for us, famous for updating articles to mention their subject's death within minutes of the announcement, to update it, and roughly the same time for any other site to do too. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 01:52, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. If the media didn't pick up on it at all (not a single publication) and eventually had to be tipped off about it, and a whole month later, and it also took that long for a single Wikipedia editor to update it, then it is quite obscure relatively speaking. 2001:BB6:4E52:7D00:2C39:AF7F:1A62:CA6F (talk) 07:48, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support IAR reopening of nom due to obscure coverage. I don't find this stale, owing to the unusual circumstances. I will conditionally support once CN tags are handled. DrewieStewie (talk) 14:14, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional support I’m happy to IAR but would like to see some expansion so that it’s clearly not a stub any longer. Schwede6620:38, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Insufficient depth of coverage. Lacks the minimum "three complete, referenced and well-formed paragraphs": two of the paragraphs are 2-sentence onces, and the most substantial one is mostly a list of works/roles without much more. SpencerT•C01:57, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post-oppose At best, weak support that IAR applies for a stale death report. But IAR for a low quality page, per Spencer's comment? It's only technically barely past a stub because a typical list filmography is instead in prose format, listing only credits without any context of those roles. 5th grader quality.—Bagumba (talk) 04:18, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pull. Stale is stale. It's not our fault that coverage here was bad, and it doesn't look like there was ever consensus to post to begin with. DarkSide830 (talk) 20:09, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: former Lieutenant Governor of New York and chairman of the MTA, amongst other leadership roles in private businesses. Needs cause of death in body of article. 3rd RD nomination ever, let’s see if this goes better than the last two times. GhostStalker (Got a present for ya! / Mission Log) 21:46, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Article prose needs to be updated with his death date; specific cause of death is not needed, especially considering he was a very old man. Otherwise, the article is well-cited and is very holistic, so consider this a support once updated. Curbon7 (talk) 21:53, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article needs updating Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose There are quite a few uncited paras and awards. Just because they don't have a CN tag next to them doesn't mean they're all set. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800021:23, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article needs updating Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Barbadian PM. Might I ask, since the PM of Barbados holds executive power, making him a "world figure" in a sense, would that make him eligible for a blurb? - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 20:14, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Article looks ready to go. Enough sourcing + length in the article.Oppose orange tag and several CN tags have been added and must be addressed. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800020:32, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Barbados achieved independence independence in 1966. I'm assuming this is referring to their status as a commonwealth nation, which seems to be a somewhat absurd criteria to me (so if Trudeau dropped dead today, we wouldn't blurb?). - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 21:28, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Trudeau is the current leader of Canada, Sandiford was the former leader of Barbados, so there is a clear difference in scope. Anyways, politicians are not considered for death-blurbs by mere virtue of holding an office, they are considered for the actions they do in that office. Curbon7 (talk) 21:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose RD at moment due to sourcing issues. Strong oppose blurb regardless of those issues- in no way do we need to blurb every world leader who dies, and the subject was in no way a hugely transformative figure on the world stage. -- Kicking222 (talk) 03:05, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose Too bare. Career section, his main notability, is sparse and no more than a simple CV in prose form. Short, stubby article is butressed by lead and personal details.—Bagumba (talk) 10:56, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article needs updating Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
RD posted and no consensus for a blurb. While he was an important figure, there was a large opposition regarding the level of fame sufficient for a blurb.—Bagumba (talk) 04:50, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Strong Support Prof. Goodenough's legacy extends far beyond lithium-ion batteries and Random Access Memory. As I write this, I want to point to his strong work ethic taking into account that he worked as long as he could to further improve materials science. As far as I know, he was working on solid-state batteries up until his death paving the way to replace the very batteries he helped to create.
Blurb - inventor of a highly pivotal technology that has had a remarkable effect on our modern lives; was very much a "top of his field" character. His death appeared on the news aggregate I use and is receiving coverage from large RSes (Reuters, The Verge, Forbes, and the NYT, plus an AP news wire). Aside from batteries, he also further propagated materials science in other aspects and was widely regarded as a leading figure within the field. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 19:31, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I did consider a blurb for Goodenough. The blurb conversation will be interesting to read. While I nominated this as an RD and not blurb, I can get behind a support blurb. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 19:41, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That Forbes piece is from a contributer so it is unreliable, before people start jumping on adding it to the article. However, on the blurb, I don't think he represents the top of the field, as while receiving the Novel is important, we aren't blurbing the deaths of all Nobel winners. If anything, the article needs a clear section of his work's impact on the field of batteries, which otherwise right now is buried across the article. Masem (t) 19:54, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To add, he did not "invent" lithium batteries, but did help in a key findings of which materials to use to improve their capacity to reduce size and make them practical. Masem (t) 19:58, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per our articles, Whittingham was the inventory of lithium-ion batteries. Goodenough discovered a better material to use for the anodes to increase charge density, which was a significant step in the development of lithium-ion batteries, but wasn't the inventor of them. Masem (t) 21:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb - Incredible scientific accomplishments that I think merit a distinction as being one of those sui generis transformative figures. --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)20:11, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb - not a household name enough. I see it on BBC, NYtimes (a small box), but not on CNN or Al Jazeera. Transformative for sure but not more important than any of the articles we have on right now, I think. QueensanditsCrazy (talk) 01:54, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly your argument as to whether or not he is a household name is a valid one, but generally we don't post items relative to whether or not they are more or less important than what's currently listed on the ITN template. Each item is assessed on its own merits. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)14:06, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Of course he was a transformative figure, that's why he won the Nobel Prize. He and so many other people, and that's not why they had to be nominated for blurb. _-_Alsor (talk) 06:04, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb I think there does need to be some baseline level of "fame," for lack of a better word. Things like lithium-ion batteries and random-access memory don't really have one universally recognized "inventor." (Our article on random-access memory doesn't even mention him. M. Stanley Whittingham has been called the "founding father" of lithium-ion batteries.) Zagalejo (talk) 14:19, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What??? So now the going criteria for a blurb is not being transformative, but being "famous"? So now we have an even more nebulous criteria, but somehow being the driving force behind the creation of two of the most significant technologies for modern life doesn't make you "famous". DarkSide830 (talk) 16:51, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Blurbed deaths should be rare, based on a level of "fame" and noteworthiness of the death and public reaction to the death. Not every Nobel Prize winner should have a blurb. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:24, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb I don't want to set the precedent that every Nobel Prize winner gets a blurb. There were 14 Nobel Prize winners in 2022; are we prepared to add 14 death blurbs per year? Outside of the Nobel Prize, while his invention was transformative, you could say that about a lot of scientists, including many Nobel Prize winners; I don't think he as a person transcends the field of science the way someone like Jane Goodall or Stephen Hawking does. NorthernFalcon (talk) 15:54, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No one is saying we should post all Nobel winners, nor should we. And if we are honest, I think there's a fairly easy arguemnt to suggest that Goodenough's contributions to the world are much more impactful to the average person then Goodall or Hawking. DarkSide830 (talk) 16:58, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb. Not every person who has "done transformative work" is well known enough for a blurb. Death blurbs should be reserved for those who are both transformative and well known, imho. Natg 19 (talk) 22:43, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Strong oppose To say that the biography is a catastrophe would be an understatement. Nowhere in the article does it refer to how or when he died. Article needs a ton of work before it's even ready. Also, very stubby article. TwistedAxe[contact]12:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article needs updating Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Weak support Honestly, article isn't all that bad and it's of decent quality. However, the top of the article needs some work as it looks very messy. Other than that, should be ok to post. TwistedAxe[contact]12:41, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support whether or not the discography is sourced per WP:BLUE. De facto, discographies are rarely sourced. I took a random sample of 5 music performer good articles, and none of them had citations in the discographies. Holding ITN articles to such a high bar creates systemic bias to subjects with sparse sourcing (which is more likely with a person from the Global South). — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 20:22, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No...no it doesn't. It just makes sure that unverified information doesn't get by onto the Main Page. Sample some featured articles and check if their discographies have citations in them. Besides, ITN quality is not the same as GA quality, and if the creator has enough sources to become a good article, you probably already know that the discography was actually made by them. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800020:37, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, FAs:
All the ones I checked don't have citations in the discographies. A few I had to exclude because they didn't have discography lists.
Go ahead. Could you check the second half of my statement, too? ITN quality is not the same as GA quality, and it isn't even the same as FA quality. Ask any posting admin here; they'll say what I'm saying. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800023:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article needs updating Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Twistedaxe. We usually only delete articles if they are not notable. Most other issues can be fixed with editing and incremental improvement. Wikipedia is a work in progress, and there are no deadlines. Please tone down your rhetoric. Calling articles "catastrophes" and acting shocked that an article hasn't been deleted is not helping the atmosphere here. Thanks. –Novem Linguae (talk) 12:58, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. Anyway, I gave that article a good read, and I ended up deleting most of it since it was uncited and making some controversial claims. Someone may revert me though, we'll see if it sticks. –Novem Linguae (talk) 13:13, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Now there's nothing to the article, and the lead is uncited, except for the one citation for his death, which doesn't even have an exact date. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800014:48, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's a reason the parameter is |updated= and not |ready=; no where in Template:ITN candidate/doc does is state that the former should only be switched to yes if ready. The only definition of an update on ITN is a simple reflection of the newsworthy event; in this case, his death date. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 22:01, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well in any case the "article needs updating" which is the correct status currently, so using the updated flag will help reviewers know which nominations to prioritize. Articles which need significant work are not yet sufficiently updated for posting. - Indefensible (talk) 22:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks way better now, however still needs some ref work. 2 sources is very little and the article is still in a stubby position. Might change my opinion/view later on, but in it's current state it's still not enough for ITNRD. TwistedAxe[contact]09:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support. The baltic horse show reference is a dead link, but apart from that the article looks good to go. Wouldn't object to a blurb; the fact that he was one of the oldest living Olympians, the longest lived German Olympic medalist, and the oldest surviving male medalist from the 1952 Olympics makes this interesting and a welcome difference from the normal blurbs we post. BilledMammal (talk) 01:27, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose Quite a few unsourced statements and CN tags in the article. Must be fixed in order to be good enough for ITNRD. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800000:38, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
23:59, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
Oppose as the article's quality is quite subpar. There are quite a few CN tags, and the overall length of the article is quite stubby. Improvement is needed, and fast. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800023:05, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Worth noting that there were no CN tags when the article was nominated. Now there's a lot because you added them. Granted, some of these may be required but I think you might have gone a bit overboard with some of them. Sometimes it's just as easy to add a ref/citation as it is to add a tag. Plus the refs already in the article cover a lot - if not all - of the info now tagged. 2001:BB6:4E52:7D00:AD4D:4C49:94D1:E651 (talk) 08:10, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Now there's a lot because you added them...I think you might have gone a bit overboard some of them: I think that's good; now editors/readers know what needs sourcing. On the flip side, editors might only fix what is minimally tagged, and complain later on when they're fixed, but more is added: "But, you didn't tag it before". Plus the refs already in the article cover a lot or all of the info now tagged It's possible that WP:INTEGRITY of the sources declined with new text being added over time. If an existing source is applicable, by all means re-use it with a new footnote.—Bagumba (talk) 08:39, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update - all the CN tags have now been fixed with sources. Plus new sources have been added. So no issue there. As for the length of the article itself, I've added headings and expanded it a bit with some info from sources. There's plenty of references with lots more info to draw from if other editors feel like expanding it more. Not sure if I'll have time to myself but might take a look if I find any. In the meantime, all the issues - except maybe length - seem to have been addressed. If more CN tags are added, I'll try to fix them with additional sources. 2001:BB6:4E52:7D00:AD4D:4C49:94D1:E651 (talk) 09:07, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: Greeces New Democratic party has triumphed in today's elections, with it being hailed as a major victory for conservatism. The latter half of the article is a tablewall, which needs to be remedied. - Knightoftheswords (Talk·Contribs) 22:35, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Support as every other UN country when they elect a head of state or government. Smaller countries have been covered so not including Greece is racist by definition. —Dimsar01Talk ⌚→ 08:36, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps read the rest of the discussion before you start throwing random accusations of "racism" around... As it literally says at the top of this section - "Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance". And that's what the opposition so far is regarding. — Amakuru (talk) 10:50, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think screaming "racist" having never once contributed to ITN and clearly not knowing how it works is an incredible violation of WP:AGF... not least because you have no idea what races other people are! Kicking222 (talk) 12:22, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Some analysis is needed to explain the result for general readers. I had to read the BBC report – which is a professionally written explanation. Our article doesn't come close. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:03, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support for the reason that alot of people in this discussion seem to be forgetting that this is a snap election. There's plenty of prose in the article for being a relatively new article, and not to mention that this election is a follow-up of the previous election from May, which has a TON of prose and is more than enough to post in ITN. The reason why we didn't post it the last time around was solely because of the fact that we knew these June snap elections were imminent and were posting to post them too. I opposed the last nom regarding these elections, and will be supporting this one for the reasons I stated before. TwistedAxe[contact]12:49, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not quite ready I think it'd benefit from at least a brief paragraph about the aftermath or some analysis about what the results will mean. Not every election article we post needs to have this, but given that other editors have already located quality RS that provide this (e.g. the BBC article Andrew linked) we have the potential to make the article better before putting it on the main page. Vanilla Wizard 💙16:44, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose Decade old yellow tag, handful of CN tags, and many unsourced statements and paragraphs make this article's quality ineligible for ITNRD. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800021:03, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support. Long enough, well-cited, and updated with his death. I'm not a fan of having several short sections, but that's a minor style quibble. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:18, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Posted. I did not give ITN updating credit to User:AHR13542 because the "updating" edits got reverted for lack of sourcing. --PFHLai (talk) 23:07, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Hello my friends! I have been following this recent episode of Earth quite closely, and I think it's fair to say that the rebellion is pretty much over by now. The Wagner forces have stood down, and are retreating. So, I think the blurb should reflect that, by making it clear that the whole escapade has ended. I may be wrong, and if so I'll be on my merry way. Just a suggestion and a thought. Cheers! :)) PrecariousWorlds (talk) 21:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - RSes are reporting that Prigozhin is withdrawing from Rostov-on-don. Seems like many of the people voting pull in the below discussion aren't realizing that this exists so I'm adding Prigozhin's image as a sort of marker. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 02:43, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support of altblurb 3 - Though I have my qualms about significance overall, that altblurb is the most appropriate to describe the course of events that took place. --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)13:11, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Non-story of no real consequence that is still #1 story in Reuters [18] and Associated Press [19]Russian mercenaries’ short-lived revolt could have long-term consequences for Putin? starship.paint (exalt)14:51, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Or it could not. And either way, covered by ongoing. This is mostly people, Wikipedians, wishing for things to be true that arent true, but this blurb isnt going to make them true. Nothing happened here, we have a blurb that literally says the thing we so breathlessly reported to you as some major story yesterday ended without anything happening today. nableezy - 15:10, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That article you linked does not really make any conclusions, for example it states the rebellion "could have long-term consequences" which indicates things are pretty much up in the air. Nothing could happen like nableezy said, or it might turn into something more. All of that seems like WP:CRYSTAL either way. I agree with pulling the blurb as it seems redundant with the ongoing item, but clearly the blurb has consensus so it does not really matter. - Indefensible (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just to name a few: severely dented Putin’s reputation as a leader who is willing to ruthlessly punish anyone who challenges his authority which is true since Wagners don't have punishments yet and the leader will not face prosecutionSeveral world leaders say even the halt shows something big is coming which is also part of the reason why 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis became ongoing back before the war started.resulted in some of the best forces fighting for Russia in Ukraine being pulled from the battlefield: Prigozhin’s own Wagner troops, who had shown their effectiveness in scoring the Kremlin’s only land victory in months in Bakhmut, and Chechen soldiers sent to stop them on the approach to Moscow. The Wagner forces’ largely unopposed, rapid advance also exposed vulnerabilities in Russia’s security and military forces.Aaron Liu (talk) 19:19, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is still largely unproven conjecture, for example U.S. Secretary of State Blinken said that "It is too soon to tell exactly where they go and when they get there" and if Wagner troops can be moved that quickly then putting them back may not be hard either. We do not yet know whether this event will turn out to have been nothing much or have bigger consequences. - Indefensible (talk) 22:36, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nor did we know when we put 2021 – 2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis into ongoing. I think just that most world leaders think this will amount to something big (like the former) would be enough Aaron Liu (talk) 23:16, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The function of a blurb vs. an ongoing entry are different, and this event is a relatively small element of that larger subject. In any event they both have support, it does not really matter than much either way. - Indefensible (talk) 00:23, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Most world leaders publicly state that this is something big. We have to remember that when it comes to war, the party line from every country is going to have a different take on the events, based on their systemic ideological bias or their need to shape events in their favor. When it comes to ITN and stories like these, I tend to lean the same way as Masem -- we should report the actions iif they are individually noteworthy and significant, and try not to rely on our own biases and conjecture to explain events. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)13:25, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To add to this, a major problem across all of WP which also affects ITN is too many editors writing for the here and now, and not fir the 10-year view. We are supposed to summarize events from a backwards-looking view...Wikinews was created for those that want to write in the here and now. Thats when it comes to ITN we need to focus on the encyclopedic quality of events more than timeliness, and why we can wait to post something to make sure it is an actual, long term impact event than the knee jerk reactions of the media. Masem (t) 13:49, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Still oppose pull. This is a major development that deserves a mention outside of ongoing as it reveals internal tensions and popular anti-support. Yes it may have been posted prematurely, but that doesn't mean we need to pull it now. For one, it means that a lot of Russian citizens got first-hand influence against the war and there may not be popular support for the war (indicated by how the citizens welcomed the coupers) Aaron Liu (talk) 14:52, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't seen any bigger blurb changes suggested at ERRORS. Most of the blurb changes at WP:ERRORS were at most just a word. Also, Sca is banned from this page so they must suggest at ERRORS. Aaron Liu (talk) 21:28, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A nomination which is usually closed if a contentious consensus is reached, usually with the comment "please discuss any issues with the blurb at WP:ERRORS". Bit of a catch-22. I think a standalone discussion is appropriate. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)13:06, 27 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The debris of a Russian cruise missile shot down last night damages a 25-storey building in Kyiv, Ukraine, killing three civilians and injuring eight others. The Ukrainian military says that air defences destroyed 41 out of 51 cruise missiles launched by Russia, as well as two drones. (Reuters)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: French soprano, based in Germany, appearing in Paris, London, Bayreuth, Salzburg. Sorry for being late - too many died in a short time. I'll add recordings. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:43, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
With 647 words of prose, this wikibio is more than long enough to qualify. Footnotes can be found in expected spots. No issues with formatting. This wikibio looks READY for RD to me. --PFHLai (talk) 17:20, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Indian mathematician. Death announced in WP:RS on this day. Article requires some work, but, not terribly far away. Basic edits done. Article meets hygiene expectations for homepage / RD. Ktin (talk) 19:31, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Added refs under 'Published works' where additional citations/cleanup was needed. Believe its in a suitable place for posting. Schwinnspeed (talk) 01:35, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Football player Pharaoh of the Wizards — Preceding undated comment added 19:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Weak support Could use some expansion on what he did outside of soccer, but it's whatever. Looks good enough either way. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800001:41, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I've thought about if it should be removed before since the map hasn't really changed at all since the conflict started, but the revision history is incredibly active. Things are still happening and being documented on Wikipedia. Vanilla Wizard 💙22:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That begs the question, should ITN just mention the page you linked as it's not possible to mention every one by name on the front page? Kcmastrpc (talk) 15:09, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Yes, "tHiS iS oNgOiNg," but this is a major development in the war: one of Russia's closest allies in the war and Putin's biggest buddies being shelled by Russian troops and mutinying against them. I mean, Yevgeny Prigozhin on Telegram went so far to literally to completely dismiss Russia's invasion rationale, saying that Ukraine and NATO were never going to attack Russia, accused Sergei Shoigu, the minister of defense, for fucking up the war effort, and other stuff so shocking, he's now had a criminal investigation opened about him by the Russian Federal Security Service. We've established with the ICC Putin charges, the recent dam explosion, the Crimean bridge and the like that just because an item is ongoing, extremely major news stories can still be blurbed. This seems like a textbox example of major blurb worthy news from an ongoing news event. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 01:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post shortly The top news stories so far seem to be mostly focusing on informational statements made by the Russians. We should wait until more physical effects (such as fighting, arrests, etc.) are seen.
Wait I agree that this is a major development and that this would definitely make it to ITN when things develop further, but I would call for some more time to pass before the situation is a bit more resolved. I would also consider adding "allegedly" before shelled because to the best of my knowledge this is an allegation that Prigozhin shared but is disputed, I may be wrong though. Ornithoptera (talk) 01:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait As stated above, it's unclear precisely what is happening. Obviously fighting between Wagner and the Russian military is noteworthy and likely to attract significant media coverage, but thing are still developing, so it's too early to post a blurb. Gust Justice (talk) 01:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait but eventually Support. Currently developing and the media environment makes it difficult to see what is actually happening. We should probably exclude the alleged shelling, which is disputed and just simply say that the Wagner Group has mutinied. ---- Patar knight - chat/contributions01:46, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose pull. Once reliable sources confirmed that Wagner had taken Rostov-on-Don (Russia's 10th largest city and a major military hub), this was suitable for posting independently of the war in Ukraine ongoing item. It seems with recent developments, the blurb might need to be updated, but the significance threshold for is met. ---- Patar knight - chat/contributions19:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think we need a better blurb. Mutinies seems to be the wrong word. Need something about the increasing rhetoric and accusations and threats about this side. I haven't got the words though. Nfitz (talk) 02:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait for more details/the fog of war to clear, then Support. Yeah, it’s somewhat covered by ongoing, but this is the type of major development that justifies a blurb in itself. The Kip (talk) 02:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
By that logic then we shouldn't have had any ITN on the Ukraine War yet, because they haven't deposed the Ukrainian president. Wagner forces have now moved 100s of kilometres along the road to Moscow, with little to no resistance. But the blurb needs work. I'm not sure why the Russian charges are that relevant at this point in time. Nfitz (talk) 03:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, by this logic you dont breathlessly rush to the main page for every piece of fast changing information that may, and did, amount to nothing. Believe I had that one. nableezy - 14:44, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They’ve effectively seized Rostov-on-Don including the Southern Military District HQ, I fail to see how that has “no significance.” This is arguably the most significant development of the war since the invasion itself. The Kip (talk) 03:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Slight Oppose It hurts me to say this to something so important, but it is Covered by ongoing. Still, I can see why this is important, and I truly hope that this can be an ITN as soon as the situation becomes clear. Once things clear up, I may change my vote to Support. Editor 5426387 (talk) 02:52, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The ongoing covers the invasion of Ukraine. These are Russians fighting (or at least moving unopposed) hundreds of kilometres up the highway to Moscow. It's either notable on it's own, or not; but this isn't part of the Ukrainian War ongoing. Nfitz (talk) 03:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to change my vote to Support due to the fact that the Government of Russia has already stated this as a Coup attempt, which has not really been common since 1993, and that they have captured Rostov-on-Don. Based on this, the event goes far beyond Ongoing. Editor 5426387 (talk) 15:57, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, bordering on Support The situation is probably clear enough to post now, but I'm not positive. I think the notability and news coverage are both there. I should note that the original blurb and alt 1 are way too long. -- Kicking222 (talk) 03:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait We have lots of unclear results, probably another 12 hrs will give us sufficient details to know if this was a successful coup or event that falls outside ongoing. --Masem (t) 03:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support. If I remember correctly, a Russian missile attack got posted here once. This is orders of magnitude more important than those individual attacks, and the article in question is written adequately, especially considering it's such a quickly changing scene. - Mebigrouxboy (talk) 03:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It is NOT obvious that "this is a major development in the war". Only time will tell us that. Lots of time. HiLo48 (talk) 03:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support when ready If what I'm reading is correct, this is an ongoing coup attempt. It's not "covered" by the ongoing, regardless of its impact on the Ukraine War. The article isn't good enough to post as it is. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Needs a better blurb: The shelling may be staged and/or a false flag operation; the arrest warrant is not the main story. The blurb needs to focus on the mutiny. --Carnildo (talk) 04:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I favor altblurb 3: Prigozhin's statements have been about replacing the Minister of Defense, not Putin, so "coup" is overstating things right now. --Carnildo (talk) 05:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait This clearly deserves a blurb, but we need to wait to know what the proper blurb will be. Once that's clear & the article's quality is improved, I'll support a blurb. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 05:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Posted with provisional generic blurb: "In Russia, the Wagner mercenary group mutinies against the government." There is consensus to post in principle, and the article seems to be of reasonable quality now for a breaking news story. Discussion about what the blurb should read can continue. Sandstein 06:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reword The wording of the posted blurb seems inaccurate. "mutinies" is not the right word because Wagner Group is an independent force, not part of the Russian Army. The latter has been trying to get it into the chain of command and this may have provoked the conflict. It's very like the fighting in Sudan which we posted as "Clashes erupt after fighters from the Rapid Support Forces attack several army camps in Sudan." Andrew🐉(talk) 06:57, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Blurb is not even accurate. He is saying he will topple the military leadership, not the government.[20] Specifically he is after the chief of general staff and minister of defence. So these blurb options are poor. It can be summarized as following: Prigozhin makes accusations and blames MoD, says he is after Shoigu (there was a feud between them), criminal charges filed against him, Wagner forces are sent to Rostov-on-Don. No reports of fighting or anything. Mellk (talk) 07:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support Undoubtedly a significant event. A good blurb is hard to write for this developing situation; for the reasons stated by others above, I suggest "... revolts against the military leadership" instead of "... mutinies against the government". Davey2116 (talk) 07:57, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Mutiny is the correct word. Rebellions, revolts, and revolutions have at least a component of the general populace involved. This is a mutiny against the military leadership. Abductive (reasoning)08:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support and include “mutiny” or “revolt”. The blurb will need occasional updating as things develop. Both Putin and Prigozhin are garbage. I hope neither wins. JehochmanTalk11:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Before we go running off to close this because "consensus won't change", I'd just like to ask one question. I understand the timeline of events that took place. What I do not understand is what the impact and consequences of this course of events will be. What is the outlook of the Russo-Ukrainian War as a result of the mutiny? How many troops does this take off the table, and how easily replaceable is this? I'd just like to have some details; I'm agnostic as to whether I support or oppose. Tell me why I ought to support. --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)13:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is history in the making and its significance is political – its effect on hearts and minds and control of Russia. Times Radio reports "Russia coup: reports Putin is 'fleeing' to St. Petersburg as Prigozhin continues towards Moscow". Is this rumour wishful thinking? What will happen when push comes to shove? We shall see... Andrew🐉(talk) 14:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No one really knows what Wagner is doing except Prigozhin, and we can't really predict what the rank-and-file Russians in Russia would do. We'll just have to wait and see. starship.paint (exalt)14:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If I had to guess, since much of the fighting in the recent parts of the war have been done by Wagner and considering that they've occupied much of the area around the Russo-Ukrainian border and cut key supply lines, I would probably suggest that we may see Ukrainian incursions westward as the Russian occupied zone within the country becomes at least somewhat abandoned for the time been, with troops possibly being pulled back or having to deal with supply issues. Additionally, Wagner is already more than halfway along the route to Moscow, and with reports of Russian troops not doing anything to stop them, it seems like the Russian government may just be stacking all its energy in a defense of Moscow (damn, I can't believe I'm using that to refer to an ongoing event). This is all speculation however; Starship.paint (talk·contribs) is right: No one really knows what Wagner is doing except Prigozhin, and we can't really predict what the rank-and-file Russians in Russia would do. We'll just have to wait and see. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 14:57, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is the reason why there were a lot of wait !votes, because we shouldn't be posting stories until there's clear understandings of the ramifications. We don't know what the endgame is here so we should wait until it is clear what the Wagner Group's ultimate goal is. Is it a coup of the entire country or just the military? it is not clear, and thus this posting was premature. Masem (t) 15:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Most others coups or equivalent actions we have posted have been after either after the coup was successfully completed or was successfully quashed. Masem (t) 15:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All of these answers are interesting but it's all rumours and crystal-ballery. In keeping with my principles that post-pull-post is a bad way to operate, I'll accede to the consensus but will note I would have opposed this item. It's a bit like if, during World War 2, we would have reported on the July 20th bombing but didn't actually confirm whether Hitler was alive or dead. The confirmation of an outcome is a vital part of the story, because right now, we don't know what is going to happen and whether this is even a big deal or not. (Yes, I just invoked Godwin's Law for something almost completely unrelated.) Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)15:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is another flaw in ITN that tends to get lost when we're discussing the many, many other flaws. By it's very nature, Wikipedia is a lagging indicator of notability. Content shouldn't be added to Wikipedia until after it's been demonstrated that it's WP:NOTABLE and/or WP:DUE (depending on where you add it). ITN creates a perverse incentive to add content before significance can be demonstrated and then posts this content of questionable significance to the main page. WP:RECENTISM is a bad thing. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 16:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Although I also do not feel this item has demonstrated why it is significant for ITN's purposes, I have to take umbrage with the premises of your argument once again, as I feel it is contrary to how Wikipedia works.
Per WP:RAPID, as there is no deadline, it is recommended to delay the nomination for a few days to avoid the deletion debate dealing with a moving target and to allow time for a clearer picture of the notability of the event to emerge, which may make a deletion nomination unnecessary. That same page also notes that many articles on events are indeed created as they are breaking, in anticipation of notability. The way you say things should be is just now how consensus operates on Wikipedia. There is nothing wrong with creating an article only to delete it later once it turns out the anticipated notability has not come to pass. Yes, we are not a newspaper, but as facts become more readily available about a story, we should trust in our editors to be appropriate stewards to make those decisions as to whether to keep or delete.
I also disagree with the idea that ITN incentivizes unfinished content. We still have guidelines for entry that need to be met before an item can be posted, just as WP:NEVENTS has guidelines as to what merits a notable topic. We should understand that the guidelines are there for a reason, and that taking the stance of a total stonewall against developing news is unproductive and restrictive to our principles of being a living encyclopedia. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)17:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also, if this is true [21] (that Wagner has stopped its advance as as a de-escalation deal has been made), then this was a flash in the pan incident and wouldn't have been on ITN in the first place. Masem (t) 17:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Even if they deescalate, this is still an item of significant interest that we should be posting. Our armchair analysis of what is a "flash in the pan" and what isn't is inappropriate, I believe. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We are never in any rush to post news, which actually gives us time to understand if an event is just a flash in the pan. That's the point of those wait !votes, to make sure this was actually something that seriously altered the direction of the war that was already covered by ongoing. Masem (t) 18:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's a serious event regardless of what happens next and we overinflate our importance and intelligence in claiming that we know what is "significant" and what is not. We're a bunch of Wikipedia editors. We have no geopolitical experts here (I assume). – Muboshgu (talk) 21:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say that articles about current events aren't allowed to be created. I didn't say that we should immediate nominate them for deletion in violation of WP:RAPID. I also didn't say anything about "unfinished content" (all content on Wikipedia is unfinished). The only argument I'm making here is that WP:DELAY is best practice. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:19, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Speculating on possible future implications and their potential impact is basically how we decide significance at ITN. If this speculation isn't allowed, then WP:DELAY/WP:TOOSOON would apply to most current events content. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:24, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't, or it shouldn't be if that's what you do. WP:CRYSTALBALL is mentioned in enough discussions that should be known by now. If based on present known facts you can't decide if something is (not will be) notable, !vote wait. Kingsif (talk) 23:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, this is the approach I'd like to see more often. I'll typically !vote "oppose" or "wait" if present facts don't indicate significance (with the understanding that I'd switch to support once those facts became clear), but I get the impression that a lot of editors !vote support based on speculation that an event will be significant before the facts are clear. Not out of bad faith, of course, but because there's no real guidance at ITN. Just look at how this discussion has developed below when things changed and the significance got called into question after being posted. It shouldn't be how we decide these things, but it often is. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 23:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote the above before the advance on Moscow was halted, or at least before I became aware of that development. But I stand by my support for posting. It's highly relevant world news that lots of people in many countries were/are following closely, and which likely has lasting implications even if the coup were to end completely right now. As far as I know, Wagner still holds the territory of Rostov, which in itself is pretty significant. As for future developments, who knows. I would support updating the blurb, of course.
We posted the 2021 US Capitol riots which really only lasted for one day, involved one building, and weren't organized by a paramilitary force (and it was a good move to post it); I would argue that this is perhaps even more significant. This would be like if a US militia or renegade military group took over a major city (say, Philadelphia), shot down military helicopters, and then started a march on DC, and I'm sure we would post that even if it fizzled out. 70.181.1.68 (talk) 19:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The significance is mostly as its own event - the largest country in the world just went through a military rebellion, and it's hard to overstate what happened. The developments relative to the invasion of Ukraine are covered by the Ongoing item, but what happened inside Russia itself is definitely notable. Looking at the significance through the lens of Ukraine is how we got into this irrelevant debate of subsuming it into a tangentially relevant "Ongoing" news item. Chaotic Enby (talk) 22:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
After reading back over how the consensus was gathered for this item, I now have to agree that pulling is the only appropriate course of action, for the blurb in the ITN template is now incorrect in the face of recent developments. --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)18:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again I ask: What are the impact and consequences of this event? That question needs to be answered in order to justify its significance. The blurb mentions an attempted mutiny but it's not the regular army, and it never seemed that Moscow or Putin was under any direct threat. As long as we are exploring crystal-ball possibilities: Considering that the negotiation came an hour after Ukraine decided to counter-attack in the Donbas region, I'm actually starting to consider the possibility that this was a ruse de guerre. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)18:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also it is not a coup attempt. I am still not sure why "government" has not been changed to "military" in the blurb. Mellk (talk) 18:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pull. I'm not going to debate the notability of this schism, but it's very clear that we still don't know the full extent of these events and that we should have simply waited before posting. The variety of blurb choices reflects this. If as is said this is a notable event, then we should not be afraid of news coverage not being sustained and as such this mutiny will remain eligible for posting. DarkSide830 (talk) 18:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Pull This is still a massive story which is dominating major media like the BBC and NYT. The armistice which has been agreed means that suspense will continue and all eyes will be on further developments. Reverting to make the Chinese restaurant the top story again would be absurd as that was more of a flash in the pan which has already fallen out of the news cycle and is now getting no attention from the media or our readers. Andrew🐉(talk) 18:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pull Over already. Seriously? Little to no active significance now. If we absolutely cannot pull under any circumstances (like us jizzing ourselves, as brilliantly stated by Halo9), then at least change blurb.Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800020:29, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Not a real !vote because I really don't know where I stand on this. Rephrasing the blurb is fine, but I don't think I'd go as far as to agree that this is no longer a notable or consequential story. I was initially inclined to support pulling it when I heard Wagner stood down, but the counterarguments from Muboshgu and Andrew are convincing. It may be true that this could have been a ruse de guerre, but this does not make it unimportant or inconsequential; we can't see through the fog of war what's going to happen next, but we know that something did happen and is happening, and that something was and continues to be major news being closely monitored by major outlets. We may have been collectively duped by Wagner here, but the highly unusual nature of this story contributes to its notability rather than diminishes it. But at the same time, a story being a confusing spectacle doesn't make it important in the long-term, it just makes it interesting. Was it premature to post this? Maybe. But would it right that wrong to pull it now? I don't know if I completely agree with that. Will this be remembered as one of the more unusual moments in the Russo-Ukrainian war in the history books, or will this be forgotten by tomorrow? We don't know, nor should we play armchair strategist and pretend to. I say we just follow the sources. If all the major news outlets are still following this story tomorrow and the day after, then we should leave the story up tomorrow and the day after. If it falls off immediately, that'll be our indication that it was just a blip. I guess you could consider this a keep for now !vote. (got into a whole lot of edit conflicts writing this one up) Vanilla Wizard 💙20:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Pulling now does not really really serve a purpose. But let this strongly remind us that "Ongoing" was created for a purpose and that media sensationalism and hype should be carefully dissected before any ITN postings. I could not post my comment in time which would have stated that anything below a credible coup/coup attempt should be off-limits to be severed from Ongoing at ITN. This is the third-time I am seeing that we have given in to media bias regarding this war: Putin indictment, the dam explosion and now this.
Also, wait comments are not supports, they are an analysis that further significance needs to be proven, as such they should be taken as neutral or negative votes (between this and the dam posting, it appears these votes were factored in as support votes which is incorrect).
Lastly, I would like to ask are we giving in to systematic bias? This is the most covered war/news item on ITN by far despite a prominent Ongoing listing. We did not even fractionally cover the worldwide COVID-19 pandemic as compared to this. Gotitbro (talk) 21:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support and Oppose Pull - I just can't fathom how people don't think this wasn't significant. Nor in the news. Good grief, if two years ago, he'd shot down one Russian plane or helicopter this would be ITN. There's reports they shot down 6 to 12. Nfitz (talk) 22:19, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support per Rockstone35. That the coup attempt/mutiny/whatever you want to call it appears to have failed doesn't mean that this isn't still a significant event with international importance. Ed[talk][majestic titan]22:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pull, obviously Posted wayyyyyy too prematurely (what, 6 hours at ITN/C?). No consensus to post it, either. Meanwhile, User:GreatCaesarsGhost was absolutely right in their posting above which User:Novem Linguae has felt it necessary to collapse. Do the same to this, if you want; it won't make either comment less true. Black Kite (talk)23:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
GreatCaesarsGhost didn't say anything that could be construed as either supporting or opposing pulling, all they said was "lol it'll be really funny when ITN gets shut down forever". That's not constructive. That's disruptive and doesn't belong here. You should be thanking Novem Linguae for improving the overall quality of ITN by shutting down the types of comments that make this a worse environment to edit in. Vanilla Wizard 💙00:06, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pull. Looks like a small spat that the Kremlin has caved into. I agree with the comment that it was posted “wayyyyyy too prematurely”.- SchroCat (talk) 00:26, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose pull In hindsight we probably wouldn't have posted it, and I do think it was posted a tad too early (should have waited a day). But the story itself still is in the news and as such still qualifies in my view. If you look at the media coverage, it received (and still is receiving) significant media coverage. Gust Justice (talk) 01:17, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong post-posting support - largest story in the world, will and definitely have major ramifications even if you entertain the idea of it being a ruse de war. The largest country in the world just experienced a major revolt (which contrary to WaltCip (talk·contribs) stated, did indeed threaten Moscow; they were practically at the gates), leaving Putin humiliates, and definately affecting the course of the war, and yet in classic ITN fashion, we like to pretend that were somehow so much smarter than "the common rabble who are so stupid that they think this is important." I ought to ask, where is the WP:CRYSTAL crowd that has emerged out of the woodwork here anywhere else on ITN? When are y'all this pedantic anytime else? Who's to say that we should be posting the majority of items on ITN considering they are often based upon "this will have historic ramifications and x y and z?" This is the news; things are not automatically clear, that's just the truth. If y'all want ITN to shift into being super timid about posting until everything was %100 clear, than please, open a centralizedWP:Village Pump poll and close it down because you don't have an In the news section of the project, you have Last month's yearly herald. Besides, whose to say that the opposition, who're already cumming at the opportunity to pull (as Fake and Hako have stated on the other side), aren't violating WP:CRYSTAL themselves by claiming there won't be any long term impact?
Additionally, can we please stop immediately insinuating that any admin decision that you didn't like is automatically a supervote? Consensus on this project is determined by the quality of your arguments; maybe its not the admin/closer's being malicious and instead you made weak arguments. Stop acting like petulant children and actually evaluate the discussion before casting wild aspirations; WP:PONY applies here. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 01:32, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
First, you were the nominator so it's assumed you would support. Second, could you maybe trim the length of your posts a bit? If your !vote is longer than one paragraph, consider whether it's too long. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)01:35, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong post-posting support - Just because it's over doesn't mean it never happened. It's the biggest story in the world today. Just update the blurb (there's already another proposal for this) and it will be fine. Johndavies837 (talk) 03:20, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pull in full - shouting into the void at this point in the discussion but this should not have been posted so quickly. Now that it's over, we can rectify our mistake and take it off the main page. It's an important event (not in doubt), but it's covered by ongoing. Anarchyte (talk) 12:07, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looking good This was clearly the major, dominant story yesterday and we don't seem to have a fresher one yet. By running this, ITN looks like it's on the ball. If it were to remove all mention of the matter and just lead with a stale and minor story like the Chinese restaurant, it would give the impression that ITN is controlled by Russian censors (who shut down Google News during this crisis). That would not be a good look. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:23, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose pull. This is a major development that deserves a mention outside of ongoing as it reveals internal tensions and popular anti-support. Yes it may have been posted prematurely, but that doesn't mean we need to pull it now. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:30, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: The South African government just revealed that 31 people are estimated to have been killed last month in a mine from a methane gas explosion. The article may need additional expansion, but seems to be fine otherwise. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 01:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Needs to be noted that I do not see any initial reports circa one month ago about this explosion, which would make this the first reporting and not stale. Masem (t) 01:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
comment: i should note that it does not seem to be currently clear whether or not the miners died in a gas explosion. this notice that the south african government published seems to have deliberately avoided mentioning how they died, and a number of other reliable sources seem to also be similarly uncertain. for example, agence france-presse (via bangkok post)states that "the cause remains unknown". deutsche welle has reported that an explosion occurred, but only states that "[a]t least 31 people are believed to have died in a methane explosion". as there currently is a gas explosion that killed 31 people featured on itn, it is easy to conclude that these miners were also killed in a gas explosion, and although i would presume that it is likely that they did actually die in either such an explosion or its aftermath, i would hesitate to make such an assertion on the main page at this time.please note that the page was moved without discussion by Jim 2 Michael. i had originally titled it "2023 South Africa mining disaster", and am unsure if it should be called "Welkom mining explosion" while it is on the main page. i have started a discussion on this issue here. (i have also removed Jim 2 Michael from the credits as Jim 2 Michael only moved the article and changed the name used in the infobox; Family27390 at least added an infobox and a couple of categories. anyone who believes that Jim 2 Michael's contribution to the article is deserving of credit is welcome to revert my removal.) dying (talk) 04:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support because the death toll makes it notable enough & the article is good enough. It's eligible here because although the explosion happened 5 weeks ago, it was first reported yesterday. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 14:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is not WP:POINTy to cite relevant policies and guidelines in a discussion. That's what you're supposed to do literally everywhere else on Wikipedia. What would be pointy is nominating an article for deletion because I oppose posting it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I assume you're talking about my comment starting with Just a few things to note? We disagreed on what warrants an AfD nomination. I entirely agree with his statement that nominating an article for AfD during the ITN discussion would be disruptive, which is why I've never done that, even if I personally believe that the article is non-notable. I try to avoid AfD as a "solution" in general, preferring to discuss issues at the Village Pump or at WT:ITN so a long term solution can be found. And both of those venues have generally turned up agreement that there is an issue to be solved here, otherwise I wouldn't give it any further thought. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:56, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Prosecutor-General of RussiaIgor Krasnov formally orders the arrest of Yevgeny Prigozhin on charges of calling for an "armed rebellion", with authorities urging Wagner personnel to refuse Prigozhin's "criminal and treacherous orders" and to detain him. The FSB begins a mutiny investigation into Yevgeny Prigozhin. (TASS)(TASS 2)(NPR)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Sunshineisles2, do you think you could find a source for this statement: Beginning in 1964, this award "established to bring a declaration of appreciation to an individual each year that has made a significant contribution to the world of music and helped to create a climate in which our talents may find valid expression."? Please, and thanks. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800015:56, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It appears that the quote is from the citation in the sentence before. I have moved the citation after the second sentence to show where the quote is coming from. Sunshineisles2 (talk) 16:09, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Posted. I didn't give the update credit to User:อมฤตาลัย because the updating edit got reverted for lack of sourcing. --PFHLai (talk) 22:23, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Legendary German tenor saxophonist. When I read the Guardian obit I had the impression that this man deserved to be mentioned, and we should make it possible. Referencing could be fine-tuned. There are more reviews out, and the German Wikipedia has more facts. - I have no more time today. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:38, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A large quantity of the discography isn't covered by the two proceeding sources, and some albums that are mentioned aren't listed. Anarchyte (talk) 11:29, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps some trimming is in order (and maybe the section header can be changed to "selected discography") while this nom is still eligible? Sorry, gotta stay offline the rest of the day, so i can't help much here. Good luck. -- PFHLai (talk) 15:28, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I reduced to those sourced by the two sources. Need sleep. If it doesn't work I hope we can move him to the next day when his death became known. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:38, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support. Reasonably covers his career, well cited, and updated with his death. There were a few one sentence sections about his personal life, but I've combined them. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:10, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support Article appears to be well-cited and holistic in coverage. A bit underlinked, but not a big deal for our purposes. Curbon7 (talk) 20:02, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Considering that four of the five passengers have articles of their own, I'm WP:BOLDLY proposing that we alter the blurb to include them per WP:ITNRDBLURB and the "death as the main story" clause. There are three options; one that lists all notable individuals, one that links "five people" to the section of the article including everyone that was onboard, and the current blurb. EDIT: I've just realized that somehow I overwrote the exact same nomination by an IP, so I've combined their proposal as well. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 21:26, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Going by past, that plane crash that killed several notable members of a football team, we shouldn't include multiple names, since they can easily be found through the link. Masem (t) 22:00, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The blurb is fine as it is, per Masem. And I would IAR oppose the articles being placed in RD as the persons in question, as they were just created and likely would not have been had they not bee victims of the ITN item that is already posted. I guess Harding would be a reasonable RD nom, but really only him. DarkSide830 (talk) 22:09, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I once worried a day like this would come, mostly the "football team paradox" where there is a plane crash killing 150 people and an entire football team of, say, Liverpool F.C. perishes in a blaze. What is there to do? But in this case, given that these articles were just recently created, I agree with DarkSide830 that these are not eligible for RD. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)22:17, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I also think it would be excessive to list the people in the blurb. I suppose you could separately nominate Harding and Nargeolet for RD. I assume all four are included in a "victims of the Titan implosion" sub-list at Deaths in 2023, which is really the most suitable. Good faith nom, but suggest close. Kingsif (talk) 22:27, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A way to look at this...all four with articles are primarily notable with their association with this disaster. Readers are more likely to know of the disaster than the individuals, so the disaster link serves well to cover all. Now if for some reason Bill Gates was a passenger, his name goes far beyond the disaster and that would be a case we'd highlight since readers would be likely searching on both. Masem (t) 22:35, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Besides the teenager, one could argue that all four were notable in their fields, but most people hadn't heard of them. But I think we can all agree there's a snowball's chance in hell they're getting blurbed either individually or added to the Titan blurb. Kingsif (talk) 22:43, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
By that logic, we shouldn't have posted the 2023 Odisha train collision from a while back, seeing how many disasters in India have very little future impact. I'm not saying we shouldn't have posted it, just that your rationale that "every disaster needs impact regardless of death toll" is a bit too strict. Tube·of·Light10:24, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That one appears to have notable political ramifications (a case for WP:LASTING) and affected travelers across India (a case for WP:GEOSCOPE), so it's presumed notable. "Every disaster needs impact regardless of death toll" isn't too strict, it's what the WP:NEVENTS guideline is there to tell us. Wikipedia is not a news service, and news stories should not have articles unless they have some historical significance that warrants inclusion in an encyclopedia. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:33, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support If this was the US/canada/another western country whose citizens dominate this board this would have been posted immediately Daikido (talk) 08:27, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If I am not mistaken (I tend to frequently misread text online) most of those opposes in the Paris explosion are because there were no deaths confirmed. If there were a gas explosion that killed 30 Parisians, that would definitely be posted (though probably not "immediately"). Tube·of·Light10:29, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It was a similar explosion and a similar number of people got hurt. The exact death toll should not be a major factor in this as we're not here simply to count deaths in some mechanical way. If we followed policy WP:NOTNEWS and WP:NEWSEVENT then none of these events would be getting articles and attention. The encyclopedic topic is gas explosion not every instance of same. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:35, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A death toll of over 30 is very different to zero. If the Paris explosion had killed 30 people, it'd be a major world news story; likewise if an explosion due to any cause had killed that many people anywhere in the developed world. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 11:43, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would actually support stronger adherence to NOTNEWS and NEVENT here - this is not like the 2020 Beirut explosion in terms of impact and scale - sadly, an accident took the lives of 30-some people, but in the long term this event will have almost no long-term impact, while the Beirut explosion is still a prime example of many hazards. Masem (t) 12:10, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It should be an easy problem to fix. Inform anyone who cites "death toll" or "casualties" in a discussion that their !vote will be ignored for being baseless as far as policy is concerned, and then delete or (preferably) merge any event article that can't affirmatively demonstrate that it meets the requirements of WP:PERSISTENCE, WP:LASTING, or WP:GEOSCOPE. Unfortunately, there are too many editors arguing "it's flashy and it saw news coverage, therefore it's an encyclopedic topic" and there are too few closers willing to weigh !votes based on policy like they're supposed to. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:24, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you claim that death toll has no relevance to notability? Many articles are notable due to death tolls & many are posted to ITN because of that. For example, had the death toll of the Robb Elementary School shooting been 2 instead of 22, there's no chance that it'd have been posted. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 09:39, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Robb Elementary School shooting is notable because it caused the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act (meeting WP:LASTING) and still receives retrospective coverage after there were no more breaking updates (meeting WP:SUSTAINED). I say death toll has no relevance to notability because there is no notability guideline that says "events with at least 20 deaths are presumed notable". If you think that should be a factor, then open up an RfC to add that language to a notability guideline. Until then, it's irrelevant. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 14:30, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Lean support. As opposed to the previous nomination, this one caused significant damage and casualties. However, it fails in quality; would require cleanup before further action can be taken; and please, don't reignite baseless accusations of sinophobia. Cheers, gavre (al. PenangLion) (talk) 08:32, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, per other comments, this event caused significant casualties and damage. It needs some work, but many articles on emerging events do - especially those on the other side of the globe. Glman99 (talk) 14:38, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We should not play favourites contrary to NPOV by reporting one city but not the other. Note that there was also a recent gas explosion in Kiev. Perhaps a combination blurb might be posted? Andrew🐉(talk) 15:02, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Now in Andrew's defense, before some of y'all violate him, this doesn't seem to have anything to do with the war, per the source and other coverage of the incident ([22][23]). In fact, the actual reason why this is a dopey point is that the explosion killed 3 people; a mere 10th of the amount killed at the Yichuan barbeque restaurant. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 15:06, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Kyiv explosion doesn't have an article, so it's not eligible to be nominated. The Paris explosion discussion has been rejected because it didn't kill anyone. The 3 explosions are unconnected, so it doesn't make sense for there to be a combined blurb. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 15:24, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Revisiting this today, it doesn't appear that there's any detailed follow-up in the media. It's a wire story that went round the world once but that's all. And checking for more gas explosions, I find a report of another one of similar scale in South Africa. Such accidents seem commonplace. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:35, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Agree with Thebiguglyalien regarding WP:EVENTCRIT. It could not more closely match this guidance "Routine kinds of news events (including most crimes, accidents, deaths, celebrity or political news, "shock" news, stories lacking lasting value such as "water cooler stories," and viral phenomena) – whether or not tragic or widely reported at the time – are usually not notable unless something further gives them additional enduring significance." GreatCaesarsGhost15:45, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Opposewhy putting the focus on an explosion when many more people are celebrating the Dragon Boat Festival? The Dragon Boat Festival would have been a better nomination.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 15:57, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's like we should not blurb the winner of a tournament but the brawl that occurred during the tournament. The world has also nice things to report in which millions participate on not only tragedies that concern a few people. If you google 20< deaths you'll find all the time find something. What moves the world? Some deaths or 100< Millions people celebrating? Paradise Chronicle (talk) 01:38, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I hate playing this card, but we absolutely would have posted an accident with 31 deaths in the West (we posted the Canada highway accident with only half). Why is this one not significant? DarkSide830 (talk) 16:28, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per DarkSide830. I also feel there’s a pro-Western bias here. We’ve posted similar incidents with much lower death toll in the past. Why is this not significant?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 17:04, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Unusual, a high death toll and in a public place. No doubt it would get posted if it occurred in the west. It's not at all comparable to Paris and Kyiv. Johndavies837 (talk) 18:28, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Unusual event, and one with such a high death toll would surely be posted if it happened in a western country. Systemic bias. Davey2116 (talk) 19:04, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support as per the arguments of the previous supporters. 30 dead is a high number; if the Paris gas explosion had resulted in 30 dead, wouldn't we have posted it? You know we would have. For those who say "this has no long-term impact" - well, that's a pure "Crystal Ball" statement... I would on the contrary expect that such a major incident will lead to a tightening of restaurant and gas-related regulations in China. Sadly, it may even have more impact than the 500 presumed dead in the Greek migrant ship disaster. Khuft (talk) 19:32, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I supported on the basis that the quality would be deemed adequate by the community. It's fine for me, but I know others are probably a bit more stringent in terms of quality than I would be. Khuft (talk) 19:45, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I realise I didn't add the quality aspect to my post previously - but anyway, to be clear: Support assuming quality is deemed acceptable. Khuft (talk) 19:47, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think they've made it quite clear that their stance is "multiple people died so it's obviously notable and significant". Fortunately, consensus on Wikipedia is held to a higher standard, so arguments to this effect and WP:WHATABOUTX arguments won't be seriously considered in any fair close. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 19:50, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, you've cited EVENTCRIT how many times recently? If you believe these items not sufficient to have pages, then why haven't you pursued their deletion? DarkSide830 (talk) 20:37, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Because I'd like to take the least disruptive approach possible in addressing issues like this; nominating an article for deletion while it's under active discussion at ITN is not the way to go. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:40, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Events that occur routinely in a place might be considered ineligible for ITN (routine gun violence in a place rife with it, terrorist attacks in conflict ridden zones etc). Highly destructive explosions in restaurants in China are not a usual occurence and with the article being upto par this should not be held up. If its felt that the article is not encyclopedically notable for enwiki's purpose then AfD exists but that is not within the purview of ITN (an AfD nom would immediately hold this up from posting, so anyone proposing that should pursue it there). Gotitbro (talk) 10:09, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Regardless of the growing support to post, this article is by no means ready. It's more or less 8-12 disjointed sentences. Needs work before posting can be considered. Anarchyte (talk) 10:29, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't describe the writing as disjointed, though I can see the case for saying the article should be improved before posting. The problem is its lack of editors. Many millions of people find five people being killed in the Atlantic to be very interesting & important, but a comparatively tiny number are interested in incidents in which over 30 people were killed in China, over 40 in Uganda & over 40 in Honduras. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 11:25, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Ingenuity (talk·contribs), welcome to ITN and congratulations on you're recent RFA, but in the future, when posting an item, please remember to mark the header with (Posted) (and failed discussions as (Closed) and withdrawn as (Withdrawn) and so forth). Thanks! - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 01:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Adding to this, @Ingenuity, please give both Ainty Painty and I credit using the “give credit” button. It ain’t much, but it means a lot (at least to me). Thanks! Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800002:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ITN does not care about popularity with readership. This has been stated multiple times, that's one way we differ from being a news ticker. ITN is not TOP25 either. Masem (t) 15:24, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think I see the issue now -- the posting was quite late in the day -- at 23:03. There would then ony be one hour for any increase in readership to be reflected in the day's stats. As the baseline for this topic is so low, we will see the effect of the posting in the next day's stats. Andrew🐉(talk) 15:52, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The readership on day #3 of the story jumped up to 22,590. As the baseline readership was about 2K, this shows that posting this as the lead blurb on ITN attracted an additional 20K readers.
For some context, note that the top read article yesterday was Wagner Group with over 2 million readers. That's now the top blurb on ITN but the bulk of that readership will be going direct to the article rather than via the main page.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose. No deaths, and there is barely any content in the article, which brings up the question of article notability in general. DarkSide830 (talk) 20:18, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait This happened two and a half hours ago. While the details and notability of some things are understood instantly, this is more like 'there's a fire in Paris, not sure what happened'. Maybe it's something, maybe it isn't. Kingsif (talk) 20:22, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is the type of news story (some injuries, minimal damage, simple accident) that we should not have an article per NEVENT. --Masem (t) 20:55, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Unusual but not a major story, except for the fact it happened in Paris. There's actually a breaking news story right now about a gas explosion in China which has killed 31 people at a restaurant. I think that one would be more suitable for ITN. Johndavies837 (talk) 03:06, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Another week, another maritime disaster. This time, up to 40 people are feared dead after a dingy carrying migrants off the infamously fatal West Africa to Canaries route sunk. The article is for the most part decent, except the Aftermath section needs expansion. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 18:55, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
*Oppose While the disaster is tragic, it’s the fifth such event for which we have an article this year. Since it’s smuggling, the practice is illegal, boats are overloaded and they eventually sink. As long as there are no stricter controls in the Mediterranean Sea, this practice will continue and such disasters will likely happen.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:11, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It's tragic, but like mass shootings in the US, migrants ships sinking en route to Europe is a story we all know now. I'm not going to call it routine, it's not that level, but it's the same story with different specifics. Before anyone gets righteous about posting the Titanic submersible, when's the last time one of those disappeared? Also opposing on quality, with the article reading somewhat scare headline-y. Kingsif (talk) 20:19, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - the idea that four rich people voluntarily going to the bottom of the ocean in a high school level science project and going missing should be featured but 40 migrants drowning should not be is one of the sillier things Ive seen on this page. nableezy - 12:40, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral, but not inherently opposed to posting. I'm of two minds: one, I agree with Kingsif in that migrant ships capsizing is an unfortunately all too common occurrence. However, the other thought is that not posting this could lead to a perception of undue weight on the main page: that we're willing to post a five man $250,000 per ticket submarine missing but not a human rights problem. I'm concerned that at least while we have Titan on the main page, we should be more open to posting other disappearances and crises before returning to regularly scheduled arguments of routine. Anarchyte (talk) 12:59, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But thats not the world we live in, and what we have now is a pretty blatant example of the systemic bias of Wikipedia's editor base. nableezy - 15:22, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While I wouldn't have posted the submersible based solely on the impact of the event (and, indeed, did not voice my support during the discussion), this has far, far more to do with the bias of the news media than the editor base. Many media outlets have a liveblog pushing out articles about the Titan, and that's not the case here. Kicking222 (talk) 15:56, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support but only ad hoc. My reasoning that such incidents are quite common still stands but, after noticing that the missing submersible with billionaires aboard is on the main page, this should be posted to balance the scales. I don’t like a world in which aircrafts, submarines and politicians are involved to save the lives of five rich people, whereas no-one cares about the lives of dozens of poor people who want to migrate to Europe for a better life.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 15:59, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I get the argument that these events are relatively common, but I stull find it hard to justify us having posted the sub incident but not this when it involves 8x more people. DarkSide830 (talk) 16:26, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per above. I realize that the argument of "we posted X so we must post Y" usually isn't sufficient, but in this case it'd just be such a bad look if we posted the five wealthy people's $250k joyride and didn't post this. I would like the article to be more fleshed out though. Davey2116 (talk) 17:39, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'd need to look at precedents to consider whether we'd post something like this absent the Titan, but if the comparison to that is the only reason to support, then I'd oppose per Kingsif. Our primary concern should be maintaining consistent standards, not optics. {{u|Sdkb}}talk19:04, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Just as we don't post every mass shooting in the US, we do post those that result in massive casualties. I think we should apply the same logic in this case - migrant boat disasters that result in massive casualties should be posted, assuming quality of the article holds up.Khuft (talk) 19:36, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment to expand on where I wrote Before anyone gets righteous about posting the Titanic submersible, when's the last time one of those disappeared? - if people think part of ITN's purpose is to make sure Wikipedia doesn't look like it dislikes migrants, someone can judge that argument. But if we're mostly pointing readers to articles they might like to read related to news, I don't think most people will be bothered with the article on this; it's the same story, is all. But I suppose there's already talk discussion on ITN's purpose... Kingsif (talk) 22:16, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Kingsif. This type of events have been happening multiple times annually for the past few years and there is no reason to believe that they will become less common anytime soon for many reasons. We should limit posting migrant boat disasters around Europe to ones with at least 50 people dead or missing, taking into account the ones we have posted before. StellarHalo (talk) 06:59, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Kingsif. The Titan's incident opened up a can of worms that revealed how unregulated and unsafe the industry was, while the world already knows these dangers on migrant boats. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:23, 25 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Seven people are killed and seven more injured when a police car and a public service vehicle are targeted by two roadside bombings at two different locations in Mandera County, Kenya. (Reuters)
Hunter Biden, son of United States PresidentJoe Biden, is provided a plea deal for misdemeanor offenses relating to failing to pay federal taxes. A further offense of owning a firearm while lying about being an illegal drug user will be dismissed, following a two-year probation. (The Guardian)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: German music pedagogue, known as the first wife and muse of Karlheinz Stockhausen. I expressed may reservation for the source on the talk, but it it's good enough for her article, it should be good enough for the Main page. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gerda Arendt, hope all is well. I was looking at this one and it doesn't seem like any other English language news outlet has reported this one. Just want to double check that slippeddisc.com is a WP:RS for this topic. Please confirm. Alternately, are there other German language WP:RS that are confirming this news? That should be fine as well. Ktin (talk) 03:31, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: 41 people were killed in a women's prison in Honduras. Most were burned to death. The article is in need of serious expansion (in fact, I literally just created it), but should be significant to post. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 21:56, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The current second paragraph of the background seems completely unnecessary as it has nothing directly to do with what led to the riot. It wasn't about rival gangs in different prisons, or contraband or guards or anything like that. --Masem (t) 02:36, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't about rival gangs
It literally was; the source of the riot was over the rivalry between MS-13 and the Barrio 18, which was present in this prison. The riot started when members of the latter opened fire and set fires around members of the former. Stuff like this, while typically nowhere near this scale, is common in Honduras, so I don't see why it hurts to have a background giving in depth information about Honduras' flawed prison system, which elsewhere is nearly universally mentioned in coverage of this story (DW, BBC, NYT, Reuters, AP, etc.). - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 03:42, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see why it hurts to have a background giving in depth information about Honduras' flawed prison system is basically a POV statement. I don't see the value of immediate discussion of the flawed prison system unless it clearly is the direct cause of the event. Masem (t) 13:31, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is a new topic and the nominator and others have gotten this to a respectable state quite quickly so that the reader will not be disappointed or surprised by the article. Its importance is debatable but seems comparable with the existing blurbs which are staler. The blurb which would be displaced by this is over a week old. Andrew🐉(talk) 07:12, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on notability. Thanks for the expansion, but such events are often mentioned in a side comment or the trivia section. That it is included in the Americas (and not the world) by Reuters and the Guardian lets me doubt it is notable enough. It's an event in a prison that doesn't affect many people. If a policy change derives from it, it might be worth an article long enough for DYK.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 10:38, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support we had a flood of support for a monarch dying of old age, and a relatively obscure American football player, but not when over 40 people die in violent and unusual circumstances; we posted a road traffic accident in Canada with less than a third of the casualties. Also this was reported worldwide, far outside the Americas and even the Spanish speaking regions. Abcmaxx (talk) 11:18, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support - Decent depth of coverage; significant impact based on those affected; probably limited consequences as far as a reaction from the government due to the recurrent nature of prison gangs; and a decently written Wiki article. --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)12:53, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support because the article is good enough & the death toll & gang involvement make it easily important enough. This is far more notable than the natural death of elderly, long-retired Jim Brown, who certainly didn't meet the transformative requirement for death blurbs. This riot is also far more important than the 2023 Titan submersible incident, a minnow of a story that much of the media & many millions of people are inexplicably obsessed with as though 500 people were onboard rather than 5. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 14:52, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Knightoftheswords281: Okay, it isn’t per WP:COI but per “conflict of interest”. Marking your own nomination as “Ready” is a classical example of a conflict of interest and should be avoided (compare this to closing a nomination in which you’ve participated or posting a nomination in which you’ve voted). I was reproached for doing the same thing in the past.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:08, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment this has enough support to be posted, but I'm leery about this line: "Public Prosecutor's Office spokesperson Yuri Mora stated that the government could not confirm specifics regarding the incident at the moment." I just updated the death toll with a source (it's 46 now, up from 41), and I'm not sure the article adequately covers the (horrifying) specifics that have emerged (see e.g. AP, Guardian ). If someone can finish updating, I'll post. Ed[talk][majestic titan]15:37, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: A pretty historic step for LGBTQ+ and Human Rights in general in Soviet sphere of influence. User:PrinceofPunjab 11:22 20 June 2023 (UTC)
Comment Whilst this is unimportant and a bit of a nitpick, according to the UN geoscheme (and Estonia's Wikipedia article) Estonia is in Northern Europe, not Central Europe, though other definitions of course include it in Central or Eastern Europe for historical/cultural reasons. By my count it's the sixth Northern European (basing off of the geoscheme) country to legalize same-sex marriage. Sorry for the tangent, but the blurb may need changing depending on where we want to place Estonia. Good day! 90.133.49.134 (talk) 12:14, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have changed to it to Post-soviet state to better reflect the significance of this story.–PrinceofPunjab (talk) 12:39 20 June 2023 (UTC)
Comment Not entirely opposed to this, but our article states that it won't take effect until 1 January 2024. -- AxG/✉15:09, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I and many others have previously nominated abolitions of the death penalty and decriminalisations of various nature, including same-sex marriages and they were all overwhelmingly rejected; therefore unless we choose to change precedent then I fail to see how this is any different, especially as nearly all European countries have movements striving for the same if they have not already done so. Abcmaxx (talk) 15:55, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose because many countries have changed their laws in regard to LGBT issues & many other things regarding various demographic groups. Being the first country in the world to do something is often important enough, but being the first Baltic/Slavic/Mediterranean/C American/SE Asian/C African etc. doesn't make it important. If we posted all these sorts of law changes, they'd always be present on ITN. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 19:53, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Is “the first post Soviet state” or “the first Baltic state” really that important? I don’t think so. The former refers to a country that ceased to exist more than 30 years ago and the latter is a geographical area consisting of only three countries. Otherwise, it seems like a routine thing.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 21:27, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose While I'm happy this happened, there's a much higher bar on ITN to post such legalizations (ex. the first in a historically-hostile region such as the Middle East or East Africa); the first Baltic/post-Soviet state is a lower bar, especially when much of Europe has already done so. The Kip (talk) 21:47, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose on quality Quite a few unsourced statements in the prose and the Stage productions section is entirely unsourced. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800017:53, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update - The article, including the Work section, is now fully sourced. Several more citations have since been added and now the prose does not contain any unsourced statements. The list of early UK stage productions from 1949 on has been moved to the talk page and will only be moved back into the article if and when appropriate sourcing can be found. There are links to Broadway and Off-Broadway databases that list other productions he appeared in in the US and the Work section and Filmography are all now fully sourced. The article looks to be in good shape overall now and given its B-class, and with all the references, I think it's of high quality overall.2001:BB6:4E52:7D00:28BA:F4D6:819F:68F6 (talk) 23:11, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Schwede66, I found one tag, and a review, however without a year, other sources have both 1992 and 1993, and does it matter? I found a ref for the day of birth. The NDR ref above has no day of death, but the Vienna State Opera ref has one. I'd like to check the 10-years-old refs but not today. Please look first at the composer below whose birthday is today. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:58, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Ed, but my comment above was that I needed sleep before checking the old refs. I went over them now, and found things to add. - Next time, please credit ;) - I had to dig in the archive to find out when she was added to ITN. - The composer, whose birthday was yesterday, didn't make it although he seemed more "ready" to me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:13, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Biggest news story in the US and Canada, front page of The New York Times, CNN, CBC, The Toronto Star, AP, and even international outlets like BBC, France24, The Independent, El Pais, DW, Le Monde, etc. Even if they are rescued and don't die, the story in of itself is still noteworthy of inclusion on ITN, especially considering that our readers are definitely looking for this on Wikipedia (I mean, just look how many vandals are in the page's history). Also a good chance to feature a GA article on ITN (that being Wreck of the Titanic). Plus, something that makes this a little unique is that one of the believed passengers himself is notable enough to have his own article (Hamish Harding). The article needs a little more expansion, but its not unworkable. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 22:19, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support altblurb I was about to nominate the article myself. I know some people are going to object, but it's a highly unusual incident, involves a famous wreck, has at least one notable passenger and it's making headlines everywhere. No doubt there will be a lot of coverage, regardless of the outcome. The nominated article is a bit short but not too bad. However, I think the blurb should mention the Titanic. Johndavies837 (talk) 22:32, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I added an altblurb which includes the Titanic (although I see the nominator has already edited the original include Titanic). The altblurb is a little less wordy. Johndavies837 (talk) 22:49, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait Until we have an idea of which way this resolves. If rescued, then the story is the rescue (similar to the Thailand cave rescue). If not, then this would fall under the unusual death of a notable person like with the Kobe Bryant helicopter crash (assuming he was on board, that doesn't seem confirmed) --Masem (t) 22:56, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hamish Harding (the one pictured) is confirmed by his family, according to the BBC, and also named by Sky News and The Guardian (among others). I think it's the other person mentioned on the page, Stockton Rush, who isn't clearly confirmed yet. Johndavies837 (talk) 23:08, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully, while Harding does have an article, can we really put him in the same category as Bryant. Seems like he's mostly notable for being...a tourist. DarkSide830 (talk) 00:14, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If the worst, this would fall into "death is an unusual circumstance", it would not be blurbing for importance. Masem (t) 01:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We have posted, for example, the death of a notable givt official in a military helicopter crash, and the death of the soccer team with multiple notable people from that airline crash. "Unusual death" has never required the person to be important, just notable. Masem (t) 14:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, we're really posting this alreeady? This just reads as a human interest story at the moment, and likely will remain one. "Front Page Coverage" wins again I guess. DarkSide830 (talk) 17:02, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait per above. Still lots to play out, if they're hopefully found alive it probably doesn't merit a blurb barring a rescue attempt by unprecedented means. The Kip (talk) 23:57, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait we don't even know if these people are dead, and even if they are, stuff like this happen all the time. Either way, this is not ITN-worthy, but I'd say that we should wait to see if they are found alive or dead, and, if it is missing for more than 96 hours, then sure. Editor 5426387 (talk) 00:03, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait: As others said, it's a current/ongoing event. The situation can change at any notice hence the article can be unreliable at the moment. Rager7 (talk) 00:23, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait - I'm concerned about the claim of being "front page news". For example, Toronto Star's most recent edition contained 3 stories (sports, local mayoral election, and bigotry around bathrooms). Do we mean their website? Their "front page" has 80 stories on it. And this isn't at the top (which remains to be illegal Chinese interference in Canadian elections, or second (which is the bus crash we discuss below). Often the top stories quickly drop down the page, as some highlight recent news. It's a non-story if they find it floating on the surface somewhere. Nfitz (talk) 00:59, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As we say on the instruction page, we do not use location of a story on dynamic websites to judge importance. Additionally, today is a slow news day, so there's little else taking up top news. Masem (t) 01:45, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Still, the fact that its frontpage news clearly demonstrates significance. Besides, the part you're quoting doesn't even explicitly forbid using that argument, it just says that it cannot be used as a primary argument. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 01:50, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, just because a story is on the front page doesn't mean it is encyclopedically significant, particularly when it comes to politics. This is the systematic bias related to mainstream news sources we purpose fight against. Masem (t) 01:54, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've been hearing this mantra about how ITN is supposed to combat the systemic bias from the mainstream media for a while, especially from you, but I can't find anything on WP:ITN or its subpages where this is even semi-concretely defined. In fact, I somewhat doubt that, considering that if you were to use that argument anywhere else on the project, you'd get laughed out the room per WP:RS.
I guess I should maybe clarify/rollback some of my comments and state that I don't think that having a story on the front page = noteworthiness, just that it implies it (@The Kip:). Just that it implies it. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 02:00, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The entire encyclopedia is to fight systematic bias per WP:BIAS. Its while WP:NOT#NEWS and WP:NEVENTS exist. And while we may not explicitly state it in the ITN guidelines, it should be clear from all past discussions that we've had in the last few months that simple mass media coverage is not reason to post on ITN. Masem (t) 02:21, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If we ran this page solely based off what was front-page news, we'd become inundated with celebrity gossip extremely quickly.
I understand your passion for ITN, but you're quickly establishing a reputation as believing comparatively minor stories and figures to be truly newsworthy, in contrast to the long-held standards here. The Kip (talk) 01:56, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
in contrast to the long-held standards here
The issue is that there aren't standards, not anymore at least. ITN in 2013 used to post head of state changes. Today in 2023, its not uncommon for the fate of a nominated story to fall on which part of the world was asleep at the time of nomination. I'm (just like almost everyone else here) pushing for defined standards to exist, but no one here can agree and every attempted significance standard eventually falls to the wayside (e.g, see WaltCip (talk·contribs)'s recent significance criteria). Doesn't help that ITN reform is a low priority of the outside community. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 02:04, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you are on Wikipedia looking for "defined standards", you're in the wrong place. We work by consensus, in all parts of the encyclopedia, not just ITN. Yes, we do rely on an unwritten casebook of shared knowledge of what we usually post and don't post, but in discussions of trying to write anything down, editors are wary that that type of list would be gamed, no matter how its framed. So we go by consensus. Masem (t) 12:17, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As much as I feel disappointed that DICE did not catch on, I still happily use it when judging contentious nominations. The concept of assessing depth, impact, consequences and encyclopedicness(?!) is a good way to outline a constructive and thoughtful rationale that admins can then take into account when weighing consensus on the strength of arguments, for it already has its roots in existing Wikipedia policies (particularly WP:NOTNEWS). It also helps provide context to some people who may have reached premature conclusions about an item's significance. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)17:50, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If we are talking the front pages of websites, User:Knightoftheswords281, this seems pretty meaningless when we have sites like BBC have 80+ articles on webpage, and more-and-more websites are showing stories regionally and based on the User's interests. That being said, today's actual front page did indeed have the Titanic on it. It also had a huge profile on Josh Matlow; I'll have to prepare an ITN nomination for the result of 2023 Toronto mayoral by-election, as the mayor of the City of Toronto is by far the largest single vote in the nation - and a higher population than Lithuania. Also featured are the TDSB's enrollment issues and TCHC's crumbling infrastructure (that's probably an ongoing). Oddly, it's not on the front page of The Globe and Mail despite being a slow news day; it finally appears on page A8, behind such ITN stories as Tibetan Schools, Ukraine war, Boris Johnson, the assassination of Hardeep Singh Nijjar (why isn't that an RD - go for it - I'm not joking), Bill C-18 (that really might be ITN one day), the Chatham Coloured All-Stars and the assassination of Julius Cæsar. Nfitz (talk) 03:04, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Thanks for breaking the dam, Hawkeye7. We don't need an outcome to post a quality and in demand article to ITN. Posting this is the point of why we're doing this. Blurbs can and will be updated as the reliably sourced facts are. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:12, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The disappearance is the current major story. Per Muboshgu, an update can be posted whichever way the story ends. Mjroots (talk) 05:31, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose What is the story here? That the submersible has been missing for one whole day? Nothing significant has happened as of yet beyond rescue efforts being initiated. Did we for instance feature Malaysia Airlines Flight 370? We can't predict which specific missing stories snowball beyond the usual ones (even then this hasn't), we thus can only post outcomes and no official statements exist as to that right now. Gotitbro (talk) 05:46, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It has already 'snowballed beyond the usual ones' because it's being widely reported around the world. It's... In The News. No matter how it ends, it will be notable. And I fail to see the comparison but yes, Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 was featured. Johndavies837 (talk) 05:56, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeswedid (btw, sidenote, why did admins/closers of old ITN discussions use square brackets instead of parentheses? Completely fucked up the links above for some time. And we were doing this for years on end?) - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 06:08, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the follow-up, striking an outright oppose. But would still like to wait for some statement from the authorities. Gotitbro (talk) 08:03, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Notice those MH370 were all after a definitive answer was made, even though the disappearance of the flight was in the news for some time before that. Masem (t) 12:18, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support The title of the article isn't obvious and there's currently a move proposal. One of ITN's functions is navigation – helping readers to find topics which are in the news. They will be looking for the article now and so waiting is not helpful. Andrew🐉(talk) 06:25, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support The disappearance and the rescue efforts are "in the news". The Guardian has even started a live ticker on the top of their website, next to the Ukraine war update. It's a sui generis news item that is obviously captivating the interest of many people. I also agree with previous commentators that users are bound to search for more information on this submersible, so we should make it easily accessible. Khuft (talk) 08:07, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. ITN is not a news ticker, and although worrying for the people involved, this is really a flash-in-the-pan incident, unlikely to have lasting impact and also not meeting the WP:MINIMUMDEATHS threshold. — Amakuru (talk) 08:23, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it exists. Everyone knows it exists, because we all apply it regularly here, it's just that like everything in ITN, nobody wants to write it down. — Amakuru (talk) 15:39, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Amakuru I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong but I don't understand why you're linking to a page that says exactly the opposite. It doesn't help your argument, does it...? BorgQueen (talk) 18:03, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That page was created disruptively and probably should not have that redirect. WP:MINIMUMDEATHS has been redlinked for years intentionally. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)19:31, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Some people apply a minimum death criterion, others don't, but the often-used redlink redirect should not have been pointed to an essay with must one person's perspective on this. It should be deleted. — Amakuru (talk) 22:32, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support alt blurb Whether they're found alive or dead, the sub's disappearance is in the news. The article has enough details & references to be posted. I prefer the alt blurb b/c it's more concise. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 11:22, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support alt blurb Target article looks ready (I saw no sourcing issues), and this is clearly a notable (and honestly, a bit unusual) disappearance. Whatever happens in the end, this falls under ITN with all the currently known facts and details. Vida0007 (talk) 12:27, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support alt blurb The media is hyping the hell out of this story, and time is running out. We had best post it while it's at the peak of its notability. The newsworthiness naturally will recede if we choose to wait until the outlook becomes terminal. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)13:02, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support wait for what exactly? this story is captivating the attention of the world due to its novelty and grim reminder that the ocean doesn't care about our technology in the past nor in the present. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:21, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Waiting for them to die. As someone said earlier: if they're hopefully found alive it probably doesn't merit a blurb barring some startling innovation in the rescue effort. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)13:50, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Level of media coverage is not a metric used by ITN to determine significance. Large media coverage should be reflected in the quality of the article incorporating all those sources. Masem (t) 20:48, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Take away the ridiculous level of media coverage & what makes this important enough for ITN? Vessels with more people onboard often go missing. We don't post the vast majority. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 21:02, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pull - hwhat. Person(s) on expensive and risky adventure see said risks come to fruition is your story here? The level of coverage exists sure but it also existed when Kylie Jenner was proclaimed a billionaire and then when she was not and when any number of trivial but popular or otherwise interesting things happen. Suitable for DYK as that is where interesting things go, not ITN as that is where news goes. nableezy - 20:16, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have indeed, this is tops of world in Washington Post. You know whats second? Andrew Tate being arrested. This is generating interest, it doesnt mean it is particularly noteworthy or newsworthy. Not everything that gets ratings is news. nableezy - 21:28, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but only a small minority of them. We don't post just because they receive a lot of media coverage & the articles are good enough. If we did, we'd have quickly posted the 2023 Nottingham attacks & Anne Heche's death would've been blurbed. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 21:36, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thats an interesting logical fallacy, but I presume you would support Travis Barker and Kourtney Kardashian announcing a pregnancy by referencing a Blink-192 music video with that same rationale? nableezy - 21:30, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if you'd like another logical fallacy, that is that, and this is this. But obviously each person's significance standards are different, and I suspect that if that story were nominated, it would not have a consensus to post. Here, it seems that there is a consensus, even if it's not unanimous. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)22:42, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We should not be posting sensationalist news stories, which I feel this story is on that edge (five rich people knew what they were doing by going down in that submersible with a history of safety problems; unlike things like the cave rescue or mining rescues where those people had no choice of where they ended up). Its the same rationale that no matter how many 72pt headlines such a story might make, we don't make ITN items for celebrity stories (like the Depp/Heard trial), most political topics (like the Hunter Biden conviction today), or other pop cultural items. These stories inevitably favor - from both originating and coverage - western biases that we absolutely should avoid, and the argument "its in the news! and readers are looking for it!" doesn't fall well because WP doesn't care about popularity of stories, and should be focusing on being an encyclopedia than catering to the masses. Masem (t) 03:46, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pull I'm unconvinced that the mass shooting incident analogy is a good one, as ropey submersibles steered by games controllers don't go missing every day. But it's only really in the news for this reason (and the fact it's turned into a Thunderbirds style race against time before the air runs out). Sea-going is dangerous. Vessels do go missing all the time, usually because they've sunk, and AFAIK we don't post them unless they're major catastrophes. Black Kite (talk)20:48, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support - Being widely covered in the media in multiple countries. Just searching news brings up multiple hits which shows this is indeed an important story. The purpose of ITN is direct readers to topics that are in the news and of interest which is what this posting does. NoahTalk21:00, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They have to also be important to be on ITN. If being highly-publicised & of interest to many people were sufficient, we'd have posted Anne Heche's car crash, then blurbed her death days later. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 21:15, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support it is in the news, very widely covered and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a good argument. Also this concerns the wreckage of the Titanic; arguably one of if not the most famous ship in history. Abcmaxx (talk) 21:03, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pull Not a major catastrophe, no lasting impact, insignificant. Rich guy goes on a trip with some other guys and their vessel gets sunk. Not ITN worthy (although the fact it was controlled by a PlayStation controller could've been a nice DYK candidate). Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800001:09, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong post-posting support per Abcmaxx. This story and 5+ related stories are the main headline across most Western media company websites, newspapers, and news agencies. This qualifies as being "in the news" on a greater scale than any recent event that has been posted, nullifying all pull request arguments. 23.242.176.139 (talk) 03:30, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not about the few millionaires that were onboard this submarine - it's about the fact that a civil submarine sinks at all. What has come out of this whole drama is how unregulated this whole area is - the submarine wasn't certified by anyone (while ships normally are), and previous "tourists" are now voicing concerns they already had previously. For those who say this has no impact - on the contrary! I would be surprised if OceanGate survives this; other submarine tourism companies will come under increased scrutiny, and no insurance company will touch any civil submarine with ten-foot pole as long as these things are not certified. So this has a massive impact on a nascent industry. Khuft (talk) 19:42, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose on quality While it's been dramatically expanded, it's got the usual citation issues and a variety of grammatical errors as well. The Kip (talk) 23:59, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on quality Article is a stub, needs major rewriting such as a lack of an "early life" and "personal life" section, as well as more citations to back up several claims.
Now you've done a good job expanding the Football career section and nothing else. I'm not supporting this until there's good length out there, and considering how fastidious you've been on this article, I think you'd agree with me that you wouldn't want a desultory attempt to push this article to ITNRD and then slap a Ready tag on it when there isn't consensus to post it, no? Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800000:46, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, I'll say weak oppose for now- some or the writing is really poor, and a couple of paragraphs could use more referencing, but it's just about there, and certainly good work in a short period of time.
That doesn't change the fact that there was absolutely no reason to nominate the article before updating it, especially if the nominator was doing the updating themselves. Why not just wait a couple of hours? Kicking222 (talk) 03:07, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it brought to my attention that the article didn't have any prose whatsoever- great thing to which to draw attention- and exactly one other user got involved for more than a second.
@Knightoftheswords281: may be worth noting in the nominator comments that you're nominating an article that still needs work; something along the lines of "not ready, nominating to draw attention to the article, requires sections A, B, and C added, missing sources about X, Y, and Z". Then all editors hopefully will put all the effort into improving their article rather than writing unhelpful comments. Abcmaxx (talk) 21:10, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment There's nothing wrong with nominating an article to draw attention to it. I have done it myself with Janusz Kupcewicz and that was way worse than this article when 1st nominated; it was expanded and featured in RD on the main page though, and the RD nomination helped others get involved. WP:AGF, needless aggression on here, uncalled for. Abcmaxx (talk) 16:01, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: German writer, best known for a bestseller he wrote together with his (more famous) former wife (don't miss the video of the two reading from it in the novel's article even if you don't understand German). - Sorry, I had no time for him, too many others who died + RL. Did you see my question about Doris Stockhausen on the talk? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:32, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Romanian composer, musicologist, teaching generations of students, also founder and conductor of a chamber orchestra for contemporary music, head of a festival, and of the Union of Romanian composers. - Had no article! Today is his birthday!! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:04, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support assuming that the citation at the "His works include:" goes for all of his works. Excellent job by Gerda Arendt, as usual. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800017:49, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Not ready Still quite a lot of citations missing. I've tried to do some improvements but the personal life and notable buildings sections still need fixing up. Vladimir.copic (talk) 23:57, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: Yeah, its another sports article, and several won't be happy to see another one, but the U.S. Open is a recurring ITN. Might be a bit short, but a photo likely needs added of Wyndham Clark. TheCorriynial (talk) 12:34, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on quality, especially as regards to prose. Too little prose to table ratio, and most importantly in the Round summaries section, in which only the final round has enough prose to be comfortably on the Main Page. Expansion is needed, please and thanks.Weak support Some expansion would be helpful in the first round section, but overall, this article is ready for ITN. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800012:53, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The course description is empty save for the par list. A brief summary about the LACC like any preparations it made since this appears to be the first time it hosted the US Open, or how the LACC was selected, for example, would help. Masem (t) 00:08, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - "Field" section too long, with detail that isn't necessary in the tournament summary page. See 2020 U.S. Open (golf), where it was hived off to a subpage and only the essential summary listed. The round summaries for 1, 2, 3 are also quite short, could do with a slight expansion. — Amakuru (talk) 15:42, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I think the field being separated for the 2020 one was a one time thing, and hasn't been done with any major since minus the PGA that year. Likely the golf wiki project tried it, but it was unofficially decided not to do again after the PGA that year. TheCorriynial (talk) 16:52, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It seems the situation could have warranted a yellow-tag {{overly detailed}} before, but the split added an orange-tag {{expand section}}. That apparently made it worse per WP:ITN:
Articles that are subject to serious issues, as indicated by 'orange'- or 'red'-level tags at either the article level or within any section, may not be accepted for an emboldened link
I've pared down the field section again, removing the lengthy an unnecessary "exemptions" bit. It shouldn't really have been posted with issues unresolved, but it's probably OK now. Summary style would be preferable to transclusion but ah well. — Amakuru (talk) 06:31, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As The Ed pointed out above, this is an editing guideline and compliance with that is always a prerequisite for posting items on the main page. — Amakuru (talk) 08:14, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Amakuru: It was no longer tagged when it was posted. At worst, a yellow tag is placed, but WP:ITN only cautions against orange and reds. If I'm missing something, we can continue at WT:ITN. Regards.—Bagumba (talk) 11:54, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Posted The orange tag was resolved and has been stable.[25] At worst, there still might be issues with how much or little detail the "Field" section should have in the main page vs. subpage, which has a quirk of a yellow vs. orange tag. As the content is still available and sourced on WP regardless, it doesn't seem like an ITN issue.—Bagumba (talk) 04:54, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Weak support Although two things are needed to improve this for me to drop the weak: an improved lead, and a citation fix in the works sections. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800003:15, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: For several months now, much of Asia has been battered by a crippling and record breaking heatwave that has left dozens dead and even more hospitalized. This is actually the third time this has been nominated: the first was closed since it was a nom for ongoing and it at the time hadn't really done much besides have some record temperatures. The second came after 15 people had died, and there was actually consensus to post, but no admin posted in time (much like the nomination for the Tony awards that are about to become stale). Now, we've recently received a fresh death toll of 34 from Uttar Pradesh, bringing the toll to 51. I suggest this be posted at least on a WP:IAR basis (even though I would argue that the increase of deaths doesn't make the story stale since it just occured today), especially since there was indeed consensus to post last time. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 20:14, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose if for nothing else but quality. Hospitalization numbers do not appear to be updated, and I have concerns about how updated our information is across the article in general. The article lists death counts from only three countries and would seem to be only updated from time to time. The article also reads kinda poorly, as it's mostly single lines about certain affects at x point in time in each country. Additionally, while I love statistics, so much of the prose is about temperature readings and records, which makes sense in the context of the event in question, but it still feels quite excessive. DarkSide830 (talk) 21:50, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on quality Article is also barely updated and feels bare, besides the fact that this is the third attempt for this article to be put on ITN. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me thrice....I don't know what they say for thrice. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800022:07, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, the first one technically had consensus to post, just as a blurb instead of the ongoing that the nominator wanted, and again, the only reason the second one didn't get posted was due to the admins. I think this is kind of like the situation over the Ohio train derailment and the fiasco that it caused on ITN, in that we're only having a third time, because we fumbled on the earlier two. Hopefully despite this, just like the Ohio train derailment, this can be posted. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 22:30, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on quality For as prolonged this has been, the article has far too much proseline rather than summarizing the effects in each country better. In addition, I would fully expect a meterological section to explain the origins and the persistence of the heat wave, in the same manner you'd see how a hurricane or typhoon article typically starts. --Masem (t) 22:57, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment
there was actually consensus to post
By my count there were three opposes to five supports, discounting my own neutral vote. I'm curious to hear what your definition of "consensus to post" is. The Kip (talk) 02:59, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So by my count that's three legitimate opposes, considering the article quality is still poor. That's not consensus, and this isn't the first time you've been overly eager to post a blurb prematurely. The Kip (talk) 20:16, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Only the Al Jazeera source in the nom seems recent. Do sources really say this is all part of the same heat wave since Apri? And do they group it as all part of Asia? Most of the article's listed deaths and hospitalizations are specifically in India. I'm wary of WP:OR grouping here.—Bagumba (talk) 06:37, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do sources really say this is all part of the same heat wave since Apri? And do they group it as all part of Asia? Most of the article's listed deaths and hospitalizations are specifically in India.
The first two from NYT and France24, at best, make reference to South Asia. In fact, France24 wrote, ..a searing heat wave in April that struck parts of South Asia..., which doesn't sound like it considers this one continuous heat wave. The CNN source is from May, so cannot be used to tie in current events. Feel free to highlight any relevant excerpts from other recent sources.—Bagumba (talk) 05:28, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It's reported in The Economist that South Asia (India/Pakistan/Bangladesh/etc.) averages about 110,000 heat deaths a year, this century. That's an average of 300 a day - presumably much higher at this time of year. I'm having problems posting 111 deaths in South Asia, given as this seems lower than normal, and seems to be typical for an 8-hour period. Maybe the Climate emergency should be ongoing. Nfitz (talk) 16:52, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's reported in The Economist that South Asia (India/Pakistan/Bangladesh/etc.) averages about 110,000 heat deaths a year, this century. That's an average of 300 a day - presumably much higher at this time of year
I'm questioning what The Economist meant by heat-related excess death, given that according to Statista, from 2008 to 2021, the annual deaths from Indian heatwaves never exceeded 2,100 people, with 2021 in fact having 0 deaths. [26]. In fact, none of the other news sources that mention the study (BBC, The Hindu, UNDDR, Mint) or hell, even the original Lancet study itself mention that 110K number, only the 3.3 million deaths caused by exposure to fossil fuels. The only sources that mention the 110K number were published after The Economist ran the article that you linked, so I'm questioning the accuracy of that statement.
Regardless, that's not a good metric anyway considering that this is an ongoing phenomenon, where nothings been set in stone. You know how for example, we don't know the exact numbers for COVID casualties for example? @Nfitz - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 20:49, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is a surprisingly high number. If it's completely wrong, even if it get's to 2,000 in just one South Asian country alone - then 100 seems low to be notable. I have a big problem believing that there were no heat-related deaths in 2021 - particularly when The Lancet reported a loss of 167 billion hours of labour in 2021 due to heat exposure. Nfitz (talk) 23:59, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the news would be stale for most parts of Asia. Should limit scope to UP or India, but there doesn't seem to be an article for that. Jiaminglimjm (talk) 10:39, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: 42 people are dead in Uganda after rebels linked to ISIL attacked a school in the country. The article seems to be in pretty good shape actually, much better than most of its type are when nominated here, but there is an active move discussion. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 14:59, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support once merge resolved I really don't see much on the second page that needs to be in the first, so may be a matter of administration, but this otherwise is sufficiently good to post as a new breaking news article from that part of the world. --Masem (t) 15:38, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge has been resolved and while there can still be more details, this is appropriate quality for a new breaking event, so it should be ready to go. --Masem (t) 13:30, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support—I honestly don't even think a full discussion regarding a merge is necessary, as the two articles cover the same topic. Just copy the text of one article and incorporate it into the other, then redirect. I'd do it myself, but I have other things to tend to at the moment. Kurtis(talk)19:19, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support but do not mention IS in the blurb. The link between these militant groups is well-sourced, but speculative. We should not make that claim substantively on the main page, but the article should provide enough info. Original blurb is fine as is. I want to make sure we avoid unintentional editorializing, if possible. 142.116.102.236 (talk) 19:47, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Both blurbs say that the ADF are the perpetrators, with no mention of IS. People who are interested in the ADF can read about the links between those two jihadist groups on various linked articles. I wrote the altblurb improve the wording as well as to remove the number of injured survivors & what type of settlement Mpondwe is due to those points being insufficiently important enough to include. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 21:53, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support alt blurb 1 The article’s important enough for a blurb & it has enough details & references. Alt blurb 1 seems like it’s best in terms of being concise. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 22:58, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The United States-based Recording Academy, organizer of the annual Grammy Awards, announces that songs incorporating artificial intelligence (AI) may be considered for awards, provided there is a significant human creative contribution. However, songs purely generated by AI are ineligible for awards, and only human creators are eligible. (Time)
The village of Brienz/Brinzauls in Grisons, Switzerland, is narrowly missed by an overnight 2 million m3 (71 million cu ft) rockslide. The village of 128 residents had been evacuated in May after scientists predicted the imminent rockslide. (BBC News)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: The only source I could find mentioning his death was this Facebook post - which is really surprising to me considering his accomplishments - I think the post can be considered reliable, as it is an official announcement from the team he played for (Hamilton Tiger-Cats). BeanieFan11 (talk) 02:34, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Article looks good with regards to sourcing and length, and I am AGF'ing the Facebook post as reliable for this instance. Marking as ready. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800003:08, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Posted. Had a look around for a better source for his death but couldn't find one. An official Facebook post from his former team is fine. Anarchyte (talk) 13:08, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Weak oppose Article lacks citations/ISBNs for the publications at the end of the article.Support Article looks good enough for ITNRD. Marking as ready. (Asking for a friend, how do you pronounce Siobhan?) Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800017:58, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The name on its own obviously isn't enough. Here in Australia it would identify a very well known retired politician. But as soon as I saw the name of the linked article on the very next line, I knew it was an American (or possibly Canadian), who played football(?) in a position whose name we philistine foreigners laugh at. HiLo48 (talk) 06:58, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not understanding why we'd do it here when we've never done it before and in the past we've actually posted a Bob Brown with no dab... BeanieFan11 (talk) 00:48, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose Some uncited items, article is in poor quality, and there isn't even a section about his death. Basically, His death is poorly cited. Editor 5426387 (talk) 03:18, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Conditional Support courageous whistle blower who exposed American imperialism, RIP. However, the article has some citation issues which need to be addressed. Hcoder3104 (💬) 18:47, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And while it's tempting to call for a blurb, given his immeasurable impact on U.S. foreign affairs and the eventual scandal to cripple the Nixon administration, I think it's safe to say that ITN/C has collectively had enough of blurbing Americans for one month.[SARCASM TAG ADDED 22:15, 16/6/2023 ] --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)20:02, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't think someone's nationality should be relevant in blurbing. You should strike this comment out as it sounds prejudiced. Also... only one American has been blurbed this month, so I don't understand any of this. -- RockstoneSend me a message!21:15, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not Ready for the usual reason. Would consider a blurb if the article can be brought up to scratch. Subject's decision to release the Pentagon Papers might be the most significant leak of government secrets in history. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:53, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Blurb is the article is brought up to speed, as Ad Orientem says. I'm very much not of the opinion that the decision to blurb should depend on someone's nationality. It's not America's fault that there's a lot of famous Americans... --RockstoneSend me a message!21:19, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb - whistleblowing is not a field that should qualify for blurb consideration. Article is not ready for posting to RD yet either based on ref quality. - Indefensible (talk) 21:26, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
More like why should it be? The main subject was releasing the Pentagon Papers which happened decades ago, this person's noteworthiness seems largely based on that but I would not say they are more deserving for a blurb than other entries on the RD list. Also you supported a blurb even before a blurb was proposed, I think you were too preemptive. - Indefensible (talk) 21:38, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ellsberg leaked classified documents regarding nuclear war as recently as 2021 (source). Even more recently, his name was going around as a staunch opponent of the Espionage Act (example), a topic that's definitely been in the news lately... Legoktm (talk) 04:48, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Blurbing, since consensus there are some who want it. Support blurb per @Rocko above. The Pentagon Papers leak was a historic moment that has had ramifications internally and externally to this day. Again,
Please do not oppose an item solely because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is generally unproductive.
To be fair, I did toy with the idea of a blurb, I was just hesitant to jump in the blurby water until it was clear that everybody else had already taken a dive. Now just waiting for people to play the Mandela-Thatcher game. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)22:23, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
+1. Ad Oritentem's comment states that they might be willing to support a blurb should the article's quality come up to standards. No support blurb there. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800023:24, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay fine, there was support for discussing a blurb. Damn, I haven't seen pedantry this bad since r/Badhistory. Either way, it all doesn't matter anyway because now there indeed objectively is multiple people who want a blurb. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 23:28, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, I think you are clearly being too hasty. It's good to be enthusiastic and have new contributors, but you need to slow down and not be in such a rush to push your agenda in my opinion. Relax, there is plenty of time and lots of productive things besides Wikipedia to be doing. - Indefensible (talk) 23:33, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb This blurbing of RDs is going too far. The Pentagon Papers were important. That one event should not be enough to justify a blurb. The death is not a major news story. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:36, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb, oppose RD on quality I wouldn't say this was a BIO1E, but realistically his life was centered on the Pentagon Papers and little else, so I can't see any reason for a blurb here. As for quality for RD, there are clearly tons of tags, and I think a lot of this should be shuffled off into the Pentagon Papers article - this article should focus on his discovery and publication and results, but the details of the discovery is too much here. --Masem (t) 21:41, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ellsberg was involved in the Snowden leaks, behind the scenes and publicly advocating for him (source), leaked a classified document about nuclear war as recently as 2021 (source), testified in Assange's extradition hearing last year, etc. That's already a lot more than "centered on the Pentagon Papers and little else". Labeling him as a "nearly a BIO1E" really minimizes what his actions did... very few people can say they took down the President of the United States, but that's roughly what he did!. From the New York Times today, "It led to illegal countermeasures by the White House to discredit Mr. Ellsberg, halt leaks of government information and attack perceived political enemies, forming a constellation of crimes known as the Watergate scandal that led to the disgrace and resignation of President Richard M. Nixon." That alone is a pretty significant worldwide impact for a single person. Legoktm (talk) 04:32, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"realistically his life was centered on the Pentagon Papers" will be greeted with charitable dismissal by anyone familiar with Daniel Ellsberg, or anyone unfamiliar with him who goes to the effort to read any one of the numerous obituaries in internationally-known media - In the last couple hours the New York Times, Washington Post, Guardian UK, Die Zeit have all had pieces reporting on or linking to stories on Ellsberg's 50+ years of anti-nuclear activism. I met him in 1979 while engaged in anti-nuclear civil disobedience at the US DoE. This was unrelated to the Pentagon Papers. Mwehle (talk) 05:31, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's no less valid a reason than any other reason, and "never heard of him" actually is not a necessarily unfair barometer for whether someone should be blurbed. While most people remember the Pentagon Papers, the Watergate burglary and the subsequent coverup, Daniel Ellsberg's name is probably one that doesn't register among those who are passingly familiar with the event. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)22:21, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb And here, ladies and gentlemen, is your daily blurb nomination!!! This has become ridiculous!!!!! (Do we have any rules or guidelines at all on this?) HiLo48 (talk) 22:35, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What issue: "this has become ridiculous"? I agree, !votes like that are not helpful. It would be helpful if you provided a rationale for why you are opposing this item.
Similarly, as I said previously, screaming with exclamation marks and all caps are not conducive to a civil environment. So I would suggest you reflect on that as well. It's drawing attention to yourself in a negative fashion and distracting from whatever constructive point you are trying to make. But I'm sure you recall that we had this discussion years ago. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)00:33, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Years ago we used to have daily arguments about whether someone who had just died was important enough to crack a mention here. That was seen as a bad thing, so we introduced Recent deaths. Now we are having daily arguments about whether someone who has just died was important enough to get a blurb. That too is a bad thing. We haven't progressed at all. HiLo48 (talk) 01:59, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't a clue why nominating a blurb needs this kind of sarcastic attack. The system for what is chosen vs. what isn't seems well regulated enough that only few of them make it. Personally I'd wanted to see Glenda Jackson and Cormac McCarthy get blurbed, both of which seemed to have been quietly voted down. OK, time to move on then. Why I care about that? I don't know. But I don't understand why we need to attack people for suggesting a blurb of an important figure who's passed on. 75.213.121.174 (talk) 06:22, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not an "attack" on the person as much as a criticism of the process. I mean, comparing recent noms for blurbs to past timeframes would seem to show that we've had a lot lately, and no one has met the vaunted "Mandela-Thatcher Standard", which is somewhat silly but does act as a reasonable benchmark in a way. DarkSide830 (talk) 23:48, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb. You can call it being in the right place at the right time. But there is no whistleblower alive today who has helped more people. Ellsberg was at the center of one of the most influential cases in postwar America and one that plenty of politicians on both sides of the aisle are trying to overturn as we speak. Blurbing this kind of thing is directly missional to Wikipedia which owes its existence to the same laws he fought to uphold. Connor Behan (talk) 00:44, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb. This person was one of the most impactful journalists of the 20th century. We need not repeat the travesty of omitting a Barbara Walters-level journalist from having a death blurb. No comment with respect to quality. — Red-tailed hawk(nest)02:40, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't compare him to Walters, who continued to have a significant influence on women in journalism nearly up through her death. Again, Ellsberg is nearly a BIO1E aspect all around the Pentagon Papers (which was influential, yes) but did little outside that. This is conflating someone having an important role in a major event, and someone being important throughout their life. Masem (t) 03:30, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Influence on others in the same field strengthens the case for a blurb. Every serious journalist knows more about Ellsberg than his mere association with the Pentagon Papers and activism in which he participated in essentially every year between then and his death is documented in the article. Connor Behan (talk) 12:09, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Why require RD if every third nom is for a blurb? This death at 92 is neither exceptional nor unexpected, the article is not really in a good shape either and Ellsberg is known for trigerring a major political scandal in the past but I am not really seeing why that singular event should itself be enough for a blurb. The leak and political scandal was a watershed moment, this death here is not. RD suffices. Gotitbro (talk) 02:57, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
blurb Support transformative figure. we've posted some basketball/american football players that no one outside the land of the "free" has heard of, we've posted singers like prince, again, unheard of anywhere outside a small minority of overrepresented american boomers, this guy actaully will remain in the textbooks on the history of the xxth century for the forceable feature. unlike prince. or that golf player. Daikido (talk) 03:37, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Claiming that Prince was "unheard of anywhere outside a small minority of overrepresented american boomers" is somewhat delusional, I have to say. Black Kite (talk)11:55, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Who even is "that golf player"? Ironic though, I looked back at Arnold Palmer's death nom and a blurb wasn't even written, much less posted, for him. That's a miss. But really though, what golf player? DarkSide830 (talk) 23:45, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD Important whistleblower who exposed the American Imperialists, major historic figure. May not be Blurb material, but definitely RD material. Editor 5426387 (talk) 04:22, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose RD on Quality, Neutral on Blurb. I tend to be disinterested in blurbing a person known for one very specific thing rather than individuals with protracted societal impacts, but this feels like a more exceptional case, so I'm purposefully not opposing. Article looks quite good already, but could use a little extra work. DarkSide830 (talk) 05:17, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, Oppose Blurb-Notable death, fine for RD, as long it’s completely cited. As for blurb, I know this was stated before and I agree; although the the Pentagon Papers was a very important event, Ellsburg, although responsible, isn’t as much known as the event (I’m not saying he isn’t just not as much). Also, although this isn’t as much of an argument, but I think if Ellsburg gets a blurb, then Cormac McCarthy should have got one as well when he died a few days ago (I know it’s been a few days and he has already disappeared from the RD but that’s my thought on that topic). Kybrion (talk) 07:17, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb If someone's death rises to the level of an ITN blurb I would expect to see it near the top of news sources outside the USA; I'm looking at the main UK sources and it's way below the fold if it appears at all (it's not on the BBC front page at all, and in the Guardian - which covered the PP story heavily - it's 6th in the World News section). Sometimes the stories themselves are way more notable than the people who are responsible for them. Black Kite (talk)11:53, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Normally I find claims of Americentrism to be woefully overstated, but this blurb getting posted would be one of the few instances where such an accusation would be valid. The Kip (talk) 02:56, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Who said anything about endorsements? Mentioning that Ellsberg's article has one thing in common with an article about a morally contemptible person is a clear derailment of a notability discussion. For what it's worth, David Duke is at the top of the white supremacy field and there's a good case to be made that his death will warrant a blurb. Connor Behan (talk) 11:35, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Blurb: A very important figure in his field. The Pentagon Papers are quite significant in the history of American whistleblowing regarding the Vietnam War. His activism is internationally recognized and Ellsberg has won many international awards, such as the 2018 Olof Palme Prize. Ninmacer20 (talk) 06:32, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, Oppose Blurb. Ellsburg basically did one big thing, rather than having a transformative career of big things. BD2412T01:05, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb - A major historical who blew a huge whistle with the Pentagon Papers on the Vietnam War, placing him undisputably at the top of his field, then continued to speak out in his books and interviews in support of other notable whistleblowers and press freedom as well as the dangers of nuclear war. Also known for the Ellsberg paradox. Opposers are unconvincing. Jusdafax (talk) 05:12, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb per above, now that quality concerns have been addressed. Influential figure, certainly among the most prominent whistleblowers in history. Davey2116 (talk) 05:33, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update As noted, I tidied up the {{cn}} and, in doing so, it became clear that the subject was not just a whistleblower but was a significant thinker in the field of nuclear confrontation, escalation and strategy. As superpower conflict is a big thing again, this is a timely reminder of these issues. Andrew🐉(talk) 06:44, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb. 31 wiki pages, c'mon. It's purely local stuff. What is the logic if Glenda Jackson and Girl from Ipanema singer Astrud Gilberto don't get blurbed, William Hurt doesn't get blurbed, Harry Belafonte doesn't get blurbed but the guy almost everyone did not hear of gets? Kirill C1 (talk) 18:59, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment this is nearly postable to RD, but there's an orange banner in the films section. (Plus a couple of SPS tags, but those are minor enough to not hold this up.) Ed[talk][majestic titan]23:27, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Perhaps lost among the blurb debate, but this can't even post on RD with the numerous citation needed tags outstanding.—Bagumba (talk) 16:55, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: Japan's age of consent, infamous and controversial both domestically and internationally, has finally been raised after over a century, following a wave of outcry, foreign and internal, over child predation and cupcake lovers. The change has receive widespread external and national coverage, going back months ever since the change entered in the works, largely due to how infamous the prior AOC was (I certainly remember hearing my fair share of jokes, memes, and shocked comments about this once I started getting into social studies) and is noted for bringing the country more in line with the rest of the first world. The bill also criminalizes voyeurism and cranks down on sex crimes in general, including redefining the definition of rape. There does appear to be some citation issues within the subject article, however, but otherwise, it seems like it can be shaped up for MP-status. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 16:41, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Horrible alt blurbs for one thing, but moreover we generally do not cover these sorts of internal law changes, such as those legalizing homosexual marriage/relationships or abortion. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)16:48, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not oppose an item solely because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is generally unproductive.
Secondly, the argument comparing this to homosexuality/abortion legislation is incorrect because a), we do sometimes, b), this is not abortion or homosexuality, and c), the whole "settled issue" argument would have been better applicable in the 20th century when most AOC legislation today was made in the first world. In fact, one of the reasons why this is receiving extensive news coverage is that before then, the last time the age of consent was raised in Japan was in 1907. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 17:20, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I for one am not opposing solely because the item only relates to a single country -- but rather that, in relating only to one country, it nonetheless imposes very few significant national changes to begin with, per Masem's reasoning below. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)17:33, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose WaltCip stole all the words right out of my mouth. This is a single, national event, that has non significance outside of Japan. Besides that notability, those alt blurbs might be some of the worst I've seen. Youch. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800017:09, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As articles on this have pointed out, this raise the national age of consent to 16, but already, all prefectures in Japan have set 16 or higher. So this is basically memorializing what's already in place. If anything ,the news is that Japan is making its laws regarding rape much higher (better protection for women), making them in line with most international laws on rape. So this is also really nothing new. --Masem (t) 17:19, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All prefectures in Japan had already effectively set the age of consent at 18
Evidently this change has no international significance, but there is also no national impact? This seems like a purely symbolic (non-)event. YD407OTZ (talk) 17:21, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is beyond ITN, I don't see an issue documenting the ages of consent from a legal standpoint, including historical changes, but I do think there's far too much dissection (as you point out, 16 articles overall) on the topic. Masem (t) 17:34, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
I've updated the article quite a bit and as for me we could post it as RD. If someone wants to have all the results sourced in the list at the bottom one by one (for the time being, there is a general database source), I'd source what I can and scrap the rest for the time the article is on the main page.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 21:11, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Posted I've added a few words of prose to the results section so that the reference could move from the header to the text. That sorted the remaining issue. Schwede6600:48, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: 15 people are dead in Manitoba after a semi-truck hit a bus along the Trans-Canadian highway. The incident is big news in Canada and is also receiving sustained external coverage. The article needs serious work. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 00:25, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not that unusual. Humboldt Broncos bus crash, [28]. Rate for crashes with double-digit deaths like this might be higher in Canada than many places. I'm reluctant to support crashes. Especially ones like this that keep happening. This is what happens when you build expressways with 100 km/hr speed limits, with stop signs in the perpendicular direction, rather than overpasses. Nothing is done, and it will happen again. Would we support a good article for a 15-person death in a crash in Bangladesh? There's zero about the obvious root cause of the accident. The bus clearly entered the intersection with oncoming traffic ... there's just no way it would be in the middle of the expressway otherwise. Anyone who drives this highway can see the huge risk. There should be sources out there that discuss this - yes, here's one in the Winnipeg Sun. Nfitz (talk) 15:10, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Rate for crashes with double-digit deaths like this might be higher in Canada than many places. No, it's pretty rare here. You cited the Broncos crash, which happened five years ago. Before that, the most recent vehicular accident with a double-digit death toll in Canada was a 2012 crash in Ontario, with 11 dead.[29] Before that? Our deadliest-ever traffic accident, a bus crash in Quebec, which occurred in the year 1997. So, not at all common for Canada to have car accidents with that many people getting killed. For your reference, other incidents in Canada with 10+ people dying are listed here. Kurtis(talk)21:53, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, User:Kurtis. So big even for a crash - even if the Broncos crash was so recently, so no concern. Still I know that in some places such crashes are much more frequent, and we are unlikely to see an article, let alone an ITN. Thanks for the list - I hadn't seen that all-encompassing one; odd 7 pandemic/endemics - but no Spanish flu (1919/1920) fixed - vandalism. Nfitz (talk) 16:44, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Theoretically support, but oppose for now The "Incident" section isn't detailed enough since it only has 2 sentences at the moment.Support It now has enough details & references. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 03:13, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now. As per Blaylockjam10's comment, the incident section needs to be expanded to describe what occurred with greater details. While I support it now, I think that more information is needed, especially on the geographic location and the response. Maxxies (talk) 04:42, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It was a quality article and it was nominated, but was dismissed because 30-40 people dying in an RTA in Africa was "routine." Sheila1988 (talk) 09:00, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You'd have to point to that nomination to check if that was the reason or if it was something else like quality. Masem (t) 12:34, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: This ITN is like the poster child for systemic bias. A highway crash? News? Pfft. This story barely even appeared in the news anywhere outside of Canada, the US and Australia. See Trends. It's not even on the same order of magnitude as most international news. So it's a big crash for Canada? Meh. This kind of accident-weighing relativism doesn't work on a global scale. If five people die in a car crash Tonga, is that suddenly big news event because Tonga has a tiny population and you never hear about car crashes in Tonga? Somehow I don't think that would fly here. Sympathy to the victims, but a highway crash, even a terrible one, remains an incredibly mundane event. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:54, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's some completely valid criticism. Unfortunately, it's a fine line between making articles on topics in the news and failing to meet WP:SUSTAINED. The nature of ITN is to post things happening now without becoming a news ticker, and it's difficult to judge whether something will be notable in a year when it happened last week. Sure, a counterpoint would be "don't make the article until next year", but good luck getting that enshrined through G&P. There's a discussion about this going on on the talk page. You may be interested in commenting there, too. Anarchyte (talk) 07:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is there an objective solution for handling what one personally feels "should" be in the news versus what is actually in the news? —Bagumba (talk) 09:21, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Could someone clarify "He was the oldest known living person with autism"? It doesn't appear to be what the source says (which I believe says he was the person to have lived with autism the longest). Anarchyte (talk) 15:36, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Oppose According to National Coalition for Romania, the coalition plans to rotate the PM position every year or so. As the policies of this coalition won't change much, I'm not convinced that we need to track the details. This doesn't seem to be prominent news as a search for "Romania" returns a variety of other stories. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:17, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on quality as there's a complete lack of what he was up to between 2020 and now, including the circumstances of how he came to become PM. The Kip (talk) 18:15, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support on notability and wait for quality. This is a clear WP:INTR item, so opposing for notability is nonsensical. However, there are some issues with article quality, and they need to be addressed before this can go on the front page. — Red-tailed hawk(nest)05:31, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Before we do anything else, can somebody please provide a source for his date of birth? We can't leave that unreferenced for a living person. Schwede6609:12, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support blurb. Actor and two-time Academy Award Winner, had 60-year old career, politician and activist and longstanding advocate for rights of women. She is bigger then Jim Brown, whom we blurbed. See [31]Kirill C1 (talk) 11:49, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb Obviously famous and already recognised as vital. Note that there shouldn't be a fuss about her awards and credits as there are so many that they been spun off into separate lists. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:04, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb, support RD I see nothing outside the claims of number of awards that suggests a transformative or influential figure in either acting or politics. Kirill suggests that she contributed heavily to womens' rights, but I do not clearly see that in the article in a Legacy or Impact section (even that's not mentioned in the lede). We need that same type of carve out that we had for Jim Brown for her to make sense as a blurb. Article quality is otherwise good to go for RD --Masem (t) 12:22, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And...? None of this seems documented in the article. Hand-waving of claims of greatness do not help if they are not called out. Masem (t) 13:57, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm talking about the heights she reached. Its still handwaving to claim being vocal to Thatcher makes her a great or transformative figure. Masem (t) 15:53, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Blurb She is widely recognized as a transformative figure on screen and stage, especially pioneering a new type of acting for women. Hard to imagine how we would have Meryl Streep if not for Glenda Jackson. Her political career is purely icing. Donignacio (talk) 15:41, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Certainly she was a good actor, but was she really the top of her field or transformative? The Triple Crown of Acting page lists 24 actors that reached that achievement. Her side efforts opposing Thatcher or Iraq don't strike me as unique either. Is it me, or have these RD/blurb nominations become more frequent? I count seven nominations so far in June, and we're only half way through the month. Are there really fourteen Mandela's and Thatchers dying every month? YD407OTZ (talk) 16:09, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This comes down to opinion but she's certainly more transformative than most of the other actors who appear on the Triple Crown list. I also don't think it's Glenda Jackson's fault there are 14 nominations in June and I'm also not sure why necessarily Thatcher or Mandela are used as golden standards. She's perhaps not a household name like Tina Turner was, for example. 2600:100F:A003:EF28:486B:584D:3A54:6A09 (talk) 16:17, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, these indeed have gotten more frequent without regard to or factoring in what purpose might be served by a blurb that is not already served by an RD. The former would be where the death itself is news (unusual/unexpected) or the person was indeed so influential that their passing is itself treated as monumental. Gotitbro (talk) 16:55, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb. Come on, this is getting a little silly now. RIP to Jackson, she's had a great career and life, but by no stretch is she in the Thatcher / Mandela league as either a politician or an actress. — Amakuru (talk) 17:06, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Hard disagree. Jackson is in the realm of Judi Dench, Maggie Smith, Vanessa Redgrave in caliber and her 25yrs as an MP in between only adds to her career. Therequiembellishere (talk) 18:15, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb on significance/notability, support RD on quality per all above. Unfortunately, I just don't see the significance. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800019:18, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, neutral on blurb—Even though I was unfamiliar with her, it's obvious that Jackson had quite the distinguished career as an actress, and I think it's pretty close to blurb-worthy. If I wind up leaning one way or the other, I'll update this comment. For now, I'll defer to the other participants in the discussion. Kurtis(talk)19:52, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Blurb - Never heard of her (which apparently is a requirement now, see Cormac's proposed blurb and the people opposing for that reason). Beyond that, I fail to see how she is more notable than McCarthy, who we are not blurbing. --RockstoneSend me a message!22:52, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Blurb Not another one!!!!! We are getting blurb nominations every few days at present. WE NEED BETTER RULES!!!!! HiLo48 (talk) 23:35, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb since her acting career is among the most distinguished and she was a politician. Plenty of actors state political opinions and "raise awareness" but she went a step further. Connor Behan (talk) 00:41, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The European Commission orders Google to sell off portions of its advertising services in order to comply with anti-competitive practices and threatens to fine the company up to 10% of its global turnover. Google, which relies on advertising services for up to 79% of its revenue, says that it will appeal the order. (Reuters)
Astronomers report that the presence of phosphates on Enceladus, moon of the planet Saturn, has been detected, completing the discovery of all the basic chemical ingredients for life on the moon. (New York Times)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Needs citations for his gold medals at the 1985 Athletics World Cup, 1987 Pan American Games, and 1987 World Championships. Looks like it should be good to go after that. Anarchyte (talk) 15:31, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Question (from someone who is unfamiliar with this process): Can this disaster truly be said to have occurred in Greece when the boat sank "around 50 miles (80 km) off the coast of Pylos" (quoting the article)? —71.105.243.101 (talk) 10:00, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think maybe a technicality like "In greek waters" or something like that is the correct, precise phrase - but that's getting nitpicky. I think since the Greek authorities responded to the incident and did the rescue, that makes it Greek enough that we can say "Greek" without any of the technicalities of maritime borders etc. QueensanditsCrazy (talk) 13:47, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think IP editor is actually correct, for Wikipedia it would be good to verify the coordinates and jurisdiction to maintain encyclopedic accuracy. Plus "In Greece" and "off the coast of the city of Pylos in the Peloponnese" is a little redundant in my opinion. - Indefensible (talk) 22:12, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose as there appears to be a couple uncited statements in the article, although after those have refs to them, support. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800010:48, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's just a list of works. Does it even need a reference? All of them list the creators (writer, artist, inker, etc) in some small info box somewhere within the comic. Cambalachero (talk) 15:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb I just enjoyed reading through this as the prose account of their career flows remarkably well. Kudos to Template:U, Template:U and Template:U who seem to have done most of the heavy lifting. As the subject is in multiple halls of fame and was directly responsible much of Marvel's look and major characters like Wolverine, which are now huge cultural icons, they merit a blurb. The demands for citations of the artist's credits are silly as the credits in the works are adequate support and none of them seem to be controversial. Andrew🐉(talk) 16:06, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"bibliographies and filmographies and the like should have clear sources." is said verbatim in WP:ITNQUALITY so the need for citations isn't "silly". I'm unsure about a blurb though. like sure, the guy was notable comic-wise but he's not really up the notability of stan lee i'd say. Though, i don't think my opinion matters here since i'm the nominator and not the voter. Onegreatjoke (talk) 17:30, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I oppose a blurb here, but for what it's worth, the Berlusconi blurb has consensus to post on notability; right now it's only held up by citation issues. The Kip (talk) 19:40, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb What is the rationale for a blurb here? The death is not unusual neither unexpected at this age; the article might be of readable prose quality but is neither GA nor FA to immediately factor it in as a ITN feature solely for its quality; lastly Romita (and his son) might be well-known in the comic book industry but dominance is not clearly present even there. I would suggest the blurb proposers factor in all the points before nominating RDs for blurbs, most of the times the former serves just fine as is the case here. Gotitbro (talk) 07:27, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, oppose blurb nowhere near enough household name to merit a blurb. It also seems, with the exception of Berlusconi, only Americans are being proposed for blurbs, such as American football players and American literary figures; but outside the US, these are not widely known people; not like Tina Turner for example, who definitely had a worldwide impact. Abcmaxx (talk) 08:19, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The last living person from an era is not really of note (unless that is the subject of news itself [oldest living person, last survivor of WWII etc.]); and Romita was not really the top creator during the Golden Age.
Oppose blurb - does not meet the threshold for a blurb. Their work might be important, but they as a person are not well known enough. Anarchyte (talk) 15:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, oppose blurb Article looks well-cited-enough to post, but subject doesn't meet notability threshold for a blurb. The Kip (talk) 19:41, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, oppose blurb Good article but this subject is well short of a blurb.
Oppose RD as I had to place three citation needed tags. I also see two external links in the prose section. This isn't ready. Schwede6602:20, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support An unfortunate result, but the article has enough details & references. Btw, it should be Stanley Cup Final, not Stanley Cup Finals. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 06:58, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I welcome anyone to improve the article, modeling it after last year's Template:Section link with the number and types of sources. Otherwise ITN already has Template:Oldid2 out of five entries, and I am sure increasing it to four out of five would generate more complaints about systemic bias (which tends to happen every year both the Stanley Cup Finals and the NBA Finals end up on ITN at the same time). Zzyzx11 (talk) 09:56, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The citations to video need to have a timestamp then.(Template:Section link). Makes it awfully tough to verify otherwise (unlike a quick ctrl-F of text). Are these tidbits that important if they're not in a text source? —Bagumba (talk) 11:27, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Much like prior years, explanation of the goals aren't typically cited, as the final source contains a full video recap of the goals, saves, and other important events. The only reason I cited them last year is because someone else was even more overzealous to place a Cn on every sentence. As for if detailed explanations of each goal is necessary, well as a reader it's nice to view it. I'd otherwise say that the remaining work that needs citations is justified and I'll work on finding those. Conyo14 (talk) 14:32, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Recurring ITN topic. Remaining citations needed have been fulfilled, unless someone becomes giddy enough to place them on every sentence like last year. Conyo14 (talk) 14:51, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you are referring the game summaries, as pointed out by Template:U, previous years such as the 2022 Stanley Cup Finals and 2021 Stanley Cup Finals (and dating back to 2016 from my quick inspection) have but one citation per section, since video footage for the event is an accepted verifiable information for the play-by-play description. This has been the custom in these articles for many years, so adjusting that standard would be a novel change. - Fuzheado | Talk19:14, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pull Where are the team rosters sourced, quite apart from the issues mentioned above? I'll pull this shortly unless someone can explain why I shouldn't. Black Kite (talk)19:12, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm trying to assume good faith here. But the insistence on extremely detailed sourcing for the game summaries and the player roster for the 2023 article, far out of step for all previous Stanley Cup articles, is puzzling. - Fuzheado | Talk19:32, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If the team roster sourcing is an issue compared to previous years, then that should be addressed. Pinging Template:U who has been the most active on sourcing that article. The nature of the roster presentation and references in the 2023 article resemble previous years. - Fuzheado | Talk19:26, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
References to Rosters have been posted. I'll see if I can cite the fights that would normally not be covered in the recap source. Conyo14 (talk) 19:34, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's just this rush to post before articles are ready that is annoying people. I'm sure those parts that have citations missing can be fixed easily but they aren't yet. I bet they'll be fixed really quickly and then we can post it. If it was posted with sections uncited last year that's a problem that should have been addressed last year, it doesn't mean we can do it wrongly again. Black Kite (talk)19:43, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On the flip side, it's the bureaucratic arbitrariness of these types of standards in the face of ITN prime directive ("Template:Xt") that frustrate many and fuel most of the conflict.
If we're all assuming good faith and are all trying to serve the reader, I hope we can try harder to find a good balance of newsworthiness and quality. So while we've had our differences, I'm not making it personal. I believe you do have the best interest of Wikipedia at heart. It's that folks differ in the newsworthiness-to-quality ratio that abides by ITN's main charge. - Fuzheado | Talk20:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a little puzzled by this sudden eagerness to roll back on the quality criterion, which has been an effective standard for at least as long as I've been very active at ITN (around 6-7 years probably). It's not a ratio, such that more "newsworthy" articles get a lower bar to pass on their quality; the quality criterion is absolute. The article must be fully cited and must not omit major detail pertinent to the subject. This is effectively common to all four of the top sections of the main page; only POTD gets to enjoy a lower bar for entry, mainly for historical reasons and because some people see it more about pictures than articles. Note that the quality standard is lower than needed to pass a GA, but asking for WP:V to be fulfilled is hardly a big ask. — Amakuru (talk) 22:56, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, no sudden eagerness. The last three years the exact same type of article with the same sourcing practices were posted. - Fuzheado | Talk00:40, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi everybody. I tried to source some of the unsourced (would help if there were citation needed tags) and I must say the article seems in a pretty well shape and all that I sourced was actually there. I am not so much into Hockey, and not so much familiar what is described where, so just the field where the source is placed is cited. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 06:21, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - A historical note from the last two years:
2022: Concerns were raised about citations for the game summaries, but others disagreed. Eventually Template:U posted, "Template:Diff"
2021: There were no issues when using the same practices for sourcing the game summaries and the roster in the 2023 article. Template:U then Template:Diff it.
If there are legitimate reasons to shift to new standards, then that should be discussed. But this is a suboptimal way to do it. - Fuzheado | Talk20:02, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are no "new standards". Items should not be posted if sections are unsourced. This has been the case for many years. It's not difficult. Black Kite (talk)20:12, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Point of information: in 2020, you were involved with the discussion about Template:Diff of that year's Stanley Cup final article. That 2020 article Template:Diff was in the same situation as this 2023 article is now: there are no references for that roster column for "Finals apperances." It was not an issue and it didn't prevent posting. One would have to understand why it seems like a "new standard" is being applied. – Fuzheado | Talk21:22, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously I don't remember what the 2022 article looked like when I posted it. I think this one looks good enough at the moment, as long as the sources in the article do properly verify the info they cite (I haven't checked them). Has that been addressed? – Muboshgu (talk) 20:12, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are certain things I will not cite: each goal or save (not worth my time for ITN) and the finals appearances for each player. The Finals appearances are manually done by Ho-ju-96 by going back through each Finals articles. If there are other citations needed for other sentences/blurbs, please point them out and I will fix them as needed. Conyo14 (talk) 20:21, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It wasn't fine before, and it still isn't (quite). However, taking the "Finals appearances" column out of the rosters table would fix the last remaining issue IMO. (Or sourcing it, of course). You can't source something by looking at previous Wikipedia articles - WP is not an RS - that's original research. I'm surprised this has to be spelled out. Black Kite (talk)20:34, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If the finals appearances aren't easy to source, that suggests this is a stat that other reliable sources haven't covered, and hence is borderline OR and not compliant with WP:LISTN. In such circumstances I think removal could be justified and not the usual "gaming" that we see by removing unsourced filmographies etc. — Amakuru (talk) 21:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A tedious but easy way to fix the Finals Appearances issue would be to cite either hockeyref or NHL.com’s team rosters from those prior years, or individual NHL.com game pages from those finals; however, it might take a while. The Kip (talk) 20:49, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see if I can work through it, but still, this whole discussion strikes me as incredibly silly when it's never been an issue in the past. The Kip (talk) 21:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry that Template:U and Template:U have been caught in the middle as collateral damage within a prolonged WP:ITN conflict that was no fault of your own. You have been extremely patient, good faith contributors and hope you know your efforts are greatly appreciated. - Fuzheado | Talk21:29, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with that being pulled. It should be back up because it tells you which team won the championship in the Stanley Cup Finals and that was uncalled for to have it pulled. BattleshipMan (talk) 00:18, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For additional stuff. The news is about which team has won any championship and it's not about whatever concerns address that caused to be pulled. Buy the time the names are engraved in the Stanley Cup, it'd be too late to post the winner of the Stanley Cup on the news template. So, therefore, it should be back up. BattleshipMan (talk) 00:25, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
CommentTemplate:Tq: WP:V is a policy. It's the editor's responsibility if they are going to add tedious detail they remember from TV or some tidbit they caught on video replay. Cite the video timestamp if it's not in a prose source. They were tagged in game one this year, but just reverted and ignored and still posted. The same likely applies to the other games, as Template:U commented above. The NBA Finals page does not have these issues. Hockey is not exempt.—Bagumba (talk) 00:31, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I disagree with you and your reasons for it. That shouldn't count to be pulled from the news template. The news of championships should be posted on there, no matter what source and such. That is totally unreasonable for having it removed in the first place. BattleshipMan (talk) 00:36, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would not compare the NBA Finals to this as they are entirely different sports for a reason. Also, I did the videos for each goal last year for only game one, but someone placed Cn's for the other games too. I really wouldn't base it on one game when really it's all or none. The goals, saves, and important events are in the videos. If not there then in the gamecenter recap. I'm not going to cite them for this, it's not worth my time. Other editors can argue more if they want to. Conyo14 (talk) 01:25, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Reply to Conyo14 is right. NHL.com is more reliable in terms of the championship winner, like the Stanley Cup. I strongly use that for that source because the way I see it, it is totally and completely stupid to pull the Stanley Cup winners off the news template and some policies about that is crappy at best. So therefore, it should brought back to the news feed and not listen to any other users who are overzealous about the issues with it, which I don't see any of it. BattleshipMan (talk) 02:05, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't state that NHL.com is not an acceptable source. The only issue is meeting WP:ITNQUALITY. If video is to be cited, Template:Section link applies, citing a timestamp as we would a page(s) in a book. Citing it to a prose story, but then saying it's cited in one of the embedded videos is not straightforward. Regards. —Bagumba (talk) 02:13, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If this is such a massive issue, how come it hasn't been raised in past years? The insistence on making us do tedious editing and timestamping for what's already in the cited article's video is, to put it bluntly, overzealous. The Kip (talk) 02:07, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody is requiring video to be used as a source. That was an editor's decision to eschew the many prose sources available, because they presumably noticed something important on their couch. that all the writers apparently did not. —Bagumba (talk) 02:17, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Excuse me for wanting a detailed description of how a goal is created. I don't care if it goes into the ITN or not, just don't claim Cn's where they aren't totally necessary. Conyo14 (talk) 03:17, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Reply to For my opinion. I find pulling that from the news template very uncalled for and it's policy of that totally lazy and that lost it's creditability. If it were up to me, I put it back on the news template and voice my complete and utter disapproval to every user who agree to pull this and their lack of regard of allowing every news about championships being put on the news template. That it should on it while those who waste time arguing about stupid policy issues regarding the sourcing of it. It's like arguing with those in the 2023 Writers Guild of America strike or people who argue about issues with politics around every country. And in the end, at some point after seven days on the project page and months after having the player's names on their cup, it would too late to put it on the news template. Is that correct? BattleshipMan (talk) 03:20, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@The Kip: Thanks. For game one, the points I had origially flagged were here They still seem outstanding; the 4:18 clip that was newly cited only supports the high sticking (which I didn't highlight before, as it was in the source's prose.) Regards. —Bagumba (talk) 03:53, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I find that policy totally lazy and inexcusable. All we need is to put news source that Vegas Golden Knights won the 2023 Stanley Cup Finals with that picture of Jonathan Marchessault who is the Playoff MVP. That's the only thing we need. That argument is complete nonsense, many editors who argue to pull that off the news template are so childish complaining about their biased belief of sourcing of it, they have no regard of sourcing who won the Stanley Cup and such, they failed to make such arguments about the sourcing who won the Stanley Cup. That's very pathetic and stupid. All major leagues and such should have news of their teams' championships on the news template. So I strongly recommend you think of that. BattleshipMan (talk) 04:05, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For my thoughts on this. Pulling that off the news feed made me upset and angry. There should be sourcing to who won the Stanley Cup because that is what it's about, not about sourcing all Stanley Cup final games and such. That is what is should be about when it comes to championships in all major league sports. BattleshipMan (talk) 04:17, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All of the prior appearances have been cited as well, using rosters from those Finals. Extremely and unnecessarily tedious, but done. The Kip (talk) 04:59, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Re Thanks for cleaning up game one. As someone who is not a hockey fan, having to watch video to verify is not optimal with not being familiar with names and terminology and watching on a laptop screen. And the ads. But it's verifiable. And it wasn't your original text, so kudos on attempt to WP:PRESERVE. Was everything sourceable from the video originally, as someone else claimed, before you needed to graciously step in? It's evident it was not. Thanks for claifying my miss on the faceoff.—Bagumba (talk) 06:13, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Reply to Doing what they did deeply upset me. Sometimes making strong comments gets people's attention and, while I may go to extreme in some cases, what I say can make a lot of sense and if anyone saw what I wrote, it can make people raise awareness and comment about those suggestions in a more polite way. That's what I suggest what I said in order to have the 2023 Stanley Cup to be put back in the news template, so someone else can do it without making strong comments. BattleshipMan (talk) 04:31, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The supposedly-controversial material’s been tediously trimmed or sourced. I don’t see why this can’t be reposted now. The Kip (talk) 05:43, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Im satisifed with the individual game prose after Template:U's improvements. I went and cited the unsourced game scoring and penalty tables (feel free to re-format per any project standards). Does anyone know where the "Shots by period" data can be sourced?—Bagumba (talk) 08:40, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Shots by period can be cited to the official NHL.com Game Center/box score, but again, this is getting wildly overboard. The Kip (talk) 16:41, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support I think this is good to be posted. The pull was the right move but it looks like the issues have been addressed now. Vida0007 (talk) 09:10, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I feel we are going a bit overboard with the citation complaints - this is clearly in good enough quality to be posted. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:46, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Where are we with this one? I am going to be WP:BOLD and mark this for admin attention. If someone feels different, please revert my change. Ktin (talk) 20:40, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Re-posted. Good effort everyone, thanks for resolving the issues, seems OK now. Shame it's missed the picture slot now, but it will at least get some days in the sun. — Amakuru (talk) 22:26, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You may wish to read where it's "described below", because it fails WP:EFFECT, and it obviously has yet to be "re-analyzed afterwards" since it's still developing. Also, it's impossible for something that just happened to meet GNG because that requires WP:SUSTAINED coverage in WP:SECONDARY sources, which definitely isn't going to happen in the first few weeks. If it's not going to have coverage 10-20 years down the line, then it probably doesn't need to be written on Wikipedia. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:07, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
really? This was widely reported even outside the anglosphere, and the death of 100 people in one event is very rare and will have a lasting impact regardless of where and in what circumstances. Abcmaxx (talk) 08:30, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A 100+ boat disaster is very much comparable with other major inland and seaside boat disasters. The problem is that we're dealing with news out of Africa for all purposes making English, and if any Western-based sources harder to find. But not say the event is notable simply because of the lack of English coverage is a bad bad position. We do need more sourcing, yes, but let's not pretend this was a major disaster that we'd cover under the same scenario if it were in Europe or the US. --Masem (t) 02:15, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
English is the official language of Nigeria (says WP). The actual barriers might be the number of Nigerian editors here, search engine bias, others unfamiliarlity with Nigeria. —Bagumba (talk) 02:47, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Those are all the same effective points. Notability is not limited to what English and Western sources say, and sometimes takes a bit more leg work to get more regional sources that cover the event in depth. Masem (t) 12:14, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support. Could still use some extra sources, but minimum quality standards seem to be met. Yes this is a fluke accident which perhaps takes some bite out of the notability a bit, but 100 deaths with beyond that number missing is certainly more than just some routine event. DarkSide830 (talk) 02:32, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional support-Very tragic, should be blurbed; However, it needs some polishing and a picture.
Support An accident w/at least 103 deaths is notable enough for ITN & the article has enough details & references to meet the quality standards. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 06:27, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support—Article has been expanded and sourced. I think it's worthy of being on the main page now. As for notability, a boat capsizing with over 100 people winding up dead is (thankfully) an uncommon enough occurrence. Kurtis(talk)19:17, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:U My typical posting practice has been to have the item with the photo as the highest slot for the particular day, and the Nuggets story was the one with an available photo and was from the same date. SpencerT•C21:20, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Spencer Makes sense. In this case, the reason I asked was the boat accident was from 6/13 and the Nuggets story was from 6/12. Btw, long time -- hope all is well. Ktin (talk) 21:41, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I had seen the event was from " 12 June 2023" per the article, actually did not check the exact nomination date. Either way it's posted. Hope you've been well too! SpencerT•C04:54, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Blurb - Widely acknowledged as one of the greatest and influential writers of the 20th century and of contemporary American literature. Article is additionally a GA and there is a dedicated legacy section with a Template:Template. Textbook example of an RD blurb. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 19:54, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Undoubtedly a good writer, but “one of the greatest and influential writers of the 20th century” is an extreme overstatement. I can easily name 100 greater and more influential writers of the 20th century than him. Also, I don’t think he was greater and more influential than his contemporaries Philip Roth and Edward Albee.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:11, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, Oppose blurb. Article quality is ready to go on RD. However. I am with Kirill above that the claims of being an influential writer are absolutely not supported by the article. The Legacy sections cites only one person's opinion, nowhere near to pass that mark. --Masem (t) 20:28, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ready for RD. Blurb conversation can continue. Received an Apple News push-alert. Article is in good shape for homepage / RD. Ktin (talk) 20:37, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, Oppose blurb The writer's greatness is very much overstated here, especially when looking from a non-US perspective. Abcmaxx (talk) 20:38, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, Oppose blurb Article is GA and in good shape. His death at 89 is not a notable event in itself. McCarthy is great but the claims of his literary influence and import are being greatly overstated in this discussion. Vladimir.copic (talk) 21:08, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Blurb, Support RD. The influence of individual writers always comes down to personal taste, and I haven't seen his death even being mentioned as a "major" news story outside the Anglosphere. --TheDutchViewer (talk) 21:11, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, weak oppose blurb—Cormac McCarthy is certainly an influential and culturally significant author, but I'm not so convinced that he is quite the transformative literary figure that we would be looking for in blurbing a novelist. Kurtis(talk)21:33, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Changing to weak support for a blurb. And it is indeed very weak; McCarthy is certainly an influential and celebrated author, but I feel as though a blurb should generally be reserved for literary giants. For instance, I believe both J.D. Salinger and Harper Lee were given blurbs when they died; that's the level of significance I'm looking for. On further reflection, I think McCarthy might just barely qualify as such an author, and I'm not averse enough towards a blurb to maintain my initial opposition. Kurtis(talk)12:47, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post posting support RD, oppose blurb Article quality is good enough for ITNRD, although his death wasn't notable, and I seriously doubt he was an extraordinarily transformative figure during his lifetime. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800021:52, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb — Highly influential modern American writer with works which are increasingly included in English literature courses and curriculum in American secondary schools. Several of his works have been adapted to cinemas which have also garnered notable attention and accolades. The Requiem (talk) 22:12, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD — He's a genuinely influential American author and has received a slate of major American awards for his writing (National Book Award, Pulitzer Prize, etc). His works are also often included in US school curriculum and also generally popular with mainstream audiences in the US. Anielski-ii (talk) 22:33, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I find it flabbergasting that we're seeing this much opposition to blurbing. McCarthy was universally described as one of the most transformative figures in contemporary literature. Here's examples below.
Cormac McCarthy, long considered one of America’s greatest writers... - CNN
Writing in The New Yorker in 2005, James Wood praised Mr. McCarthy as “a colossally gifted writer” and “one of the great hams of American prose..." - NYT
Despite being relatively unknown to the public until he turned 60, McCarthy would become one of the country’s most honored and successful writers - Fox
Cormac McCarthy, maybe the greatest American novelist of my time, has passed away at 89 - Stephen king
Cormac McCarthy, one of the great novelists of American literature - NPR
Widely seen as one of the US’s greatest novelists - The Guardian
He is the great pessimist of American literature, using his dervish sentences to illuminate a world in which almost everything (including punctuation) has already come to dust - The Guardian (2009)
Though the book wasn’t initially a success, it later came to be regarded as one of the greatest novels of the 20th century - Rolling Stone
Cormac McCarthy, generally considered one of America’s greatest living authors, has died - Deadline
Sometimes macabre and excessive, but always accurate in his portrayal of the dark side of the United States, his death marks the departure of one of the last great novelists of his generationEl Pais
lEPais], DW, Le Monde, France24 among others). We've established a consensus for ITNRD blurbs and this man clearly passes it, end of story. We should not try to move the goalpost by interjecting personal literary tastes, complaining about the article's mention of his legacy (in regards to that being a posting requirement) or complaining about how US centric it would be when his death is receiving widespread, WP:RS international coverage. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 22:39, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've yet to see any obituary in this context express disappointment amongst an author's works. I wonder why they always say the same prototypical stuff in regards to a person, their accomplishments/achievements, their work(s), etc. Also yet again, KOTS becomes aggressively defensive for a nomination he did not create. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800022:48, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I made a shorter response now, if that makes you feel better. However, there's nothing wrong with sourcing arguments, especially to counteract arguments that do not seem to be based on sourced coverage, but rather say, personal taste. Speaking of both, yes newswires do exist, but analyzing coverage of his death paints a different picture: the articles about his death are not copied and pasted; they're clearly unique in who they quote, what about him they write, and the like. Also, bear in mind that most obituaries are prototypical, because virtually every news outlet have countless of pre-written obituaries in their database, waiting to be stored. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 23:16, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but what does this mean? How can this be exactly measured? I mean, in America, his books aren't universal reading material, but nor are men like Borges, Williams, and the like.That obviously means that he isn't important. The closest you can get is seeing international coverage. Aside from the listes sources above, before his death, just a little under a week ago, he was one of four international candidates nominated for South Korea's Park Kyung-ni literary prize (The Korean Herald). After a 16-year-long hiatus following his internationally acclaimed hit The Road, the publishing of his books The Passenger and Stella Maris were heralded as "worldwide literary events." - (CBC). The fundamental truth is that this individual is not just an American phenomenon. In fact, I think that those claims are a partial misreading of the descriptor American (i.e, the demonym American is taken to mean that he's mainly a American force [and obviously, there's emphasis on his contributions to American culture, but that literally (pun semi-intended) occurs to every globally-acclaimed author and their respective countries]). He is indeed covered elsewhere in the world and is definitely being studied upon abroad (even though I think that's kind of a bogus metric due to the varying educational and linguistic [especially in regards to English literacy] standards of the world). - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 23:46, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have to agree with Fakescientist8000 here. Few, if any, are denying McCarthy's influence and gusto for writing. I have read No County for Old Men and quite a few of his other works personally. The barrier for a death to enter ITN is very high and unfortunately McCarthy does not meet said barrier. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)23:04, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You have information in the lede but not repeated in the body, which is where that really should be expanded upon. But to add to this, the "one of the greatest of <X>" (whether X is a country, a genre, or similar subgrouping) is a vacuumous claim without any rationale to support why. Good reasoning to demonstration why someone is a great figure would be, for example, that their work becomes standard in the education of literature, or that they had clearly influenced a genre, or something more than just that phrase. And that all needs to be included in the article, ideally in the legacy section so a reader can understand that in the blink of an eye. --Masem (t) 00:19, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get this. Every source mentions McCarthy as ONE OF the most influential writers in his era. I mean, we can agree he's not #1, right? If so, how many American writers from this era should we blurb? This is like how we get a blurb discussion for every "pioneer" in the musical field. We can not and should not post death blurbs simply for people who are "among the best", because then we would be posting death blurbs all of the time and that is A. lowering the bar and B. quite frankly not conducive to the purposes of ITN when Deaths in 2023 exists. DarkSide830 (talk) 02:23, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Tq—Au contraire, Cormac McCarthy is very much up my alley. I've been meaning to read his books for a while now (I own a copy of Blood Meridian, still haven't so much as cracked it open). My weak opposition to a blurb is based on my own opinion that McCarthy doesn't quite qualify. Kurtis(talk)04:29, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, Weak support blurb-One of the greatest American authors of all time. Not as well known as other American authors but still influential. Still well known but I don’t know if it is enough. Kybrion (talk) 22:41, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I’m indifferent whether we blurb Cormac McCarthy or not, but I would point out that we didn’t blurb Kenzaburo Oe, the Japanese Nobel Prize winner who died recently. If we blurb famous authors, we should blurb them all, not just American ones. Khuft (talk) 22:56, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb - "fields" are entirely subjective and can be defined however is desired to promote a subject. There are countless "fields" which are insignificant or unpopular and do not receive attention. The bar should be higher in my opinion. - Indefensible (talk) 23:53, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Is there some sort of disease doing the rounds that says every second well-known American who dies gets nominated for a blurb? We really do need to clarify the policy in the area. HiLo48 (talk) 00:24, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If there is one thing that we have absolute clarity on, it is that no consensus exists for *any* change to the "sui generis" vote counting for RD blurbs. GreatCaesarsGhost01:26, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea what "sui generis" means in this context. And I DID look it up. Found several definitions along the lines of "one of a kind". Can't see how that fits. HiLo48 (talk) 01:50, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Ping I assume it means that ITN is unique on Wikipedia in that there aren't really any applicable policies or guidelines for how we select our blurbs, meaning each decision comes down to vote counting in the end. (Although in the recent golf merger and Trump arrest stories, admins have chosen to post despite the numbers, by "discarding" votes, which I think is not correct given that we have no other criteria anyway right now, and therefore no vote can be considered wrong). — Amakuru (talk) 07:14, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD Hugely respected and influential writer, over many decades. Obituary is linked on home pages of multiple newspapers of record around the world. NoonIcarus 02:18, 14 Jan une 2023 (UTC)
Support blurb - But yes I agree with HiLo48 that we really do need to clarify the policy here. For example, Knightoftheswords281 has provided the “principal criterion” needed to establish this RD as worthy of a blurb. That is: ALL the major MSM outlets in the “Anglosphere” confirm that McCarthy was one of the major writers of fiction in the English-speaking world. It’s plain and it’s simple because that’s the MSM consensus. Whereas Kiril Simeonovski’s principal criterion for a death blurb is that the writer should be a white male, because that’s the only “major writers” listed. Rather silly criterion don’t you think, unintended or not? Just goes to show that opinions against a blurb are just that: opinions. Nothing more. Otherwise what’s the “criterion”? Transformative? There’s plenty of evidence there too in the sources provided by Knight of the Swords, and a few other editors so far. Trauma Novitiate (talk) 06:01, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You provided a long list of names above and they’re all white males. I pointed out the bias of your list with the qualification “unintended or not.” Your stated “criteria” is clearly insufficient and does not provide either a policy or a procedure for determining which writers also warrant a blurb when their RD is posted. Trauma Novitiate (talk) 11:37, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I find "white males" to be a racist remark. It's the quality of works that makes a writer famous and influential, not their gender or race, so you should use a better counterargument if you want to dispute my criterion. But it's completely irrelevant. McCarthy didn't enter the literary curriculum in my country and in many other countries in the world, especially where English isn't a primary language, which is a clear indicator that he cannot be considered a household name in world literature. However extensive is the argumentation for a blurb made by Knight of the Swords above, it supports the claim that he was one of the greatest writers in American literature. I don't dispute that claim and no-one really did it in the discussion. The problem is that there's insufficient evidence that he was one of the greatest writers in world literature.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:07, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Listen, here’s your list that you came up with and all of them are “Caucasian” males: Vladimir Nabokov, Herman Hesse, Ernest Hemingway, William Faulkner, Samuel Beckett, Tennessee Williams, John Steinbeck, Jorge Luis Borges, Arthur Miller, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Günter Grass, Gabriel García Márquez Don’t get mad at me. Get mad at yourself. You can manufacture all the outrage you want. It’s your list based on your criteria. The point is that any kind of arbitrary criteria is going to implicitly or explicitly, even tacitly, includes biases. But to understand the point I’m making here, you would need to be able to negotiate the crooked & unwieldy paths of “nuance”. Something you seem unable to do. Or unwilling to do. Please don’t bother responding. I’m done with this: it’s all so exceptionally boring. It seems like you have no humility and will only continue to double-down on your false categories and criteria. Trauma Novitiate (talk) 17:08, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Ping You are accusing Kiril of racial and gendered prejudice based on the simple fact that the authors he listed in his vote all happen to be white men. When he further elaborated upon his rationale for opposing a blurb, focusing specifically on the content of his argument rather than the ethnicity or gender of the author, you doubled down and further insinuated that his oppose is at least partially—if subconsciously—influenced by racial and gender biases. That doesn't even make sense in context; Cormac McCarthy was both white and male, yet Kiril opposed blurbing him, which means he evidently holds other criteria for authors to be highlighted on the main page. But the fact that you chose to make his comment about race and gender because the authors he listed all just so happened to be similar in pigmentation and genitalia was an aspersion that you cast against his character. That is not tolerated here, and I would strongly advise you to break the habit of ascribing bigotry, including perceived "subconscious" bigotry, to people's intentions. Both on Wikipedia—because you will be blocked for it—and in general, because it's not going to endear you to anyone. Kurtis(talk)20:30, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, actually both of you are ascribing to me racial and gender biases and prejudices . Cease and desist now, especially you Kurtis. Are you not supposed to operate under the assumption that your fellow editors are operating in good faith? Which is precisely how I operated with Kiril. Just read carefully through my comments. You and Kiril are calling me out for your perceived bias about my intentions. How do you know what my intentions are? How can you say I am (or am not) operating in good faith? You can’t read my mind. It’s like Kiril saying he would blurb Margaret Atwood, and I should’ve known that beforehand. I find your remarks and accusations especially offensive Kurtis, and crossing the line. Because you understood the nuance of the argument I was making, but instead of addressing me in good faith, you went for the jugular and got all cutthroat, and accused me of having these horrible intentions. Cease and desist now, Kurtis. Both of you stop addressing me in this manner. I’ve researched Wikipedia’s guidelines and I believe there are arbitration standards and rules in place to settle matters like this. I want this to end here and now. But if either of you want to continue harassing and haranguing, let’s start the procedure. Have a good day. ~~~~ Trauma Novitiate (talk) 21:39, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have only two things to say. First, AGF is a two-way street. Second, I don't believe I specifically ascribed malice to your intentions; all I'm saying is to please refrain from accusing people of racism or sexism—including, and maybe even especially, subconscious microaggressions—based on trivial things like the fact that someone's list of authors in a single comment was not diverse enough. Editors have been indeffed for things like that. I implore you to avoid that road. Kurtis(talk)19:36, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Stats FYI, here's how the readership for this RD compares with other recent examples: RD views. I've included Clive Barker because that name is more familiar to me as an author and we have a nomination below. But that's a different Clive Barker and so the name alone isn't enough. We really need a bigger RD section to resolve these issues. Andrew🐉(talk) 06:43, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb. Not Mandela or Thatcher level, and one of many in his field rather than a standout transformative figure. — Amakuru (talk) 07:15, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb. If we are going to blurb a writer, then now is when we should do it. Influential writer, author of No country for Old Men, which won several Oscars, including for best adapted screenplay. Kirill C1 (talk) 09:00, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
One of the greatest American living authors, one of the greatest authors of his generation. There is a strong argument for a blurb. Kirill C1 (talk) 09:05, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We have a section called "Recent Deaths" to cover this sort of thing. Your opinion of his "greatness" is not really relevant. We only blurb for cases where the person so transcended the world of celebrity that the death itself is a major story, e.g. Thatcher/Mandela; and recent examples like Berlusconi and Tina Turner. With the best will in the world, and even if he did write the book that led to a major Tommy Lee Jones thriller that everyone's heard of, McCarthy doesn't rise to that level. — Amakuru (talk) 09:27, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not my opinion, it's what Guardian and Sky write (not even American outlets)
"With the best will in the world, and even if he did write the book that led to a major Tommy Lee Jones thriller that everyone's heard of, McCarthy doesn't rise to that level"
Why? He achieved in his field the same heights as Tina Turner in hers. Writers don't have the level of popularity and attention that rock stars draw. Kirill C1 (talk) 09:57, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What "influence" did he have? that is certainly not spelled out in the article (there are all of two person's opinions given towards this, which is nowhere near a level to consider transformative), and just an opinion thrown around the major sources without explanation - exactly what did he influence? Maybe there is something but we're looking for that tree in a forest of adoration without depth. What a film adaption of a book does has no backwards bearing on the author, as well. Masem (t) 12:40, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
He was described by major publications as one of the greatest American living authors and one of the greatest authors of his generation and he won Pulitzer Prize and his books became adapted and his work was analyzed and researched much and he is noted for his unique style where he wrote sentences without commas and semicolons and had excessive use of word "and". Kirill C1 (talk) 13:10, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb: Being widely called one of the America's greatest writers does not mean he is notable or well known enough to warrant a blurb. StellarHalo (talk) 09:54, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That’s like saying if it has 4 legs, it wags its tail, and barks doesn’t warrant calling it a dog. Yes I’m being snarky, but that doesn’t mean I am not making a valid point. Clearly there is no reliable criteria here at ITN for posting a RD with a blurb except for consensus. It’s pretty clear that there is no consensus here yet to post this as a blurb. Too bad. Meanwhile a dog insists on being a dog whether it is warranted or not. I still have to pick up its poop from the neighbors’s yard. Trauma Novitiate (talk) 13:28, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am pretty sure that calling a dog a "dog" is much less controversial and subjective than asserting that a writer is notable enough to get a blurb of his passing on the front page of an online encyclopedia. I don't mind blurbing this if ITN has a consistent criteria on which writers' deaths to post but there is currently none. StellarHalo (talk) 01:12, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb. Widely recognized both domestically and internationally as one of the greatest American writers as demonstrated by the breadth of news coverage as well as our own article. We should have more blurbs for authors, not less. We should've blurbed writers like Oe, and, Achebe a decade ago. The article is also particularly high-quality, being a GA. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions12:27, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, name recognition alone is not a reason to post since many highly recognizable figures are not at the top of their fields in an encyclopedically relevant context, and we should always be aware of headline-grabbing praise in obituaries. However, when that name recognition comes because of their achievement in their field such as McCarthy that is the kind of evidence we're looking for when assessing whether to blurb a RD or not. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions13:27, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that we have support !votes here going off recognizing the name or from his works and hand waving around "influential" when the rest of us are looking for something concrete that demonstrates being influential!.this important must be established in the article, not trough sources that just say he was influential, but actually fell out from his influence. Otherwise it is the type of grand posturing by editors. Masem (t) 13:33, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I launched a discussion on the Talk page on blurbing authors. I get a feeling that Cormac McCarthy has a dedicated fanbase on Wikipedia, which is why we're seeing such a heated discussion here (while other worthy authors have been completely ignored in the past). As mentioned, I personally don't mind blurbing McCarthy if we also blurb equally reputable authors - but I know we won't because all the people commenting here will ignore the next author that dies. Therefore I propose to develop criteria on the Talk page that could guide us in future in order to identify worthy authors. Khuft (talk) 15:41, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Never heard of him. I think he may have been influential within his country but I don't think he had the same international reach as others like Tina Turner or Prince Philip did. Post-support for RD of course but not for a blurb. The C of E God Save the King! (talk)10:52, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait level of violence is small for ITN posting, but if there is a clear terrorism angle, that might change the picture. Otherwise this is just domestic violence which we don't post and tend not to be good articles.--Masem (t) 22:36, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose article is quite stubby, and this is the UK equivalent of the 2023 Denver shooting here in the US. Unless a) the article is improved MASSIVELY in quality (think upper B class) AND b) the attack has some other significance, then we can post it. Until then, we're left here with a stub with little notability outside of Nottingham and maybe England. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800023:26, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It was reported worldwide, including non-English speaking countries and President Macron formally sent condolences to the UK. Abcmaxx (talk) 08:37, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We have far too great an obsession on creating articles on any crime just because if a burst if coverage, when in reality we have to ask if the crime will havebany relevance 10 years from now. Theres no indication this will recieve sustained coverage. So deletion seems wholly appropriate. Masem (t) 13:42, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's very clear that these attacks are linked & notable enough for an article. They have received a great deal of media coverage in the UK & some internationally. I'm sure that any discussion to attempt to delete it would quickly form a strong consensus to keep it. There will clearly be continued coverage regarding prosecution of the suspect who was arrested whilst driving the stolen van, as well as debates regarding the police, immigration, mental health services etc. This is a long way from being a run-of-the-mill crime. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:44, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose unless there's evidence that the suspect is a member or supporter of a terrorist group such as Islamic State. Attacks with similar casualty levels happen every day somewhere in the world. However, it's far more notable & international than the Denver shooting, which was local & non-fatal & shouldn't be nominated. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 14:38, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Unless its literally the former president we don't post things going to trial. The case won't have any real significance until a decision is made and even then its significance is conditional on what the decision is.
@Idislikenames Admittedly, the verdict would only involve changes to Montana's constitution, as the youth plaintiffs didn't even ask for an economic compensation, from what I understood. Still, I thought it was a notable event because not even the Juliana v. United States case, which had a much broader purpose, reached a similar goal that quickly. Oltrepier (talk) 13:29, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Definitely an interesting case, but a trial starting isn't going to be significant enough for ITN especially when it doesn't involve high-profile individuals. Perhaps a verdict might be worth posting, but based on your reply above, it seems that even that would be limited in scope. ---- Patar knight - chat/contributions13:33, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - nice idea for a blurb, but unfortunately doesn't meet ITNCRIT. Only affects one state in one country. If it was a US Constitutional matter then possibly, but it's more likely that the verdict would be posted than the proceedings. Anarchyte (talk) 13:34, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Inmediate Support - Article is great and covers one of the big 4 American leagues. - Mjeims (talk) 3:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
Comment "Player statistics" still not updated. I know it's not prose, but at the very least it should show some players playing 5 games. Also, waiting for someone to say basketball is a minor sport and is not cricket... Howard the Duck (talk) 04:00, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post posting oppose It seems that the "In the News" section has transformed itself into a sports reel. This tradition must change. The Olympics, World and Continental Championships deserve mentions but are we going to post each and every national league finals for each and every sport? The Judo world championships recently ended. I don't remember it being posted. This is turning into a " what guys like club". Curiously enough, I'm sure synchronised swimming will never be mentioned. Sorry for the rant. Nothing will change, in any case Varoon2542 (talk) 12:02, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Ping The Judo World Championships are not going to be posted unless someone nominates them. Since you've brought it up, why not nominate it next year? In fact, if there are any stories that you would like to see nominated or not nominated, you've found the right place. As far as whether the NBA Finals should be posted, this is an WP:ITN/R (recurring item) which is generally assumed to have met the significance standard in WP:ITNSIGNIF after 5 or 10+ years of consistent consensus. If you'd like to suggest its removal, you can go to WT:ITN and do so there. Nothing changes unless you participate. Many people have jumped into ITN/C recently because they have their own ideas on how it should be operating. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)12:31, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Given the demographics of Wikipedia editors, I might even add what "north american guys like". Anyway, Wikipedia is american so you get to decide. If "gals" were so much consulted initiatives like the Wikipedia:WikiProject Women wouldn't even exist. Good day. Varoon2542 (talk) 14:53, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A male systemic bias exists, a North American bias doesn't, it's the other way around. Non-North Americans surely have a slight minority here and it's surely only going to strengthen as billions of exploited ex-British colony people get richer and (until full industrialization) contribute to world overpopulation at a faster rate than North America does (more than 2.1 births per human who can give birth). Honestly Earth's best basketball players often don't even care enough about the World Basketball Championships to bother to play much less the lower nation vs. nation ones like the Pan-American (AKA USA/Canada/Latin America/Brazil/Belize/non-Latin Guyanas+Caribbeans) Games and Pan-American Basketball Championship. Even the Olympics reduces their vacation time (mid-June if they go deep into the NBA Finals to reporting to their teams in late September), Michael Jordan only played for the US Olympic team as a 21-year old and a 29-year old despite still being undisputed best player on Earth as a 33-year old. Earth's best basketballers all play in the USA national league (one team in Canada), just like Earth's best footballers kick the ball in EPL, Bundsliga, La Liga, Serie A, Ligue 1, Portugal league and so on. Just because "intranational" is inferior in Europe, soccer, running, judo and many other Olympic sports doesn't mean it's not very important in basketball. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Extreme lack of citations, coupled with a handle of CN tags and entirely unreferenced paras. This needs its sourcing fixed badly. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800010:27, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support The top read article on Wikipedia yesterday with over a million views. That makes him bigger than Berlusconi. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:53, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We consider the qualitu of the article and number of cn. There are plenty of obits and sources, including The Guardian, to add from. Kirill C1 (talk) 14:16, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
On day #2, this was still the most read biography on Wikipedia – getting more views than Cormac McCarthy, Silvio Berlusconi or anyone else. By omitting such prominent people, ITN makes the error of omission and so its quality is poor. The quality of these articles should not be an obstacle because our readers can and do read them regardless. And we don't see many resulting complaints about them so we? Readers really don't care in the slightest about such minutiae. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:53, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ITN doesn't care about pageviews. We are looking at quality once the newswirthiness factor has passed And that readers are clearly finding that article w/o help of ITN doesn't imply there is any rush to post. --Masem (t) 13:11, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It's a two-day blackout, involving only around half the site, over a comparatively minor business move, likely to have little to no enduring effect. Not ITN-worthy. The Kip (talk) 22:52, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Are you kidding me? We didn't even post the Great YouTube/Google blackout of 2018, which was much more known and reported in the media than this. There isn't even an article for the blackouts, because if there was, it'd get sent straight to AfD, where it would belong. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800022:54, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose since Reddit top staff have said they don't plan to roll back the API charges even with the blackout. --Masem (t) 00:39, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose—I'm not saying that I would be opposed to blurbing any online blackout, but there needs to be some truly extraordinary circumstances for me to sign onto it. A bunch of lower-level subreddits going private for a couple of days to protest a business model that is not likely to do a whole lot more than inconvenience sub moderators is decidedly not extraordinary. Kurtis(talk)00:41, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Article's orange tagged, with good reason. So many unsourced paras and statements make this article's quality atrocious, and thus it cannot appear on ITNRD without proper revisions. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800014:43, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As per above. Seems to be a lack of citations throughout and various dubious claims and I think the Senate section should be re-written in prose form. Crecy1346 (talk) 17:55, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, blurb Article seems to be in relatively good shape, some citation needed templates need to be resolved though. If this is done, I see no reason why this should not be a blurb, considering Berlusconi's significance for Italian politics, media, sports etc. Zwerg Nase (talk) 08:50, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb. I haven't looked at the article in detail but the news of his death should lead to sufficient activity to fix whatever few things that are still in need of fixing. I do support a blurb as well, like him or not, Berlusconi was probably the most transformative (negatively and positively) figure in Italian politics of the last decades. Regards SoWhy08:58, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb Berlusconi has been an influential and important figure in Italian politics for over 30 years and served as prime minister for many years. Let's not rush, the article is already being updated. --Vacant0 (talk) 09:06, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb. Textbook case of blurb. Influential, fixture in European politics and entertainment. There are numerous works about him, including film where he is protagonist. Kirill C1 (talk) 09:17, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb. Probably one of the most influential figures in both politics and sports/football (particularly A.C. Milan). Some cleaning up is needed in some parts of the article but this should definitely be blurbed. Vida0007 (talk) 09:31, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb. Highly influential figure that continued to achieve international attention long after his tenure as PM had ended. Actualcpscm (talk) 10:18, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Arbitrary break (Not sure why this was reverted earlier) It seems there is a clear consensus for a blurb. However, the article is not ready to be posted, as large sections are completely unreferenced. Instead of piling on supports or opposes, work on the article first. --Tone10:41, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I support a blurb, but the article is not even close to ready to post for RD to start with. Tons of uncited paragraphs. --Masem (t) 12:02, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb per all above. The article is currently based on 505 sources, there are some more to add for sure, but it certainly passes the threshold for being on ITN already. Yakme (talk) 13:02, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus to post RD and blurb when quality standard is met. Currently, there are a dozen citation needed tags on the article. - Fuzheado | Talk13:30, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose per previous opposers given the article's current quality. The article on Berlusconi has 1 BSN and 12 CN tags, which is way too much for a Template:Tooltip. The article about his death has 1 CN tag, which maybe someone can find a source for that claim (Berlusconi is, after all, a controversial figure). However, Berlusconi was an extremely important figure in 21st century politics, and I would give my heartiest support when the article meets quality standards (in other words, remove/source all unsourced claims). Side-note: because Berlusconi now has an article concerning his death, the blurb (should it be posted on the main page) should be updated to link the article about his death, such as "[[Death of Silvio Berlusconi|dies at the age of 86]].". Thanks. — 3PPYB6(T / C / L) — 16:23, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is overwhelming consensus to post when the article is ready. This section is to aid in improving it.
Taking Template:U's idea and running with it. Discussion at this point should now focus on getting the article up to sufficient quality. To that end, further discussion about this can take place here. The various {{cn}} tags still need to be addressed, at the time of the last comment. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)18:16, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
O mangiar questa minestra o saltar questa finestra (take it or leave it)
There seems to be no question about Berlusconi's death but the quality of the article is a whole other can of worms and simply looking for uncited content won't do. I just took a quick look and immediately noticed the following issues:
The lead has many citations. This is anomalous because, for an article of this size, the lead is supposed to be a summary of the body. And there are not just citations in the lead -- there are strings of them and that's usually the sign of controversy and disputes.
For example, the lead says "Berlusconi rose into the financial elite of Italy in late 1960s after being influenced and assisted by both Italian politician Piersanti Mattarella and singer Elena Zagorskaya". These people don't appear anywhere else in the article and so it is either an alternate theory about the subject's rise or it hasn't been properly integrated with the subject's detailed history. The sentence has two citations and a Template:Tl tag. The talk page doesn't explain why a better source is needed and so just sorting this single sentence out will require detailed research and discussion.
In the body, I see a bizarre table of the subject's legal history. There are some sections about this too with curious titles like "Ongoing trials". These say things like "As of October 2013, Berlusconi had only been convicted by the final appeal instance in 1 out of 32 court cases." or "As of 2017, Berlusconi's appeal regarding his six-year public office ban was pending before the European Court of Human Rights." As we're now in 2023 and the subject is dead, these give the impression of being wildly out of date. I suppose that this is layers of proseline which will need to be gone through again to make them coherent and current.
So, if ITN is wanting to report the death of the subject then it should just get on with it. ITN is in no position to evaluate the quality of such a large and complex article without a thorough examination of all such intricate details. And ITN has no special competence to do this.
ITN is appropriate to look at the state of an article and judge if it represents some of WP'S best work, and then say it is not appropriate for the Main Page if the quality is sufficiently far away from that mark. That this article was in such bad shape is the fault of the editors that have added to it without following the strict standards of BLP (re sourcing and other details). Thats too common in RDs and RD blurbs. We aren't going to post a very substandard article. Now if the sourcing was greatly improved and the article written in prosecute, then maybe we would be in a place that we could consider posting, even though there would still be lots of possible improvement left. Masem (t) 21:00, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Prosecute – what does that mean, please? And, you're still not getting it – sourcing is not the quality issue here. The article already has over 500 citations and over 20 pieces of further reading including substantial books. The quality issues are coherence, consistency, accuracy, balance, synthesis and more. Simply reading through the article is a substantial task as it's over 18 thousand words of prose. Is there anyone here who has actually read through it all, let alone checking those 500+ sources? Andrew🐉(talk) 21:24, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I meant "proseline" (that got autocorrected). We are not asking for anything like a GA review where all 500 sources would need to be checked. We should be looking to make sure the majority of sources are from RSes, that sources appear in all expected places (at least one at the end of each paragraph, one after every quote and every subjective statement). We aren't looking for perfect English, but more than piecemeal that I've seem poor foreign-to-English translations may give. It might be a 5 minute check to review the basics for posting, so that is not a massive effort as you are suggesting. Masem (t) 00:44, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I made a five minute check and found multiple issues. As the article is so huge, this indicates that there are lots more issues to find. And thanks for the explanation of "prosecute". I was parsing it as "prose cute" like meet cute and wondered whether it was a flirty new way of writing! :) Andrew🐉(talk) 12:02, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Given there is only expected to be one day of mourning (this 14th), compared with the Queen's or Thatcher's death, that article seems wholly unnecessary, particularly as it overly relies on interaction reactions related to passing (which is a terrible thing to be launching an article with) Masem (t) 00:41, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The main Silvio Berlusconi article is in poor shape too. That cat is already out of the bag as it got about half a million readers yesterday. It would be better to focus on the death article as readers are less likely to find that themselves and its scope is more specific to the event. Andrew🐉(talk) 10:06, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It should definitely be the main BLP page, not the death page. The latter has almost nothing of general interest to the reader. You're right about the cat being out of the bag, this is is always the case - the vast majority of readers don't find articles in the news because it's listed on ITN, and really our job should just be to guide them there and showcase, not make all these qualitative decisions about significance. — Amakuru (talk) 10:22, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Update: I added sources where there were CN's. Only one CN is left, for which it will take more time/experience to look for an appropriate source. Yakme (talk) 12:34, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Yakme: I see that you removed the top-level "More citations needed" tag with edit summary Template:Tq.[35] However, the general tag is meant to address the overall article, which is not dependent on individual Template:Tl tags being present or not. At any rate, there's still many unsourced paragraphs, let alone other unsourced sentences at the end of paragraphs. At a minimum, I've individually tagged paragraphs that are fully unsourced.—Bagumba (talk) 02:33, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
from a sourcing standpoint we are still not close to ready. There are many paragraphs without a citation, and several more that do not have an ending citation. I do have a separate concern about super long paragraphs that have only one or two citations at the end (there should be multiple inline citations even if they come from the same work, just so it is clear that the whole paragraph appears cited) but for this purpose I would overlook that for posting. --Masem (t) 20:36, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, there are entire paragraphs without any references, most prominently in:
Template:Ec I mean yeah, the cite at the end of the paragraph is not just a random box ticking exercise. If it's the only one, then The cite in question should cover most of the material in that paragraph. Otherwise further Template:Tl tags Are merited. — Amakuru (talk) 21:14, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb What on earth is going on with this why is Silvio Berlusconi's death not listed amongst recent deaths?! There's actually an argument for this being a 'news story' too. Ridiculous that this death of a very, very famous politician and business magnate is not on the opening page. Those who can, please sort it out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.148.54.196 (talk) 06:19, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Second update – I fixed the additional CN's that were inserted. Still only one is left (same as before). The citation status is not perfect, but I think it's enough to meet ITN requirements. Yakme (talk) 07:57, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. It's understandable there's a lot of enthusiasm to get this posted, but there are still lines lacking citations in Controversies. Per WP:BLPCRIME and WP:BLPPUBLIC, citing these is of vital importance if we are posting this to the Main Page especially as a blurb. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)13:40, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't you help out and at least add maintenance templates where you think there is something missing? I am trying to fix the issues you are raising but every time I solve a batch of them, you mention new ones. This is not so helpful. Yakme (talk) 13:54, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. It's not helpful for ITN to be giving a piecemeal review. The editors on the page have been quite diligent about addressing the specific issues that were raised before. Edge3 (talk) 14:19, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In all honesty, this is probably about ready to be posted in my eyes. There's been some massive improvements since this was first nominated for ITN/C. It's just unfortunate that the policies for highly public BLP individuals are as stringent as they are. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)15:35, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I have fixed up a few areas of the article that needed citation, but unfortunately a comb-through has identified 12 more. Will work on them as and when I can. Feel like we're getting close now. Still wouldn't support Death and state funeral of Silvio Berlusconi being the bold link - that's not what people are looking for, and not the entry that would be RD. — Amakuru (talk) 20:15, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not every sentence has ref. Sectio Family background and personal life, second paragraph has sentences without refs. Also Business career, especially section Milano due. Maybe there are sources for these facts somewhere in article, but they are not in these places. Kirill C1 (talk) 11:33, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We don't need to have every single sentence with a reference, some references are related to the previous 2 or 3 sentences. Anyway I am going to have a look and fix also these refs. But again if you take the time to look at these problems, then please add maintenance tags so it's easier for others to find and fix the issues. Doing like this means double the work. Yakme (talk) 11:43, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:V states that the following sentences need inline citations: Template:Tq I really do not think that the sentences that demand CNs fall under this category. Demanding citations for every sentence is a standard we wouldn't even hold featured articles to. I think this is plenty ready to be posted. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)12:52, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's really ridiculous, to be frank. Other places in Wikipedia don't require in-line citations for every single sentence, and ITN should not be applying a higher standard. Edge3 (talk) 16:00, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Ping Got any thoughts now on the state of this article? Perhaps it's not perfectly cited, but it's surely in much better shape and the Main Page exposure might help get it polished up. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)16:01, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted the marked-ready due to still several paragraphs lacking any citation, mostly in the early political history. (Separately I don't think the standalone death and funeral article needs to be seperate...take out the list of those in attendance and trim the reactions, and all that fits in the main bio. Masem (t) 18:12, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not seeing any major CN tags or sections that should be complicating this process. If there is, please tag the areas so we can fix them. I've seen the process this article has been going through and the article rn is in a far better shape than it was when this nomination began. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 20:16, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ready: I now made sure that all paragraphs in the political history section have at least one reference. This is the last chance to post this blurb I think. Yakme (talk) 08:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Posted - I have just fixed up what looked like the last few remaining places needing cites, so at long last, this is posted. Good effort everyone, and apologies if the citations needed were in dribs and drabs from my end - I kept thinking I'd found them all then spotting more. — Amakuru (talk) 09:34, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But the lead still has similar issues. For example, it says "Berlusconi was the first person to assume the premiership without having held any prior government or administrative offices." This claim doesn't seem to appear elsewhere in the article and it doesn't seem to be cited. And it doesn't seem to be true as the same might be said about Mussolini. Tsk.
And I'm still not understanding a lead where some claims and statements are cited and others aren't. Should every uncited sentence there have a Template:Tl or what? With an orange Template:Tl tag to cover the general issue...
The criminal and legal history seems to have been trimmed as I'm not seeing so much obvious proseline now. But it's so complex that it's hard to tell what has been done and there's no discussion for that.
Meanwhile, the Death and state funeral of Silvio Berlusconi article has become reasonably respectable and is much more digestible. As that's more specific and recent, I reckon that article ought to be the bold link in the blurb as it's currently too easy to miss.
That death and funeral article is in terrible shape. 90% of the content is the people in attendance and the massive reaction section. What is actually useful material should be on the bio page, including incorporating some of the reactions into Berlusconi's legacy section. Masem (t) 12:10, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the Template:Xt sentence; I tried to cite it, but really can't see any source mentioning that, and such claims are always difficult to verify even for the media, so seems like it shouldn't be there. If you have any other examples, feel free to raise or edit yourself. We did our best here to comb out the most obvious lacks, but as noted the review is only ever as good as the time people have to do it. — Amakuru (talk) 13:44, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose There are 4 uncited works in the Selected works section. Please fix this. All issues have now been fixed. Support. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800023:51, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, There seems to be a missing citation in the Acting Prime Minister section. Once that issue is rectified then I support posting Crecy1346 (talk) 17:50, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Procedural Close - if it's not ready, don't nominate. This isn't a board to get people to help work on articles. Nfitz (talk) 23:48, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's quite normal for articles to be nominated when they still have loose ends or are incomplete in some way. And it's quite normal for editors to pitch in and help with issues like sourcing. This is especially likely with breaking news. The article in this case is marked with a Template:Tl template and is being updated by a variety of editors. The nomination should remain open because the alternative would be reverts or renominations which would tend to provoke an edit war.
As the procedural issue is dominating and complicating this nomination, I have started a discussion on the main ITN talk page: Election process.
Cannot agree, RD is equivalent to ITNR and numerous times comments by users help in identifying key areas that need improvement in that space (nearly almost always really), the same is the case with ITNR many a times. Multiple times nominators ask for help in the nom comment directly, nothing wrong with that as this is one of the forums for that; we are volunteers after all and can do with a little bit of help from each other :). Gotitbro (talk) 08:47, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on quality, support in principle - the article needs work as Alsor stated, however strongest possible oppose to any premature "procedural" close per WP:BURO and ITN policy - absolutely nowhere does it state that articles for ITN candidates have to be in emasculate shape when nominated, only when posted. Nowhere in #How_to_nominate_an_item or anywhere else on ITN is a policy of not nominating subpar articles endorsed, only posting. If you honestly believe that quality should determine if an article gets nominated, than prepare to remove almost all RD noms, most ITNR noms, a good chunk of blurb noms, and, frankly most content nominated. Dictating whether nominations should be made over something trivial as article quality (trivial as in not even being on the MP yes) is nonsense and a borderline (at least) WP:BURO violation, and considering that there have been users who have attempted to pull similar actions in the past, I will state that I will strongly oppose any attempt to normalize this on ITN. @Nfitz and @Rockstone35, I strongly advise both y'all in the future to achieve consensus before attempting to call for action completely untethered from any site-wide or ITN policy. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 01:45, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ITN policy very clearly talks about quality, User:Knightoftheswords281. WP:ITN clearly says one of the purposes is "Template:Tq". Further down WP:ITNCRIT tells us that "Template:Tq". As elections like this are ITNR, that means the ONLY way to evaluate the article is by article quality and updated content. If that's all we can do, then all we can do is reject it. If the nominator is fully aware that the article isn't ready, they shouldn't be nominating it. That anyone who participates in ITN thinks that article quality is a trivial part of the process, shocks me. If you are going to particpate in ITN, I'd suggest you read WP:ITN carefully, and apply it - rather than your own personal standards.
I see no reason anything should be nominated, especially those that are ITNR, until they are almost ready to go. We see lots of nominations where the quality should be better (though a nomination on the grounds that it's not ready is unusual!). Many times the nominations seem to be "nominate first, and read the article later" - which is obviously unacceptable. There'd be less work to do if articles were ready when they are nominated. I don't see issue rejecting (with no prejudice in resubmitting) articles that are very much not ready.
You mention emasculate shape ... I've been staring at a dictionary ... do you mean immaculate? Presumably not, as we'd never post anything if they had to be immaculate when we posted them - let alone nominating. I'm really not sure what you mean here.
You also refer to no mention of quality in #How_to_nominate_an_item. That's because it's the instructions on how to do something; not when to do something. If you read closely, you'll see that it refers to WP:ITN that clearly discusses quality. Nfitz (talk) 03:02, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nowhere in WP:ITN and WP:ITNCRIT does it states that noms shouldn't be posted if quality is subpar - again, there's a difference between nominations and posted items; all of ITN's policies only refer to the latter. Yes, items ought to be nominated before posting, but the quality situation can improve over the course of the nom.
WP:STRAWMAN. I did not say that article quality is a trivial facet, I stated that it should be a trivial facet in nominating. Template:Tq - even though I could have been a little more clear, it's still clear that I'm not referring to posting from the parenthetical portion of that statement. Frankly, I suggest you re-read WP:ITN; nothing in there supports the argument that noms for articles of subpar quality should be closed.
Firstly, almost every nom these days openly acknowledge poor quality issues if they exist within the articles, so folks are definitely reading before nominating. Secondly, ITN stands for In The News. ITN has to operate at a rapid paste to keep up with the news as much as possible. You may respond by stating that Wikipedia is a Template:Tq (I forgot the exact term and page), but this holds as much weight on ITN who unironically use WP:NOTNEWS on In The News as a reason to oppose. Hence why stories are nominated shortly after they broke, and not several hours or days later when their quality improves. Often times, these articles were literally just created, or in the case of updated articles, just had their newsworthy event occur. Article creation and improvement takes time.
Which brings up a key point: that in spite of attempts here and in the past to downplay and even deny this, an integral facet of Itn is indeed improving article quality. Someone on here once stated that ITN was created from how Wikipedia was able to cover 9/11 in such detail as it was ongoing (though interestingly enough, Template:User himself was one of the folks criticizing me in that linked discussion). ITN has a decent track record with article improvement. I mean, just look at RDs for example. Majority of items on ITN have their quality at the very least buttressed by being nominated. Additionally ITN brings in exposure for these topics as well. For example, not only would a lot of articles not have their quality improved if we set this insanely high standard, but additionally, most wouldn't even be nominated due to said quality issues, thus not only hindering article development, but also basically making their chances nil since without being nominated, no one would even know about some of them (RDs are a perfect example). There is absolutely nothing wrong with this facet in ITN: in fact, it's largely beneficial. Both of y'all seem to insinuate that Alsor was "demanding" y'all improve the article, which is not true. It was 11 am in his country of Spain when he nominated and he presumably went to sleep afterwards. All he stated was that someone could work on it while he was asleep. Now tbh, that final sentence did kind of insinuate that he made the nomination so that others can work, but I don't see it; I see someone (who did in fact work in article, which makes this character assassination even more bogus) about to go to sleep and nominating an article before going to bed. That final sentence may have also been butchered by his Engrish. Honestly, the fact that his comments caused such vitriolic comments as your Template:Tq, or @Rockstone35's Template:Tq is ridiculous. Are y'all that easily offended? Also, yes, as insinuated by the aforementioned comments, WP:VOLUNTEER is a thing, but that does not mean that editors cannot help each other or make a suggestion of such. How this got twisted into Alsor being lazy and wanting others to do the work for him is beyond me.
Hyperbole meets pedantry. Yes, I mean immaculate, although emasculation is a perfect descriptor of what would occur to ITN's process if we were to implement you and Rockstone's view.
You called for a procedural close - i.e, policy based. If it really was that important, it would have been featured there or somewhere in the big blue box located above.
In fact, while on the topic of the blue box, come to think of it, if we're talking about nominations, why are you even concerning yourself with WP:ITN, which is about how an item should look when posted to the main page, rather than the guidelines listed above here on ITN/C, which is a literal rundown of what to do when nominating? In fact, while re-reading the post, I came across this from #Voicing_an_opinion_on_an_item:
This is a clear repudiation of the belief than articles ought to be in great shape when nominated. If that was really the case, there would be no need to give a status on article quality when its basically presupposed.
To conclude, I again highly suggest not making these statements completely untethered from ITN/C policy. If you and Rockstone have an issue, take it to WT:ITN and form consensus, instead of attempting to enforce acts that go against established policy and precedent under the guise of being Template:Tq. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 06:01, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:U, ITNC, and Wikipedia in general, is not the place for your theses and/or essays. In the future, please keep your responses short (maybe 2-3 paras at most). This is a level of response due for the WP:DRN or even WP:AN. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800014:47, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like you are pulling someone's leg. There have always been articles nominated here that are not ready of which we have all, kindly, contributed to improve (and not just discuss their notability or degree of quality). How irresponsible. _-_Alsor (talk) 05:39, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm 100% serious User:Alsoriano97. Can you point to another nomination for an ITNR where the nomination basis was "it's not ready yet"? What's the point, all you get are mindless "Wait" and "Support when ready" comments, which have no relevant meaning - as it's ITNR - and not even a contentious ITNR topic. Literally the only nomination basis possible is quality - and if the nomination basis is "article is not ready" then what's the frigging point? Even more concerning is that some new users here think that quality is a trivial part of the process (for an ITNR!). Nfitz (talk) 05:50, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What is with the persistent strawmanning? Firstly, by default, the principle nomination basis is it being ITNR, that's it. Secondly, even looking at Alsor's nom comment half his point wasn't even about the quality - it was the historicality of this moment.
Yes, the waste that is all these "support when ready" and "wait" comments, we should wait until the article is finished and get just a bunch of "support" comments instead... because that's better? It's ITNR, if you're analyzing the "quality" of !votes, you're not going to be impressed. You keep going on about Template:Tq if they're not ready, but by that logic, what's the point of nominating ITNRs in the first place since even under your nomination criteria (which is absolutely absurd to say; as if ITN didn't already have a problem with self-aggrandizing, idiosyncratic, ludicrously high-bar, and or dopey posting criteria, we now have to deal with nominating criteria as well [which unlike posting criteria, isn't even acknowledged in ITN's guidelines]), we'd only nominate articles when they're ready to go. At that point, why not just gather the ITN admins and just have them look over WP:ITN/R and post if the articles ever reach MP-quality.
Again, no one stated that quality is unimportant (yet another strawman and also a little bit of WP:BITE as well), but nowhere in ITN/C's guidelines, or elsewhere on ITN is nominating items governed to this degree. Reading this reply, the way to speak to me indicates that you at the very least partially know that, so as such, I will again suggest heeding Template:User's advice in that linked May discussion in my comment above and taking this to WT:ITN if this is something that you're that passionate about. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 06:16, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't disagree with you more, Knights - and if this was an ANI discussion, I'd recommend a topic ban for ITN with your opinion that quality is a trivial issue at ITN. (striking that - I noticed that this was explained further in the TLDR above) Nfitz (talk) 16:29, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What an incredibly self-righteous attitude. If nothing else, an unready ITNR nom brings attention to the event and encourages editing. It also helps provide a yearly log of the outcomes of individual ITNR items. If it's not ready, oppose on quality or ignore it. There's no need for horses. Anarchyte (talk) 10:34, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You are missing the issue here User:Anarchyte. First, it's not about whether it's recorded at ANI or no; the nominator said they would return the following day to improve the article. So simply nominate it the following day, if that's the intent; it's like some think there's some points scored by being the first to nominate, while in reality there are points lost, for not fixing it first. Secondly, the belief by some new editors here that quality is trivial at ITN is a very major issue, when the truth is, that for ITNR topicf Quality is paramount - if not the ONLY issue!(striking that - I noticed that this was explained further in the TLDR above) Third - don't violate WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF. Disagree with me all you want, but you crossed the line there. Nfitz (talk) 16:33, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Article is blue tagged, which isn't bad, but it does say that the article needs some work, which it does. Too many tables and yet too little prose, the usual election article flaw. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800021:54, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose No results prose, short aftermath section, and no mention of election campaigning at all. The background section should be also re-written as it contains unsourced content and material that is not mentioned in some of the citations. The electoral lists are also unsourced. --Vacant0 (talk) 13:55, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on quality. The main article (the 2023 French Open) has far too little prose about the event that we have come to expect at ITN. --Masem (t) 16:43, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The article has no prose to speak of. Also please format the blurb in the correct fashion. The players shouldn't be bolded. — Amakuru (talk) 17:17, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Article is just full of lists, with little to no prose outside of the lead and maybe one other section. Needs a lot of work. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800018:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Ed—the specific articles for both the Men's and Women's singles should be posted, rather than the one linked to in the blurb. No comment on either article's quality, as I haven't looked over either of them. Kurtis(talk)00:24, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose until an account of the race is added -- this is reminding me of Eurovision with so much space devoted to pre-race material and very little devoted to the actual event. Ed[talk][majestic titan]21:46, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose on quality as there isn't enough prose for me to be comfortable with posting. Once more is added, feel free to ping me and I will reassess.Support All issues have been addressed. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800015:46, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Re: the soccer events posted here -- both of them seem to be between soccer clubs and not between countries. Ktin (talk) 20:11, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support in principle. It's the biggest match in Test cricket, and we posted it last time. Indeed, the optics of posting The Ashes (a series in which only two nations compete) while not posting the championship which involves everyone would be dreadful. It's not that far off in terms of quality - a few more citations needed here and there, get rid of the dreadful MOS:ACCESS-violating table-within-a-table in the route to the final section, and then probably good to go. I think there's a strong case for making this ITN/R. — Amakuru (talk) 17:15, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While we can not read the minds of any of the Australian players, we should evaluate this event individually. Also, we posted this one last time. Has anything changed significantly since the last time that would have us not post this time? Ktin (talk) 20:09, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Amakuru References have all been added now. If you find any other references missing, please let know and I can help fix them. Re: the MOS:ACCESS table, I do not know how to fix that one. If you can help, or if others can help that would be great. Ktin (talk) 20:08, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Ping I've split the results and the league table into two seprate tables, to alleviate this issue. Also added a source for the results. THink it looks fine now. For GA I would expect the prose in the "route to the final" sction to be actually fleshed out, but for ITN that's OK, as long as the main match's prose is there. Happy to support, thanks for the update. — Amakuru (talk) 21:08, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support The criteria for sports on ITN is the top league in a game, which this is, in its most prestigious format. We posted it the last time, don't see why we should not now. Gotitbro (talk) 20:45, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is the championship game in the oldest and most prestigious format of cricket. It doesn't make sense to post the completion of the ODI World Cup and T20 World Cup, but not this match. Regarding comparisons made above with UEFA Super Cup or the FIFA World Club Cup, that is a false equivalence, because, as noted above, those are matches between local teams, whereas the ICC World Test Championship is contested by countries (just like the Association Football World Cup, Cricket World Cup or T20 World Cup). Regarding The Ashes, yes the Ashes have a longer history, but as noted above, it is only contested by two specific countries, and not by all test-playing nations. Chrisclear (talk) 03:20, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support championship game for Test cricket and very significant, on the level of the ODI and T20 World Cups. ITN/R is not a prerequisite for posting an event. AryKun (talk) 09:25, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While I do not have strong opinions for or against that section, that orange tag has been added recently. That said, I have removed it because the previous finals also seems to have had that section. If that section needs to go, please get rid of that section, but, holding up this article from making it to the homepage based on that orange tag might not be needed. Courtesy tagging Template:Ping. Ktin (talk) 05:06, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think I mentioned that you placed the tag. Either way, the section has been kindly removed by the IP editor above. If you or any admin is available, would appreciate your action on this thread. It is ready. Thanks. Ktin (talk) 16:41, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support pending the resolution of the potential problem w/the "Broadcasting" section. This seems like a significant event for cricket & the "Broadcasting" section seems like the only holdup. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 05:23, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why is it not suitable, User:Alex-h; it seems more notable than some things that are ITNR such as local leagues like the USA NBA play-off and derby-type stuff like The Ashes. Nfitz (talk) 14:47, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus to post with administrative questions - In evaluating the article quality for posting, I still had some concerns. Since I am not a cricket expert, I'm raising them here for feedback.
Cricket. The term "cricket" is not used at all in the first paragraph, or the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th paragraphs. It also does not show up in the infobox. The first mention of the word "cricket" is in a small "Source" statement in the League table. This seems a bit odd, as the article's opening should clarify what the sport name is. A quick look at similar articles shows "Test cricket" in the first graf, which seems to be a best practice: 2021–2023 ICC World Test Championship, 2019–2021 ICC World Test Championship, 2023–2025 ICC World Test Championship.
NPOV. In the first graf, are the phrases "emerged triumphant" and "Australia's maiden conquest" acceptable as NPOV? If it is typical language for neutral cricket coverage, that's fine. However, I did not find similar language in a quick browse at other cricket results articles.
Support upon notability. I also believe that ITN\R should be updated to include he World Test Championship as it is the premier international competition in test cricket. Crecy1346 (talk) 18:39, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on notability and quality. A happy(?) ending to a tragic accident, but not front-page-worthy. Article is also effectively a stub. The Kip (talk) 04:14, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The cave rescue was far far more difficult to achieve rescue compared to finding survivors in a jungle area. Masem (t) 16:32, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - This need an alt because we are not saying anything "miraculously" happened on the front page. -- KTC (talk) 12:42, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. You really can't compare this to the Tham Luang cave rescue, which was a slow-developing rescue that was covered over the entire length of the rescue process relatively heavily by the media. While this news is great for the kids and certainly miraculous, the broader impact is limited. By contrast, would we post an ITN item for a plane crash with 4 deaths? Unlikely. DarkSide830 (talk) 15:22, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I do not care if this is news in Latin America: both articles have atrocious quality as of now, with one of them being entirely unsourced. Also, 4 children were rescued. If they died, we wouldn't post that. I can't see myself supporting this blurb in any merit. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800015:43, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The original crash was a private plane with only 9 passengers, which we would normally not have posted unless one of the persons on board was notable. That four children survived doesn't change that. It's a "feel good" story, but not appropriate for ITN. --Masem (t) 16:33, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support - front page news, especially in its home country of Columbia Colombia. We frequently complain about how we need to combat our "western/Eurocentric/US-biases" but when countries outside of the west (or in this case, the western core since Latin America is apart of the west in a peripheral sense) have noteworthy stories receiving widespread coverage nationally, we don't post because it's Template:Tq or a Template:Tq, or how we would (supposedly) not post if they died (ignoring the fact that their survival is one of the things that makes this story noteworthy in the first place). There is established precedent as noted above for posting such stories. There are issues are due to quality, but having any children, let a lone four, be lost in the Amazon for a month an a half is pretty damn noteworthy. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 16:55, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If the same situation happened in the US or Canada, we still wouldn't have posted it. When we talk the Western bias, it is if we posted a major commercial airline crash in the US and failed to report a comparable crash in Asia or elsewhere. Masem (t) 17:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support but the article needs to be improved. First of all, this story dominated the media in Colombia for a long time. It also made headlines internationally, the first time a few weeks ago when the president reported they were found, which turned out to be wrong. I remember seeing a few international articles with updates about the ongoing search, and now their actual rescue has been covered everywhere. Johndavies837 (talk) 17:28, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose because transport accidents with the same death toll happen every day. This one is unusual because of how long the survivors lasted before being rescued, but that doesn't make it ITN-worthy. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 08:52, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is being covered internationally & what makes it notable enough for ITN is that 4 children survived by themselves for 40 days. The death toll doesn't really matter in terms of whether or not this is blurb-worthy. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 08:32, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support: I've certainly been bombarded/beaten around the head across the airwaves by this news item. Also a pretty remarkable survival story by minors - on the order of the Thai cave ordeal, but with a less extraordinary relief/rescue effort. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:51, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose There are 4 uncited works in the Selected works section. Please fix this. All issues have now been fixed. Support. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800023:51, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Given his infobox shows a lot of different stints managing, the section of his article on his managerial career is woefully short. DarkSide830 (talk) 23:36, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The target article doesn't mention "association football", and it's barely there on either of the two team pages (certainly not in relation to the sport played. Why not simply take "association" out of the blurb, as per WP:COMMONNAME. Nfitz (talk) 06:08, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Because in several countries, including mine, "football" means something entirely different from the sport under discussion here. Why create ambiguity when we can avoid it? HiLo48 (talk) 06:12, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is an international project. There are multiple codes of football that are popular in certain areas of the world, so disambiguation is the best way; it's how we've run for years and years without issue. SounderBruce09:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose No-one writes pompous stuff like "In association football" and we shouldn't make readers struggle to parse this clumsy phrase. To make it brief and clear, just say "In sport..." That enables readers who are not interested in sports results to tune out quickly. That's why most newspapers put sport at the back or in a separate section. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:01, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Soccer" is simpler, accurate, and unambiguous. But it will upset those who don't know that it was the common name for the sport in the UK until 50 years ago. The real alternative here is probably to not even mention the sport at all. HiLo48 (talk) 09:44, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It’s irrelevant what was the common name 50 years ago when none of the British media used it in their news articles on this final (to be more precise, ‘soccer’ was used in the UK alongside ‘football’ until the late 1980s, which is even more recently, but it’s simply not true that it was the more popular name).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:14, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say "more popular". I also know that, for reasons I don't understand, current fans hate the word. Hence my suggestion to avoid naming the sport at all. Do we name the sport in Superbowl ITN entries? HiLo48 (talk) 11:46, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Soccer" is dated slang like "rugger" and "wagger pagger bagger". It works for me as I had a bedder in my day too. But the more common abbreviation around here is "footy", isn't it? Anyway, "sport" is best for the general reader who won't care about or understand these fine distinctions. Andrew🐉(talk) 11:51, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? We have consistently used that terminology (see any ITN blurb for "association football" titles) and the terminology is used all over enwiki. Need not raise non-issues. Gotitbro (talk) 16:29, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb This does need a blurb because his name is not as memorable as the Unabomber alias. And the article is FA quality and so it's a good opportunity to showcase a quality topic which is in the news. Andrew🐉(talk) 17:18, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb Quality article, person who has gotten sustained coverage throughout the years, unexpected death. Clearly beyond a mere crinimal. A good candidate for a blurb. Gotitbro (talk) 17:30, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
support blurb: whatever you think of him, he's the greatest and probably the most influential philosopher of the past 50 years. RIP Daikido (talk) 17:41, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, oppose blurb. For all the "fame" he has in the US, I don't feel he's super well-known abroad. His death hasn't made it to major European news media yet, and, sadly, I'm afraid other terrorists since have surpassed him in the amount of horror they were able to generate. Khuft (talk) 18:15, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, fair enough - it's trickling in now. I was tracking German & French language media when I posted it. I still oppose the blurb though.
Actually, even within the realm of "domestic US terrorists", he's not "outstanding" - Timothy McVeigh's awful carnage in Oklahoma City was certainly worse. Lastly, should we really "honour" a terrorist who died peacefully in prison with a blurb? Khuft (talk) 18:22, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Blurbs are not an honour though. My support here is based primarily on article quality and the individual's impact (especially of the manifesto) regardless of his status as a terrorist. Gotitbro (talk) 18:35, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see having one's death being posted to ITN as a particular honor, as if it is something we should reserve only for the morally upright and righteous, or for people who otherwise made positive contributions to society. McVeigh's carnage in Oklahoma City was worse in terms of the carnage caused, but I also don't think that's a particularly good form of argument for exclusion; Osama bin Laden certainly caused more carnage than McVeigh, but I don't think that we need a terrorist to be Osama-level to make it to ITN with a death blurb—both could be important enough to place on ITN. Likewise, merely because McVeigh caused more carnage than Kaczynski doesn't establish that Kaczynski is too small of a terrorist to arise to the level of his actions—and death—being particularly notable and well-covered across the globe. — Red-tailed hawk(nest)18:41, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but I don't get it then. Why are we supposed to blurb Kaczinsky? What is his claim to fame that distinguishes him from all the other terrorists? If we post him, will we post all kinds of other terrorists in the future too? Khuft (talk) 18:48, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
He was definitely one of the most prolific terrorists of the late 20th century, at least in the west. He was a household name and was very much emblematic of the growing anti-modernity movement that we see today. I'd say that's better than posting Abdul #1000 of Baghdad, Whitesaviorskinhead1488-1350, or left-wing emoji spam 1600 UWU who have some global notoriety, but are ultimately just one of many deranged ideologue who bomb a place one time and gets tossed in the penitentiary. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 02:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Those namecalls are highly offensive, especially the former, please strike them. ITN is not a highly formal discussion board but usage of such offensive slangs should not be done. Gotitbro (talk) 04:48, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, oppose blurb — Obviously passes RD, does not pass blurb. Prudence suggests we shouldn't have three U.S.-centric blurbs on ITN lest we let it become "In American News". elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)18:25, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not our fault that the U.S tends to be more newsworthy than most countries (its to be expected given her size and influence on the world). If the US had a 9/11 esque terrorist attack, a presidential election, annexed Canada, declared war on China, and had a major outbreak of the plague in a week while nothing happened in the rest of the world, would we not post, because "we're being to US-centric?" - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 02:09, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb, support RD. Blurbing the natural death of a long-imprisoned, octogenarian, domesticlone wolf who had a low death toll?! Blurbing an influential leader of a VNSA group (such as Velupillai Prabhakaran, Osama bin Laden & perhaps Charles Manson) is justified, but this discussion is the most startling one I've seen since those which included the insistence that Barbara Walters is one of the most important people in the history of the world! How was TK transformative? If we're blurbing people for being prolific/unusual/highly-publicised in their particular type of crime, we'll be doing so many times. We wouldn't blurb a similar criminal of any other country. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 18:39, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Kaz is in a different league than other criminals. He terrorized the US from the 70s to 90s, acts which received national and even a bit of international coverage in his time and also had a somewhat influential ideology. Also, I would support blurbing TK-esque figures in other countries as well. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 02:11, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
An equivalent in any other country would be unlikely to be nominated. If he were, the discussion would be much shorter & there'd be no chance of a consensus to post. Any influence TK might have is small & domestic. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 15:13, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blub - The mystery of the Unabomber was a huge news topic back in the day, garnering massive attention. He also has an interesting legacy, especially for a domestic terrorist. Fruitbat110 (talk) 18:42, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb per above. Household name, global coverage, and it's a FA which clinches it for me. I think the blurb should mention the "Unabomber" alias. Davey2116 (talk) 18:56, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's quite amusing. Practically no-one outside the US knows who he is, and I wouldn't mind betting that a significant number of Americans under the age of 40 don't either. Black Kite (talk)19:25, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm Canadian, under 40, and I very much know who he is. But then again, my hobbies include looking through old New York Times articles for historical accounts of human rights abuses, so maybe I'm not a good representation of the average millennial. Kurtis(talk)00:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strongest oppose to blurb (Though RD is fine and ready to go). This is not a person considered greatest in the field, has no real legacy or impact, and the death at 82 while in prison is not surprising. RD blurbs should be based on showing respect for a great person's passing, not because they were a household name. --Masem (t) 19:04, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Meh I would probably oppose this other than the fact it would actually be good to get an FA onto the front page instead of the thrown-together NOTNEWS stuff that we usually have. Black Kite (talk)19:23, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Blurb - featured article, household name. I don't see any legitimate argument against posting, except that it will be a bit much to have three American blurbs on ITN, but it's not like this happens often. --RockstoneSend me a message!19:33, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Blurb known more as Unabomber- than by name. Expect a few will recognize the sketch artist drawing of him - which in NOT in article for unknown reasons. also the FA status Wfoj3 (talk) 19:38, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, written as "Ted Kaczynski (Unabomber)". While consensus for a blurb may not materialize, I imagine that the name "Unabomber" will click more in some people's minds than his real name. I have no idea whether this formatting is considered acceptable, but if not, I think this is a case of WP:IAR and WP:PLA. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK)19:59, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD only, strongly oppose blurb I don't think Kaczynski is as transformative as he would have liked to think he was. Nothing about his death itself is extraordinary, either. rawmustard (talk) 20:03, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb. Not transformative, not top of the field. We did not blurb Harry Belafonte, William Hurt, Angela Lansbury, Gina Lollobrigida, Vivienne Westwood, Barbara Walters, Vangelis, Irene Papas, Kirk Douglas, Ennio Morricone, DeHavilland, composer of sirtaki dance music, far wider known figures. Kirill C1 (talk) 20:04, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ted is unusually overrepresented now because of his very recent death. A Google search last month would've been very different. In all countries other than the US, Lech, a president, is far more well known than a lone wolf. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 21:45, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb. Just not up to that level. He was "active" from the late 70's to the mid 90's, and then ceased output. BD2412T21:09, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Posted RD, Blurb TBD - Since no one is actually opposing RD on quality grounds, I've gone ahead with postiing it as RD. Discussion can continue whether there's consensus to change that to a blurb. -- KTC (talk) 23:05, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment — The New York Times is now reporting that Kaczynski died by suicide. This is unlikely to change the nomination, but it may be a detail some editors are interested in, particularly those writing the blurb. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)01:38, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is what I factored in an unexpected death. Somewhat making it similar to the Epstein case (which I guess we did post). Gotitbro (talk) 05:10, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support - very much a household name across generations and he even had a sizable international presence in minds. Its receiving coverage from around the world and his critiques of industrial civilization have definately resonated with many across the world since, however repulsed they may be by the manner he executed his plans. Seems like much of the opposition is based on a idiosyncratic, rapidly changing standard for blurbs and especially RD blurbs, and tired anti-Americanism. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 02:00, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not often you see an editor openly admit to disregarding ITN's policies in favor of personal bias, but there's a first time for everything. The Kip (talk) 04:27, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
...Am I reading you right? You want to violate WP:NPOV by being explicitly anti-American? ...Why are you bothering to post here? Your goals in ITN are incompatible with its purpose. No one should take heed of anything you say here. -- RockstoneSend me a message!07:38, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Being a household name is not a reason to post an RD blurb. Too many of the support !votes here are weighing on that fact. Masem (t) 05:04, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Article quality (excellent) aside, we almost never blurb the deaths of criminals. Even fairly notorious ones. And fwiw, there are far more infamous villains than this guy. Obvious PP support for RD. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:58, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb RD is fine, but I think there is some ethics in glorifying terrorists and encouraging copycats. I seem to recall a posting at WP:ERRORS once about having a terrorist's picture displayed at the On this day section.—Bagumba (talk) 03:26, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that concern but is a blurb really going to do that. Is this really that different from the terrorist attacks we post? I guess a prominent display of the name does factor into it. If this gets blurbed at all, we should perhaps not post a picture. Gotitbro (talk) 05:10, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Trump hasn't been convicted of a crime. Please be really careful on walking this BLP line on talk pages. Masem (t) 13:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Tq: This isn't a current attack, which the blurb tends to put the focus on the losses, damage, and fallout, not solely on the perpetrator. At least you agree it can be ok to set limits, such as not posting his image on the MP. —Bagumba (talk) 07:32, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb Can't really make a better argument than what's already been said, massively influential on handling of terrorism in the USA and his manifesto continues to be notable. The Kip (talk) 04:07, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Stats Ted Kaczynski soared past Donald Trump and even cricket to go way out in front as the top read article yesterday. For those who think he's just an obscure figure from the past known only to the aged, the NYT explains:Template:Quote It seems that he now has a big following online and the University of Michigan maintains a popular archive of his radical correspondence and writing. Andrew🐉(talk) 06:41, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a metric we take in consideration. It wasn't even top story in The Guardian, top story there was BJ resigning and dragging his ilk with himself. This is in the news section, it is not even in the focus of frontlines of major world outlets. Kirill C1 (talk) 09:49, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Boris didn't do any better than the Donald. I fancy that our readers feel that they already know more than enough about those two. FYI, here were the top 10 people on Wikipedia yesterday. This shows just how much interest there was in the Unabomber. And kudos to the Leatherman for making it big in this company.
This is another strong argument not to post a blurb. If the article was the most viewed one yesterday, it means that our readers don't need to see a blurb in order to view it. Blurbs should promote notable news whose articles don't get high viewership figures.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:35, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb - the unabomber is known in all western countries by people that would be reading the front page. Surprising death circumstances and reported by worldwide media outlets. I strongly dislike the argument that ITN blurbs should be restricted to those we respect. Anarchyte (talk) 16:27, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm undecided as to whether I support a blurb or not (currently leaning support on notability), but if this does make it to the main page, I think the fact that these records were broken at the Meeting de Paris is an important detail that should be included. Kurtis(talk)16:22, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not there yet The blurb is close, which I support, as breaking world records are notable, but the blurb needs a bit in the workshop. Likely needs to include where it happened (Event location), and maybe some shrinking down of the blurb length. TheCorriynial (talk) 16:36, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Proposed & support alt blurb 2 The 2 new world records are both notable & it seems like there’s support for mentioning that it happened at the Meeting de Paris. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 21:00, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There’s a huge difference. Athletics is an individual sport, whereas basketball is a team sport. Despite the obvious difference, we should’ve made an exception to post it, so it was a mistake in my opinion.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 11:16, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Teams sports also have individual records though. How is an individual record in an individual sport inherently more notable for it to be a factor? —Bagumba (talk) 12:32, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose There are far too many different records in athletics to post someone breaking any one of them. Also, let's not mark our own noms ready after three votes. GreatCaesarsGhost18:53, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Reply World records in athletics have been posted quite frequently in the recent past (see this, this, this, this and this only in the last three years). Also, your criterion didn't prevent posting Joshua Cheptegei when he broke the 15-year-old world record in 5000 metres, but now it's a problem to post a new world record after 19 years. You need to better elaborate your vote because it doesn't make any sense.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:17, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why haven't you requested further elaboration from the three support votes, whose comments offer no rationale whatsoever? Could it be that they support the same side of the argument as you, when I oppose? Don't you think that makes this little sidebar uncivil and decidedly inappropriate? GreatCaesarsGhost20:59, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
In case when the articles are updated, the event is in the news and there's historical evidence that we do post world records in athletics, it's redundant to request any further elaboration from those supporting it. Do you have an actual argument to support your vote other than making digressions?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 21:10, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My argument, which is in my first comment, is that athletics has too many world records to consider them all significant per se. The best footballer, the best swimmer, and yes the best sprinter would be significant. But sprinting without obstacles, with one type of obstacles, sprinting with different obstacles, sprinting then jumping, sprinting then leaping, sprinting then leaping thrice, sprinting with friends; and all with records at various lengths. For all other sports, we have discussed and gained consensus around this very point: that a given sport should not be featured more than others because it is generous with the trophies. NOW, you may disagree with this argument, but that doesn't make the argument invalid. Others may disagree and the item gets posted. FINE. That's how things work here: everyone makes arguments trying to sway consensus. Unlike some people here, my sense of value is not tied to my personal preference "winning" the day. But what we don't do is attack anyone who disagrees with us. So kindly drop it. GreatCaesarsGhost14:24, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No-one says that every single world record in athletics is significant per se. There are many world records that are broken multiple times a year and we don't post them simply because they're not big achievements, but there are also world records that haven't been broken for decades and make strong cases for posting (in fact, that's what we post). I've clearly indicated in the nomination that the focus should be put on the improvement of the 19-year-old world record. And there's no personal attack here at all. I may dispute someone else's argumentation but never attack other editors personally. It's not my style.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 14:42, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you seriously consider anything that Kiril said in your brief exchange with him to be an "attack", then editing Wikipedia is going to be a very hostile experience for you. These kinds of disagreements are part and parcel of participating here. Kurtis(talk) 16:37, 12 June 2023
It is perfectly reasonable to counter another editors point. It is entirely inappropriate to selectively declare arguments in opposition to your position insufficient and demand elaboration whilst ignoring that votes aligning with ZERO rationale provided. This is uncivil behavior. Also, I have been here plenty long enough to recognize hostile behavior. GreatCaesarsGhost13:22, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Ping Kiril corrected an apparent misconception on your part; we don’t post every athletic record, just the ones that are rarely broken or particularly noteworthy in some form or fashion. He didn't ask the supporters why they support making this a blurb because their rationales are clear and reflect longstanding practice at ITN, whereas your oppose was based on the incorrect premise that we'd post any record being broken on the main page, when that just isn't the case. Kurtis(talk)00:18, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Ping If it was just 1 world record that was broken, I might agree w/you. However, 2 world records were broken at this competition. That & the previous precedent are why I think it's notable enough to post. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a problem with the argument that breaking two records is more significant than one, I just disagree that it elevates the event over the significance threshold. I would argue that two unrelated persons breaking two world records at one event only reinforces the notion that world records in athletics are broken frequently, not in the least because there are so many different records. GreatCaesarsGhost13:22, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I am a fan of athletics but I do not consider the breaking of world records (except perhaps the most prestigious such as the 100m) to be significant enough for an ITN blurb. I was opposed to the previous postings as well. Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:45, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Hardly significant in the general scheme of things. Also, the investigation and his role in it are barely mentioned in the article. --RFBailey (talk) 09:42, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - as a Canadian, this is significant - and is going to get very messy if the resignation leads to a public enquiry into the ongoing election tampering, blackmail, and bribery of the Chinese government in foreign elections - at least if the enquiry has subpoena powers over CSIS and CSE. But it's hardly in the news except locally. Or noteworthy beyond Canada. There needs to be a bigger step yet, like ambassadors being deported, China taking more hostages, the Canadian government falling, or a final committee report concluding and documenting Chinese crimes. Nfitz (talk) 16:45, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Big news in Canada but not to the level of an ITN blurb. Perhaps when the final report, whether from a public inquiry or not, into foreign interference is released, that could be blurbed. Anything before that is unlikely to meet the bar. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions00:17, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Good faith nom. A blip in an ongoing investigation that might lead to a public scandal. But it's relatively pedestrian by ITN standards. And yes, I do realize that it's getting a little harder to make those kinds of arguments when ITN, rather lamentably, appears to be turning into the Trump News Ticker. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:23, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment He had a very interesting career, but his article seems too short. I'm sure it can be expanded without a problem. _-_Alsor (talk) 10:23, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose due to the article being too short, although it's notable enough to be posted. The article doesn't mention it being a suicide bombing; if that's the case, it should do. Jim Michael 2 (talk) 08:10, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose—A horrific tragedy with 11 people dead, but unfortunately, terrorist incidents of this nature are very common in Afghanistan. We've had attacks with even higher death tolls that didn't get blurbed (e.g. the Aybak bombing last November). Kurtis(talk)19:19, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support Article's sourcing is fine, but I would love to see some expansion, though it isn't bad enough to be limited from being on ITNRD. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800016:35, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. We can not and should not cover every darn piece of Trump news. We posted the NY one. Yes maybe it's the first "federal" indictment, but it's already not the first indictment in general. DarkSide830 (talk) 00:59, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is hardly "every piece of Trump news". It's not our fault that he breaks every historical record there is. This is more notable than his New York indictment as it involves actions related to his presidency. 331dot (talk) 01:03, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ex-fucking-actly. If Trump landed on Venus or was revealed to have raped hundreds of thousands of kittens and given them STDs, would we also not post because "we're not a Trump-ticker." Funnily enough, this is reminiscent of the prior indictment, where people were not only complaining about covering Trump news, but were complaining about having his face on the main page. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 02:18, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support—Regardless of ITN convention, an indictment of a former US president on federal charges is an unprecedented event. Kurtis(talk)01:07, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I notice the people who oppose this generally oppose all news coming from the US. I get that it's tiring to see the US in ITN all the time but... this is enwiki, and the US is the largest country where English is the dominate language. -- RockstoneSend me a message!01:13, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have nothing against US-based news. I simply disagree with this being an ITN item because it's a higher level indictment. What would clearly warrant ITN attention is a guilty verdict and/or sentencing. You can disagree if you want, but I believe the whole idea that something merits ITN posting because it hasn't happened before doesn't make sense. Superlatives are DYK's department. DarkSide830 (talk) 01:17, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How about posting it to ITN because it's substantially updated, reflecting current events, and is of wide interest? That's all we should be weighing. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:19, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
When everybody starts weighing items by their own criteria that others don't use, that's what makes ITN/C a clusterfuck. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:05, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Because then we would be flooded with US and UK political and celebrity news. We must include a filter related to systematic media bias to a degree so that we don't make ITN only what happened in the US or UK Masem (t) 02:07, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, English is only spoken in the United States and enwiki is only attended by users from the United States. Great point, which I did not expect. _-_Alsor (talk) 05:50, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support for the same reason we posted the state level charges. This is historic. ITN looks silly not posting this, as it's now the biggest news story in the world at the moment. -- RockstoneSend me a message!01:09, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support; pace DarkSide830, I think the federal nature is different enough to post this one, but I think the bar for Trump/crime news in the future should be putting the federal trial in ongoing (as it will be front page news in most of the world for weeks) when it comes to it and posting the result (either way) of both trials at the end. Sceptre (talk) 01:09, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support This indictment is the big one (federal special counsel and all) and is the most substantive and consequential of any of the Trump legal woes (per reliable sources). For the record, we probably shouldn't have posted the NY one in hindsight, but I don't see why that should reflect here. Curbon7 (talk) 01:12, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why not? It was an article with a substantial update reflecting a current event of wide interest, exactly the stated purpose of ITN. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:15, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As someone who did !vote in support then, in hindsight it feels more flashy than substantive. I just try to be consistent with my rationales. Regardless, that has no bearing here. Curbon7 (talk) 01:28, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'm under no illusions about the likelihood of stopping this. But we are not the Trump News Ticker and we already posted his previous indictment. If he is convicted of a felony crime I will type a quick support in between sips of champagne. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:35, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Obvious support I'd love for the guy to not be in the news, much less In the News, but this is the lead story on every English-language site, all over the world. It's unquestionably the biggest news happening now, and barring a surprise, will continue to be for the near future. The article is in good shape and could be posted right now with little concern, and the oppose !votes are pretty much ignoring the point of ITN, which is featuring well-written articles that are of news value, which this one certainly is. -- Kicking222 (talk) 01:38, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait until charges are actually announced and the article is updated accordingly, then support. At that point, this will be an updated article of reasonable quality about a major topic that's "in the news". With that said, I wouldn't strongly object if it was posted sooner. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:44, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
THIS. All we have is Trump's claim via his social media account, and "according to sources close to" from RSes. We should not be posting anything like this until the published charges are released. Masem (t) 01:53, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Adding additional article which is actually about the incitement. Clear support - biggest news story in the world rn that is definitely attracting reader interest. Opposing because it came from the US or came from the dreaded Orange man is a dopey !vote, especially considering the coverage its receiving from foreign outlets. Also, all WP:RS sources state that he's been indicted, so we shouldn't be creating arbitrary finish lines for "is he actually indicted or not" that wound up in us posting this when its no longer In The News. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 02:10, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Dear Knight, however invested You may be in ITN, this is definitely not the biggest news story in the world rn. I guess I just come from a different perspective, but as I see it, this is US politics, and it's an indictment, fine, it's groundbreaking in that it's a former president, but the acts behind the case have already happened. Nothing changes that. Meanwhile, events are unfolding of a grander scale, right now, actually, physically. The piece at hand affects just one single person or perhaps a minor group. Hence oppose on account of this being blown out of proportion. --Ouro (blah blah) 04:51, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Alsor's opinion is going to be swayed no matter how much evidence is provided. I suspect they are thinking about Ukraine? I'm not sure why they have to be so hostile, honestly. -- RockstoneSend me a message!07:30, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Not this time. I supported posting his first indictment, because it really was a first, in every way. This time it's a conviction that would justify it being posted at ITN. HiLo48 (talk) 04:46, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose… It is still not understood that indictment is not condemnation. I no longer know how it should be explained. If you want to turn Wikipedia into Trumppedia, go ahead, but it's all nonsense. _-_Alsor (talk) 05:48, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Who is claiming that an indictment is the same as a conviction? Not us. We don't generally post indictments or arrests out of concern for the accused's privacy, but this is the biggest news story in the world, and the accused is the exact opposite of a private person. -- RockstoneSend me a message!06:17, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
“biggest news story in the world” if you only use U.S. media. Very sure there is an European county that will disagree with you. For God's sake... _-_Alsor (talk) 06:40, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just because someone says something you don't agree with doesn't mean they are "toxic" or that they are being a "jerk". I think we are old enough not to be offended by trifles or behemoths. _-_Alsor (talk) 12:35, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Saying "for God's sake" because someone said something you don't like, and being generally a sarcastic asshole is actually being toxic. We already had one long-time contributor to ITN who was banned from here for this behavior. -- RockstoneSend me a message!14:41, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if I should understand what you say as a threat. I will try not to. And calling me "asshole" is not the most non-toxic thing you could say to me. Do not make your subjectivity a rule, btw. _-_Alsor (talk) 14:47, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is what I feared would lead to when indictments of Putin and Trump were posted. Posting of mere charges to the main page is a clear disregard of BLP. Gotitbro (talk) 06:18, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But it's factually true that he was charged. I respect WP:BLP, but I dislike BLP extremism, especially in the legal department where it seems like now, merely stating factually that someone is under investigation or been charged is subject to contestation "because we're implying that they actually did it." If we actually went through it, folks like R Kelly and Bill Cosby would have had their respective controversies virtually void until the end of the trial (hell, Cosby's would still not be present since he got off on a technicality). Same applies for @Andrew Davidson's comment below. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 07:32, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing extreme in not wanting to see the posting of indictments which don't substantiate to anything, convictions do. Here we have the case of people nominating the posting of arrests, charges and every inconsequential stage in between of a legal proceeding. I would agree if this was Legalpedia but it is not, that is we had followed BLP in not posting anything below a conviction on the Main Page, until the Putin indictment posting put us in a situation we find here. Gotitbro (talk) 08:04, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:CRIME, "A living person accused of a crime is presumed not guilty unless and until the contrary is decided by a court of law." And the issue of mishandling documents seems rather petty and bureaucratic. Biden has exactly the same issue pending and presumably that's because these guys live in a blizzard of paper and so getting the filing done is a never-ending chore. Andrew🐉(talk) 07:18, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They're not the same issue at all. Biden (and hey, also Pence) immediately alerted the appropriate entities when he discovered improperly stored classified documents. Trump on the other hand refused to turn them over. -- RockstoneSend me a message!07:36, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We can certainly report that Trump has been formally accused of a crime or crimes. The news isn't waiting for Trump to be convicted to report this. I suggest that you review this matter more carefully. The Archives bent over backwards to give Trump every chance to comply with the law. Biden and Pence corrected themselves immediately upon discovery of the issue and cooperated. Pence has been determined to be in the clear. 331dot (talk) 08:29, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not "the news". The press has been full of the Prince Harry trial lately – front page coverage day after day. That's an actual court case and the news media love this stuff because of the celebrity drama and the suspense of the uncertain outcome. But we're an encyclopedia and should wait upon actual historical facts. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:48, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is "In the news". If we aren't going to post things that have improved articles about things "in the news"- this place should be wrapped up and replaced with a most-viewed ticker as you've previously suggested(I think). 331dot (talk) 09:03, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose since when did we start posting indictments instead of convictions? (And please don't say "since we posted the ICC issuing an arrest warrant for Putin"). Also, as far as I can tell, the previous Trump indictment was not posted either. Banedon (talk) 07:28, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is why I opposed the Putin indictment at the time knowing well that it would open floodgates for any kind of charge that maybe brought against persons of note. Multiple Trump cases are already active, wait for every minor charge, acquittal and conviction to be nominated here. Gotitbro (talk) 07:51, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not our fault or the news' fault that Trump engages in legally perilous activities(even if later determined not to be actionable). ITN should not discuss every legal problem Trump has, but the first indictment was notable because no former US president had ever been charged with a crime. This one is because no former US president had ever been charged with federal crimes. Georgia is investigating him for his Trump-Raffensperger phone call to attempt to influence the election, actions related to his presidency. 331dot (talk) 08:32, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And I am sure there would be a pointless Georgia indictment nom if that happens as well. Perfectly illustrating a Trump ticker point that has been raised here. We need to put the stop somewhere and that was at conviction only (complying with BLP) before we started frivolous charge postings this year. Gotitbro (talk) 10:00, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:CRIME but a conviction would merit posting even though he may self-pardon and not go to jail at all. I also don't buy the argument that we should post this because there's a precedent. Mistakes made in the past don't make a rule (Putin's arrest warrant should've not been posted.).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:32, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Respecfully, if it shouldn't be posted that a world leader(especially the first) is charged with war crimes by an international body, we might as well close this place up. I mean, then what are we doing here? 331dot (talk) 08:34, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No one is saying Trump is guilty; it is factually correct that he has been indicted(Trump himself is the one who announced it). 331dot (talk) 08:35, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We're an encyclopedia and should post only conclusions, which would happen when the conviction will be made, not other steps in the process (that's what news outlets should do).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:54, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - agree with the above, this will be suitable for posting if a conviction occurs, but not before per any other case. Besides, this is the second time he's been indicted for something in the space of a few months so it seems there might be a few of these in the offing. — Amakuru (talk) 08:55, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It never really has been though. If you want my meta opinion, we should definitely restyle ITN to be much more of a "news ticker" than it currently is. Hell, why not go the distance and actually have the content in ITN roll in some way using javascript, so we can fit more than five stories there at a time, and basically have carte blanche to post each and every headline story for which we have a quality article. That's what readers want, and that's what an ITN section ought to be about. But, and here's the big but, as long as we have this system where we filter the news with a fine-tooth comb, assessing it on encyclopedic significance, it's inevitable that a lot of stories fall by the wayside. And I personally do'nt think this particular story passes that threshold given the system we have in place currently. If we could get consensus for a new way of working at WT:ITN, then I'm all for it, but I suspect resistance will be strong unfortunately. — Amakuru (talk) 10:00, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support despite the Trump-like denials of reality (which should be given no weight) this story is in the news worldwide. For the entire history of the US this never happened before, the federal inditement of a former president for espionage. The alleged paying off of Stormy was small beans by comparison. JehochmanTalk09:41, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Trump-like denialist here. I didn't support the last ITN posting surrounding his indictment, nor do I support this one as I strongly believe that if he were acquitted the news around that would be firmly opposed here as "not news-worthy". He's already been indicted, that was already posted, why are we still here? I believe some of y'all should go check out the essays that tangentially relate to this matter. The Trump Horizon, WP:TRUMPNOT. Just to be clear, I'd firmly support a conviction of any notable politician but at this point the Overton window has clearly shifted and lawfare has reached the upper echelons of politics (about time). It's still non-notable (until there is a conviction) and it's not even verified at this point (aren't we still waiting on official announcement). WP:SIGNIFICANTKcmastrpc (talk) 11:17, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per HiLo48; we don't usually post indictments, so exceptional circumstances are needed. First time was exceptional, second is less so. Also the article is a PROSELINE nightmare. GreatCaesarsGhost12:17, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. While it is true that WP:BLPCRIME means we generally do not post indictments, current and former world leaders are completely different form the typical class of people protected by that policy as they occupy/have occupied positions that are both some of the most encyclopedically relevant and the furthest from private individuals that can possibly exist. While obviously not every charge will be posted to ITN, each should be assessed on its own merits. Here we have a recent leader of one of the United States, which has (until recently) never indicted former leaders, charged with something directly relevant to his presidency, and is of high interest to readers. ---- Patar knight - chat/contributions15:19, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'll admit that I phrased it a bit inelegantly, but yes, BLPCRIME applies to non-public figures since the part that presumes innocence until conviction applies to everyone. There's no issue with that here. However, the part of BLPCRIME suggesting that editors seriously consider not including information in articles is explicitly targeted at non-public figures. The spirit of that part of the policy has been behind decisions at ITN to generally not include mere indictments/charges of people unless they are/were world leaders (e.g. al-Bashir, Putin, Trump). -- Patar knight - chat/contributions00:15, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is breaking news on the front page of every news agency in big font. If this is not 'In The News', then what is? -Abhishikt (talk) 18:30, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - now that the indictment has been unsealed. And no, WP:BLPCRIME does not mean we dont post indictments, it means we dont presume somebody's guilt based on the indictment. But the indictment is front page news around the world, meets significance in spades. Id have opposed prior to the indictment being unsealed, as it was still conjecture that it would happen at that point, but here it is verifiably true that the US government is charging its former president and current Republican front-runner for that office with a number of felonies. That is highly notable, and the proof is in the coverage. nableezy - 19:35, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per the three comments direclty above me. Unsealed indictment, very obviously "in the news," and news of major domestic and international ramifications. ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)Talk to Me!20:12, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To help people out here, I read WP:CRIME for you and it says Template:Tq Which has zero relevance here; it's about whether someone not already a public figure with an article should get an article about them if they get in the news in connection with a criminal allegation. People are doing the thing where they link to a WP:TLA that they haven't read because the acronym sounds like something related so it must be a policy or guideline that supports my argument. 47.155.41.201 (talk) 21:09, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
They probably want to link to WP:BLPCRIME but the purpose of both of these is in the same spirit: not wanting to see articles clouded with criminal allegations unless proven in a court of law. Gotitbro (talk) 03:41, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Pretty much all of the news sources in the main article of this indictment say this is a hugely significant event. So, this event will have large implications, and is the headline of the vast majority of American newspapers, so it clearly should be placed in ITN.
Oppose Being in the headlines alone should not be enough to warrant inclusion. The last two times an indictment was posted should not had happened and we should not continue posting indictments. StellarHalo (talk) 23:08, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Edge3, and also it is important to note that, though yes we've seen a Trump indictment on ITN before, it is possible that he is only charged for one of the thus-far two incriminations, and so it would make sense to treat this as a different event altogether than the first indictment. daneellis11423:30, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean daneellis114, that he is only charged for one of the two incriminations. As far as I know, he's been charged dozens of times with each indictment. Nfitz (talk) 00:07, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm saying he could, in the future, be charged with only one court ruling, though it is also possible he is found guilty for both or neither. Daneellis114 (talk) 16:41, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support this is important, unprecedented (as a federal indictment), and above the virtual fold in news outlets around the world. That easily clears my bar for posting a blurb to—let's not forget—the in the news section. To the opposers, 1) so long as the blurb here is neutral, WP:BLPCRIME is a concern only for the article's content. 2) WP:CRIME ... doesn't apply to anything here? It's part of the notability policy? And Trump is obviously notable? Very confused. Ed[talk][majestic titan]03:24, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - it's embarrassing that this hasn't been posted yet, when this is the most "In The News" thing there is. It really should be, as consensus is in favor of posting, hence why I marked it as "Needs Attention". -- RockstoneSend me a message!03:33, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Don't really see much usefulness in labelling clearly contentious noms as such, labels as such are meant for where only content issues need be solved or there is a clear consensus but the nom fell down in the backlog. Gotitbro (talk) 03:51, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. ITN looks silly with trivial arguments like this. Let's stop calling it "In The News" if what's in the news can't get posted. Johndavies837 (talk) 05:29, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – The New York indictment was the first time a current or former U.S. president faced criminal charges. The first time a president has faced federal criminal charges is a comparitively small event. If Trump is convicted, sure, but as Trump's legal trouples progress, it is likely we will see more and more of these small 'firsts' – just because it's the "first of its kind" doesn't mean it should be posted to ITN, especially when its just an indictment and not a conviction, and a longstanding 'unwritten rule' of ITN is to post just convictions rather than arrests. DecafPotato (talk) 06:28, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand it's a significant event, and the other hand it's 50-year career criminal has another legal setback. There's a lot less coverage this time, and the coverage is dying off very fast --- Both Johnson and Johnston's resignation are now getting more attention here (and no, neither are ITN). We already are expecting Trump to be indicted and charged in Georgia for electoral fraud and racketeering in August. And he is also facing indictment federally for his part in the January 2021 insurrection. Are all of these going to be ITN? They guy can't even move without there being a lot of news coverage. With 4 different sets of charges, and multiple trials going, is this going to be ITN on a regular basis? Should this be Ongoing? Nfitz (talk) 07:12, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Stats This doesn't seem to have made a yuge impression with the readership. Here's stats for the nominated articles yesterday plus some others in the news. The Donald Trump article got some attention but was still only #35 and didn't beat Pat Robertson or Arnold Schwarzenegger. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:13, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support As noted by others above, I get the feeling that a lot of the opposes are just wielding bureaucratic reasons or WP policies (even some that don't apply here, as noted) to mask some "I don't like Trump" or "I don't like there to be too much US News items" biases. I'm not American, but I consider this to be a major news item, as do those European news channels that feature the indictment. To those not wanting ITN to be a "Trump ticker" - well, like it or not, he's at the source of unprecedented news. We can't just stick our heads in the sand and ignore it. Are we going to delete the "Russian invasion of Ukraine" from Ongoing because we don't want ITN to be a "Putin ticker" either? Khuft (talk) 08:44, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Cot
Any posting decision will spur debate about the fundamental goals of ITN. Therefore, it's useful to recap the criteria so we start from a common understanding of the written guidelines:
Furthermore, the listed WP:ITN#Purposes of ITN include (emphasis mine):
To help readers find and quickly access content they are likely to be searching for because an item is in the news.
To showcase quality Wikipedia content on current events.
To point readers to subjects they might not have been looking for but nonetheless may interest them.
To emphasize Wikipedia as a dynamic resource.
It is against this backdrop we evaluate the current blurb proposal. It is of primary importance to consider consensus in the area of Template:Xt to assist users to Template:Xt
Support opinions have stressed the historic significance: this is the first time in U.S. history a former president has been indicted on federal charges. An earlier April posting about Trump as the first-ever criminally indicted former U.S. president were New York state charges around financial issues relating to "hush money" payments. The charges involved in this case relate to classified information, national security, and the Espionage Act, which factors into the wider interest level and geo-political implications. Support sentiments have also pointed to the widespread news coverage worldwide, and that this is an "unprecedented" and "historic" event, which speaks to the first purpose of ITN listed above. There were also a number of observations of the form: "If this is not 'In The News', then what is?"
Oppose opinions have expressed concerns about posting every detail of Trump's legal proceedings, and whether this is proper for ITN. Opinions such as "we are not the Trump news ticker" were brought up. However, a series of blurbs that may be viewed by some as a "ticker" do not go against any of the stated ITN guidelines. In fact, the ITN charge to "emphasize Wikipedia as a dynamic resource" would be consistent with the idea of more frequent updates. Issues were raised about Wikipedia's policies about BLP and CRIME. However, a former U.S. president being a public figure is a significant factor here.
WP:CRIME cautions against, "A person who is known only in connection with a criminal event." That is not the case with a public figure such as a former U.S. president.
For BLP concerns that were raised, WP:BLPPUBLIC provides guidance, saying something deserves coverage if an "allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented." All of those are true here.
(To be clear, the two policies above are article-level policies. We are therefore adapting or projecting them somewhat imperfectly onto WP:ITN's topic selection and headline writing, but they are useful as our longstanding guiding principles.)
Some sentiments also mentioned that we don't post indictments. However, the custom of ITN has been that we have posted numerous indictments of significance, including the previous one of Trump in April. Until there is a guideline to outline this distinction, this is not a strong argument against the status quo. That this was "the second time he's been indicted for something" was pointed out by some to oppose posting. However, this sits in contrast with the goal of ITN to "reflect recent or current events of wide interest." As mentioned above, a state prosecutor's case regarding falsifying business records is significantly different than a 37-count federal indictment regarding the Espionage Act, DOJ, and the US National Archives. Therefore, oppose comments that characterize this as "just another indictment," "already been indicted," or comparable to the case with Biden/Pence's handling of documents don't sync well.
For completeness, there were some "wait" sentiments to not post because of incomplete information as initial reports were related from prominent news outlets, but not from the Department of Justice itself. However, after the DOJ unsealed the indictment and special counsel Jack Smith held a televised press conference detailing the significance of the charges, this appeared to resolve the issues of reliable sourcing and verifiable details.
It is for these reasons, and in the context of ITN's fundamental guidance, consensus does exist to post.
Template:Cob
Comment while I appreciate the lengthy rationale, AGAIN it is clearly a supervote. An admin is supposed to judge consensus, not judge the merits of the arguments. GreatCaesarsGhost10:55, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Balderdash. Absolute hokum. Significance is highly subjective. As long as arguments are supported by facts and in line with policy, the ultimate "vote" is based on personal opinion in weight of facts. He explicitly rejects arguments like mine that a second indictment is of diminished significance. That is not the role of an admin. GreatCaesarsGhost13:25, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Responding to the fact that Wikipedia consensus may not be informed by personal opinion with "Balderdash. Absolute hokum." is just about as perfect a description of ITN as we're going to get. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 15:30, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Using your framing of "as long as arguments are supported by facts and in line with policy", one could argue that second indictment !votes without something more should be disregarded or given lesser weight since they ignore the factual differences between the two indictments (i.e. federal vs. state, direct vs. indirect relation to presidency, mishandling nuclear secrets vs. falsifying business records) that would justify posting even if it is a second indictment. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions17:23, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again, balderdash. No one is writing a comment of support or opposition that balances arguments in both direction. An editor in support will provide rationale for & one in opposition will provided rationale against. Saying an opposition vote should be disregard because they didn't mention the arguments for is ludicrous. GreatCaesarsGhost19:06, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My brother in christ, that is not a consensus, that's a poll. You've danced around the affect that consensus on Wikipedia is measured via strength of arguments and not numerical superiority. For example, see this deletion request on Wikimedia Commons (which has similar consensus policy to Wikipedia). Under your logic, this license template should have been kept because all three voters voted keep, even though the public domain license New Jersey uses on its government works do not allow derivatives; despite that being a mandated requirement for all files hosted on Commons. This is why we don't measure consensus by headcount and actually analyze the weight and factuality of the points made. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 19:56, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand the "first" arguments by Fuzheado here, there will always be firsts; if he's indicted later in the year for electoral fraud that will also be a first. And if this indeed is more significant than the New York indictment then that should not have been posted (where this "first" argument was used as well), consequentially using that posting as a precedent falters. Furthermore, ITN's long standing history of not posting charges on the Main Page (in the spirit of BLP/casting asperions regardless of specific policies) should not be disregarded as easily.
You should not be surprised when in the future we are inundated with noms for trivial charges on celebrities/politicians et al. I have and would continue to oppose the posting of charges here on ITN. Gotitbro (talk) 11:42, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sad future. But I’m happy to know that I will see the chaging of the former president/PM of the smallest and most irrelevant country in the world in Main Page and with a majority support over here. I’m sure it will be "in the news". _-_Alsor (talk) 12:15, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
as much you’d like to pretend that all circumstances and events are equivalent, what’s in the news is decided by the news media, not random people on the internet at a Wikipedia discussion page. nableezy - 13:11, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pull. Shall we just say I guessed who had posted this before I opened the page? There is no consensus to post this whatsoever and it's a supervote. Black Kite (talk)13:38, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't you engage with the admin's very detailed explanation, instead of blankly accusing him of "supervoting"? Yes, full disclosure, I did support this, but besides that I think his arguments of why he weighed some arguments higher than others make a lot of sense. Consensus is not a vote-count. Khuft (talk) 18:03, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Because most of his arguments are wrong. I can't really be bothered any more though, the last ANI made it clear that we are going to let this admin keep making mistakes at ITN without any consequence. Black Kite (talk)19:10, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Any elaboration on why this admin is wrong? Any input is appreciated and saying that "you can't be bothered" doesn't back up your case. CaptainGalaxy10:50, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I personally support posting, as three days later I'm still finding this on the front page of non-US news sources. However, I don't see how there is presently consensus for posting. So I genuinely don't know where to go from here, but pulling would not be an unreasonable thing to do. Vanamonde (Talk)21:35, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting comment Wouldn't it be better to move this and all the lawsuits Trump is racking up, to an ongoing item? This is not the first and I guess it won't be the last in this mess. Just brainstorming out loud... cart-Talk21:45, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If Russia were to fire a missile at any other city outside of Ukraine it would be notable and ITN. But it's a daily and notable event that's covered by ongoing. We already know that the Georgia indictment is scheduled for August on the racketeering and electoral fraud charges. We also know that there were be more big coverage when trials begin. Ongoing sounds like the place to me. Nfitz (talk) 18:48, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Then nominate it then. I may not think it worthy for nomination but if either of you or anyone here for that matter think so, then be bold. CaptainGalaxy15:45, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pull. The closer brought up arguments that were not made by anyone else in the discussion, a classic sign of a supervote. (For example, the closing statement twice mentions the importance of the Espionage Act, which is not mentioned anywhere else in the discussion, and quotes WP:BLPPUBLIC, which was not cited elsewhere in the discussion as far as I can tell.) —Mx. Granger (talk·contribs) 05:13, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Xt was posted by Template:U, which sparked different discussions including WP:CRIME and WP:BLPCRIME. WP:BLPPUBLIC being part of WP:BLP was brought up to riterate that the BLP policy, brought up by the opposer, also factors in whether subjects are public figures. The bringing up the of Espionage Act (with "espionage" also raised by Template:U) was to explain why arguments that "the second time he's been indicted for something," "just another indictment," "already been indicted," were an incomplete analysis of the situation. These points are not an attempt at a supervote. - Fuzheado | Talk14:48, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well I guess a Djokivic winning the most grand slams ever is more notable than some random news about Trump. That Trump is notable enough is your personal POV. Try to reason like this overturn the opposes at the French open and post it because it is in the news. Wikipedia is aiming for an Encyclopedia, not a populist news ticker. Also only regionally notable events are ITN worthy not only the ones in the news. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 04:26, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand this comment. Each ITN item is considered independently on its own merits. The issue with the French Open posting was that the article lacked sufficient prose and fell short on quality. It was not an issue of notability, as it was already on ITN/R. - Fuzheado | Talk10:01, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I understand, you valued the ITN part more than notability. We know now that there is an admin who also posts indictments. Its ok, I'll nominate when the time comes to make the point, but won't be disappointed if it is not posted. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:14, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I agree it was a super-vote. But it was borderline notable. Little point removing it now. But when the Georgia electoral inteference/racketeering one drops in August, I think that's the limit. And pretty much any other legal issue short of murder or another rape. Nfitz (talk) 23:36, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support This article looked terrible when I saw it earlier today. You did an impressive job of fixing it, and in way less time than I thought it would need. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:10, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The start of an El Nino or even the event itself is not notable for inclusion here... the effects that El Nino brings likely will get many blurbs and may warrant an article later on. Sorry, but this reeks of WP:TOOSOON since the El Nino is literally in its infancy. I'd also argue this is very US-centric considering other agencies such as Australia's BOM and the JMA have not declared El Nino. NoahTalk19:57, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you look, that’s only a 70% chance of El Niño. If they are at El Niño they simply state El Niño without any watch or alert. NoahTalk14:30, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support notable item that is in the news, and features a topic that people would want to know more about; exactly what we ought to be featuring on ITN. NorthernFalcon (talk) 20:19, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It is the effects of a El Nino that are newsworthy. We could have a El Nino event without any significant events. But like in this case the Canadian wildfires are the first big result of this. --Masem (t) 20:30, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. Quoting the BBC article: "This is a very weak signal. But we believe that we're starting to see these conditions and that they will continue to intensify," said Michelle L'Heureux, a scientist with NOAA. Even they are not strongly convinced, why should we be? If stronger signs are seen, we can come back to this in a while with an indication in the blurb of the likely impact for 2024. --Ouro (blah blah) 03:21, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It is obviously a routine climatological event. We are not going to include the start of tornado season in the USA or forest fires in the Mediterranean area. By the way, don't forget the "ñ", which may not be a pretty letter, but it's not hideous. _-_Alsor (talk) 05:54, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Expected climate process continues to operate. If this leads to extreme weather events, we can consider posting those, but not a routine oscillation. Modest Geniustalk12:10, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Updates to article do not appear substantial enough for Ongoing. The better portion of substantial editing recently seems to be more edit-warring. DarkSide830 (talk) 18:45, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not nominated by me - hence I marked my comment as a comment. I was throwing together an article on it independently, and I checked to see if it was already here, so added a message to the actual nominator Frzzltalk · contribs18:36, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, apologies for the confusion. This is my first time interacting at ITN and I've misunderstood how the nomination system works. I saw it mentioned in the box above so thought that meant another editor had somehow nominated, and thus gave my first comment to alert that I've made an article. I have no preference on whether it appears, and didn't intend to nominate it! If it passes WP:NEVENTS, I'm happy to !support, but I agree that we wait first. Frzzltalk · contribs18:44, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait - no fatalities yet at least, wait until anyone dies. They also seems to making a big deal about this in France, which might barely make the article pass WP:NEVENTS even if no one dies, but alas, that's getting ahead of ourselves. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 18:39, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That appears to be a domestic incident (homeless refuge) and not what we post st ITN. It also might fail NEVENT as such a small scale incident. Masem (t) 17:11, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, hence my comment. However, it has attracted widespread international media coverage, so I think it passes notability. If not, we can discuss deletion and merging into Annecy. Frzzltalk · contribs18:38, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest close without prejudice there isn't even clearly a nominator suggesting significance sufficient to support promotion. We can renominate if circumstances evolve to give this a snowball's chance. GreatCaesarsGhost18:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Would Pat Robertson qualify for a blurb? I'm thinking he's probably just an RD, but I'd like to hear what others have to say on the matter. He was one of the most influential televangelists and had a pretty major impact on the world, for better or for worse. Kurtis(talk)14:07, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say he was a borderline candidate for a blurb (if/when the referencing issues are corrected). During his career Robertson was certainly very influential in American culture and politics and his views made him a highly controversial figure. But he has been retired/inactive for many years, his influence and name recognition would be almost entirely American, and his death at 93 is not exactly remarkable. Further, we have declined blurb nominations for figures with much stronger claims to fame and influence. Kirk Douglas and Olivia de Havilland come to mind. You are free to modify the nomination and add a proposed blurb, but I doubt it would succeed. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:18, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb besides article quality, only the lefe makes some claim of long term impact (that i could spot), and such an impact must be more apparent and discussed in depth. I also feel the bottom half of the controversies section is most a laundry list of every controversial comment, rather than a big picture look, making that sevtion an POV issue. (This is why we avoid controversy sections) perhaps a section of his views would be better. --Masem (t) 14:46, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Adding blurb per discussion. I myself am neutral, but leaning towards support - Robertson was undoubtedly a major political figure in contemporary American history, being instrumental in the popularization of the evangelical right and being critical figure in that movement's conquest of the party, however, I'm not entirely sure that would warrant blurbing considering that he was aided by a lot of folk in his ilk (i.e, he wasn't the only one). - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 18:20, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Man dies at 93, was irrelevant to most of the world and indeed, frankly, to a significant part of the USA. As AD Orientem says, we have declined blurbs for far more influential characters than Robertson. Black Kite (talk)18:24, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb - failed presidential candidate is way too wide a net to blurb. Sure, had an impact on a portion of a portion of the political map, but no not blurb-worthy absent an unusually newsworthy death. nableezy - 18:50, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose RD and as an evergreen comment: if you don't personally support a death blurb, don't be the first to raise the subject. It's just a distraction. There is no way in hell he is getting blurbed, but we're going to get 87 oppose blurb votes anyway. GreatCaesarsGhost19:03, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, I still think he was notable enough to at least have the possibility raised. I agree that we should probably refocus the conversation on whether or not his article is of a high enough quality to appear on the main page as an RD. Kurtis(talk)22:23, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking input from the community; statements like this that seek to shut down conversation do little more than needlessly intimidate and actually distract us from building consensus. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 07:48, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb - An Influential American political figure even if he lost most of his influence and power near the end of his life. Death Editor 2 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 23:05, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb as the subject is vital, the article is rated B-class (which is comparatively good for ITN) and the subject's name is quite commonplace and so would be invisible at RD. Andrew🐉(talk) 08:21, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb. Was this individual (whom I hadn't heard of before today) influential and significant on a par with Nelson Mandela or Margaret Thatcher? Of course he wasn't. Blurbs for deaths are rare, and should remain that way. — Amakuru (talk) 10:06, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not saying I disagree with you (I'm more or less on record supporting an RD as opposed to a blurb), but I've seen the "I've never heard of them" argument multiple times on ITN, and I always find it bewildering. I'll give you a shortlist of several famous people who I don't recall ever having heard of prior to their deaths, all of whom received a blurb: Billy Graham, Norman Borlaug, Karl Lagerfeld, Shane Warne, Dilip Kumar, Frederick Sanger, Maya Angelou, Jim Brown. Does the fact that I wasn't familiar with these people diminish their fame, notability, or significance? Of course not! I just... hadn't heard of them before, for whatever reason. Kurtis(talk)19:05, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurb. In the interest of serving our readers, we should highlight his recent passing. His prominence and influence evidenced by the fact his page was the 2nd most viewed yesterday. Kcmastrpc (talk) 14:54, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the publications section has a single quote which is prominently displayed hinting that he was anti-semitic but from the rest of the article you gather that he was actually a Zionist. Gotitbro (talk) 05:38, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb, Oppose RD for now There are eleven cn tags in the article. Once this gets fixed, it will be ready for RD. --Vacant0 (talk) 12:11, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Don't see any reason why RD is not sufficient. The publications section is still mostly unsourced, so I disagree that it is ready. Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:16, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD, leaning oppose blurb. Not particularly an innovator in any field, nor the leader in any field. He was very successful as a televangelist, but was neither the first nor the most prominent in this field. His political foray was novel, but shallow. BD2412T05:33, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Not another one??!!!!! All this blurb nomination shows is that we need better rules to justify blurbs. Either that, or separate ITNs. One for genuinely important people, the other for "famous" Americans that several of our editors have heard of. HiLo48 (talk) 05:40, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Going to second BD2412's comment as I'm not sure I could put it any better. Certainly a notable figure, but not uniquely notable enough in the grand scheme of things to merit a blurb. The Kip (talk) 05:41, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure I understand. India does not offer dual citizenship. He was a naturalized American and British national with overseas citizenship of India (by birth). Hence it says Indian-born American British executive. Does that help? You might have to read WP:ETHNICITY or WP:NATIONALITY right underneath. For additional reference please also see how the folks at Deaths in 2023 have handled it. This is consistent with that as well. Ktin (talk) 03:30, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ktin: I was referring to why "Indian-born" was in the lead sentence, not to his nationalities. Understood that there's WP:OTHERSTUFF that mention it, but it's not supported in the MOS, short of the article explaining why it's significant for the subject. Anyways, I'll leave it to your discretion.—Bagumba (talk) —Bagumba (talk) 07:19, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Morgan695 Me along with some users have also announced the merge, we find that article unnecessary and putting it into the main article is better information and content wise. NYMan6 (talk) 20:20, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"By the night of June 6, New York City had the worst air pollution of any major city in the world; by the morning of June 7 it had fallen to second place." Wow, that is amazing. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:33, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose wildfires are common this time of year and this has yet to cause and deaths. Smoke from wildfires spread commonly across a wide area, and perhaps that this is a fire on the eastern side if the country may make it a curiosity, but it comes as part of wildfires in general. --Masem (t) 20:33, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The ultimate problem with this news item as it pertains to INT is that is relying on the "spectacle" of the wildfires, either from the standpoint if being the Xth largest fire in Canada, or that smoke from it affects the US eastern seaboard, or the NYC experienced its worst air quality from it. So what? With climate change we can anticipate these evens happening again and breaking records. This type of "wow, that's interesting" is great for a DYK blurb but not for ITN. Masem (t) 22:56, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support in principle due to its wide coverage but we should keep an eye on the multiple merges that are being discussed regarding this topic. Kafoxe (talk) 20:37, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support overall I've been looking widely into the wildfires which are the most popular in the world, it is not very common for smoke to stretch so far that it affects school, benefits and daily lives of people from far. I've also checked info overall, and find it very amazing on what it is written on especially the one that @Sagittarian Milky Way mentioned. New York City itself is being highly affected by the smoke and fires, where I live in CT we can literally smell the fire, also not to mention that this is the biggest wildfire in Canada's history literally almost 10 million acres long (4,046,856 hectares). Overall I support the claims of support above and this is my decision. NYMan6 (talk) 20:43, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
SUPPORT - New York and surrounding areas haven't seen this level of wildfire-induced smoke and whatnot since.. well, I'm not sure - hence my point. Alexcs114 :) 20:57, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The article has some issues. It says that the fires started in March and so the time frame seems quite protracted. And the article doesn't really explain what's happening. What exactly is causing these fires and why are they happening at this time? I thought this latitude was still affected by snow at this time. Rather than providing a good coherent explanation, the article seems scrappy and vague. Andrew🐉(talk) 21:03, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The first 2023 fire in all Canada was in March, the first in Quebec and/or Ontario [[2023 Central Canada wildfires|was June 2nd]]? Most of the smoke in the east US is from Ontario and Quebec. The cause of the Ontario and Quebec fires is unseasonably high temperature and dryness and lightning. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:03, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The article says nothing at all about lightning. The closest is comes to a cause is saying "Officials estimated about half of the province's wildfires were caused by human action."
And the article doesn't explain the nature of the terrain or the fires. Is this forest, prairie, scrub, tundra or what? Canada is a huge place and the article seems to cover many provinces. My impression is that the main phenomenon is a widespread dry spell or drought and so fires are a secondary consequence rather than being the primary topic. As North America has had drought on the west coast for some time and lots of wild fires there, this just seems to be more of the same.
2023 Central Canada wildfires says lightning, most of the East US smoke is from Quebec, not the west. There's wildfire in every province and territory except Nunavut and that Prince Edward Island, some wildfire in West Canada is prairie, there's forest fires almost coast-to-coast and almost USA to "the territories" AKA north of 60, I don't know about tundra. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:49, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
First, as to snow still in March at that latitude (varies sharply by longitude as well, but focused on mid-northern Ontario / Quebec) -- it's supposed to be. A lot of Canada had an extremely low-snow winter this year. Some places barely got any snow at all, places that normally have upward of two metres of snow. Second, technically not drought yet in central Canada, because of significant rain in April -- most farmers are not yet concerned -- but very very dry. Other parts of Canada are even drier. The Alberta and northern fires continue and are causing local air quality issues, but those are not the ones causing the current east coast smoke re this nomination. - Tenebris 66.11.165.101 (talk) 16:51, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the info but the article doesn't explain this and so its quality is still poor. I took another look to check after the posting. The first section is about Alberta and it tells us that their state of emergency ended 5 days ago. So, that's stale already. The rule seems to be that it doesn't matter how much of Canada is affected but if NYC gets a whiff then we stop the presses. Andrew🐉(talk) 17:19, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Damn!Strong support - as the one who initially nominated this story a few days ago, I stand by my original nom comment: this is an extraordinary and historic event that is rippling throughout Anglo-America (look at the smoke in NY for christ's sake, damn!). The article quality is not the best, but I'm not sure why people are acting like its any worse than some of the disaster stubs that we frequently post. The event has received sustained coverage as well. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 01:08, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The coverage is 100% from the systematic media bias of North American news sources. There's little else of interest on this side of the world, so "omg bad air quality in NYC!" is making headlines. Masem (t) 02:00, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Several of the sources used are international sources, as well. This wildfire could literally be reported across the world right now, not to mention the notability that I have seen of the event on social media. More than 100 million people in alert in the U.S with millions more in Canada and the events small smokes spreading to Europe and not to mention even evacuation and school closure. Seems enough. NYMan6 (talk) 02:14, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment for @Knightoftheswords281: It's not even bad tbh, it's literally a growing article, its better than several disaster stubs and other's this is an event current, information grows people don't understand. NYMan6 (talk) 02:08, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Currently front page news on most major news outlets globally. Its the lead story in Le Monde. Article quality is acceptable, and sourcing is actually decent. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:48, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
“Please do not… Oppose an item solely because the event is only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is generally unproductive.“ The Kip (talk) 04:49, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
all of the other current "in the news" stories are all centric to one country, this is a bit of a silly reason to oppose IMO. Alexcs114 :) 07:03, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The only time anyone ever argues that the story is only relevant to one country is when it involves the US, I'm really not sure why, but I wish comments that only have that argument would be struck out, as it's not a valid argument. Especially in this case... since it's relevant to two countries, not one. --RockstoneSend me a message!08:37, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per @Alexcs114 it's stupid that the opposition calls this centric, when in reality almost every article put onto it literally is centric to one country. NYMan6 (talk) 10:36, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support and not just because this has been my life for the last two days (I'm only so unfazed by it because, as I was telling people, I had seen and breathed much worse air on a visit to China in 2014, but then the AQI around where I live broke 200 today as New York City's broke 400, the latter equivalent to the day I was wandering around Beijing and visiting the Temple of Heaven (see photo)). To say that this shouldn't be on ITN because it will happen again due to climate change is not only a bit CRYSTAL but also discounts the significance of this being the first time this sort of natural disaster has happened in a well-populated, globally important region where this sort of thing has never happened in recorded history (save maybe this exception). To analogize it ... Houston having a 100ºF+ heatwave is not unusual enough to be ITN-worthy; London having one is (at this point in time). Likewise if 10 inches of wet snow falls in my neck of the woods, I wouldn't even think of nominating it for ITN, but you can bet that if that happened in Singapore I'd support the nomination.
And, by further analogy, should we not have put the Russian invasion of Ukraine in ITN because it could be considered likely that Russia will invade other neighboring countries in the future? Daniel Case (talk) 05:07, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
London had a heatwave of over 100ºF last year – see European heat wave & wildfires. I recorded a temperature of over 120ºF myself and I expect it will be similar this year. It's going to be a long hot summer all over because of El Niño and so we're going to have lots of weather stories. It's perhaps something for Ongoing. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:53, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose serious wildfires in Canada are not really unusual. Serious wildfires are not unusual anymore. And no victims have been reported. _-_Alsor (talk) 05:20, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The 1780 fires appear to have been in Central Canada; where fires are a more common then Eastern Canada, but not as much as Western Canada. The major Eastern Canada fires in New Brunswick are very unusual - I don't think I've even heard of anything like that before. Nfitz (talk) 23:23, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support on both quality and importance – this is the headline of many credible news organizations now (and isn't that the essence of ITN?). And this is not just US-centric as this obviously came from Canada; the effects in the US are more of a "side effect" of the ongoing wildfires in Canada, which is arguably the one that got hit more badly. I also think the 2023 United States East Coast wildfire smoke article should also be part of the blurb, unless it gets merged with the 2023 Canadian wildfires article itself. Vida0007 (talk) 06:35, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - It's pretty clear that this is a big deal and is being reported internationally. I fail to see any convincing argument as to why this shouldn't be posted. Most of the arguments against posting this seem to be the usual argument that this is only relevant to the US... but most stories we post are only relevant to one country (which is why ITN implores people to not use that as an argument), and besides that, this is actually relevant to two countries, as Canada is suffering even more than the US is. --RockstoneSend me a message!08:34, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Similar to the last nom, the kernel of the news story are the wildfires in Canada which editors clearly demonstrated, in the last nom, are not that uncommon. That the smoke of the fire affected nearby regions is a non-story. Gotitbro (talk) 10:04, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not our job to determine that, really - seems WP:OR. If it's in the news, it's in the news and we should note it as such. Alexcs114 :) 13:08, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If we followed the way all international media promotes stories with no other criteria in significance, we wold be flooded with US and UK politics and other Western centric stories. Which is we ITN is not a news ticker, we employ some degree of significance based on a topic being and enduring or impact fully, and not day to day curiosities the media sees. Masem (t) 13:13, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Wildfires are common and what makes this one unique is the air current carrying the smoke over a populated area, nothing more. With the smoke expected to clear in the next day or two I see don't much benefit covering this story for wiki readers. Kcmastrpc (talk) 10:54, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I'm kind of bewildered by the oppose !votes here. I think we look really silly right now. If we don't post this wildfire, which one are we going to post? A wildfire across the entire North American continent from coast-to-coast? --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)12:27, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously, we're missing the big picture through all the smoke. The real news story is the amount of damage the fires in Canada, which have been ongoing since March, measured in hectares as well as any damage they have done. The smoke is an unusual side effect, but it is absolutely temporary, and only a spectacle in the media because the eastern seaboard doesn't usually see wildfires and the effect of smoke. But right now the blurb is focused on this. I can tell you that people in the Pacific Northwest would scoff at the level of concern, given that they just had a similar issue with smoke and air quality from fires in B.C. This story is making a big deal out of nothing or actually burying the lede about the serious threat of the wildfires. And if we focused on the wildfires, they have been ongoing since March and thus would be considered stale. an ongoing line would not be appropriate as wildfires are happening all over the globe, and this is nowhere near how large they have been in the past. Masem (t) 12:33, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's a valid point, thus why I didn't rush to support this. Still, I'm nonetheless unimpressed by votes such as "U.S.-centric news story." when, as you pointed out, the main damage being done is in Canada. --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)13:01, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Because the lede ( Canada wildfires) is being buried by the spectacle (smoke along us eastern seaboard). We should be evaluating the lede story here, and in a grand scale of things, these are not any significant wildfires, yet, and part and parcel for this tome of year and other climate conditions. Masem (t) 13:16, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We have a very well established standard of posting "common event but uncommon for this location" like mass shootings, terrorism, natural disasters, etc. I thinks its a dumb practice and have voiced my opposition many times but been shouted down. It is unquestionably an unusual event enrapturing the capital of the world; we shouldn't dismiss that because people in Oregon are used to it. GreatCaesarsGhost13:07, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - multi-national impact, largest wildfires in Canadian history, worst air quality in North America's second largest city on record, and widely covered. Masem's long running crusade against the news media's supposed sensationalism aside (one that I thought was rejected in his straw poll?), this is clearly a widely covered news story with significant impact across a large region. nableezy - 13:07, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Any story which rests on "the largest.. " or "the worst..." or other superlatives, particularly when climate change is information, are ones that could easily be outdone in a year or even a few days. We look to long term impact here. And in relation to the straw poll, while newsworthiness is a factor, there is also still a significance factor to consider, which is this itnc debate right now. Masem (t) 13:21, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, any record can be broken later. That does not change their significance when they are broken now. The sourcing and the depth of coverage, and how wide that coverage is, here demonstrates the significance. If in the unlikely chance this fire gets put down and an even larger one appears in a few days Id support that too. But since that remains an absurdly unlikely hypothetical, how about we focus on this current event that is indeed the largest wildfire in Canada's history and causing significant impact in a very highly populated area? nableezy - 14:03, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not always true, i.e. it would've taken years and years for another plane model to beat the Airbus A380 as world's largest passenger plane and it was too big for existing airports to deal with, it's not something that can be designed, prototyped, tested, certificated, delivered and introduced into service in a year. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:33, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also even more so the longest total solar eclipse of the 21st century (2009) isn't something that could just be beat next year. They know all the eclipse lengths many centuries in advance. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:38, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Marked as Ready The discussion has been open a sufficient period of time and there appears to be a rough consensus in favor of posting. -Ad Orientem (talk) 13:45, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support—I previously opposed a blurb nomination for the wildfires taking place in Nova Scotia, believing that the situation was being resolved. However, the wildfires have continued to spread, and it has become a major news event. I believe it is now significant enough for the main page. Kurtis(talk)14:10, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Posted Solid article, of wide interest especially in the Northeastern U.S., opposition cites a lack of deaths and international scope which aren't appropriate arguments to me. – Muboshgu (talk) 14:42, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This was the right call, I think. Even if the original event is pretty well and truly stale, it meets all four forks of the DICE standard. There's no shortage of coverage of the wildfire in the news, the impact and consequences are massive in that hundreds of thousands of citizens -- if not millions -- are being impacted by the wildfire in some capacity, and the encyclopedic nature of it is indicated by the fact we're receiving multiple quality updates to the aforementioned articles. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)15:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support - Most certainly the right call, given the scope, scale, and significance of the wildfires and the opinions above. Fires of this type are not "common," with NYC currently one of the most polluted cities on Earth as a result and 100 million people in North America coping with the effects. - Fuzheado | Talk16:47, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting comment - @Fuzheado not even 100 million, the events are supposed to spread even more varying even the Gulf of Mexico and the West Coast of the U.S. There also seems that there's more comingfor both areas. NYMan6 (talk) 22:35, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Point of information - The 100 million figure is mentioned in multiple places:
Canada wildfire smoke updates: At least 100 million Americans affected by air quality alerts - (USA Today)
"For smoke alone, around 100 million were under alerts across 16 states." - (NBC News)
Massive Canada Wildfires Impact Over 100 Million People Across North America; All You Need To Know - (India Times)
100 million under Air Quality Alerts as Canadian wildfire smoke continues to choke eastern US - (FOX Weather)
"More than 100 million Americans are under Air Quality Index Alerts due to smoke drift from historic wildfire activity throughout Canada, which is facing one of its worst wildfire seasons on record. " - (WhiteHouse.gov)
Comment Re the comments about just affecting one (or two) countries. First, as previously noted, that reason for opposition is inherently not valid by ITN terms. Second, This story is newsworthy based on the population and/or the geographical area being affected. In N. America, that happens to involve two countries, both of which are exceptionally large (Canada 2nd in the world, U.S. 4th). This unusual layout tends to distort the real scale of the impact. Take the exact same issue and overlay it on Europe, S. America, Africa, or (non-Russia) Asia, and then consider how many countries it would have affected had the main body of N. America been laid out politically like other continents. (Wildfire smoke does not respect political boundaries.) - Tenebris 66.11.165.101 (talk) 17:34, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
yeah, like if Luxembourg and the Netherlands have a new trade agreement, it'd technically be international but at the same time not at all significant Alexcs114 :) 18:29, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Lynnwood Times is not a reliable source. Article needs quite a lot of work, which I'll try to patch up later today. SounderBruce23:31, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support I have fixed the two CN tags. Article looks good enough (good sourcing plus long enough to not be stubby) for ITNRD. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800022:15, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support, following the updates I've just made to the article in order to mention this key event. Template:Ping Let me know if these additions can help improve the page as a whole; also, here is one more potentially useful source, should you have time to add it. Oltrepier (talk) 19:14, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@ElijahPepe Completely categorically untrue! Do you want me to cite the numerous instances in which we have posted business news? I'd be more than happy to look them up for you. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)13:22, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sir, respectfully, you were the one who argued WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST. Your argument is incorrect on the basis that it does not reflect the current consensus of ITN. We have posted, and will continue to post, business mergers, collapses, and acquisitions of various sizes as recently as 2022. If you're going to oppose something for silly reasons, you better at least have a bloody good silly reason instead of making up false rationales. Otherwise you just come across as trolling. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)15:57, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The argument that you're making is that, because other business news has appeared on ITN, this article is somehow notable. If we considered every single merger that graced the cover of The New York Times, half of ITN would be nothing but business news. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him)16:08, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
At what point in the above exchange did I say "this event is notable because we've posted other business news before"? Please cite that statement or else tear down your straw man argument. Also, could another admin please hat this before one of us gets sent to ANI. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)16:16, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, that's not what is being said. It's much simpler. You said: Template:Xt. That is objectively incorrect, policy-wise and practice-wise. Might I suggest we chalk that up as your opinion, and agree to disagree. - Fuzheado | Talk16:18, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for right nowDP World Tour needs included, as they are part of the merger. However, something like this golf wise hasn't happened since the actual PGA Tour split from the PGA in the late 1960s. TheCorriynial (talk) 16:42, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Failed attempt to challenge the business structure of golf ends after 12 months. LIV never seriously challenged PGA and their merger simply returns things to the status quo of pre-2022. Modest Geniustalk16:54, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The PGA Tour did not have billions of Saudi dollars invested into it, so this is not "returning to the status quo". – Muboshgu (talk) 17:09, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But that type of investment wasn't possible with the PGA [41]. I'm unclear how this what-if scenario is useful for ITN determination. - Fuzheado | Talk17:12, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest this is the very opposite of failing to challenge PGA Tour. Liv was perceived as a realistic existential threat to the established order, and PGA & DP were doing what it could to prevent that from happening. If Liv truly failed, PGA & DP wouldn't have had to agree a merger, they would have just let it die. -- KTC (talk) 17:31, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
PGA had a dominant sporting competition, LIV had bucket loads of cash. Both sides wanted what the other had, and running two separate tours was damaging to both. Of course they were going to merge, the only surprise is it happened in just 12 months. Modest Geniustalk11:19, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is not borne out by the facts in the reporting. There was surprise the merger was happening at all because of the PGA's previous principled stance, and the "hypocrisy" of now doing a deal with LIV. [42][43][44][45] Therefore the time frame was not the only "surprise." - Fuzheado | Talk17:20, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As news about this has emerged, this observation seems incomplete. The reporting have made a bigger deal about this, both the straight news and opinion pieces, where the Saudi Public Investment Fund is at the heart of the issue. So this becomes not just a sport story, but a business and human rights story. Headlines include:
‘Gigantic victory for sportswashing’: old truths will haunt golf’s new dawn (Guardian UK)
LIV Golf-PGA Tour merger reignites not-so-clean debate over sportswashing (Washington Post)
PGA Tour sold out to LIV Golf and the Saudis. Pro golf will never be the same. - "From top to bottom, they own professional golf now." (USA Today)
With PGA-LIV merger, the sportswashing of Saudi Arabia's human rights record is in full swing (Deadspin)
Regardless of whether this is enough to change anyone's opinion here, a !vote that doesn't consider this dynamic affects the evaluation of consensus. - Fuzheado | Talk10:29, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am aware of the (justified) criticism of where the money has come from, however it was already being spent on golf. Whether that cash is going to an independent LIV or to a merged PGA-LIV won't make any material difference to human rights, in Saudia Arabia or elsewhere. Modest Geniustalk11:19, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Um, they're in their second season right now, not that it being too "short-lived" somehow makes this not notable. I don't want to WP:BLUDGEON this thread but accuracy matters. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:10, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose but not because of any of the reasons given above. I'm actually open to the ITN'ness of this. The issue I have is that the agreement is only at the stage of an initial board agreement and non-binding. There's still a lot that can cause the merger not to go ahead. While it is in the news now and may not be later, given the bad feelings with each other in the golf world, I'm not sure we should post something that have reasonable probability of not going ahead. -- KTC (talk) 17:28, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not trying to get you to change your mind, but this type of news story usually receives attention when it is announced, not when the documents are finalized, the regulators approve, or other formalities occur. Perhaps in this specific case there are reasons to doubt it will go ahead, but it more than likely will not get more attention than it does now. 331dot (talk) 19:49, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support (changed from neutral) now that the scope and significance have emerged. This is not just a "ho hum" or routine story, as it is a significant shift into the control of the only global franchise for the sport of golf, which is international, and massive in terms of dollar amount and influence. It is also a geopolitical story that merits posting on ITN, where both articles have seen a surge of traffic. [46]Neutral but open to support. Agree with Template:U that this is a signficant story in terms of sport and business, but also geopolitics, given the parties invovled. [47] Business news has always been and will always be suitable for ITN. However, as Template:U points out, posting "mergers" here is always tricky - do we post when it's announced, when it's official, when shareholders approve, or when it actually happens (given it's even possible to know it happened), etc? Concur with Template:U that any posting should include DP World tour/European PGA as part of it. – Fuzheado | Talk19:51, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. I would contend this is larger news then the individual results of any of the ITN golf items we have, and this is probably the biggest golf news in quite some time. DarkSide830 (talk) 22:33, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree with this assessment and also support. The media coverage is certainly there, and it was even the lead headline on NY Times for much of the day. Kicking222 (talk) 02:20, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. No doubt this is big news in golfing circles, but at the level of a global general encyclopedia, it's not significant enough for us to post. As Modest Genius points out, this was rather a flash-in-the-pan and the ultimate net effect of this is limited, Saudi dollars notwithstanding. It seems it will be back to business as usual. — Amakuru (talk) 07:58, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Certainly a topic fitting for a global encyclopedia. It's a big business merger that has a significant impact on the two aforementioned articles. --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)13:21, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Modest Genius. I agree that the machinations make for a salacious read, but this so-called "merger" is masquerading the ho-hum story of yet another startup sports league folding in under a year. GreatCaesarsGhost15:46, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is probably not going to get posted, but it should. It's a really major news story globally and it involves multiple subject areas, sports, business, and law. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:12, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It really should be. It's just a shame that the significance bar really is all over the place (and there's no option to fact-check !votes). If it's front page news in multiple papers and it results in significant updates to multiple Wikipedia articles, it ought to be newsworthy enough, I would think. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)15:56, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Walt has been here long enough to know that significance is in the eye of the beholder. You can certainly discount votes that make no real case or only invoke "banned" rationale, but implying others opinions are false is bad faith. GreatCaesarsGhost17:56, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really care if this is on ITN or not, but Walt has a point. MG's oppose rationale is fundamentally incorrect. It's not that he has the wrong opinion, but he's basing his opinion on an incorrect fact. It is simply, demonstrably untrue that this returns us to the status quo ante, and that is the full extent of his rationale. It doesn't make any sense to claim that pointing that out is uncivil or done in bad faith. There is actual incivility at ITNC all the time, it seems weird to claim that this is an example. Floquenbeam (talk) 20:13, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - widely covered sports and business news. See nothing in the opposes that trump the front page coverage. nableezy - 16:35, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Xt - the way ITN runs at the moment, front page coverage doesn't immediately imply we'd run it. The story is assessed on its encyclopedic significance in a global encyclopedia, rather than the things that would routinely appear on a "news ticker". Now I don't necessarily agree with that approach, I'd rather we post more news stories that readers want to find and for which we have decent articles, but we've yet to gather consensus for such a change at WT:ITN. And given the calibre of story we routinely don't post, I don't think this golfing one rises to any extent higher than those, and it would be wrong and systemically biased to post this. — Amakuru (talk) 17:18, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I know this is saying the quiet part out loud, but frankly, I feel "global significance" in practice is a cudgel used to beat down nominations that primarily concern U.S.-based news stories with moderate impacts; one never sees such argumentation used in context to events or disasters that occur in other nations. I don't think there's a consensus for that approach, except that some users incorrectly believe that it is a requirement for items to be posted on ITN. However, as things currently stand, there's probably no getting rid of its use in discourse. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)19:09, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Tq: That's somewhat akin to an WP:EVERYONEELSE argument, when there's little restriction currently as written at WP:ITN that precludes anyone from changing how we !vote now, nor anything mandating that admins post based on anything other than the arguments at a given nom. There is no time like the present. —Bagumba (talk) 19:54, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The entirety of the opposition is this is not important enough in my opinion, and in my view the fact that reliable sources across the world have taken this is as important enough to run on their front pages trumps those personal opinions, in my opinion obviously. nableezy - 19:58, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Posted Rough consensus to post. Some oppose !votes were discounted: it’s false that ITN don’t have business news. There’s a few WP:PERX !votes, citing Modest Genius, who was rebutted. A merger is not "status quo" with, at a minimum, Saudi money now involved. That it might be “ho hum” to some because LIV didn’t “succeed”, doesn’t erase that it is in the news and many more !voters find it significant. Finally, "Not suitable for ITN" doesn't explain why.—Bagumba (talk) 12:57, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Ping not sure how you're seeing a consensus to post here? Supports and opposes are almost equal, and it's certainly not right for you to "discount" people's opposes in this fashion, just because you disagree with them. ITN doesn't have policies or guidelines, so for better or worse it's up to individual contributors to decide whether the bar for posting is met, based on nebulous criteria. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 14:41, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This needs to be pulled. Major news organizations are reporting that this deal will likely not occur. By posting this, we are just working PR for the deal makers. Thriley (talk) 15:04, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Strength of argument is a factor in closes. Which specific rationale(s) in my explanation are you contesting? I understand the outcome is contrary to your !vote. For the record, your !vote was not one that I discounted. Regards. —Bagumba (talk) 15:40, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ironic that some of the same people who’ve previously argued raw vote totals aren’t everything and rationale is more important are now complaining that the vote totals “indicate no clear consensus.” As stated above, a good portion of the opposes on this are extremely poor rationale-wise. The Kip (talk) 19:19, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Posting was the proper call given the merit of the comments above. I was initially neutral but shifted to support. The news cycle has revealed the international significance of the deal, the shift in power dynamic, and the reactions of prominent sports figures regarding the sole global body overseeing competitive golf. It was not just prominent sports news but also international business news. How is ITN to be useful if we do not have the interest of our readers in mind? - Fuzheado | Talk19:08, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This needs to be pulled. This is an announcement, not an official merge yet. Many reputable sources are saying this deal will not be approved by regulators and therefore will not actually occur. Thriley (talk) 15:01, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn’t we be really reporting announcements of completed mergers? This deal will likely not be approved by regulators. Thriley (talk) 16:01, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is in the news now, and it has international ramifications, and people are interested in reading Wikipedia content related to this story. That is what ITN is for. - Fuzheado | Talk19:09, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pull Wikipedia isn't a PR firm, this deal was just announced, and not only that it's clear there was no consensus to post. This isn't a notable situation, deals get announced all the time and then they disappear when the regulators step in. Kcmastrpc (talk) 15:07, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, Wikipedia isn't a PR firm. It's also not a meteorologist, a disaster aid agency, a wartime correspondent, an election scrutineer, or a news ticker. But this isin the news, and we post items that arein the news. Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)17:34, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There was a clear consensus to post once the Opposes that clearly misunderstood the situation (and the Opposes that were "per them") were discounted. Black Kite (talk)18:19, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pull - I'm not seeing a consensus above. Nor am I seeing the notability - which is perhaps why there is no article about this merger! A business merger that has had very little coverage. I'd think that in terms of business deals, the Messi to Miami deal is far more significant, in the news, (and I wouldn't nominate either). Nfitz (talk) 21:40, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Someone could start an article about the merger if they were so inclined. But having its own article is not a requirement for ITN, nor is not having one a reason to pull. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:45, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My basis for pull was the lack of consensus, lack of notability, lack of coverage, and it being a standard transaction. Surely the Canadian Pacific/KCS merger was far more significant, and also not worthy of ITN. I'm not even seeing any discussion in PGA European Tour over a few words in the lead; there's a single paragraph that barely meets the ITNCRIT in the other two articles. Nfitz (talk) 22:00, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The PGA European Tour was not part of the original post. It was added by Template:U. I believe there was one comment in the discussion, but I didn't act on it, as I hadn't seen them as part of the headlines for this story. I also dont know enough about golf to verify if they were part of the litigation mentioned in the blurb.—Bagumba (talk) 02:04, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support: consensus is clearly evident for those who understand NOTAVOTE, and once you can get past the inevitable and all-purpose "ITN is not a news-ticker"-type arguments, there's nothing really against posting. This is easily the equivalent significance of any of the golf-related events on ITNR, so if those are posted, why not this? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:40, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Can someone please pull this asap. There is no consensus at all in favor and the poster jumped the gun. Including content on the main page without consensus is utterly unacceptable!Tvx1 10:02, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait -- I will Support this once this starts being discussed more broadly in the news. However, at this time, it has yet to have gotten sustained media attention (probably because the west is mostly asleep at this hour). --RockstoneSend me a message!04:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not covered by the ongoing article which has zero content about this. Even if the ongoing article had an update, it would be difficult to find as that article is so huge now. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:11, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support but wait pending the clear (likely impossible) indication of who did it. I agree with what Onegreatjoke said, this could potentially have significant impact. --Ouro (blah blah) 06:31, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support eventually once more details are known and the stub article mentioned above is expandable. Also, the blurb needs work, but no rush on that. ansh.66607:46, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The destruction of a major piece of civilian infrastruture would be a war crime if carried out by a party to the conflict(Russia had possession and was documented to have mined the facility, though I don't believe the perpetrator has been independently identified yet). Even if we don't want to get into that, its loss will have a major impact on hundreds of thousands of people(aside from Ukraine itself, it supplied water to Crimea, and threatens a nuclear power plant that uses its water) and this should be a no brainer. 331dot (talk) 08:55, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Consistency oppose - either we post notable developments in the war even if it's covered by ongoing, or we don't. Since we have historically chosen the latter, we should also not post this. Banedon (talk) 09:01, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
We posted both the Crimean bridge explosion, and the Russian annexation of Donetsk/Luhansk/Kherson/Zaporizhzhia, if I recall correctly. DecafPotato (talk) 16:32, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Ongoing exists for a reason, for the same similar destruction has not been posted before. A lot of significance is being put into its supposed impact on nuclear installations (WP:CRYSTALBALL), we can discuss if and when that actually happens. Gotitbro (talk) 10:08, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not crystal balling that there are and could be impacts to the NPP. The head of the IAEA has spoken about this extensively. 331dot (talk) 12:53, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. I think this has the potential to merit a separate blurb, but it's still too soon to determine what the impacts will be. By tomorrow we'll have a better idea of how widespread the flooding was, whether it compromises the nuclear power plant etc. The article is developing nicely but is still a first draft and there's no rush to post. Modest Geniustalk11:22, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait - This is of potentially extreme significance, but as indicated above, we won't know until the consequences of this disaster become more well known. --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)12:47, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait 24h - Per above, this is likely going to have significant ramifications but as of right now the downstream impact is occluded by the fog of war. Kcmastrpc (talk) 12:52, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support major escalatory act of war crime levels. We've posted the sinking of the Moskva and the Crimean bridge explosion. Eight communities have already been flooded and is likely to affect the water supply in Crimea and local habitats. The fact that this has already occurred is evidence that this is not crystalballing. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk·Contribs) 17:57, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think we need to amend the blurb to give a numerical estimate of how many people are affected; deaths or displacements. "Mass displacements" simply isn't convincing enough, we should have a number of people affected. Does such an estimate exist? QueensanditsCrazy (talk) 00:55, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I disagree with the current wording and I believe Russia should be explictly attributed for it. There are concerns of WP:FALSEBALANCE in the main article and I think the current situation contributes to this perception. SuperΨDro13:46, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait currently leaning oppose. Generally, I have opposed nominations related to the war as major events are covered in ongoing. But there is a chance this could turn into something really big. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:05, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. Full environmental impacts and humanitarian impacts are not fully known as of now, and precise information is still not readily available. 2G0o2De0l (talk) 16:11, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, covered by ongoing. ONly support if it becomes a larger humanitarian disaster, like it actually causes deaths. For now, it's crystal ball to me. QueensanditsCrazy (talk) 16:14, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Posted – given the high profile coverage by all the major news outlets and that this is an ecological [49] and humanitarian [50] disaster in itself, even outside the context of the Russia-Ukraine conflict. - Fuzheado | Talk19:08, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support I see where the thoughts around 'this is covered by ongoing' are coming from, but the dam breach appears to be an ongoing singular disaster of unusual scope that deserves a separate blurb. An estimated 40,000 people on both Ukrainian- and Russian-controlled land are in the flood zone, and 17,000 people are already being evacuated on the Ukrainian side. Ed[talk][majestic titan]19:23, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pull. I think it's way too early to have this item posted not knowing the full scope of impacts. To this point, all we know if is evacuations and speculative impacts, neither of which I'd argue merits ITN posting. DarkSide830 (talk) 22:39, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm inclined to post this, given the high profile coverage by all the major news outlets and that this is a disaster in itself, even outside the context of the Russia-Ukraine conflict. However, the current blurbs seem inadequate. Starting this section so we can help converge on a desirable wording. These are the current options:
blurb - The Nova Kakhovka dam has been blown up, releasing a large amount of water downstream.
Pull Besides being covered my ongoing, there haven't been any reported casualties, and I'm not sure there will be much lasting impact. I could also argue that there was no consensus to post in the first place. -- Kicking222 (talk) 23:14, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but I have to respond here. "No lasting impact"? Even if the war is over tomorrow, and somone start rebuilding the dam immediately, the ecological and humanitarian impact of what happened here is going to last years or decades. -- KTC (talk) 23:21, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you that there will undoubtedly be some lasting impact, and perhaps I should have included the word "broad", but the number of people displaced (note that I am in no way making light of the situation- losing your property in a flood sucks, having worse access to water sucks, war sucks) is nowhere near the level of some other elements of the war, nor of many natural disasters around the world yearly that don't make it onto ITN. Kicking222 (talk) 01:14, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
At the time of posting, and ignoring the one pointy oppose, there were more !votes for oppose or wait than there were for support, and since then, there has also been more opposition than support. That sure doesn't scream "consensus" to me. Kicking222 (talk) 01:10, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wait is an oppose vote. It literally means "should not be posted right now but may be suitable to be posted at another time" NoahTalk03:46, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also, seeing the posting admin assert "given the high profile coverage by all the major news outlets" as a reason to post. High volume of coverage is not a reason to post under ITN's guidelines. That coverage helped to generate a quality article in a short period of time (what we want to see at ITN), but standalone is not reason to post. Masem (t) 02:19, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, i posted this in the wrong place on the page. I think we need to amend the blurb to give a numerical estimate of how many people are affected; deaths or displacements. "Mass displacements" simply isn't convincing enough, we should have a number of people affected. Does such an estimate exist? QueensanditsCrazy (talk) 00:56, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Amend the blurb to add the number 17k (number of evacuees in Ukraine), its cited in the article. Do we have a number of evacuees in Russia / russia occupied part? Or does the 17k include parts under Russian control? QueensanditsCrazy (talk) 13:12, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Pull Covered in ongoing... just another footnote in the grand scheme of the war. Mass executions and burials have taken place time and time again and we quit posting those as they were also covered by the ongoing item. This really isn't much different considering the impact of this event is speculative at best right now. NoahTalk01:20, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm not seeing a clear consensus here. As of right now it looks like about half of the comments support posting with the other half split between waiting and oppose. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:49, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Don't Pull - Massive story, and massive long-term implications. I feel sometimes that if Ukraine were to drop a nuke on the Kremlin, someone would be shouting "Ongoing"! Nfitz (talk) 05:00, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Most of the oppose !votes were factually incorrect. They said that it's covered by the ongoing article but that article still says nothing at all about this. They said that we don't post news about the war in Ukraine when we have repeatedly posted major incidents. And they said that there was no impact when there's clearly a giant hole in the dam now, lots of physical consequences and plenty of international outrage.
The one valid opposing argument was that the article was a stub. But that's no longer the case as the article about the dam's destruction has had hundreds of edits by over a hundred editors and now seems reasonably respectable. Well done!
The main article for the war can't contain all the details, which is why for ongoing we have to consider the child articles that do go into those details, which there are plenty of timelines and the like. (I have said we should be linking to a main timeline for this long of an event, similar to what we had done for COVID). So yes, those oppose !votes were valid.
Also, numerous other buildings have been destroyed with holes left in the ground. There is yet - outside of evacuations - any immediate impact of the dam, it is more the question "was this sabotage and who did it", which would be a far more compelling story in some situations. Masem (t) 12:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't think this is worth the hassle of pulling at this point, but at the time it was posted there seem to have been 10 !votes for support, 10 for waiting, and 5 for oppose. That's not a consensus. We should have let the discussion run for another 24 hours to see if those advocating wait (which included me) switched to support or oppose. Posting was premature. Modest Geniustalk11:25, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - As one who !voted to wait, we really shouldn't pull this now. The consensus could realistically have gone either way, yes, but the support !voters do have an edge per Andrew's reasoning (I don't find myself saying that very often). It's on the Main Page, it's the top ITN blurb, it's got a picture associated with it. Frankly, we'll look like a bunch of amateurs if we have this story up one day and then suddenly hide it the next, only to repost it again two or three days later. And I say this as someone who generally rails against Template:U for his admin decisions here at ITN; he got it right today. --Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)13:25, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The admin posting is supposed to judge consensus, not decide on their own that the circumstances merit posting. nableezy - 13:51, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It seemed like a supervote to me, but I didn't think it was worth litigating. This context makes me think that it probably should be challenged a little more firmly when it happens. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 14:14, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
However you want to slice it, I'll say at least that it's not as egregious as misreading of consensus as the previous one. Maybe that doesn't make it a clean-cut reading of consensus, but at the same time, how can you determine consensus in a setting where it's "highly subjective" by definition? Cheers, ⛵ WaltClipper-(talk)14:17, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by poster. This is not to relitigate the issue but for transparency, I'll elaborate on the factors for evaluating the consensus that resulted in posting.
First, not all "Wait" expressions are created equal. One can say wait for something to happen; if it happens, that wait can be interpreted as support. Another wait can be for something that is extremely unlikely or never happens, which can be evaluated as an oppose. Yet another wait might be based on something not supported by policy or ITN norms, so it cannot be easily considered in the mix of !votes. That said, no fewer than 4 of the 7 wait votes leaned support ("once this starts being discussed more broadly in the news," "this could become an extremely significant event, though we will have to wait and see," "untill [sic] impact becomes clear," "precise information is still not readily available") Two of the other wait votes leaned support but wanted "tomorrow" or "24h". In the many hours that passed since those wait sentiments were expressed, a lot more information came out about the impact downstream and the evacuations. Additionally, a burst of 4 straight support votes before posting reflected the development of the news cycle and the momentum of the discussion.
Second, to address the "covered by ongoing" sentiments. As per the news cycle observation above, news outlets swiftly moved away from using explosion, blast, or attack to describe the incident. With no reliable link to either Russia or Ukraine as actors that caused the dam's destruction, the dam breach was covered as an ecological and humanitarian event in its own right. Outlets such as BBC even discussed how the road and dam conditions were deteriorating as far back as June 2 before the breach, suggesting possible explanations that did not include a military strike. Therefore, the arguments that this was "covered by ongoing" did not sync with the article or the facts in the news. It doesn't mean opposes didn't count, but it does mean rebalancing the weight of "covered by ongoing."
Within this context, the consensus favored posting as a standalone ITN item. Given the passage of 24 hours, I stand by the decision to post and am surprised by the portrayal that it was a supervote. As an addendum, the recent conversation at Wikipedia talk:In the news#Straw poll: The purpose of ITN should be noted, where there was a significant sentiment that ITN has a role to help readers find topics that are in the news or receiving attention in the mainstream press/media. While we haven't taken the feedback in that discussion to adjust any firm guidelines yet, we need to recognize that serving the readership of Wikipedia to find things of interest, and of quality, has emerged as a priority from that discussion. Thanks. - Fuzheado | Talk14:59, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your rationale for posting is a fine one for something other than posting. It is a rationale for a support not not-vote. But you are saying that because you think that the "covered by ongoing" opposes were trumped by sources discussing it outside of the context of the ongoing item (never mind that Ukraine has now accused Russia of blowing the dam), you are making a counter-argument, not judging consensus. Of course it was a super vote, thats why the rationale was focused on the reasons why it should be posted and not whether or not a consensus supported it being posted. When you feel that something should or should not be posted, vote, dont promote. nableezy - 15:46, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think the posting rationale is fine even though I procedurally opposed this because of the ongoing item. However, it’s perhaps good time to verify if we still need the ongoing item and if Russian invasion of Ukraine is the correct target. It really seems like this has turned out to be a collection of notable consequential individual events rather than a general ongoing story.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:28, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, I was thinking this may be an opportunity to establish some more guidelines around "ongoing" in general, as the guidance at WP:ONGOING is not deep. These types of debates have come up more often with recent issues of COVID-19 and prolonged political/military crises. Too often, it seems we are touching different parts of the elephant on how to appropriately treat ongoing (or not) stories. - Fuzheado | Talk16:58, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Despite opposing the posting, I am generally satisfied by this explanation. However, given your history, I would think you might want to stick to only posting clear-cut stories- indeed, I would go so far as to say that any future posting by you in which there is not obvious consensus is unacceptable, regardless of if I personally agree with it. Kicking222 (talk) 21:07, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I used the word "I" four times in my first comment, including "I would think" and "I would go so far as to say". What in the world is your problem? Kicking222 (talk) 22:32, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand this perspective on "Wait" votes. Most people who voted "Wait" on this nom (myself included) wanted more concrete information about the exact impacts of this event before posting. If nothing else, why rush to post said item? This isn't going to vanish from the news any time soon. DarkSide830 (talk) 18:52, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Discography is orange-tagged, and I'd oppose a blurb. My personal rule on blurbing deaths is in order to even be considered, it should at least be a vital article. Of course, this rule isn't bulletproof, and depending on the person, I would bend it, but as far as I remember for the people we've blurbed who died Jean-Luc Godard was a vital article, Tina Turner was a vital article, Mikhail Gorbachev was a vital article, so on. That's my thoughts on it. TheBlueSkyClub (talk) 15:07, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@TheBlueSkyClub We blurbed Shane Warne, Jean Paul-Belmondo, Jim Brown (actor and football player), Jiang Zemin, former Angola president dos Santos, former Phillipine President, actors from India. Were they all vital articles? Kirill C1 (talk) 16:25, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support blurbing. if I find time this evening I'll address the issues raised by TheBlueSkyClub. Wanted to do the nom myself but... ugh... I wasn't really sure how to do it properly. --Ouro (blah blah) 15:16, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb Article is not of a reasonable quality that readily demonstrates any impact or legacy she may have had. From what I have seen I don't think this type of section is even possible so this is not a blurb-appropriate RD. Still looks like quality issues prior to posting as RD --Masem (t) 16:55, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose blurb, reluctantly. Post to RD when in good shape. If we didn't blurb João Gilberto when he passed in July 2019, it's tough to justify blurbing Astrud Gilberto. I will note that Portugeuse Wikipedia only has him on RD and not ITN. Though, interestingly, they have a policy that states, "avoid news that only interests specific countries like Brazil or Portugal." - Fuzheado | Talk19:35, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Blurb. We post death blurbs for too many music-related persons as it is. There are many "fields" or "genres" of music, being notable for one, even if you are the premier name in said genre, is far from unique. DarkSide830 (talk) 22:42, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the new footnotes, Fakescientist8000. Upon further review, there are a couple more {cn} tags. And, does the Political career section seem a bit thin for 40+ years in Parliament? There is no info on what he did in Cabinet. -- PFHLai (talk) 10:31, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Some unsourced statements here and there that I will get taken care of. Weak oppose for now.Support Article is good to go. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800019:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose No, it is not ready. There is unsourced content in the article and the In the media section will have to be re-written as it is mostly composed of one-sentence paragraphs. --Vacant0 (talk) 09:56, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support He's definitely notable enough, but I agree that the article still needs more sources and cleaning up to be ready. Oltrepier (talk) 07:14, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Track career section is largely unsourced. There are also a few {cn} tags in the Later years section. Please add more REFs. --PFHLai (talk) 09:47, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: My bad, I forgot to mention: the article is still being expanded and re-worked extensively, but anyway, it shouldn't be too hard to bring it in good shape. Oltrepier (talk) 08:52, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose and Wait Let's wait, the protests only began two days ago. If this develops into something more, it could be posted to ITN. We also have the 2023 Serbian protests, which began almost a month ago, shortly after the two mass shootings, yet it has not been nominated to ITN even though it has also garnered international attention due to its size. --Vacant0 (talk) 09:50, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The Career sections appears to be an entire reshuffle of the filmography, just converted into prose. Oh, and it's all unsourced. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800023:54, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Article needs some work as per nom, but I have removed the IMDB citation. Dead links are fine, as they usually showed that some verifiable information relevant to the person existed at some point. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800004:02, 10 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support The article is important enough, it has enough references & it seems like it’s just big enough to meet the standards for posting. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 07:08, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for a couple of reasons. The first is that the situation is improving, thus making this less of a developing news story.[52][53] But even if the status quo remained as it was before, widespread wildfires have unfortunately become an annual occurrence in North America. People being required to evacuate their homes is basically routine, and approving a blurb about a wildfire for the main page requires exceptional circumstances (e.g. numerous deaths, large-scale destruction). Think along the lines of the Fort McMurray fire from 2016, or the fires in Australia from just before COVID. Kurtis(talk)03:44, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Wildfires, even in Canada, are common this time of year, and unless we have significant damage, this is not rising to significance for ITN. (I mean, we didn't post the earlier BC wildfires that were sending smoke into WA and OR, for example). --Masem (t) 04:38, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The career section is mostly comprised of him being elected and re-elected. If there is some information about his actual career that he did as minister and in the parliament, it should be added. For now, it is a stub. --Vacant0 (talk) 09:37, 6 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Based on the news source, it seems to be significant news about someone of high recognition and reputation. I believe it is worthy of being posted. Meloncookie (talk) 07:31, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Suppott It's Looks alright,There are ample sources under existing articles,As a Pakistani woman writer I think she has a unique understanding of feminism, but I think I can describe her work in more detail.악준동 (talk) 07:44, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support—This report is vivid and detailed, vividly showing the emotional state and behavior of the characters, so that readers can truly feel the charm and inner world of the characters, as well as their role and influence in the event. The news can enable readers to have a deeper understanding and pay attention to the people reported.Muqing112233 (talk) 07:35, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support on significance, oppose on quality information on this story is still very fresh, and the death toll is very likely to rise significantly. Because information is still fresh, the article cannot possibly be ready for the front page, but I expect that the article will be ready for the front page soon. NorthernFalcon (talk) 18:58, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support in principle Article quality needs to be improved, and once it's expanded enough consider this a support. No doubt about notability, deaths have already risen to ~150. TwistedAxe[contact]19:50, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. The train that was involved regularly cruises at over 115kph, and all indications are pointing towards a full-speed collision given the casualties. What a sad tragedy. Kcmastrpc (talk) 22:44, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support once the article's quality improves This is obviously significant enough to post, but the article's quality isn't good enough yet. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 22:57, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Posted Article is beyond stub stage and will expand. Subject is a massive transportation related disaster and a no brainer for ITN. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:01, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support. This is a good example of striking a balance between swiftly posting an article around a newsworthy event in the public interest while also being in an acceptable and useful state. Good work around a tragic event. - Fuzheado | Talk23:18, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support. I support the blurb. That said, I don't understand why it is illustrated by a picture of Modi visiting the site. I have absolutely no animosity against Modi, but it isn't appropriate to make such a tragic event something about him. The picture should be one of the crash. This personality cult is indecent in the present context — Preceding unsigned comment added by Varoon2542 (talk • contribs) 21:28, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of the Modi picture, I suggest that the article's diagram(right) be shown as this is more informative – showing the configuration of this complex crash.
The diagram is simplified, not representing the lengths of the trains for example, and there is nothing to verify the content. It will not look good in a thumbnail. Stephen12:21, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Though simplified as insufficient data has been released to make an accurate reconstruction, it gives a far better idea of the crash than prose does. Professional news media illustrations have around the same amount of detail:
Support.I think that such a large-scale catastrophic event needs to be delivered to the reader in a timely manner, and the number of deaths exceeds 200, which is a worldwide tragedy. Even though the quality of the article still leaves room for improvement, I still choose to support the publication. However, please pay attention to the subsequent data update, I think that among the more than 900 injured, there will still be cases of death after serious injuries. Zhou Yuji1028 (talk) 07:37, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree the picture needs changing; better to have no image at all than to promote one particular political party at an especially tragic event. Optics, people, optics. SN5412915:18, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Would prefer additional information about the protests, but meets minimum depth standards and the article explains why people are protesting. Oppose ongoing at present. SpencerT•C04:30, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The policy is WP:CIRCULAR, Wikipedia does not use itself as a source. Each page stands on its own for verifiability. If sources on another page make sense, feel free to reuse them.—Bagumba (talk) 10:47, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Some unsourced statements in the Theater career and Film and television sections, and the lead should be longer than one sentence.Support Article's issues have been cleaned up, and this is good to go for ITNRD. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800014:42, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Grimes2, for finding refs! I was afraid I would have to do the work, and have no time ;) - Two paras end with no citation, but I bet that can be fixed easily. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:17, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Article looks ok for ITNRD, it's not a blurb we're nominating. The article could obviously use some more work but it's okay in its current state. TwistedAxe[contact]20:24, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now – Article needs to be given a decent structure. Much of the prose is in the lead; the lead is supposed to be the summary of the article's content. Schwede6602:44, 2 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now - I want you to explain what kind of person he is, not just to explain his degree. I'd like to explain his achievements. Jiminewiki (talk) 07:19, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now - The content is too brief and requires a detailed explanation of his research. In addition, this article requires a constructive structure.MINJI JEONG (talk) 07:25, 5 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Football is more than well represented on ITNR (actually the most represented sport) and I don't see reasons to post things beyond the championships listed there. Gotitbro (talk) 10:22, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support for multiple reasons. Firstly, it’s not true that football is well represented on ITN, with the 2022 FIFA World Cup Final being the last story posted five months ago (it’s true that there are many ITNR items, but they don’t get posted regularly). Secondly, the argument that this is a second-tier competition is simply not valid. Yes, it’s superior to the Champions League, but it’s far above the quality of second-tier domestic leagues. For instance, Barcelona (winners of this season’s La Liga), Arsenal (runners-up in this season’s Premier League), Machester United (third-placed team in this season’s Premier League) and Juventus all played in this competition this season. Thirdly, this is clearly a newsworthy event with decent media coverage worldwide and very high viewership figures. Fourthly, the article on the final is in good shape. Fifthly, in the absence of posting domestic leagues this year, this could be a perfect ad hoc substitute. Sixthly, the last time this was posted was in 2010, so it’s good to refresh memories from time to time. There are many practical reasons why this merits inclusion, and it’s completely irrelevant if the Champions League final is in ten days (the domestic leagues are usually decided in a time span of two weeks, but that doesn’t prevent us from considering them for posting as ITNR items).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 17:23, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fundamentally, this is a 'runners up' competition for teams that weren't good enough to qualify for the Champions League, or were knocked out of it early. That's why it's a second-tier tournament - which even our article Europa League states in its lead. Modest Geniustalk17:27, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
#FC_Bayern_Munich_wins_Bundesliga is an active ITNR nomination that hasn't been posted because of quality. La Liga concludes on June 4 and was nominated in May but told to wait. Soccer is plenty represented on ITNR and it's not our fault that the quality of ITNR pages isn't good enough. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:35, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
La Liga was not posted because it lacked (and still lacks) a prose update summarising the season, but was given a second chance when the season ends even though it won’t be news any more (the Premier League received the same treatment and was eventually not posted). It’s clear that sport events are posted when the winner is known (Formula One is an excellent example how does this work in practice). In fact, football is well represented on ITNR, but unfortunately not on ITN, so it’s worth considering ad hoc substitutes.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 17:46, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, the solution would be to get the ITNR articles up to posting caliber. That was the point of getting those on ITNR in the first place. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:59, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - The Europa League does not consistently generate nearly the same global coverage as the Champions League, nor should it be elevated beyond other continental championships. We should try to check our bias at the door and not add yet another European competition to ITNR. SounderBruce19:38, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This isn't ITN/R, and I'd argue that these championships aren't as major and notable as championships like the FIFA World Cup. UEFA does host Euro championships every 4 years which deserve to be ITN, however the last one was in 2021 and the next one is in 2024. Also, per Gotitbro, soccer is too well represented in ITN already with Champions League, FIFA World Cup among some other championships being posted every now and then. TwistedAxe[contact]20:23, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
One of the main functions of ITN is to provide helpful links to articles about topics which are in the news. This is in the news now. If we wait until all the formalities are completed, then most readers will have moved on and we won't have helped them understand the matter. Andrew🐉(talk) 07:55, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now. Firstly, increases of the US debt ceiling have become quite frequent over the past decade, with the most recent one taking place in December 2021. Secondly, this is a bail-out bill to settle the crisis with no immediate consequences. The main uncertainty in this crisis was that the US Treasury would fail to service its debt, but now it won't happen because they've finally come to a resolution. In similar cases, the credit rating agencies typically respond by downgrading a country's credit rating due to the accumulated risks, which would be substantially more newsworthy as a direct consequence, but that's not very likely because of politics (there was a lot of fuss when S&P downgraded the US credit rating in August 2011). That being said, the two main outcomes from one such crisis, which would merit posting, are a bankrupt (not an option any more) and a downgraded credit rating (not very likely to happen). But let's wait and see.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:13, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - domestic politics with little impact. Now if the US actually defaulted that would be news worth posting. Idiosyncrasies of the US political system arent needed here. nableezy - 09:12, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose "Thing that happens every 1-2 years happened again" is not news. As Kiril Simeonovski and Nableezy correctly point out, if it hadn't happened, that would have been news. And if some lasting consequences happened, like a downgraded credit rating or (finally) an abolition of the debt ceiling, that would be news. But this is just business as usual, grandstanding by some politicians notwithstanding. Even the stock market was barely affected by it. Regards SoWhy10:13, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Andrew Davidson: If the Booker Prize was awarded to the same book every year, I would agree with you. Recurring items still have different outcomes. That we do not write an article every time there is a debt ceiling discussion does not mean it does not happen regularly. As pointed out by others, the debt ceiling was raised three times under Trump alone and twice under Biden before, in October and December 2021 ([54]), the last time thus being less than 1.5 years ago. Regards SoWhy13:04, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Per Ecclesiastes, it's hard to be truly original. The particulars of this debt crisis have some similiarities and some differences with previous ones. It's just the same with books which have common features, influences and allusions too. So it goes. Andrew🐉(talk) 13:14, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This happens frequently and is a standard feature of US politics. If there had been a default, that might have been significant enough to merit a blurb. But simply agreeing to keep things running isn't a major event. Modest Geniustalk10:59, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Even if it passes the Senate. The debt ceiling was raised 3 times under Trump, so this is not an unusual situation. If the US defaulted on it, that would be a different story. --Masem (t) 12:25, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment We did post about the report that confirmed these warcrimes in Afghanistan. Do we really need do go ahead with a minor update of a defamation lawsuit as to that? I would wait for something more significant. Gotitbro (talk) 10:27, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: this is a confusing case. As far as I can tell from the article, he hasn't actually been convicted of war crimes. Instead, he's lost a claim against several newspapers, because their allegations against him were probably true. That's a lower standard of proof and won't lead to any punishment of Roberts-Smith (except legal costs and damage to his reputation), right? Even if he had been convicted by a war crimes tribunal or the ICC, it seems to be a pretty minor case compared to other war crimes in Afghanistan. Modest Geniustalk11:08, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would support on notability/in-the news'ness as part of the interest is he's their most decorated living (ex-)solider, now found by a court of law that most of the claims of war crime are substantially true. -- KTC (talk) 15:16, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Already having posted the report that confirmed the crimes, with nobody being thrown in jail; just some money being taken away from one rich and famous man to a couple rich and famous media outlets. Cheers, atque supra! Fakescientist800016:54, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
GA on ITN. Secondly, I'd say this is a pretty big landmark in America's embracement of public transport (like you said, the first new metro in the U.S in three decades). Thirdly, and I hate to invoke OTHERSTUFFEXISTS-esque arguments, but I'd say that this frankly affects a lot more people than say the barbeque restaurant story that's been on ITN for the past week (still number two btw despite that); this is mainly directed against anyone denouncing this as "too regional." - Knightoftheswords (Talk · Contribs) 16:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
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GA article on ITN (that being Wreck of the Titanic). Plus, something that makes this a little unique is that one of the believed passengers himself is notable enough to have his own article (Hamish Harding). The article needs a little more expansion, but its not unworkable. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk · Contribs) 22:19, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
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