Talk:Rachel Yakar

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Rachel Yakar/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Johannes Schade (talk · contribs) 09:04, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Good day Gerda Arendt. I propose to review your GA nomination Rachel Yakar. We have met before, and I want to take the occasion to thank you again for the kind welcome you put on my talk page when I debuted in Wikipedia on 13 July 2018. Admittedly, I am still an apprentice-reviewer and no subject-matter expert in opera singers. I will propose corrections and suggest optional improvements. The corrections rely on the GA criteria (WP:GACR).

You nominated Rachel Yakar on 3 July 2023. I wonder whether you were aware of the changes to Criterion 2b that came into effect on 2 July 2023 and often result in a need for additional citations. I only became aware of this change yesterday by chance.

Some of my corrections and suggestions are tentative. Please tell me whenever you disagree with a correction. I am probably wrong. You can ignore my suggestions. They have no effect on the article's promotion. I will start with the preliminaries and then go through the article’s sections, sometimes returning to previous sections when needed.

Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 09:04, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the detailed review. I think I better clarify some things in general before going into detail in replies. I didn't write this article from scratch, the was content before I came to it, and things were changed during its exposure while on the Main page in the Recent deaths section. What I found was a referencing system with a templated inline citation (the notice of her death) and several empty infobox parameters of I which I deleted most. What was added was for example the word "Jewish". I talked to the user, and there was no understanding. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:41, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

On referencing: There was a time when I used {{r}} for references, more than 10 years ago. Yes, it's elegant. But I often use my references in others' articles, and found it often not compatible. I also believe that "ref" is not much longer than "r", but has more meaning for let's say someone who edits the first time. If change, I'd change to sfn. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:49, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Before the article content

Most of the remarks below are only suggestions, which you can ignore. They just reflect what I think would be "nice", especially for people who read the code.

• Use British English (?) – Please insert a template (e.g. {{Use British English}} to declare the English variant in which the article is written. Your use of "favourite" rather than "favorite" makes me believe that you use British English or at least not American English. I need your input to be able to correct possible mistakes proper to the variant. Future editors also need to know and respect your choice when adding to your text.

Thanks, Johannes Schade (talk) 19:50, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

• Optional Use list-defined references – I suggest to insert the template {{Use list-defined references}} as you do indeed use this very recommendable citation style. It would alert future editors to your choice and increase the chance that they will respect it. It would also do a bit of advertising for your chosen citation style.

Thanks, Johannes Schade (talk) 19:50, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

• Optional Infobox, parameter "|image=" – The image looks blurred. It would of course be nice to find the same or a similar one in a higher resolution. It also is under copyright. I am not an expert on image rights, but user User:Storye book", who uploaded it", seems to know what he is doing. It has not been deleted to date, so it is probably fine.
• Optional Infobox, parameter "|caption=" – I suggest to omit all empty infobox parameters. Some editors take such entries as an invitation to fill them in, leading to bloated infoboxes.
• Optional Infobox, parameter "|birth name=" – I suggest to omit all empty infobox parameters.
• Optional Template capitalisation – I suggest to standardise on capitalising template names in the manner as you capitalised {{Short description}} to all of them (e.g. {{birth date}} -> {{Birth date}})
• Optional Infobox, parameter "|organizations=" – I believe each entry in an infobox should stand up separately. I would therefore repeat the link to "Paris Conservatoire" in the "organizations" parameter. MOS:REPEATLINK allows to do so in infoboxes.

  I adopted most of these, with edit summaries. The image is called "fair-use" which means the image is only there to illustrate her article, and may not be used elsewhere, not in Wikipedia, not outside. I didn't unify template capitalisation because if it was my choice it would be all lowercase. The SD was written by someone else. I feel that this is really something that a reader doesn't see, and therefore of little relevance. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:14, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Lead

I feel the lead is fine. It complies with MOS:LEADLENGTH as leads of articles with "Fewer than 15,000 characters" do not need more than a single paragraph. The wikilinks are sufficient and well-chosen and avoid the MOS:SEAOFBLUE problem, despite the quite high density of links.

• Optional. Only paragraph, 4th sentence. ... received international attention ... – I wondered whether you would prefer "earned international acclaim".

  I prefer "attention", thank you for the offer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:17, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Life and career

This section's subdivisions will be treated separately below ignoring the structure.

• Optional. Only paragraph, references at the end. <ref name="Kutsch/Riemens" /><ref name="Oxford" /> – Is there a reason to avoid the {{R}} usually employed in list-defined references? I believe {{R|Kutsch/Riemens|Oxford}} would be shorter and more elegant. I feel you would do well to replace "<ref name=REFNAME>" with "{{R|REFNAME}}" in all your inline citations. The enhancement in readability is especially notable when the citations are in the middle of paragraphs and when several citations appear together.

• Only paragraph, 1st reference at the end. <ref name="Kutsch/Riemens" /> – This reference refers to the article on Rachel Yakar in the Großes Sängerlexikon. The definition gives the two pages over which this article stretches. However, the article is in fact quite long due to the small fontsize. I estimated about 700 words. I find that it quite often becomes difficult for the reader of reviewer to identify the relevant passage in the source. WP:PAGENUM prescribes with regard to books "Specify the page number or range of page numbers." I would either give two Refnames (e.g. Kutsch5116 and Kutsch5117 or use {{R}} with the "p" parameter.

Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 13:49, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Life and career (revisited)

• Only paragraph, 1st sentence. ... Jewish family ... – This information is not in the Großes Sängerlexikon and needs to be verified by citing another source. As you put citations at the end of each sentence in this paragraph (which is perhaps needless), one would expect this additional citation at the end of the first sentence.

  See above, not by me. What can we do? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:04, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

You are the nominator, so I talk to you, regardless of whoever wrote the part of the text in question. I noted that you have contacted the editor who added the "Jewish family" without getting any citation from him/her. I googled the name Yakar and found Yakar in a list of names of Jewish families in Smyrna (https://sephardicgenealogy.com/jews-of-turkey/). I also found the book "Essai sur l'histoire des israélites de l'Empire Ottoman depuis les origines à nos jour" (1897) by Moïse Franco (https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uiug.30112124382190&seq=300). Perhaps one can still find a quotation. As I understand it, the tighted criterion 2b demands a citation for such a statement. Unless you can find one somewhere, the only solution might be to delete. Greetings, Johannes Schade (talk) 19:50, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I looked and found nothing on the internet in German and English. French I don't kow enough to search. I conclude that - while she may have well been Jewish - it played no role other than privately and therefore should not be mentioned. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:14, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Dear Gerda, I would disagree with respect to "it should not be mentioned". The article well mentions her marriage, which also is a private matter. I think it should be mentioned, if a citation could be found. Times have changed. When I was young I had an American friend in Munich who studied music. He was Jewish but never told me so. My wife much later befriended a Jewish lady in South Africa. She told us straight-away, just as I would tell somebody I was German. I think it is important background information in a biography. Have you looked at here? I thought it might be usable, perhaps wrapped inside an Efn, of the sort "{{Efn|Yakar is known to be an east-Sephardic family name.<ref name=Sephardic />". I shows that Yakar was considered a Jewish name in Smyrna. Of course it is only a website. I do not know whether it can be considered reliable. I lack experience on that side as I hardly ever use other sources than books and journals. I can afford to do so as my subjects are typically 17th century. I will have another look at the French book by Franco. I am however afraid that it probably does not go further than mentioning quite a few Yakars who were Jewish and lived in Turkey, which perhaps is not good enough. There is also the book ""Histoire des Juifs de Turquie"by Avram Galanté, which can be read at here. I will have a look at that as well. Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 08:21, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

I am sorry not to have been clear. Of course it should be mentioned if confirmed by a source. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:10, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

ps: I worked on Kafka. - I thought leaving it in until you remanded a source was clear enough about me wanting to mention it, but obviously not, - sorry again. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:15, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Dear Gerda. I practically spent the day on looking for a citation suitable for "Jewish family". The name surely is Jewish. It means "precious" or "expensive" in Hebrew. The most famous of all the Yakars seems to be the talmudist Yaakov ben Yakar who died in Mainz in 1064. Wikipedia has an article on him. In his case I would guess that the "ben Yakar" is a patronymic rather than a surname. Yakar seems to have originally have been a first name. It seems I was wrong to claim that the name is exclusively east-Sephardic, even if this seems to be so in Rachel's case. Many books mention Jewish persons of that surname or patronymic. I wonder whether an Efn, of the sort "" with a citation from a Hebrew dictionary for the word and a long list of citations mentioning the name in Jewish contexts would be good enough. Best regards, Johannes Johannes Schade (talk) 21:16, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

That makes a lot of sense to me. I'll be busy for the next two days - two weddings in a row! After you did all the research, for which I thank you very much, and with you knowing best what you found: how about you adding the footnote? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:23, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Deutsche Oper am Rhein

• Only paragraph, 2nd sentence. ... Eurydike in Gluck's Orpheus und Eurydike ... – I do not see why "Eurydike" and "Orpheus und Eurydike" (in German) when the language of the original libretto was Italian.

  At that time, it would have been performed in German. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:15, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

• Only paragraph, 2nd sentence. ... such as ... – The long list of roles, operas, and composers should follow an understandable logic. I would say: role in opera (by composer), e.g. Euridice in Orfeo ed Euridice (by Gluck). I would repeat the composer even if already mentioned to avoid disturbing the order. I would keep "Contessa" and not translate it to "countess".

  The standard for operas is: role in x's opera, only I don't like "Strauss's" and in that case say "by". I have been criticised as pedantic for mentioning each composer, but believe that we have readers who don't recognise even "familiar" operas but might know a more familiar composer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:15, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

• Only paragraph, 3rd sentence. She also appeard as ... – I suppose this differs from the 2nd sentence because these roles are minor. If this is indeed so, I would advise to make that explicit. I would apply the same logic as in the 2nd sentence. Besides, "Gounod" is mispelled as "Gouod".

  It's not minor, only splitting the long list somehow. I tried differently now. Typo fixed (my n-key is stuck ...). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:15, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

International performances

Beiing French but part of a German ensemble, "International" is perhaps a bit confusing in Yakar's case. I would perhaps say "Performances elsewhere".

I made it Europe. --GA

• 1st paragraph, 2nd sentence. ... as the composer ... – I feel that "as the Composer" (with an uppercase C) would make it clearer that the Composer is indeed a role to be sung in this opera.

  done --GA

• 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence. ... Gilda ... – Getting here, I had forgotten all about Gilda in Rigoletto. Perhaps remind the reader that Gilda is in Rigoletto.

  done --GA

• 2nd paragraph, 3rd sentence. ... internationally ... – Perhaps "outside of the Deutsche Oper am Rhein".

  That could just be Cologne and Bielefeld ;) --GA

• 3rd paragraph, first few sentences. ... Incoronazione ... – The present description practically gives nothing more than what is already stated in the lead. The treatment in the text should normally be more detailed. What was said about her performance?

  good idea, but too tired right now - thanks again! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:36, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 20:47, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Johannes, in reply to the last item, I added two reviews for Poppea (under recordings), and one for Elvira (under Repertoire. I thought about Kutsch/Riemens, but it's only two pages, - if a fact isn't on one it must be on the other. I could add to the few there, if you think it's useful. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:42, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Life and career (revisited again)

• Only paragraph, 1st sentence. ... in Lyon ... – I found that more precisely she was born in Lyon in the 7th arrondissement. The reference for this is here. Yakar is a Jewish firstname for boys.here It means "precious". In Hebrew it is represented by the three Hebrew letters Yod (Y, 10th letter of the Hebrew alphabet), Qoph (Q, 19th letter of the Hebrew alphabet) and Resh (R, 12th letter of the Hebrew alphabet), but the Q is usually translitterated as K in English and in French. As Hebrew is written from right to left these three Hebrew letters appear of course in inverse order in the dictionary. Any Hebrew-English dictionary may be cited for yakar=precious. For example Shiloh Dictionary, here. As Yakar is a boy's name, it appears in old Jewish patronymic names such as Yaakov ben Yakar and Judah ben Yakar. As a surname Yakar is common among Sephardic Jews as can be shown by a search of the Central Database of Shoah Victims.[1]

It is of course quite remarkable that we do not have her parents' names and nothing about her childhood under German occupation. Lyon was initially part of the "zone libre", but was occupied as part of the "zone sud" in November 1942, when Klaus Barbie became chef of the Gestapo in Lyon. Rachel was 6 at the time.

Dear Gerda, I am a bit sick and working slowly. Please excuse. Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 20:56, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

All the best for recovery, and there's no rush whatsoever. Thank you for all the interesting research. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:04, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I returned with some time, go over it sequentially and respond whenever I can. I might forget otherwise.

I am sorry but I can't access the ref for the specific arrondissement. I am very hesitant to add a source I haven't seen. I suggest we just leave it Lyon. Or you add it. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:30, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Dear Gerda, that is very strange; how could it be that I can access this site but you can't? I suppose you have carefully checked the URL. What browser are you using? Mine is Google Chrome, but I have also tried with FireFox. Both work fine. You must not write "deces" as "décès" in the URL. What do you get when you try the URL? Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 15:18, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Dear Gerda, You suggested I should "add the footnote". However, I never edit the articles that I review. I feel that is the nominator's role. However, I will provide you with the pieces you need. Please check them carefully and make sure you agree. Do not hesitate to adjust or reject. These "pieces" are:

Life and career, 1st paragraph, 1st sentence. I propose to change this sentence to:

"Yakar was born in the 7th Arrondissement of [[Lyon]]<ref name=Lyon /> on 3 March 1936 to a Jewish{{Efn|name=Jew}} family of Greek-Turkish origin.<ref name="Kutsch/Riemens" />. So I add 7th Arrondissement , the Efn and the final citation, which is there to make the citations clearer, but is perhaps not needed.

Notes. I added a section that I called "Notes" to define the contemnt of the Efn. You might of course prefer a different name, perhaps integrate it into References or choose a structure in two levels. I looked at some of your articles but could not find an example of how you like to do this. You do not seem to seldom use Efn. I propose the following section:

== Notes ==: {{Notelist

|refs= <!-- Allows only one Efn that includes citations. Some Efns are still defined in the text. -->

{{Efn|name=Jew|Yakar is a Jewish firstname for boys.<ref name=Boy /> It means "precious".<ref name=Precious /> As Yakar is a boy's name, it appears in old Jewish patronymic names such as [[Yaakov ben Yakar]] and [[Judah ben Yakar]]. As a surname Yakar is common among Sephardic Jews as can be shown by a search of the Central Database of Shoah Victims.<ref name=Shoah />}} }}

In your References section the definition for the 4 added citations called Lyon, Boy, Precious, and Shoah need to be added (inserting them in the alphabetical order of their names). I propose them as follows:

<ref name= Boy>{{cite web | url = https://namesfolder.com/hebrew-boy-name/yakar/ | title = Yakar Name Meaning, About Hebrew Boy Name Yakar | author = <!--Not stated --> | website = NamesFolder | access-date = 9 August 2023 </ref>

<ref name=Lyon>{{cite web | url = https://deces.matchid.io/id/UdP1E5XO4qz0/ | title = Rachel Yakar | author = <!--Not stated --> | website = Fichier des décès | access-date = 9 August 2023 }}</ref>

<ref name= Precious>{{cite book | last = Scharfstein | first = Zevi | date = 1957 | title = Shiloh Dictionary Hebrew-English | publisher = Shiloh Publishing House | location = New York | url = https://archive.org/details/bwb_W8-BKC-317/page/n95/ | url-access = registration }}</ref>

<ref name=Shoah>{{cite web | url = https://yvng.yadvashem.org/index.html?language=en&s_id=&s_lastName=Yakar | title = Central Database of Shoah Victims | author = <!--Not stated --> | access-date = 9 August 2023 }}</ref>

More to follow, Johannes Schade (talk) 14:17, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the diligent preparation! I added the footnote as proposed, with ref Boy, which also covers the meaning of the name. I believe that's ll we need for Jewish. I didn't add precision about the place of birth because I can't access the source, so can't verify what it says. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:30, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

• Only paragraph, 3rd sentence. She then studied voice ... – Yes, according to Kutsch, but the source "Bayreuth" contradicts this with "10 Jahre Klavier in Paris ...". According to the latter source she might have started studying voice only when she became a pupil of Lubin after her studies at the Conservatoire. This has a ring of truth: life sometimes leads us through strange detours. Perhaps there is a source somewhere that lists students and teachers of the Conservatoire that could tell us what she studied and who her teacher was?

  Thank you for that find. It's especially remarkable as for 95% (or more) percent of singers I've written about, the Bayreuth Festival simply copied from the GSL. - However, without a better source, I don't think it's worth adding. The fact that she studied with Lubin for another four years seems to support that there was not much voice training to build on. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:42, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

• Only paragraph, reference. <ref name="Kutsch/Riemens" /> – Dear Gerda, yes I insist. WP:PAGENUM prescribes with regard to books "Specify the page number or range of page numbers." Sometimes it is necessary to give a page range, but often it is quite easy to identify the exact page. When writing you certainly knew which facts were on which one of the two pages of the article. It makes the reviewer's task mor difficult to give the full range where you could easily have been more precise. The reviewer is supposed to verify that all the facts in the text are supported by passages in the source locations. This process can be very time-consuming. The reviewer must read through the given source locations (pages or page ranges) and judge whether a given fact is supported. Searches often do not help because of the paraphrasing. Often more than one citation is placed near the fact in the text (see WP:INTEGRITRY) and the reviewer needs to read more than one source location. The effort is so big that it is often simply not done or replaced with a couple of spotchecks. In the given case there should be a RefName for page 5116 and another for page 5117, e.g. Kutsch5116 and Kutsch5117. Keep these names short to keep the sourc code readable. Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 06:57, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

  I'll comply with you insisting, but I will not write the same reference twice. I'll leave those on 5116 as they are, and provide the link to the other page for the others, as described above, and done in other articles. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:21, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Deutsche Oper am Rhein (revisited)

• Only paragraph, 2nd sentence. ... Eurydike in Gluck's Orpheus und Eurydike ... – I now understand why you cite this opera's name in German after your explanation, but I do not think the general reader can understand. You would have to explain this also to the general reader and it would require a citation that supports the claim that Rachel sang it in German. That all probably goes to far. I would think it were much simpler to cite the opera by its original Italian name.

  I don't follow, because it's the source that indicates it was in German, with the German title. I think it's easier for the reader to have the link to the Italian, than be given an Italian title that can't be verified in the source. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:53, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

• Only paragraph, 3rd sentence. She also appeared there ... – The previous sentence gives a long list of composers, roles and operas ordered by some chronological criterion. One might expect that the 3rd sentence continues this list but the chronological order seems to have been abandoned in this list or is not recognisable. It appears haphazard to me. Perhaps the criterion could be mentioned explicitly and followed rigourously. Maybe I just do not understand.

  As said below: it's not chronological. It's a set of roles given by the Opera, and the third sentence has those given by Diapason, if not already mentioned by the other. What would you suggest? I have no idea about the chronology of performance. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:58, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Repertoire

Under this title one could have expected an appreciation of Rachel's performance in roles of various composers, ages and styles. As this section stands here, it adds some other roles that have not been mentioned before. I wonder a bit why a section Repertoire is needed. I feel the section could simply be incorporated into the previous one.

• 1st paragraph, 1st sentence. Her repertoire included Mozart roles ... – The first sentence uses an Oxford comma, whereas until now you never used it. Please standardise on the one or the other.

  Do you mean the one after Zauberflöte? - English commas remain a mystery to me, and their names even more, I just feel that a role on stage should be separated somehow from a recorded one. I'd start a new sentence if I'm breaking a rule by that comma ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:04, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 19:35, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Just returned home, thank you for more detail, - I'll reply later, probably tomorrow. Just two things for now: the roles at the Deutsche Oper am Rhein are not in chronological order, but by source. I don't know the chronology. I guess I more or less sorted by composition time within one source, to avoid copyvio. - The section repertoire could be combined with the previous one. It comes from Sängerlexicon: first the roles where they knew where she sang them, then some others. What I like about repertoire is her three topics, that are better recognisable there than in the others: Mozart - Baroque revived - contemporary. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:21, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Dear Gerda thanks for telling.

References

Reference Alexandre Ivan A. Alexandre (see "Ivan A. Alexandre" in the French Wikipedia); Just to state this explicitly: the first parameter should not be "A. van", but "Ivan A.". Alexandre regularly writes the column "La Chronique" in the magazine Diapason. This periodic exists on paper and online but seems to be safe behind its paywall and would be inaccessible to you and me, were it not for the "à la une" feature on the website, which you cite and which contains an obituary for Rachel. This obituary does not mention a number of the Diapason Magazine. The latest number is No 274, Été 2023, with Maria Callas on the cover. Perhaps this obituary has not yet been published in the magazine and will appear in the No 725? Probably impossible to know and so we cannot fille the paramer ïsse".

Thank you, - my lack of French ;) - fixed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:27, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Reference Braun Here as well the issue and page seem to be ubknown.

Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 20:15, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, and thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:27, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I have a general question. I started wit GLS to transform the refs to sfn (as for most of my other GAs), and I believe that I should take in more from Alexandre. For both, I'd need some more days. What do you think? - my problem with the source is that it's in French, which I know only enough to read a menu. Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:07, 12 August 2023 (UTC)--

Dear Gerda, of course, please go ahead and make further improvements, a few days more is not a problem. Tell me if I can help you in some way with the French. Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 07:09, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

References (continued)

I believe, the reference definitions should be ordered alphabetically by refname.

• Reference Hoffman

The author is indicated as Gary Hoffman at the top, but at the bottom the articles is signed "Jan Neckers". I do not understand. Do you? As this uses the template Cite web, should it not rather use the parameter "website" than "work"? (see Template:Cite web)

• Reference Steiger

This reference is a book that contains many articles each about an opera and the disks recording the presentations of this opera. I would therefore use the template "Cite encyclopedia" with parameters "title=Les Indes galantes" and "encyclopedia=Opern-Diskographie" in the description of the book in the source list, and the following entry in the refernce definitions:

<ref name=Steiger>
{{Harvnb|Steiger |2011 |p=[https://books.google.com/books?id=Zk9HSVAUarkC&pg=PA383 383]}}
</ref>

• Reference Deutsche Oper am Rhein

As this uses the template Cite web, it should use the parameter "website" rather than "work". The same is valid for all the other "Cite web" reference definitions that follow.

Cite sources

The template "Cite encyclopedia" would suit the GSL better than "Cite book".

Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 20:37, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

I transformed all refs to sfn now, sort first those with author, by name, then the others, by ref name. I think I fixed per the remarks above. Hoffman: I had him as Hoffman, per the top, and later saw the other name, and was lazy and didn't change, - I also really wouldn't know. Before I can turn to more serious improvements, I have to improve two more RD articles, and want to improve the Schumann songs. - You asked if you can help, - sure: you could create at least a stub for M. Alexandre whom I elevated to the lead, for a nice summary, and you could point out which facts from his writing you think would be worth getting over to the article. More important for him than for sources in English because readers will be able to read the English ones easily but may have a language barrier for his facts. Same for the GLS, but that I could do myself eventually. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:33, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Before the article content (revisited)

Since you have changed the citations to use Sfn and removed the definitions in Reflist, you must also replace the "Use list-defined references" with "Use shortened footnotes" near the beginning before the infobox. As you are by far the predominant contributor of the article I would thnk that you do not need to ask for permission to change the citation style as preconised in WP:CITEVAR.

Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 19:25, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Will do. Renata Scotto died, - expect more delay. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:28, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Still outstanding 23 September 2023

Dear Gerda, thanks for your latest corrections and for your patience we me. I have reread what we have and feel we are quite close to passing this as GA. Do you agree or are there still things you would like to add or to improve? The following are still outstanding as I understand it:

Deutsche Oper am Rhein (revisited again )

• Only paragraph, 2nd sentence. ... Eurydike in Gluck's Orpheus und Eurydike ... – If you find it important that Orpheus und Eurydike was performed in German and want share this with the reader than it would have to be much more explicit and would need a citation. I doubt you want to go that far. You keep "Najade" and "Ariadne auf Naxos" in German, even if it was probably performed in French at Aix-en-Provence. So, I would think, change it to "Euridice" and "Orfeo ed Euridice" as it appears in the linked article.

  I take it but can only hope that a reader who wants to verify will make the connection to the German in the source. (I find it much easier to make that connection from a link to an Italian work from a German, but you are the reviewer.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:44, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

  Dear Gerda, you have changed "Orpheus und Eurydike" to "Orfeo ed Euridice" but still need to change "Eurydike" to "Euridice" after "such as".

Repertoire (revisited)

I stll feel this heading does not reflect the content of the section. As already said: Under this title one could have expected an appreciation of Rachel's performance in roles of various composers, ages and styles. As this section stands here, it adds some other roles that have not been mentioned before. I wonder a bit why a section Repertoire is needed. I feel the section could simply be incorporated into the previous one.

I did that, trying to please. I don't think the last sentence fits under the header, though. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:28, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Done

Teaching

• Only paragraph, 1st sentence. ... From 1990 Yakar taught opera at the Paris Conservatoire, to 1997. – It sounds awkward to separate the "from" so far from the corresponding "to". I propose: "From 1990 to 1997 Yakar taught ...'.

  I got them together, but at the end, - problem was that the two years are in two sources (and one added later). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:32, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

  Done

Personal life

• 2nd paragraph, 2nd sentence. Conductor Minkowski thanked her ... – You have already mentioned Marc Minkowski at the end of the section "Performances in Europe", but I must admit I had forgotten about it when I encountered him here again. I feel he should be called "Marc Minkowski" here like it was further up. To me "Conductor Minkowski" sounds as if you introduce him here for the first time. Why does he appear here? Was his tribute in an obituary? If so perhaps say so. It would explain why he appears here.

  Well, I didn't know. I wanted to clarify that he was mentioned before, to explain why no link, and to use the full name again would not do that, to my understanding. His phrase is mentioned (in French) in a short notice of her death by someone else, as a summary. How would I say that? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:59, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

  You have a point. Perhaps just "Minkowski" without the "conductor". There is a obituary by Norman Lebrecht in English at "https://slippedisc.com/2023/06/france-mourns-a-leading-soprano/" that also cites Minkowski and makes it clearer that the cited "thanks" by Minkowski are indeed from an obituary. Lebrecht also mentions an obituary by Emmanuelle Haim. Perhaps it would be advantageous to replace the French obituary by Tobisch with this one? You could then say something like "Norman Lebrecht in his obituary mentions that Minkowski ...]".

  slippedisc is not regarded as a RS. I tried something else. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:27, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Cited sources

I feel the "Cite web"-sources should have "archive-url"-parameters in addition to the "url"-parameter to fight link rot. SeeHelp:Using the Wayback Machine.

This was mentioned in a few of previous GA and FA reviews, but as optional. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:03, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Commas

Before "and" there should be a comma when the "and" links two complete sentences (see Grammarly https://www.grammarly.com/blog/comma-before-and). For example your sentence "She was a member of the Deutsche Oper am Rhein from 1964 to 1991, and appeared also in Paris, at the Royal Opera House in London and at festivals including Bayreuth and Glyndebourne." should not have a comma before "and appeared" because the part starting with "and appeared" does not have its own subject. There are quite a few such superflous commas in your text. Please remove them.

Please read the Wikipedia article about the "Oxford comma". It is well explained and not complicated at all. Your sentence "She appeared at the Bayreuth Festival in 1975 and 1976 as Freia in Das Rheingold, Gerhilde in Die Walküre, and a Flower Maiden in Parsifal." uses an Oxford comma before "and a Flower Maiden". You must decide: either you use the Oxford comma in all your enumerations or in none. German and French do not use a comma before the final "and" of an enumeration. In English some texts do and some texts don't."

Whatever a comma is called, I use it for clarity. If I drop the comma "She appeared at the Bayreuth Festival in 1975 and 1976 as Freia in Das Rheingold, Gerhilde in Die Walküre and a Flower Maiden in Parsifal." I combine the Flower Maiden with the Walküre, which is nonsense: "Gerhilde in Die Walküre and a Flower Maiden". If you say I need to remove them, I'd rephrase, start a new sentence or whatever helps clarity. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:08, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree. The overriding goal is clarity, whatever the rules. I did not tell you to drop the comma in "She appeared at the Bayreuth Festival in 1975 and 1976 as Freia in Das Rheingold, Gerhilde in Die Walküre and a Flower Maiden in Parsifal." I think you misunderstood me in this regard. I was talking about commas before "and" and there is no "and" here. With thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 09:51, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't know what I misunderstood in the para above, about the comma before the "and" in "and a Flower Maiden"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:33, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Dear Gerda, please excuse me I did not express myself clearly here. The part of this sentence after the "as" is an enumeration of three roles (1) Freia in Das Rheingold, (2) Gerhilde in Die Walküre, and (3) a Flower Maiden in Parsifal. In German and French the items of enumerations are separated by commas except that "and" replaces the comma between the penultimate and the last. The English either follows that same rule or adds the "and" to the comma instead of replacing it, resulting in ", and" (sic) between the penultimate and the last. The comma in that ", and" is called the serial comma or the Oxford comma. For example it is "apples, pears and plums" without the Oxford comma but "apples, pears, and plums" with the Oxford comma.

In the given case you therefore seem to use the Oxford comma, but you just wanted to enhances the clarity by adding this comma ad hoc as the items are not single words. I thought you should be consistent and either use or not use the Oxford comma in all the enumerations of the text. However, it is probably acceptable that you use the Oxford comma only here for clarity as you say. Let it stand as it is. Best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 09:44, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I think that is all that remains to do. Best regards, Johannes Johannes Schade (talk) 17:49, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Still outstanding on 29 September 2023

Deutsche Oper am Rhein (revisited 3rd time)

• Only paragraph, 2nd sentence. ... Eurydike in Gluck's Orpheus und Eurydike ...

I thought we had agreed on Eurydike -> Euridice, but there is still a Eurydike left. Please change it.

done, trying to avoid the repetition --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:14, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Performance in Europe

• Last paragraph, only sentence. Yakar was regarded as a "sculptor of words ... The closing quotation mark is missing.

  done (but can't help thinking that it would have been so much more efficient if you had simply fixed that obvious little thing, instead of you writing a sentence, and I go and search, and change) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:17, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Teaching

• Only paragraph, 2nd sentence. Her students included ... You cite a single student: Patricia Petibon. Your sentence ("with included") appears unsuitable for that case. I would propose "Patricia Petibon was one of her students" or similar.

  done - when I began the sentence, I hoped for more, but found/find no time to search --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:20, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Hopefully this is now all that remains to do. With thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 08:39, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Scene as Poppea

@Gerda Arendt: Thanks for the note :) my thought was that is that the scene belongs in an article about the performance if it's not more relevant to Yakar than "she was in it". theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 22:49, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

You are right, but there is no article about the performance. It would be undue weight in the opera's article, and even for the director. What you see is her acting, and iconic it was. Also, some opera singers can follow a directors inspiration, and others rather not. She could. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:01, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: sure, but at that point, I don't think articles are supposed to be repositories for things that don't belong but maybe could be split later. Also, re: footnote, it's possible that Yakar wasn't matrilineally or culturally Jewish but retains a Jewish last name, as many do. It seems to be OR to attempt to pin Yakar as Jewish by adding a footnote that says she has a "Jewish last name" (really a Hebrew last name). theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:51, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

You don't have to tell me about "Jewish".. Did you see (article history) that no reference to being Jewish were in the article until it was added by someone else? The GA reviewer went on a search and retrieved several references which to include all seemed undue to me, for one word that doesn't change anything about her professional work. (Review done in hospital at times, the most thorough GA review I remember.) Another user inserted plenty of categories. Please take the topic up with them. I seriously don't care. - I think the one line doesn't hurt. She - not the director - is mentioned for the role in the Poppea article. Did you see the video? I didn't dare to put it in the article afraid of licensing issues. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:08, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Well, I suppose if you don't disagree with the change, there's no problem? might take a look at the video later today :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:09, 17 November 2023 (UTC)