Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Failed log/October 2021
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- The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The list was archived by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:26, 17 October 2021 (UTC) [1].[reply]
- Nominator(s): Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 06:43, 24 August 2021 (UTC); SabyaC (talk) 09:12, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured list because Indian football has hardly any Featured things related to clubs. And feel that this has the potential to reach FL. It is the list of foreign players who played for the club. Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 06:43, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I have never seen a list solely for a team's foreign players before. Since the page List of SC East Bengal players already includes a column for nationality, how does this group justify its own page per WP:FLCR #3C? I'm not for or against it at the moment; I just want to hear your thoughts on it. RunningTiger123 (talk) 20:02, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- @RunningTiger123 Indian football isn't that popular. Many Indian players of the previous century don't have articles also. As foreign players are more popular and notable in comparison to domestic, the list was created by my co-nominator in 2018. Later I started the list of all players like other clubs. Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 09:24, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I've never seen any policy to indicate that Indian players would be less notable than foreign players. WP:NFOOTBALL states:
Players who have played, and managers who have managed, in a competitive game between two teams from fully professional leagues will generally be regarded as notable.
This would give equal notability to both Indian and foreign players; nowhere does it state that foreign players are inherently more notable. Again, my concern is that this list would fail FLCR #3C because the group isn't notable on its own and would duplicate information that should be at List of SC East Bengal players (if that page were to be completed). I would suggest talking about this more at WP:FOOTY, since those WikiProject members will have a better understanding of whether or not a page like this is justified. RunningTiger123 (talk) 20:07, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]- I meant to say, not the notability of Indian players, but notability and verifiability of the whole article. And I would like to ask my co-nominator @SabyaC to further comment on this. Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 20:21, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- It is not about the notability of the players but the list is a collective documentation of the foreign players to have played for the club, which in Indian football is a different thing altogether. -SabyaC (talk) 09:13, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you have any source arguing that foreign players are somehow unique in Indian football? Most major teams have had well-known foreign players, but they don't have comparable lists. If there aren't clear sources showing that foreign players as a whole are unique for this team, then the list should just be incorporated into the main list of players, in my opinion. RunningTiger123 (talk) 17:26, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- @RunningTiger123 There aren't enough (or no) sources for Indian players who played in the club in the last century, except a list available in the club website. Here's an example article. It says "Foreign players have been an important part of Indian football’s history. Which overseas stars will light up the ISL this season? Indian football’s story without its foreign players would be incomplete. From Majid Bishkar to Jose Barreto to Iain Hume in the more recent days, several overseas stars have carved a coveted place for themselves in India..." Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 19:31, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you have any source arguing that foreign players are somehow unique in Indian football? Most major teams have had well-known foreign players, but they don't have comparable lists. If there aren't clear sources showing that foreign players as a whole are unique for this team, then the list should just be incorporated into the main list of players, in my opinion. RunningTiger123 (talk) 17:26, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- It is not about the notability of the players but the list is a collective documentation of the foreign players to have played for the club, which in Indian football is a different thing altogether. -SabyaC (talk) 09:13, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I meant to say, not the notability of Indian players, but notability and verifiability of the whole article. And I would like to ask my co-nominator @SabyaC to further comment on this. Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 20:21, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I've never seen any policy to indicate that Indian players would be less notable than foreign players. WP:NFOOTBALL states:
- @RunningTiger123 Indian football isn't that popular. Many Indian players of the previous century don't have articles also. As foreign players are more popular and notable in comparison to domestic, the list was created by my co-nominator in 2018. Later I started the list of all players like other clubs. Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 09:24, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm still not convinced this should be a separate list, but I don't want to hold up this nomination unless others agree with me. I'm going to remain neutral on this nomination. RunningTiger123 (talk) 20:42, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Drive-by comment - the section on "East Bengal players at the FIFA World Cup" should be deleted. As far as I can see, none of these were East Bengal players when they appeared in the World Cup, they simply happen to have joined the club years later (Bernard Mendy didn't play for EB until FIFTEEN YEARS later). This 100% does not belong on this list -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:54, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- @ChrisTheDude Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 17:54, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Procedural note – This list currently has a peer review open. WP:FLC states
"A list should not be listed at featured list candidates and at peer review at the same time."
I'll suggest to close the peer review. Thanks! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 15:17, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]- @Kavyansh.Singh I thought removing the PR template from talkpage closed the PR too... Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 19:23, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- The lead needs to say far more about the foreign players, which is the content of the article. At present the lead just talks generally about the history of the club and then there is one vague sentence about foreign players at the end. The content of the article needs to be properly summarised in the lead.
- Semi-Final is not a proper noun so does not need either of those capital letters
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 19:55, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- "won many Indian Football titles" - football is not a proper noun so does not need a capital letter
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 19:55, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Pre-Independence Era => Pre-independence era
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 19:55, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Not done - era still has a capital E for no reason -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:31, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, now done. Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 06:36, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Not done - era still has a capital E for no reason -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:31, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 19:55, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- "became one of the greatest forwards to play for East Bengal" - according to who?
- Refs at the end of that paragraph are not in the correct numerical order
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 19:55, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Post-Independence Era => Post-independence era
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 06:37, 6 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- In the 50s, during the reign of Pancha Pandavas - who's that? Needs more context/explanation
- A few more Pakistani internationals like Abid Ghazi, Musa, Hassan, etc. - surely those players have more than one name? Write their names in full. Also, don't use "etc" in prose
- "Musa was the top scorer of East Bengal in 1956 and 57" => "Musa was the top scorer of East Bengal in 1956 and 1957"
- "In the 60s and 70s" => "In the 1960s and 1970s"
- "In 1980, the club signed Iranian international Majid Bishkar, regarded as the greatest foreign player to play for East Bengal, who featured for the Iran national team in the 1978 FIFA World Cup alongside two other Iranians Jamshid Nassiri and Mahmood Khabaji" - this is a long and convoluted sentence and could do with being broken up
- "was voted the greatest foreign player to play for East Bengal in 2019." - no need to say that twice
- "a famous 3–1 victory" - POV
- "until this was crossed by Bhaichung Bhutia" - not really relevant
- Steven Alan Prindiville => Steve Prindiville
- "Chima Okorie, and Kelechi Okorie—Chima's younger brother and former AFC Bournemouth and Kenyan international Sammy Omollo" - needs another dash after brother
- "East Bengal signed Kenyan forward Toni Jose Oniyenga[40]—a cousin of Sammy Omollo and" - needs another dash after Omollo
- "only the second foreign goalkeeper to play for the club till date" => "only the second foreign goalkeeper to play for the club"
- "the famous Diamond Derby victory" - POV
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 20:11, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- "snatched a "famous" victory " - POV
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 20:11, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Kingfisher Era => Kingfisher era (also why does this heading include dates but the others did not?)
- Because it was the first time an India club had a corporate sponsor (along with 50% shares in the club). The club saw multiple changes in its structure, basically almost everything changed. That's why its specifically mentioned. Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 20:11, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- "Jackson and Musah formed one of the best defensive pairings in Indian football history" - according to who?
- Photo captions which are not full sentences (eg "Uga Okpara in East Bengal, 2011" do not need full stops)
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 20:11, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Not done - there are still photo captions which are not sentences but have full stops -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:33, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 20:11, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- "the famous 2003 ASEAN Club Championship title" - POV
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 20:03, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- "recruited their third World-Cupper" - should not be in italics. I'm also not convinced that "World-Cupper" is a real word
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 20:03, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- "East Bengal signed their fourth World Cupper" - same again (also, this time the hyphen has vanished)
- "winning the golden-boot" => "winning the Golden Boot"
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 20:03, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- "winning the golden-boot in both the 2014–15 and 2015–16 I-League seasons in 2014" - he won the 2015-16 Golden Boot in 2014? That doesn't make sense.
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 20:03, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- "had previously represented France national U-20 team" => "had previously represented the France national U-20 team"
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 20:03, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- "East Bengal signed their fifth World Cupper" - written a third different way. Still not convinced it's actually a word
- Kolkata Derby is overlinked
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 20:03, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- "former Liverpool legend" - POV
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 20:03, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- "had played for Hamburg SV in the Bundesliga" - the club's actual name is Hamburger SV
- Done Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 20:11, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- "Danny Fox became the third foreign player to be announced officially" - as opposed to being announced unofficially?
- "The list of all foreign players who have played for East Bengal as below" => "The list of all foreign players who have played for East Bengal is as below"
- The refs after that line are not in numerical order
- "Season Joined" => "Season joined" (in every table)
- Refs against Niaz Ahmed are not in order
- Footnote against Balai Dey refers to a different player
- Steven Alan Prindiville => Steve Prindiville (again)
- Refs against two 1991-92 players are not in order
- Refs against Paolo Da Silva are not in order
- Refs against Marcos Secco are not in order
- And Edmilson
- Why is Calum Woods the only player whose ref is only in a footnote?
- "Players by Nationality" => "Players by nationality"
- That table looks odd with the total centred but the numbers on the rows not centred
- "Aniweta player was born" => "Aniweta was born"
- Notes a and b just use the player's surname and don't wikilink the name. Notes c and d use the whole name and link it. Do them all the same way.
- Don't show the "names" of authors in the refs that aren't an actual person eg "BBC Media", "Football NSW"
- Ref 5 is some random person's Wordpress site and ref 6 is some random person's blog. These are not reliable sources.
- Ref 13 lists no publisher
- In the refs, you have the same publisher shown as goal.com, Goal.com, and just Goal. Pick one and use it throughout.
- Ref 104 is also someone's Wordpress site
- Ref 105 lists no publisher
- You also have both indianfootball.de and www.indianfootball.de, as well as both Sportskeeda and www.sportskeeda.com and both Scroll and scroll.in
- That's what I got so far -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:41, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Accessibility review (MOS:DTAB)
- The headers of tables need to have colscopes, e.g. `! No.` should be `! scope=col | No.`. This along with rowscopes helps screen reader software accurately read out the cells of the table.
- The first/primary cell of each row needs rowscopes, e.g. `|1` should be `!scope=row |1`. This changes the background color of the primary cells; if you don't like it, change the top line of the table from `{|class="wikitable"` to `{|class="wikitable plainrowheaders"`
- Tables need captions, e.g. `|+ caption_text` at the top of the table, (or `|+ {{sronly|caption_text}}` to make it only for screen reader software if the caption would duplicate a nearby section header). Captions let screen reader software jump straight to a named table without having to read out all the text before it first. --PresN 14:03, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose – Sorry, but I see this list as a violation of FL criterion 3c. The foreign players could easily be included in the main SC East Bengal players list once it is fleshed out, and don't need a separate article dedicated to them. We'd basically be sending the message that each soccer team should have separate lists for domestic and foreign players, and I don't like the precedent that would be set. Giants2008 (Talk) 21:28, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- @Giants2008 But, the problem is there aren't enough sources for the list of all players. Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 18:51, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose - I also see this as a 3c violation. Inability to find sources for the domestic players isn't enough of a reason to split out the foreign players into their own list. You would need to demonstrate why "foreign players for SC East Bengal" is a notable subject on its own separate from "players for SC East Bengal", and I'm not seeing it, I'm only seeing that it was easier editorially to split them. Given that RunningTiger123 was expressing the same concern 2 months ago (though they held back from formally opposing), and 2/3 of the coordinators for FLC are in opposition, I'm going to go ahead and close this nomination. I'm not going to nominate the list for deletion at this time, but I do not feel that it should exist. --PresN 14:39, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- @Giants2008 But, the problem is there aren't enough sources for the list of all players. Saha ❯❯❯ Stay safe 18:51, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.