Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Failed log/October 2011

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by The Rambling Man 10:40, 12 November 2011 [1].

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List of Japan women ODI cricketers

Nominator(s): Harrias ^talk 17:26, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Another list of women cricketers, modelled from List of South Africa women ODI cricketers and other current FLCs. A reasonably short list, it is unlikely that Japan will play any further ODIs in the near future, so it will remain stable for the foreseeable future. As always, all comments and suggestions are welcome. Harrias ^talk 17:26, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Oppose (sorry.. see my fifth point below)

• Would put ICC in parentheses after the full name since it's used in ref 4 as ICC.
• Don't you think you should be consistent with the use of One Day.. vs One-Day (refs...)?
• No image at all, nothing even tenuously related to this list?
• "Japan in One Day International cricket." why suddenly expand ODI again?
• Actually, now I'm looking in more detail, this is probably a 3b fail, the Japanese women have only ever played ODI cricket, and that should be covered in Japan national women's cricket team which is barely a stub....
• Question that affects probably all of these lists... if someone doesn't bowl, their bowling stats are represented as en-dashes. But surely that same logic should be applied to wicket-keepers? Would we expect someone who isn't a wickie to be able to stump someone?

The Rambling Man (talk) 18:36, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

With regards to criterium 3b, I suspect you have a fair point. I'd like a little time to look into their recent appearances in the East Asia-Pacific Women's Cricket Challenge / Trophy and their upcoming matches in the ICC Women's World Cup Qualifying Series. Although none of these matches will have ODI status, they still provide part of the history of Japanese women's cricket for the main article. Even given this though, I suspect this list would be better as part of that article. I will nevertheless address your other points, and would invite any others, as even if it does get merged into that article, it'd be nice if it could be of high a quality as possible! Harrias ^talk 20:33, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Due to the 3b failure, I would like to withdraw the article from FLC. Thank you! Harrias ^talk 20:44, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Giants2008 00:22, 29 October 2011 [2].

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2000s European sovereign debt crisis timeline

Nominator(s): – Plarem ^{(User talk contribs)} 14:10, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because I feel that the article features professional standards of writing, it has an engaging lead that introduces the subject and defines the scope and inclusion criteria, it comprehensively covers the defined scope, providing at least all of the major items and, where practical, a complete set of items; where appropriate, it has annotations that provide useful and appropriate information about the items, in length and/or topic, it meets all of the requirements for stand-alone lists; does not violate the content-forking guideline, does not largely duplicate material from another article, and could not reasonably be included as part of a related article, it is easy to navigate and includes, where helpful, section headings and table sort facilities, it complies with the Manual of Style and its supplementary pages, it makes suitable use of text layout, formatting, tables, and colour; and a minimal proportion of items are redlinked, it has images and other media, if appropriate to the topic, that follow Wikipedia's usage policies, with succinct captions, non-free images and other media satisfy the criteria for the inclusion of non-free content and are labeled accordingly and It is not the subject of ongoing edit wars and its content does not change significantly from day to day, except in response to the featured list process. – Plarem ^{(User talk contribs)} 14:10, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose several in-line citations are missing, especially in the 2011 section; this is a major issue. Inconsistency ("€4.8 bn" or "€5bn"? What is "bn"?), incomplete sentences/ellipses ("Protests, yearly taking place for the day, this year add "the proposed austerity measures", in Athens."), some refs don't use the {{cite web}}/{{cite news}} templates, etc. You said it passes MOS; how you explain these edits I made?--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫_Hey^{it's me} 21:09, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose several major issues with the article, the most severe being the lack of inline references in parts of the list. I am also concerned that the issue is by no means over and that the list would be inherently unstable. Other issues include:
  • Images should all be on the right side to avoid messing up the page. Images are being placed behind text in the references section and are being sandwiched elsewhere. While images of central political figures and demonstrations are fine, including various logos and banknotes gives a messy look.

 Done, deleted logos and banknotes, kept political figures and demonstrations. – Plarem ^{(User talk contribs)} 10:19, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

• • The prose needs clean-up. For instance, there is a difference between a hyphen and a minus sign. Avoid use of "Mr", just use the surname; titles in front of names are capitalized. Avoid weasel words, such as "huge". In general the text is written with tabloid-slanted language (fear, speculations, hopes, etc), which are not encyclopedic terms. Acronyms need to be spelled out at first-time use. Arsenikk ^(talk) 10:47, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose I would expect to see references for each of the events in this timeline. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:32, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Giants2008 21:17, 14 October 2011 [3].

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List of athletes from Montana

Nominator(s): PumpkinSky talk 13:45, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because I want the lists of Montanans to be as good as possible. Thanks for the reviews. PumpkinSky talk 13:45, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:19, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Oppose – Love the idea of this list, but there's way too much uncited content at the present time. A lot of work needs to be done here before this will be ready for the star. "Phil Jackson is a basketball player and coach who is considered one of the Top 10 Coaches in National Basketball Association History." I would change "who is considered" to "who has been voted" to take away attribution concerns that come with the word "considered" (by whom is always the question). It also helps the capitalization make more sense. The table notes contain something like this as well. Done. Don't see any reason why Rodeo should be capitalized in the next sentence. Done. Remove space before reference 11. Done. No need to link Pro Bowl twice in the lead. Done. "He was the first soccer-style kicker in the NFL and elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1991." Add another "was" before "elected" and remove the repeat Hall of Fame link. Done. One example of entries not fully backed up by sources is Bill Wilkinson in the baseball section. The notes say that he "Lived in Great Falls during his mid-teens", but the ref doesn't back that up. Baseball-Reference lists Wilkinson as having lived in Wyoming and Colorado, but I don't see Great Falls, Montana anywhere. cut, moved to talk page. Vedie Himsl: Source only mentions one year as a manager, not everything else he did (playing, coaching, scouting). Added two sources to list and article. For Les Rohr, the source doesn't prove that he "Moved to Montana when very young", though it does verify that he attended high school there. Added official site covering that. Basketball: Robin Selvig has spare brackets after "Coach" in the notes. Fixed. Football: The ref on Jerry Kramer was an interesting video, but I don't recall seeing that he was born in Montana in it. Pro Football Reference probably has it covered, so a second ref for that entry is worthwhile. That will take care of those honors listed as well. Done. Kramer's note should probably say "ranked number one player not in the Hall of Fame by the NFL Network" for attribution purposes. Done. Bobby Petrino: "collegiate head coach University of Louisville...". Needs a word or two after "coach". Done. The source for Jan Stenerud says skiing scholarship, not ski jumping scholarship. It may well have been a ski jumping scholarship, but if so another source is needed to prove that. Done. Jim Sweeney: The source for him says nothing about Jan Stenerud. A space would be nice before the parenthetical (MSU), but this is a secondary issue. Done, both. Rodeo: For Bill Linderman, the source doesn't give his accolades, nor does it really verify his birth place (it just says his parents were from there). If you look at the article, you should find other sources that contain the information needing citation here. Done. Dan Mortensen: The source doesn't verify his membership in the ProRodeo Hall of Fame. Done. Other athletes: The Alice Ritzman bio from the LPGA doesn't give her birth place, though it does say she's from the state. Tweaked entry, added ref. The Leslie Spaulding source says she resides in Billings, not Bozeman. She lived in both, Billings til about 2004 and then at Bozeman while coaching 2007-2011. Just updated list and article, with refs. As a general note, how many of these lifespans are backed up in the sources? Going back to Linderman for a second, it's impossible for the ref to cover it because it came from before he died. I'd be interested to see how many are actually backed up and how many were taken from articles here. For the major sports a stat site would have the birth/death dates covered, but for minor sports like rodeo attention needs to be paid to this factor. I've updated everything you've found and will keep looking on my own in case you missed some. In ref 105, Sher Dog should be Sherdog. Done. What makes Inside Pittsburgh Pirates (ref 22), Mpora Pure Action Sports (ref 104), and North Face (ref 107) reliable sources? Tanner Hall (mpora ref) cut and moved to talk page, North Face (re Nikki Kimall) is a highly reputable outdoor equipment firm and if the North Face ref isn't enough there's this one, replace the IPP one with his baseball reference managerial one. Note that I didn't check every single source, so it's possible that I didn't catch all of the issues. In fact, I likely didn't, which worries me. What else is uncited in the various columns? A retortical question with slightly dark undertones in its asking. I've updated everything you've found and will keep looking on my own in case you missed some. I'm still new at this. I'll fix everything everyone finds or remove it to the talk page for future research. PumpkinSky talk 00:56, 22 August 2011 (UTC) Giants2008 (27 and counting) 19:49, 20 August 2011 (UTC) That was meant to catch the attention of the FLC community so that someone else will spot-check the list. We don't have nearly enough of that happening here, and I hope this effort is undertaken with this list. I'm sure you don't want any problems remaining in the list either. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:19, 23 August 2011 (UTC) If that was the goal, no problem. I want the list to be as good as possible. PumpkinSky talk 21:46, 23 August 2011 (UTC) Two more comments upon checking the changes: in ref 101, the publisher shouldn't have a space between Pro and Rodeo (atypical, I know), and in ref 128, a publisher is needed. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:19, 23 August 2011 (UTC) Fixed. PumpkinSky talk 21:46, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Albacore (talk) 19:58, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

;Comments from Albacore (talk) I'll do a spot-check on all entries. Baseball Jeff Ballard's ref doesn't say he currently lives in Billings, or that he was raised in Billings; only he was born in Billings and attended high school there. Fixed stmt. John Gibbons ref doesn't say he was raised in Great Falls Fixed stmt. Neither refs for Rob Johnson say he was raised in Whitehall. Cut that part. Wrestling Looks good. Other athletes Please provide a quote for ref 111, because I don't see where it says Anker lives in Bozeman, or was born in 1963, but the article is large, and I could have missed it. Added ref, see note at bottom of article. What makes this a reliable reference? See upper right, Official Montana Website, Department of Tourism. If it is reliable, Eric Bergoust's entry doesn't reference his birth year or that Bergoust competed in the 1994, 2002, or 2006 Olympics Added ref. Where does it say in Scott Davis's ref that he is a two-time U.S. Champion? Added ref. A quote parameter would be useful in ref 115; skimmed the article and didn't see his birth year or the Butte connection. Added two refs. In Johnson's ref I couldn't find the Raised in Missoula connection. Added ref. Kimball's ref maybe a quote param for the Lives in Bozeman; I skimmed the article and couldn't find a connection. Added ref. Birth year and Butte connection missing for Leipheimer Added ref. Petkevich's ref makes me question the reliability of montanakids.com; it states he was born in 1950, and lists Wikipedia as a source; Raised in Great Falls I'd change to born in Minneapolis per the sports reference reference. MontanaKids is an official Montana website, Dept of Tourism. Yes they goofed the year but the rest is very accurate. NYT makes errors too, would you ban them from wiki? And saying they used wiki as one of their refs is like manufacturing dogfood but not feeding it to your own dog. MTKids also lists Sports Illustrated as a ref so are you saying we can't use SI too? Listing Minneapolis does not establish a MT connection. Fine. Albacore (talk) 17:50, 25 August 2011 (UTC) Both Ritzman's refs don't ref birth year There are many refs saying she was born in 1952, but I'm not sure which one would meet FL standards. I'd appreciate some help here. this book, page 153, should work. Albacore (talk) 17:50, 25 August 2011 (UTC) Added, thanks. RMV [123] from Schmidt's entry; remove "ever" from quote. Cut "ever", ref numbers have changed, I'm guessing you want Ski Channel removed? No, Ski Channel is fine. Ref 123 (Ritzmans) was on Schmidt's summary, but now fixed. Albacore (talk) 17:50, 25 August 2011 (UTC) Wigger's ref, where does it mention his birth or Great Falls connection? Added ref. I'll check the other sections later. Albacore (talk) 14:16, 24 August 2011 (UTC) Boxing As a wiki Boxrec is not a reliable source Changed to a good ref. Basketball Ref 57 is the same as ref 56, same URL. Another source should be provided. Fixed. Also, I emailed Montana Kids and told them to fix their site on Petkevich. PumpkinSky talk 00:04, 26 August 2011 (UTC) They have fixed it already, not bad huh? Go Team Montana Go! PumpkinSky talk 17:36, 26 August 2011 (UTC) Rodeo Linderman's death year isn't mentioned in the refs Added ref. Mortensen's birth year not mentioned in the refs. Added ref. American football If you could change the title to "Gridiron football" or "American football" and move it accordingly, that would be nice, to be more specific. Changed to gridiron football as it's more encompassing and would include the guys who played in Canada, which is slightly diffrent version Tilleman's ref doesn't say he lives in Harve Added ref Sweeney's birth year or place isn't mentioned, overall record isn't mentioned, and the years he spent at MSU aren't mentioned. Added two refs. Added ref for year and place born. The ref "big kick out of..." mentions his coaching at MSU (the one that ties him to Stenerud), but added two refs anyway Petrino's ref is missing everything except the "University of Arkansas (2008–present)" part Added two refs. Salonen's ref doesn't say he was raised in Great Falls. Added ref. O'Billovich: "Born in Butte; attended college in Missoula" is unreferenced. ...defensive back and quarterback (1984–1985). Do you mean 1964–1965? He'd be 44 years old playing in the CFL... If it is 1964, than his end year of pro football is unreferenced, and the head coach years need to be arranged properly. Fixed. Changed "born" to "attended high school" though it seems clear he was born there too. Friesz's CFHOF needs a reference Added ref. Ref 73 doesn't say FitzSimmons was raised in Chester Added ref. Dorsch's ref doesn't say he attended high school in Bozeman, only that he was born there. Added ref. Donovan's ref doesn't say he went to HS in Helena, only that he was born there. Added ref. Dickenson's birth year is missing, as well as his Montana connection and his QB years 1997–2008 Added three refs. Albacore (talk) 14:31, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support. Albacore (talk) 19:58, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 18:37, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments Does the lead image have alt text? Does now. Where are the state nicknames referenced? Added two refs. "Montanans participate in a wide variety of sports including: baseball, basketball, boxing, cycling, football, golf, rodeo, figure skating, skiing, and wrestling." reads very odd to me, Montanans like all other citizens of the world could play any sport, not just the ones you've listed. True, should I add more sports or delete the line entirely? I've never been quite sure what to do on this one. Be either more generalist by explaining the purpose of the list, e.g. "A number of Montanans have become notable for their involvement in ..." or remove it. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:02, 28 August 2011 (UTC) Went with the first option. Refs should be Ref(s) as some are singular. Fixed. If you wish to abbreviate NFL in the lead then use it abbreviated thereafter. I think I'd like to leave as is if it's okay. Tables cols should be same width from section to section. They are. I think the photos might be making them look diff. I may need help if further tweaking is needed. Is this a written requirement or just a personal perference? I don't think it makes the list less esthetically appealing. No written requirement but no reason to have differently formatted tables from section to section. It's probably, as you say, down to the photos. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:47, 28 August 2011 (UTC) So it's a personal pref that's in fact a defacto requirement? You also didn't answer this "True, should I add more sports or delete the line entirely? I've never been quite sure what to do on this one." (see a few items above) No, not a "de facto requirement". I'm just a reviewer saying that stylistically it would be preferable. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:02, 28 August 2011 (UTC) I don't know how to fix. I'll have to try to figure it out. Need a bit of time on this. I went to one of my "table fixing people". Width of each section's table is now the same. Thanks for looking at my list. In refs, staff isn't a proper noun so should just be staff, not Staff. Fixed. Only external link that isn't a major advert site is Montana's historical society. The rest look garbage. Cut the three. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:08, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Comments

1. As a proponent of British English I find the use of "athletes" in the title to be misleading, though of course I understand the use of AmE for an obviously US-related article. There are other articles that use "sportspeople" instead, so List of sportspeople from Montana might be an alternative to discuss.

• • I think it better to stay with AmE for an US article. Sportspeople is not something heard here much at all. In fact, I don't know anyone that uses. I can't even remember it being used. Athletes is the norm in the US.
    • I think other lists of US athletes are similarly titled. I favor the AmE version, whatever it is. Sometimes "sports figures" is used, but I don't think it's WP's lingo. -- Montanabw
      • Astute observation by Mike Cline: "the two most prominent british sportspeople I can think of Eric Liddell and Harold Abrahams are refered to as athletes" ??????

• I did a search on Wikpedia for the word "sportspeople" and the word "athletes" and there seems to be no consensus around the world for preferring either term. In the United States, there is also no consensus use in article titles, although "athletes" seems to be far preferred. My sense would be to go with "athletes," as that is not only the local terminology but is the preferred term in articles and lists about American people participating in sports (HAH!). - Tim1965 (talk) 00:22, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Robin Selvig appears to be a coach and not a player, thus the term "athlete" does not necessarily apply. violet/riga _^[talk] 21:50, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Self-correction: he is one of a few that once played but are possibly only notable for their coaching career. violet/riga _^[talk] 21:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

I think coaches can "count" -- they are, inherently, atheletes first, as a rule. Montanabw^(talk) 23:39, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps, but the bottom line is 1) wiki has no firm rule on this, 2) US English virtually never uses "sportspeople" and trying to force that would like Yanks trying to get "whilst" replaced with "while" used in an article about Britain, adn 3) TRM reviewed this, is a Brit, and didn't mention this as being an issue.

I haven't said that it's an issue - I said that it's "an alternative to discuss". violet/riga _^[talk] 22:21, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for clarifying.

1. The first paragraph details aspects of Montana that I would not say are related, such as the nicknames and the economy breakdown.

• • Hmm. Not directly related but fills in what Montana is. See next item too.

• This might be relevant, if somehow the point could be made that a small-population state with poor economy cannot sustain either major league teams, major league collegiate or high school sports, and provides little opportunity for in-state professional athletics. If such could be found. (I doubt anyone makes such an explicit argument, however.) - Tim1965 (talk) 00:22, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

1. Are any Montana teams famous? Were there any important sporting events in Montana's history? Perhaps these could be included instead of the above.

• • No. Montana is WAAAY too small in population to have ever had a major league sports franchise. As for events, not that I can think of. I'll ask around though. This is part of the reason I added the stuff in the item immediately above.PumpkinSky talk 20:39, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
    • We export our finest, sad to say, although our college football teams have won several national championships in their various divisions (UM and MSU are usually placed in a division one step down from the biggest schools, Carroll College is something like 5 or 6 times champion in the NAIA group of smaller schools) But here, it's the PEOPLE we are listing. No real famous sports teams/events, our biggest community is just a bit over 100,000 people in the metro area and the whole state is still under population of 1 million. We've hosted the AERC national Endurance race and used to host the College National Finals Rodeo, but that's about it. Montanabw^(talk) 21:37, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

• There have been isolated famous sporting events. Todd Foster made his professional boxing debut in Montana. The Jack Dempsey vs. Tommy Gibbons title boxing fight was held in the state in 1923. But such events would need to be tied to people from Montana, not mentioned in and of themselves (as was pointed out above). - Tim1965 (talk) 00:22, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

violet/riga _^[talk] 16:50, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: I'm not sure if I'm a fan of the limetime section for each column. That can be found by clicking the person, and it doesn't seem to add anything to the article currently. If it's too much to remove it then that's fine, and others may disagree with my opinion. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 03:25, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Since no one has mentioned this and I've seen other lists with lifetime sections, I'm guessing most people don't have a problem with it. Though I can't say that for sure. What percentage of people lists has a lifetime (birth-death) section? PumpkinSky talk 10:10, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. I haven't seen many of these more general type lists come through, so I don't have much to compare it to. I'll support since others are fine with it, even though it still strikes me as a bit odd. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 16:12, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

• Comment The list itself is fantastic, but Montana's national parks, nicknames, and mountains are completely irrelevant. Link to Montana and get right into the athletes. Also, have an athlete-related photo a the top, not the location of the state. Also, don't use the table title function because you already have section titles. Reywas92^Talk 22:32, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Glad you like the list. As for "parks, mountains, nicknames" I can see trimming this down but I don't think it should totally removed because 1) most people would be "WTF is Montana?" and 2) Rambling Man thought it was important enough for me to add refs so I can't satisfy both his request and yours as they are inherently contradictory and it would make the lead rather short. The table title function is required by WP:ACCESS (Killervogel5 can explain this in detail). As Montana is a cowboy state I've put the rodeo clown photo at the top along with the map. You're the first to mention the map and I think it's important to keep it as even most Americans can't find Montana on a map.PumpkinSky talk 23:27, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

That's why the article should link to Montana. There are dozens of other articles relating to the state, and just because people might not know much about it doesn't mean that this should just copy the first paragraph of it. The lead should contain information about Montana's athletes not its geography, which is irrelevant here. Again, if someone doesn't know where Montana is they can follow the link to the main article; the map here is unnecessary. Reywas92^Talk 17:12, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

It does link to Montana, the very first word. You're the only one to object to the first para, which I cut a bit from yesterday, and the only one to object to the map. TRM even liked the first para, asking for more refs even. I can't please him and please you on this. Since you're the only one to object to this so far, I'm leaving it in for now. And again, cutting it would raise the ire of those wanting more than one para. This is one reason I'm disenchanted with the featured process on wiki. Different want different things, so reviews are not standard and you get contradictory desires from reviewers. This is nuts.PumpkinSky talk 17:41, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't see a problem introducing a little of the history etc of the state. I know zero about Montana so that kind of background is welcome to me. And we only have to wait until para two before we get to athletes. And given this is no doubt part of a series, I can see the intro being an important and consistent start to all other similar lists. All good in the hood. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:01, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

MOS:BEGIN. Define the topic. Get to the point. By reading the current first paragraph, I still have no idea what's included in the list. You should not be going on about the state, you should get straight to the athetes. Don't know about Montana? That's what wikilinks are for. Go to List of Governors of Montana. Know zero about Montana? There's a handy link in the first sentence. I shouldn't be told about the state's geography if I'm reading an article about its politics, or in this case athletes. At the very least, DON'T copy the lead of Montana verbatim! Unrelated: Template:Dynamic list should be placed right above the list, not at the very top of the article. There should not be a header 'Athletes' because we already know that from the title; start with the first sport. Reywas92^Talk 03:42, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

More disagreements about what to do in a FL. Unreal. One person tells me to the dynamic blurb in one spot, in another I'm told to place it in a different spot. Unreal. You guys really need to get on the same wavelength. It seems to me you're merely trying to push your personal view of what a FL should more than what is actually required. I'm sick of getting contradictory reviews.PumpkinSky talk 11:40, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Part of the FL process is learning to balance what reviewers want. FLC is not a one-reviewer process like GAN. Not every reviewer sees or wants the same thing. If you are asked for something and another reviewer has already asked for it to be changed, just say that and move on, or, if the other reviewer insists, ask for a reason and then perhaps draw the initial reviewer back to the discussion to get multiple opinions. Don't think of the reviews as contradictory (even though they may be); just treat it as a learning process. Me personally, I'm OK with the lead, and I agree with TRM. A little bit of introduction to what Montana is before expounding on the specific scope of the list hurts nobody, especially because not all en-Wiki readers are from the U.S. The reference to MOS:BEGIN is appropriate, because it states, in part: "It should establish the context in which the topic is being considered by supplying the set of circumstances or facts that surround it". In this case, it establishes the context of the topic (Montanan athletes) by supplying facts that surround it (information about Montana). Every state is unique and has factors that contribute to the articles (for example, you're much more likely to find mountain climbers in Montana than Missouri, just as you would be more likely to find sailors in Florida than in Colorado). — KV5 • Talk • 12:11, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Well stated, KV5. I've removed the "athletes" section header. PumpkinSky talk 13:52, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

No sorry, I totally disagree with the inclusion of irrelevant content in the first paragraph. The nicknames and slogans, for example, have absolutely no link to sport and should not be included. I would scrap the whole of the first paragraph. violet/riga _^[talk] 14:52, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Well that's why this debate is useful because there's clearly no policy or guideline that should have it removed (as explained above by KV5 with respect to MOS:BEGIN in particular) so it's just personal taste at that point. And that's usually governed by consensus, so I guess if two out of five are definitely opposed while three are definitely unopposed, the status quo, for the time being, should remain. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:09, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

It's not just down to votes for and votes against, it's about what makes sense and the consensual decision. I see no link whatsoever between the topic and the nickname of Montana - you may as well start defining "sport" there as well. violet/riga _^[talk] 16:19, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I think it's fair to say that unless you area aware of "Montana", a list of athletes from there is somewhat context-less. Where is Montana? I haven't a clue other than somewhere in the US. What's the big deal about the state? Whatever. It's worthwhile remembering we have an international audience, not an American one. English speakers will generally know what "sport" means but many may not know what "Montana" is all about, your argument is made of straw. And yes, vote counting isn't the way to judge consensus but there are clearly two positions here, both argued well and there are more in favour of the status quo than not. Currently. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:35, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

It's not a strawman, it's analogous - your writing is generally quite well-worded and neutral but that bit comes off as a little rude. So...

• If you don't know what "Montana" is then why would you be looking at a list of people from Montana?

• I don't know about TRM, but for me, curiosity. Three-fourths of the articles I look at on wiki are things I am not familiar with because I like learning new things, simple curiosity.PumpkinSky talk 18:35, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• Indeed, which is why I believe that people wanting to know more about Montana would follow the relevant link rather than read some, honestly, not very interesting information about the place at the start of a sports article. violet/riga _^[talk] 19:04, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• How does knowing that it is nicknamed "Big Sky Country" help?
• Why not focus more on the demographic (and other) details that directly influence the sporting life of people?
• Is it landlocked?

• the map shows that, another reason to include the mapPumpkinSky talk 18:35, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• Further, are there rivers/lakes that are used for sporting events? violet/riga _^[talk] 19:04, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• Can you ski on the mountains?

• naturallyPumpkinSky talk 18:35, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• You can't ski on all mountains, and they don't all have resorts. Detailing this would be relevant as it is a sport. violet/riga _^[talk] 19:04, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• Do most of the listed players compete within Montana, elsewhere in the US, or in other countries?

• fairly well explained by the notesPumpkinSky talk 18:35, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• But also relevant to the lead. There could be an introduction saying that many play outside of Montana because of the lack of professional leagues/teams/venues/whatever. violet/riga _^[talk] 19:04, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• How come the list is not only about athletes (if you want to talk about non-AmE)?

There are lots of other things that would fit in far better. violet/riga _^[talk] 18:30, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

My final note here before I withdraw and watch is that this list is an intersection. An intersection of notable athletes, and Montana. So what's the harm in a casual reader learning a bit about both in the lead? Where's the harm? The Rambling Man (talk) 16:43, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

There is no harm whatsoever, it is only helpful.PumpkinSky talk 17:20, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

• WITHDRAWN Thanks all, but this has been a complete waste of my time. I won't be submitting any more featured anythings.PumpkinSky talk 19:39, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
  • At TRM's request I'll leave this open but right now I've lost all desire to participate.PumpkinSky talk 19:46, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

It's a shame that you've just done this - as you say at the top of this FLC "I want [this article] to be as good as possible". I have had a go at reworking the lead to show you what I believe it should be like. I think it works rather well now but will need a few more citations. You may disagree with the changes, but hopefully you will see it as an improvement. violet/riga _^[talk] 20:19, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Several problems with the "new" lead, including a one-sentence paragraph and information that doesn't fall within the scope of the list. It's a list of notable athletes from Montana. If this team of Native American women isn't even notable enough for an article on the team, much less the players (all other entries are notable singular people), then it doesn't belong in this list and thus shouldn't be in the lead, which is a summary of the same. There's also some fluff to be trimmed (like "and is in fact doubly-landlocked" - in fact is fluff, and what does "doubly-landlocked" even mean?), and U.S. usage is most definitely "sports", not "sport". References are definitely needed for the new information (I don't know if some of it was previously excluded due to lack of references, which would disappoint me). Don't hate it, don't love it. I was fine with it before, and if the above is fixed, I'd be fine with it after. It's six of one to me. — KV5 • Talk • 21:48, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Since these Native American women are not individually identifiable they cannot be added to the list. That doesn't mean that their achievement isn't relevant. Further, if it's relevant enough for the Montana article then I'd have to say it merits inclusion on this one. If you don't know what "doubly-landlocked" means then that's down to a gap in your knowledge and to dismiss it as "fluff" is a little odd. Being doubly-landlocked reduces the likelihood of any the people being adept at water sports, thus being worthy of inclusion (though perhaps with more of an explanation). Certainly far more relevant than the nicknames of the state. violet/riga _^[talk] 21:59, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

To dismiss above comments by TRM as rude and then come back with that strikes me as a pot and kettle problem. Regardless, I understand the concept of "landlocked", and I didn't call "doubly-landlocked" fluff, I said that the words "in fact" are fluff - they add nothing to the encyclopedic value of this list. That being said, the achievement of the Native American women may be relevant to the subject matter of the list, but if they cannot be included in the list, then they cannot be included in the lead, as the lead is a summary of the list's contents. — KV5 • Talk • 22:16, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I responded to you in the manner that you initiated discussions but really can't see what I said as being particularly rude. Anyway... How can you say that the athletic achievements of these Native American people from Montana should not be part of the article yet accept (to use your word) the fluff that was there previously? As for the use of "in fact", well that can easily be changed and if you can reword that sentence then be my guest. violet/riga _^[talk] 22:57, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Um, ok, perhaps you're misunderstanding me. First you say that I "accept the fluff", then you say that "in fact"—the only fluff to which I referred, although there may be other unneeded verbiage at which I have not closely looked—can be changed. I didn't accept any fluff, so I think you're misconstruing me a bit there. That being said, I stand by my original statement, especially: "References are definitely needed for the new information... I was fine with it before, and if the above is fixed, I'd be fine with it after". — KV5 • Talk • 23:20, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

As stated I was reusing and reapplying your word, not saying that you called other parts fluff. violet/riga _^[talk] 06:19, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

If I could comment, I prefer my lead from this diff. Albacore (talk) 00:49, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I know I'm late to the party but I just want to give my two cents. I really think the lead is too much. I've found that FLC in general prefers ornate leads, but this one violates the astonish principle and our general concept of leads, which is to give the user an overall impression of the article quickly. Our article on Barack Obama mentions his presidency first and his "background" second. I would expect something similar here. —Designate (talk) 18:20, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

What do you expect when people are arguing in favor of leads with single-sentence unref'd paragraphs over the original lead or the KV5 version?PumpkinSky talk 18:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Mature discussion leading to consensus and an improvement of the article? violet/riga _^[talk] 19:21, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

single-sentence unref'd paragraphs in the lead are not improvements, not in any featured wiki process.PumpkinSky talk 19:24, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I have pretty much no interest in this article and merely contributed to this process on request. The whole point of a collaborative encyclopaedia is that someone can add something and then someone can improve it. I made improvements to the lead and specifically said that part of it needed looking at further. I could have sat back and just said oppose but I take the view that people should help to improve things. Sadly you don't seem to want to go through this process properly, so I guess the nomination will just fail. violet/riga _^[talk] 20:04, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I gave up caring about wiki featured processes long, I just don't care and have been waiting for the FLC people to kill it.PumpkinSky talk 20:08, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

And the "FLC people" are looking to see how this discussion pans out. I may move to close this FLC out and start a general discussion on WT:FLC as this is clearly an area for debate. We need to understand that our "lead" may not be the same as an article "lead" because we may not be expanding on items in the lead as per the normal WP:LEAD instructions. A list is a different beast, where a decent interesting lead is not a bad thing, even if it doesn't get expanded later. I can see this is a conflict with current MOS though so that's a problem. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:29, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

good point, and it's a real shame that this issue has torpedoed what in all other aspects is a superb list and also totally soured me on all wiki featured processes.PumpkinSky talk 20:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by The Rambling Man 17:45, 10 October 2011 [4].

---

Nightwish discography

Nominator(s): Rodrigo18 (talk) 21:51, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because i believe i've solved all the problems cited in this last nomination; if there's any other problem i'd be happy to solvei it too. Rodrigo18 (talk) 21:51, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Oppose based on the speed I was able to find problems with the page.

• The very first thing I did happened to be a click on the EPs link in the box on the right, but the link doesn't work. Done Repared
• The infobox at right claims 1 EP, the lede says there're two. When I scroll to the table it shows 1. Done Repared
• Similar discrepancies for compilations.  Done also repared
• In the lede "finnish" should be "Finnish".  Done changed
• Lede: "The band wormed"?! I can't guess what this is supposed to be.  Done sorry, i meant "formed"
• Lede: "Tarja" should be the musician's family name.  Done changed to "Turunen"
• Lede: The 1st sentence of the 2nd graph is a long run-on thing with misused commas.  Done I tried to change a few commas, hope it's ok now.

• Sentence is now no longer a real sentence and doesn't make sense. Nightwish is also misspelled. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 14:59, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

• In "1998, 2000 and 2002 respectively", add a comma after "2002". And "Nightwish" is still misspelled, as noted above by myself and below by Greatorangepumpkin. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 01:37, 18 September 2011 (UTC)  Done i added the coma and i corrected "Nightwish"

• Lede: Revise "1 million copies" and similar to "one million copies" and similar.  Done decided to use only words

• Now search for "2 million copies" and similar (but see my New issues below). — JohnFromPinckney(talk) 14:59, 14 September 2011 (UTC)  Done no more similar problems

• Lede: Comma needed after "October 6, 2007".  Done i added the comma
• Lede: No dots required in "E.P./live album". And what is that, anyway? Isn't it just a live EP?  Done changed to "live album"
• Lede: "third-best-selling band and the third-best-selling musical entity in Finland" wholly unsupported by ref provided. Even the "827,000 certified copies" isn't easy to verify; did you get that figure by adding up numbers on the Musiikkituottajat - Tilastot page?  Done i erased this paragraph since i couldn't get any reliabe source for it.
• Lede: Period needed at the end.
• The tables are inconsistent with each other and not consistent with current styling and accessibility guidelines. Please see WP:DISCOGSTYLE.

Look, what exactly do you mean here, cause i don't see any inconsistence about the rules.Rodrigo18 (talk) 09:59, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

• It's unfortunately not clear yet whether we can call them rules, but I do know recent FLs have been geared to conform with WP:DISCOGSTYLE, not least because WP:DISCOGSTYLE tries to incorporate better conformance to WP:ACCESS, which intersects with the MOS, required for FLs.

In particular:

• Similar columns in separate, similar tables should be the same width. In Nightwish discography they appear to vary wildly.  Done see below
• Even just the column headings are capitalized differently.  Done See below.
• The country labels for the peaks should be in alpha order, following the home country (here, FIN).  Done i put FIN in front but i left the rest as they were before.
• The extra-small typeface used esp. in the Details columns is way too small, and unnecessarily so.  Done See below.
• The column and row headings should be marked up as such, and given scope identifiers (see the code behind the sample tables at WP:DISCOGSTYLE).  Done See below.
• The heading and link for the Certs column is no longer that used in this article. See the examples. Done See below.

• Not done: The link to Certifications should point to List of music recording certifications. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 13:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

• Table footer mark-up like | colspan="100" style="font-size:8pt; text-align: center"| is unnecessary. Copy from the examples and adapt.  Done Se below.

• Not done: The table footers include code like | colspan="100" style="font-size:8pt; text-align: center". With the alignment default already set for the table, you can remove the redundant text-align: center" here. Change font-size:8pt; to font-size:90%;. Also, change the "100" to the actual number of columns being spanned (e.g., 13). — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 13:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I hope this clarifies some of what I was talking about above. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 14:59, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

• More examples of DISCOGSTYLE changes yet to make:

• Please remove the bold formatting you added to the album tiles. That is, instead of '''''[[Angels Fall First]]''''', use ''[[Angels Fall First]]'' .
• Again, mark up the row headings as what they are. That means using the exclamation mark instead of piping symbol, and adding the scope="row" code. For the row in the previous example, use !scope="row"|''[[Angels Fall First]]''.
• At the top of the tables, add a default alignment, as in {| class="wikitable plainrowheaders" style="text-align:center;" border="1". Now you can remove the superfluous |align="center" from all of the peak columns.

— JohnFromPinckney (talk) 13:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

• The references are bogus. I quickly saw several that make me doubt the whole page. Allmusic has nothing to do with Hung Medien, but they appear in the same refs together. You fail to mention Allmusic at all in what look like the actual Allmusic refs. Many (all?) of the ref titles are made up or just erroneous (I might go visit that Date Bank, though). The first ref and the last ref have inconsistent formats, although they both purport to be "Nightwish's Official Website". Turns out they're completely different domains. All the references need to be rechecked.  Done See below.

• Sorry, no; not done.

• Ref 1 and similar: This isn't right: publisher=Nightwish's Official Website. The work is Nightwish.com, and the publisher is either Nightwish itself, or Nightwish.com, in the latter case of which you wouldn't duplicate the work, you'd just leave it out. "Nightwish's Official Website" is your made-up description of the site.  Done now i'm using work=Nighwish.com
• Ref 2 and similar: You haven't mentioned the Web site (Allmusic.com), only the publisher (Rovi Corporation). I suggest you fill in the site as work=Allmusic.  Done i'm using it.
• Refs 12, 13, 14 and similar: Again, you haven't identified the site, e.g. austriancharts.at, finnishcharts.com, lescharts.com. Also, eMedia Jungen should not be mentioned as publishers; they're only the Web designers. Mostly the publisher for these sites is Hung Medien. The two exceptions are their Belgian sites (not used here) and the NL site. The NL site's publisher should be publisher=Hung Medien / hitparade.ch, which is close to what you have now in Ref 18.  Done now i'm using, for example, work="austriancharts.at, and i repared the problems about the publishers.
• Many, manyMOST of the refs: You have invented a title for these things rather than use the <title> shown in the top edge of your browser or the actual top-level heading on the referenced page.  Done now i'm using different links with a simple title, check it out.
• The publisher for Ref 26 is not "Österreichischen Musikwirtschaft", but "IFPI Austria". If you want, you can call it "IFPI Austria - Verband der Österreichischen Musikwirtschaft", based on the text at page bottom, although that's rather long and isn't usually done, AFAIK.  Done i'm using IFPI Austria - Verband der Österreichischen Musikwirtschaft.

Still needs a lot of work. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 15:26, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't think this list is close to ready yet. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 23:52, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

• I intend to solve these new problems as soon as possible.Rodrigo18 (talk) 18:16, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

• New issues:

• Delink dates in infobox.  Done No more links wikilinks in dates
• No sources for sales of Once or Dark Passion Play in lede or elsewhere.  Done you can verify the sales of "Once" on ref 1, and i erased the informations about "Dark Passion Play" since i coldn't get any reliable source for it.

• Then you'd ordinarily need to tell the reader that in this article by placing a reflink after the sales mention. If the sales were mentioned below (in a table, outside the lede) with a ref, we wouldn't need to footnote the mention in the lede, but it doesn't appear anywhere else but the lede. However, if the only source for sales is the artist's website itself, then I'm afraid you'll have to remove it. Artists and record labels are notoriously unreliable as sources for sales figures. Find a better source or remove the "one million copies". — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 13:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

• The phrase "took the band to release" needs changing, but that entire sentence doesn't make sense anyway.  Done erased
• 3rd graph in lede: No commas needed around "Anette Olzon". Also remove the link.  Done repared
• 3rd graph in lede: Why "new album" and "new live album"? That last sentence doesn't make sense anyway and the word "containing" is misspelled.  Done repared
• Last graph in lede: "The seventh studio album, titled Imaginaerum," doesn't need "titled".  Done repared

• Look at "will come out on December 2 alongside with a the movie of the same name," and take out "with" and the following "the". — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 01:37, 18 September 2011 (UTC)  Done corrected

• Last graph in lede: Start a new sentence after the date (period instead of semicolon).  Done i added a few words.
• The sentences in general are too long, as they try to pack in too much info all at once, and the meaning gets murkier and finally lost. Especially as a non-native speaker, you should aim for shorter sentences.  Done i made some new sentences.
• Studio albums table: Certs should be shown in alpha order by country, same as the order of the chart peak countries.  Done i put FIN in front but i left the rest as they were before.
• Why are Demo albums after the Singles? Would an Albums heading make sense, with the other current album headings below that?  Done i erased the demos section since it's unnecessary.
• I've never seen lengths shown for music videos in an FL discography, and I'm not sure they're useful or desirable. Worse, it looks like they are unsourced WP:OR. If you keep them, though, how about right aligning the timings?  Done erased

That's all for the moment; will keep looking. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 14:59, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

• I kept looking, as promised, and here are some more new items:

• Get that Polish cert out of Studio albums, because we don't show any Polish charts. Remove France cert from Live albums for same reason.
• "Audio DVD" appears to always follow another item, so "Audio" should be lowercase.
• Digital download should link to Music download, not Download.

Regards, — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 13:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - judging from the caption, presumably the lead image wad taken by a time traveller....? ;- ) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:41, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Oh yeah, sorry for that.Rodrigo18 (talk) 09:35, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

• I think i understood what you said about the refs on charts, and i've made some modifications about the publishers and dates; and also i couldn't get reliable sources about the director for some videos, so i just wrote "Unknown". Is it ok now?Rodrigo18 (talk) 11:10, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Resolved comments from ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫Heyit's meI am dynamite 21:01, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

*Comments Although Nightwis debut album Angels Fall First, in 1997,[2] they did not achieve worldwide fame until the release of the albums Oceanborn, Wishmaster and Century Child, which were released in 1998, 2000 and 2002 respectively. – "h" missing in "Nightwis"; why do you link years?  Done no more links for dates since it's not usual in discographies Do not use curvy apostrophes, eg “Sleeping Sun”, per MOS:PUNCT.  Done i added "these apostrophes" In May 2007, former Alyson Avenue frontwoman, Anette Olzon, was revealed as Turunen’s replacement,[7] and in the autumn, the band released a new album, Dark Passion Play, which has sold almost two million copies, with their big single, "Amaranth", being released one month before.[1] – a long, multi-clause sentence. What about splitting it? For example put a period after "replacement" and begin the next sentence with "In the autumn".  Done i made new sentences What happened with the tables? Why are they so tight?--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫Heyit's meI am dynamite 21:12, 15 September 2011 (UTC) TABLES: I made some changes on the tables based on Gaga's featured discography, and it seems to be good since all the tables are equally big, and also based these changes on the suggestions by JohnFromPinckney. Rodrigo18 (talk) 15:20, 16 September 2011 (UTC) The differences between this disco and your example are huge; I have no idea why you chose a relative different discography with relative different tables. For example, the "Album details" column is very tiny, so that one,two,three words fit in one line. It is minimum twice as big as on Lady Gaga discography.--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫Heyit's meI am dynamite 10:28, 17 September 2011 (UTC) Comments I increased the columns. Not a big issue, but I would like to see the certifications alphabetically. Also where is "MCD" linked? Name the people on the infobox picture. In references, why don't you link "Hungarian" but "Polish"? In ref 24 add a space ahead the n-dash. In refs 3,4,5,12,25,26,29,35 use spaced n-dashes.--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫Heyit's meI am dynamite 16:36, 17 September 2011 (UTC)  Done thank you for the tables. Rodrigo18 (talk) 17:54, 17 September 2011 (UTC) I did the rest--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫Heyit's meI am dynamite 21:01, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Oppose. Some thoughts:

• Why so many italics in the references? Yeah, italicise books, magazines, newspapers, journals and such, but websites needn't be
• "Nightwish's Official Website" What's with the caps?
• I'm not keen on the "Unknown" director. It's not "unknown", in the same way it is "unknown" when Boudica was born, it's just that we don't know. Someone somewhere will know...
• "former vocalist Tarja Turunen" She's no longer a vocalist? She wasn't a vocalist when the band formed?
• "Nightwish's current line-up has five members although Turunen has been replaced by Anette Olzon and the original bassist, Sami Vänskä, has been replaced by Marco Hietala, who also took over the male vocalist part." Clumsy
• "Nightwish was popular in Finland since 1997" has been
• "Once Upon a Tour" Why are you italicising tour names?
• "when they played their last concert with Turunen on vocals and also when the End of an Era DVD was recorded." More clumsy phrasing
• "is scheduled to be released on November 11, 2001" How out of date is that?
• I'm not sure details of the tours is all that important. This is a discography- we're concerned with releases from the band

I'm opposing at this time on the bad writing and the "unknown" directors. The heavy reliance on primary sources also makes me pause. K-Ci & JoJo discography, nominated further up this page, is a far stronger example of a discography article, and covers a similar number of releases. J Milburn (talk) 11:47, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.