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Archive 1Archive 2

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 October 2023

In the October 9th paragraph Israeli is incorrectly spelt as Israelí.

In the October 11th paragraph "of northern" is missing a gap between the two words. Professor Spud (talk) 21:40, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done partly by me, partly by user Prodrummer619. Politrukki (talk) 15:08, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Is this really a necessary article in this point in time?

I believe this could be merged with October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict as its own section rather than requiring its own page when very little has happened. RamHez (talk) 13:41, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I also believe it this should be merged. IamBrainGriffinFromFamilyGuy (talk) 17:01, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
I agree Parham wiki (talk) 18:15, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
gotta disagree MissionGuyNoob (talk) 06:22, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
It should be merged, yes. It's a minor fragment of a much broader event. Belayed. The situation has moved on. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:40, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
agreed but i think this article should be renamed to Israel–Hezbollah clashes or of the likes. This wasn't a single strike or simply a Hezbollah strike but multiple clashes for the past week. RamHez (talk) 02:56, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Should the alleged involvement of Iraqi PMF and other "Axis of Resistance" militias be added to this page

According to the Institute for the Study of War, there are reports of a number of Iraqi PMU militias joining the Lebanese Hezbollah in Lebanon for a planned war against Israel. I don't know the veracity of such reports, but should the alleged involvement of Iraqi PMF elements be mentioned in this page? Or is it far too premature for that right now?

Source: https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-october-14-2023 Randomuser335S (talk) 15:19, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

IDF death toll at 5

Can't edit the article. Yesterday IDF death toll rose from 4 to 5. Source: Times of Israel reporting on yesterday attack. 2A00:1FA0:110:30C4:178E:81F7:F236:B7CA (talk) 07:58, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Casualties/Losses

2 merkava4 tanks of IDF were destroyed with clashes with Hezbola 2A00:23EE:1CA0:3137:B9E4:5629:1DA2:F45B (talk) 20:13, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 October 2023

Hezbollah kills IDF Soldier with ATGM Need to change from 3 to 4 https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-soldier-killed-in-hezbollah-anti-tank-cross-border-missile-attack/amp/ Kalaka2335 (talk) 16:13, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Elli (talk | contribs) 02:20, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 October 2023

2 Merkava 4 tanks of the IDF were destroyed in clashes with Hezbola 2A00:23EE:1CA0:3137:B9E4:5629:1DA2:F45B (talk) 01:13, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: It's not clear exactly what you want changed, and you also need to provide a reliable source for your request. Elli (talk | contribs) 02:21, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 October 2023

Remove the Asa'ib Ahl al-Haq from the belligerent section of the infobox.

The referenced article from the ISW does not properly demonstrate that this group is a belligerent in this conflict beyond some sort of braggadociousness on social media. No single kinetic military activity has been ascribed to the Asa'ib or to any other Al-Hashd Al-Shaabi group. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 02:30, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done Statement failed verification. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 15:42, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
Thank you, @TechnoSquirrel69. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 17:34, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Add Al-Qassam Brigades to units involved section in infobox

There is now explicit confirmation of Hamas's Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades operating out of Southern Lebanon per ISW.[1] Please add them to the units involved section of the infobox.

SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 20:17, 19 October 2023 (UTC) SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 20:17, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Also, see [[1]] Brendan ❯❯❯ Talk 05:00, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Iran Update, October 18, 2023". Institute for the Study of War. October 18, 2023.

Is this the socond front ?

For over a week this part of the border has seen some fighting can this be a second front ? 2600:6C50:1B00:32BE:E12E:E076:3863:5956 (talk) 23:35, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Merger discussion

I propose merging this article into October 2023 Israel–Hezbollah Golan fire exchanges. Rather than have seperate articles on Hezbollah clashes with Israel during this wider war, it would make sense to have a single article with a name like 2023 Hezbollah-Israel clashes or 2023 Hezbollah-Israel conflict. Please discuss here. GWA88 (talk) 14:30, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

"Support"- I think the Hezbollah stuff should be moved here but what should be done about the Israeli Airstrikes on Syrian airports in that article. HuntersHistory (talk) 21:22, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
Support proposed merge of articles regarding the recent clashes in and around Lebanon and Syria. Oppose proposed Hezbollah-centric names due to the involvement of cells of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad operating out of Lebanon in the events described in this article, in addition to the involvement of the non-Hezbollah-affiliated Syrian Air Defense Force in responding to Israeli strike on apparent non-Hezbollah-affiliated targets in Syria (Aleppo and Damascus International Airports).
Alternatively suggest tentative name Spillover of the 2023 Israel-Hamas war, in the format of articles Spillover of the Syrian civil war and Spillover of the Tigray War, which largely cover incidents involving third parties to the main conflict similar to the events discussed here, which would be largely coterminous with the "Outside Israel and the Gaza strip" section of the primary article.
SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 21:50, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
“Support” @SaintPaulOfTarsus because that makes sense to me. HuntersHistory (talk) 22:14, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
Support per nom Abo Yemen✉ 19:11, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
===Support===
This can be renamed as Spillover of the 2023 Israel-Hamas war as suggested by User:SaintPaulOfTarsus. 110.224.97.128 (talk) 04:12, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose because this article was created more earlier than that one that you're talking about and there's currently a proposed name change for the article; and also the article that you're talking about has less information about Hezbollah and Israel. PopularGames (talk) 22:56, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed there should be at most one article. This was around first, is much longer, and is the only one of the two actually about Hezbollah, so I redirected the other here. The brief material about Syria is now convered in 2023 Israel–Hamas war#Outside_the_conflict_zone – SJ + 20:11, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
Nicely done. Thank you for your assistance. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 02:16, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 8 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: MOVED to 2023 Israel-Lebanon border clashes per WP:NOTCURRENTTITLE. Discussion indicates no remaining support for current title or requested title, but instead general support for some other title. As "2023 Israel-Lebanon border clashes" appears to be a common name in the media for this topic (pointed out in discussion) I am moving it to that title. (non-admin closure) Ultimograph5 (talk) 05:06, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

October 2023 Hezbollah strike → 2023 Shebaa Farms airstrike – The attack actually happened at this location, and in the future, "strike" may be mistaken for strike action Bremps... 18:57, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

True,I support this. 2023 Shebaa Farms airstrike sounds better and specific MissionGuyNoob (talk) 06:16, 9 October 2023 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBECR and WP:ARBPIA4. — MaterialWorks 18:28, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
Support: Reasonable. Strikes from both sides, not just from Hezbollah. Prodrummer619 (talk) 06:43, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose: Strikes have occurred in numerous places in Lebanon and Israel. Not just Shebaa. Also, there's currently an exchange of fire between Israel and Hezbollah so the article shouldn't just talk exclusively about the October 8 strike on Shebaa. I would suggest renaming it to October 2023 Hezbollah-Israel strikes/exchange or something like that. Prodrummer619 (talk) 12:58, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
Comment: It has turned into a violent exchange Prodrummer619 (talk) 14:07, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
Support alternative: Move to October 2023 Hezbollah strikes, making "strike" plural because the article encompasses all of the clashes between Hezbollah and Israel happening alongside the October 2023 Gaza−Israel conflict. AmericanBaath (talk) 21:46, 9 October 2023 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBECR and WP:ARBPIA4. — MaterialWorks 18:28, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
Support: This proposal makes the most sense. Charles Essie (talk) 03:39, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Move to 2023 Israel−Lebanon border clashes since this already covers a variety of events and multiple parties, i.e. it's not just 'strikes' and the border incursion was by the PIJ, not Hezbollah, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:37, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Or 2023 Israel−Lebanon clashes, as mentioned below as a variant. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:03, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Support alternative: and the fact that the PIJ are also involved makes me support the change, though i prefer "October 2023 south Lebanon clashes " Durranistan (talk) 11:59, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
It didn't happen in north Lebanon, it was in southern Lebanon and the occupied Golan Heights. Not Israel. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:41, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
thanks for the correction, my mistake Durranistan (talk) 06:48, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Support this variant. It could also be October 2023 Hezbollah–Israel clashes. Oppose 2023 Israel−Lebanon border clashes because it is not about the army of the Republic of Lebanon. Oppose all other variants, they're not simple strikes. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 14:34, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Support move to 2023 Hezbollah–Israel clashes or 2023 Israel−Lebanon border clashes. GWA88 (talk) 14:48, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Oppose "Israel−Lebanon border clashes", the strike wasn't on the border between Israel and Lebanon, it was in the Sheba farms, between Lebanon and the occupied Golan Heights. It is a clear npov violation to claim the area is "Israel". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:38, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Events have involved, and there has subsequently been an incursion and a series of strikes across the border proper, making it a far broader geography at this point that just the Sheba farms. However, it could potentially also just be 2023 Israel−Lebanon clashes, because yes, technically, there is disputed space. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:59, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
It doenst matter if it has evolved, the first strike happened on border between Lebanon and occupied territory, not Israel. The title must accurately describe the event in a npov way.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:21, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose - current title is appropriate. Hezbollah strikes are not limited to that specific place. It is also not a border conflict or crisis. Paul Vaurie (talk) 02:37, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
  • Comment - There have been multiple rocket attacks, artillery strikes, air strikes, as well as infiltration by gunmen and shootings on the border since last week. We are well past being able to call this a singular strike, regardless of whether the page renaming involves Shebaa or not. --Dynamo128 (talk) 08:58, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
October 2023 Hezbollah–Israel clashes or simply 2023 Hezbollah–Israel clashes would make the most sense given the circumstances, and would also be in line with how such topics are typically referred to on Wikipedia. --Dynamo128 (talk) 09:00, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Again, Palestinian Islamic Jihad has also become involved, so it's not just Hezbollah anything at this point, hence the alternative suggestions that are more widely encompassing. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Support move to 2023 Hezbollah–Israel clashes RamHez (talk) 14:22, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
Support immediate replacement of "Hezbollah strike" in current name. "Strike" in the singular is clearly outdated terminology, and Hezbollah is now one of three combatants against Israel on this front. Oppose any move to a title referencing the "Shebaa Farms" because clashes have taken place throughout nearly the entire length of the (de facto) Israel-Lebanon border. Also considering that nearly all the contents of this article also appear in 2023 Israel-Hamas war#Outside Israel and the Gaza Strip, consider potential merge? SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 13:53, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
I think with how this conflict has developed since this article was created, that 2023 Hezbollah–Israel clashes is now the most appropriate title. GWA88 (talk) 16:18, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
Comment: Reliable sources such as Reuters continue are referring to these events as Israel-Lebanon border clashes, and Wikipedia should be using something similar. This is already extremely appropriate per WP:NCE, while the suggestions of using "Hezbollah–Israel" in the title are simply not. WP:NCE calls for "when, where, what" and Hezbollah is not a where, but a who. Matching like for like here would give you either Hezbollah-IDF or Lebanon-Israel border, but matching actors with territories is just a mess, apples and oranges, and not what is called for by WP:NCE. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:00, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Support move to 2023 Hezbollah–Israel clashes. Clashes have expanded and are continues. EkoGraf (talk) 18:14, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

casualties of Israel

must be updated. 85.104.67.100 (talk) 23:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Why only hezbollah casualties are updated not Israel's? What about no. of tanks destroyed?

Why only hezbollah casualties are updated not Israel's? What about no. of tanks destroyed? If Israel not revealing it's numbers, why not add hezbollah alleged claim? While mentioning it's hezbollah claim. 202.47.36.141 (talk) 14:36, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Rockets fired from Lebanon at north; IDF strikes terror cells, Hezbollah sites

IDF says it bombed terror group’s positions in southern Lebanon in response to attacks; Israel also said to hit Syrian military, pro-Iran militia targets in response to shelling. Source: The Times of Israel Accuratelibrarian (talk) 00:00, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Displaced people

If we are willing to add the number of displaced people in Lebanon, we should add the number of displaced in Israel. By this article. Israel evacuated the city of Kiryat Shmona as well as 42 smaller communities 5 kms from the Lebanese border, at least 34,000 residents. Supported (without numbers) by this article, as well as the official government decision for evacuation (in Hebrew). Bhtzuc (talk) 17:23, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

This seems like a reasonable request. I can’t understand why it hasn’t be done. While at it, number of displaced in Lebanon should be updated as well. Emmett87 (talk) 20:56, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 26 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Clear consensus that the proposed rename of 2023 Israel–Lebanon border clashes should not be carried out, as it is no longer October and the event is still ongoing. However, there isn't clear agreement about what to do with 2023 Israel–Lebanon shellings, and another discussion to just move it could take place and has a better chance of gaining consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) Elli (talk | contribs) 01:12, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

– Differentiate between the April and October events. The April events include more than shellings, but also airstrikes. Suggest renaming for consistency. Longhornsg (talk) 21:56, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Comment: The shellings in April didn't involve any border clashies at all though ... Some shelling occurred, and then there were airstrikes on Tyre and Gaza, nowhere near the border. Border clashes would be a totally non-descript title for that. Better to just add April in front of that title to distinguish it from the shellings that have occurred in the October clashes. Job done. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:49, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
If preferred by consensus and based upon the above comment, I would switch support from 2023 Israel–Lebanon shellings → April 2023 Israel–Lebanon border clashes to 2023 Israel–Lebanon shellings → April 2023 Israel–Lebanon shellings. As for the proposed 2023 Israel-Lebanon border clashes → October 2023 Israel-Lebanon border clashes, I feel that the inclusion of "October" within the main title header is analogous to the "April" header and solidifies clarity. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:52, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
I certainly think this would be preferable to reducing everything to "border clashes". As an alternative to 2023 Israel-Lebanon border clashes → October 2023 Israel-Lebanon border clashes, it might also be reasonable to now intensify this title to 2023 Israel-Lebanon border conflict, given the mounting damage and dead - I'm not sure if "border clashes" really adequately sums up the scale of engagements: it sounds more like protests and the odd potshot than it does the serious rocket and artillery exchanges that are ongoing - with facilities hit, many dead and flights redirected. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:21, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Agree with your points on "border clashes", and I would drop "border" given that some subsequent activity has occurred quite far from the border. Propose 2023 Israel-Hezbollah clashes or the like. Longhornsg (talk) 06:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Since the 2023 Israel–Lebanon shellings → April 2023 Israel–Lebanon shellings only lasted for one day in April, it seems sufficient to simply add "April". On the other hand, since the current hostilities will last beyond October, I would amend support to either of the above-proposed alternatives: 2023 Israel-Lebanon border clashes → 2023 Israel-Lebanon border conflict or 2023 Israel-Hezbollah clashes or even 2023 Israel-Hezbollah conflict. Depending upon the progression of hostilities, further revisions using terms stronger than "conflict" or "clashes" may be ultimately applicable. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 08:13, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
Support moving 2023 Israel–Lebanon shellings → April 2023 Israel–Lebanon shellings per Roman Spinner above. VR talk 13:53, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

October is almost over, and this will probably be going on for a while — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.229.178.74 (talk) 07:15, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree, the proposed title will be obsolete in a few hours. VR talk 13:51, 31 October 2023 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Israeli casualities

Hezbollah Claims 120 israeli troops have been killed/wounded in the border strikes.

This should be updated. 80.220.74.143 (talk) 13:33, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Claims by Hezbollah (or really by anyone) are not reliable sources. Aydoh8 (talk) 04:39, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
well the leaders' statements must be taken into consideration whether they are true or not: on the Hamas-Israel war Wiki page the entry "1000 infiltrators killed in Israel" was added without providing any documentation, photographic proof or confirmation of this figure. We Wikipedians are not historians, which is why we must take into consideration all possibilities, even more so if they come from the leaders of countries or movements at war with each other. On the Russian-Ukrainian war page, completely random numbers and numbers of Russian losses are cited without any actual evidence, however our job is not to make sure if the number is accurate, that is the job of historians, if there is evidence that Hezbollah has mentioned that number, must be inserted Elia Tamburin (talk) 22:02, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
can you show source? Durranistan (talk) 04:53, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
https://english.almanar.com.lb/1958024&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiNpcGFi66CAxVZHzQIHc1oA-YQFnoECA8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3u0Eg_vHhE2rHrYnXxGM5F
Right here
for deaths at least 17 have been admitted by the IDF whereas Hezbollah claims it’s 30. 90 IDF injured respectively A.H.T Videomapping (talk) 00:12, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

The commanders of the israeli forces in the front

This page appears to refer to every incident in the current military confrontation between israel and hezbollah, and not specifically to a single strike in a defined sector. Therefore, the way in which the 2 israeli officers that were killed are represented as the main commanders of the israeli forces in the front, is wrong and creates a misleading impression that the commanders of all israeli forces in the region were killed in one strike/incident (in fact, both of the israeli commanders weren't responsible on division sized forces). Which isn't true. Therefore, I think that the list of the israeli leaders in the front needs to be updated. טוראי פייל (talk) 02:00, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I assume the commanders should be Ori Gordin and above? Maybe Shai Klapper, the 91st Division commander, can also be included but I'm not sure the 91st Division is the only one responsible for the Lebanon front. Theipu (talk) 18:35, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 November 2023

Danyd92 (talk) 19:20, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Another Israeli civilian has been killed, as well as an Israeli soldier who died of his wounds following an accident. https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-civilian-killed-in-anti-tank-missile-attack-from-lebanon-amid-escalation/

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —Sirdog (talk) 05:24, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 November 2023

change israeli casualties per hezbollah from 120 to over 350 killed or injured.

in hassan nasrallah's speech, he stated that over 350 israelis have been killed or injured from the beginning of the conflict. AliDaniFarhat (talk) 14:48, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Claim still has to be verified. It’s not as if Hezbollah could count and see every cadaver they claim. Borgenland (talk) 14:49, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Military death incorrectly listed as civilian

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/civilian-killed-in-hezbollah-attack-on-kiryat-shmona-named-as-meir-mouyal-55/

Article says civilian was killed while working on behalf of the Israeli armed forces. Should be listed as death of a combantant. 161.216.164.22 (talk) 15:22, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-civilian-killed-in-anti-tank-missile-attack-from-lebanon-amid-escalation/
Hezbollah at the time of the attack stated they attacked an IDF position, however israel stated a civilian was killed and only clarified that he was a combatant four days later. This Wikipedia article still shows him as a civilian with no clarification 2605:B100:D4D:6C2F:0:5:B40A:2801 (talk) 18:11, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
just gonna ignore this injustice? Now we know who the real terrorists are 2605:B100:D21:68E5:0:F:D83F:A601 (talk) 02:57, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

al-Fajr Forces of the Islamic Group in Lebanon are a belligerent

Please add the Islamic Group and its military wing, the al-Fajr Forces to the infobox as belligerents and units involved, respectively. I will demonstrate below why this change should be made. Editors might also consider including some of this information into the body of the article.

The al-Fajr Forces took responsibility for a volley of missiles which struck Kiryat Shemona on Sunday, October 29, 2023. [1]

The al-Fajr Forces claimed to have launched missiles against Israeli targets from southern Lebanon on October 18, 2023. [2]

Corroboration: [3] [4].

Thank you. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 00:00, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Martyr Abu Ali Mustafa Brigades of the PFLP are not a belligerent

Hello all, I have reviewed the source provided next to the  Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in the infobox and do not believe that this justifies its inclusion as a belligerent. While the group has declared a state of mobilization among its ranks in Lebanon, it has not claimed responsibility for any attacks on the border, nor have any attacks been ascribed to it. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 00:04, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Civilians death

7 Lebanese civilians have died not 16, 2 in chebaa, 1 journalist and 4 in the massacre israel done against 3 children 5.195.212.42 (talk) 04:13, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 November 2023

Israeli casualties reported by Hezbollah as of nov/22/23 is 354 according to an official statement by Hezbollah. 2600:1702:2DF0:12B0:C05F:6D92:EBEC:9057 (talk) 11:49, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 22 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 18:34, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

2023 Israel–Lebanon border clashes → 2023 Israel–Lebanon border conflict- Should there be a discussion about changing the name from 2023 Israel–Lebanon border clashes to 2023 Israel–Lebanon border conflict because of the death toll and rise in violence. HuntersHistory (talk) 23:03, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I suggested this previously already, and it seems more apt now, yes. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:43, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
I have opened it up as a discussion to
see what more people think. HuntersHistory (talk) 16:27, 24 November 2023 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Israeli civilians displaced not shown in infobox

While the infobox mentions the amount of Lebanese displaced, it doesn't mention the amount of Israelis that had been displaced.

The amount is already stated in the page itself, so it's weird that no one added it to the infobox.

Can anyone edit the infobox and add the number?

Side note, the amount that evacuated is much higher than 65,000 people. Back at the 26th of october, there were 60,000 evacuated from the north of Israel (In hebrew, first bold line in the body of the article), the number has risen since. Current numbers of total evacuees from both North and South are between 200,000 to 300,000, and the line of evacuation was upgraded from 2KM to 5KM from the border with Lebanon. I can't find specific number for evacuees from the north, so it's 60,000+ (outdated). Shisoy (talk) 23:24, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 December 2023

4th Israeli civilian killed at the border with Lebanon. Source: https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-civilian-killed-by-anti-tank-missile-in-north-as-hezbollah-attacks-continue/ Danyd92 (talk) 17:14, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 17:15, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Fatalities to update

https://new.thecradle.co/articles/hezbollah-escalates-attacks-on-israels-northern-front -Israel's Channel 12 reported: "8 IDF soldiers were killed today on the border with Lebanon." Elia Tamburin (talk) 17:02, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Done.Mr.User200 (talk) 02:00, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Israeli death toll drops?

So not long ago there were 10 Israeli soldier deaths listed here. Now the number is 9. What's the matter? Don't we know the names of these fallen?

Most likely a error. I have checked any source or name of the 10th soldier.No mention of him.Mr.User200 (talk) 02:00, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Bombs

"According to the photos presented by the "Washington Post" and video clips coming from Lebanon, it can be seen that the IDF made use of these measures, mainly in open areas covered with tangled and thick vegetation. There are many such areas in the Upper Galilee, mainly in nature reserves, but in Lebanon these nature reserves cover military compounds established by Hezbollah and its Radwan force as forward bases from which the organization's fighters are supposed to launch operations against Israel."

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bykjwxbip

"Kirby also added that “it's important to remind that white phosphorus does have a legitimate military utility, in terms of illumination and cruising smoke to conceal movements. And obviously, anytime that we provide items like white phosphorus to another military, it is with a full expectation that it will be used in keeping with those legitimate purposes and in keeping with the law of armed conflict.” https://www.ynetnews.com/article/bykjwxbip 2.55.164.84 (talk) 08:14, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Shooting on civilians

"Hezbollah accepted responsibility for firing an anti-tank missile near Moshav Dovev, from which 15 civilians were injured, one critically and one seriously. Seven soldiers were slightly wounded by an IED hit near Menara. Hamas in Lebanon accepted responsibility for firing rockets at Kiryat Bialik and Acre." https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-12/ty-article/0000018b-c37e-dc2b-a3fb-e7fe784c0000

"Dozens of launches were recorded this morning (Thursday) in one volley from Lebanon towards many settlements in the Upper Galilee and above the Galilee, the farthest of which is Biriya. Alarms were also activated in the Miron area, in one of the most significant barrages in the north since the war began 48 days ago. Hezbollah claimed that 48 rockets were launched in that barrage."

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/sjai2yn4t

It was happened at the past:

https://www.hrw.org/reports/2007/iopt0807/2.htm 2.55.175.4 (talk) 08:29, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Wounded Lebanese Army soldiers now at eight.

First on CNN: US rebukes Israel for more than 30 attacks on Lebanese military amid concerns of Gaza conflict widening
"US officials believe Israel’s attacks on the Lebanese military have resulted in at least eight injuries and one death since October 7."
An edit to the casualties section of the infobox to reflect as such would be appreciated. UncleBourbon (talk) 05:56, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done Updated infobox "casualties3" section as requested. DigitalChutney (talk) 13:59, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Outdated Claims About Israeli Casualties and the Number of Operations

1-The Latest Claim that Hezbollah released about the number of Israelis killed is 354 killed/wounded. (The claim comes from Hezbollah's official Military Media, you can see a repost of the claim here: https://twitter.com/shigri_zayeem/status/1727780958441717936 . The infographic was also made by Hezbollah)

2- Hezbollah also claims that they did more than 509 Military Operations against the Israeli Defence Forces since October 8. (The claim comes also from Hezbollah's Official Military Media, you can see a repost of the claim here: https://twitter.com/AoR3138/status/1735684269731614776 ) InfiniteValrath (talk) 06:00, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Kibutz

"09:52/אולם התרבות של קיבוץ בגליל נפגע מירי נ"ט תושבים מהגליל העליון מדווחים כי ירי נ"ט פגע באולם התרבות והמופעים של קיבוץ סאסא. עוד נמסר כי אין נפגעים באירוע." "09:52 The cultural hall of a Galilee kibbutz was hit by anti-tank fire Residents of the Upper Galilee report that anti-tank fire hit the cultural and performance hall of Kibbutz Sasa. It was also reported that there were no casualties in the incident."https://news.walla.co.il/blog/3629261 2.55.21.91 (talk) 08:30, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Far from neutral

Uses weasel words and point-of-view forks Moniquebonique (talk) 10:45, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

@Moniquebonique: Hello, could you point some of them out for me so I can change? Prodrummer619 (talk) 18:33, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Timeline of clashes is very large- split?

The Events section of the article is about 85 kb, and it looks like a split into an article consisting of a timeline of the clashes shouldn't be ruled out as a possibility. I may do this in the near future, and consolidate the info on border clashes in this article, just notifying here too if that happens and why it would - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 16:57, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Probably need to prepare a summary before making said move. Borgenland (talk) 18:04, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
@Presidentofyes12: I agree. Its very silly having it and to keep expanding it at this point. Prodrummer619 (talk) 09:24, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Shooting from a mosque

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b1spbvuda 2.55.15.25 (talk) 13:28, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

A cherch

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b1spbvuda 2.55.15.25 (talk) 12:13, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-military/6361323ddea5a810/Article-5ca88108727ac81026.htm?sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=173113802 2A00:A041:1CE0:0:1915:D7B3:DF90:FF6F (talk) 18:49, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Bad casualty interpretation

the four civilian deaths are not the non combat deaths of idf. There were 8 soldiers killed in combat, 3 soldiers killed in accidents, and 4 civilians killed. Only three non combat IDF deaths. Total should be 11 soldiers, 4 civilians on Israel side as of 22 Dec 2023 2605:B100:D20:655B:0:5:34B0:2501 (talk) 17:42, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Done. But another one died on 22 after your comment.Mr.User200 (talk) 02:41, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

biased wording not supported by source

"The IDF fired warning shots and used riot dispersal means at 18 people, including journalists and parliamentarians that crossed the border from Lebanon and walked 80 meters into Israeli territory.[42]" — as the cited article says, they walked into israeli-occupied disputed territory, not unambiguously israeli territory 130.180.88.101 (talk) 00:02, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Should there maybe be a new page because of Hamas in Lebanon.

W With the creation of the page Hamas in Lebanon and the escalating conflict I wounder if a page should be created called something like 2023-2024 Palestinian insurgency in South Lebanon or Hamas insurgency in South Lebanon and some of the stuff be merged there much like how the PLO in Lebanon page is connected to the Palestinian insurgency in South Lebanon and the 1982 Lebanon War HuntersHistory (talk) 22:32, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 January 2024

In the latest hezbollah infographic on November 23, they claimed 354 israel soldiers wounded/killed on the border. 185.118.220.5 (talk) 10:39, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. RetroCosmos (talk) 17:30, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 January 2024 (2)

Per Hezbollah: 120 killed/wounded Should be 354 killed/wounded 185.118.220.5 (talk) 10:41, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Borgenland (talk) 17:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Correct the Hezbollah retaliation to Saleh Al Arouri's assasination.

Hezbollah confirmed launching 62 rockets towards an israeli air command center in mount meron.

Add that info and correct the mistakes made, also correct the fact that this is an initial response, as stated by Hezbollah.

The people who have rights to edit this article should 1rst and foremost look at Hezbollah's statements if they write about their operations, all info necessary will be found there. 80.220.74.143 (talk) 14:40, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Add Amal movement units and leader

Add afwaj mokawama lobnaniya amal for the military units involved and the commander nabih berri since everyday includes a lot of rocket firing from them to israel Moudb (talk) 19:50, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 26 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) feminist🇭🇰🇺🇦 (talk) 06:43, 7 January 2024 (UTC)


2023 Israel–Lebanon border conflict → 2023 Israel–Hezbollah conflict – At the onset of hostilities, the conflict was limited to the Israel-Lebanon border but since then, both Israel and Hezbollah deepened their strikes, stretching beyond the border area. Additionally, IDF is operating deep inside Syria, not just around the Golan Heights. With that in mind, I think it would suitable to find a new name for the article, I think 2023 Israel–Hezbollah conflict would be suitable. Other suggestions are also welcome. Ecrusized (talk) 12:33, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Whilst I do agree that the conflict has expanded from the Lebanese border, it is worth also acknowledging that the fighting is definitely not just between Israel and Hezbollah. Numerous other groups have also entered and have been actively fighting against Israel. Perhaps a more fitting name would be something along the lines of “2023 Northern Israel Conflict”, or “2023 Israel—Lebanon/Syria Conflict”. IiSmxyzXX (talk) 21:05, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
I think 2023 Israel–Hezbollah conflict is a fine name but we also got to think about the name based on other groups involved in the conflict so maybe something like Israel–Lebanon conflict (2023-Present), Northern Israel Conflict (2023-present), South Lebanon conflict (2023-Present), 2023-2024 Shebaa Farms conflict, 2023-2024 Levant Conflict, or something else, also since 2023 is almost over maybe it’s better to move it to 2023-2024 Israel–Hezbollah conflict, Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023-Present), or Israel–Lebanon conflict (2023-present) HuntersHistory (talk) 00:22, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
  • Support - indeed though Hezbollah party is part of the Lebanese government, the Republic of Lebanon is not (yet) directly participating in fighting vs Israel. 2023 Israel–Lebanon border conflict is correct, but Israel-Hezbollah conflict is the most correct naming term and in line with sources like [3].GreyShark (dibra) 16:07, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
  • Support. It isn't possible to tell the whole story in the title, but the proposed version is closer to the facts than the current version. The only other possibility I see is to note that the border is indeed the Israel–Lebanon border, so we could have something like "2003 conflict at the Israel–Lebanon border". Zerotalk 03:20, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
    Now that it’s 2024 maybe 2023-2024 Israel–Hezbollah conflict or Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023-Present) because the conflict is ongoing and 2023 is over. HuntersHistory (talk) 05:13, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
OpposeSupport: Since the current conflict isn't only taking place the Lebanon-Israel border. Or how about a more descriptive one like 2023 Israel–Hamas war spillover in Lebanon and Syria Prodrummer619 (talk) 10:32, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
"2023 Israel–Hamas war spillover in Lebanon and Syria" would be preferable to Israel-Hezbollah conflict. VR talk 17:21, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Support: No longer limited to borders and limited strikes.--Sakiv (talk) 16:58, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
  • Support As Israel starts to attack Hezbollah inside Lebanon, this couldn't be just a border conflict.
Wendylove (talk) 23:53, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

W:I brought this up farther down with the creation of the page Hamas in Lebanon and the escalating conflict with the creation of the Al-Aqsa Flood Vanguards, the Assassination of Saleh al Arouri, and Mark Regev saying "this was not an attack on the Lebanese state ... Whoever did this did a surgical strike against the Hamas leadership". I wonder if a page should be created called something like 2023-2024 Palestinian insurgency in South Lebanon or Hamas insurgency in South Lebanon and some of the stuff be merged there much like how the PLO in Lebanon page is connected to the Palestinian insurgency in South Lebanon and the 1982 Lebanon War and I like the decision of calling this article the 2023-2024 Hezbollah–Israel conflict. HuntersHistory (talk) 00:20, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-move discussion

Now that it has been moved to "2023 Israel-Hezbollah conflict", we should probably remove conflict that doesn't strictly relate to Hezbollah, such as Israeli airstrikes on Iranian and Syrian military targets. Will we also limit this article to 2023, and not include any 2024 events? VR talk 05:40, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

2,000 Israeli casualties according to Hezbollah

I think this should be removed because the claim is exaggerated. Any party can assert any amount of unattributed claims against their opponents. Ecrusized (talk) 19:47, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Agree with editor @Genabab:'s comments here [7]. NBC is considered an RS. And as long as the claim is properly attributed to Hezbollah for the reader to understand there is no reason to remove it. EkoGraf (talk) 20:07, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
I don't doubt the reliability of NBC News..... I doubt that Hezbollah is a reliable source. Ecrusized (talk) 21:06, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
As Genabab said himself, it is most likely not true. However, we still include claims of all belligerents in a conflict for the sake of NPOV balance, presenting all sides POV. Like we have included over in the main Israel-Hamas conflict article the mention of Israel's claim they killed 1,000 militants in those first days within Israel, or like we include both Ukraine's and Russia's claims of their enemies losses over at the Russia-Ukraine war article (all figures that are more than likely inflated for the sake of propaganda), EkoGraf (talk) 21:26, 8 January 2024 (UTC)
I would agree that its probably not true, but deciding that, is not Wikipedia's job. Really, as long as NBC (a rs) is saying "Hezbollah claimed this" that's reason enough to include it. But only if we do say 'claimed by' Hezbollah. since other groups like the IDF are denying it. Genabab (talk) 20:09, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Shot at house

https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-military/2024_q1/Article-963b7a378480d81026.htm?sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=173113802 2.55.167.54 (talk) 17:20, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Al manar

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/bk5ryxqca 2A00:A041:1CE0:0:E139:30F8:BF3:D3FE (talk) 23:38, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 January 2024

https://www.alnour.com.lb/news/ordinary/75020/%D9%81%D8%B6%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%87-%D9%86%D8%AA%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%8A%D8%B4-%D9%85%D8%B9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%87%D9%88%D8%AF-%D9%88%D9%86%D8%B1%D9%81%D8%B6-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B8%D9%84%D9%85-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A5%D8%B3%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%A6%D9%8A%D9%84%D9%8A

See link above that contradicts the text in quotation currently present in this article, I quote Hezbollah not only opposes the government and policies of the State of Israel, but also each and every Jewish civilian who lives in Israel.

FadlAllah and other religious leaders have always stated that there is no animosity to jews , but that they oppose Zionism, you can read it in the link I've attached above, and you can find other examples. The manifesto mentioned in the wikipedia article and the personality being quoted, is not a media relation director as mentioned in link 36 . Also most of the links are not from Hezbollah or neutral sources, but sources who are in conflict with the movement, I would hence encourage links that are neutral, and if this is not available then at least add a counter link that can contradict the opposing link. Accusation such as Hezbollah or other movements oppose Jews in general are serious. You should take example on your Hezbollah article in the arabic language that has a whole section dedicated on how Hezbollah view jews see below https://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A3%D9%8A%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%84%D9%88%D8%AC%D9%8A%D8%A7_%D8%AD%D8%B2%D8%A8_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%87 Abysmalwinger (talk) 23:42, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: I've modified that line to specify the time frame, but I'm not clear on how the person in the source is related to Hezbollah, as it doesn't mention Hezbollah in the source. The Arabic Wikipedia article you linked to seems to be a translation of our article on the same topic at Ideology of Hezbollah. ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 18:26, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

What to do about the 2 dead search-and-rescuers?

So far, we have been unable to come up with an effective solution for where, in the casualties section, to place the two Hezbollah-linked dead search-and-rescuers. I, provisionally, put them apart from Hezbollah casualties, but they were then merged with the Hezbollah casualties. The issue is that RS do not merge these counts, making our total Hezbollah death count 2 higher than those in RS. Because of this, they were removed recently from the Hezbollah death toll, but are now simply absent entirely. This needs to be fixed, as the lack of these two deaths means that our conflict-total is off by two. What should be done about this issue? TheAwesomeAtom (talk) 19:42, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Search-and-rescuers are civilians, not combatants, and should be counted as civilians. EkoGraf (talk) 02:43, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
Aight, fair enough. TheAwesomeAtom (talk) 17:38, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 25 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. consensus not to move (closed by non-admin page mover) Warm Regards, ZI Jony (Talk) 15:27, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present) → Israel–Hezbollah War (2023–present) – If the 2,000 casualties per Hezbollah is true should this be moved to Israel–Hezbollah War (2023–present) because that would be enough deaths to be considered a war and I think we should discuss this. HuntersHistory (talk) 22:01, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose (for now) - If reliable sources start calling it a war, then we can change it, as per WP:COMMONNAME. At the moment, I haven't seen sources calling it a war. EkoGraf (talk) 23:46, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Oppose Not described as a war by RS. Ecrusized (talk) 15:50, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
Support I respect the points raised, but I'd like to offer a different perspective. Even if some sources hesitate to use the term "war", the conflict's characteristics (casualties, sustained military engagement, regional implications) arguably align more closely with traditional definitions of war than a lower-intensity conflict. We should consider these tangible factors, in addition to labels, when assessing the conflict's nature. Media outlets, particularly in the West, can sometimes be slow to adopt terms like "war" due to legal and political sensitivities. This reluctance shouldn't prevent us from using the most accurate descriptor as the situation develops. While "conflict" is technically accurate, it risks downplaying the severity of the situation. "War", while carrying its own connotations, offers a more precise and informative title. Detsom (talk) 23:48, 31 January 2024 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add name of killed Hezbollah commanders to commanders and leaders

Someone should add “Ali al-debs” to the commanders and leaders column. https://today.lorientlejour.com/article/1368298/senior-hezbollah-commander-al-debs-killed-in-israeli-strike-on-nabatieh.html

https://www.arabnews.com/node/2461511/middle-east Jabbatheblack (talk) 17:08, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Should also add the commander “Mohammed Alawiyeh”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hezbollah-commander-dies-days-after-being-injured-in-an-israeli-strike/ Jabbatheblack (talk) 02:32, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
Also “Hassan Salami” who was killed today
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-it-killed-senior-hezbollah-commander-in-south-lebanon-strike/ Jabbatheblack (talk) 21:57, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Wrong details in the Template

In the Israeli side,

Units - It implies only the 188th Armored Brigade participated. That brigade is part of 36th Division, but that entire division was in Gaza and surroundings in 7.10.23 - January. That brigade was in no way participating in the conflict yet. Only 91st Division (including 300th brigade in which its 2nd rank officer Alim Abdallah was killed) and 210th Division participated in the conflict in a low-volume fighting.

Killed civilians - it implies 0 Israeli civilians killed although 6 Israeli civilians killed. IdanST (talk) 10:34, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Misleading Details in Casaulties Section

Per Israel, total casaulties are 8 soldiers and 6 civilians, not 14 soldiers.

Yet, in the page it's stated "Casualties and losses// Per Israel 14 soldiers killed". Even in the same page some of the reported incidents in which Israelis were killed it's explicitly stated they were civilians. For example, "On 5 November, Hezbollah shot down an Israeli Elbit Hermes 450 drone over Nabatieh, with wreckage falling over houses in the towns of Zabdin and Harouf. One Israeli civilian was killed when anti-tank missiles hit the Yiftah kibbutz. Four people were reportedly injured after an Israeli bombing that hit two ambulances. Later, an Israeli airstrike hit two civilian cars in Lebanon carrying members of the same family driving between the towns of Aynata and Aitaroun which killed one women, three of her granddaughters between the ages of 10 and 14, and severely injured her daughter. In response, Hezbollah fired at Kiryat Shmona, killing an Israeli civilian." IdanST (talk) 19:07, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

14 Israeli soldiers and 6 civilians were killed. However some of the "civilians" killer were working on behalf of Idf by their own admission. It should be worth noting that Hezbollah has the highest ratio of military to civilians casualties in the history of modern warfare. For example during the south lebanon conflict in the 90s 300 israel soldiers were killed vs 4 civilians, one of whom was a reporter embedded with a general who was eliminated in a surgical operation. That's a 99-1 ratio 2605:B100:D4C:A51:0:C:860B:E01 (talk) 17:10, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
False, 8 soldiers and 6 civilians in the Israeli side were killed.
By the way, it has been updated since in the Wiki Hebrew version that 10 soldiers and 6 civilians were killed.
Considering civilians as both civilians and soldiers is misleading. IdanST (talk) 10:45, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
10 or 11 soldiers killed 6 civians killed and 3 soldiers in accidents. Not sure what the ambiguity between the 10 or 11 soldiers is caused by 2605:B100:D4C:A51:0:C:860B:E01 (talk) 21:41, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
Totally 10 killed Israeli soldiers in the conflict, so 10 died in the conflict and 46 others died in accidents, 3 of them under the Israeli Northern Command, but not due to the conflict (soldiers die each year by accidents like speeding or messing with ammmunition etc.).
By the way, I'm shocked that the main template shows 44-61 civilians killed in Lebanon and implies 0 Israeli civilians died. IdanST (talk) 10:26, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
three were killed in accidents directly related to operations in the north, 2 in a tank accident on the lebanese border, one by munitions explosion and are listed in official casualties. See the hyperlink in casualties section 100.43.116.198 (talk) 05:25, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present) and Syrian civil war

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Procedural close: There is no reason this should be an RfC rather than a regular discussion. See WP:RFCBEFORE. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 09:50, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Should this conflict be included as part of Iran-Israel conflict during the Syrian civil war or not? Wendylove (talk) 22:35, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Agreed with Selfstudier, let’s do rfcbefore first and maybe elaborate on the reasons for your request should you choose to do another RfC. FortunateSons (talk) 18:30, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Where is the RFCbefore? I don't understand the question either.Selfstudier (talk) 11:32, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ambulance

https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan-news/defense/725453/ 2.55.173.209 (talk) 13:35, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

30 march

"On 30 March, Reuters reported that an Israeli strike had injured three UN observers and a translator who were monitoring hostilities along the Blue Line. Israel denied involvement in the attack" Later, lebanonian people blamed Hezbollah according to this source [8] 2.55.190.48 (talk) 10:35, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 11 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. – robertsky (talk) 15:03, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present) → Israel–Lebanon–Syria conflict (2023–present) – The article covers not just the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict in Lebanon, but the conflict in Syria as well. As the casualties list shows only about half the casualties are Hezbollah, the rest are Syrian, Iranian and Palestinian combatants. In this case, the "Israel-Lebanon-Syria" will imply the location of where the conflict has occurred, not the participants (as recommended by WP:NCWWW). Indeed, it would be WP:CONSISTENT with 2006 Lebanon war and South Lebanon conflict (1985–2000) , which are both named after places the conflict happened rather than the combatants. VR (Please ping on reply) 03:01, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - The current conflict is due to Hezbollah's reaction following the Israel-Hamas war. Syria and Lebanon are not an official and acting player in the conflict. The discussed conflict remains mostly between Israel and Hezbollah with the occasional interception of Hamas, AMAL and other backed Iranian groups.
The unfortunate casualties are a consequence of the conflict and operations between Israel and Hezbollah.
The current conflict is a completely separate event then the previous Lebanon war and there is no reason or advantage in making them part of a chain.
Therefor the current title of the article reflects the body of the article discussing the current conflict and the forces operating in it. OliveTree39 (talk) 12:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
"The unfortunate casualties" - I don't think anyone is denying that Israel has deliberately targeted Syrian and Iranian military personnel and assets. Its not like Syria and Iran are caught in crossfire, they are very much combatants. VR (Please ping on reply) 18:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Support - As far as I know, there isn't another article that meaningfully covers the events in Syria and attacks on Hamas and Iranian proxies in Lebanon. The strikes in Syria are clearly significant, and if they're being covered in the article the name should be changed to reflect that. This seems like the best place to put it for now. We can always move things around if later developments warrant adjustment. Unbandito (talk) 22:00, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
Oppose - The events in Syria belong in Iran-Israel conflict during the Syrian civil war, not here. ערן117 (talk) 03:13, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
Reliable sources do not connect the 2024 Israeli bombing of the Iranian embassy in Damascus to the Syrian civil war, but they connect the bombing to the war in Gaza:
  • "[Iran] accused Israel of bombing its embassy complex in Syria on Monday, in a deadly escalation of regional tensions over the war in Gaza..." CNN
  • "following an airstrike that hit the Iranian consulate in Syria...fears grow that an Iranian attack may be imminent — and the war in Gaza may spread." NPR
  • "Tehran will soon strike back for the attack on its embassy in Syria that killed a number of senior commanders. The exchanges have raised fears that the Israel-Hamas war that has devastated the Gaza Strip could escalate into a wider conflict." NBC News
Additionally, given that a Hezbollah member was killed in that airstrike[9] its hard to see how that's not related to this conflict. VR (Please ping on reply) 20:01, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
That Hezbollah member isn't even mentioned in the article. ערן117 (talk) 04:03, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Support per nom. These non-geographical descriptive conflict names have been bogus from the start based on our own guidelines. And as noted, the current title is wayward in terms of accuracy. In Lebanon alone there are other Palestinian groups in play, and then we have the Syria sphere. Israel has also been gleefully bombing lots of non-Hezbollah things. Lebanese villages and farmland for one. Also journalists. And then old grannies and their grandkids out in their clearly civilian cars. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:41, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
Oppose per @OliveTree39 and @ערן117, additionally/particularly due to the context of the weighting of this article and conflict and a 'common sense application' of who the specific combatants are; almost no one is calling the Vietnam War the "Second Indochina War" in common parlance (due to the involvement of Laos). When someone is referring to the main part of the conflict, there are two primary belligerents, and neither of them is Libanon or Syria (additional weighting criteria like shared responsibility do not apply). It is also a longer and more unwieldy title.
Regarding geographical descriptions, it wasn't the first use of state vs. armed group/armed group in conflict, see: War against the Islamic State, Hezbollah involvement in the Syrian civil war, or of broadly-used euphemisms: The Troubles. FortunateSons (talk) 07:49, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
Oppose: Most events that have occurred in Syria involve Hezbollah and its funder Iran so I'd rather have "state vs armed group". Proposed title also suggests that states of Lebanon, Israel and Syria are fighting each other which they are not.
Prodrummer619 (talk) 18:20, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
Oppose Conflict is mostly limited to Hezbollah attacks on Israel, and Israeli retaliation against Hezbollah (which occasionally cause collateral damage to Syrian Army and Iran-backed militiamen).
Ecrusized (talk) 09:24, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Oppose But if so, all losses suffered in Syria to be excluded of the article and Battle box. Is misleading to consider those losses when the name and content exlude Syria.Mr.User200 (talk) 23:43, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Oppose Makes it sound like a three-way war and for some reason reminds me of the War of the Triple Alliance. Plus, at the very least the Lebanese state has not been in active conflict. Borgenland (talk) Borgenland (talk) 17:48, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
Oppose. I appreciate the reason for this proposal (and in particular Iskandar323's point that Hezbollah is in alliance with other groups and that Israel has struck non-Hezbollah targets) but I am opposed (a) because the name would be very confusing and counterintuitive (per Borgenland), (b) because although Hezbollah has allies and although civilians are caught up, it is Hezbollah who are the primary belligerants on that side, and (c) because Hezbollah is not just located in Lebanon but also in Syria so leaving the placenames out is not in any way misleading. I think that the sentence at the top of the infobox ("Part of the Hezbollah–Israel conflict amidst the Israel–Hamas war, Iran–Israel proxy conflict and Iran–Israel conflict during the Syrian civil war") does the work of showing the bigger picture it is part of. However, I agree with Mr.User200 that the Syrian deaths don't fit in the infobox. BobFromBrockley (talk) 11:00, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Support civilians have also been targeting by Israel whereas they have all the power to strike with precise surgical touches, it is not just Israel–Hezbollah Conflict anymore. Deblinis (talk) 12:36, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
Oppose. The conflict (or rather an ongoing war) is between Israel and Hezbollah. Yes, the Syrian Hezbollah can also be involved. Sure, just as in any other war, the people who live at the affected territories (Lebanon and Syria) will suffer. But this should not affect naming of the page, which is consistent with WP:COMMON NAME. My very best wishes (talk) 17:24, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Update casualties

https://www.timesofisrael.com/reservist-succumbs-to-wounds-sustained-in-hezbollah-drone-attack/ 2605:B100:D4E:1E32:0:9:A969:1F01 (talk) 19:33, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Kiryat Shmona

user:TheAwesomeAtom. Direct hits Many fires near Highway 90 and near Kiryat Shmona due to 35 launches from Lebanon.

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/h1g5wcjmc#autoplay 77.127.183.251 (talk) 21:17, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, updating now! TheAwesomeAtom (talk) 21:27, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Hezbollah deaths are inconsistent

We know for sure that a total of 297 Hezbollah members have died. However, 42 are listed to have died in Syria and 267 in Lebanon, summing up to 309. That means that there are twelve Hezbollah deaths that did not happen, most likely due to editors seeing things like "two Hezbollah killed in airstrike in Naquroa" and then adding two to the Lebanese count, not realizing that another editors has already done so. I find it likely that the phantom twelve deaths are in the Lebanese count, as the Syrian count has been static at 42 for quite some time. However, I won't change the Lebanon count from 267 to 255 without until I get some feedback on this, due to the fact that I could theoretically be wrong about Syria being the correct count and Lebanon being the wrong one. What do you all think? TheAwesomeAtom (talk) 21:40, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Edit request - correct some of the casualties data

It seems that the numbers of deaths under casualties and losses is different than the numbers in the referenced articles.

1. Please change "20 soldiers killed (3 non-combat)" to "14 soldiers killed (3 non-combat)" as these are the numbers mentioned in the sources. 2. Please change "89 civilians killed in Lebanon" to "82 civilians killed in Lebanon" as this is the number used in the source. 3. Please change "15 Syrian civilians killed" to "10 Syrian civilians killed". Source 31 is very outdated and mentions only 5 killed civilian and probably should be removed. Source 32 is more up to date and mentions 10 killed civilian. Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 10:45, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Drine on a mall

you have to add: https://www.ynet.co.il/blogs/244dayswar 2.55.181.101 (talk) 17:03, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Hezbollah

hezbollah death toll is 338/339 KIA. However I agree is not a all out war for it to be labeled as such. Conflict remains satisfactory term for now till however long. 109.144.19.150 (talk) 17:17, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

That death toll is approx 342-344 as of now. Hezbollah 91.216.55.150 (talk) 13:23, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 8 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 17:54, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present) → Israel–Hezbollah war (2023–present) – 173.72.3.91 (talk) 15:59, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Change article name to Israel–Hezbollah war (2023–present) 173.72.3.91 (talk) 20:29, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

its more of an attrition conflict than a war since no battles have happend yet Waterlover3 (talk) 16:15, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
Oppose Level of fighting does not deem it so. Borgenland (talk) 16:36, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
Oppose – Not officially a war yet. Chomik! (talk?) 16:05, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
Oppose – as WP:FUTURE. Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:30, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Support Comment – fighting between Israel and hezbollah has been going on for more than 8 months — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.72.3.91 (talk) 20:03, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Note that unsigned IP editor was the same proponent of this poorly-written proposal. Borgenland (talk) 05:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Might add that, in move requests, the nomination implies support for the rename. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 02:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
Oppose No Battles, No changes in territory (frontline), although casualties are heavy enough to be considered a war but that alone doesn't constitute a valid reason Waleed (talk) 05:33, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit request - add an updated number of deplaced people

https://www.newsweek.com/us-issues-warning-israel-lebanon-border-1912323 this source mentions 200k israelis have been evacuated from northern israel since oct 8th i think its best we add this number rather 96k from all the way in december 2023 Waterlover3 (talk) 11:22, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Done Waleed (talk) 02:48, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Evacuated parts of northern Israel on the map

I would recommend changing the color of the dashed line to something that contrasts more with the blue, if possible. Alternatively I suggest coloring the area a different shade or striping it. Evaporation123 (talk) 19:23, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

https://www.newsweek.com/us-issues-warning-israel-lebanon-border-1912323 this source mentions that 200k israelis have been deplaced from northern israel Waterlover3 (talk) 14:53, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
@Waterlover3, I've added the updated number Waleed (talk) 02:49, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Edit request - change to "11 civilians killed in Israel"

Please change in the infobox from "10 civilians killed in Israel" to "11 civilians killed in Israel". Source used is source 38. Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 10:49, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

The numbers are updated Waleed (talk) 02:52, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

IDF casualties

What happened to IDF casualties? They used to stand at 21 dead, now its 19. Has there been a revision towards lower death toll? Gorgedweller (talk) 12:24, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 June 2024

add Yahya Sinwar to Commanders and leaders section as Hamas is in the Belligerents section and he is the leader of Hamas 173.72.3.91 (talk) 03:20, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. M.Bitton (talk) 18:43, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Change the nb of casualties

The Israeli Representative to the UN announced that 150 Israeli Soldiers were killed and 15.000 were wounded on the northern front InfiniteValrath (talk) 02:23, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

source please? Waterlover3 (talk) 09:30, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
https://x.com/lironza/status/1804549664693199140?s=46 At around 40 seconds from the account of the consul general of Israel Slicer2101 (talk) 14:50, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
can we get this updated plz - 150 deaths and 15k injured. seems accurate as it was 2k causalities from the first 2-3 months before northern hospitals stopped reporting
https://x.com/lironza/status/1804549664693199140?s=46 Shawarma313 (talk) 07:02, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Edit request - update Hezbollah and allies casualties

Hi, there are some mistakes in Hezbollah and it's allies casualties:

  1. Please change in Lebanon from 389 to 289 Hezbollah members. Reason: According to the source - "total death toll of Hezbollah fighters to 350". Reducing the 61 killed in Syria results in 289 not 389 (probably a typo).
  2. Please change "450 Hezbollah members" to "350 Hezbollah members", for the same reason.
  3. Please change "18 civilians killed in Syria" to "15 civilians killed in Syria". Reasons: Source 36: "since the war on Gaza in October ... two civilians dead" for 2023. Source 37: "13 civilians ... dead" for 2024. Together it sums up to 15.

Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 09:27, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Name change?

In the inevitable event of an all out Israel lebanon/hezbollah war, would it be better to rename to war instead of conflict? DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 13:45, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 July 2024

add July 2024 section to events as July has began and this conflict is still ongoing 173.72.3.91 (talk) 20:01, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

 Already done PianoDan (talk) 21:47, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

should this be included in the Header?

Recently, Anthony Blinken, current American secretary of state has made the following statement:

The inability of Israelis to return to settlements and homes in the north of the country led to Anthony Blinken stating that Israel had effectively "lost sovereignty in the northern quadrant of its country".[1]

someone as high up as Blinken saying that Israel has effectively lost soveriegnity over the Northern quadrant of Israel is, quite frankly, huge. However, adding this right away to the header could be controversial, so I wanted to ask here first Genabab (talk) 23:56, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Bar'el, Zvi (5 July 2024). "A Full Reoccupation of Gaza Won't Keep Israelis Safe. It Will Only Fan the Flames". Haaretz. Retrieved 7 July 2024.

Trim units involved?

The "Units involved" section of Template:Infobox military conflict is getting a bit out of hand in my opinion. Its detail makes it long, and it's probably still far from comprehensive. It also adds a lot of sources, some of questionable reliability, that we wouldn't otherwise need.

The infobox docs say: When there is a large number of participants, it may be better to list only the three or four major groups on each side of the conflict, and to describe the rest in the body of the article.

Should we limit it to just "top level" militaries, such as Hezbollah, the IDF, and IRGC? Or is there some middle ground that would keep a bit more detail but not too much? — xDanielx T/C\R 16:20, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 July 2024 (2)

Hezbollah CLAIM their death TOLL is 359 (latest) , the source (l'orient) claims 450 which ONE IS TRUE? 2A00:23C8:180E:EE00:30A5:AD39:AF36:CDE (talk) 20:58, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. PianoDan (talk) 21:47, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I’m not asking for changes asking for verification since numbers of Hezbollah killed is different to that of what has been listed 450. Hezbollah have not claimed 450 have been killed but 365/366. So both can’t be right. Or be listed 365/366-450 killed as such in casualties box. 2A00:23C8:180E:EE00:68AF:96E8:F5A2:9220 (talk) 21:47, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 July 2024

Hezbollah death toll (Kia) is 365/366- according to their figures. can someone please tell me why it’s at 450 (l’orient reference) has that been verified at all. THANKS 2A00:23C8:180E:EE00:68AF:96E8:F5A2:9220 (talk) 21:42, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – macaddct1984 (talk | contribs) 14:14, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 July 2024

Hezbollah death toll should be changed to 372 killed. 450 have not been killed nor verified. hezbollah have not confirmed not posted 450 killed as such by l'orient. 109.144.22.45 (talk) 20:33, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Left guide (talk) 22:41, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

heballa

After the elimination of 4 Hizbollah terrorists by the Radwan force, the terrorist organization responded by firing dozens of rockets at Zefo Israel. A direct hit on a soccer field near a playground in Majdal Shams, the injured - children.

https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/r17nz5zkc#autoplay — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.70.25.92 (talk) 15:58, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Update: At least 30 people were injured - and some were killed - by a direct hit this afternoon (Saturday) from a rocket that exploded on a soccer field near a playground in Majdal Shams. They were hurt while playing football. MDA CEO Eli Bin informed that seven children who were injured are in critical condition. Another ten people were seriously injured, and are being evacuated with the help of MDA and Air Force helicopters to the hospitals. According to MDA, the victims are children and boys between the ages of 10 and 20. "It's a battlefield," Eli Bin described the harsh scenes at the scene
https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/r17nz5zkc#autoplay 87.70.25.92 (talk) 16:38, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Naser, a resident of Majdal Shams told Ynet about the moment of the impact on the soccer field in the village, and said that "this is the first time there has been a fall here. There was an alarm, I didn't have time to put my hands on my head - and there was an explosion. It exploded in less than half a second."
https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hyxlbozk0#autoplay 87.70.25.92 (talk) 16:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
https://www.mako.co.il/news-military/2024_q2/Article-e62124960d4f091026.htm?sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=173113802h 87.70.25.92 (talk) 16:56, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
User:Pachu Kannan 87.70.25.92 (talk) 16:58, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Hello. Please see WP:EDITREQ. Pachu Kannan (talk) 18:03, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Please see WP:ERW and click on the page is protected to make an edit request. Pachu Kannan (talk) 18:07, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Few edit request

First of all in June 2024 section: "Six Israeli soldiers and five civilians were injured while fighting fires sparked by Hezbollah missiles near Kiryat Shmona. Acting Minister of Foreign Affairs of Iran made his first overseas visit as foreign minister to Lebanon, during which he confirmed that the Iranian government was engaged in negotiations with the United States hosted by Oman. Forest fires in northern Israel were erupted the entire week which reportedly resulted in 2,500 acres of land burnt and the hospitalization of 11 people due to smoke inhalation."

The first and the last sentences talk about the same event, and should be condensed into one (the latter is more informative, so it probably be the one that is kept, only "11 people" should probably be changed to "six Israeli soldiers and five civilians").

And also in July 2024 section:

"US-made Boeing manufactured Apache warplanes were used in the strike."

AH-64 Apache is an attack helicopter, not a "warplane". It should probably be a link as well since it's the first mention of it in this page (preferably linking to the Boeing AH-64 Apache#Israel section of the page). Whutever1 (talk) 13:38, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done, thank you! Chomik! (talk?) 15:56, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Renewed evacuations in northern israel

I have just been evacuated from northern Israel for the army is gearing up for a retaliatory offensive into Lebanon. I have been told that the offensive is set to begin 45 minutes from now but have heard nothing. Prepare the editors for impartial updates on the subject 2A01:73C0:501:D1EA:A05A:AA41:782:678C (talk) 19:10, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Source? Waleed (talk) 16:52, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
"Trust me bro" ;-) Eitan Drutman (talk) 03:35, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
If it is true , it is a limited operation. And still, why would you tell such information to the Internet? Why would you risk the soldiers who are protecting you? You putted them in a huge danger! You could have got some of them killed! As an Israeli, you should be ashamed. Eitan Drutman (talk) 03:37, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Edit request - change 19 soldiers killed to 18 soldiers killed

Hi, in the casualties it says: "19 soldiers killed (3 non-combat)". Please change it to "18 soldiers killed (3 non-combat)", as this is the number used in the refrenced article.

In the description of the amount of Israeli soldiers casualties the article is being cited as:

"Fifteen soldiers and a local security officer have also been killed in attacks claimed by the Hezbollah and Palestinian Islamic Jihad terror groups on the border with Lebanon since the fighting started... The military's list also includes a soldier killed by friendly fire in the West Bank, a soldier killed due to malfunctioning ammunition on the Lebanon border, two soldiers killed in a tank accident in northern Israel, and a number of other deadly incidents amid the war but not directly related to the fighting."

But the "soldier killed by friendly fire in the West Bank" part isn't relevant to this article (and also covered by another wikipedia article here).

Additionaly, I suggest shortening the added description only to the relevnat parts:

"Fifteen soldiers and a local security officer have also been killed in attacks claimed by the Hezbollah and Palestinian Islamic Jihad terror groups on the border with Lebanon since the fighting started... The military's list also includes ... a soldier killed due to malfunctioning ammunition on the Lebanon border, two soldiers killed in a tank accident in northern Israel"

Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 09:58, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

you lost all credibility when you said "Palestinian Islamic Jihad terror groups" Waterlover3 (talk) 11:54, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
They're quoting this article [10] Chomik! (talk?) 13:29, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the quote that already appears in this wiki article, not something that I wrote. Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 07:59, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Well, the PIJ is, in fact, a terror group. Eitan Drutman (talk) 03:48, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
I think the number includes the security officer killed. I clarified that in the infobox. Chomik! (talk?) 14:11, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
Are you sure? As I understand it, there are 15 soldiers and security officers that have been killed in combat. In addition, there are 3 that were killed due to non-combat incidents (but related to the Hezbollah-Israel conflict).
Anyway, thank you for the clarification that tou have made. Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 08:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
Shortened the quote for sake of clarification as you requested. EkoGraf (talk) 16:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 31 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved at this time; the IP editor has been blocked for disruption, had recently filed an identical request that was uniformly opposed, and the proposal here has not received any support. Dekimasuよ! 04:53, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present) → Israel–Hezbollah war (2023–present) – It seems like an all out war now Hezbollah has struck in golan heights of israel killing 12 people and israel has struck inside beirut targeting a hezbollah commander so i think it is fair to call it a war not just a conflict anymore. [1] 173.72.3.91 (talk) 15:03, 31 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Bensci54 (talk) 16:01, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

It is not yet a war. It will be counted as a war only if there will be thousands of killed people on both sides together or if there will be a ground invation by either sides. Eitan Drutman (talk) 03:21, 8 August 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Inclusion of minor Individuals in the "commanders and leader" section

I don't think individuals like Lieutenant colonel Alim Abdallah, or Ali Hussein Barji should be considered among their respective sides "commanders and leaders". These are mid level commanders at most, there are probably 20 Lieutenant colonels of the idf currently deployed along the Lebanese border... 2A13:54C2:F000:50D0:A958:E79A:1629:FD1E (talk) 17:52, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

A valid point. I'm not knowledgeable enough to remove the names. Anyone? — kashmīrī TALK 22:22, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
@Kashmiri: It appears that when a high-ranking member of the organizations listed in the infobox dies, their name is indiscriminately added to the list. I agree that the list needs cleaning, and I think that only the names of the highest ranking leaders should appear. Nythar (💬-🍀) 23:05, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
We can start by removing the two names I suggested, I'm not super familiar with hezbollah internal hierarchy, so if somebody has any additional input, that would help.
What I'm certain of is that a lieutenant colonel shouldn't be considered among the idf 'leaders'.... 2A13:54C2:F000:50D0:A958:E79A:1629:FD1E (talk) 08:58, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
I'd remove everyone except:
- Hassan Nasrallah
- Naim Qassem
- Benjamin Netanyahu
- Yoav Gallant
- Ori Gordin
The list is artificially inflated at the moment because it seems like any kill, no matter how insignificant is being added as if they were significant. -- RisingTzar (talk) 18:07, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
we sould maybe listen to hezbollah when they announc the death of their members and keep Taleb Abdullah, Wissam al-Tawil, Muhammad Nimah Nasser. when annoucing their death, hezbollah called them and only them (till shukr death) 'commander" https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hezbollah-confirms-death-of-senior-commander-in-idf-strike-in-south-lebanon/
we should also keep shukr, he was even higher but probably remove Barji, there are tree dozen hezbollah senior opperatives who got killed
https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/israeli-assassinations-top-hamas-and-hezbollah-officials Anticonstitutionnelist (talk) 13:43, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
I disagree, I don't think we can trust them when they call them "commanders" as they are not impartial in this case. It's important to recognize that that Hezbollah, Iran, etc all glorify killings of their own members as martyrs. It's used for their propaganda as virtuous and a rallying cry. RisingTzar (talk) 18:26, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
IMO the best solution is to find sources where they are clearly presented as MAJOR leaders/commanders PRIOR to their killing. We cannot rely on how they are glorified after the fact. RisingTzar (talk) 18:29, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
I second this. But I would add Herzi Halevi as he is the chief of staff of the idf, and Fuad Shukr, as he is the former chief of staff for hezbollah (before he died) 2A13:54C1:F000:2FF:E70C:3E6B:6186:AB4D (talk) 12:13, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
Agreed, this sounds reasonable to me. RisingTzar (talk) 21:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Update Hezbollah casualties

I don't understand why update the IDF casualties but not Hezbollah when the number of the Hezbollah casualties stand above 400. the number in the page is still 386. Teh FT678 (talk) 15:59, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The death toll for Hezbollah is 416/417 now. 2A00:23C8:180E:EE00:95BD:BD07:425C:DAC2 (talk) 21:22, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 August 2024

Hezbollah Death Toll should be UPDATED TO 416/417 kia. 2A00:23C8:180E:EE00:95BD:BD07:425C:DAC2 (talk) 21:21, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. MadGuy7023 (talk) 22:01, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Hezbollah Declaration

Hezbollah has issued an official declaration of war per Al-Arabiya and Associated Press 2601:153:901:2040:1840:897B:8043:F8AF (talk) 13:13, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Is there a link to the article? The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 15:23, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

17 Sep pager attack

Reports are now that up to 3,000 Hezbollah militants were injured in today's pager attack [11]. Since this is the first time a tactic of this sort has succeeded on such a wide scale, it probably deserves its own article. 152.130.15.102 (talk) 20:23, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

It does have its own article, 2024 Lebanon pager explosions Chomik! (talk?) 20:37, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Mettula

attack there. https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/ryjm1z5t0 According to the head of the council, more than 30 houses and public buildings were damaged to one degree or another because of the attack ." Half of the houses in the council have been damaged since the beginning of the war.

https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan-news/local/802360/ https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/hytzk0qpr 87.70.22.51 (talk) 13:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Added to the Casualties and damage section. Chomik! (talk?) 15:02, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Edit request: Wrong date

The sentence "The Security Cabinet of Israel approved a new war aim of returning evacuated residents to the north of Israel, adding to the goals of destroying Hamas and liberating the hostages." should be moved from 17 September to 16 September. Reason: The source https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cglkkrj94ldo says "The decision was taken by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's security cabinet late on Monday." Where Monday = 16 September 2024. Professor Tournesol (talk) 02:47, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. Lewisguile (talk) 08:12, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Lede

@Viewsridge: Please elaborate why you reverted my edits to the lede, without giving an edit summary? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: Looks like an edit conflict, I didn't mean to revert anything, I was only updating the death toll. You can restore your edits, I'm not sure which parts I have reverted. Viewsridge (talk) 09:57, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
@Viewsridge: In that case please self-revert as I would be violating 1RR if I revert you. Thank you. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:43, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
@Makeandtoss: Which part to you want reverted? The lede. Also this is not a 1rr violation since I gave you my consent to revert. Viewsridge (talk) 14:01, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
@Viewsridge: Unfortunately, that was also my impression until I found out WP guidelines are implemented literally. Fourth lede paragraph as: "Significant escalation occurred in September 2024, starting with the Israel's 2024 Lebanon pager explosions, and followed by daily Israeli airstrikes that included assassination of senior Hezbollah commanders. Israel stated that its attacks would continue until Israeli citizens in near the northern border could return home safely. The deadliest and most widespread casualties in Lebanon resulted from Israeli air strikes on 23 September that killed at least 558 people and injured more than 1,835 including children, women and paramedics." Makeandtoss (talk) 14:05, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
I think I tried to implement what you want. Not sure, for it to be precise you will have to edit it yourself, I guess after waiting for a day. I'm not as active on Wikipedia as I was so I will probably won't be returning to this article unless a significant escalation takes place. Viewsridge (talk) 14:26, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 August 2024

Hezbollah death toll should be updated to 418 killed. Here is the citation on this live from L'orient-Le jour at 09:13 H [2] Anticonstitutionnelist (talk) 12:03, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: the death toll is already sourced. M.Bitton (talk) 01:18, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/idf-hits-beirut-retaliation-golan-majdal-shams-lebanon-rcna164322
  2. ^ https://www.lorientlejour.com/article/1424315/blinken-en-egypte-les-echanges-de-tirs-restent-intenses-au-sud-du-liban-jour-319-de-la-guerre-de-gaza.html

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 September 2024

The Sheeba farms area is not occupied. It was a disputed area between Lebanon Syria and Israel. The UN recognised that Israel withdrew to international borders in May 2000 https://www.reuters.com/article/world/un-cites-confusion-over-maps-of-shebaa-farms-idUSN30254429/

Lebanon continues to call an additional area it calls the Sheeba farms for political purposes only. Harold.whatever (talk) 08:28, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done This is not a proper edit request. In addition, you clearly do not understand the history. Zerotalk 11:22, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Edit Request: Update the Lebanese casualty figures

Currently the infobox states "150+ civilians killed in Lebanon", however this is now out of date.

Today's (23rd September 2024) air strikes have killed 492 people, according to the Lebanese Health Ministry, as cited in this BBC News article.

I am formally producing an edit request, to request that this significant update to the casualty figures be made to the infobox (and wider article too, ideally). Neutral Editor 645 (talk) 22:00, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

It's not known how many of the deaths were civilians or militants as of now. I think it's best we wait for more details before updating the casualties. Chomik! (talk?) 22:08, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
It might make more sense not to distinguish at all, since it's going to be a contested number either way? Lewisguile (talk) 18:40, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

List with all wars of israel

Can we make a complete page with all the active wars that israel is committing to every country, every new attack can be listed there instead Nickodath (talk) 20:52, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

That article exists, see List of wars involving Israel. Chomik! (talk?) 01:24, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 September 2024

454/455 Hezbollah Members/Fighters have been KILLED not 476. 300+ CRITICALLY/SEVERELY WOUNDED should also be listed BELOW. 2A02:6B6F:F78B:4400:19DA:EF18:2819:B306 (talk) 14:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Bunnypranav (talk) 14:09, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Add A Fact: "Israel strikes Lebanon after Hezbollah leader killed"

I found a fact that might belong in this article. See the quote below

Israel Strikes Lebanon Again After Killing Hezbollah Leader

The fact comes from the following source:

https://www.nytimes.com/

Here is a wikitext snippet to use as a reference: 

 {{Cite web |title=The New York Times - Breaking News, US News, World News and Videos |url=https://www.nytimes.com/ |website=www.nytimes.com |date=2024-09-29 |access-date=2024-09-29 |language=en |quote=Israel Strikes Lebanon Again After Killing Hezbollah Leader}}

This post was generated using the Add A Fact browser extension.

Suddenblast1 (talk) 01:56, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

The link just takes us to the NYT homepage. This can't be done unless you give specific details about the wording you'd like us to use, including any RSes. Lewisguile (talk) 12:53, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Ali Karaki

Apparently dead according to many sources. 185.182.71.28 (talk) 17:16, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

No UN resolution ever has called Shebba Farms Lebanese territory

Shebba Farms is occupied syrian territory, syria has never officially transferred the territory to Lebanon despite Hezbollah's claims, United Nations Security Council Resolution 1701 does not mention Shebab in the withdraw to the blue line which israel did. https://press.un.org/en/2006/sc8808.doc.htmhttps://unsco.unmissions.org/sites/default/files/s_res_17012006.pdf Monochromemelo1 (talk) 02:57, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Can you make your request in the format "Change X —> Y", giving exact wording you'd like us to use and identifying where the change is needed? We can't make any changes otherwise.
I can't presently find anywhere that says Shebaa Farms is Lebanese territory, only that it's occupied by Israel (which would be true whether it was Lebanese or Syrian). There's also a reference to Israel occupying "Lebanese territory", but this is in reference to UNSCR 1701, in which the northern half of Ghajar and the adjacent land is considered Lebanese while the south is considered Israeli. Israel currently occupies the north of Ghajar and has a fence that extends further north, into area that is unambiguously considered southern Lebanon from the POV of UNSCR 1701. So, from that perspective, that is also true, even if the village of Ghajar itself were ultimately found to be Syrian or Israeli. Lewisguile (talk) 08:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 24 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. – wbm1058 (talk) 17:23, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present) → Third Lebanon War – Due to the current event that is taking place in Lebanon. Some of the news outlets started to call it the Third Lebanon War. The source of it is from The Jerusalem Post article when the security official said "I don't think it's too early to refer to these events in the Northern as the 'Third Lebanon War." along with the Atlantic Council saying that "The length of the third war will depend largely on how quickly Hezbollah will come to the table." It would be better if this paged was renamed and move instead of creating a new one in my opinion but what do you think? ... CrusaderToonamiUK (talk) 21:24, 24 September 2024 (UTC) WP:ARBECR Selfstudier (talk) 20:04, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose Even assuming current events do spark a Third Lebanon War (which seems likely), such an article should likely be its own, with this article used to describe the prelude and smaller clashes prior to the proper war (which will likely be 'officially' called if/when Israeli forces cross the border). No need to jump the gun here. BSMRD (talk) 23:04, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
The strikes in recent days have been far deadlier than the past few months. This is probably the start of another war. ImYourTurboLover (talk) 00:28, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 00:43, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Agree. This page should be moved to Third Lebanon war or something similar. - Benjamin Netanyahu even stated yesterday in a press conference that "Israel’s War is not with you, it’s with Hezbollah", I have attached my source.[1] Gonzafer001 (talk) 04:23, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.nbcnews.com/video/netanyahu-tells-lebanon-citizens-to-get-out-of-harm-s-way-amid-hezbollah-clashes-219953221601
The quote of what Netanyahu said seems like a justification to keep the current title. Please clarify. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:48, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

:Question Given this has been treated up til now as a 'spillover' of the Hamas War, should we consider them one conflict or not? If not, or some sort of compromise pick, would we need an article covering everything in a broader sense (IE: Fifth Arab Israeli War for this and the Hamas war and the Houthi actions) — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheBrodsterBoy (talk • contribs) 05:15, 25 September 2024 (UTC) WP:ARBECR

There's honestly an argument for that as a kind of "summary" article. There's been direct conflict with Palestine, Syria, Iran and the quasi-state of Hezbollah (army stronger than Lebanon Armed Forces). </MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 14:01, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Oppose Not described as a war by any reliable sources, so far. Viewsridge (talk) 09:59, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Oppose. Even though it's definitely a war now, it's still not being called that in most RS (hesitance with no ground invasion maybe). Even those sources aren't officially calling it that by name, merely talking about it as in it's the third war after the civil war and 2006 war. Even if it was, the common name wouldn't be Third Lebanon War. </MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 13:58, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Strong oppose for now. We should go by WP:COMMONNAME for now, unless or until another policy becomes more relevant. I think we need more RSes to lead on this. Lewisguile (talk) 18:42, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Wait It will probably be called a war down the line but I'd wait until Israel invades Lebanon and starts capturing territory, right now RS does not refer to it as such. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 19:04, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

This RM is opened out of process by a non EC editor (only permitted to make edit requests per WP:ARBECR) and should be closed. Selfstudier (talk) 20:05, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree with Selfstudier. The only expression that might indicate support for the proposal is the comment from Gonzafer001, which is rather unclear/confusing. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:51, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reorganize "Events" section

Timeline of the Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)

The "Events" section is disorganized. It is split up into 3 sections, 2 only covering up to 13 October, and the rest of time is dedicated in subsections of the last "Events" subsection.

You could make only 3 sections partially based on the template at right, "Initial clashes", "Escalation of conflict" (after the ceasefire ends), and last section as "Major Israeli attacks begin", beginning with the pager explosions, and then make subsections for specific events. Also, link to the specific timeline pages for each period or event as necessary instead of just the overarching index one. </MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 07:41, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I noticed that when doing a pass for WP:NPOV. It starts detailing the current attacks but then jumps back in time. I think a chronological order makes the most sense. I would probably split Background to cover only historic stuff (pre-8 October 2023), and then move everything else into new sections based on the phase of the conflict. You can't go too far wrong with following the chronology. Lewisguile (talk) 08:02, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

War

Should we rename this page incase of a actual war between Israel and Lebanon or make a new article? PopularGames (talk) 20:28, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Many sources are saying a war has already broken out or is about to. But the more important point is that this page isn't about the war. Its about the clashes that preceded a war, which is a notable topic in its own right. The article on war should be a new article.VR (Please ping on reply) 00:01, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
I've started an article here: Third Lebanon War, though I'm wondering if I should draftify it at this point. @Prodrummer619, your thoughts? VR (Please ping on reply) 00:21, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
If it escalates, we can make the article with yesterday as its starting date The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 11:44, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I suggest changing the name to Israel's War on Lebanon. Until now, another incessant attack by the IDF towards the neighborhood in Beirut, Lebanon has been reported. Source https://www.rt.com/news/604885-israel-invade-lebanon-media/ 181.197.42.215 (talk) 23:14, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

The Lebanese Ministry of Health announced that 105 people died and another 359 were injured in the attacks, this is typical of a war and not a conflict. I suggest changing the title of Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present) to Israel's War on Lebanese Territory. 181.197.42.215 (talk) 03:59, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Imo if Israel-Hamas is labeled as war, then Israel-Hezbollah should also be labeled as war, it already escalated beyond being a mere "conflict" Lonapak (talk) 16:43, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Archiving discussion, WP:ARBECR. Selfstudier (talk) 16:45, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Third Israeli-lebanese war

Israel began their offensive in lebanon on the 30th of sepmtember 2001:9E8:6C3D:F900:90D1:5401:ECA6:FF46 (talk) 19:10, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

You are referencing what Jeremy Bob from Jerusalem Post just tweeted out. He elaborates that Israeli media right now is under censorship. All signs point toward the invasion having already began, but we need to wait for more official reporting. PaulRKil (talk) 19:19, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Best not to engage with non EC editors, as per WP:ARBECR, they may only make edit requests. Archiving this. Selfstudier (talk) 20:14, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Israel's alleged occupation of Lebanon


  • What I think should be changed
    −
    Israel continues to occupy Lebanese territories, and has repeatedly breached Lebanese airspace, waters, and borders.
    		+
    Israel has repeatedly breached Lebanese airspace, water, and borders.
  • Why it should be changed: The article matter-of-factly states, "Israel continues to occupy Lebanese territories". This is not the view of the United Nations. Per Wikipedia's own article on Shebaa Farms, on 20 January 2005, the UN Secretary-General's report on Lebanon stated "The continually asserted position of the Government of Lebanon that the Blue Line is not valid in the Shab'a farms area is not compatible with Security Council resolutions. The Council has recognized the Blue Line as valid for purposes of confirming Israel’s withdrawal pursuant to resolution 425 (1978)."

The United Nations does not recognize the assertion that Israel occupies Lebanese territory. Therefore, the assertion should not be made in the article without at least mentioning that this is not the legal consensus, but rather a minority view of only Lebanon and the Arab League.

  • References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):[1]

Chupster811 (talk) 20:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Please provide secondary sources which are reliable in support of your edit request. The United Nations reference which you provided is a primary source. TarnishedPathtalk 06:26, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
 Not done: Alternate changes made instead, based on discussion and secondary sources provided. Lewisguile (talk) 15:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
"the United Nations verified that Israel had completed its withdrawal from Lebanon according to the demarcation that its observers had set to monitor the withdrawal (known as the Blue Line)."[12]
"The UN...concluded that the Israeli withdrawal from south Lebanon was indeed complete."[13]
"The Blue Line also extended along the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights, seeking to replicate the boundary between Lebanon and Syria. It was there that Hezbollah invented its pretext for perpetuating its status as Lebanon’s “resistance,” claiming that part of the occupied Golan Heights—the so-called “Shebaa Farms”—was really occupied Lebanese territory. This claim—dismissed by the UN—persists to this day."[14] Chupster811 (talk) 07:34, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
The situation is described in https://unifil.unmissions.org/sites/default/files/unifilpresskit.pdf under the heading Shab'a Farms (p.6) Also the Blue Line is only a provisional border and there is an unresolved claim by Lebanon "a similar issue took place in the village of Shebʿa. Israel began to construct and fence off an area along the border that is claimed by the Lebanese government and citizens of Shebʿa, the area known as the Shebʿa Farms, which are adjacent to the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights (Al Arabiya English 2016; National News Agency 2016).1 Despite the ownership of the farms by Lebanese villagers, UNIFIL had declared the contested area as being in Israeli-occupied Syrian territory, and therefore outside of Lebanon. At the time of writing this article during the first half of 2023, there continued to be major border confrontations and escalations between Lebanese residents and Israel, especially in the area of the Shebʿa farms, which are partially occupied by Israel."
Perhaps it should be amended to say something like "According to the Lebanese government..."?
Any other EC editors have comments? Selfstudier (talk) 10:40, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
@Selfstudier, see my comment below. The sources given upthread only refer to 2000. Your comments only consider Shebaa Farms but don't take into account Ghajar, which is a much simpler situation (Lebanon and Syria appear to disagree with the UN re: Shebaa Farms but Lebanon and the UN agree re: Ghajar). In the same source you quote (p. 5), the UN says: "Discussions in the Tripartite focus on violations of the Blue Line, including the continued occupation and requirement of the IDF to withdraw from northern Ghajar and the adjacent area, IDF air violations, and the findings of UNIFIL technical investigations." Lewisguile (talk) 10:51, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
@Chupster811, all your sources seem to refer to Israel pulling out in 2000. But UNSCR 1701 is from 2006 (after they pulled out in 2000), and UNIFIL's position is that both Israel and Hezbollah have outstanding obligations under UNSCR 1701, and that Israel is occupying Lebanese territory as agreed upon in 2006 (not 2000).[2][3][4] The text you want to change, for example, is cited to UNIFIL's report from 2023, where UNIFIL claims Israel continues to occupy Lebanese territories, noting northern Ghajar and adjacent lands specifically.[5] So the 2000 statement form the UN is irrelevant. I'm paraphrasing parts of the WP article on Ghajar:
According to UNIFIL, the Israeli cabinet voted on 3 December 2006 to hand over northern Ghajar to UNIFIL, but this hasn't happened. Also, a fence has been built around the village which extends 800 meters north of the Blue Line, into southern Lebanon.[6] From UNIFIL's POV (and Lebanon's), that's the bit about occupation.
UNIFIL also says: "so long as the Israel Defense Forces remain in northern Ghajar, Israel will not have completed its withdrawal from southern Lebanon in accordance with its obligations under resolution 1701 (2006)." It further notes: "Failure to make progress on this issue could become a source of tension and carry the potential for incidents in the future."[7]
From the page on UNSCR 1701:
"Lebanon has also accused Israel of not fully withdrawing from Lebanese territories (northern part of Ghajar village, the Shebaa Farms, and the Kfarchouba hills), and of violating their air and maritime borders.[8]"
As such, we can't make the changes you have requested unless you can show a recent consensus that differs from that of UNIFIL.
Lewisguile (talk) 10:43, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Relevant secondary sources include:
https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-israel-ghajar-tents-hezbollah-96932004b52a728ac1a848dc7f484e7a
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/7/13/why-is-there-a-disputed-border-between-lebanon-and-israel
https://www.csis.org/analysis/coming-conflict-hezbollah
I think there's an argument for clarifying the statement is in regards to Ghajar, since everyone keeps focusing on Shebaa Farms. That may expand the section significantly, but it's not in chronological order at the moment anyway, so it may need some new subheaders and a bit of reorganising. Let me see what I can do. Lewisguile (talk) 11:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
@Chupster811, I have now updated the Background section to clearly specify that it's Ghajar that UNIFIL claims is occupied, not Shebaa Farms. Those claims by UNIFIL are as recent as 2023 and are backed up by numerous secondary sources, so I have included them.
It seems Israel withdrew in 2000, when it retreated behind the Blue Line, and then retook the whole town in 2006 (see: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-07-10/ty-article/un-relays-israeli-request-to-lebanon-to-remove-hezbollah-tent-from-disputed-area/00000189-4033-d765-adeb-4f77604f0000). Only the southern portion of the town is in the Golan Heights according to the UN/Blue Line. The Israeli cabinet then voted to withdraw from the village in 2010 according to the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11772048 and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11775195) although that didn't happen.
Hopefully the new Background section is clearer now. It's also finally in chronological order. Lewisguile (talk) 13:48, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Selfstudier (talk) 14:02, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
No problem. I was looking into the subject anyway as per a similar debate regarding the Shebaa Farms. I've marked the thread as responded to and will archive. Lewisguile (talk) 15:16, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Security Council Condemns Violence along Blue Line Between Israel and Lebanon, Extends Mandate of UNIFIL until 31 July". United Nations Information Service Vienna. Retrieved 30 September 2024.
  2. ^ "UN report says IDF tank fire killed 'clearly identifiable' reporter". The Jerusalem Post. 13 March 2024. Archived from the original on 16 September 2024. Retrieved 25 September 2024.
  3. ^ "'Flagrant violation': Danny Danon demands UNSC condemn Hezbollah, enforce resolution 1701". The Jerusalem Post. 26 August 2024. Archived from the original on 23 September 2024. Retrieved 25 September 2024.
  4. ^ "Implementation of Security Council resolution 1701 (2006) during the period from 21 February to 20 June 2023" (PDF). UN Security Council Resolutions. 13 July 2023.
  5. ^ "Implementation of Security Council resolution 1701 (2006) during the period from 21 February to 20 June 2023" (PDF). UN Security Council Resolutions. 13 July 2023.
  6. ^ Lebanon holding up IDF Ghajar pullout[permanent dead link‍]
  7. ^ UN Security Council document S/2007/641 Archived 29 February 2008 at the Wayback Machine, paragraphs 16 and 71
  8. ^ Identical letters dated 18 June 2007 from the Charge d'affaires a.i. of the Permanent Mission of Lebanon to the United Nations addressed to the Secretary-General and the President of the Security Council: "since the last review of the said resolution, IDF have persistently violated Lebanese air, maritime, and land frontiers in breach of the Blue Line and Security Council resolution 1701... While UNIFIL and LAF deployed south of the Litani several months ago, Israel continues to occupy the northern part of Ghajar village in breach of the Blue Line, and of resolution 1701... Lebanon requests that the Sheba'a Farms and Kfar Shouba hills be liberated from Israeli occupation according to Security Council resolution 425."
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