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October 31

[edit]
October 31, 2017 (2017-10-31) (Tuesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

[Posted] 2017 West Side Highway incident

[edit]
Posted, and will remain so. No need for further commentary. Stephen 06:21, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2017 West Side Highway incident (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ A vehicle-ramming attack in the Lower Manhattan area of New York City kills at least 6 people, with 9 others injured. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ A terrorist driving a truck in the Lower Manhattan area of New York City kills at least 8 people in the name of ISIS, with 15 others injured
News source(s): AP, NYT
Credits:
Nominator's comments: It's still very early for this "incident", but I think the location of the attack combined with the amount of destruction makes this one notable enough for ITN. --Bongwarrior (talk) 20:51, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Off-topic, take it elsewhere. --MASEM (t) 23:25, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, that makes no sense. Firstly as I said before, suicide by cop just involves one person and a cop. It does not involve any bystanders And you keep repeating the myth that guns are so easy to get a hold of. You do need to actually realize that it's not true. Even if it doesn't fit into your anti-US agenda, we should try to stick to facts here. And of course, who said he was attempting martyrdom? He went out to kill people, and he could have been killed by a cop but he just got shot in his ass. Sir Joseph (talk) 22:54, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • And again, what does that have to do with anything? This is NYC where the guns are illegal. That is why he didn't have a real gun. That is why he used a truck. Your need to argue with everyone and every thing is getting tiresome. Sir Joseph (talk) 22:58, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Buy it somewhere else in mainland US then. Trivial. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:27, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You can't, legally. Sir Joseph (talk) 22:31, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@TRM Despite the common perception of the US (and the reality in much of it), firearms are rare in NYC. Handguns and concealed carrying are banned outright unless the holder has a permit (usually only granted to current or former police officers and professional security guards, and a few celebrities who are deemed at risk of stalking), assault weapons have a five-round magazine limit, and the city is full of metal detectors and to get into it one either has to travel by train or drive over a bridge or tunnel, all of which are closely monitored and where vehicles are regularly spot-checked. (The authorities enforce the firearm laws rigorously—when the National Guard were deployed to the city in the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy, even they had to surrender their firearms.) Particularly if one were a foreign national and thus unable to buy a gun out-of-state and smuggle it in, getting an assualt weapon into central Manhattan probably wouldn't be significantly easier than getting one into London. ‑ Iridescent 22:32, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm talking about buying a handgun for a few hundred dollars, or maybe a few for a grand. It's trivial, I absolutely know it is, and to assert otherwise (e.g. that this suspect would only act inside the law) is very peculiar to me. This guy was driving a hired van and it seems perfectly reasonable to assume he could have obtained any kind of weapon from anywhere on mainland USA. That he had paintguns is absurd really. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:37, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Your point still stands but to nitpick he also had a gun who's bullets are like the small ones: except much shorter (sphere?) and 0.177 inches wide instead of 0.22. For comparison the big one is fairly powerful as handguns go, some criminals use the small one for executions but they put it in the mouth and a .25ACP is slightly wider but an attacker was once shot till the gun emptied (4 or 5 times) and had enough time to beat the victim within an inch of death before he bled too much to physically continue. A .177 pellet can hunt small creatures and a regulation paintball gun is limited to 205 mph at the muzzle and bruising a human or making him lose an eye. And hurting like Satan in the testicles. They were invented to tag thicker-skinned cattle different colors from far away and are now used for motivating amateur and professional wargamers to play more realistically. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:44, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Seems that he'd been living in Florida for many years. So he could easily have obtained real guns. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:41, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Why would you say it's trivial? Have you ever purchased a gun in NYC or even in the US? It's not trivial, and in NYC it's most certainly not cheap. Sir Joseph (talk) 22:46, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You're not reading what I'm writing so I'm done with you here. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:49, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have not. Seraphim System (talk) 23:09, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
he is god, what he says goes for eternity and admins are there for life "more equal" @Jimbo Wales:Lihaas (talk) 23:34, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Eight dead, school bus rammed, Governor Cuomo (on the radio, no link) has identified this as a terrorist attack, as has Mayor De Blasio.Yahoo Attacker brandished handguns (at least one was a paintball gun) and was apprehended after being shot in the ass. 21:52, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment until this is confirmed as terrorism not just domestic disgruntlement at something, it needs to wait, the fact that the perp didn't have real weapons is decidedly strange considering the freely available armoury in every village, town, city in the States. We need answers. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:02, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The few gun shops in New York City aren't freely available to most non-criminal citizens over 21 so it's not 100%. There's probably too much population density for letting them all buy a gun to be wise though. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:34, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Off-topic, take it elsewhere. --MASEM (t) 23:25, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
laws vary around the country,its not uniformly "easy". That said I have no idea about NYC...all I know is there public school system is well foreign to ours.Lihaas (talk) 22:17, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's a little more difficult to get firearms in NYC, but certainly not that difficult. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:20, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's much more difficult, especially if you do it legally. Sir Joseph (talk) 22:21, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Buy it somewhere else in mainland US then. Trivial. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:27, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't understand the relevance of your point, but obtaining handguns is trivial even if you don't do it in New York state, you can do it elsewhere and hire a van to drive across state lines fully loaded. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:24, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Bingo. You know why there are so many gun homicides in Chicago even though the state of Illinois has strict gun laws? Neighboring states (like Indiana) have lax gun laws. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:27, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You can't legally buy a handgun out of state. Unless of course you are saying that a criminal won't follow the law, in which case, he'll just buy it illegally anywhere, regardless of laws. Sir Joseph (talk) 22:32, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Of course you can legally buy a handgun outside New York state. How strange to assert otherwise. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:37, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Especially if you've been living in Florida for seven years. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:41, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And how did he bring it to NY? That's illegal. Sir Joseph (talk) 22:43, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And to clarify my comment above, especially with regard to Chicago, you can't legally buy a handgun outside your state of residence. Sir Joseph (talk) 22:45, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Um, it would be trivial to buy it in Florida and drive it to New York. That's fundamentally simple. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:49, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Are you now familiar with interstate transport laws as well? Sir Joseph (talk) 22:59, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed I am. Why would you think the "laws" would prevent someone carrying a weapon across state lines? How many interstate checkpoints monitor every single vehicle between, say, Florida and New York? Do you know how many because I do. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:08, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait clearly significant (terorist attack near the new WTC!), but article needs time to improve. --Jenda H. (talk) 22:22, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait, but lean oppose It makes sense that it is being treated by police to expedite enforcement as a terrorist attack due to what the guy shouted plus being NYC, but that doesn't make it a true terrorism incident. Wait until this is factor is determined, and if it is determined to be such , then it might make sense. But if this isn't terrorism related, then oppose posting this. --MASEM (t) 22:24, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Authorities are currently investigating this as act of terror. It would be original research to say it isn't terrorism when there are no reliable sources saying this. Capitalistroadster (talk) 22:49, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support when the article's up to snuff. Worst terrorist attack in New York since 9/11 (well, I'm sure the suspect will say it was a terror attack, anyway) and of a piece with similar (but deadlier) attacks in Berlin, London, Barcelona and Nice. Daniel Case (talk) 23:06, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for Now it is an act of terrorism but with a low fatality count. Until further developments are made, I’m opposed to posting this. Kirliator (talk) 23:15, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, already significant enough. Article is sufficiently updated and well-sourced. Davey2116 (talk) 23:18, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Now the wait votes predicated on ignorance are now moot, the shooter's name is known, he's an Uzbeki national who shouted allahu akbar, ramming a schoolbus and targetting children, with eight people dead at this point. All authorities are treating this as a terror incident. Article quality may be at issue, but the overall situation is well understood. μηδείς (talk) 23:30, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's enough... this is getting way off topic and in the direction of an uncivil resolution. So let's just stop this. Please. ~Oshwah~(talk) (contribs) 02:13, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Just because he was a foreign national from a country that is know to harbor terrorist does not make this a terrorist act; that's bigotry and racism stereotyping right there that we do not do. Treating the investigate as if it was terrorism as to expedite the process and use key powers to assure citizens' safety is fine, but until the driver's motives are established, we should not be considering it as such, innocent until proven guilty and all that. --MASEM (t) 23:35, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Jesus, Masem, climb down off your high horse. I simply was making the point that the broad facts are now widely known, and the attacker is not an unknown entity. I made no racist comment, and your personal attack is juvenile projection, not reasoned discourse showing that we should still wait. The wait rationale is no longer valid and namecalling doesn't alter that. μηδείς (talk) 00:11, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My comment wasn't directed at you but the broad media and editor stance that are immediately labeling this terrorism before the facts are known, based on a couple of commonalities to terrorism but not conclusive prove. As a neutral work, we are to be better than that. --MASEM (t) 00:22, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Your comment was indented below mine, which normally indicates it is to be taken as a response to mine. In any case, the killer was photographed, left a note saying he was killing in the name of ISIS. What more is needed? This is ready to go.μηδείς (talk) 01:14, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • Really? So a guy drives through a bunch of people, gets out and shouts Allah Akbar and you want to wait to find out his motive? Sir Joseph (talk) 23:48, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        • Absolutely. Orlando nightclub shooting started as suspected terrorism but it was determined not be on investigation. Similarly with 2014 Dijon attack, guy shouted same thing but determined no connection. Maybe the guy was drunk off his rocker. --MASEM (t) 00:20, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
          • The Orlanda shooting is of course a terrorist attack and is being treated as such. I don't know where you're getting your information from. Of course this was a terrorist attack. A person drives a truck purposely killing people and then of course shouts Allahu Akbar can't be anything other than a terrorist attack. Sir Joseph (talk) 00:23, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
            • The word "terrorism" has become significantly diluted since 9/11, which is the problem through this, and in discussion at WT:NOT. The problem is that we're grouping international terrorism, domestic crimes, hate crimes, and a whole bunch of other things under this moniker, and created a type of "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" mentality on how to react to such attacks, and all these start to become a blur. And as to your second point, the Dijon ramming was exactly that, including the driver shouting "allah akbar", but classified "not terrorism" by officials. --MASEM (t) 00:36, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
              • Just the opposite. The US does not call most "terror" incidents as terrorism. That an act on US soil is considered a terrorist attack is certainly notable, especially when the guy leaves a note. Sir Joseph (talk) 00:40, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
agree wholly and thanks for saying that.
so youre not a klan recruit ;)Lihaas (talk) 23:40, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose Terrorists attacks in the United States often get wide news coverage, but the problem here is that virtually EVERY terrorist attack in the nation, both big and small, gets this coverage. Not every terrorist attack deserves an ITN nomination. SamaranEmerald (talk) 23:42, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ad Orientem, was your wait in good faith? If so,the article is no longer a stub, it is fully referenced, all the principle facts are known, we even have a confession by the perpetrator. Or was your wait actually an oppose? If that's the case, please change it to oppose. TRM and ZigZig also voted oppose for now based on lack of information. All the other waits are, if we assume good faith, supports that have now been satisfied. We have only two actual opposes, one because not enough blood was shed, and the other a typical bigoted anti-American illegitimate vote. So that vast majority are in support of posting this, and it is indeed ready to post. μηδείς (talk) 02:44, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Moving to Support from Wait. The article appears to be in decent shape. Government officials and pretty much all of the reliable sources are calling this a terrorist attack. And it is the lead story in most of the world. That is pretty much the standard around here. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:50, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted given the determination that it is indeed a terrorist attack. Updated the blurb based on the article's infobox. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 03:00, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting support it's annoying that some of the support rationales are rather unfair in my opinion (e.g. "worst terrorist incident in NYC since 9/11", even though NYC is only a city, and we just had a more lethal terrorist incident rejected [3]). However it remains that this particular incident will be reported around the world, it will spawn follow-up articles (I just saw one entitled "Hero NYPD cop stops NYC terrorist from taking more lives"), and it'll continue to attract media attention for a while. I'm also for 'post now', since one of ITN's purposes is to emphasize Wikipedia as a dynamic resource. Unless the article ends up at AfD if it's not a terrorist incident, whatever the motivations of the attacker are shouldn't matter. Banedon (talk) 03:39, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

October 30

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October 30, 2017 (2017-10-30) (Monday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

[Posted] RD: Judy Martz

[edit]
Article: Judy Martz (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The San Francisco Chronicle, NBC
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former Montana Governor and first female to hold that position. Article updated and well sourced. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 01:57, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose not top of her field, and per international precedence thered too manyto post. As it is virtually everything goeson rd.Lihaas (talk) 07:28, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You appear to have missed the fact that "super notability" of RDs is no longer debated; that's been the case for many months now. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:48, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
How long have you been here now, Lihaas?--WaltCip (talk) 12:10, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Lihaas: - "virtually everything" does not got on RD. For a start someone actually has to care enough to nominate. Secondly, the article needs to be of a good enough quality before it can appear in RD. Mjroots (talk) 13:19, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Consider this your WP:TROUT slap, @Lihaas:. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:22, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
ok,was awAy when rd changed.Lihaas (talk) 22:18, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's BS. It's been different for years now. You've commented on nominations dozens of times in those years. --Jayron32 12:01, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
onmore notable ones (and pre rd deaths), since rd the criteria is lower apparently as mentioned above.Lihaas (talk) 16:21, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There was a whole bloody RFC about changing the RD criteria. It was advertised for months before and after the fact.--WaltCip (talk) 18:24, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It is also explained in every single RD nomination complete with links to the RFC and the clarifying discussion. Seriously, WP:CIR applies here just as much as it does anywhere else. ‑ Iridescent 20:04, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Closed] Carbon dioxide in Earth's atmosphere

[edit]
No consensus. Stephen 01:33, 31 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Carbon dioxide in Earth's atmosphere (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Concentrations of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the Earth's atmosphere surged to a record high in 2016, according to the World Meteorological Organization. (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Top news right now. Sherenk1 (talk) 12:29, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If someone can find a better related article, please do post Sherenk1 (talk) 13:18, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose and it's likely going to keep rising, per standard climate change models. It's a trending thing, this is just another marker point on the effects of climate change. We should be looking for more "tangible" aspects, such as when the large ice chunk fell off Antartica recently (which was ITN). --MASEM (t) 14:03, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose a good faith nomination, however this was predictable and will likely occur annually within the next coming years. As Masem points out, we should concentrate on more "tangible"aspects. Hornetzilla78 (talk) 15:45, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Oppose item is in the news, but target article has orange tags. Not sure what "tangibles" we should be waiting for: the collapse of the ocean ecosystem? 10 feet of sea level rise? polar bears in sun glasses on the beach at Hudson Bay? Come on. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 17:26, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - information that people need to know, and might be well suited to DYK, but the fact that there is a growing amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is hardly news at this stage, and so is not suited for ITN in my view. Stormy clouds (talk) 19:07, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The mean has risen by roughly 2ppm per year since the 19th century; it reaches a record high almost every year, other than in years following El Niño events. As the appropriately named Stormy Clouds says, although it's in the news it isn't really news as such; if the concentration starts dropping, that would be news. ‑ Iridescent 19:27, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Closed] Russia probe: Manafort, Gates arrest

[edit]
Despite of the good faith nomination, there is overwhelming consensus against posting this entry at this time based on the customary practice of ITN. Alex Shih (talk) 14:20, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2017 Special Counsel investigation (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In the ongoing investigation on Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. Presidential election, charges are filled against Paul Manafort and Rick Gates. (Post)
News source(s): (New York Times)
Credits:
Nominator's comments: This will be a Watergate moment in US history. Definitely ITN worthy. bender235 (talk) 12:11, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose until a conviction is evident. In today's political environment in the US, difficult to separate between a legitimate criminal investigation and what amounts to essentially a political perp walk.--WaltCip (talk) 12:21, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose. There might be arrests in this case that are notable, but I don't think this is it. It was widely expected, and prosecutors tend to go for the low hanging fruit first. 331dot (talk) 12:55, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose posting mere arrests. If/when someone is convicted, or if it brings down Trump's administration, then we can consider posting. It's premature at this stage. Modest Genius talk 13:01, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now, the story is a good one, but I would be more in favor of posting at a conclusion rather than at the start. Under normal protocols here, the arrest is usually not the time we post. There may be situations when it would be, but this isn't it. --Jayron32 13:20, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose good faith nom per above comments. There is a longstanding and fairly strong consensus at ITN that we don't post arrests. or criminal indictments. If a head of state were indicted I would probably consider an IAR exception but this doesn't come close to that level of notoriety. -Ad Orientem (talk) 13:48, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per above, and would propose a ITNC nomination moratorium on anything dealing with the probe until if convictions are made, or if an extremely high level official is charged (read: if the probe ends up charging Trump , if it came to that decision). --MASEM (t) 14:00, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I would make that proposal on the the talk page. In the meantime I think this discussion can probably be closed. Consensus seems fairly clear. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:08, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

October 29

[edit]
October 29, 2017 (2017-10-29) (Sunday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

Politics and elections

Sports

[Posted] RD: Ninian Stephen

[edit]
Article: Ninian Stephen (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): ABC, Sydney Morning Herald
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former Governor-General of Australia and High Court justice. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 13:20, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] Icelandic parliamentary election, 2017

[edit]
Article: Icelandic parliamentary election, 2017 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In the Icelandic parliamentary election, the Independence Party win the most seats (Post)
News source(s): Iceland review, BBC
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: Article suffers from the usual opinion polling bloat of recent election articles but the fundamentals are there. LukeSurl t c 18:28, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 28

[edit]
October 28, 2017 (2017-10-28) (Saturday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

Politics and elections

October 27

[edit]
October 27, 2017 (2017-10-27) (Friday)
Arts and culture
International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

[Posted] New script for Kazakh alphabet

[edit]
Article: Kazakh language (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ President Nursultan Nazarbayev of Kazakhstan announces that the Kazakh language will shift to using a Latin script, rather than the current Cyrillic script. (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian, Al Jazeera
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: This will affect approximately 10 million people in Kazakhstan (and perhaps more if Kazakhs in other countries also adopt the change). It is very rare for such a large language to drastically change its writing system. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 12:19, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] Catalan declaration of independence

[edit]
Proposed image
Articles: Declaration of Independence of Catalonia (talk · history · tag) and Catalan independence referendum, 2017 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Following an independence referendum, the Parliament of Catalonia votes to declare independence from Spain. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Amid ongoing Spanish constitutional crisis, the Parliament of Catalonia votes to declare independence from Spain.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Catalonia (flag pictured) declares independence from Spain, following an independence referendum.
Alternative blurb III: ​ Catalonia (flag pictured) makes a unilateral declaration of independence from Spain, whose government imposes direct rule under Article 155 of its constitution.
Alternative blurb IV: ​ The Parliament of Catalonia (flag pictured) makes a unilateral declaration of independence from Spain, whose government imposes direct rule under Article 155 of its constitution.
News source(s): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116
Credits:

Nominator's comments: The proposed blurb could do with tweeking. KTC (talk) 13:38, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There are at least three other articles we could link to instead.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:55, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Added altblurb. Brandmeistertalk 14:00, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think Catalan independence referendum, 2017 should be a bold article. In blunt terms, the vote is fairly old news in this story. --LukeSurl t c 14:03, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
After looking at the bolded article in the alt blurb (Catalan independence), I am still unable to support. There are serious referencing issues that would need to be fixed. For now I stand by my oppose. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support after improvements - Historic vote. Independence declared. No matter what happens in the next few days Catalonia is independent as of right now.BabbaQ (talk) 13:54, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This is basically a new country creating event. bd2412 T 13:56, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment bold link the referendum I guess but it's last update is "A debate over a possible declaration of independence went ahead as planned in the Parliament of Catalonia later that day and into the next morning,[113] simultaneous to the Spanish Senate debating the enforcement of Article 155" and doesn't state any declaration has been made. Worse still, once article 155 has been invoked, the constitutional crisis should be bolded, but it's orange tagged. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 14:01, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
To which "constitutional crisis" article are you referring? 2017 Spanish constitutional crisis is not orange tagged.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:04, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That is just Spain counter move as of right now. It doesnt mean anything until actual stuff has been made.BabbaQ (talk) 14:35, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Jenda H makes a valid point. I think we need to tread carefully here regards NPOV. Right now we are presenting only one side of a contentious issue in the proposed blurbs. Of course this is a moot issue until the article quality problems are resolved. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:42, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
 • Obvious candidate, but I think it needs an article called 2017 Catalonia declaration of independence. The referendum was four weeks ago. Sca (talk) 14:49, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose All of the currently existing, proposed articles have major issues all noted above. If someone fixes one of those up, or writes a new article to use for this, please let us know so we can assess the situation again. Right now there is nothing we can be proud to direct readers to. --Jayron32 14:53, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • That is not true, neither the Catalonia or Spain articles have any orange tags. Mjroots (talk) 15:11, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • Neither article has a sufficient updated for the event. The Catalonia article, for example, has a 1-sentence update. From the ITN criteria, and I quote, "The decision as to when an article is updated enough is subjective, but a five-sentence update (with at minimum three references, not counting duplicates) is generally more than sufficient, while a one-sentence update is highly questionable." Expand it first, THEN tell me you fixed the problem. --Jayron32 15:17, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well since Ed Johnston fully protected Catalonia for a week, (which would be the logical target if no 2017 Catalonia declaration of independence article is created) that's not going to be updated before people start complaining about it being stale. Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:34, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
          • Then fix one of the other articles. There are 18 ways of getting this story posted, none of them involves bitching about it not yet being posted. All of them involved improving an article we can post on the main page. You've got many options, but telling me about how one option isn't working right now is not getting this posted. The very minute YOU make an article worthwhile to go on the main page by YOUR efforts to improve it, it will be posted. Unless and until YOU do that, it won't be. You could also merely wait for someone else to do that work, but then you can't THEN complain it hasn't been posted yet. --Jayron32 15:37, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
          • Also, let's just say, for sake of arguement, you have already written a fantastic, several paragraph-long, superbly referenced update to the Catalonia article, but it's protected so you cannot add it to the article. There are mechanisms to fix that too. Just add your update to the article talk page and ask an admin to add it. It'll be as good as done. Since I assume you already did that (because if you hadn't you wouldn't have complained, right?) then it should be easy to go to Talk:Catalonia and request that your articulate, well-referenced text be put into the article. --Jayron32 15:40, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
            • Jayron, (and all other interested parties), what is your view of the Catalan Republic (2017) article? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:47, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
              • Judging by the flag of Russia it displays, my view is it needs (semi) protected. All Catalonia stuff does today. GCG (talk) 16:29, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
              • It's barely above stub-class. There's precious little content there. Were the history section was fleshed out with referenced text describing the background of the independence movement, through the Declaration of Independence, it would be better. If we had that, so that interested readers could learn enough historical background to provide them with context to gain a useful understanding of the situation, we'd have some postable content. --Jayron32 16:35, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I support in principle on notability. I have no views yet on on article quality. But I favour the first altblurb, precisely because it doesn't mention the referendum. The article on the declaration of independence will mention the referendum, which is enough. To include the referendum in the blurb without qualification (such as illegal/unconstitutional referendum largely boycotted by Catalan Unionists) seems POV, conferring on the declaration of independence a spurious appearance of moral legitimacy such as it would have had if it had been a proper referendum such as the Scottish and Quebec referendums. But if we try to put in qualifications we may have space problems, and accusations of being POV the other way, and further difficulty in obtaining consensus. So the best solution seems to be to just neutrally report the undoubted fact that the Parliament has voted to declare independence. Also in terms of actual news the Spanish Senate's vote today to impose rule by Madrid, and/or EU/Nato/US declarations today that they will only deal with Madrid, seem far more deserving than the referendum to be included in the blurb (though simplest is to include none in the blurb, and leave all to be mentioned in the article).Tlhslobus (talk) 16:19, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - one of the most notable events to happen in Western Europe for a very long time. Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:22, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
 • Marty – Catalan Republic (2017) – Obviously it's short but could be expanded as story develops. If there's a consensus to get this out there pronto I could support. Sca (talk) 16:31, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My question was really only one of principle. I see it's suddenly got a lot bigger. But Jayron has already crossed it off his list below. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:09, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Possible target articles
[edit]

For the sake of simplicity, because this is getting really messy, I'm creating this subsection as a workspace to allow us to come up with a working blurb to post. Clearly, this is BIG NEWS. But we're stuck in a situation where we don't seem to be able to come to an agreement on which article to post. Please feel free to add to this list as needed, and make any fixes to these articles we need to make.

From my POV, the best target is the Spanish Constitutional Crisis article, since it's only problem is that it isn't directly about this event. I'd prefer one of the others, but they all need some work. Lets use this as a workspace to see what we improve, and then decide on a blurb. It's become too messy up above. --Jayron32 16:49, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not opposed to using Catalan Republic (2017) as the featured article. It is at least start quality and rapidly improving, so meets our guidelines, and includes a link to 2017 Spanish constitutional crisis prominently in the history section. Mamyles (talk) 17:13, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I actually think the constitutional crisis article is the correct one. It has the most background, a good history of the whole sad saga, and is in decent shape. It doesn't at present actually say that article 155 has been invoked, and is has this awful sentence: "In the end Puigdemont chose not to dissolve Parliament, allegedly because of the Spanish government's refusal to call off the Article 155 procedure even were an election was called by Puigdemont.". The others are forks, likely to become POV battle grounds and get merged following an AFD in a few weeks. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 18:12, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Question: Is the article title (as distinct from its contents) POV? After all Spain will scream that there's no such thing as the Catalan Republic (2017), so by using that title we may give the impression that we are siding with the secessionists. Do we have any precedents or guidelines, and can somebody come up with a more neutral title (that may not be easy)? Tlhslobus (talk) 18:15, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Tlhslobus: I appreciate why you might think the the article title is POV, but it is in keeping with the other Catalan Republic articles. On balance, I think it is not falling foul of WP:NPOV with that title. Mjroots (talk) 18:48, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your informative reply, Mjroots. Having briefly looked at the other articles I now think you're probably right.Tlhslobus (talk) 22:31, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Tlhslobus: The title isn't a breach of NPOV; we're not endorsing a particular group, just using the name they give themselves. There are numerous other articles on Wikipedia on unrecognized states, all of which use the name they give themselves (Republic of Artsakh, Luhansk People's Republic, Republic of Logone, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant etc) except in a few cases where there's a genuine WP:COMMONNAME in English for the unrecognized entity (Taiwan, Somaliland, Transnistria…). ‑ Iridescent 10:03, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your informative reply, Iridescent. As I already told Mjroots I now accept that it probably isn't POV.Tlhslobus (talk) 12:11, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Civciv5: "This is not already on the front page" because it is not yet ready for posting, nor is there agreement on what exactly should be posted. ITN is not a news ticker, but a way to highlight decent articles that have gained consensus for posting. 331dot (talk) 09:49, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Alt blurb III / IV
[edit]

ALT III should be posted. It is factually correct and neutral. Neither article has any major issues, and both are updated. Mjroots (talk) 10:53, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fair point, Mjroots. But to be accurate, shouldn't that altblurb say The Parliament of Catalonia (perhaps with Parliament wikilinked to Parliament of Catalonia and Catalonia still wikilinked to Catalan Republic (2017)? Otherwise there's the problem of whether that Parliament properly speaks for Catalonia when it's apparently exceeding the powers granted to it by the Spanish Constitution and laws, and whether it's then POV of us to equate the two. I've now added an altblurb IV to show this, though obviously there's a blurb length issue, and perhaps other issues as well.Tlhslobus (talk) 12:29, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've now also wikilinked the Spanish response to 2017 Spanish Constitutional Crisis in altblurb IV.Tlhslobus (talk) 12:45, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Alt IV would also have my Support. Mjroots (talk) 12:59, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted. It is clear this needs to be posted, but the Parliament of Catalonia and UDI articles are not fit to be linked to the main page, so I've posted with a combination of Alt2/3/4. If any admin thinks I've made a horrible error, feel free to fix it without pinging me. Ditto the flag, I haven't included it, but feel free to if you think it's important.Black Kite (talk) 13:06, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting: Bravo! Catalonia seems quite adequate. Sca (talk) 14:02, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Black Kite: what is the problem with the Catalan Republic article that prevents it being the bolded link? Mjroots (talk) 14:24, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good point. I used the link from Alt2, not Alt3. I'll change it. Black Kite (talk) 17:18, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Black Kite.Tlhslobus (talk) 14:28, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting
[edit]

[Posted] Australian parliamentary eligibility crisis

[edit]
Article: 2017 Australian parliamentary eligibility crisis (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The Government of Australia loses its legislative majority after the High Court of Australia deems five parliamentarians are ineligible to serve. (Post)
News source(s): ABC News, New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Guardian
Credits:

 – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · contribs · count) 04:08, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support'. This sort of thing seems rare to me. I think the removal itself is more noteworthy than the election, though I don't see what bad precedent posting the election would make(the precedent of posting by-elections or special elections where a politician was removed by a court?) and we don't often deal in 'precedent' anyway, considering each event on its own merits. 331dot (talk) 09:09, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - this is a very rare democratic occurrence in a major nation that will force a by-election to decide the future of the Australian government. Clearly worth of ITN, and the article is fine. If it needs to go up again in December, then let it be so. Stormy clouds (talk) 09:12, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, significant and unique occurrence in Australian politics, detailed and up-to-date article associated with it. The decision today to disqualify the Deputy PM and 4 Senators is the key aspect. Liguer (talk) 09:26, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Although Australia is known for frequent changes in their Prime Ministers following internal coups this crisis is a rare and unusual occurrence for a democracy. AusLondonder (talk) 09:40, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support decent article about political crisis. Notable and currently in the news.--Jenda H. (talk) 10:16, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted. --Jayron32 11:13, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fix this please. This is factually inaccurate. The government has not lost its legislative majority - it holds 75 of 149 seats which is still a one-seat majority. See for example here. Some journalists have been getting a bit over-excited but it's embarrassing having this on our front page. See this for Kevin Bonham's detailed reasoning, including an apt comparison to the Cook government of 1913-14. Frickeg (talk) 13:05, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    @Frickeg: WP:ERRORS is the better place to get this corrected. I think this was perhaps posted too hastily - it does take some wind out of the story if the government has not in fact lost its majority, but I see some people above are arguing the removal was the more noteworthy event anyway so I'm not calling for this to be pulled.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:14, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    And I quote from your article "Joyce’s exit strips Malcolm Turnbull’s government of its one-seat majority in the House of Representatives for now, but he could return through a byelection on 2 December." (bold mine) The article itself notes that Turnbull's claim of maintaining a majority is based on the technicality that the non-political Speaker of the Australian House of Representatives, who only votes in case of a tie. The Guardian itself discounts Turnbull's claim. If you're going to make an argument, find one that does not directly contradict it. --Jayron32 13:16, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    The article also says that Turnbull can rely on MPs to provide confidence and supply so it's not actually going to make much difference. The government is not going to fall.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:37, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree, saying without qualification that the Government has lost its majority is probably misleading. Barnaby's seat is vacant, it hasn't shifted into opposition/crossbench hands, so there are 149 seats in play instead of 150. The government still control 75 seats which is more than half; they effectively still have a majority. The main story should be the disqualifications. I would prefer a blurb something like: "The High Court of Australia finds the deputy prime minister and four senators are disqualified from Parliament due to their dual citizenship". Liguer (talk) 14:13, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Take it down. It is not correct and not newsworthy enough for the main page. 216.8.141.183 (talk) 14:39, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've taken this to WP:ERRORS.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:54, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
 Fixed. I've removed the contested part. The article quality has still not been challenged, just the blurb, so I have altered the blurb to remove any debatable text. --Jayron32 14:56, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pull: This was posted earlier today after just 7 hours with a dramatic but misleading claim that the Government had lost its majority (in effect we posted FAKE NEWS). This has now been corrected. But the misleading claim was highly relevant to the notability issue, and the fact that it went largely unnoticed or at least unmentioned until too late says quite a lot about the way we sometimes reach overhasty unwise consensuses here. As far as I know there is nothing all that unusual about elections in various countries having to be re-run because of irregularities, and often with much more at stake than in this case (for instance the last Austrian Presidential election and the recent Kenyan elections). Here all we have is a somewhat unusual reason for a bi-election, which hardly seems ITN worthy. Also pulling the item seems like a useful way to discourage this kind of undesirable behaviour in future, while failure to pull rewards undesirable behaviour, and will thus tend to encourage such behaviour in future, with damaging consequences for Wikipedia's credibility. Tlhslobus (talk) 16:54, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Had I been awake during this discussion I'd have voted oppose, as parliamentary-level issues are not routinely posted and this is really a procedural matter. I cannot imagine, for example, that we'd post it if the current trial of a NJ senator ends up resulting in his removal from office. So I support Pull -ing the item. But we don't pull items to punish undesirable behavior, we post and pull based on the merits of the item itself. μηδείς (talk) 21:18, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, μηδείς. I don't know whether or not "we don't punish" is a written rule somewhere, though even if it is, I tend to think that, per WP:IAR, we should ignore any rule that prevents us improving the Encyclopedia, and any rule that rewards bad behaviour seems to do that. But in any case we both seem to agree that the item should also be pulled on its merits, on grounds of insufficient notability now that the original dramatic claims about a lost majority have been removed. Meanwhile it might help if you re-formatted your reply so that your support for Pull doesn't become almost invisible in the middle of your post, where it is liable to go unnoticed by admins who normally expect to see such support at the start of a post.Tlhslobus (talk) 23:08, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: In many ways it's not really the loss of the Deputy Prime Minister's seat that is the most significant thing about this event. The ramifications of the High Court decision will have far greater implications. It's possible, even likely, that now that the High Court has ruled on how the eligibility clause must be interpreted, that more sitting MPs will be given extreme levels of scrutiny and suddenly find themselves also to be dual citizens and therefore ineligible to sit in Parliament. This is crystal balling, I know, but there will almost certainly be a snowball effect over the coming weeks and months that could see several more MPs ejected from Parliament. Whether this will trigger the fall of the Government and/or a fresh election is unknown, but a possibility. The longer term ramification is that the Australian Constitution may be untenable in its current form - the Government has already signalled its intention to review and possibly amend the Constitution because of this High Court ruling. The High Court decision is the critical point in an ongoing constitutional crisis which will not be fully resolved for some time now. I'm commenting for full information - I don't have a strong opinion of keep/pulling the item, though I lean in favour of it being significant enough for ITN. It's certainly the most significant event in Australian politics for 2017 (so far). -dmmaus (talk) 20:56, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
But as you yourself say, the possible ramifications are basically irrelevant, being WP:CRYSTAL. And "the most significant event in the politics of a particular country so far this year" is a rather subjective judgment (who decides that it's more significant than, say, the decision to hold an advisory referendum on gay marriage, or any number of developments in things like jobs or homelessness or health or education that probably ultimately affect ordinary people a lot more than the fate of a few politicians?). And if it were used as a criterion for inclusion in ITN we could expect perhaps 2 to 5 such claims per country per year (per WP:BIAS we are expected to pretend that all countries are equal, though it would be even worse for Australia if we used "all persons are equal" instead, leading to a huge increase in articles about China and India), leading to another 400 to 1000 more candidate articles, most of which would seem pretty trivial and unimportant to most of our readers (as I suspect this one probably probably already does).Tlhslobus (talk) 23:08, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If this had happened in India, a multi-party democracy, I would have supported inclusion here. AusLondonder (talk) 08:31, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pull, FWIW. I do not believe this rises to the level of ITN. Parliamentarians being disqualified may be relatively uncommon in the US, but in the more typical multi-party democracies, it is exceedingly common. The only reason this is in the news at all is because it occurred within the anglosphere, in a country which receives news coverage fairly disproportional to its population, and because this threatens the government. If the government actually falls, I would support this. Vanamonde (talk) 06:07, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Vanamonde93 Can you name any other instances similar to justify your claim this is an "exceedingly common" event? AusLondonder (talk) 08:30, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Rod Culleton and Bob Day are two recent examples. Chrisclear (talk) 13:06, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Chrisclear. And what this means is that contrary to the claims of this being almost unprecedented in the free world (which is the only remaining 'justification' for posting now that the claim that the government has lost its majority has been removed as misleading), we have 2 similar cases earlier this year in Australia itself. All the more reason for pulling the item, though at this stage I'm not expecting that to happen. Tlhslobus (talk) 14:41, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Closed] Release of JFK assassination documents

[edit]
7 opposes, 3 supports, and nobody has !voted in over 24 hours. Close as no consensus. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 17:14, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Assassination of John F. Kennedy (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The United States government releases 2,800 documents related to the assassination of John F. Kennedy. (Post)
News source(s): https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/26/us/politics/trump-jfk-release.html
Credits:
 Kaldari (talk) 02:56, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

October 26

[edit]
October 26, 2017 (2017-10-26) (Thursday)
Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

Politics and elections

[Posted] Sakharov Prize

[edit]
Article: Sakharov Prize (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Venezuela's democratic opposition win the Sakharov Prize. (Post)
News source(s): The Independent
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 The Rambling Man (talk) 21:15, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Support It's not ideal but I think we can go with the current target at this point. See below discussion. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:26, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support because ... really? Come on. Let's show off the FL. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 21:50, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Which would not pass the feature list process anymore, given the recent addition and WP:LEAD. I appreciate RamblingMan's eagerness to get this posted, but really, why not just create a new article, Sakharov Prize 2017, or update existing articles on the crisis in Venezuela (e.g. 2017 Venezuelan constitutional crisis). Just dumping text into the lead, without any consideration of appropriate weight, is not the way to go. Again, I guess no one doubts that this is newsworthy. There are more than enough articles that could be updated in a matter of minutes, so we could have both on the main page. A featured list AND an article with an appropriate udpate, giving some context and explaining why the prize was awarded. 81.204.120.137 (talk) 22:15, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, I'm done responding to this IP. I've done enough here to get this into ITN, "just dumping text"? Forget it. I couldn't care less either way if you personally disagree, as I'm not seeing you do anything whatsoever to improve Wikipedia other than complain here. So farewell "IP", until the next time you re-appear avoiding scrutiny. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:20, 28 October 2017 (UTC)→[reply]
    Sorry if I stressed you out. Didn't mean too. But your belittling comment (since then removed), did not exactly generate a lot of good will. Anyway, I pointed out a few possible target articles and that was meant to be of help. 81.204.120.137 (talk) 22:28, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    No, not stressed at all. Your comment was hilarious and I stand by the fact I think it was the funniest thing (especially from an IP avoiding scrutiny) I've read for a while. No target articles that you claim to have pointed out are viable at this time, but thanks for your efforts! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:33, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    @Ed, linking the article itself is risky because it means the same article can be featured next year. Not so long ago was Nobel week, and there were several Nobel Prizes not featured because the winners' articles weren't good enough ([4], [5], [6]). What posting this means is that, in the future, if the winners' articles aren't good enough we can still directly link Nobel Prize in Chemistry, and we can do that every year. If you've not seen it, there was a RfC for TFA earlier this year about whether it was even OK to rerun a formerly-featured article [7]. Consensus came down to requiring 5 years of intervening time, which is way longer than reposting Sakharov Prize every year. I remain opposed to this. Banedon (talk) 23:18, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Of course, everyone's conveniently overlooking the fact that this article has twice been linked as the target for ITN, including last year, for precisely the same reason, exercising the caveat noted at ITNR for precisely the right reason. Ho hum. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:10, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment so now I've tried to address the immediate concerns by adding a para to the lead about the most recent winner, the IP is setting about removing it all. I'm done with this, and the pathetic behaviour of the scrutiny-avoiding IP, I was just doing my best to ensure Wikipedia and its readers got the information it deserved, but hey, with the TRM-haters and this IP, no chance. Next time I'll ask someone else to nominate the article. Cheers all! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:46, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see no point in complaining about an IP "evading scrutiny" when registered users are totally anonymous, yet IP users show their location. In any case "hahahaha" and a huff, oddly enough, are not a refutation of 81's reasoned and not unilateral oppose. μηδείς (talk) 23:20, 28 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I can fully appreciate the difficulty of what an appropriate target article is here and how to reflect that as a target as the awardee of the prize without creating a nightmare of a blurb or the like. The situation as is: the section in the prize's page (though which could be in the Notes for the award) is sufficient update for this very unique instance. --MASEM (t) 14:34, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for that, but as noted above, it's not "very unique (sic)", we have linked the list twice, 2011 and last year, for the very same reason. Everyone here voting oppose has conflicted with me in the past, but as found in the latest Arb drama, I always have content in my best interest, especially the main page, why we wouldn't apply the same logic as we did last year or in 2011 is beyond me. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:13, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I respect your concern for content and thank you for your considerable contributions. But the basic argument here is that all ITNR really requires is the "quality of the article and the update to it." If we target the winner, we can consider the quality of that winner's article. If we target the list, we don't have a quality update worthy of ITN. GCG (talk) 17:37, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Thats why we have the caveat at ITNR. Unless we have an updated suitable target article, the list is just fine, as proven in 2011 and 2016. Thanks. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:48, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted The 'democratic opposition' does not exist as a single entity, as it covers all opposition parties and political prisoners. As such there will never be a corresponding article as the grouping only exists in the context of the prize. Stephen 22:54, 29 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    As has been pointed out above, 2017 Sakharov prize would have been the right target article. That no one was willing to create this article is not a valid reason to ignore the rules. What we have instead is a degraded feature list article, which still provides almost no context or explanation. 81.204.120.137 (talk) 08:58, 1 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting comment: um, there already is a catch-all article on Venezuela's democratic opposition - the Democratic Unity Roundtable. Why couldn't the update be incorporated there? Modest Genius talk 13:44, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Feel free to do that update. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:48, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Does that article cover all the parties awarded the prize? Stephen 21:56, 30 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 25

[edit]
October 25, 2017 (2017-10-25) (Wednesday)
Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents

Politics and elections

Law and crime

Science and technology

[Posted] RD: Pinito del Oro

[edit]
Article: Pinito del Oro (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): La Vanguardia
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Article updated, fixed, and well sourced --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 04:38, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Closed] First possible interstellar comet

[edit]
It seems we have a consensus to wait until more is known (published paper or similar). And it has become clear during the nomination that it is an asteroid. Definitely a good ITN story, but not just yet. --Tone 07:39, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: C/2017 U1 (PANSTARRS) (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The first possible comet originating from another star, C/2017 U1 (PANSTARRS), is discovered. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ The first known possible interstellar comet, C/2017 U1 (PANSTARRS), is discovered.
News source(s): skyandtelescope
Credits:
 exoplanetaryscience (talk) 17:17, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose until it's confirmed. It seems like the main evidence in favour of it is its orbit, but that alone shouldn't suffice. After all, it's possible it's a solar system object that was flung into a hyperbolic orbit by an interaction with a planet. Banedon (talk) 21:30, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • That has been ruled out quite conclusively: Its orbit is inclined 122 degrees to the ecliptic, and only intersects it at Earth's and Mercury's orbits during the last month or so. The rest of the time it's been in the middle of nowhere, further from any planet than Earth is from Jupiter. exoplanetaryscience (talk) 22:08, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • PS: Pretty much the only doubt of its interstellar nature remains in its orbit. There's a miniscule (but still present) chance that it might not be interstellar, and at this point it's just astronomers trying not to make such a bold claim so soon.
      • Do you have a source that explicitly discusses the possibility that it's a solar system object? A technical source is fine. Banedon (talk) 23:18, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        • Unfortunately there aren't many sources on the object yet. Here's another nail in the coffin though (and I'm not sure how to update this to reflect that): The object has been confirmed to be asteroidal in nature. That means it can't have originated from the oort cloud or similarly distant areas, and must have either been in the inner regions of a solar system for long enough to completely exhaust its ice reserves, or formed within the ice line (which an object on such a large orbit just doesn't do).
        • I ran a simulation using the current barycentric elements, and its elements in 1600 AD, when it was 2250 AU from the Sun, had an eccentricity of 1.179 +/- 0.015 (fitting with the error on the observations). Barycentric elements are calculated from JPL horizons and the uncertainty was calculated from the 46 available observations using find_orb. exoplanetaryscience (talk) 23:45, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
          • Do you have a source which says it is asteroidal in nature? I'm not familiar with the reason for why such an object cannot be from the Oort cloud either - comets come from the Oort cloud so I'd expect an interstellar comet to also be like an Oort cloud object. If being asteroidal in nature rules out this object as coming from the Oort cloud, wouldn't it also rule out this object as a comet? I also think we're in OR territory as well. Banedon (talk) 01:08, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
            • Source: http://www.minorplanetcenter.net/mpec/K17/K17UI3.html
            • It's a little bit complicated to explain, but this object is indeed not a comet. It's apparently an interstellar asteroid. An inactive galaxy couldn't have come directly from the outer solar system (or any outer stellar system) because it would have had large amounts of ice, as almost always forms for objects as far out as the Oort Cloud- see: There is no object with an aphelion over 300 AU and a perihelion less than 2 AU that hasn't been observed to outgas. The only solution is this thing formed/orbited in an inner stellar system. Considering neither Earth nor Mercury have enough gravity to pull this thing (and hold it) onto such a large orbit, there is effectively no explanation other than an approach from another system. PS Here is an orbital calculation using all available observations- https://projectpluto.com/temp/2017u1.htm . At this point, even a hyperbolic orbit would require systematic observing errors from multiple observatories that are so unlikely that I don't think calculating the probability is really possible. exoplanetaryscience (talk) 01:32, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
              • Hmm. I would still wait till the astrometry is confirmed. It's not seeing much coverage in the usual news sources (Reuters BBC etc) as well, and some still refer to it as a comet. Banedon (talk) 21:26, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • wait until we know more (though at that point, it might not really be "news" anymore. Science is slow, sadly). ~Mable (chat) 08:28, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm unsure about this. It's a cool discovery, but seems to still be developing (e.g. it was officially renamed as an asteroid just today last night). We also usually require publication in a peer-reviewed journal before posting science stories; thus far this just has a bunch of minor planet circulars. It may be better to wait until full details are published in a journal paper. Modest Genius talk 09:54, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Article itself is short, confusing, and self-contradictory. The lead doesn't mention the interstellar nature (which if it is to be the most important thing about it; then should be more prominent, n'est ce pas?). Secondly, the article first mentions that it's an interstellar comet without mentioning when it was so designated, THEN it mentions in the next section that it isn't even a comet, and that on October 25 (no year? October 25 when?) it was redesignated as an asteroid and not a comet. The article content is a travesty, and has no business being shown to the public as a worthwhile article to read. It needs a LOT of work by someone very knowledgable in this rather technical issue before it is main page ready. --Jayron32 12:07, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree that the article needs a lot of work and generally concur with your view. However, it does state the interstellar nature twice in the first two sentences, as long as the reader understands the terms. A comet on a hyperbolic orbit is an interstellar comet - those terms are effectively synonyms. And an orbit with eccentricity >1 is hyperbolic, by definition. Of course that use of jargon should be improved. Modest Genius talk 13:48, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's called A/2017 U1 and doesn't say precovery, what year do you think it would be? I appended 2017 to the vague date. It's obvious to astronomers from the article alone that it was named a comet without any coma actually being seen because the orbital parameters are not asteroid-like. Of course it'd be nice if the article actually explains things like this. When a very good telescope couldn't see a coma it was redesignated A/2017 U1 (not 2017 UCapitalletter(number) cause this is how it works when misidentification happens the other direction (i.e. C/2018 AB102)). Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:08, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      "obvious to astronomers"... So Wikipedia exists solely to serve astronomers who already know this stuff, and don't need it? --Jayron32 14:11, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, the article should explain these things. And you can hardly expect an astronomer to know even a few facts for each of almost 1 million known asteroids. The earliest known image of it is from October 18 per one of the article's sources so someone that hasn't followed big asteroid news in the past few days would be able to not don't need it (and no, that doesn't mean this is stale, even at an eccentricity of almost 1.2 it takes an observation arc of some time to have high probability that eccentricity is in fact more than 1) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:38, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

October 24

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October 24, 2017 (2017-10-24) (Tuesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks
Business and economy

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

[Posted] RD: Fats Domino

[edit]
Proposed image
Article: Fats Domino (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Independent
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Rock and roll legend Drchriswilliams (talk) 15:07, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know of a project as such, but Jerry Lee Lewis and especially Johnny Mathis both need a ton of work if you're looking for something to edit.yorkshiresky (talk) 17:19, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

 • For those who remember the thrill of his music, he might be blurbable. Sca (talk) 16:59, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • What do you support? Posting it now in its inadequate state? Posting it in general, which needs no support? Saying more than just "support" would probably be advisable so people understand what your motivation or even your point is. 91.49.85.74 (talk) 20:22, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
 • Fats Domino (89), US-amerikanischer Musiker († 25. Oktober); Nécrologie: Fats Domino.; 24. oktober - Fats Domino (billedet), amerikansk R&B- og rock and roll-sanger og musiker (født 1928); Nyligen avlidna: Fats Domino; Halálesetek a közelmúltban: Fats Domino – Sca (talk) 00:22, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, those Wikipedia’s are renown for posting completely inadequately referenced articles to their main page, it’s a good job we don’t follow suit. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:03, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Per TRM, the fact that someone else does something really terrible does not create a death-pact for us forcing us to do the same terrible thing. --Jayron32 11:32, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I've frequently been terrified by frightfully deficient documentation on these Wikis. It scares me to death. I have nightmares about it. Sca (talk) 14:38, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Jayron, fully agree with you. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:42, 27 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] RD: Glenn Barr

[edit]
Article: Glenn Barr (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Belfast Telegraph
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Article well updated and well sourced --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 05:51, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] RD: Robert Guillaume

[edit]
Article: Robert Guillaume (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Variety
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: African-American stage/television/film actor. Article is reasonably sourced, though the filmography needs sources, and I'm surprised at a lack of a TV -ography section or a stage role list (prose has these but these are usually outlined further. MASEM (t) 21:14, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] 19th National Congress of the Communist Party of China

[edit]
Article: 19th National Congress of the Communist Party of China (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The National Congress of the Communist Party of China is held in Beijing. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Xi Jinping assumed his second term as General Secretary at the National Congress of the Communist Party of China held in Beijing.
Alternative blurb II: ​ 5 of the 7 members of China's top leadership are expected to retire at the National Congress held in Beijing.
Alternative blurb III: ​ At the National Congress of the Communist Party of China, Xi Jinping assumed his second term as General Secretary, and the political theory Xi Jinping Thought was written into the party's constitution.
News source(s): BBC, Guardian, Telegraph
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: Big event in the politics of the world's most populous country. Western media is generally reporting the angle regarding Xi's consolidation of power, however the easiest thing for ITN to do is have a simple blurb and let the article do the talking. LukeSurl t c 08:36, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • I need some more clarification on why this is a big deal. (some more sources would be nice too) We wouldn't post a meeting of the Republican National Committee(the party that currently controls the executive and legislative parts of the US government). 331dot (talk) 09:35, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    True. I've added two ALT blurbs for consideration. This article needs some more work though. Alex Shih (talk) 09:49, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    I've added a couple more sources. In short, as the Communist Party and the government of China are essentially one and the same, the internal machinations and appointments here represent as much power transfers/consolidations as national general elections do in other countries. --LukeSurl t c 09:59, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • If five of the seven current PSC members indeed retire, that would definitely be worth posting. Maybe we should wait for more information on that. Xi Jinping's second term as the General Secretary is probably worth posting because wouldn't that be considered the "head of state" per ITN/R? There definitely seems to be something worth posting here. ~Mable (chat) 11:34, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    The General Secretary is not the head of state per se; but Xi is also the president of China, and therefore the head of state wearing that hat. He is the most powerful man in the world. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 11:49, 24 October 2017 (UTC) Posting from Beijing, China[reply]
Is that a fact? Sca (talk) 13:26, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
According to Forbes he was #4 in 2016, but maybe he might be rising a few spots after this. --LukeSurl t c 13:31, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The Economist has him at no.1.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 17:08, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support last time we posted both his appointment as general secretary of the CPC and the laughable sham election in their congress where he was made president. Given that the PRC is a fascist totalitarian dictatorship where Xi's authoritarian rule will not be challenged democratically, and that the story is presently in the news and that the article is decent, this would be a good time to post it. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 15:52, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Is ITN really the place for using Fascist as an insult? AusLondonder (talk) 00:17, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Notability-wise, it is a no-brainer. Stormy clouds (talk) 18:14, 25 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • In my opinion, Xi's "re-election" is not news; it is the Xi Thought and the new Standing Committee. Colipon+(Talk)
  • I believe that the Xi Thought in the constitution is the key thing. It elevates him to the level that only two have reached: Mao Zedong and Deng Xiaoping. added and naturally support ALT3. From what I read, the significance of the new committee is that they are old guys who will not succeed Xi, so it's all about Xi, at least to me. starship.paint ~ KO 01:07, 26 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 23

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October 23, 2017 (2017-10-23) (Monday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

October 22

[edit]
October 22, 2017 (2017-10-22) (Sunday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Sports

[Posted] RD: George Young (rock musician)

[edit]
Article: George Young (rock musician) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 The Rambling Man (talk) 14:51, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] Japanese general election, 2017

[edit]
Proposed image
Article: Japanese general election, 2017 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In Japan, the ruling coalition, led by incumbent Prime Minister Shinzō Abe (pictured), retains its House supermajority in the general election. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ In Japan, the ruling coalition, led by incumbent Prime Minister Shinzō Abe (pictured), retains its House supermajority in the general election, while a new party, the Constitutional Democratic Party, becomes the largest opposition party.
News source(s): Washington Post, Japan Times, Reuters
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 Davey2116 (talk) 19:16, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As I'm reading the table for both this election and the last one shouldn't it be that the coalition retained their supermajority? --Jnorton7558 (talk) 19:33, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, sorry about that. I fixed it now. Davey2116 (talk) 19:41, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Capitalistroadster: They're collapsable tables; you need to click on "show" to see them.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:30, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My bad. Change that to an unconditional support. Capitalistroadster (talk) 23:22, 24 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 21

[edit]
October 21, 2017 (2017-10-21) (Saturday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

Health and medicine

Politics and elections

[Posted] Czech legislative election, 2017

[edit]
Article: Czech legislative election, 2017 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The ANO party led by Andrej Babiš wins the most seats in the Czech legislative election. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ The ANO party wins the most seats in the Czech legislative election, and leader Andrej Babiš is to be named prime minister.
News source(s): (BBC), (RT), (RFE/RL), (Al Jazeera), (NY Times), Reuters, AFP.
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 Jenda H. (talk) 21:34, 21 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 20

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October 20, 2017 (2017-10-20) (Friday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Law and crime

Politics and elections

[Posted] RD: Stan Kowalski

[edit]
Article: Stan Kowalski (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): SLAM Wrestling
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Professional wrestler, WWII veteran, activist for veterans. Nikki♥311 00:56, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Insect population decline

[edit]
Article: Biodiversity loss (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ A study in Germany documenting a 75% decline in populations of flying insects causes alarm over biodiversity loss (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ A study in Germany documenting a 75% decline in populations of flying insects causes alarm over biodiversity loss.
News source(s): BBC, The Independent, CNN, Business insider, Science
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: It strikes me that we do not post enough stories of scientific interest, of of ecological interest in particular, as they tend to build slowly. This one has received widespread attention as an example of a decline in pollinator populations. Vanamonde (talk) 14:47, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • @WaltCip: This is in the news at the moment, as the result of a study published four days ago. You may argue that it is not significant because the decline has been occurring for a while, but saying that it is stale is off the mark. @Brandmeister: Even if this phenomenon has been reported before, may I ask why that makes it not newsworthy? Vanamonde (talk) 17:03, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's newsworthy per se, but in ITN terms it's an incremental arbitrary update. Next year they may report 79%, then 85%, etc, unless it stops. Brandmeistertalk 17:22, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe we should wait for the 100% drop? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sort of. I recall a suggestion in some nomination to wait for a complete extinction of some species (similar to John McCain's diagnosis nomination). Wicked, but nearly always postable. Brandmeistertalk 17:51, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
My favorite one is when it's argued North Korea's nuclear program should only be posted on ITN if it actually nukes a country. Well, of course a nuclear strike is going to be notable! There hasn't been one since the end of World War 2!--WaltCip (talk) 18:56, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but at least it might get rid of those pesky gnats Martinevans123 (talk) 19:13, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose; things cause alarm to various groups or people in general every day. There's no tangible action here to hang our hat on. As noted above, this is nothing new. 331dot (talk) 17:07, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose See maximum sustainable yield. If insect populations in a certain area are in decline it may be due to habitat loss (you don't find cicadas where there are no trees) but overall population numbers bounce back extremely rapidly in r-selection species, since they have extremely high replacement rates. That is, consider a species which lays thousands of eggs. If its population is stable, that means 999 out of 1000 offspring is dying before replacing a parent. If there is a harsh winter, numbers may drop dramatically, but the next year the infraspecies competition over resources will be less and the population will rebound immediately to the carrying capacity of its resources. If anything this is a story about habitat or competition, not simple population loss. μηδείς (talk) 18:27, 22 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • User:Medeis, I strongly urge you to stop engaging in WP:OR to advance your opinions here. It is disruptive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:30, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • I was also about to point this out. I can accept that folks here in general do not see this being important enough to post, but basing an opinion on this matter on guesses about species ecology is quite strange. Not to mention that the reasoning is quite inaccurate: past research strongly relates this to the use of chemical pesticides decreasing available habitat space, ie these are undergoing k-selection, not R-selection. Vanamonde (talk) 19:39, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • I assume you are a psychic, or a psychiatrist, Abductive? Or are you just projecting when you speak of "opinion"? We are supposed to give the reasoning for our oppose, which I did, based on my undergraduate study of population ecology and the relevant concepts, linked to articles. That's not OR. Neither have I expressed any "opinion", pro-or contra Germany or flying insects. Complain to the opposes above saying there's always something to panic about. I agree with them, but I don't see any links provided by them. μηδείς (talk) 19:53, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't see how this can be OR either, although it does seem wrong to me (or at least off the mark; see below). Banedon (talk) 22:19, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose as nominated - I think Medeis is missing the mark. The argument here is about biodiversity loss, not about total population sizes. Analogy: say there were 10 billion insects, coming from 10 million species, 30 years ago (these numbers are not to be taken seriously). If there are 11 billion insects today and only 1 million species, there's no population decline, but there is biodiversity loss. The paper doesn't actually claim biodiversity loss, only population decline; however given the magnitude of the decline sustained over 30 years it seems unlikely that there wasn't also biodiversity loss (it also seems unlikely that this is a short-term effect like that due to winter). I weakly oppose anyway because 1) biodiversity loss isn't explicitly claimed and 2) given #1, it's not fair to link biodiversity loss. Looking at the article, there's pollinator decline. Why not link that? Banedon (talk) 22:19, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, if 9 million species went extinct, we'd have a story. But that's not what the source says, not what the blurb indicates, and not what I have addressed. I notice that my oppose is the only one being taken seriously, while the snarky ones are being ignored. Why are they immune from criticism? I take that as an indication that my critics at least implicitly realize I have posted the only real argument for an oppose worth attempting to counter. If we had a nomination that said just one single insect species had gone extinct, I'd support it vigorously. But that's not what we have here, is it? My oppose stands. μηδείς (talk) 23:17, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cheer up, as you said your oppose is the only one being taken seriously and the only one worth responding to. That's something to be proud of! I've also opposed for the same reason, because the paper doesn't actually claim biodiversity loss (although it's implied). PS, there are a bajillion insect species many of which have never been documented, so it's probable that they go extinct all the time. We have an article with a comprehensive list of endangered insects: there are several hundred. I probably would not support a nomination based on a single insect species going extinct. Banedon (talk) 23:27, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 19

[edit]
October 19, 2017 (2017-10-19) (Thursday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

Sports

Plague Outbreak in Madagascar

[edit]
Article: 2017 Madagascar plague outbreak (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ An outbreak of plague kills at least 74 in Madagascar. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ An outbreak of plague kills at least 94 in Madagascar.
News source(s): The Guardian, ABC, Reuters
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: This is a bit off from our usual postings and it might be worth a mention here. Unfortunately it has not gotten a ton of coverage. Still it's a significant outbreak of plague and that is not something we normally see in current events. Ad Orientem (talk) 16:07, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] New Zealand coalition government

[edit]
Article: New Zealand general election, 2017 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Winston Peters of NZ First chooses to form a coalition government with the Labour Party in the aftermath of the election. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Jacinda Ardern becomes Prime Minister of New Zealand after forming a Labour–NZ First coalition government.
News source(s): http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11933639
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Major news; New Zealand can finally form a government after weeks of negotiation – Nixinova ⟨T|C⟩ 06:12, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would respectfully state that I would not describe NZ as a medium country, with a population of a little less than 5 million. 331dot (talk) 10:00, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose per Bandeon. We posted the results of the election, where it was already known there would be a coalition(as no one got a majority of seats). Unless this is a big news story worldwide, or this result is some sort of surprise(not knowledgeable in NZ politics) we don't typically post both the election and the government forming. 331dot (talk) 09:58, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is a surprise. The National Party won a plurality of seats in the election and would have been expected to continue in government. As the cited source says "The decision will come as a shock to National, which holds two more seats than the Labour-Green bloc and ends its hope of leading New Zealand for a fourth term." --LukeSurl t c 10:10, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose at the moment. Bit torn here; this is surprising news, but we did post the election, and the mayors of most large urban centers in Asia, Europe, or the US serve larger populations than the Prime Minister of New Zealand. Vanamonde (talk) 10:18, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support AltBlurb. The bolded article is quite good, and the story here is the new Prime Minister (head of government) and new government. --Jayron32 12:43, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support alt blurb. This is a surprise, and has made headlines around the world. It's fresh news even if we did post the election results previously.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:00, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note that Ardern hasn't become Prime Minister yet, I'm guessing the formal appointment will happen tomorrow? --LukeSurl t c 13:26, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    In that case, we can always tweak the wording for "Will become" or is "expected to become". That's a small matter, regardless. Her article is quite good otherwise. --Jayron32 13:31, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the alternate blurb; the change in prime minister is worth mentioning. I disagree with the claims that the "result" of the election was posted last month, given that the result wasn't known until several hours ago. The blurb that was posted talked about Bill English and the National Party winning the most seats, but Bill English isn't the prime minister and the National Party aren't forming the government. ♣ Ameliorate! 14:28, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the alternate blurb. In the words of the outgoing Prime Minister, he "questioned whether there was a result anywhere in the world where a party took 44 per cent of the vote and did not win". Nobody knew what the outcome of this was going to be. It didn't go the way that most people expected. It was won by somebody who took over the opposition 10 weeks out from the election when the opinion polls had hit a new historic low. Her meteoric rise has made world news, and winning this election will continue to make world news. Schwede66 18:31, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • I suggest the outgoing Prime Minister might want to pay a little more attention in that case, given that there are numerous examples of elections in which a party got higher votes than that and still lost. Now he has more time on his hands, perhaps Hillary Clinton can explain this to him. ‑ Iridescent 19:34, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the alternative blurb, along with a picture, per User:Schwede66's comments above.— Hugh (talk) 19:26, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I appreciate that NZ is underrepresented at ITN. However, we posted the election result already, and ultimately New Zealand is a tiny country with a population roughly that of Miami. The "her rise has made world news" comments above are ridiculous hyperbole; with the (possible) exception of Australia I doubt one person in 1000 in any other country in the world - including places like the US and UK with traditionally close ties to NZ - has the slightest idea who she is or has ever even heard the name. ‑ Iridescent 19:53, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I must have missed the headlines. Maybe big news in New Zealand. But hardly of the importance or uniqueness that would justify posting this election twice. 81.204.120.137 (talk) 21:04, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Frankly changes of government in countries should be ITN/R no matter what the size. This is important news and we should cover it providing the article is up to scratch. Frankly, I see no reason why we shouldn't post this. If we adopt a rule about not posting a change of government after an election if we have already posted an election, then the rule should be that we don't post a blurb about an election until the outcome is clear. Capitalistroadster (talk) 23:05, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I can agree with that, and will start a discussion on WT:ITNR once this nomination is closed / stale. Banedon (talk) 04:58, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • support I did suggust we wait when the election was posted. We posted when english was made pm after key resigned and this is a much bigger story. Also it is not just a case of the party with the most votes not becoming the government, it is the party with the most seats not becoming the government. AIRcorn (talk) 01:49, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support alternate blurb More significant than the earlier entry on the results of the election (which are never the main story in countries with this kind of electoral system). I can't support the proposed primary blurb though, as it implies that Winston Peters is the PM/head of the coalition. The alternate blurb is fine. Nick-D (talk) 07:10, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted altblurb with a slight tweak of tense. There is a pretty good consensus for posting this now. Black Kite (talk) 10:15, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you, all. This came as a surprise to me, both the news and the matter of seeing it first on WP. Thincat (talk) 17:09, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 18

[edit]
October 18, 2017 (2017-10-18) (Wednesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Law and crime

Politics and elections

[Posted] RD: Gord Downie

[edit]
Article: Gord Downie (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): CBC
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Singer for Canadian rock band Tragically Hip Compy90 

  • Even though his death was expected, I'd honestly argue Gord deserves a full blurb. He was one of the most significant musicians and entertainers in Canadian history. Thst said, obvious support for RD. Resolute 13:24, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb - something to be said about their final concert being watched by almost 1/3 of the country... second only to the 2010 Olympic gold medal hockey match I believe. RD is obvious. Leonard Cohen had a blurb and I'd argue that they are both on equal footing - Floydian τ ¢ 14:03, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose blurb Nowhere near the level of coverage necessary for a blurb, which is lead item on TV news bulletins, front pages of newspapers worldwide etc. To suggest his international name recognition is equal to Cohen's is way, way off. Article quality seems OK for RD though.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:11, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb outright and oppose RD at the moment due to referencing issues. I'm going to shoot myself for this, but given this individual is supposedly so prominent, how come he has articles in only two other languages? Popular in Canada, sure, as evidenced by the unreferenced album charts, but anywhere else? I wouldn't imagine Gary Barlow would get a blurb in a million years, so I can't see any reason why Downie should either. Not really up there with Prince or David Bowie.... The Rambling Man (talk) 14:13, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Chart positions are referenced in the album articles. I oppose nearly all death blurbs, including this one. It's hard to over-state The Hip's influence in Canada where their music is omnipresent. The fact that the CBC aired their final show under the billing The Tragically Hip: A National Celebration should give you some indication. Your concerns about article quality are always welcome. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 17:21, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
By all means copy those references across, we should never rely on other articles for references if it only takes a moment to fix it. I have no doubt he was influential in Canada, just as Gary Barlow is influential in the UK, but if Barlow died tomorrow, we wouldn't blurb him. So we don't blurb Downie. Certainly RD once the quality is sufficient. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:32, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, never heard of them before today.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:17, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've heard of them before, but I didn't know they were Canadian, or such a big thing up there. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:45, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support RD, article looks fine. Oppose blurb like I do for nearly all deaths. He's gone to Fiddlers Green. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 17:16, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment his death isn't really covered in any detail at all, could we get some more information, it just says his family were by his side, I guess that doesn't mean following a car crash or anything, but it's not clear. Some people have said this was expected, even at an early age, so there appears to be a gap in the information here.... The Rambling Man (talk) 18:34, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You need to give us your assessment of the article's quality as that is the only criteria for RD.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:18, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, it's well sourced and fairly comprehensive, it's neutral in its coverage, there's no original research that I can see, It's got quality creative-commons images of Gord, and it's not being edit warred over. No issues here imo. AdA&D 21:28, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] Man Booker Prize

[edit]
Article: Lincoln in the Bardo (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Lincoln in the Bardo by George Saunders wins the 2017 Man Booker Prize. (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: ITNR award. In 2012–2016 there has been an article for the annual iteration of the award, but no such article yet exists this year. LukeSurl t c 09:07, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 17

[edit]
October 17, 2017 (2017-10-17) (Tuesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Law and crime

Politics and elections

[Posted] Battle of Raqqa

[edit]
Article: Battle of Raqqa (2017) (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The Syrian Democratic Forces declare victory in the Battle of Raqqa. (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Note: the BBC anticipate "An official statement declaring victory ... is expected to be made soon." and this should be the trigger to post, but we can prepare in the meantime. Major defeat of IS in their "capital". Although battles such as this have a somewhat ill-defined end-point, posting when the attackers declare victory seems the best option and follows the approach we took for the Battle of Mosul (2016–2017) blurb earlier this year. LukeSurl t c 13:26, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] RD: John Dunsworth

[edit]
Article: John Dunsworth (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): CBCGlobal
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Best known as Jim Lahey in Trailer Park Boys. He's one with the liquor now. Floydian τ ¢ 01:55, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] Liberation of Marawi

[edit]
Article: Battle of Marawi (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The Philippines declares the liberation of Marawi from pro-ISIS groups. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Soon after the death of pro-ISIS leaders during the Battle of Marawi, Marawi is declared "liberated" by president Duterte of the Philippines.
Alternative blurb II: ​ The Philippines declares victory over ISIS in the Battle of Marawi.
News source(s): SunStar Manila
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: This is a significant event after the ISIS trying to gain a foothold in Southeast Asia. STSC (talk) 14:35, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • "However, Brigadier-General Restituto Padilla, an army spokesman, stated that some fighters remained and operations will continue till their elimination" as stated in the article. If the battle is not over, then the blurb is misleading. The article itself is not in a terrible state, but I can't tell from the text if the notion that the battle is completed is factual. I am not opposed to posting this article, but perhaps an altblurb where we highlight the key event we're reporting, which seems to be the deaths of the leaders rather than the end of the battle. --Jayron32 14:48, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The president of the country has already declared the liberation of the city from pro-ISIS groups. Any military operation now is purely a normal mopping-up operation after regaining control of the whole city. STSC (talk) 15:26, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have now added an alt blurb. STSC (talk) 18:43, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I have requested two citations from July section, but other than that I didn't find any major concerns. I would support once the fighting ends completely, which should be imminent. Alex ShihTalk 23:08, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have inserted the citations as requested. STSC (talk) 15:36, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Mopping-up operations come to end. (Reuters) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jenda H. (talk • contribs) 10:06, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 16

[edit]
October 16, 2017 (2017-10-16) (Monday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime
Science and technology

Ex-hurricane Ophelia / Iberian Wildfires

[edit]
Articles: Hurricane Ophelia (2017) (talk · history · tag) and October 2017 Iberian wildfires (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Ex-hurricane Ophelia strikes Western Europe, becoming the strongest storm ever recorded in Ireland. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Ex-hurricane Ophelia strikes Western Europe, killing 3 people in Ireland and fanning fires that killed 39 in Iberia.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Wildfires stoked by Ex-Hurricane Ophelia kill at least 39 people in Portugal and Spain.
News source(s): RTÉ, The Guardian (UK and Ireland story), The Guardian (Spain and Portugal story)
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Death count is very uncertain, since it depends whether you count people killed in wildfires fanned by Ophelia. "Ex-Hurricane Ophelia" is the most common name I've heard, but there are lots of others - "Hurricane Ophelia" (strictly, it stopped being a hurricane a few days ago), "Ex Ophelia", "Storm Ophelia"... Smurrayinchester 08:45, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

But does that make the floods less newsworthy and this more newsworthy? The floods were extensively covered in reliable sources. AusLondonder (talk) 14:19, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Routine, but tragic events, are things ITN does not cover. We don't cover deaths from the annual flood season, we don't cover deaths in war-torn areas, we don't cover most gun attacks in the US, etc. If the numbers exceed any past events, then we may include those events for the notably larger death toll. But we shouldn't be trying to compare different types of events in different parts of the world by death toll; we should be looking at the non-routineness of the event. --MASEM (t) 14:23, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Arguably a storm event in Britain and Ireland is routine, though. The only non-routine part was the way the system originated. AusLondonder (talk) 15:00, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That is a good point and I would support a nomination for the October 2017 Iberian wildfires. AusLondonder (talk) 14:18, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Added the wildfires to the nomination and suggested an altblurb. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 14:29, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I support this approach as well, but the wildfire article needs more expansion to be a target. --MASEM (t) 14:31, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Fortunately this did not do enough damage to merit a posting on ITN.--WaltCip (talk) 14:54, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Oppose – surprising how a water-based storm caused fires to break out, which is unusual. Nevertheless my opposition is weak because the total destruction costs are significantly lower compared to hurricanes earlier this season. Hornetzilla78 (talk) 15:05, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support alt 2 we posted the Californian wildfires, we should post this also. They are not that different (e.g. in death toll). Banedon (talk) 21:53, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose wildfire article It's a stub. No opinion on Ophelia. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:25, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Ophelia article: "Storm in Ireland kills 3" is a minor tragedy that hardly seems ITN-worthy, even if it also kept me indoors for a few hours and broke a flower-pot in my sister's garden - or maybe ITN should lead with "Storm destroys Wikipedian's sister's flower-pot" :) The only problem is that it'd be OR, as I don't count as a Reliable Source (as it was probably my sister's patio, not her garden), but we can't use trivial objections like OR as an excuse for censoring ITN :) No real views on the wildfires, but, even if it eventually achieves the required article quality, we probably should be cautious about the Ophelia link, when the Spanish PM blames much of it on arson, and there's no clear indication of how much of the death toll is due to Ophelia. So arguably somebody should really close this Ophelia nom and open a new Iberian Wildfires nom so the widfires can be properly discussed on their own merits. Tlhslobus (talk) 11:30, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Ophelia article on significance (biggest storm to hit the UK in 30 years) and article quality. Oppose wildfires article as it's a stub.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:17, 18 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know, the death toll in the UK is precisely zero (the Republic of Ireland is not part of the UK). As for quality, the article claims 48 deaths for the storm, but 45 of these are in Iberia which gets barely a couple of sentences in the article. plus a link to a stub (and it's also unclear how many are due to the storm, and how many would have happened anyway) - if 95% of an article about a tragedy is about 5% of the tragedy, that's a serious quality issue (basically WP:UNDUE + WP:BIAS), at least in my opinion. Such distortions are commonplace in Wikipedia articles, but ITN is supposed to be about showing us at our best, not at our worst. Tlhslobus (talk) 10:21, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support for the "strongest storm" blurb. The strongest storm in a country's history, especially a country like Ireland that take whatever the Atlantic throws at it, is newsworthy and in a slower week might easily make it onto ITN. Unfortunately, it pales in comparison to some of the other natural disasters occurring at the moment. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:43, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
What 'strongest storm in the country's history'? - our proposed blurb seems just plain wrong - the article doesn't seem to say that, and The Irish Times seems to deny it, saying:
Storm Ophelia evolved from the strongest eastern Atlantic hurricane in 150 years of records, University College Cork climatologist Dr Kieran Hickey has said.
The tropical revolving storm may not have broken wave or land wind speed records, due to its brevity and intensity, but it may break a record for insurance costs, Dr Hickey has said.
I might add that it's not the deadliest either (11 died in 1961, and out of a much smaller population, compared to just 3 this time, presumably thanks partly to being fore-warned and thus taking sensible precautions), and if it turns out to be the costliest (which is by no means certain yet (as in Dr Hickey's qualifier "may" in the above quote), so using that would violate WP:NOTCRYSTAL), that's probably just because of inflation and the country being much wealthier than it used to be (we are now one of the wealthiest countries in the world, according to these IMF tables, though you'll have to click on the sort arrows for each year to see where we stand). Tlhslobus (talk) 06:46, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose We're doing far too much contorting to squeeze an ITN out of this story. The wildfires pass on notability but not quality. The hurricane passes on quality but not notability. If we are going to suggest that they are the same thing, the wildfires need more prominence in the hurricane article. GCG (talk) 13:30, 20 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] RD: Roy Dotrice

[edit]
Article: Roy Dotrice (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The New York Times
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Article has been updated and well sourced. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 23:06, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] RD: Daphne Caruana Galizia

[edit]
Article: Daphne Caruana Galizia (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb:  Maltese blogger Daphne Caruana Galizia is killed in a car bomb. (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Article is well-sourced. I think the highly unusual manner of her death (Malta is generally a very peaceful country) may warrant a blurb. EternalNomad (talk) 16:35, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] Detection of neutron star merger

[edit]
Article: GW170817 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The LIGO/Virgo collaboration announce the first detection of a neutron star merger event, made using gravitational-wave astronomy. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ The LIGO/Virgo collaboration announce the first direct detection of a neutron star merger and the associated kilonova.
Alternative blurb II: ​ The first observation of a neutron star merger in gravitational waves as well as gamma-rays and visible light is announced.
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Big science news making waves (pun totally intended) in the mainstream press. Article is light but covers the basics. LukeSurl t c 15:40, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I added an alternative blurb with a more balanced inclusion of GW and EM observations. The announcement was made by more collaborations than just LIGO/Virgo. Gap9551 (talk) 17:08, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Closed] RD: Isnilon Hapilon

[edit]
Battle of Marawi has been posted as a blurb, which covers the information here. The submission is now stale in any case. Alex ShihTalk 10:40, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Isnilon Hapilon (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): (CBS news), (BBC)
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Good article suited for main page. Needs some updates regarding dead. Jenda H. (talk) 15:21, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've just found a report that the death has been confirmed by the Phillipines Defense Secretary, which seems official enough. I will add it to the article.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:53, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agree I am suggesting to withdraw this nomination. It is alredy to late to post this. --Jenda H. (talk) 10:17, 23 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Posted] RD: Sean Hughes

[edit]
Article: Sean Hughes (comedian) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Much work still to do on referencing, but it is being worked on. Thryduulf (talk) 11:24, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Kirkuk (2017)

[edit]
Article: Battle of Kirkuk (2017) (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ ISF launches an offensive on Kurdish-held city of Kirkuk 20 days after independence referendum for Iraqi Kurdistan. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ ISF takes full control of Kirkuk following a major advance on Kurdish-held territories 20 days after independence referendum for Iraqi Kurdistan.
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Article needs a lot of expansion. 65.95.136.96 (talk) 03:40, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 15

[edit]
October 15, 2017 (2017-10-15) (Sunday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Politics and elections

[posted] Austrian legislative election, 2017

[edit]
Article: Austrian legislative election, 2017 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The ÖVP led by Sebastian Kurz wins the most seats in the Austrian legislative election. (Post)
News source(s): BBC, The Guardian
Credits:

 --Pudeo (talk) 11:31, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] Kyrgyz presidential election, 2017

[edit]
Proposed image
Article: Kyrgyz presidential election, 2017 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Voters in Kyrgyzstan elect Sooronbay Jeenbekov as President of Kyrgyzstan in the first peaceful transfer of power in the country's history. (Post)
News source(s): (BBC), Novaya Gazeta (in Russian)
Credits:

Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: Historically significant for the country. Featured in well known press outlets such as the BBC and Novaya Gazeta, see above. My name isnotdave (talk/contribs) 19:03, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Closed] Venezuelan regional elections, 2017

[edit]
Regional elections are probably not suitable candidate per WP:ITNR and therefore unlikely to gain consensus. Alex ShihTalk 03:44, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Venezuelan regional elections, 2017 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In Venezuela, the incumbent socialist party wins the majority of the governorships while the opposition claims fraud (Post)
News source(s): (Reuters)
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Per WP:ITNR, as well as a continuation of the current political and social crisis in the country. Jamez42 (talk) 05:43, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

October 14

[edit]
October 14, 2017 (2017-10-14) (Saturday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Health and medicine

[closed] RD: Richard Wilbur

[edit]
Stale --Jayron32 13:36, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Richard Wilbur (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): New York Times
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: A decent article for this prominent US poet & translator who passed away at age 96 (on Sat., Oct 14). Imo, the sources and citations are close to our standard here. It just needs some more attention, and then should be ready to go. Christian Roess (talk) 20:10, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes that's right, attention needed. Yesterday, I added some more citations to address the concerns TMR mentioned. But I didn't have the time to post a status update until just now. Also, (re: Alex Shih's comment about the info box), I didn't immediately spot any problems there. Meanwhile, I'll continue to update the article with additional citations. As time allows. And I hope we can get additional input from other editors. I believe we're getting close to our quality standard here, Christian Roess (talk) 12:25, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unfortunately, it will never make the main page, because it is stale. It is already older (Oct 14) than the oldest currently posted death (Oct 16). Eh. It happens. What are you going to do. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ --Jayron32 13:36, 19 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Posted] Mogadishu bombings

[edit]
Article: October 2017 Mogadishu bombings (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Twin bombings kill at least 320 people in Mogadishu, Somalia. (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Article needs a lot of expansion, but this is by far the deadliest attack in Somalia at least since 2007. EternalNomad (talk) 15:39, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support, if expanded. It is a violence prone region, but BBC and others are reporting this as the deadliest attack in Somalia's entire history. However, the current article barely even gives any context and will need to be suitably expanded before posting. Dragons flight (talk) 16:27, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: The Mogadishu bombings are a critical event. So far at least 237 were dead and the body count is ongoing. However, the article needs expansion plus reactions from world leaders. --cyrfaw (talk) 16:29, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on principle Obviously we need more of an article, but there's enough confirmation of how deadly this attack was, even considering that the area is subject to frequent such attacks. --MASEM (t) 16:54, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support I have done just a few tweaks in structure to provide an "Attack" section to describe the event, but otherwise this is sufficient for main page. --MASEM (t) 15:45, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support violence porn, 200+ deaths, that's the kind of stuff we love to post. 81.204.120.137 (talk) 18:14, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Closed] Harvey Weinstein

[edit]
Consensus is unlikely to form for this entry. Alex ShihTalk 23:21, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed image
Article: Harvey Weinstein (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ American producer Harvey Weinstein (pictured) is expelled from the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences following numerous allegations of sexual misconduct (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ American producer Harvey Weinstein (pictured) is expelled from the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.
News source(s): (BBC), The Independent
Credits:

Article updated
 Mjroots (talk) 08:13, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose With all due respect to Weinstein's career and his achievements, this is an event that revokes his membership from a honorary organisation and mostly impacts his personal dignity. I know that much was going on regarding the allegations in the last couple of days and we have a very good article about it, but it's still not something that should go on the main page in my opinion. Perhaps a mild opposition explains my stance the best.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:35, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – I've never heard of this guy, and though his work is impressive, I don't believe his expulsion from an honorary organization is ITN-worthy. If it was a scandal featuring a handful of Hollywood legends, then I might have !voted differently, but right now it's more like "this successful guy may have done a bad thing and now this respected organization doesn't want to deal with him anymore." No real impact. ~Mable (chat) 10:15, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Oppose. Aside from the reasons given, I'm not sure it's a good idea to post something based on unproven allegations. Possibly if he is arrested, but more likely if he is convicted of anything, would be better reason to post. 331dot (talk) 10:19, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. One of the highest-grossing Hollywood producers. This is unprecedented, and a watershed in the industry (the Academy did this to send a signal that they will no longer turn a blind eye to this kind of behavior).Zigzig20s (talk) 10:58, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • SupportOnly one other person has been kicked out and it was for actions directly related to the Academy. Weinstein is the first to be kicked out over allegations that are unrelated to his Academy status. The allegations have elicited many responses from others in the film industry as well as politicians, especially those that received donations. It triggered a slew of fresh allegations against others, all of which have been covered in the news. --DHeyward (talk) 11:08, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Oppose it's dominated the news for days and should go up. Filmography unreferenced. Early career poorly referenced. "Activism" section reads like a list of bullet points from Breitbart.com. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 11:12, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bold article should be Harvey Weinstein sexual misconduct allegations not Harvey Weinstein. --LukeSurl t c 11:32, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose Key word is allegations. This is a knee-jerk political reaction against something yet proven, and the type of stuff that if we are covering this heavily outside of his article fails NOT#NEWS. --MASEM (t) 12:40, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • As well as a major failure of WP:BLP to cover it in this depth while they remain allegations. --MASEM (t) 12:50, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • How can it be a failure of BLP? All referenced to solid, reliable sources. BLP doesn't say we can't report negative stuff about someone. Mjroots (talk) 18:26, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        • The amount of coverage we're giving this at this time is far too gossipy. They are allegations, no court case, no arrest, no conviction. It's a bunch of celebrity gossip mixed with the political ties that are involved. Obviously some of these effects are needed to be spelled out on his page, but as we are NOT#NEWS, we should be waiting for a lot more details before trying to get into the substance of the allegations, otherwise we are presuming guilty before proven otherwise. --MASEM (t) 22:27, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I never heard of this guy until a few days ago. Not important enough for ITN. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:42, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Wow, your ignorance of the film industry now sets the standard for what is important enough for the main page and what is not. 81.204.120.137 (talk) 12:46, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    You have undoubtedly seen his name at the beginning and end of countless movies.Zigzig20s (talk) 12:52, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    In 2012, Time magazine called him the most powerful producer in Hollywood. Of all time, he is the second-most thanked person in Oscar award winner's speeches (after Steven Spielberg). I would suggest that never having heard of him says more about you than him. Dragons flight (talk) 12:54, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I'm actually very sympathetic to posting about the Harvey Weinstein story, but the Academy expulsion strikes me as the wrong time / wrong hook. His being fired from the Weinstein Company was already more consequential. The announcement of formal charges would be even more serious, potentially followed by trial, conviction, etc. Dragons flight (talk) 12:54, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's the [insert gasp] Academy! Not inconsequential.Zigzig20s (talk) 13:01, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The Academy can expel someone for any reason they see fit. We have things like BLP to regulate such things. 331dot (talk)○
Which is why the focus of the blurb is on the Academy membership, not the allegations.Zigzig20s (talk) 20:46, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for one reason, there's no conviction. This has been all over my news for at least a week, and as lurid and shameful as it appears to be, we simply don't post such tat - innocent until proven guilty. If Weinsein gets convicted of multiple rapes etc, then we could consider posting, but right now this is not what an encyclopedia would focus on. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:36, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Yes, it seems like a tabloid story, but it's all over the news. Now Emmanuel Macron is revoke his Legion of Honour. Agree that convictions are probably years away, but even without these, his career is in ruins. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:15, 15 October 2017 (UTC)p.s. I'm sure Sebastian Kurz will get nominated soon. Might be a worthier, but less notable, nomination. [reply]
  • Oppose and I'd probably oppose even if he's convicted. The article gives no convincing answer to the question "who is this guy and why does he matter". There are plenty of film producers in the world, so why is he notable at ITN level? Banedon (talk) 21:33, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I still oppose this but if it is posted it should just mention the expulsion and not the unproven allegations. 331dot (talk) 21:37, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

 • Comments running 4:1 against posting. Suggest close. Sca (talk) 23:02, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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October 13

[edit]
October 13, 2017 (2017-10-13) (Friday)
Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime
  • Cybercrime
    • U.S.-based Hyatt Hotels discovers another (the other much larger one being in 2015) unauthorized access to payment card information at certain Hyatt-managed locations worldwide between March 18 and July 2, at a total of 41 properties in 11 countries. (Reuters)
  • MS-13
    • Police in Chimaltenango, Guatemala capture Ángel Gabriel Reyes Marroquin, a leader of the notorious Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, street gang. Prosecutors say he is connected to the deaths of at least 287 people. In 2014 Reyes escaped while facing charges including murder from a maximum security prison. Currently, he was also wanted for an August 17 armed attack on Roosevelt Hospital in Guatemala City in which seven people were shot dead. (BBC) (BBC)

Sports

[Closed] Trump initiates Trumpcare by executive action

[edit]
SNOW CLOSE- First the blurb is blatantly POV and secondly this kind of routine political news is pretty much never posted at ITN. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:58, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Article: Trumpcare Executive Order (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ President Donald Trump issued an executive order, and suspended executive branch payments to insurers, effectively replacing Obamacare with Trumpcare (Post)
News source(s): [1][2][3]
Credits:
 bd2412 T 18:42, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose First, this is likely going to be challenged immediately. Second, it doesn't end Obamacare, nor start Trumpcare, it is a tactic aimed to force Congress to act to actually complete the repeal of Obamacare. --MASEM (t) 18:46, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • The suspension of payments, also covered in the article, will begin immediately. It will be challenged, but so is every policy of this sort (we reported on the Muslim-focused travel bans as soon as they were issued, despite the certainty that they would be challenged). bd2412 T 18:58, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose all these Trump "exec orders" are going to be challenged, not followed, ignored, and then overturned in due course. At least that's one good thing about the US electoral system, fixed four-year terms. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:53, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Same reasons as Masem, it is not immediate and will likely have difficulty being enforced along the way. Hornetzilla78 (talk) 18:55, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose another Trumpism at its finest. The main purpose of the executive order is not immediate and as Hornetzilla and Masem have stated, it does not effectively remove Obamacare. Kirliator (talk) 19:48, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose posting this domestic policy change per above. Also a systemic bias issue. 331dot (talk) 19:55, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support because it's in the news. Article is no worse than most of the other barely above stub unlikely to ever be expanded articles we post. There is a whole "Please do not" above about complaining about one country. We don't fight bias by suppressing articles. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 19:57, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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[Closed] Obesity among all US adults reaches all-time high

[edit]
Strong consensus against posting. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:54, 14 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Article: Obesity in the United States (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Obesity in the United States reaches levels never seen before (Post)
News source(s): CNN
Credits:

Article needs updating
 Count Iblis (talk) 23:04, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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[Posted] RD: William Lombardy

[edit]
Article: William Lombardy (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Chess.com, NYTimes
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Article is well-sourced. The post is from an admin of a recognized site so I think it is reliable. EternalNomad (talk) 22:48, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Referencing looks good but there are no details of his death in the body of the article yet. I think we should wait until more details emerge. Hopefully other outlets will report on this. Pawnkingthree (talk) 23:38, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted. I've temporarily commented out the "Notable games" section as the issue has been pointed out by Masem, and the content itself also strikes me as OR without a secondary source. But the rest of the article looks fine. Alex ShihTalk 03:42, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] RD: Albert Zafy

[edit]
Article: Albert Zafy (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Journal Ducmeroun
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Article has been updated and is well sourced. Subject is a former head of state --> --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 16:10, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Closed] 2012 TC4

[edit]
Consensus is against promoting this article. Alex ShihTalk 18:31, 15 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Article: 2012 TC4 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ 10-20 meter (30-70 foot) asteroid 2012 TC4 passes 44,000 km from the Earth's surface, becoming the first asteroid to ever be observed between the Earth and the Moon twice. (Post)
News source(s): telegraph.co.uk sky and telescope
Credits:
Nominator's comments: This has gotten quite a bit of media attention recently- and being the first asteroid in 4 years to be discovered prior to its close approach could be considered pretty notable as well.
EDIT: originally submitted several hours ago, but removed by an IP without explanation exoplanetaryscience (talk) 19:33, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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October 12

[edit]
October 12, 2017 (2017-10-12) (Thursday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

Health and medicine

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

[Posted] Vietnam tropical depression

[edit]
Proposed image
Article: Tropical Depression 23W (2017) (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Flash floods and landslides from a tropical depression (satellite image pictured) kill more than 50 people in Vietnam. (Post)
News source(s): BBC, Reuters, UPI
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Disastrous and deadly floods across northern Vietnam that's only getting worse. A new blurb will likely be needed in 4-5 days as Tropical Storm Khanun is expected to hit the same area and bring even more rain. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 17:31, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Closed] US withdrawal from UNESCO

[edit]
clear consensus to post is unlikely to develop given current trend. --Jayron32 14:20, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Articles: UNESCO (talk · history · tag) and Member states of UNESCO (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The United States announces its withdrawal from UNESCO. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ The United States announces its withdrawal from UNESCO
Alternative blurb II: ​ Israel and the United States announce their withdrawal from UNESCO
News source(s): Dept. of State, BBC
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Fantastic news and we previously posted the withdrawal from the Paris Agreement. Currently no specific article, I'm a bit busy elsewhere. Brandmeistertalk 15:05, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very weak oppose I don't think this is as earthshattering and wrought with issues for the long-term future as the US leaving the Paris climate change agreement. The fact that the BBC article highlights that the reason to leave was more about the claim of anti-Israel stance and the lack of proper financial management, rather than direct issues affecting the US, makes this a strictly political move. --MASEM (t) 15:12, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Oppose the problem here is that it is not immediate, a consideration we overlooked with the Paris Agreement. In this case, it will not take effect until the end of 2018, and like the previous agreement, it will very likely go through a long process acting similar to a filibuster, sort of like what the Brexit process is going through. Hornetzilla78 (talk) 15:38, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • IIRC, we actually did talk about the fact that when Pres. Trump announced the US would pull out of the Paris Agreement, we agreed it wasn't an immediate effect but the point of announcement of intentions (with almost no way to reverse it outside of Trump flipping his decision) would stop it. But that's IIRC. --MASEM (t) 16:46, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, but needs blurb expanding to cover the withdrawal of Israel too. Mjroots (talk) 16:52, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – as Hornetzilla78 mentions, the actual withdrawal won’t occur for over a year now. So posting this is basically premature. Kirliator (talk) 18:09, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support alt 2 and post now - it's in the news now, and we post lots of stuff that don't take effect for a while longer, e.g. elections. Banedon (talk) 19:07, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Withdrawal is not immediate, self-explanatory. 161.6.7.131 (talk) 19:12, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per nom which is odd, this is hardly "fantastic news" (unless I missed the sarcasm flag), but it's worth noting that the proposed blurbs talk to the "announcement" not the withdrawal so most of the oppose is not valid. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:17, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Incertum quo fata ferunt. – Sca (talk) 21:59, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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October 11

[edit]
October 11, 2017 (2017-10-11) (Wednesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

Missing baryon problem

[edit]
Article: Missing baryon problem (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The universe's missing baryons are found. (Post)
News source(s): [12] [13] [14]
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Since it's become a blue link ... Banedon (talk) 10:26, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose, on numerous grounds. The blurb is misleading (only a fraction of them are claimed), the article is simply wrong (the problem has not been resolved), the results have not yet been published in a peer-reviewed paper (just a couple of preprints), it's not even that new (similar claims have been made before) etc. This was an over-hyped press release which I'm amazed even made it into the mainstream media. On its merits, the latest results are something for the specialist astronomy magazines, nothing more. Much as I like seeing astronomy stories in ITN, this is far from a good one. Modest Genius talk 10:48, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Please explain why you think the blurb is misleading or the article is wrong. Shull et al (in the article) clearly stated that 30% is missing, and de Graaff et al (in the preprint) say they can account for 30%. Assuming the results can be trusted, that's all the missing baryons. Banedon (talk) 11:56, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The claim in de Graaf et al. is 30% of the baryons, out of the 90% that were missing. It's right there in the abstract [15]. Nowhere in the preprint do they claim that the missing baryon problem has been solved. And I'll say again: none of this has been peer reviewed. Modest Genius talk 12:10, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
de Graaf et al doesn't say that 90% were missing. It says that "Observations of galaxies and galaxy clusters in the local universe can account for only 10% of the baryon content". That's because the remaining 60% of the baryon content is not in galaxies and galaxy clusters (see Shull et al [16]). This was also touched on in the article. Banedon (talk) 12:24, 13 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Modest Genius: Would still like a response to the above. I don't really mind if this isn't posted, but if there's an error in the article that's a different story. Banedon (talk) 04:27, 17 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Closed] Haumea rings

[edit]
Excellent article (FA), but the consensus is against posting this entry to ITN due to limited news coverage, and the significance of the event itself, even in the field of astronomy, has been contested by many editors. Alex ShihTalk 03:32, 16 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Article: Haumea (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ A ring system is detected around the dwarf planet Haumea (Post)
News source(s): [17] [18] [19]
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: First observation of a ring around a dwarf planet. Banedon (talk) 20:30, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, the reason for that is that we have no article on it. You try finding one (missing baryon problem is a red link). Banedon (talk) 03:30, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly, it's hard. Abductive (reasoning) 03:47, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
PS: To claim "no possible further ramifications" indicates you are not familiar with planetary science. I don't blame you, but just opening the door to the idea that you might be speaking from ignorance. Banedon (talk) 03:32, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You won't be able to identify anything important. "Oh, there are more rings out there than we expected" and "gosh, this fast-spinning object was in a collision and it has rings left over from this collision!" are not interesting. Abductive (reasoning) 03:47, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Your ignorance is showing. I'll point you in the right direction. There are four inner solar system planets, none of which have rings. There are four outer ones, all of which have rings. Why is this so and what does this say about the processes that led to the formation of the solar system + the planets? I'm not going to say anymore however - it's hard to educate the ignorant, especially the ignorant who think they aren't ignorant. Banedon (talk) 03:58, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Are you serious? You are comparing gas giants with an object that has been wanged recently. Anyway, your WP:OR is not backed up by sources including the sources in this nomination. Abductive (reasoning) 06:22, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose due to the section regarding the ring to be very short and lacking several necessary sources. Kirliator (talk) 03:26, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I'm certainly ignorant and don't need it to be pointed out to me, but this is of little consequence to about 99.999999% of our readers. The Rambling Man (talk) 06:14, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. News coverage seems limited and this discovery doesn't seem particularly revolutionary. 331dot (talk) 09:22, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support If the discovery of a ring system around a [dwarf] planet in the Solar System is not significant, then I'm wondering what the astronomic discovery should be to merit inclusion (discovery of extraterrestrial life?). I don't think that the speculative announcements about the discovery of Earth-like planets billions of light years away or the frequent discoveries of new natural satellites are worth more than this. The FA-quality article with the sufficient update is also in favour of.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 09:40, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
To quote The Guardian article: "We didn’t expect to find a ring around Haumea, but we were not too surprised either." Even those finding this don't consider it particularly groundbreaking. 331dot (talk) 09:46, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Hawkeye7: This news is buried in Science sections and niche publications. It isn't top headline news or being widely reported on. Kim Kardashian is often "in the news" but we don't post her. We use editorial judgement, evaluations of article quality, and evaluations of newsworthiness to come to a consensus about what is posted. It is true there is no "requirement" for something to be groundbreaking but that does factor into newsworthiness. Our mission is to educate, but to educate about what people are likely to be looking for or interested in. If this is buried in the media people aren't likely to be looking for it. 331dot (talk) 09:57, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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[Closed] Ongoing: Catalonia crisis

[edit]
Strong consensus against posting this. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:20, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2017 Spanish constitutional crisis (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item nomination (Post)
News source(s): [20]
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Continues to make the news & is still developing. Banedon (talk) 20:34, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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October 10

[edit]
October 10, 2017 (2017-10-10) (Tuesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Sports

[Withdrawn] Ongoing: Humanitarian crisis in Puerto Rico

[edit]
 Request withdrawn —Ecstatic Electrical, 11:20, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Articles: Puerto Rico (talk · history · tag) and Hurricane Maria (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item nomination (Post)
Credits:
Nominator's comments: The Humanitarian crisis in Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria is still ongoing, and may only get worse due to the lack of resources and aid available. This will likely be in the news for quite some time. —Ecstatic Electrical, 01:18, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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[Posted] California wildfires

[edit]
Article: October 2017 Northern California wildfires (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Wildfires in Northern California kill at least 23 people and injure hundreds of others. (Post)
News source(s): NYT The Australian The Independent, Guardian, San Jose Mercury-News, AP
Credits:

Article needs updating

Nominator's comments: While wildfires in California are common, this set has caused more deaths in the state than any others in the past (at least) five years, and is receiving international coverage. Article needs some more filling out and probably merging with the other 2 articles indicated on that page. SpencerT♦C 00:33, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong support - I was going to add a nomination for the Tubbs Fire specifically, since that’s the one that has been on the news recently. However, someone beat me to it with this general nomination. —Ecstatic Electrical, 01:07, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, but WAIT- I support, but I think we should wait until the article has been fully developed and well sourced when new info is added. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 01:20, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support though I don't think it would hurt to wait 12-24 hrs to give time for more development of the article. Currently it is a decently sourced start. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:48, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in Principle, Oppose Current blurb – the death toll is relatively small compared to the destruction these fires have caused. They have already destroyed 2000+ homes and businesses in the region, so I suggest posting an Alt Blurb mentioning the damage done by the fires rather than the death toll solely. Hornetzilla78 (talk) 02:00, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, and I would also support a blurb that mentions the number of structures destroyed. -- Notecardforfree (talk) 02:47, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose looking at the templates at the bottom of the target article, this is an annual event. We have articles for Californian wildfires all the way to 2003 California wildfires, which also killed more than this year's blaze. I see no reason to post this. Causing more deaths than any in the past five years is an OK reason, but rather borderline since five years is an arbitrary benchmark. Even so however, California is but one state of the US. Given that every one of the other states of the US will have their own records for "deadliest wildfire in this state in the past ___ years", why post this? Banedon (talk) 02:58, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If we believed that, we'd make Californian governor elections ITNR and remove the same for Timor Leste. It has < 1/40 the population of Spain, is 1/100 the size of England, wasn't even a country until 2002, etc. Banedon (talk) 07:58, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in principle. The death toll, now 17, is unusually high for a wildfire in a modern country, as is the number of structures destroyed. However, I think the article needs further improvement before posting. Dragons flight (talk) 08:39, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose. I agree that this is an annual event for California and/or the western US. This doesn't seem to yet be an atypical year in terms of damage or casualties. 331dot (talk) 09:43, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    The Tubbs fire is currently blamed for 11 of the 17 civilian deaths. That would make it the third deadliest single wildfire since California started keeping records ~100 years ago. The only CA fires with higher civilian (e.g. non-firefighter) death counts are the Cedar Fire (2003) and the Oakland firestorm of 1991. I realize talking about 10-20 deaths is small potatoes compared to some of the things we post at ITN, but it is rare for people in a place like California to not be able to get out of the way of a wildfire. Dragons flight (talk) 10:54, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in principlesame reasons as Dragons flight. This is undoubtedly in the news. The "why is this special?" argument should only come into play if we are posting too many similar items (i.e. terrorist incidents). That this is an an annual event is not a reason not to post it; 60% of what we have up right now are annual events. This is all academic of course as the article itself is WAAAY short of FP-worthy. GCG (talk) 12:26, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - per Banedon & 2017 California wildfires. There have been several fires in California this year alone. - Mfarazbaig (talk) 12:28, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Death toll up to 17, 100+ missing, 2,000 structures destroyed. This is not a routine event. Sca (talk) 13:18, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Unusually high death toll and devastation of homes, widespread coverage. Banedon, yes California is a state of the US but it has 39 million people and is the world's sixth largest economy so it tends to get more attention than Wyoming or Vermont.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:25, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Re-'wildfires in California are an annual event' oppose votes. Hurricanes are also an annual event, yet we post those that are exceptionally bad. The level of damage, loss of life and the number of missing makes this year's fires among the worst on record. I reaffirm my support. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:02, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on principle, oppose on quality Yes, the wildfires happen every year, we usually don't post them unless their impact is considered significant (eg we posted the Washington ones either last year or the year before for the acreage burnt). The larger # of deaths here is significant - wildfires usually only get a few because states make active efforts to evacuate early. Oppose on quality because while we state 17+ deaths, the table seems to only show 2. --MASEM (t) 14:06, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment some examples of reasons for opposing similar events elsewhere in the world, from the previous few months at ITN (see if you can attach event to the comments):
  1. Tragic yes, but a low fatality count. In addition, the [disaster] occurred in an area prone to such disasters.
  2. Per [someone], low fatality count. And as [someone] states, we don’t post disasters that are virtually common in a nation that obviously suffers from overpopulation. If this did reach the triple digits in fatalities, then I would reconsider.
  3. Violence in a known area of high violence (Ala mass gun shootings in the US) ... I don't see what makes this any different.
  4. At this stage, deaths from flooding in [country] at this time of year is not unexpected, similar to deaths from torandoes in [country] or from hurricanes/typhoons. It's sad news, but also something that does happen regularly. If the floods worsen, then that might be valid to post.
These could all be adapted so very easily to this nomination. Banedon (talk) 20:12, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
 • With the death toll at 23 and rising, 3,500 structures destroyed and 250 people missing, this is the No. 1 story in the English-speaking world – and it's a continuing story. One wonders whether some who oppose posting do so simply because it's happening in the U.S. – Sca (talk) 20:44, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Current top story on BBC: Catalonia: Spain issues deadline to separatists, Channel NewsAsia USS McCain collision was preventable, ship commander relieved of duties: US Navy, Bing news Boy Scouts Will Admit Girls, Allow Them to Earn Eagle Scout Rank, Google news ‘Frankly disgusting’: Trump lashes out at press, threatens NBC over news report he calls ‘pure fiction’. One wonders whether some who support posting do so simply because it's happening in the U.S. Banedon (talk) 21:20, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, from within the UK, the top story on the BBC news website is about Brexit. As ever, news websites are tailored to your locality. BencherliteTalk 21:27, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I didn't say it was the No. 1-ranking story on every notable English-language site in the world. It is on AP and NYT (multiple stories and a video), and it's in the second tier of stories at the Guardian. I am surprised at the lack of play on BBC at the moment (and somewhat surprised that it's high on the English-language site of DPA).
In this case I will admit a degree of U.S.-centrism in my view, in part due to having relatives in NoCal., but I don't see how it's possible to argue that the fires are not a significant, ITN-worthy story given their magnitude and the numbers of people forced to flee from their homes. Sca (talk) 22:20, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Would have supported if the article was sufficient. It is a major news story, and dominates reliable news sources. However, the article itself is woefully stubby, and is not in any way representative of the sheer volume of information available. If someone who wants this on the main page could expand and update the article to a reasonable depth, I would easily support this. It'd probably have already been posted. --Jayron32 22:43, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support article is weak as Jayron notes, but this is still in the news, even across the pond, so it should be posted. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:17, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Regional natural disaster with a relatively low death toll, as far as natural disasters go.  Sandstein  13:40, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • We shouldn't trying to judge the death toll from one disaster type to another, but relative to other disasters of the same type and in the same rough geographic area. (same logic with manmade incidents). --MASEM (t) 13:45, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Changing my vote per "qualities in one area can make up for deficiencies in another." The article is still pretty bare, but the scale of events have escalated and the coverage of this is so extensive that it would ridiculous not to post it. GCG (talk) 14:05, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agree article is rather thin but at least the death toll has been updated and it's well illustrated with maps. Marked ready. – Sca (talk) 14:26, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted — Article is thin, but wildfires tend to be the least cared for natural disasters on Wikipedia. There's just enough to post this to the main page and given magnitude relative to location, I think it's pertinent we do so. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 15:42, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment — I'm one of the editors who has been working on this article. I'm concerned that the "injured hundreds of others" part of the blurb is not well-sourced. The sources I've seen thus far have noted 100 people have been hospitalized. Though undoubtedly many more have suffered injuries, sources for more than 100 injuries are not currently in this article. It might be better instead to note the property destruction, as others have suggested. Funcrunch (talk) 16:44, 12 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Closed] Catalonia

[edit]
Consensus is against posting at this time. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:13, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed image
Articles: Catalonia (talk · history · tag) and Carles Puigdemont (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ President Carles Puigdemont declares that he wants Catalonia (flag shown) to be an independent country, breaking away from Spain. (Post)
News source(s): (BBC Live)
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Major political event. Rough and ready nomination as breaking news. Mjroots (talk) 17:43, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Oppose – while this is a major political move. Catalonia is not an official nation yet. When Catalonia officially becomes an independent nation, then I will support the nomination. At the moment however, this is just a speech suggesting Catalonia should be independent, and thus it is not a nation...yet. Kirliator (talk) 17:57, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose It's just a speech. Puigdemont is not declaring unilateral independence (which perhaps would have been ITN worthy) but just saying he wants to enter negotiations with the Spanish government. Not a "major political event" for me, sorry.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:26, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was ready at my keyboard to nominate if a unilateral declaration of independence was made, but the news here is more of an absence of such an event. For now I'm opposed, but I will support when a unilateral declaration of independence is made (or possibly if a fixed and irrevocable date for such a declaration is set by Catalonia), even if this state is broadly unrecognised. Regardless, Carles Puigdemont should not be a bold article for this, instead 2017 Spanish constitutional crisis should be. --LukeSurl t c 18:31, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait – From the coverage I've seen we're a long way from anything being officially resolved. Keep in mind that those Catalans who are opposed to independence boycotted Sunday's dubiously legal referendum. Sca (talk) 20:21, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ongoing once this rolls off the bottom, and we can promote to a blurb if something else happens. Banedon (talk) 20:25, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose We should be following the same milestones for Brexit as here, barring any odd developments. This is not one of those milestones. --MASEM (t) 20:34, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I oppose for now but will support if independence is officially declared. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:07, 10 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose No major developments from the speech, except to put everything on hold pending negotiations with Madrid. Alex ShihTalk 01:16, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Catalonian independence is not yet official, until a formal declaration is made, my opposition remains standing. Hornetzilla78 (talk) 02:09, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

October 9

[edit]
October 9, 2017 (2017-10-09) (Monday)
Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

Law and crime

Sports

[Posted] RD: Rafe Mair

[edit]
Article: Rafe Mair (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Vancouver Sun,CBC News
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Article has been updated and is well sourced. Notable Canadian radio personality and political critic --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 16:27, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences

[edit]
Article: Richard Thaler (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Richard Thaler is awarded the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 LukeSurl t c 09:56, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 8

[edit]
October 8, 2017 (2017-10-08) (Sunday)
Disasters and accidents

International relations

Politics and elections

[Posted] RD: Y. A. Tittle

[edit]
Article: Y. A. Tittle (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Advocate, ESPN
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Article has been updated and is well sourced. Article has a good article status --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 16:41, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 7

[edit]
October 7, 2017 (2017-10-07) (Saturday)
Armed attacks and conflicts

Disasters and accidents

Politics and elections

[Posted] Hurricane Nate

[edit]
Article: Hurricane Nate (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Hurricane Nate crosses the Yucatan Peninsula and the Gulf of Mexico, resulting in over a dozen injuries. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Hurricane Nate crosses the Yucatan Peninsula and the Gulf of Mexico, causing at least 25 deaths.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Flooding and landslides from Hurricane Nate kill at least 38 people in Central America.
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

RD: Kundan Shah

[edit]
Article: Kundan Shah (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Indian film director and writer. Citation issues Sherenk1 (talk) 08:11, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 6

[edit]
October 6, 2017 (2017-10-06) (Friday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Politics and elections

[Removed] Remove Northern Rakhine State clashes from ongoing

[edit]
Article: Northern Rakhine State clashes (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item removal (Post)

Nominator's comments: Apologies if I'm overlooking something, but it seems like events have considerably slowed since this was posted about a month ago. The last related event I can find is the Hindu mass graves discovered two weeks ago. GCG (talk) 14:18, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nobel Prize (peace)

[edit]
Article: International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ ICAN wins the Nobel Prize in Peace (Post)
Alternative blurb II: ​ The International Campaign to Abolish Nuclear Weapons is awarded the Nobel Peace Prize.
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: and the nobel war prize goes to trump and Kim...
I was right (not as much as '11) ut it had to do with the nuke talks... Lihaas (talk) 07:10, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Utterly, utterly pointless nomination. No announcement yet, so no article to review, and it's ITNR so we don't need to discuss the hypothetical merits of posting. But you've claimed your spot for a nominator's credit, so bravo. BencherliteTalk 09:07, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would add, though, that Lihaas, you should know better- nominations need sources to show newsworthiness. It could have waited a few hours. 331dot (talk) 09:27, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"you should know better" ITNR is given. Just needed the actual "winner"Lihaas (talk) 10:40, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Lihaas: An event's presence on the ITNR list does not remove the need to show that the event is in the news with sources. You have been here enough that you should know this. 331dot (talk) 10:45, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You (or someone else) said the only requirement is an update.Lihaas (talk) 11:25, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The only requirement to post an ITNR item is a quality update, assuming it is shown to be in the news, just as with every other nomination. Even an ITNR item won't be posted if it is not in the news. 331dot (talk) 18:05, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose on quality. ICAN is far from close for main page posting between lack of sourcing and heavy proseline. Also agree that we need to spell out ICAN - I first read this and though "why did the domain register get it?" --MASEM (t) 13:17, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"Proseline" – ??? Sca (talk) 00:18, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
WP:PROSELINE, the block of text that is "On (date), (this happened)" under "Milestones". --MASEM (t) 01:35, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Masem: The article has been improved since two days ago. Can you please check it again.--Seyyed(t-c) 00:49, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Still several unsourced paragraphs, including at least one CN, and one that has an unsourced quote. It's not ready to go. I'd not expect the proseline to be removed, but that still looks like an ugly mess too. --MASEM (t) 00:51, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Overall article quality remains quite poor. Referencing is abysmal. I've added multiple tags. -Ad Orientem (talk) 14:22, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 5

[edit]
October 5, 2017 (2017-10-05) (Thursday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Law and crime
  • Janaúba Tragedy
    • In the town of Janaúba, Minas Gerais state, Brazil, a recently dismissed security guard set fire to a childcare center, killing at least four children and a teacher and leaving 25 others, mostly children aged four and five, injured. (BBC)
  • Cybercrime
    • Alleged Russian government-backed hackers stole highly classified U.S. cyber secrets in 2015 from the National Security Agency after a contractor put information on his home computer. The entrance to the computer was speculated to have possibly been through an installed Kaspersky Lab antivirus. U.S. rules governing federal computers now ban installation of Kaspersky Lab software. (Reuters)

Politics and elections

[Closed] 2017 Jhal Magsi suicide bombing

[edit]
No consensus to promote. Alex ShihTalk 04:47, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2017 Jhal Magsi suicide bombing (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ At least 18 people are killed and more than 25 others injured in a suicide bombing in Jhal Magsi, Pakistan. (Post)
News source(s): Reuters, BBC, Al Jazeera, VoA Indian Express
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: Almost been two months since the last major attack in Pakistan. #AllLivesMatter - Mfarazbaig (talk) 03:54, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose due to low fatality count and being in an area prone to these sorts of incidents. Also, does EVERY terrorist attack whether big or small need be to nominated for ITN, seriously?! SamaranEmerald (talk) 04:52, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support . An attack with 18 casualties is very tragic, but there will be strings of opposes and each'd state "a terrorist attack in a area where it is usual", I totally disagree because it came months last such terrorist attack in Pak. Amirk94391 (talk) 08:08, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support – 18 deaths should always be plenty. I've seen ITN feature much less impactful incidents. I'd like to downgrade on the amount of terrorism featured in ITN and only post things that seem to have a larger impact than "just" on the people involved. However, this is definitely not a "small" terror attack. If this happened anywhere in Europe, it would no doubt be posted right away. I don't really care too much either way, but I could switch to a full support if the article were improved even more. ~Mable (chat) 08:48, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose not seeing it "in the news" anywhere. Online editions re-posting wire stories doesn't count IMO. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 13:08, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Incidents like these are frequent in that area of the world, so its unfortunate that it happened, but not news-worthy in that regard (We don't go by body count for any of these) --MASEM (t) 13:19, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – same reason as Masem, attacks like these are common in Pakistan. Hornetzilla78 (talk) 14:55, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose nominations for terrorist attacks are overused and need to be cut down for ITN. Kirliator (talk) 18:54, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - while I am wary of geocentrism, this story has not appeared on my pretty diverse newsfeeds, and occurred in a region where attacks with such numbers of fatalities are sadly frequent. Stormy clouds (talk) 22:03, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Terrorist attack in an area with frequent terrorist attacks. News coverage seems limited(likely due to the frequency of these events in that area). 331dot (talk) 10:20, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Posted] Nobel Prize (Literature)

[edit]
Article: Kazuo Ishiguro (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Kazuo Ishiguro wins the Nobel Prize in Literature for "who, in novels of great emotional force, has uncovered the abyss beneath our illusory sense of connection with the world." (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ The Nobel Prize in Literature is awarded to British writer Kazuo Ishiguro "who, in novels of great emotional force, has uncovered the abyss beneath our illusory sense of connection with the world."
Alternative blurb II: ​ The Nobel Prize in Literature is awarded to British novelist Kazuo Ishiguro, recognized for his contemporary fiction.
Alternative blurb III: ​ Kazuo Ishiguro wins the Nobel Prize in Literature.
News source(s): nobelprize.org
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: Just awaiting the announcement, any moment now. Lihaas (talk) 11:15, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose until Ishiguro's page fully meets BLP standards. Specifically, the "Literary Characteristics" section needs additional citations. And the bibliography section ("Works") needs citations and/or ISBN's. Christian Roess (talk) 11:57, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Since he has lived in the UK since the age of 5, I think that would be misleading.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:58, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support alt2 pending one cn fix - There is one paragraph that absolutely needs a source, I've tagged it, but once that is fixed, this is ready to go. --MASEM (t) 23:16, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

ALT3 nationality irs irrelevant, we don't post it on other blurbs.Lihaas (talk) 01:12, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

RD: Liam Cosgrave

[edit]
Article: Liam Cosgrave (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): RTÉ
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former Taoiseach of Ireland Stormy clouds (talk) 06:39, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Sheila1988. I realize you are a bit new to the project, but articles being considered for linking on the main page are generally held to a high standard. This article is far below those standards and badly fails our guidelines for WP:BLP, which also applies to the recently deceased as it is substantially unreferenced. Fairly dramatic improvement will be required before this can be seriously considered for posting. -Ad Orientem (talk) 02:11, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Ad Orientem. Although I'm not new, I'm also not too familiar with the standards expected for RD (or for blurb items either - I usually avoid commenting on quality unless I see something bad - I rarely say I think quality is adequate and usually say that I'll leave others be the judge of that). If I (and/or others) clear up all the remaining Citations Needed (I've already cleared up about half of them), would that be enough (at least in your opinion), or would more be needed, and, if so, what? Tlhslobus (talk) 21:22, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Tlhslobus. The usual standard for referencing is that any claims of fact that are not obviously uncontroversial need a cite. From a practical perspective this generally means that every paragraph, again with some commonsense exceptions, should have at least one reference. Many, if not most, will need more. CN tags are helpful signposts especially if the article doesn't have massive gaps in referencing as is the case here. But any paragraph w/o a cite should be looked at closely. There are other standards including that we do not post articles with orange maintenance tags. Thanks for your work on this article and on the project more broadly. Best regards... -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:34, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that clarification, Ad Orientem. I'll have to look at the article more closely, but my initial expectation is that the task has now become too big, at least for me. The standard you mention seems higher than that expected for normal articles (which, if I remember right, is actual CNs, and over 50% probability of getting a CN), but then it's presumably fair enough that a higher standard is required for front page articles. Tlhslobus (talk) 23:08, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've now fixed all the requested citations, but there are still many paragraphs with no citations, and I probably won't even try to supply those (and certainly not for another 12 hours or so), so unless somebody else decides to work on it, it probably won't be brought up to standard in time. But, if so, I guess it won't be a global calamity :) Tlhslobus (talk) 03:30, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 4

[edit]
October 4, 2017 (2017-10-04) (Wednesday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Law and crime
  • Crime in Brazil
  • Cybercrime
    • U.S. fast-food chain operator Sonic Drive-In may have had a malware attack at some of its drive-in outlets and may have allowed hackers to access customers’ debit and credit card information. (Reuters)
  • Aftermath of the 2017 Las Vegas shooting
    • Monday, October 2, the day following the shooting, is now the saddest officially recorded day on Twitter, according to the Hedonometer, which has been measuring happiness since 2008. The increased use of negative words such as "shooting" and "gun" after the shooting resulted in a score of 5.77 on the 9-point scale, where one indicates pure sadness and nine indicates pure happiness. (Vox)

Politics and elections

Science and technology

[Closed] WNBA Finals

[edit]
Consensus is against posting. Alex ShihTalk 05:40, 8 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed image
Articles: Minnesota Lynx (talk · history · tag) and 2017 WNBA Finals (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The Minnesota Lynx win the WNBA championship over the Los Angeles Sparks (MVP Sylvia Fowles pictured). (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Minnesota Lynx win their fourth WNBA championship (MVP Sylvia Fowles pictured).
News source(s): Sports Illustrated, ESPN, USA Today
Credits:

Both articles updated
Nominator's comments: NBA Finals is a recurring item so how about the Lynx who must play for a fraction of the salary. User:Hometown Kid seems to have updated most articles (even biographies of individual players) including the target article. SusanLesch (talk) 14:17, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose principally that WBNA is not one of the ITNR (which we have been over in past to decide against inclusion), and that there's nothing special about this specific tourney to make it appropriate to include. --MASEM (t) 14:22, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose depth of coverage in this article is insufficient. If someone added a synopsis of each game in sufficient detail and references, this would be main-page ready.--Jayron32 14:41, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on the merits as rightfully or wrongly the WNBA does not get the attention of the NBA. 331dot (talk) 15:57, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I want to support this, but the article needs a prose update. ITN/C screams and wails about "systemic bias", but the male bias is easily curbed by improving articles like this. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 21:33, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • I do note we have have talked specifically about the WBNA before when discussing how to present sporting events that have male and female brackets, and my recollection and spot-check is that WNBA simply lacks the broad coverage (moreso, anything outisde of the US) of the NBA finals to make it as equivalent as the NBA. This is in contrast to the US Open for tennis (as where men and women's events are occuring simultaneously) where we agree we should post both due to that. I don't want to make it sound that we're being gender discriminatory here, just that WNBA is simply not popular and fails to usually make international waves. --MASEM (t) 21:46, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • (ec)I would agree if the two leagues were equal in terms of attention, revenue, fans, etc. They aren't, however wrong that is. That's not the fault of anyone here. 331dot (talk) 21:49, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I suspect that's simply a result of it being a single-country event. For comparison, if you compare the Women's Cricket World Cup (which we posted - and then added to ITN/R) that was of course making headline sports news around the various countries involved. I believe we also posted the Women's Rugby World Cup for the same reason. But the main point is that both were multi-national events. Black Kite (talk) 23:00, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Closed] Nobel Prize (Chemistry)

[edit]
Articles not improved. Stephen 22:33, 11 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: No article specified
Blurb: ​ Jacques Dubochet, Joachim Frank, and Richard Henderson share the Nobel Prize in Chemistry for developing cryo-electron microscopy for the high-resolution structure determination of biomolecules in solution. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Jacques Dubochet, Joachim Frank, and Richard Henderson share the Nobel Prize in Chemistry for developing cryo-electron microscopy for study of biological molecules.
News source(s): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-41495621
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: Articles will need some review and cleanup first. KTC (talk) 13:28, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

October 3

[edit]
October 3, 2017 (2017-10-03) (Tuesday)
Armed attacks and conflicts

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

International relations

Politics and elections

Science and technology

[Posted] RD: Lance Russell

[edit]
Article: Lance Russell (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): SLAM Wrestling
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Professional wrestling announcer from Memphis. Member of numerous Hall of Fames. Nikki♥311 04:50, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Closed] Every single Yahoo account hacked

[edit]
Consensus against (re)posting this. BencherliteTalk 11:55, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Yahoo! data breaches (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ All three billion Yahoo accounts were hacked in 2013 (Post)
News source(s): CNN
Credits:

Article updated
 Count Iblis (talk) 22:44, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

oppose no article highlighted and anyways Yahoo is more or less gone
Ah! someone saw the porn in my email ;(Lihaas (talk) 00:22, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Posted] RD: Jalal Talabani

[edit]
Article: Jalal Talabani (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The New York Times
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former president, historic tenure, article updated and well sourced --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 03:35, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] RD: Klaus Huber

[edit]
Article: Klaus Huber (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Die Zeit, Slipped Disc
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Leading composer and academic, with notable students --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:08, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No the lists of the two publishers are given on its top. Do you need which is where? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:34, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Gerda Arendt, is there a reason why the list of works is incomplete? If it's a selected list, what criteria have been used for making the list? BencherliteTalk 11:53, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I don't know. I met the article like this, with this particular selection. In the works section, I only added links. Francis Schonken taught me not to say "selected", so I dropped that work. A complete list of his published works would be long. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:01, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Re. "Francis Schonken taught me not to say "selected"" – incorrect. A section title with "(selection)" without indicating where the selection comes from (thus suggesting it is a Wikipedia editor's POV) is of course as bad as using "selected" in a section title (without indicating where the selection comes from). A selection defined by an external source is usually as tacky (in that case NPOV guidance would suggest one would need at least two independent external sources giving exactly the same selection, which is of course rarely the case). A list should appear without such POVvy qualifiers in the title. If it is for instance all published works, all recorded works, all works with an opus number, or whatever useful criterion, then name that criterion (e.g. "Works by opus number"). In all other cases: no subjective qualifiers in section titles. In that case the list remains open for future editing. The intro of a list (introductory paragraph, lead section) should of course be clear about factual and appropriate selection criteria, if any (e.g. in the case there's a single published biography one could say "the composer's biography lists 20 vocal works, 36 piano pieces and 7 works for orchestra", or whatever is appropriate). --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:41, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification. So, in the short term, could the existing two commercial sources be used to expand the list of works? Does the lack of a complete list of works preclude the article from being posted at RD? Would you support here or not? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:17, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Re. "Does the lack of a complete list of works preclude the article from being posted at RD?" – no, imho. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:02, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Re. "Would you support here or not?" – I'm indifferent, but as far as the "list of works" is concerned there shouldn't be an objection any more from that corner afaics. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:02, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Francis, I think you support what I said: drop "Selected" when we have no idea what the former editor(s)' criteria were, no? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:34, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Rephrased a bit – seems OK now, as far as I'm concerned. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:02, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Editor who know the topic area tell me those sources are reliable and I have no reason to disbelieve them, so that is not the nature of my objection. My objection is that saying "Reliable-Company published Composer A's compositions" does not verify that Composition X is a composition by Composer A or that this work was published by Reliable-Company, we need a citation that this is a work by the relevant composer. Thryduulf (talk) 11:58, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for clarifying. I'm still a little surprised that you seem to be suggesting that either of these reputable publishing houses would not know of the works written by Huber or should not be trusted to report this reliably. If I am still misconstruing your comments, I do apologise. I'm sure any suggestion as to better sources would be very welcome. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:29, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not surprised because we had the same thing for Killmayer. I'll see what I can do. It should not be too hard because the Ricordi pieces are all on one page. Schott is better organized. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:07, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thryduulf, done. They were all from the Ricordi page. I added one from Schott. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:46, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've spot checked a few and everything mentioned in those was verified on the linked page, much of it very nearly verbatim. I don't have enough subject knowledge to know whether that is an issue or not though (and don't have time now to learn, or work out where the best place to learn would be) so I've withdrawn my objection. Thryduulf (talk) 11:58, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So, 48 hours on and we have no opposes here? Admin attention needed? Ready to post? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:12, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nobel Prize (Physics)

[edit]
Article: No article specified
Blurb: ​ Rainer Weiss, Barry Barish, and Kip Thorne share the Nobel Prize in Physics for their contributions to the LIGO detector and the observation of gravitational waves. (Post)
News source(s): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-41476648 [21]
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 -- KTC (talk) 10:38, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose on quality at the moment. Weiss' article is mostly good, just a couple of citations needed for awards (which I'm about to look for), Thorne's article starts well but needs attention in the latter part and Barish needs significant referencing improvements to most sections. Thryduulf (talk) 10:51, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on quality of all three, but mainly at Thorne's article. Weiss is okay (but that long list of publishes seems CV-ish and unnecessary for WP), and Barish could see some TLC to improve it a bit. --MASEM (t) 13:17, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 2

[edit]
October 2, 2017 (2017-10-02) (Monday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Health and medicine

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

[Closed] RD: Paul Otellini

[edit]
No consensus, and nomination has turned stale. Alex ShihTalk 14:27, 9 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Paul Otellini (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Mercury News
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Former CEO of Intel. Needs a lot of sourcing work. MASEM (t) 17:27, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Posted] RD: Arthur Janov

[edit]

Article: Arthur Janov (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The New York Times,

Dagens Nyheter
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Influential psychologist and article has been updated and well sourced --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 23:21, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Closed] [Posted to RD] RD: Tom Petty

[edit]
Consensus will not form for a blurb. BencherliteTalk 09:08, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Tom Petty (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): LA Times (updated)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Possibly worthy of a blurb (very well known, successful musician), but I am unsure of this and so will leave it up to others. Everymorning (talk) 20:09, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD. Article quality is hugely improved. Still a couple CN tags but not enough to hold up posting. -12:32, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose Not even close to ready. Citations needed and a close paraphrasing concern. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:17, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on quality. As Ad Orientem points out, this isn't just a few tags, and by the time those are all fixed, a blurb might be too late. --MASEM (t) 20:19, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weakly support blurb on grounds of significance (today is unusual because the Las Vegas incident has disrupted broadcasts, but under normal circumstances he'd pass the "would television networks change their scheduled programming to run a tribute?" test). Oppose both blurb and RD on grounds of quality—there are too many uncited sections in the article, including some material that would be potentially legally problematic if it turned out to be untrue. ‑ Iridescent 20:20, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oops! The close paraphrasing tag was added in error and I have removed it. However referencing is unacceptable. Apologies for the screw up. -Ad Orientem (talk) 20:42, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The level of attention the article is now receiving suggests it will be fixed relatively soon. So I'd suggest those who currently oppose might want to reassess sooner than after the usual 24 hours. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:59, 2 October 2017 (UTC) p.s. except I see that folks are still disputing whether he's actually dead?[reply]
  • I for one hope that this was simply a misinterpreted release and that he no longer requires life support as opposed to being taken off life support due to brain death. My parents bought and listened to Full Moon Fever when I was two, and they are still my earliest memories of life 28 years later. - Floydian τ ¢ 23:05, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Prince and George Michaels and that German Chancellor were mistakes, not precedent. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 13:24, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You're saying that it was community consensus that posting Helmut Kohl with a blurb was "a mistake"? I don't recall it being pulled. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:13, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I know this is not the right place to argue the point, but you're seriously calling one of the most important figures in the Cold War, German reunification and EU integration "that German Chancellor" and not worth a blurb? Anarcho-authoritarian (talk) 14:51, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Similar thing as Anarcho-authoritarian here, but Prince broke the "most views in a calendar week" record on Wikipedia with 13 million (that David Bowie broke only three months before having died on a Sunday and thus had the entire week, and Prince died on a Thursday and so had less than half a week to achieve that, if a week is defined as any period of 7 days (April 21 to 28) he had almost 17 million views) and temporarily broke his own article, and you're saying his posting to a blurb was a "mistake"? I see only 5 people giving something other than unilateral support, and all of those were either "wait until we know it's him" or about quality, and that was one person, and the issue was rectified. Now I presume you'll be saying posting Chuck Berry was a mistake? -A lad insane (Channel 2) 15:16, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
LOL even the DE wiki didn't blurb Helmut Kohl, and yes, I'm calling that blurb a mistake. My threshold for a death blurb is simple: media coverage. Thatcher, Mandela, Michael Jackson it was DAYS of round-the-clock coverage and IMO those stories warranted a blurb. Hell, even Hugh Hefner (for which people were screaming 'support blurb') was out of the headlines by the afternoon. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 15:35, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well ok, you can call it a mistake, by all means. That's not quite the same as an agreed community consensus that it was a mistake? "LOL". Martinevans123 (talk) 15:51, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The consensus was wrong, and I said as much at WT:ITN and fortunately we're pushing back against the absurdity somewhat. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 16:21, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't think consensus could be wrong or right. It's just consensus. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:48, 3 October 2017 (UTC) [reply]
(edit conflict) Prince was not a mistake. See this, this, this, for that matter this. There was plenty of coverage, even days and weeks after. -A lad insane (Channel 2) 18:53, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Closed] Governor General of Canada

[edit]
No consensus. Stephen 03:33, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Articles: Julie Payette (talk · history · tag) and Governor General of Canada (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Former astronaut Julie Payette is installed as Canada's 29th Governor General of Canada. (Post)
News source(s): CBC
Credits:

Both articles updated
Nominator's comments: Governor General of Canada is the representative for the Monarch in Canada, and has a constitutional role in the country's federal governance. --Natural RX 15:57, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Additional nominator comment: see WP:ITN for installation of preceeding GG. --Natural RX 16:02, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Unless there is widespread international coverage of this, I would oppose. The Governor General's role is limited and largely dictated by convention. As stated, the GG represents the head of state, and is not head of state themselves. 331dot (talk) 16:00, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose pointless figurehead. Someone recently proposed changing ITN/R so that the actual person in charge (in Canadas case, the PM) would be the item posted but they were ruthlessly shouted down so instead we get to have these occasional good faith but ultimately doomed nominations. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 16:09, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As detailed further down, that "figurehead" does have real power and occasionally exercises it, even in modern times. - Tenebris 66.11.171.90 (talk) 09:40, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
A change in Canada's PM is posted with a general election(as it was with Trudeau). 331dot (talk) 16:15, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Not totally a ceremonial role. Michaëlle Jean was directly influential in retaining the government of Stephen Harper (2008–09 Canadian parliamentary dispute). In 1975, Australian G-G Sir John Kerr actually did dismiss one prime minister and shifted the government to the opposition party (1975 Australian constitutional crisis). So there is real power there, and even in modern times it is occasionally exercised. - Tenebris 66.11.171.90 (talk) 09:36, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Closed] Monarch Airlines

[edit]
No consensus to promote. Alex ShihTalk 05:12, 7 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Monarch Airlines (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Monarch Airlines goes into administration, leaving 110,000 people stranded and necessitating the UK's largest peacetime airlift. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Monarch Airlines, the UK's oldest surviving airline, goes into administration, leaving 110,000 people stranded and necessitating the largest British peacetime airlift.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Monarch Airlines is declared insolvent, leaving 110,000 people stranded and necessitating the UK's largest peacetime airlift.
News source(s): Guardian, BBC
Credits:
Nominator's comments: The size and suddenness of the bankruptcy (oldest airline in the UK, 110,000 people stranded) and the response make this noteworthy. Smurrayinchester 12:21, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Given the number of people stranded, this seems notable in the business/airline world. The context of the term "administration" wasn't clear to me at first(probably my US language bias). I wonder if it would be clearer to state simply the agency now operating the airline is doing so. 331dot (talk) 12:44, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nomination. Thryduulf (talk) 12:59, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose I recognize the sizeness is what makes this notable, but I would argue that this falls under a "first world problem", in that 100,000+ people are inconvenienced while a airline basically closed up shop on them, and then need to find alternate arrangements to get home. Also, I would avoid the term "airlift" (I don't see it used in either Guardian or BBC), as the aircraft being used for this are just planes chartered from other airlines (commercial), not military. --MASEM (t) 13:35, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in principle, but all three blurbs are misleading. Nobody has been left stranded anywhere outside UK. CAA have arranged alternative flights for all passengers affected. Mjroots (talk) 14:45, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose If this was a slow news day, maybe. But we've got a lot going on in the world from Catalonia to Iraq to Las Vegas. Can't see that it meets the high significance required for ITN. We have no idea whether the business will be able to restructure and continue operating. In addition, 10 other airlines have ceased operating this year (see Category:Airlines disestablished in 2017); did we post any of them? AusLondonder (talk) 15:13, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@AusLondonder: We can't post what isn't nominated, and off the top of my head I don't believe any of those were. That isn't reflective of its newsworthiness. 331dot (talk) 15:21, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support article is good, top of business news. This is, after all, "in the news" not "what I think SHOULD BE in the news". --CosmicAdventure (talk) 15:24, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Query. Can someone explain the "airlift" part of this? I would have assumed that if your flight is cancelled then it is mostly a matter of arranging travel of another airline covering the same route (ideally at around the same time as you planned to travel anyway). Are they actually sending special planes to pick people up? Is that happening at times other than when the people would have been expected to fly anyway? I am trying to understand the degree to which this story is about an "airlift" as opposed to being about a bankruptcy. Dragons flight (talk) 15:31, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I presume that these 110,000 people had paid for tickets back home, which they now can't use if the airline is not operating. They also don't want to(or can't) purchase new tickets. The BBC states that the CAA is sending 30 planes to take these people home. 331dot (talk) 15:35, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
30 planes making how many trips? Even with the world's largest passenger planes, 30 trips would amount to no more than about 10% of the people said to be affected. By itself 30 planes actually doesn't sound that impressive, especially given that Monarch ordinarily operated 35 planes. And how is it different from just flying the routes Monarch was supposed to fly anyway, except with no outbound passengers? Also, if all you want to do is get people home, wouldn't it usually still be more cost-effective to pay to buy them a ticket on a different airline. The article seems to suggest they are doing some of that as well. Dragons flight (talk) 15:55, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well 1, I think it's not Monarch doing the flights, but that's the interesting part of the story. Some airline here in the US went bust a few years ago with 3 days notice, they didn't leave people stranded. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 16:05, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Basically the CAA of the UK had to create a "ad hoc" airline from the 30 planes they got from other carries. However, they are definitely not "rushing" as one would an evacuation: they are telling vacationers, for example, to keep to their schedules if they are already out of the country. And its likely not all 100,000 ppl need to be transported on these, only those that cannot make easy alternate arrangements with other carriers. It does sound like the CAA is encouraging this other carriers to be as helpful as possible to reduce the load they have to take. --MASEM (t) 17:56, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Dragons flight, my reading of it is that a total of 110,000 currently have no means to get home. But these holiday-makers' return journeys will be spread over the next two weeks or so (whatever the length of the average Monarch holiday is) - they won't all be trying to come home at once. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:16, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
oppose per above.Lihaas (talk) 01:46, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Posted] Nobel Prize (Medicine)

[edit]
Proposed image
Article: No article specified
Blurb: ​ Jeffrey C. Hall, Michael Rosbash, and Michael W. Young (pictured) share the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for their discoveries of molecular mechanisms controlling the circadian rhythm. (Post)
News source(s): https://www.theguardian.com/science/live/2017/oct/02/the-2017-nobel-prize-in-physiology-or-medicine-live
Credits:

Article needs updating
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: Articles need improvement first. KTC (talk) 10:04, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Talk about the devil, just mentioned it in ITNT. Week has begun. Anyhoo, no nonsense posting IFF there is a relevant update.Lihaas (talk) 10:12, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Posted] Las Vegas shooting

[edit]
Article: 2017 Las Vegas Strip shooting (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ At least 50 are killed and 200 injured in a mass shooting at a concert in Las Vegas. (Post)
News source(s): [24]
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Major mass shooting at a Las Vegas concert with at least 20 killed and 100 injured. Dragons flight (talk) 08:38, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ooh, ooh, what did trump bloviate? ;0Lihaas (talk) 10:01, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
neutral but the article is crap. needs to be expanded better to be notable.Lihaas (talk) 09:57, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify it was ongoing at the time, I was not following it as I was busy with Catalonia, but obvious support.Lihaas (talk) 01:33, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
the article says 20 not 50 though. else that will make the Mumbai article below as notable.Lihaas (talk) 10:57, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There is no Mumbai mass shooting below. The closest I'm aware of is the 2008 Mumbai attacks, which had far more casulties but was non a simple mass shooting and in any case IIRC was posted. Please note a stampede is not a mass shooting. (It's possible for people to be killed by a stampede as a result of a mass shooting, but it wasn't the case for the example below.) By the same token, we may or may not post a natural disaster with a 20 people death toll but 20 people isn't a big death toll for a natural disaster. Nil Einne (talk) 11:44, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I was atalking about casualty count. Anyhoo, now this is clarly notable.Lihaas (talk) 01:35, 3 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed; it is the deadliest mass shooting in US history.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:37, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting support – The well-regulated militia strikes again. Sca (talk) 13:30, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting support A senseless and unthinkable act of violence. Perhaps we should indicate that this is the deadliest mass shooting in modern US history (which has been reported by many reliable sources)? EternalNomad (talk) 13:37, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting support and agree that we need to emphasize that this is the deadliest mass shooting in modern US history. Ancora e ancora.--WaltCip (talk) 13:43, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would be very concerned about the POVness if adding "deadliest mass shooting" to the existing blurb. I have zero doubts that the stories this week from the US will be gun control related, and we know there's going to be an infinite amount of finger pointing of how this guy got a machine gun and the rifles they found in his room. We know this is going to be reason to ask why we have such lax gun control laws, but as an encyclopedia, we should not being trying to engage in how bad our control laws we have, and pointing out how bad this was leans in that direction. --MASEM (t) 14:57, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Considering that even you evidently assumed there was a machine gun involved (no article I've read, including our own, mentions automatic weapons, nevermind that actual machine guns are not generally portable and operable by a single individual) and for some reason our own article goes into a tangent about American gun laws, ingeniously pointing out that semi-automatic weapons are legal in Nevada as they are everywhere else in the country (there's no legal distinction made and it's completely unclear why semi-automatic action as opposed to various other types of firearm action was important here), I'd say you are very, very correct that we should be wary of bias. The article as it stands clearly wants to appear neutral while being not-so-subtly antigun, which is not our duty here. Just the facts will suffice. - Lvthn13 (talk) 15:07, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • FYI, while I haven't read any official word as to what the weapons were, witnesses have described it as a machine gun [26]. 331dot (talk) 15:10, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        • The fact that this was the most serious mass-shooting in U.S. history, if accurate and reliably sourced, is a neutrally stated fact and need not be omitted merely because someone might draw a conclusion from it or cite it in support of a position. Wikipedia does not take positions on social or political issues itself, but presents facts—but one of the values of presenting neutrally worded, reliably sourced facts is to help people become better-informed. If there is non-neutral language in the article, that should be discussed and if necessary remedied there, but it is a separate issue. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:30, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
          • The issue is principally with the brevity of space we have at ITN, not the fact itself. In context of a full article, it absolutely deserves mention, as there is more than enough space to into any necessary qualifiers or comparisons. In an ITN, the short space we have for it to highlight that one fact makes it stand out as pro-strong gun control because we don't have any other context we can give in 25-some words. It creates sensationalism that we should be avoiding. Note though that under-riding this concern is the implicit "knowledge" that the US has lax gun control laws. If it were, say, Canada, or Europe, or the like, that implicit idea of those countries having lax gun control laws is not there, and therefore it wouldn't raise the same issue, and thus may be reasonable to include if that were the case. Here, though, the fact it is a gun crime in the US immediately slants the issue. --MASEM (t) 15:38, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thanks, I scanned a few articles but never saw this one. I can see why someone might read this and, knowing no more, take that at face value, but there almost certainly was not a machine gun involved, which is exactly why I emphasize that we should exercise caution. There doesn't appear to be many details available right now, and the temptation to fill in some of the blanks with lurid and unlikely descriptions of menacing weapons should be avoided. As for mentioning that this may be the most deadly mass shooting in US history, that is a neutral fact and one I myself am neutral on, but I question the real importance of such narrowly defined trivia - it uses criteria for specific type of mass murder and a single country. Singling out American mass shootings seems to me very much akin to systemic bias. - Lvthn13 (talk) 15:44, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    As a footnote, should the death toll climb about 67, this event will have a potential claim as the deadliest mass shooting ever anywhere. 67 is the number of victims shot in the 2011 Norway attacks which currently holds that unfortunate distinction (not counting the additional 10 deaths during those attacks that were not caused by gunfire). Dragons flight (talk) 15:47, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

October 1

[edit]
October 1, 2017 (2017-10-01) (Sunday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Sports

[Posted] RD: Edmond Maire

[edit]
Article: Edmond Maire (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Noblecourt, Michel (1 October 2017). "Mort d'Edmond Maire, ancien secrétaire général de la CFDT". Le Monde. Retrieved 1 October 2017.; "Décès d'Edmond Maire, ancien secrétaire général de la CFDT". Le Figaro. 1 October 2017. Retrieved 1 October 2017.; "Décès d'Edmond Maire, ancien secrétaire général de la CFDT". Libération. 1 October 2017. Retrieved 1 October 2017.
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: French labour union leader; dismissed strikes as "old labour mythology"... Zigzig20s (talk) 23:01, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Closed] First same-sex marriage in Germany

[edit]
Consensus against. BencherliteTalk 09:10, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed image
Article: Same-sex marriage in Germany (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The law on same-sex marriage was triggered by the German election and came into effect today. The ceremony in Schöneberg was the first ever, attended by all relevant media and one of the main topics of news in Germany today. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ A law on same-sex marriage in Germany comes into effect.
Credits:
 C.Suthorn (talk) 14:45, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There was still full ban on same-sex marriage in some US states. Contrary there were same-sex unions in whole Germany since 2001. So difference is not so big as in the US case. --Jenda H. (talk) 16:58, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Posted as blurb only:] Catalonia

[edit]
Articles: 2017 Spanish constitutional crisis (talk · history · tag) and Catalan independence referendum, 2017 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Amidst a constitutional crisis, an independence referendum takes place in Catalonia, Spain. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Catalonia vote for/against independence in a referendum amid clashes with Spanish police in which at least 460 are injured.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Amidst a constitutional crisis and civil unrest, an independence referendum deemed to be illegal by Spanish courts takes place in Catalonia, Spain.
Credits:

First article updated, second needs updating

Nominator's comments: Today is the day. Regardless of what happens it is going to be news. Madrid will try to suppress, the Catalan govt and mayors will support, students vowed to hold tertiary institutions to hold a vote. Hopefully no violence, but news is there, for sure. Lihaas (talk) 04:04, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017 is scheduled for today. Probably together with 2017_Spanish_constitutional_crisis in Ongoing? --Tscherpownik (talk) 01:24, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

 Done
Rubber bullets now being fired. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 11:47, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait - need to see how this plays out over the course of the day. Mjroots (talk) 09:44, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb only strong oppose ongoing. This is actually "in the news" now and a blurb is appropriate. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 11:30, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb only later today when this has all shaked out. Blurb should mention Spanish attempts to physically prevent voting and/or the fact the referendum is illegal. 331dot (talk) 11:57, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait − A significant story beyond Spain in view of minority separatist strains elsewhere, but posting should come after events or effects become more clear. Sca (talk) 13:32, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This is major international news, especially in light of the violent actions of the Spanish authorities. Federal police attacking regional police and firefighters in a European democracy is unprecedented in modern times. AusLondonder (talk) 15:31, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Not sure what we're waiting for. Two substantial and well-written articles here. Both deserve a front page link. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:07, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for blurb that indicates the result from the referendum and mentions the violence that has already resulted in several hundreds injured.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 17:21, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb, this needs to be up. Ambivalent about ongoing – I can see the arguments for waiting a bit (perhaps until the blurb is pushed off the recent events list if it's still ongoing). Leaning towards support for ongoing though just because I am sure it will still be in the news then, but, WP:CRYSTAL. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 17:51, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb only but Wait – the referendum only lasts 24 hours, which is not enough time for such an event to be posted as ongoing. As usual we should wait for the results before officially posting the blurb. Hornetzilla78 (talk) 18:10, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted as blurb only. There appears to be consensus to post this, and whilst we usually wait for results, this is somewhat moot in this case as the Spanish authorities have already declared that it is invalid anyway (Rajoy has just said "no referendum has been held in Catalonia today") and the news reports are mostly based round the unrest during the process. Obviously editors may wish to tweak the blurb to reflect such unrest and as such I leave the discussion open for that. Black Kite (talk) 19:05, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't mind wording like that which you cite but I felt it would make the blurb too unwieldy. This vote is considered illegal by the legal system which Catalonia is currently subject to, that's just a fact. They can go and attempt to do it anyway, but that doesn't change the fact it is illegal. 331dot (talk) 20:25, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've never said anything was more illegal than anything else. I was simply going for a simpler blurb. I would accept a similar wording to the Kurdistan blurb(or that one could be changed). 331dot (talk) 20:45, 1 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
hmmm..good question. I would support but leve it to the community to decide.Lihaas (talk) 09:53, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If the blurb is going to mention the result, it should also mention that the vote was non-binding and unconstitutional. --CosmicAdventure (talk) 10:33, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Closed] Jagmeet Singh

[edit]
No consensus. Stephen 02:41, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed image
Article: Jagmeet Singh (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Jagmeet Singh becomes the first non-white individual to lead a major political party in Canada (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian The Independent The New York Times
Credits:
 Jon Kolbert (talk) 14:24, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
  1. ^ Klein, Philip; King, Robert; Leonard, Kimberly (October 9, 2017). "Daily on Healthcare: Trumpcare is coming to an association health plan near you". The Washington Examiner. Washington, D.C.: Clarity Media Group. Archived from the original on October 9, 2017. Retrieved October 12, 2017.
  2. ^ Gleckman, Howard (October 13, 2017). "Middle Income 50-Somethings Will Be Big Losers In Trumpcare". Forbes. New York City: Forbes, Inc. Retrieved October 13, 2017.
  3. ^ Liptak, Kevin (October 12, 2017). "Trump will end health care cost-sharing subsidies". CNN. Atlanta: Turner Broadcasting System. Retrieved October 12, 2017.
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