Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Bands and musicians

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This is a collection of discussions on the deletion of articles related to Bands and musicians. It is one of many deletion lists coordinated by WikiProject Deletion sorting. Anyone can help maintain the list on this page.

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Bands and musicians

Mohamed Aarab

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Not sure how this passed AfC. Almost certainly a promotional hoax. All the sources cited in the article are dead and likely never existed. This "singer" doesn't have a single video/song on Youtube or any other platforms. There is 0 coverage of him, and I searched his name looking for both coverage in Arabic and French. Mooonswimmer 19:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. @Mooonswimmer Did you try searching in Arabic? I don't think it is a hoax as this link popped up when I searched using his Arabic name: [1]. He clearly is a real musician since his albums have a discogs listing. Whether he is notable is another matter.4meter4 (talk) 19:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On second look, I'm not sure this is the same artist. That complicates matters in sourcing content.4meter4 (talk) 19:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The musician in the Discogs listing is clearly not the 20-year-old Riffian singer-songwriter and producer the article is supposedly about. Mooonswimmer. Yes, I did search in Arabic. Nothing at all. 19:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Morocco. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 20:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Florat

AfDs for this article:

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As of November 2024, there has been no new media coverage or updates since the previous deletion proposal, and the subject still fails to meet Wikipedia:Notability. Iaof2017 (talk) 10:39, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Albania, Kosovo, and Switzerland. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 11:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ALBANA (artist)

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Subject fails to meet Wikipedia:Notability, with no verifiable career achievements or significant news coverage to support its inclusion. Iaof2017 (talk) 10:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Women, and Albania. Shellwood (talk) 10:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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delete. I dont see anything that claims of the career achievements- no point. Cooldudeseven7 _{join in on the tea talk} 12:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jim Siizer

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Non notable musician. Spam from blocked sock farm who built a walled garden for Lot Fire Records. Refbombed with lots of PR placements which lack independence. Really not a good idea to try pass off the same press release as two different articles [2], [3]. "In the ever-evolving world of music, where talent is plentiful and creativity knows no bounds, there are individuals who rise above the rest, setting new standards and blazing trails in the industry. One such luminary is the accomplished musician and music executive, Bash Luks, ...". Obvious PR. Wikipedia is not a PR platform. duffbeerforme (talk) 03:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:NOTPROMO. Additionally, fails WP:MUSICBIO and WP:GNG.4meter4 (talk) 05:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Actors and filmmakers, Bands and musicians, and Uganda. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete although this will rob the world of the opportunity to access the sources used and such timeless prose as "The partnership between Jim Siizer and Lot Fire Records is poised to set new standards in the industry, ushering in a promising era of musical excellence." Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 08:58, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Off Ryine

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Non notable musician. Spam from blocked sock farm who built a walled garden Lot Fire Records. Refbombed with lots of PR placements which lack independence. "As Off Ryine continues to pave the way for the next generation of Ugandan musicians, his legacy as a singer-songwriter remains firmly rooted in the history and spirit of Uganda. Through his music, he has brought the rich traditions of his country to the world stage, earning accolades and admiration for his unwavering commitment to preserving and celebrating Ugandan culture." Obvious PR. Wikipedia is not a PR platform. duffbeerforme (talk) 03:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:NOTPROMO. Additionally, fails WP:MUSICBIO and WP:GNG.4meter4 (talk) 05:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Uganda. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Lot Fire records is an automatic red flag now. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 09:21, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More Tyme

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Non notable musician. Spam from blocked sock farm who built a walled garden Lot Fire Records. Refbombed with lots of PR placements which lack independence. Really not a good idea to try pass off the same press release as two different articles [4], [5]. "In general, "Balage" is an awe-inspiring addition to More Tyme's expanding discography. It truly showcases their exceptional musical talent and artistic vision, making it an appealing choice for both long-time fans and new listeners seeking fresh and innovative sounds. The song serves as a testament to More Tyme's unwavering dedication to their craft, setting a high standard for their future releases." Obvious PR. Wikipedia is not a PR platform. duffbeerforme (talk) 03:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:NOTPROMO. Additionally, fails WP:MUSICBIO and WP:GNG.4meter4 (talk) 05:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Uganda. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Oh, there are MORE of these? The press releases truly surpass the excellence of fabulousness to enter a new realm of unexpected delight. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 09:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Davide Lombardi

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A draft that was moved into mainspace. It's mostly sourced with press releases. A WP:BEFORE search failed. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 02:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Engineering, and Italy. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 02:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep. Passes WP:SIGCOV (barely). There definitely needs to be some serious pruning of bad promotional sources and writing, reformatting of the article, editing for encyclopedic tone, etc. However, there are four articles among the references which are independent significant coverage about Davide Lombardi; three of which are in the LightSoundJournal, which is a professional publication for light and audio engineers, and one of which is from an Italian media source. He works as a sound engineer for notable artists, so I am leaning on the keep side.4meter4 (talk) 03:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@4meter4 That's a valid point; however, a reminder to anyone else reading this that Lombardi doesn't inherit notability from the people he works with. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 04:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete They are all interviews - and in trade media, at that. The other sources are blogs or references to events where the subject has worked. Doesn't pass WP:GNG. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 08:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Amie Jo Bishop

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Came across this because of its use of paid/vanity coverage in the Bru Times News. Apart from that source, the article has two reviews in the Northwest Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. Although I take these reviews somewhat seriously, I think that reviews in one publication falls short of WP:NCREATIVE and/or WP:NMUSIC. There is also an interview in a source of uncertain reliability, and several citations to the discography of the subject. It looks WP:TOOSOON to me at best. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 17:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Arkansas. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 17:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Actors and filmmakers and Women. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ana Reis

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Not yet notable as a musician, filmmaker or writer. A WP:BEFORE search in English and Portuguese turned up very little coverage in reliable sources, just primary sources, blogs and passing mentions in secondary sources. Some of Reis' family are apparently notable, but on Wikipedia notability is not inherited. Wikishovel (talk) 15:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Actors and filmmakers, Authors, Bands and musicians, Women, and Portugal. Wikishovel (talk) 15:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Wikipedia Editors,

I am submitting a request to retain the Wikipedia page for Ana Reis, as her work has significant cultural, artistic, and historical relevance that justifies her inclusion in Wikipedia. Ana Reis is a notable artist with unique contributions to the art world. Although there may be limited online information readily available about her, this should not detract from her established importance.

The scarcity of online references does not accurately reflect her accomplishments but rather relates to documented personal circumstances, which may have contributed to her underrepresentation in digital sources. (Redacted) These elements, though private, have affected the availability of Ana’s contributions and thus hindered the broader recognition she rightfully deserves.

Despite these challenges, Ana Reis’s contributions to the art community have resonated deeply with her peers, and her work has been recognized in several exhibitions, publications, and private collections. Her notability is rooted in her artistic achievements and the influence her work has had on contemporary art. I respectfully ask that these factors be taken into account when reviewing her page for retention.

Thank you for considering the broader context surrounding Ana Reis’s significance. Her page serves as a vital source for those interested in learning more about her unique contributions to art and culture. Sanguedereis (talk) 16:06, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is fine, but we need sourcing in reliable, neutral sources. That's the issue. Oaktree b (talk) 16:08, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Beside online sources what else is needed? Fellow artists can provide statements and testimonies as well as links to existing works can be provided. Where can these be sent or uploaded to? And is there any deadline for this?

Additionally please be aware person in question is under ongoing and systematic attacks, (Redacted). There are plenty of bona fide artists with scarce sources deemed not too reliable, and it's not positive either for person in question, to request further silencing and invisibility. That is in a way or another enabling and endorsing the abuse against them. Thank you. Sanguedereis (talk) 17:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not to be accusatory but this text reads to me like it was generated from a large language model. -1ctinus📝🗨 19:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That text is written manually in own words. Sanguedereis (talk) 20:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: A book "awaiting publication" is not notable, this appears to be PROMO. There are hardly any sources to be found about this person when I look. Sourcing in the article isn't helpful either. Oaktree b (talk) 16:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Totally agree on PROMO. No substance, fails WP:GNG. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 16:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This case concerning Ana Reis's recognition isn’t due to any lack of relevance or a genuine artistic dimension but rather to complex life circumstances that have severely limited her access to fair opportunities and visibility. her background is marked by high-profile abusive influences and substantial evidences are available to prove that. She faced systemic obstacles that have stifled her career in ways that very few people experience. However, being very active from 2000 until 2026, both her network and collaborations show an artist with a substantial history of work,, including mention by utmostly respected musicologist who has noted her contributions. However, these connections haven’t shielded her from isolation and undue obscurity.

Due to aforementioned undue influences, she worked alone, with no fundings or grants, no publicity, no 'promos' whatsoever as someone mentioned above, no producers, no promotion machines. Over the years she struggled immensely to have valid and thorough media coverage for her work that deserves deeper considerations and study in its inner world of imagination and symbolism. Equally, aforementioned undue influence/s have occupied most her life keeping her, much against her will, away from her own professional and creative activities, under severe devaluation and micromanagement. This caused her to over the years lose reliable social networks, professional support, and public exposure. Her work and impact became underrepresented, often leaving her vulnerable to having her career and reputation questioned or undervalued, which cause rightful feeling of demoralization and injustice.

The controversial situations she has been denouncing touch a subject taboo, the cruelty of narcissistic mothers towards their daughters, who often become invisible and unheard under a stifling, toxic parent who wants all the spotlight and the daughter is left 'inexistant'. And that is also why it is so important to recognize her contributions and unique originality of her work, rather than allow further erasure. Evidences of her past collaborations and testimonials from many fellow artists over the years, are being requested and underway, as this may greatly help to an accurate acknowledgment of her creative works. Ana is worthy of a fair chance to be seen for her artistic contributions rather than being made invisible. What some have said in the remote past that 'the press ignored them' is on Wiki too and taken as fact, but that's an affirmation of absolute falsehood and doesn't correspond at all to real facts (Redacted), and it's thoroughly disappointing when a privileged person presents false complaints but does exactly the same they complain about, to who they should never sabotage the light they receive. Thank you. Sanguedereis (talk) 20:48, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Administrator note Some comments in this discussion have been redacted as breaches of WP:BLP. Please do not post contentious but unsourced material about living persons. -- Euryalus (talk) 21:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nominator. I've nothing to add to the well worded rationale. JFHJr (㊟) 02:14, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete As always, we are guided by what is out there in reliable sources, and this falls far short. Edwardx (talk) 11:41, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tehace

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Tagged for notability for 12 years. Fails WP:NBAND. I could not find any reviews of their work in reliable sources (I searched for the band and album names, first in conjunction with review then with recenzja.) Geschichte (talk) 09:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Poland. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 12:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The most likely looking coverage here, the Winter Crusade Tour 2002 review from rockmetal.pl notes the band was brought on as a last minute substitution and that's pretty much all there is there. Everything else is passing mention or promo. Out there in the big bad world there's blogs, Facebooks, Bandcamp. So, yes, fails GNG, BAND. They do make some very interesting noises, I have to note... Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 10:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The J-Gos

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I do not think that this hyperlocal band meets NCREATIVE or GNG. I see one review in a hyperlocal newpaper, and little else of substance. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 10:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and California. Shellwood (talk) 11:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sheleen Thomas

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Too short article and also cited content doesn't enlighten the subject as a significant coverage.–– kemel49^{(connect)(contri)} 19:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. kemel49^{(connect)(contri)} 19:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women, Dance, and New York. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 19:47, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Nothing found for this singer, brief association with a song then seems to have faded away. Even the sourcing now in the article is slim... Oaktree b (talk) 21:41, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Soul Solution, So Pure!'s other name, the band who had the charting single she performed on. duffbeerforme (talk) 06:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Shakir Pichler

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Article contains no reliable sources, has been marked as such for over 4 years. I've looked for sources but have been unable to find anything reliable or reputable, Google News, Newspapers and Books turns up nothing at all. Current text is likely original research, possibly advertising - suspicion they've been written by the person the article is about. Also question the notability. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Halfwaywrong (talk • contribs) 13:12, 12 November 2024

Delete - seems self-promotional, not even 130 results on Google Search. Not much on Google News either, bunch of social media links or brief mentions. starship.paint (talk / cont) 13:24, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Actors and filmmakers, Bands and musicians, and Australia. Skynxnex (talk) 17:15, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Starship.paint. and Halfwaywrong.

I was a bit surprised to see this page nominated for deletion out of the blue after its been online since I think 2007 or so.

There are currently About 1,570 results in google for "Shakir Pichler" in quotes and that's not including the extraneous ones if googled without quotes.

The sources are reliable - IMDB for example but I think it could do with some proper formatting perhaps.

I have edited it from time to time when others have added incorrect data as well as removing old social links like myspace from the days of old :) and this page is also linked on various other wiki pages band line-ups and feature films for example.

It's certainly not being used for 'self promotion' in any way but it is factual of someone who has made a worthy contribution to both Australian music as well as Australian and Hollywood feature films so not sure why it was targeted to be honest.

There are a bunch of other credible links I could provide when I have the time and I should edit the page to make it more up to date at some point.

Anyway, again, it's definitely not 'self promotional' just because I made sure it was factual.

I'd love some help in adding all the proper ref links (film credits) (Band credits) and things to make sure it adheres to any changing wiki regulations.

Thank you. Sexbeatrecords (talk) 01:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Sexbeatrecords: - allow me to acquaint you with WP:RSP, where you can see that WP:IMDB is in fact generally unreliable. I suggest you find reliable sources to bolster the article. starship.paint (talk / cont) 11:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Starship.paint. Thanks. Wow, I always thought IMDB was highly ranked but good to know.

Every film credited on this wiki page is verifiable on each feature film's official imdb sub page but interesting to know it's not a reliable link even though some of the titles are big Hollywood movies.

Hopefully there are links to each film's official info separately somewhere although I have no idea where to look. The production companies involved perhaps?

WP:RSP does mention that there are exceptions to the unreliable sources. I would have thought that each film's official IMDB entry would be ok? like for one example "Jasper Jones" and then view all cast and crew to see "Shakir Pichler' listed as action vehicles coordinator. etc https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5091014/ Or still not good?

As I mentioned, I'd love to clean up the formatting of this page to adhere to Wiki's best practice. And how to add and format proper inline links...

Thanks again for your quick reply and advice. Sexbeatrecords (talk) 08:19, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sexbeatrecords: - actually the main concern here is WP:GNG. To put it in a different way, is Shakir Pichler a notable (prominent/important/distinguished) person? Wikipedia does not seek to write entries for everyone on Earth. If Shakir Pichler is notable, reliable sources will write about him. There will be journal articles, books, newspaper articles, magazine articles. It is up to you to prove that Shakir Pichler is notable by receiving reliable source coverage. starship.paint (talk / cont) 08:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of people seem to think so!

Considering how many Australian bands he has played and recorded/released albums with, released music videos aired on shows like ABC RAGE and interviewed multiple times on radio stations like Triple J & then there is the film industry side - considering how many feature films he has been THE action vehicles coordinator of and in also appearing IN some of these films, he should absolutely have a wiki entry that documents and links with these achievements. Bit surprised this is even in contention tbh.

There are lots of newspaper articles regarding Shakir Pichler in those bands in hard copy that go back to the mid 1980's that are not available online. 157.211.92.236 (talk) 12:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
city of sydney library https://library.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/Montage/Music.aspx?keyword=shakir+pichler&method=0&sort=1003&refinements= Sexbeatrecords (talk) 12:57, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again.

I found 2 pages that speak about Shakir Pichler in The Encyclopedia Of Australian Rock And Pop which is the Oz music Bible for want of a better word.

You are welcome to 'borrow' it for free digitally if you don't have it - the book is mentioned here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopedia_of_Australian_Rock_and_Pop

You can borrow it here https://openlibrary.org/works/OL2288124W/The_encyclopedia_of_Australian_rock_and_pop

About Shakir Pichler in the kryptonics - page 352

And about Shakir Pichler in The bamboos - page 39

I will keep looking for other links when I have more time. That is a good one. Great book to have too.

Shakir Pichler also mentioned on Whammo encyclopedia in the Bambooshttps://web.archive.org/web/20040427212519/http://www.whammo.com.au/encyclopedia.asp?articleid=68

And also in the Kryptonics here https://web.archive.org/web/20040807052007/http://www.whammo.com.au/encyclopedia.asp?articleid=997

These were two VERY important original bands from Perth who toured, released and contributed and pioneered WA's rich musical tapestry of original music nationally and internationally. Sexbeatrecords (talk) 12:52, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

History of Australian music https://historyofaussiemusic.blogspot.com/search?q=kryptonics

Also Nick Sheppard - the guitarist from seminal UK Punk band THE CLASH even mentions Shakir Pichler https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Sheppard Sexbeatrecords (talk) 13:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Didi Beck

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No indication of meeting WP:NMUSICIAN. Promotional. Tagged as problematic for 11 years. Did release an album Ultrafetter Bass in 2023, which has only barely been able to break 1,000 Spotify plays; also, only has a couple hundred followers on Facebook. (These being indicators of non-notability.) Geschichte (talk) 06:41, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - fails WP:GNG. Searched Google News, got three results of only brief mentions. [6] [7] [8] (last article is paywalled but seems to be more about the band]. Also his band Boppin' B does not have a page here. starship.paint (talk / cont) 08:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Germany. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 11:47, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Bellbirds

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Corresponding to the tag that has been sitting on the page for 11 years, it looks like they completely fail WP:NBAND. Geschichte (talk) 06:42, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - only four news articles on the band, and each only gives them a mention, no in-depth coverage. starship.paint (talk / cont) 08:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete this does not get close to WP:GNG or WP:NBAND. The references in the article do not establish notability for the band with the scanty discussion of the subject. Mekomo (talk) 10:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Alexeyevitch^(talk) 11:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and New Zealand. Shellwood (talk) 11:03, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete but previous commenters need to be less sloppy in their appraisal. This source^[1] from the article can comfortably considered "in-depth coverage". However that is really all I can find. This band appears to be a side-project of some otherwise notable musicians, so perhaps could just be mentioned as such on their individual articles. David Palmer//cloventt ^(talk) 00:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Bellbirds are in song", Stuff, 2010-10-20, archived from the original on 2017-08-12, retrieved 2024-11-13

Perukua

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Likely to fail WP:MUSICBIO/GNG.

Apparent WP:GAMENAME of title (phonetic spelling). See [9] and [10] KH-1 (talk) 07:15, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - so many albums but does not seem to have much commercial success. Less than 200 Google Search results for Perukua Less than 70 Google Search results for "Peruquois Frances". This is not someone who is especially popular. starship.paint (talk / cont) 08:04, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Women, and Australia. Shellwood (talk) 11:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cheema Y

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Likely to fail WP:NMUSIC KH-1 (talk) 06:03, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

any reasons to delete it ?

i can show you wikipedia pages that have no reference at all that people are not even famous.

but rightnow in north india this singer trending on number one.

give reasons to delete it mr.editor.

thanks. 2001:56B:3FFA:2FFE:C955:65B4:E1FE:305F (talk) 10:24, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That response comes across as quite immature. Are you really suggesting using other articles as justification for keeping this one? That’s not how we determine whether an article should be deleted. This is Wikipedia, and popularity alone doesn’t equal notability. I suggest familiarizing yourself with Wikipedia's notability guidelines before making such arguments. — MimsMENTOR ^talk 08:39, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Punjab and California. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 11:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep

This musical artist is very popular in India. I have noticed a general trend over both wikipedia and wikidata, that artists who are popular in countries outside of the USA are often deleted due to not meeting "notability criteria" despite them often being in the top 10 of popular artists in their own country, especially for artists from India or Africa.

There are lots of articles on the internet showing his popularity from independent well respected sources e.g.

Please consider keeping this entry. Thank you. QWER9875 (talk) 10:02, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Brent David Fraser

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I have carried out WP:BEFORE and added some references to this previously-unreferenced BLP of an actor. These are passing mentions, however. I do not think he meets WP:NACTOR, WP:ANYBIO or WP:GNG. Tacyarg (talk) 18:01, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete Like the nominator, I was unable to find any significant coverage of Fraser, just cast listings and brief mentions in movie reviews. The closest to any biographical information was a Seattle Times movie review that added "Bellingham-raised" to his name (because it's local). (ProQuest 385333344) Not a notable actor at this time. Schazjmd (talk) 18:12, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Note, often credited as the shorter name Brent Fraser. Satisfies NACTOR with significant roles in Wild Orchid II: Two Shades of Blue (as Brent Fraser, and Dead & Breakfast. (When I am able I will add sourcing that verifies that). Mentions in reviews is an important part of judging actors. They act in things. That's what they are known for. That's the sort of thing that should be in encyclopaedias. Who'd they play and in what. duffbeerforme (talk) 05:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jaydes

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No WP:SIGCOV in RS. Recent coverage is in non-RS, e.g. WP:SPORTSKEEDA and no-byline content mills like The Express Tribune. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:49, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: Fails WP:SINGER, non-notable per WP:CRIM. --Leonidlednev (T, C, L) 15:58, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
keep the wiki 83.98.52.238 (talk) 14:53, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Jaydes could arguably pass WP:GNG and WP:SINGER even without considering the coverage stemming from his recent arrest. Prior to his arrest, he received in-depth coverage from Pitchfork: [11], [12] and coverage from The Fader: [13] with both sources being considered reliable by WP:MUSIC/SOURCE. Concerning The Express Tribune, although it might appear questionable, it should be noted that it is not considered unreliable by Wikipedia standards and could be substituted or further supported by this primary source confirming his arrest: [14]. It should also be noted that Jaydes was signed and released 2 albums heartpacing and ghetto cupid: [15] under 10K Projects: [16] whose parent company is UMG, a major record label. With that being said, he would satisfy criteria 5 of WP:SINGER having 2 albums released under the label. Given the despicable nature of his acts and his position in the underground music scene, it is undoubtable that Jaydes will be of high interest. Furthermore, given that there was enough information coming from reliable sources and that I believed Jaydes passed the notability requirements, I sought to create this article to serve as a base for reliable information in a time where misinformation could be prominent. Célestin Denis (talk) 17:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Milan the Leather Boy

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The article has 13 references, but the issue with them is that many of them aren't reliable sources and/or don't provide significant coverage. I wasn't able to find significant coverage of the subject in reliable sources. I can find mentions, like less than 30 words about a Milan release in an issue of Cash Box ([17], page 26, bottom right corner). toweli (talk) 16:15, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Tararam

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Mostly unreferenced topic, with unclear notability. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 04:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Hebrew Wikipedia article has 27 references. Left guide (talk) 05:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep - This is not "mostly unreferenced," , furthermore, it should be noted that notability is not related to the current state of the article. As Left Guide noted, the Hebrew article has plenty of sources. The topic meets the threshold of notability. Whizkin (talk) 06:47, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

M. R. Mathias

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Poorly sourced. Fails WP:BEFORE search. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 21:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete I found coverage of him in one independent source, a Publishers Weekly article.[18] It looks like all of his books are self-published. I didn't find any other significant coverage of him or his books. Doesn't meet WP:NAUTHOR or WP:GNG. Schazjmd (talk) 22:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
weak keep The CNN source used in the article is a RS, and the Publisher's Weekly cited above seems ok; two sources about an author, that's more than what we see in some articles about authors here. Oaktree b (talk) 23:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The CNN ref is an iReport, user-generated content ("citizen journalism"). Schazjmd (talk) 00:00, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
probably delete (weak delete) I didn't really conduct that much research, though it doesn't seem like he's that notable. not significant coverage by major outlets, review websites. has zero books that are so ubiquit that they show up everywhere, including LibraryHub's bookmarks, kirkus, publishers weekly, end of the year lists. no major literary awards according to isfdb and sfadb. even nominations. best he has is nominations for locus, which isn't good enough to keep unless he wins one. royal not listed as a 2011 nominee for locus award for scifi, fantasy, ya, first, or any category here https://www.sfadb.com/Locus_Awards_2011 Create a template (talk) 01:27, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(unsigned misplaced comment) I can confirm that all of his novels were self-published. The publishing company is Mathias Publishing. He owns this company as a fictitious business name. The business is not registered in his home state of Oklahoma. I am in favor of deleting the article as it does not meet the requirements for ‘notable’. I apologize if I’m not using proper editor quotes and references. I contributed to this article 8 years ago correcting misinformation and guesswork. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Biouxtai (talk • contribs) 02:17, 9 November 2024 (UTC) moved into place by 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 08:22, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The book was not nominated, that source was one individual persons votes. Not the nominations list. duffbeerforme (talk) 04:11, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
[19] Actual voting form that allowed write-in votes. duffbeerforme (talk) 00:00, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I really feel bad for arguing for a delete since the guy has gone through so much and come out the other side, but he just doesn't pass notability guidelines at this point in time. When I looked back around 2020-ish, I couldn't find anything and didn't find anything now either. The CNN source is from iCNN, which allows users to submit articles. If the article gains enough attention CNN might pick it up (in which case it would become usable as a source) but that wasn't the case here. I wasn't certain about the Locus Poll Award, but as Duffbeerforme stated, this seems to be a Locus Award where voters can submit their own write-in candidates. This is different from the other Locus Awards, where the list is chosen from books the publication has reviewed and is far more selective. Now if they'd won the award that would certainly be something to contribute to notability, but that wasn't the case here either.

I really hope that the guy is doing well and continues to do well, because overcoming the stuff he's been through is frankly amazing. It's just unfortunate that he never gained coverage in places Wikipedia would see as reliable and counting towards notability. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (｡◕‿◕｡) 19:17, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Fails WP:NAUTHOR. References are predominately to primary sources. 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 08:44, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Self-published author. Almost no visibility (I searched library holdings; copies in bookstores; reviews in standard sources). The Publisher Weekly article is nice, but not sufficient for notability. Lamona (talk) 18:44, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Self Taught

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Does not appear to meet WP:NBAND. I can't find any secondary reliable sources covering the band at all (although search engine results may be skewed by the name). Completely unsourced article with an external link to their MySpace. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: I tried a search using only Canadian websites or media, still nothing. I'm not finding enough sourcing for notability. Oaktree b (talk) 23:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:GNG and WP:NBAND. I deleted two sections that self-asserted copyright infringement. Three other sections I tagged as without sources. I copy edited and stubified it. There’s almost nothing left except a WP:DICDEF. Bearian (talk) 17:23, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I thought it wasn't necessary to tag each section as unsourced when the entire article itself is already tagged as unsourced? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Singapore Wind Symphony's Percussion Ensemble

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Subgroup of an ensemble that currently does not have a page. The Singapore Wind Symphony may be notable from my research, but the percussion ensemble is not. Why? I Ask (talk) 18:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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delete no evidence of notability. --Altenmann >talk 18:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - sounds interesting, but there aren’t enough sources to make even a stub. Bearian (talk) 03:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. The Drum: A History (2012, Scarecrow Press) gives it a brief mention as a notable ensemble on page 186. It's not in-depth, but a fact that the ensemble even gets a nod in an academic book about the history of the drum is a clue that the ensemble may be notable. This is an article about the group winning an international percussion competition. This is an interesting article promoting a Berlin concert; although it clearly wouldn't be considered independent. It's possible foreign language sources exist about the group given they have toured to Europe as well as in Asia. Perhaps something in the Berlin press for example? 4meter4 (talk) 06:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ani Rodríguez

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Fails WP:MUSICBIO, local bar singer, participated in a show but did not even win. [https://www.facebook.com/p/Ani-Rodriguez-Sarmiento-100044291116682/ Is still active according to Facebook, but as an Amy Winehouse impersonator. Geschichte (talk) 17:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Bash Luks

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Highly dubious notability. Sources seem to be all press releases and promotional interviews. Full of promotion (" Bash Luks is known for singing inspirational and advocacy songs" and trivia (a section on his own description of his tattoos). Bishonen | tålk 20:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. Part of a promotional walled garden based on PR. Sources read as pure ridiculously over the top promotion. Not independent. duffbeerforme (talk) 02:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello duffbeerforme,

I understand that the sources may seem questionable and not entirely independent. However, I'd like to clarify that I am an editor from Uganda, and those blogs are widely recognized and trusted within the Ugandan media landscape. Bajaj250 (talk) 19:35, 13 November 2024 (UTC)— Bajaj250 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
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Delete looks like a potential notable musician except that the sources are from gist blogs and interviews, a further research for WP:BEFORE subject is not in verifiable in independent sources, hence subject fail WP:GNG Tesleemah (talk)
Keep. Are we looking at the same article and sources? Clearly passes WP:SIGCOV. Appears to be the primary subject of multiple by-lined articles written in mainstream Ugandan media. The articles used aren't blogs but newspapers and independent online media with editorial oversight. There's no reason to believe that the sources are A. not independent (they have by-lined authors who are journalists) or B. Unreliable (they are from publications with editorial staff). The fact that some of the articles go into trivial content like tattoos is not surprising. This is no different than an entertainment journalist writing about Cher's wigs, or Michael Jackson's nose. Celebrity coverage is often vapid in the press.4meter4 (talk) 23:12, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
4meter4 You are not identifying which you think are good here so I base this on your comment on the Lot Fire afd. First you say Kampala Dispatch is a reputable newspapers. Is it? A (admittedly quick) google search didn't impress me much on this magazine. Here one writer has five articles on him with overly promotional language. "The composition not only highlights the duo’s musical prowess but also showcases their artistic vision, appealing to both their established fan base and new audiences seeking innovative sounds. The song serves as a testament to Bash Luks and Off Ryine’s steadfast commitment to their craft, setting a commendable standard for their forthcoming releases." Looking at their entertainment section it appears he is their only writer. and He's praising Big Size Entertainment in glowing terms in September 2024 [20], how they are "championing local talent while highlighting the rich diversity of Uganda’s musical traditions." despite being shut down in 2018. Next came Tower Post. [21]. More than one writer but there does not seem to be many articles in this publication. Only ten in the last year, half being for Lot Fire artists. "The visuals are equally awe-inspiring, captured and directed by Almagic Uganda. The video showcases Jim Siizer relishing the breathtaking outdoor scenery alongside stunning models." "Through his music, Jim Siizer seeks to initiate a thoughtful discussion about the diverse attitudes towards homosexuality and the implications they hold in different societies. The song serves as a platform to address the complexities surrounding this topic, fostering a broader understanding of the cultural differences and social norms that shape these contrasting views." That's not independent journalism. Next News Ghana (of Michelle Tyson fame). [22] no byline. "His exceptional musical talent and unwavering ambition provide him with the necessary tools to ascend to the pinnacle of success." PR blurb. duffbeerforme (talk) 13:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Kampala Dispatch and The Tower Post have an editorial staff and a staff of independent journalists. Generally when we evaluate magazines and newspapers that is what we look for. Critical assessments can be positive; because after all they are the opinions of the critic writing the piece. Most small papers only have on-staff entertainment journalist/critic, so its not surprising they have the same author. You of course are free to disagree, but I would suspect that the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard would support that the articles are indeed independent given they have by-lined authors and they are local media with staffed editors and journalists. Best.4meter4 (talk) 15:17, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would love to see the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard tested with the prose from these sites. I'll order the popcorn, will I? Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 16:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete with fire. We really, really don't need to know about his tattoos. This coverage isn't just vapid, it's rampant, blatant, purple PR puff. Fails WP:GNG. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 10:01, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ricardo A. Haila

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The draft for this already exists, the sources are low-quality, and it failed a WP:BEFORE search. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 20:12, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Thank you for the feedback. I understand the importance of quality sources and the need for thorough research. I am working on improving the article and will focus on providing more reliable and high-quality sources to support the claims. The music and performances of artists like Ricardo A. Haila represent a unique blend of Middle Eastern and contemporary percussion styles, contributing to the diversity and richness of the musical landscape. Ritaknazarian (talk) 20:28, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete for lacking any reliable sources. Bearian (talk) 04:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete larger part of the subject is completely unsourced and out of 4 references listed, only 1 look like a potential with others being interviews and gist blogs. Tesleemah (talk) 06:06, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, this young musician is not yet notable per WP:MUSICBIO. The sources cited so far are interviews, plus his name mentioned in passing in a Paris gig announcement. Searching for his name in English and Arabic only turned up more of the same, including the "proud to be participating" interview already cited, which has been posted to many sites. Wikishovel (talk) 09:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Had to remove a bunch of promotional stuff while browsing earlier, wasn't convinced that it met notability at all, but gave it the benefit of the doubt. But now that this has been brought to AfD, can confidently cast my delete vote. Procyon117 (talk) 16:31, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I did not find any significant coverage about the subject. SATavr (talk) 17:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC)SATavr[reply]

Comment. Performing at the 2022 FIFA World Cup would seem to indicate some level of notability as a musician. Has anyone searched for sources in Lebanese Arabic? If there are independent quality sources I would assume they would be in that language.4meter4 (talk) 23:26, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

H4yyee

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Lacks reliable sourcing, both within the article itself and in the WP:BEFORE search. I tried draftication, but it was moved back. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 20:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete, Snow. Could even call it an A7 speedy. Simply not notable. SpamLinkBombed self promotion. duffbeerforme (talk) 04:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree with an A7 speedy deletion. Clearly an attempt at self-promotion, with links to his spotify page (which isn't even his website), and full of links to spotify songs. No notability whatsoever. Procyon117 (talk) 16:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete – I found one interview in local newspaper Smålands-Tidningen [23] but although independent it is not secondary, it is nowhere near sufficient to show notability, and it says that he is an up-and-coming musician so at best this is too soon for an article. --bonadea contributions talk 10:41, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, even with the Smålands-Tidningen source it's not enough for any notability standard. AlexandraAVX (talk) 13:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Fails WP:SIGCOV. Clearly a case of WP:TOOSOON (if ever).4meter4 (talk) 23:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wanderlust (American band)

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Shows no signs of notability. Found this article in Billboard, but nothing else. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 19:07, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete. There's also an AllMusic review ([24]) and a very short Goldmine (magazine) review ([25]), but that's not enough to establish notability. toweli (talk) 19:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep due to more sources being presented toweli (talk) 17:58, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak delete: The article given in the comment/nom above and this [26] are trivial coverage. I just don't find enough we can use to show notability here. Oaktree b (talk) 19:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep. The band also released All A View in 2021, which gained significant coverage [27] and a review [28] in American Songwriter, a review in Audiophile Review [29] and some other reviews of varying gravitas: [30] [31]. Geschichte (talk) 20:12, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Has anyone seen the sources, and that the band has released one album more than what the article claims? Geschichte (talk) 23:44, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: This passes WP:NBAND to an extent, especially with source provided by Geschichte above. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 17:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:26, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mattin

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I wasn't able to find significant coverage of the subject in reliable sources, and the external links in the article don't help establish notability (as they're either Mattin's website or interviews). Interestingly, the article was created by User:Mattata, whose only mainspace edits involve creating this article. toweli (talk) 17:45, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment: There is some coverage in The Wire, albeit paywalled. From the magazine's index, issue 267 (2006) looks to have the most coverage of the subject. More recently, there was a book review a year ago, in issue 476. AllyD (talk) 12:24, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Neon Hunk

AfDs for this article:

Articles for deletion/Neon Hunk

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I believe this article should be deleted for a few reasons; the first and most major is notability. I do not believe, at least as of this time, this duo is notable enough to have a page on Wikipedia. The article lacks sources, only featuring one that was put in the article in 2015. I've searched for sources to add to the article and can only find one article, a Pitchfork review, on an album they published, rather than the duo themselves. The article uses non-neutral language, such as "other noise/freak weirdos". It also contains a lot of unsourced speculation, stating that part of the duo is working on a full-length album, but this has never been published or confirmed by any source. Most of the wikilinks on the article go to non-existant pages, and no pages for the discography of the duo exist at all. This page has existed for years (since 2004 according to the edit history) and in that time, no verifiable and trustworthy sources have given notable information about the duo. Beachweak (talk) 11:27, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment there's a Pitchfork review ([32]) and an AllMusic review ([33]). toweli (talk) 11:52, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

These reviews are focused on an album created by the duo, Smarmymob, rather than the duo themselves. Beachweak (talk) 13:44, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, I was just noting the existence of two reviews. Leaning delete, unless more sources are found. toweli (talk) 18:37, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

delete no sources to establish notability. --Altenmann >talk 18:07, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep. Also found reviews of Smarmymob in Stylus Magazine [34], Dusted Magazine [35], Suburban Voice [36] and this more trivial output: [37] and this one: [38] @Beachweak of course reviews are of albums. Albums are what musicians make. Do you propose an article is written about the album instead? Geschichte (talk) 20:23, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think if there are enough reviews of the album (which there are proving to be), an article could be written about Smarmymob; however, the article on the duo themselves doesn't seem notable enough to be kept, at least as of right now. It's ten years old and only has one, weak source. Beachweak (talk) 21:48, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you agree that Neon Hunk then should be preserved as a redirect to Smarmybob, failing a keep outcome here? Geschichte (talk) 11:53, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not a bad idea to turn the page into a redirect rather than deleting it entirely; somebody would have to write the article on the album, though. Maybe delete the page until an article is published and then turn it into a redirect? Beachweak (talk) 12:12, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note that under WP:A9, if the band/musician is non-notable and has no article, then an article for their album needs solid evidence that it has significance. I'm not sure if the few scattered reviews for Smarmybob will suffice. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 13:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How many would it need? As far as getting reviews go, it doesn't get much more significant than Pitchfork, and I think the other ones look very promising in sum. I'm somewhat struggling to take the proposition seriously that an album with Pitchfork, Allmusic and other reviews would be regarded as a speedy candidate. Geschichte (talk) 20:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In my view, WP:A9 is there for a reason. An album article is not particularly encyclopedic when an interested reader cannot learn more about the band because they're not notable enough for their own article. That's my take on this side discussion about the album, and otherwise I am undecided about deleting or keeping the band and will have to leave it at that. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 14:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The issue isn't about the album; my proposition is to delete the page ABOUT the duo. In the future, there could be an article written about the album, but the duo Neon Hunk, at least right now, are not very notable source wise. If you review the article right now, there is one source that isn't very descriptive (and currently leads to a 404). Apart from that, the entire article is unsourced. I still think it should be deleted unless more sources about the duo are found. Beachweak (talk) 20:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was replying to Doomsdayer Geschichte (talk) 12:25, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Gerónimo Lluberas

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There is insufficient information to support the subject of this article's notability. Even before I began culling this page of non-WP:RS sources, this article had no citations supporting much of the personal life and religious sections. As such, this subject does not meet the guidelines of sufficient coverage and verifiability. — Your local Sink Cat (The Sink). 22:14, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Maxine Waters Willard

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This article does fail WP:GNG and WP:NSINGER. Couldn’t find as much reliable coverage as possible. Only in online books that credit her and her sister Julia as background vocalists on an album. Discogs has all the credits, but still not best suited for the article. There are no record chart records of her either. TheGreatestLuvofAll (talk) 22:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment: I've found a few sources about Maxine and/or her musical group The Waters. Another option would be deleting all the individual pages for the members of the group and making a single page for The Waters.

^[1] ^[2] ^[3]^[4] ^[5] ^[6] ^[7] ^[8] ^[9] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rainsage (talk • contribs) 05:08, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I see a WP:GNG pass based on WP:SIGCOV in the Washington Post piece raised above and the documentary 20 Feet from Stardom. However, I agree with Rainsage that it might be better to create a single page for the Waters. That's a decision that can be made editorially, though, since the sources support a "keep" here. Dclemens1971 (talk) 18:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

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Julia Waters Tillman

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This article does fail WP:GNG and WP:NSINGER. Couldn’t find as much reliable coverage as possible. Only in online books that credit her and her sister Maxine as background vocalists on an album. Discogs has all the credits, but still not best suited for the article. There are no record chart records of her either. TheGreatestLuvofAll (talk) 22:25, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2024 November 5. —^{cyberbot I}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 08:10, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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FNTSY (MJ Mytton-Sanneh)

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Fails WP:NMUSICIAN 🇺🇦 Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 🇺🇦 22:56, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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MJ Mytton-Sanneh was part of UK boy band New Bounce that placed third in Britain's Got Talent (series 5). Britain's Got Talent averaged 10.9 million viewers per episode on live TV; many lower-placing acts have Wikipedia pages, with Britain's Got Talent being their only source of notability. MJ Mytton-Sanneh has also been part of West End musicals such as Thriller Live (which toured the world) and has also featured on The X Factor. He absolutely is notable enough to have a Wikipedia page. I acknowledge that in recent years there is not as much notability—but any form of notability is worth a Wikipedia page, as it’s meant to be timeless.

After creating this article, I will also create the article for New Bounce, as they are missing a Wikipedia page SRR111 (talk) 23:39, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: GNG and MUSICIAN is failed here. Most of the (reliable) sources appear trivial or to fall under WP:1E. Also a plethora of... interesting sources, which isn't a deciding factor, but definitely doesn't help. Signed, Guessitsavis (she/they) ^Talk 00:47, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:1E - I would disagree with this. Thriller Live is an event, as is Britain's Got Talent (series 5), another event, and being part of Speechless (Michael Jackson song). He also was part of X Factor, which I haven't included yet, and in recent years was named BBC Music Introducing Artist of the Month. Certainly not one event, and this is a brief overview.

As I have previously mentioned, other lower-placing acts that I think actually do fall under WP:1E have Wiki articles, and yet there is no call for deletion—so why is this?

Additionally, using terms like "a plethora of… interesting sources" when describing my sources quite clearly reads as sarcasm and has no place on Wiki.

I get the feeling my page has come under scrutiny simply because it’s the first article I have written. Please try to assist me rather than allowing personal opinion to shape the viability of this article. Quite simply, he is notable and has been part of many high-profile 'events.' SRR111 (talk) 19:21, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Fails WP:NSINGER. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:NSINGER "9. Has won first, second, or third place in a major music competition." - he came third, as a member of New Bounce in Britain's Got Talent (series 5). Therefore meets the conditions. Britain's Got Talent (series 5) averaged 10.9 million viewers per episode on live TV and is a major British competition.

Also meets the condition of section 4 & 12. SRR111 (talk) 19:32, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

== References ==
The following references support notability under WP:NSINGER section 9:
- "Britain's Got Talent: MJ speaks to the ES". Express & Star. 2011-06-03. Retrieved 2023-11-09.
- "Britain's Got Talent: Jai McDowall beats Ronan Parke". BBC News. 2011-06-05. Retrieved 2023-11-09.
SRR111 (talk) 20:01, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe one of the issues here is the way sources are being searched. When using the "find sources" tool on Wiki, the combined search term "FNTSY" with "MJ Mytton-Sanneh" in quotes doesn't yield any results, but this is due to the specificity of the search term rather than a lack of sources. Searching each term separately – "FNTSY" and "MJ Mytton-Sanneh" – brings up significantly more information across reputable sources.

Given that "FNTSY" is his current artist name, while "MJ Mytton-Sanneh" is his known name in previous work and public appearances, perhaps renaming the page to "MJ Mytton-Sanneh" could be a more straightforward solution. However, to clarify, both names are relevant and notable, as he has built a reputation across different phases of his career.

In light of this, I encourage deeper research with variations on his name and aliases before concluding on the page's viability. It may reveal more comprehensive sources and ultimately strengthen the article's standing. SRR111 (talk) 19:45, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. There is an unbolded Keep argument that is being presented so I think a little more discussion time would be useful and an evaluation of newly found sources as well.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:49, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete "Currently, FNTSY does not have music available on streaming platforms" I mean, you're breathing in water right there, aren't you, if you're expecting to pass WP:NSINGER or WP:NMUSICIAN? As he fails WP:GNG, and the argument of WP:1E is compelling, I reckon we're done here. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 14:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ilan Lukatch

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BLP of a journalist that seems to me to lack support from in depth coverage in independent sources. Appears borderline so bringing here for consensus. Mccapra (talk) 19:45, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep. There are 10 independent sources in the Hebrew article, which, together, seem sufficient to establish notability. Whizkin (talk) 11:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes but the ten sources in Hebrew are absolutely dire:

1. Is a piece by him, not independent coverage of him

2. Is a passing mention of him in a band he played in in 1988

3. Doesn’t mention him

4. Passing mention in a brief listing

5. Passing mention

6. Doesn’t mention him

7. Doesn’t mention him

8. Interview with him (his first interview ever)

9. Decent, if rather brief, third party source

10. No longer accessible but looks decent.

That’s not enough to build a stand alone bio article on and it does look like the original creator of the Hebrew article was desperately scraping around for any mention they could find. Mccapra (talk) 13:29, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that those sources are sub-optimal. Whizkin (talk) 18:21, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. OR biography of a professional at work. The Hebrew article is refbombed. Our article is shorter, so there are less references, yet what we have is equally a mixed bag. gidonb (talk) 03:39, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Roman Miroshnichenko

AfDs for this article:

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Wikipedia is not a vanity publisher or a PR platform. Refbombed spam for non notable individual. Has a massive primary sourced laundry list of so called awards but they are not major awards (or for the most part remotely credible). Last Afd closed no consensus largely on the validity of the Independent Music Awards (IMAs) (now deleted) but they are not a major award and are not even a notable award. None of the many listed charts are GOODCHARTS. Refbombed sources lack independent coverage in reliable sources. Curated by a single SPA who despite being blocked is still updating this PR. duffbeerforme (talk) 14:17, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment: Does the International Songwriting Competition confer notability? The article for the award has a few citations to RS calling it "prestigious", mostly the Irish newspaper article... Not sure about notability otherwise. Oaktree b (talk) 14:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

lol 'prestigious' is a word that barely exists outside press releases - if you see it in a news item it's a giveaway that the piece is probably churnalism. Things which are genuinely prestigious (Nobel, Emmy etc.) are never described as 'prestigious'. Mccapra (talk) 16:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ASCAP is an Irish newspaper? Good to know! ascap.com/help/music-business-101/songwriting-competitions DiscursivePraxis (talk) 20:46, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: winning non-notable awards doesn't help notability here. Other than the 2024 "win", this is still the same quality of biography we saw during the last round at AfD. I've read up a bit more on these "awards", they don't seem terribly important. Nor do most of the charted albums/songs hit on charts that we recognize. Oaktree b (talk) 19:13, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. An article about Roman Miroshnichenko is included in The Great Jazz Guitarists encyclopedia, edited by Scott Yanow. --Yakudza (talk) 17:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Very weak keep In duo with Grammy-nominated guitarist Mike Stern, Roman Miroshnichenko has won the Best Jazz Award of the USA Songwriting Contest: serious world-class achievement mentioned in the top news of All About Jazz - the largest jazz portal in the world. Also, he is a Guinness Records holder, which is more than a notable award. Along with John Williams, Allan Silvestry, and Hans Zimmer, he was the nominee for the Hollywood Music in Media Awards. Not a big deal, too? He has recorded with the London Symphony at Abbey Road studio, just think for a moment. He is also a Recording Academy/Grammy Voting Member, where only outstanding musicians and experts are allowed. He is the winner of the Film Music Contest, the largest competition in media music in Europe. These are just undeniable facts that can make less fortunate colleagues nervous. All facts are in the public domain.

DiscursivePraxis (talk) 20:30, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. The previous AFD did close a No Consensus which might be the case here, too.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:37, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep I do agree that the article is very obnoxious and and been refbombed to hell(98 references!?). It could probably use some work to move towards a more neutral view, to read the article would make you think this guy is one of the best musicians in the world. But I do believe he barely passes GNG. Winning the international songwriting competition and the article in The great Jazz guitarists certainly help, although are not too well known. The fact that he has won so many awards speaks to his notability even though most are quite unknown. GoldMiner24 ^Talk 02:00, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Winning so many awards speaks more to his entering so many contests and to his skills. Ability does not make one notable unless it receives independent coverage. duffbeerforme (talk) 00:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- ~~Keep~~ He has truly made his mark on the music world. Teaming up with Grammy-nominated guitarist Mike Stern, he recntly won the Best Jazz Award at the USA Songwriting Contest, a big honor that even made headlines on All About Jazz, the world's largest jazz portal. His list of achievements keeps growing: he's a Guinness World Record holder, a Grammy Voting Member, and has even been nomnated for the Hollywood Music in Media Awards alongside John Williams, Alan Silvestri, and Hans Zimmer. He's also recorded with the London Symphony Orchestra at the iconic Abbey Road Studios and took home the top prize in Europe's biggest media music competition - the Film Music Contest. It's safe to say that Miroshnichenko's accomplishments speak for themselves.
DiscursivePraxis (talk) 10:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC) (striking duplicate vote Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC))[reply]
Not only is voting twice not allowed, editors are not allowed to use block evading socks to vote. duffbeerforme (talk) 00:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I am not finding 2-3 independent and substantial sources. First, the IMAs web site is no longer in existence, so we can scratch that as a major award. The Global Music Awards are a Pay-Fer award in which everybody seems to win at least bronze, and it runs 4x a year. The HMMA are also pay-fer, and likely self-nomination. The Jazz Corner is a crowd-sourced fan site. Songwriting Competition is another pay-fer. AllAboutJazz site (cited multiple times but not named in citation) allows artists to pay to advertise or have articles about them, for $$. Basically, this guy enters every inexpensive contest, uses all of the available promotion sites. Bravo! as a self-promoter. Lamona (talk) 20:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Grasmmy Awards 92.243.182.120 (talk) 14:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Among the winners and nominees of most of the above awards in article are such world stars as Jason Mraz (USASC), Meghan Trainor (USASC), Al Di Meola (USASC), Ian Anderson (USASC), Gino Vanelli (USASC), Jami Alimorad (USASC), Dave Koz, Paul Wertico, George Benson, Foreigner, Hans Zimmer (HMMA), John Williams (HMMA), Alan Silvestri (HMMA), Carlos Santana (HMMA), Lady Gaga (HMMA). Are they "self-nomintaed" and "pay-fer" too? It is also worth noting that the Grammys also have many self-nominated artists and there is an option to pay for entry from 45 to 150 USD depending on the proximity of the deadline. Most of the above awards are listed on ASCAP's list of the most notable and influential music competitions and awards: ascap.com/help/music-business-101/songwriting-competitions

Not to mention the Guinness World Record, the encyclopedia "Great Jazz Guitarists" published by the largest book distributor Hal Leonard and the many celebrities with whom this truly outstanding world-class guitarist performed. (Just a note that this comment was made by User:92.243.182.120. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC)}[reply]

The ASCAP page lists "songwriting competitions" which "...provide networking opportunities and inspiration for your work." It says nothing about them being notable, influential, or important. Lamona (talk) 23:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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’’’Keep This artist has more than enough regalia. An article in the encyclopedia "Great Jazz Guitarists" and a Guinness record holder are enough. Not to mention sharing the podium with celebrities as a nominee and winner of significant international music competitions and awards: HMMA, USASC, ISC.

Confirmed on iMDB: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm12855543/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_1 92.243.182.120 (talk) 17:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First, nothing can be confirmed on IMDB - it is not a reliable source. Second, Guinness appears to have given an award for the most guitarists, of which he was one of over 7,000. I do not have the GBR for 2014, but I seriously doubt if he was singled out for mention. The entry in Great Jazz Guitarists shows up in 2 snippets, while (for comparison) Django Reinhardt has 56 snippets. He shared no podium with celebrities, but even if he had notability is not established by who you stand next to. I will also state that while potentially satisfying for the musician, nominations for awards are not generally considered notable. The "Silver" award for the Global Music Awards for 2022 and 2023 have more than 100 silver winners. It isn't clear if there was anyone who applied for this that did not get an award. I still don't see anything that would meet GNG. Lamona (talk) 20:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. Global Music Awards Gold Medal. Just 9 Winners of hundreds: https://www.globalmusicawards.com/honorees/november-2022

2. HMMA Nominee among celebrities: https://www.allaboutjazz.com/news/roman-miroshnichenko-henrik-andersen-and-trilok-gurtu-nominated-in-the-hollywood-music-in-media-awards/

3. The Great Jazz Guitarists Encyclopedia, edited by one of jazz's most influential historians Scott Yannow, is not pulp fiction. Hal Leonard doesn't do that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Yanow

p.s. It is probably necessary to be less superficial and biased. 92.243.182.120 (talk) 21:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hinapia

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Fails WP:BAND, did not have significant coverage, and any coverage in reliable sources seems to be just regurgitations of press releases from their agency. Released one song that did not chart on any qualifying WP:CHART, then disbanded. RachelTensions (talk) 07:16, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment: a related article for one of the singers, Eunwoo, has been proposed for deletion. --A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 01:03, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as they did chart on a recognised billboard chart, the World Digital Song Sales chart at a peak of 18. They also have reliable sources coverage such as Naver already in the article, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 00:11, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The criteria for charts at WP:MUSIC is: "Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart." World Digital Song Sales isn't a national music chart and isn't listed as an acceptable chart at WP:BILLBOARDCHARTS.
As far as the Naver articles you mentioned, of the three in the article, this and this are just regurgitations of the press releases from their agency and don't meet the definition of "non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician or ensemble itself" as described in WP:BAND. RachelTensions (talk) 00:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BILLBOARDCHARTS states "Genre-specific digital song sales and streaming songs charts should not be included unless a song did not chart on the respective all-genre Digital Song Sales or Streaming Songs charts and the genre's "hot" chart." so in these circumstances it is an acceptable chart. The better Naver ref is here, and there is significant coverage in this Billboard article here, more coverage here, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 22:08, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Benison (talk) 09:39, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete based on the argument that the World Digital Song Sales chart is not a qualifying chart per WP:BILLBOARDCHARTS. It's a single digital release from a band with no SIGCOV and an arguably ONEEVENT lifetime! Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 10:09, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jayson Sherlock

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Run of the mill everyday person that has played in a handful of bands with no particular suitable redirect target. Fails WP:GNG and WP:ANYBIO. Graywalls (talk) 05:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC) The person doesn't pass the threshold for having their own article and despite having considered acceptable red ir or mrge target, there's not quite a right one. Graywalls (talk) 16:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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As the nominator, I'm open to redirect to Mortification (band) if there isn't a consensus to straight up delete, but I request it be DELETE and redirect so it doesn't get re-spawned into an article of its own single handedly by an editor down the road. Graywalls (talk) 14:42, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - agree with nom. Current sourcing is stuff that can't be used for notability, like band's own page, facebook, youtube. Cannot tell if this guy passes any of the WP:NMUSICIAN checks either such as charting. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment I'm going to try and find sources for this guy. He was in one of the best-selling heavy metal bands in Australia, at the peak of their popularity, so there's probably stuff out there.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 16:34, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whelp. There's lots of stuff about the bands he's in/been in, but little about him. I suspect there's probably print mentions in magazines or newspapers, but that's going to be difficult to dig through.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 17:22, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unless something establishes him notable for himself, I say he's not notable. This works the other way as well. An organization may be notable, but individual members (or groups of members) do not "inherit" notability due to their membership. from WP:INHERITORG Graywalls (talk) 18:49, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Right. That's why I'm not counting that coverage of the bands he's been in, because that would be more appropriate for the requisite articles. I do see that an HM interview is referenced, but not cited, in the article. I'll try and see if I can access that. If it's an interview of "him", that would help towards individual notability.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 19:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

~~(Provisional) Keep vote~~, because there's an HM interview with/profile of him in existence. It needs to be accessed and cited, but accessibility doesn't determine notability, the coverage need only *exist*.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:01, 25 October 2024 (UTC) Ah, it's accessible online: here it is--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@3family6:, found it. here I think interview with the subject can be used to verify information about the subject but obviously, words from the subject is not independent, so I question its value for conferring notability, which requires secondary source. Graywalls (talk) 20:38, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

that he's covered in an interview by an independent reliable source would confer notability, but it's just one source.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 15:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, I can't seem to find anything else. HM mentioned back in 2008 that he doesn't do media appearances, so that one source might be all that there is.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 20:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Subject does not have significant coverage in independent sources hence fail WP:GNG and WP:Notability for musician (I can't find any traces of a major award)Tesleemah (talk) 13:14, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. WP:MUSICBIO#6. Prominent member of Mortification, Paramaecium and Horde (only member). The later is an obvious merge target if people want to ignore the notability guidelines which seems to be the norm these days. duffbeerforme (talk) 14:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:BANDMEMBER, he needs coverage about him specifically in order to be notable.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 12:14, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Or you can actually read what BANDMEMBER says and not tell us porkies. duffbeerforme (talk) 00:08, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Members of notable bands are redirected to the band's article, not given individual articles, unless they have demonstrated individual notability. Every band Sherlock has been in is definitely notable, no question. But, and I was surprised at this, so far it appears there's one source, mentioned above, that is about him specifically rather than a band he's part of. Horde was a one-man-band in studio, true, but that's technically separate and any info about that would be duplicated between the band article and this article.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 11:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So totally different to how you characterized it above. So let's look at what it actually says, "unless they have demonstrated individual notability" such as by being "a musician who has been a reasonably prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles." which directly satisfies the relevant SNG. duffbeerforme (talk) 00:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's circular. You're saying that they're independently notable because of the bands that they're in and thus should have their own article, and so, because they should have their own article, they're notable apart from those bands.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 22:32, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Mortification (band). He was in multiple bands, but the article on Mortification is the only one with any meaningful information on him and it seems to be his most prominent role, with a lot of the sources that discuss him mentioning that as his most notable aspect. PARAKANYAA (talk) 00:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:03, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I oppose that redirect. There are pages of search results with RS coverage about his work in Horde. Horde also was comprised solely of Sherlock for the studio recording. There is plenty of information about him that could go into that article if it was developed more. Plus, there's also a lot of coverage of Revulsed. And that's not to mention his work in Paramaecium (~~which he was a member of longer than Mortification~~) and Deliverance. There's too many significant bands that could be the target of a redirect. If one was to be prioritized, Horde would be the most reasonable, imo, because it was a solo project.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 12:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How about del for now, but just create redirect later or discuss it in one one of the target page? It's not like it takes more than a few secs to make a redirect. Graywalls (talk) 15:26, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 18:11, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But why delete. We have a verified passing of a notability guide, and if you choose to pretend that doesn't count we have a good alternative to deletion and no one has raised any pressing BLP issues there is no actual justification for deletion. duffbeerforme (talk) 00:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We don't have a verified passing of notability. SNG doesn't over-ride GNG expect for some VERY special cases such as with academic textbooks. 3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 21:45, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Mortification (band). This is an extremely common outcome as an alternative to deleting where, as in this case, the person’s sources are terrible, but they did tour internationally in a band. His solo band projects might also have the same fate. Bearian (talk) 09:03, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why would his solo project be redirected? I can get pages of results discussing Horde, including in multiple books. And that's the only solo project of his. I'd argue that it's equally a possible redirect target as Mortification.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 12:52, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To my surprise, there's only a singular source, and at that an interview, about Sherlock himself. Plenty of coverage for his bands, including Horde. To my regret, then, I'm going to go with delete here.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 12:54, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Still not seeing a consensus yet.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Mortification (band) as an ATD. As per the discussion above, this is really not very easy. Horde_(band) would be an alternative target for redirection and I'd argue a better one except for the current votes for Mortification, which at least ensures a solid result from this very fluid AfD more likely! Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 07:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given this discussion about NBAND, I suggest that a decision be pending the result of that discussion.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 13:23, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's more of a longer term target. Graywalls (talk) 14:39, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This AFD is not about a band. The discussion is about an individual. Geschichte (talk) 09:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The SNG is for both bands and members of bands.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 13:01, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Mortification. Per nom, the subject fails WP:GNG. Although he has been a member of notable bands, WP:INHERENTWEB comes into play. I think this is the best alternative to deleting the article altogether.--DesiMoore (talk) 15:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Attractions

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

No evidence of notability separate from Elvis Costello. Most information of importance already covered in Costello's page DeputyBeagle (talk) 15:23, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and United Kingdom. DeputyBeagle (talk) 15:23, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:21, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Elvis Costello. The key thing here is the album they released on their own, which despite the nominator's statement, isn't even mentioned in the Costello article. --Michig (talk) 21:09, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not an album of any particular note. I'm not opposed to a merge but I don't think the Attractions doing an album without Costello is noteworthy for his page DeputyBeagle (talk) 22:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Elvis Costello. Note that not all of the article has to be merged, and most of the text in this article is merely a wordier version of history already discussed at Costello's article. A few band-specific events can be squeezed in over there. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 13:37, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did contribute some a bit to the article a few years ago, including adding the NF image and some sources. The only basis I'd argue the inclusion of notability would be the fact that the Attractions have been called one of the best backing bands in music history, but as the others have said, about 90% of their career is tied to EC. With that being said I think it would be fine to merge. – zmbro _{(talk) (cont)} 14:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep . This band were the backing group to a leading New Wave singer, which surely makes them notable. YTKJ (talk) 10:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'm not sure if I understand the logic there. Nobody's denying Costello is notable, but they haven't done enough notable on their own to justify their own article. They need to have independent notability.

In the same way as how WP:BANDMEMBER doesn't give every member of a notable band its own, a backing band needs to be able to stand on their WP:BAND criteria seperately from Costello if they have their own article DeputyBeagle (talk) 08:49, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The E Street Band has a separate article even tho never being credited as such on any albums nor having released any album on their own. Attractions members sustained careers as session musicians, as did E Street Band members, and live backing musicians, which E Street Band members did to a lesser extent. 2600:E001:1AD:6400:79E4:6995:B836:A675 (talk) 21:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The E Street band have been inducted into the rock and roll hall of fame, and have lots of coverage and articles specifically about them.

The Attractions just don't have that level of notability in the same way DeputyBeagle (talk) 10:15, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I take your point, User: DeputyBeagle. Having looked at WP: BANDMEMBER and read the first item on the list of notability criteria under WP:BAND, I can say that I would not be opposed to a merge with or redirect to Elvis Costello. Just so long as the outcome of this discussion is not deletion - the band were too closely linked with Costello for that. YTKJ (talk) 22:33, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Sources show this is clearly notable!!! -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 14:41, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:17, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

D- Aside:@Liz, hello, if the undue bold mentioned in a recent message concerned this page, I am afraid it was not my deed but an unvolontary consequence of an edit by@YTKJ (fixed) -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 20:44, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Notable, and also a very reasonable way of organizing content surrounding Costello. yes, there are other ways it could be done, but this way makes sense.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 13:43, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: as per Milowent. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:46, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Owen× ☎ 21:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: This band's music separate from Costello may not be notable, but they can still demonstrate notability through the GNG. They have been called one of the best backing bands in rock history, backed up by three citations, alongside other sources like this, clearly show that the GNG has been met. Toadspike [Talk] 09:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All of their significant coverage is about their relationship with Costello. We can add a section to Costello's page related to the band where there are points worthy of inclusion.

There's no point relying on WP:GNG when we have subject-specific guidelines in WP:BAND that show more specifically what the requirements are for a band to have their own article. They'd have to demonstrate that notability separate from their work with Costello DeputyBeagle (talk) 09:37, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@DeputyBeagle I’m not strongly opposed to a merge, but there is never “no point relying on the GNG”. SNGs are an alternative route to demonstrating notability, alongside the GNG. You’ll notice that WP:BAND #1 is the GNG. And the band only has to meet one of these criteria, not all of them.

The question now is one of WP:PAGEDECIDE, whether we should keep or merge. I do not see anything at WP:BAND that helps us make that decision, so based on my own judgement I believe that there is more than enough sourced content for a standalone article. Merging would add more clutter to the already long article on Elvis Costello. But reasonable folk may disagree, and to me it’s no big deal either way.

Next time, when you’re not actually gunning for the deletion of an article, but simply want a merge, you should start a merge discussion (WP:MERGE) or BOLDly do it yourself rather than come to AfD. You might get less participation that way, but folks will spend much less time arguing about the GNG and NBAND (since deletion isn’t on the table), and much more time discussing which way of organizing the content is best for readers. You might even get no participation, in which case you can just do it! Toadspike [Talk] 08:51, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't want a merge, I wanted a delete but I've accepted that a merge is more popular than a delete here, and I've no problem with a merge.

The GNG always applies yes, but the SNG gives more specific advice pertinent to this situation.

The short and the long of it is that there is no sigcov about the Attractions as a seperate body from Costello. There's only one article in the references that's specifically about the Attractions as opposed to being an article about Costello that references the Attractions. Even then it's about their work with Costello with no reference at all to Mad About the Wrong Boy, their only independent work. DeputyBeagle (talk) 09:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist. It is not important whether or not participants consider this subject notable or not. It depends on whether or not reliable sources can help establish notability. But I see only a little discussion here of the quality of the sourcing. Can we get a source analysis to see if there is enough SIGCOV to warrant a separate article?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 00:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Kaoli Isshiki

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Fails WP:SIGCOV. No significant coverage in any of the sources. Two of the three cited sources don't even mention the subject, and the one source that does simply lists her as one of several singers in a chamber choir (she is one of four singers in the soprano section). 4meter4 (talk) 01:59, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and Women. 4meter4 (talk) 01:59, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Japan and France. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 06:31, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I looked as promised, don't know yet. Solo appearance at the BBC Proms is at least something. I added some external links to check out. Her repertoire seems off the beaten track, plenty contemporary, and we might want to support that. I found the ref from which most of the article was taken and reworded. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:53, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
adding: the French article has 24 references. I guess that some are those I also found (now in external links). Will look closer tomorrow, but someone knowing French might be more more successful. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:21, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: I haven't looked at those yet, but the English article is now referenced. For me, she is notable enough, having made interesting recordings, with notable ensembles and conductors, and only favourable reviews. She is not a diva-type soprano: that should not be a reason to delete. The article serves many links to music that is not normally in focus, both Baroque as contemporary. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the French sources, I need help to not misread the French:
1. [39] This Le Monde article says that she won a prize.
2. [40] This is a more detailed review of her singing (not just "outstanding").
3. [41] recital
4. [42] recording --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:32, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gerda Arendt I don't think this in-depth enough to meet WP:SIGCOV. The last source is selling her CD and is not independent or significant coverage. The prod-s.com website also lacks independence. The Le Monde article spends half a sentence on her, and is a smaller not all that notable prize. The main prize went to another performer, Richard Rittelman, who deservedly is the focus of that article. Only the anaclase.com source approaches significant coverage (and honestly it isn't long enough to be considered in-depth as it devotes less than a paragraph of the article to her performance). Laurent Cuniot is the main subject of that article not Isshiki. There's not enough here to pass WP:NSINGER or WP:GNG or WP:ANYBIO.4meter4 (talk) 21:15, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is Wikipedia only for those who win first prize? - This is a performer of several unusual recordings, and performances in Paris, Brussels, Proms, ... - Aldeburgh could be added. - Deborah Sasson was kept, but achieved less in the music world. She knew how to attract the press, however. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:52, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Gerda Arendt This has nothing to do with the evaluating the worth of prize winners, but evaluating the quality of coverage of Kaoli Isshiki in sources. A half sentence of text is not significant coverage, and if the award were significant we would expect more coverage in independent media or academic publications. We can only build articles based on our notability guidelines which requires that we support articles with extant sources that contain significant coverage. That does mean that what journalists and academics choose to pay attention to directly impacts the types of articles we can create because we can't engage in WP:Original Research. That is both a limitation and a strength of writing on wikipedia. The fact that you have yet to locate any sources directly about Isshiki where she is the primary subject indicates that she isn't notable for wikipedia's purposes. This indicates that a journalist or an academic researcher needs to do some work before we can have an article and it is WP:TOOSOON for wikipedia to write on this person.4meter4 (talk) 22:34, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe that our coverage should depend on one reviewer's or academic's personal attention or lack of that, when her contributions to music are facts. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:45, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Then fundamentally you have missed the point of wikipedia's core policies at WP:No original research, WP:VERIFIABILITY, and WP:SIGCOV. We can't build articles largely verified to primary and non-independent sources. Best.4meter4 (talk) 18:20, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Informations about concerts and recordings are facts, not original research. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:PSTS which states, Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources, and to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. The issue here is that there is not enough secondary coverage of her performances and recordings to establish the notability of those performances and recordings, and to make sure the "facts" are presented in an encyclopedic and neutral manner. Building an article from primarily primary materials and sources closely connected to the subject does not match the policy language at PSTS. At this point we have found zero secondary or tertiary sources with significant coverage. That makes the topic both not notable, and any article built from the current sources in evidence a violation of PSTS policy on the no original research page. Best.4meter4 (talk) 21:15, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Please educate me on my talk, not here. - Edit conflict, response only to the beginning of the comment above.) I didn't write this article, and probably would not have created it. But now it's there. I don't think we need "research" to agree that The Proms are notable, and that singing all of Monteverdi's Vespers (not just solos) is an admirable feat. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:29, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quoting policy language here isn't about educating you Gerda (although if it does that is a bonus). It's relevant policy language to the discussion. Providing textual evidence for an WP:AFD argument is what we are supposed to do at an AFD for the benefit of all participants. I have provided a detailed source analysis below, showing how none of the references constitute independent significant coverage as required by WP:Notability.`4meter4 (talk) 01:11, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:29, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Liz, could you please notify relevant projects, such as Opera and Women (in Music, in Red), - Song is not relevant. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:48, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source	Significant?	Independent?	Reliable?	Secondary?	Pass/Fail	Notes
Le Monde	N	Y	Y	Y	N	Non-notable award that receives only a half sentence of coverage in the article. The article is mainly about another person who won a different award which is notable. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
Anaclase.com review	N	Y	Y	Y	N	Article is primarily a review of Laurent Cuniot and the TM+ ensemble at the Maison de la musique. Isshiki is only mentioned in passing, and the paragraph she is in is primarily not about her performance but about the song cycle by Jonathan Harvey. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
recital at prod-s.com	N	N	Y	N	N	The PROD-S company is the production company which produced the recital concert by Ishki. As they are a production team directly connected to the recital, and promote their events on their website this lacks both independence and significance. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
recording	N	N	Y	N	N	Vendor selling Isshiki's CD. Does nothing but verify a recording exists. It does not provide any information on the recording, and the website also lacks independence as it is selling a product featuring the subject. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
KAOLI ISSHIKI at ruhrtriennale.de	Y	N	Y	N	N	Artist bio at the website of Festival der Kunste which employed the singer. These bios are usually written by the subject or their paid talent management agency. Lacks independence. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
Ensemble William Byrd	N	N	Y	N	N	Isshiki is listed as one of four sopranos in a chamber choir on the website of the choir itself. This is either neither independent or significant coverage. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
KAOLI ISSHIKI at ludusmodalis.com	Y	N	Y	N	N	Artist bio at the website of the Ludus Modalis website which employs the singer. These bios are usually written by the subject or their paid talent management agency. Lacks independence. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
Review at musica-dei-donum.org	Y	Y	N	Y	N	Review from a WP:SELFPUBLISHED non-notable blog. Not a reliable source. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
Philharmonie de Paris	N	N	Y	N	N	Performance archive of the Philharmonie de Paris. Verifies she performed with the orchestra in a primary source, but this is neither significant or independent. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
BBC Proms	N	N	Y	N	N	Performance archive of the BBC proms. Verifies she performed with the BBC proms in a primary source, but this is neither significant or independent. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
Voce.de	N	?	N	N	N	Voce.de is a WP:SELFPUBLISHED personal website of Hans-Josef Kasper. Not reliable. May or may not be independent. No way to tell with a self-published source. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
Brusseks Philharmonic	N	N	Y	N	N	Website of the Brussels Philharmonic. It's the orchestra's performance archive and is both a primary source and lacks independence from the subject as the orchestra employed her. Can be used to verify the performance but is not usable towards proving notability. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
Res Musica review	N	Y	Y	Y	N	This is an independent secondary source, but Isshiki's performance is only given a half sentence of attention. It is not in-depth enough to be considered significant. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
conservatoire-orchestre.caen.fr/	N	N	Y	N	N	This is an advertisement with ticket sale pricing and links for purchasing. It is not a review, not independent, and not significant coverage. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
musicweb-international.com	N	Y	Y	Y	N	This is an independent review of album on which Isshiki performs on a couple songs as a guest artist. However, her performance was not reviewed at all by the reviewer who did not mention her at all in the review. She is only listed as a performer on the couple songs to which she contributed. Without any text reviewing her work, this is not in-depth coverage. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
French Anthologies	N	Y	Y	Y	N	This is an independent review in a reliable secondary source. However, the review of Isshiki's performance is only a half sentence long. It's not in-depth enough to constitute significant coverage. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
www.recordsinternational.com	N	N	Y	N	N	This is the website of a record label selling one its albums. Not independent nor significant. Fails WP:SIGCOV.
Total qualifying sources					0	There must be multiple qualifying sources to meet the notability requirements

I am travelling, and busy with other subjects, sorry for a late reply. Thank you for diligent analysis of sources, 4meter4. My issue is that it sees every item only on its own, not in context.

Of course there are, in general, biographies around that were written by the person in question or by a publicity specialist, but in this case I see the things mentioned there (studies in Europe, award, performances, recordings) also supported by trustworthy other references. I also don't see any items in the biography (which is repeated by other sites) that I'd consider far-fetched or sensational claims.

I see a singer performing in high quality and in teams, be it ensemble or with other soloists. I like that approach. I see her performing the lesser-performed music, both old and new, and would like to showcase that instead of deleting it. As John pointed out (below), there are different ways to establish notability according to Wikipedia:Notability (music). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:49, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found this Amazon listing which has her credited on all but one track. The main artist seems to be Pascal Dusapin. Then I found that her artist page at Amazon has four albums listed, one of which is under her own name. Here is another listing, from the Ensemble Vocal de Pontoise.Wikipedia:Notability (music) says our benchmarks for a standalone article on a musician include "Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable)." Maguelone (her record label) claims to have released work by Reynaldo Hahn and André Jolivet, who are independently notable, and to have been around since 1993. Overall, (and the coverage of her prize in a major French media source counts too) I think that this artist (just) meets WP:NMG, so I think this is a (fairly weak) keep from me. John (talk) 20:59, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I'm giving this discussion another relisting. But right now, I see no support for deletion other than the nominator.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:53, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: The article lacks mention of significant coverage or critical acclaim. There is also no information provided regarding the subject's record sales, chart placements, or awards, despite claims to the contrary. Fails WP:SIGCOV.--— MimsMENTOR ^talk 07:44, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Record sales, chart placements: not relevant for classical music. Recordings are, and recordings are there. Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:03, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The SNG is tied to the notability of the record label. Albums made with an obscure small record label probably aren't notable. It's not like she recorded for a significant classical music label like Decca, Naxos, or Deutsche Gramophone which have international distribution. We don't even have an article on the label she recorded with which is telling. It looks to me like she is only active with a tiny French independent record label that doesn't appear all that notable. 4meter4 (talk) 17:49, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relisting. Comments on the sources provided would be helpful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, voorts (talk/contributions) 02:14, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bands and musicians Templates for deletion

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Comment on the talk pages of the articles, not here.

References

[1] "Bellbirds are in song", Stuff, 2010-10-20, archived from the original on 2017-08-12, retrieved 2024-11-13

[2] ttps://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1998/02/02/the-reliable-source/19f5abdf-0eaf-4b71-8842-b2cafd2af050/

[3] ttps://lbpost.com/hi-lo/my-first-job-singer-maxine-waters-andrews/

[4] ttps://www.popmatters.com/the-waters-2020-interview-2645252287.html

[5] ttps://www.thefader.com/2013/06/14/no-concessions-20-feet-from-stardom-and-the-hidden-world-of-back-up-singers

[6] ttps://cultmtl.com/2013/07/pop-musics-dirty-vocal-secret/

[7] ttps://wamu.org/story/13/06/12/20_feet_from_the_spotlight_theres_singing_worthy_of_one/

[8] ttps://uproxx.com/hitfix/twenty-feet-from-stardom-puts-back-up-singers-in-the-spotlight-review/

[9] ttps://www.pbssocal.org/shows/artbound/carrying-a-note-forward-an-l-a-legacy-of-back-up-singers

[10] ttps://www.popmatters.com/178175-finally-in-the-spotlight-20-feet-from-stardom-2495695496.html

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Bands and musicians

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