User talk:HLHJ

Oceanography maps

As far as I know, the only way to call attention to a color-confusing map is to go to WP:GL or ask someone privately on a user talk page; I've never done anything else. I see nothing at Commons:Category:Image cleanup templates that mentions color. Meanwhile, did you see my note at WP:GL? I'm not sure what image I should be evaluating. Nyttend (talk) 19:18, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Forgot to reply on the template. I'd advise against it, simply because this is the kind of thing that belongs on Commons, not on en:wp. I don't know if there's a requested-templates page over there. Nyttend (talk) 21:43, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

It's Sandister!

Hello. We met at Open Scholarship Weekend. sandiooses^TextMe 18:43, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Citrus diagram

I left a comment on your request for a citrus family tree at the Graphics Lab. I'd be interested to hear your response. NikNaks _{talk - gallery} 15:52, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

External links section

Per the WP:MEDMOS external links typically go after the reference section. Thus moved back some of the changes in this edit [1] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:54, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

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Diptanshu^Talk 10:24, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Citrus cladogram

Hi, where are you getting the information from for the cladogram that you added at a number of pages, including Citrus gracilis? I can't see it at the cited source. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 17:36, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

@Sminthopsis84: Thanks for being so polite! I made the cladogram ages ago, for Australian limes. I don't really recall, but I think the source was the section titled "The citrus types previously known as Microcitrus>History" (which is a better title than Australian limes, sort of...). It's not in a very digestible form. Do you also read it as I did? HLHJ (talk) 20:44, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

And maybe the cladogram doesn't belong in Citrus gracilis or Citrus wintersii, since they aren't in the tree. HLHJ (talk) 21:02, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I see where you got that from. It sounds as if it might be based on morphology only. Actually, I think that cladogram could be out of date because Clymenia (plant) apparently belongs in there somewhere, but I don't have access to this article. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 22:48, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

I think I have a copy of that Garcia-Lor thesis somewhere, I'll have a look. The cladogram is missing several other species, too, so if it's missing clymenia, it's missing it. You could contact the source author, I guess, and ask for an extension of their summary, to cover more species.

Morphology may be the best we can do. I got the impression it was an expert's educated guess on available data, better than which we cannot do. Citrus taxonomy is a mess. I mean, the entire genus interbreeds freely, unless geography or seasons separate them, and so many people (including Garcia-Lor, as I recall) have come up with rather different trees depending on which sections of genome they chose to work with, and which representatives of each genetic area. The genetic cluster analysis at Citrus_taxonomy#Genetic_history starts looking good.

I've tried sorting the pure varieties from the hybrids at, e.g. Mandarin_orange#Varieties, and I recommend the references in there; Next generation haplotyping to decipher nuclear genomic interspecific admixture in Citrusspecies: analysis of chromosome 2 and Sequencing of diverse mandarin, pummelo and orange genomes reveals complex history of admixture during citrus domestication are both open access, although sadly Assessing genetic diversity and population structure in a citrus germplasm collection utilizing simple sequence repeat markers (SSRs) isn't, and it covers far more species. The supplementary info, which is open-source, ends with a four-page-long genetic tree, have fun. The actual paper has more useful info on admixtures.

It's a pity, because there are two groups of people with a strong interest in Citrus taxonomy; Orthodox Jews and people taking medicines that interact with some citrus.

These trees are sort of useless, really. The assumptions about speciation that are implicitly made in the computer algorithm don't hold. Even for simple this-is-a-hybrid-of-that stuff, papers contradict one another because they picked different sequences and even unknowingly picked hybrids as reference species. There simply isn't enough data, with just two full genomes. Nonetheless, given that humans understand complex stuff by chunking, I think cladograms have some use in giving a quick visual this-is-more-like-that-than-THAT. I tried to work with some others to make a diagram of the major hybridizations a while back, can't find the discussions now. HLHJ (talk) 23:06, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, cladistic reconstruction of hybrid networks has been a disaster area for many years, and requires a huge research investment. A couple of rules of thumb that I think would be appropriate are (1) that work on the species that are outside that knot of human-influenced hybrids could be useful (as the Acta Horticulturae article seems to be) and (2) that recent work may well be sorting out problems demonstrated by the older work. Perhaps eventually there'll be a review article that sorts it all out. I'm glad you are working on the wikipedia Citrus articles because they have been very bad indeed. P.S.: I sent you email. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 12:42, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

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Kugal fountain

Googling...

• Kugal fountain 752 hits
• kugel ball 133,000 hits
• ball fountain 114,000 hits
• sphere fountain 45,100 hits
• sphere water fountain 30,000 hits

Me thinks another name is probably in order. Cheers Jim1138 (talk) 09:51, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

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Kite rig article

Thank you for starting a new article on kite rigs, HLHJ. This has possibilities. For the time being, I removed the section on kite rigs from the Sail article, which didn't link to your new article, but to a segment of an article on kites, because I felt that it was out of scope. However, as you develop this article, I highly recommend your coming back to the Talk:Sail page and discuss its potential inclusion in the scope, there. Keep up the good work. I may lend a hand at Kite rig, as well. Cheers, User:HopsonRoad 11:31, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, User:HopsonRoad, for your work on the article I created, if definitely needs it. I wrote the article in response to having to put that link to the cargo segment of the kite applications article, and then I forgot to rewrite the link; apologies. I wrote the section because I found myself asking "Is a kite a square or a fore-and-aft rig?" and answering "No, not really". Kiteboating, which I didn't create, could also use work, if you are interested. HLHJ (talk) 15:06, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

FYI, HLHJ, John Konrad appears not to have ever been a US employee. He is a well-published author, however. See:http://gcaptain.com/about/. Cheers, User:HopsonRoad 00:00, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

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A page you started (Acharagma aguirreanum) has been reviewed!

Thanks for creating Acharagma aguirreanum, HLHJ!

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Coconut sugar and neera

Hello HLHJ. On my talk page, you said: "Quick query about this edit; do you think that the term is incorrect? I got the information from the neera article, which I linked to, assuming that anyone interested would follow it. Thank you for using the term "good-faith" in your revert, it made it sting a bit less. Please, if you think an edit is useful but unsourced, could you source it rather than deleting it? It's so much less emotionally unpleasant for editors, and helps keep us writing. Here is a source which you could insert."

First, coconut sugar and neera are not the same products: "Neera is the sweet, oyster white-coloured sap tapped from the immature inflorescence of coconut" (from your source). Second, you used this reference on the Neera page to support the use of neera for diabetics. That site is not a reliable, expert source. In fact, it is spam. Please review WP:MEDRS for citing statements about nutrition and disease. Third, there's nothing wrong with you inserting a solid WP:SECONDARY source for a statement on the manufacturing of neera; you could have added it when you edit this. Thanks. --Zefr (talk) 01:50, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

I'll answer you here and ping you, Zefr, to avoid copying. You are quite right that coconut sugar and neera are not the same thing. For starters, neera can come from multiple palms, not just coconut. Pasturized neera, which is brown, is still called neera, although apparently pasturized coconut neera is also called coconut nectar. Evaporated coconut neera is coconut sugar, as I understand it; please correct me if this is wrong. I mentioned coconut sugar in the neera article only in order to mention a cultural reason for an interest in coconut neera rather than coconut sugar. I'd noticed "coconut nectar" suddenly popping up in ingredients lists of U.S. food, which was how I came to look it up.

I hadn't thought of what I added as a medref. I should have. That coconut sugar has a low glycemic index and has therefore become a fad seemed a fairly uncontroversial claim, but it seems that it's a bit more complicated than that. There is a popular newspaper article linking to a number of studies here:. In summary, the newspaper article (not the papers linked to in it) seems to say that the inulin may be good for your blood sugar, but the fructose is bad for your liver, and the lower glycemic index is just a consequence of more fructose and less sucrose and glucose, as the index measures glucose only. Obviously a lot of nuanced medical information should be added to the coconut sugar article, especially as the stuff is a fad and the article will see a lot of use. Do you know anyone who might have appropriate expertise?

Thank you for removing the promotional language from the neera article. HLHJ (talk) 03:01, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Zefr, if we are now sure that the sap from which coconut sugar is made is correctly called neera, could you please restore this information to the coconut sugar article and add a reference as per WP:PRESERVE? I'll try to get around to adding something on medical claims to the coconut sugar article; they are common and a likely reason for people to read the article. If you find any good refs please let me know. HLHJ (talk) 04:03, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm not aware of a good secondary source defining that coconut sugar is made from neera. Until we have that, we shouldn't insert unsourced text. I'm also certain you won't find any WP:MEDRS source stating that coconut sugar is healthier than any other sweetener or that it provides health benefits. Where good sources are absent, the general medical policy is to not insert unreferenced or spam referenced content. --Zefr (talk) 04:38, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Zefr, there are good sources saying that neera is the sap of the inflorescences of toddy palms, and that toddy palms include the coconut, and that coconut sugar is made from the sap of the inflorescences of coconut palms. The "The Hindu" article I pointed you to contains this sentence:

Neera is the sweet, oyster white-coloured sap tapped from the immature inflorescence of coconut.

The Globe and Mail article says that

Coconut sugar is made from the sap of flower buds from the coconut palm tree.

Combined with a knowledge of what "inflorescence" means, it seems to me that this adequately sources the uncontroversial statement that coconut sugar is made from neera. It would have been easy for you to fix this, or add a citation needed tag so that I could do so.

It remains an unsourced issue. We appear to have no good secondary source on manufacturing that clearly connects neera to coconut sugar. If a statement is made connecting them without a good source, then that is WP:SYNTH. --Zefr (talk)

First sentence of this article seems reliable to me, so I hope you will agree and add it. If the source does not satisfy you, please WP:FIXTHEPROBLEM and find one that does. Please find citations for any other statements you find are insufficiently sourced, or tag them with "citation needed". HLHJ (talk) 17:37, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

What do you think, Zefr? Sorry, forgot to ping. HLHJ (talk) 21:50, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Zefr? HLHJ (talk) 04:13, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't think we should use that source. The article is so poorly written that one might conclude it was never reviewed by an editor who speaks English. A quality editor and journal staff would not have allowed that article to be published. The journal has a low impact factor, 1.4, that is below the threshold for a WP reliable source. It's not a good source to provide to the public as evidence. Is it really important that the article says "coconut sugar is made from neera"? The current article description about sap being boiled into the toddy seems fine with me, although I'd like to see a better manufacturing source. --Zefr (talk) 04:50, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Hello,Zefr. I agree that the article isn't brilliant, although a lot of the research literature is written by non-native English speakers. On the other hand it's clearly a source close to the industry, and I don't think it's likely to be wrong on this particular factoid, especially as it is corroborated by multiple other such sources. I am more certain that neera is made into coconut sugar than I am of many of the other uncited facts in the article. But try this article. It gives a source for the term toddy, too.

Alright, I think that ref is adequate, so have added it here. --Zefr (talk) 16:52, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I think it is important that Wikipedia not wall off knowledge from non-Western cultures, and that means translating terms, even when it's hard to find a source or it harms price discrimination. "Neera" is a term used in Indian English, which is a really common world dialect. HLHJ (talk) 05:02, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

I am not interested in stating that coconut sugar is healthier than any other sweetener or that it provides health benefits, because I do not believe that there is evidence that this is true. I was thinking something more like this, but with better medrefs:

While assorted health claims have been made for coconut sugar, clinical evidence is lacking. There is evidence that specific components of coconut sugar are harmful in excess.

This Huff Post article is a poorly-written, uneducated blog by a non-expert. It does not meet the standards of WP:RS and shouldn't be used, WP:NOTBLOG. --Zefr (talk)

As I implied, I know that this is an inadequate source. Can you find a better one? Sadly, people rarely write medical reviews of lack of evidence. I've posted to Project Medicine about this problem. HLHJ (talk) 17:37, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

"Sadly, people rarely write medical reviews of lack of evidence.": good science is written on a foundation of established facts or near-facts. If there's an absence of evidence, then it's unlikely a review would be written. I saw your post on WT:MED and feel it's reasonable for WP editors to say "As of January 2017, no good clinical evidence for this claim has been published". This is equal to saying, "as of 2017, there is no evidence of life on Mars." Where one can find "evidence of absence" for medical literature and commercial products is in FDA warning letters which point out the absence of evidence for health benefits. For example, if you Google "FDA warning letter coconut", you'll see numerous examples where companies with coconut products have violated FDA law for marketing of dietary supplements. This is good reading and instruction on what should be common sense in food, supplement and drug products, but many companies ignore this. --Zefr (talk) 18:45, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

That's a great idea with warning letters; ones from other regulators, like the EU, would also be useful sources. I did find a FDA warning letter on coconut water, and a specific one on diabetes claims for coconut oil, but nothing on coconut sugar. Can you find such a source?

I've also heard it said that science is clearly defining areas of doubt and uncertainty, which is probably why scientific papers often discuss what isn't known. HLHJ (talk) 21:50, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

I never wished to "support the use of neera for diabetics". I wished to add information on why it is a fad for diabetics (no good reason, in my assessment, but if that statement[/assesment] can be supported with medrefs it belongs in the article).

There is no good WP:MEDRS source that neera is used for diabetics. This is just noise among a limited segment of consumers, and we should not be spreading news on fads. No information in the article is evidence to encyclopedia users that that topic carries no weight, WP:UNDUE. --Zefr (talk)

I would be delighted if the absence of information on a topic in Wikipedia could be taken to imply that no such information existed, but I fear this is not yet the case. Enough sources have written about the coconut-sugar health fad to establish notability. Wikipedia has a list of conspiracy theories, including ones such as "the world is controlled by blood-drinking, shape-shifting alien reptiles", and articles about topics such as homeopathy, so I think providing information about notable false health claims is in-scope for the encyclopedia. We just need to find decent medical sources. Can you suggest any? HLHJ (talk) 17:37, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

I've looked and found no WP:RS sources useable to state that purported health effects of coconut sugar have been scientifically evaluated. WP:SPAM sources like Dr. Oz or Mercola have to be kept off of WP. Further, sources you introduced, like this and this, have no place in a trusted encyclopedia because there is probability they will be misinterpreted as fact by non-scientific users. You said: "Enough sources have written about the coconut-sugar health fad to establish notability." I would say that the topic is not notable scientifically, but has been reported as a consumer trend, such as here. I think the best evidence that coconut sugar is a health hoax is the absence of evidence in reliable sources, meaning there's nothing to say about it other than "Although coconut sugar has increased consumer use as of 2017,<ref> there is no evidence it provides any nutritional or health benefits." --Zefr (talk) 16:28, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

That sentence sounds good, Zefr, do please find such a ref and add it. Please add something on neera, too. HLHJ (talk) 20:38, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

I also never said that coconut sugar and neera are the same products. I said that the sap made into coconut sugar is neera.

I'm afraid that this discussion has made me feel offended. If you could take care in your representation of my statements, and assume that I have an interest in the truth, I would be grateful and much happier with this interaction. HLHJ (talk) 14:17, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

I provided responses above to your points. There's no need to assume bad faith in discussing these topics. Our goal should be stating facts objectively supported by strong sources, which unfortunately are mainly absent from the articles on neera and coconut sugar. --Zefr (talk) 14:37, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

I do not assume that you are in bad faith. I assume that you offended me unintentionally, and we'd both prefer to discuss the content without causing or failing to assuage needless offense. HLHJ (talk) 17:37, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

References

Benty Grange helmet photograph

Hey HLHJ, thanks again for stepping in and cleaning up that photograph of the Benty Grange helmet. I've been trying to clean up the various Anglo-Saxon/Scandinavian helmet photos for a while; that one, with such a messy background, was at the top of the list, but between Photoshop Elements 5 and a general lack of skill, I had no chance. Looks infinitely better now. --Usernameunique (talk) 07:41, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

You're welcome, Usernameunique. It sort of sucked me in. I'm glad it worked out (and I followed it enough to poke the person who put it in Template:Did_you_know/Preparation_area_6 because they used the image with the white background, though I don't think it's that critical).

If you are wanting to do this sort of thing, I recommend the GIMP. I haven't used Photoshop much, but I like the GIMP better. It's copyleft software, so free, and maintained by people who use it all the time, which is good and bad. It has an insanely steep learning curve. If I am trying to learn how to do something, I follow a tutorial, otherwise I just get frustrated. But once you know how to do something, it's fast and easy. If you leave the Layers, Tools and Colours dialogues open, it also helps, since you can see if you have the wrong thing selected. For this sort of job, you need either the "Foreground select" tool or the "Intelligent scissors" tool. There are scads of good tutorials on how to use both online, and if that's all you want to learn to do, it will probably only take you a quarter-hour or so. HLHJ (talk) 04:38, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

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DYK nomination of Further research is needed

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October 2017

Welcome to Wikipedia. We welcome and appreciate your contributions, including your edits to Scientific Method, but we cannot accept original research. Original research refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and personal experiences—for which no reliable, published sources exist; it also encompasses combining published sources in a way to imply something that none of them explicitly say. Please be prepared to cite a reliable source for all of your contributions. Your interpretation of a primary scientific source as reflecting an example of scientific method constitutes original research. "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation." WP:PSTS --SteveMcCluskey (talk) 23:50, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

DYK for Further research is needed

On 24 October 2017, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Further research is needed, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that in a sample of medical reviews, useless treatments were just as likely to be recommended for further research as were useful treatments? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Further research is needed. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Further research is needed), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Alex Shih (talk) 00:01, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	"More research is needed into methods to determine when more research is needed" Hongooi (talk) 08:10, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Belated thanks, Hongooi. You've given me my first barnstar. HLHJ (talk) 02:32, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Wow! Kudos!

Hey HLHJ, I just read Pavement light, having seen it mentioned on the DYK talk page. I thought it was a fascinating article, with cool pics and all kinds of interesting exploration of the practicalities, history and geographic distribution. Hope it's not weird to get a message like this, but it was a great read and it occurred to me that I could tell you so. 70.67.222.124 (talk) 14:48, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi, 70.67.222.124. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I was sort of worried that there were too many black-and-white pictures. I'll be adding a few more soon. There are some definitely creepy uses of edit records, but there is no way your charming message falls in that category. Thank you very much for taking the trouble to write it, it made me happy. HLHJ (talk) 02:44, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

DYK for Pavement light

On 3 December 2017, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Pavement light, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the purple "jewels" (pictured) in old sidewalks are pavement lights, which bend daylight into the basement below? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Pavement light. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Pavement light), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Alex Shih (talk) 00:02, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

What a genuinely interesting DYK about something so commonly seen, but which I'd never really thought about before. Good work! Bob talk 11:50, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Precious

pavement light

Thank you for quality articles such as pavement light, Ofada rice, Afripedia Project and MyDemocracy.ca, for redirects, and catgories such as Category:Species endangered by destruction of specific ecosystems, for adding books and refs, and patience and diligence, - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:42, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

for the record ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:44, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Thank you, Gerda Arendt. I was pretty amazed by that, and by the amount of clickthrough to the articles linked from pavement light. HLHJ (talk) 02:02, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

A great image with a mysterious purple ;) - My lead image today and its article are simpler. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:46, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Two years ago, you were recipient no. 1788 of Precious, a prize of QAI! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:17, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

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Merger discussion for Coconut sugar

An article that you have been involved in editing—Coconut sugar—has been proposed for merging with another article. If you are interested, please participate in the merger discussion. Thank you. Phonet (talk) 08:24, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Using templates for sources

Concerning this edit, please learn how to fill out references properly using either the simple drop-down template (from the pick list) in the upper left of an edit box, or from WP:CIT. Try to think of common users wanting information about sources at a glance, rather than being offered only a URL as your current edit provided. Thanks. --Zefr (talk) 16:35, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Edit war warning

Your recent editing history at Sugar shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Jytdog (talk) 03:32, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the warning, Jytdog. How would you suggest I proceed? HLHJ (talk) 03:42, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

I suggest you work toward consensus on the talk page. That is what it is for. The content about health needs improving but relying so heavily on (for example) the 15 year old WHO ref is not going to fly in any effort to reach consensus. Jytdog (talk) 03:46, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Conflicts of interest in academic publishing

The article Conflicts of interest in academic publishing has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

essay

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. GigglesnortHotel (talk) 18:21, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Question about clarification request at Group testing

Hi HLHJ, CheChe here. I noticed that you recently added a 'clarification needed' tag to part of Group testing. I want to make sure the article is clear, but I'm having trouble seeing what might be ambiguous (or confusing) about that particular sentence. I appreciate that's probably just because I wrote it in the first place, so I'd like to ask if you could explain what the trouble you're having is? It would really help. Thanks, ♫CheChe♫ talk 21:06, 5 April 2018 (UTC).

Hi, ♫CheChe♫. Sorry, I should have clarified my request for clarification. It was the adjective "information-lower-bound" that I found unclear; could you maybe wikilink it? The first part of the article is admirably clear; I haven't gone through the rest in detail yet. HLHJ (talk) 18:45, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Ahh, I see. I hadn't realised that the term hadn't been used yet in the article. I've added a wiki-link to the relevant part for now, but I may revisit this later (to add an explanatory footnote or bracket). Thanks again, ♫CheChe♫ talk 22:16, 6 April 2018 (UTC).

DYK nomination of Conflicts of interest in academic publishing

Hello! Your submission of Conflicts of interest in academic publishing at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:53, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

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GOCE Requests page

Hello HLHJ, thank you for doing copy-edits at the Guild of Copy Editors; it's always good to see new copy-editors there. In future though, when you accept copy-editing requests at the Requests page, can you please mark them with the {{Working}} template? This lets others know which requests are being worked on so you both avoid edit conflicts and overwriting each other's edits. You should mark the request with {{Done}} when you're finished or {{partly done}} if you can't finish the c/e or you feel the article needs more c/e work. Also, please avoid adding extensive comments about the c/e or the article's content to the Requests page; short comments regarding the request itself that inform other editors are fine though. This helps keep the page uncluttered and usable. Extended comments about the request should go on the Requests talk page and extended comments about article content should go on the article's talk page. Discussions with other editors should go on either of your talk pages. That said; welcome to the GOCE; I hope you enjoy copy-editing there. :) Cheers, Baffle gab1978 04:49, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice, Baffle gab1978. I'm sorry if I edit-conflicted you. I should have read up on the system first. HLHJ (talk) 04:54, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

No problem; your edits didn't conflict with mine but it's possible if two editors accept the same request, and it can also cause friction between editors. There are some instructions for copy-editors at the top of the Requests page in the first expandable area (click on "show" to find them). I've credited you as co-copy-editor in the archive for your work on Death of Ms Dhu. Cheers, Baffle gab1978 05:24, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

File:No-one likes a quitter, e-cigarette ad.jpg

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File:Goody two shoes cigarette ad.jpg

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Alert

This message contains important information about an administrative situation on Wikipedia. It does not imply any misconduct regarding your own contributions to date.

Please carefully read this information:

The Arbitration Committee has authorised discretionary sanctions to be used for pages regarding the Electronic cigarette topic area, a topic which you have edited. The Committee's decision is here.

Discretionary sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimize disruption to controversial topics. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to the topic that do not adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, our standards of behavior, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. This message is to notify you that sanctions are authorised for the topic you are editing. Before continuing to edit this topic, please familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

QuackGuru (talk) 03:12, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for telling me, QuackGuru. I had seen the odd notice at the top of a page, but I'd never looked up what "discretionary sanctions" meant before. I've now read up on it. I haven't actually read every Wikipedia policy, though... Please let me know of any specific things in my editing that might be problematic. I realize that the topic is controversial, I want to edit it well, and I think a range of viewpoints is necessary to editing it well. If I'm out-of-line, I'll do my best to fix, and if I'm out-of-line because I am ignorant, or might become so, I really appreciate it when my fellow editors fix that.

Side note: tree shaping is controversial? Not, off hand, something I would have guessed... HLHJ (talk) 03:39, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

The topic is not controversial. What editors are doing is. QuackGuru (talk) 03:55, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Restoring disputed content

You restored this content and made slight changes, but the content contains off-topic content, unreliable sources, and failed verification content. Do you agree you will stop adding or restoring off-topic content, unreliable sources, and failed verification content? QuackGuru (talk) 15:21, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Replies on article talk page. HLHJ (talk) 05:53, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Marketing of e-cigarettes

This article is littered with off-topic content and unreliable sources and failed verification content. For example, the article contains content about safety, addictiveness, harm to bystanders, use by non-smokers, stress, dieting, cost, and smoking cessation. Those are not about marketing. There is also a lot of unsourced content. The article is called "Marketing of e-cigarettes" but it is about e-cigarettes in general which cover different topics. That is what the main page is for. That is by definition a WP:CONTENTFORK. You have not cleaned up the content fork. QuackGuru (talk) 16:54, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Replies on article talk page. HLHJ (talk) 05:53, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Hi HLHJ!

I noticed on the talk page you linked Jenny to a section on "marketing targeting youth" with a lot of great information on it. It seems like this section has been deleted from the current page. I see that there is a lot of debate over which topics belong on this page, but my group and I think it is relevant and important information. We would like to expand on the marketing directed at children topic. Is it possible to add that information back to the page?

-Colleen mccann (talk) 17:09, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

@JenniferKaiser2020, Dumbpepper, Colleen mccann, and Grracelee:

Apologies for the slow reply, I just saw this. I'm sorry you have walked into an edit dispute. Thank you very much for the content all of you have contributed, and please do not feel that your edits have been useless merely because they have been reverted (reversion, as I trust you know, is reversible).

There was discussion on the talk page on "marketing targeting youth". However, the IP editor seems to have been laboring under some incomprehensible misapprehensions, so I'm not sure you can really take those criticisms into account. I'd say be bold and re-post your improved version. If an edit comment removing content makes a specific, actionable criticism, fixing the named problem and restoring the content is a good thing to do. If the edit comment does not, you have a right to an explanation; you can post on the talk page politely asking the reverting editor for one, and ping them so they see it (please feel free to ping me, too, as I may be able to explain). There are two archives to the talk page (linked from a box at the top), and reading them may be useful. Some of the content discussed there should probably return to the article, I have been busy elsewhere and not had time to argue all this out properly.

I'm sorry, I'm not sure quite what I linked Jenny to, or where. Was it this old version? If not, and I haven't given you the information you wanted, could you please give me a link to the statement of mine which you are talking about?

Giving unsolicited advice is sort of weird, and I hope you will forgive me for inflicting it on you again, especially if it's stuff you already know. If a sentence is criticized as "failed verification", or "not in citation given", I'd suggest quoting the supporting statement from the source by adding something to your citation template like this: |quote="X is Y". You can see this done at Electric smoking device. I'd also recommend reading Nicotine marketing for background and for some sources you could use (for instance, for the chemical composition of e-cigarettes "vapour"). PubMed is also an excellent place to find scientific sources, though it doesn't do news media. I also suggest SRITA's section on e-cigs, linked at top of page (be careful about WP:PRIMARY sources, but SRITA's commentary is secondary and can be cited). Attributing statements of scientific fact to "scientists" is generally not necessary; many journalists do it in less than exemplary attempts to add human interest and avoid being sued, but it's not best practice. Distinguishing independent scientific researchers from industry-funded ones is very good practice (check PubMed; their COI statements and funding statements are useful, although sometimes you will only find the info in the article fulltext). Working really hard on neutral language will help get your content retained. This does not mean waffling or soft-talking around the facts; think something that the New York Times might publish, hard-hitting but strictly, neutrally factual.

The learning curve here is steep, but you are clearly learning fast. It usually takes about two months for editors to get really established and find editing easy; at the rate you are going, I'd guess not that long. I very much hope you stick around and continue to edit after your course is over (less than two percent of students on editing courses do, Blue Raspberry tells me, which is really sad). Please don't hesitate to ask for help; even if it's years from now when you next edit, and you are editing something totally unrelated, the offer stands. Another good place to go for advice on medical topics is Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine. The editors there are very helpful. Many of them are health professionals and learners in the field, like you.

I really appreciate your contributions. You can see that I've used them to build more content upon. The article is already the better for your efforts, and your efforts are improving the article with increasing efficiency. HLHJ (talk) 04:47, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Marketing of e-cigarettes

Hello! Your submission of Marketing of e-cigarettes at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Chumash11 (talk) 20:56, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Edit warring

Your recent editing history at Marketing of electronic cigarettes shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. QuackGuru (talk) 19:16, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

QuackGuru, I've been reverting edits by IPs that remove large chunks of material and replace it with unsourced things that don't even make sense. I will stop reverting them and ask for semi-protection. HLHJ (talk) 19:20, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Your full reverts of IPs is disputed on the talk page. Do you agree to stop restoring off-topic content and failed verification content? QuackGuru (talk) 19:29, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Replies on article talk page. HLHJ (talk) 20:31, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

You have replied on the talk page but you have not agreed to stop restoring off-topic content and failed verification content. Again, do you agree to stop restoring off-topic content and failed verification content? QuackGuru (talk) 20:41, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Replies on article talk page. HLHJ (talk) 21:08, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I initially disagreed with the moving around of the content. You appear to be engaging in edit warring again.[2][3] QuackGuru (talk) 14:12, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

See earlier discussion, and the later section in which you said "The editor who added the duplication states "I was fixing the duplications."[12] If they were fixing the duplications how come the duplication is still in the article?" and I responded "Because I didn't save the edit, due to an edit conflict. I have now saved it." . HLHJ (talk) 21:03, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Marketing of electronic cigarettes

The article Marketing of electronic cigarettes has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

POV Fork

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. QuackGuru (talk) 20:45, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I am surprised and perplexed, QuackGuru. You've put a lot of effort into editing that page. HLHJ (talk) 20:54, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

If the tag is removed without removing the off-topic content there is going to be a serious problem. QuackGuru (talk) 21:05, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

What serious problem, QuackGuru? Deleting it would be a normal part of the WP:PROD process, as far as I can tell. HLHJ (talk) 03:02, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

ENDS marketing listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect ENDS marketing. Since you had some involvement with the ENDS marketing redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 00:24, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Misrepresenting the image

This edit added content to the image that is using sources that do not describing the image and is not about marketing. I responded on the talk page. For example, the part "This 2011 e-cigarette ad uses several standard marketing methods: emphasizing choice, freedom, and rebellion[10]" does not mention the 2011 ad. QuackGuru (talk) 16:55, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

You did not fix the issues with the caption. What source is about blu e-cigs ads? QuackGuru (talk) 18:09, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Replies on article talk page. Separately, it is fine to just notify me by including a Template:User link in an edit, if you don't want to post a second time on my user talk page; I will see that just as fast, generally. HLHJ (talk) 18:14, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

The replies on the talk page did not address "What source is about blu e-cigs ads?" If no source mentioned the ad then it probably does not belong in the caption. QuackGuru (talk) 18:18, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

If you think the text does not misrepresent the image then please explain how the source verifies the claim when it does not mention the 2011 ad. QuackGuru (talk) 20:46, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Heat-not-burn tobacco product concerns

Issues related to your edits are being discussed on the talk page. If the issues are not addressed soon the content can be deleted or moved to the talk page. The excessive citations are also causing a verification problem. It is difficult to determine which source verifies which claim when all the citations are placed at the end of the sentence. QuackGuru (talk) 19:18, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Replies on article talk page. HLHJ (talk) 05:29, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Snus

I was editing the article. I noticed there is a problem in the lead. The Food and Drug Administration ruled in 2015 that there was not sufficient evidence to permit snus to be advertised as a safer alternative to smoking.[4][unreliable medical source?] It was not about snus in general. It was a specific brand and the source is incompatible with MEDRS. QuackGuru (talk) 15:02, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Replies on article talk page. If you could please post about articles on article talk pages, and add a WP:PING, I will see it just as fast, and replying will be faster for me. HLHJ (talk) 03:51, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Goody two shoes cigarette ad.jpg

⚠

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DYK nomination of Conflicts of interest in academic publishing

Hello! Your submission of Conflicts of interest in academic publishing at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! BlueMoonset (talk) 21:36, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:No-one likes a quitter, e-cigarette ad.jpg

⚠

Thanks for uploading File:No-one likes a quitter, e-cigarette ad.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 17:38, 24 June 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Conflicts of interest in academic publishing

On 3 July 2018, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Conflicts of interest in academic publishing, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that supplements and "symposia" published by academic journals may be paid publications, neither independently peer-reviewed nor edited by journal staff? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Conflicts of interest in academic publishing. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Conflicts of interest in academic publishing), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Maile (talk) 00:02, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Zoë Porphyrogenita

Hi HLHJ. Good to hear that you are still with us and back on Wikipedia. Thanks for posting an apology on the DYK. That was thoughtful of you. As you probably saw. A hook made it in the end. I hope that you will return to your fruitful editing of the past. Cheers. Gog the Mild (talk) 00:47, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Sugar edits

On my talk page, you said: "this is just to let you know that I've left a message for you at Talk:Sugar#Funding of health research. Thanks!" I read your comments, but have to say I feel the issue is settled for now. I don't want to be involved in a discussion other than improving the article according to editor consensus. --Zefr (talk) 17:57, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Your note at Talk:Sugar

I suggest you review this comment and strike the implication that Zefr is an industry shill. You may or may not know that I work a lot on paid editing and COI issues, and I have no tolerance for that kind of commentary, and will seek community action against you if you continue. It is possible to discuss content disputes on the article talk page without going there. Jytdog (talk) 02:59, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

I really didn't mean to imply that. I meant to say that it's easy to cite incorrect information; I've done it, in that article. I will edit the comment to make that clear. HLHJ (talk) 03:02, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

OK, thanks! Jytdog (talk) 15:03, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Jytdog, I thank you for finding fault with my editing; there is no shortage of such faults, and having them pointed out is helpful. In this case I clearly failed to judge the effect of my post, and I am glad to have it resolved.

I hope most editors follow policies on principle, not because of the consequences of not doing so. I think I do. May I ask that, when you are asking me to change a behaviour, you initially not raise the subject of consequences? My reasons for this preference aren't rational, but I'd feel better. HLHJ (talk) 01:22, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

OK that is reasonable. My apologies. Jytdog (talk) 01:33, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Accepted; I should have been more careful, and not wasted your time. Apologies. HLHJ (talk) 01:43, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for September 7

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Ventilated cigarette, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Dilution (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 09:05, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Failed verification content

You stated "QuackGuru, I am even more confused. You wrote "They are marketed as "smoke-free" products is supported by the first source", which seems to contradict your earlier tagging of the statement as fv, and at least part of your reason for removing the sentence."[4]

It does not contradict the tagging. The content "Strategies for marketing iQOS include marketing it as "smoke-free"," is different than "They are marketed as "smoke-free" products." Do you agree you won't add failed verification content to nicotine related articles? I have responded to your comments on the talk page for months. You are continuing to propose content that appears to failed verification or is previously disputed. You also wrote "and as you say one source would be enough to support it,"[5] I did not say that. They are different accounts of different things. For example, the second source is about the promotion of IQOS in Ontario, Canada.[6] QuackGuru (talk) 17:05, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Replied in ongoing discussion on article talk page. HLHJ (talk) 01:03, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for September 14

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Free produce movement, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page William Fox (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver).

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 09:14, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, HLHJ. You have new messages at Wikipedia talk:Did you know.
Message added 23:20, 14 September 2018 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 23:20, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Incomplete DYK nomination

Hello! Your submission of Template:Did you know nominations/Sturm Cigarette Company at the Did You Know nominations page is not complete; if you would like to continue, please link the nomination to the nominations page as described in step 3 of the nomination procedure. If you do not want to continue with the nomination, tag the nomination page with {{db-g7}}, or ask a DYK admin. Thank you. DYKHousekeepingBot (talk) 11:01, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Please format citations

Please don't use bareURLs, as you did here. It makes work for others just to check what you are doing, much less dealing with the problems discussed in WP:Bare URLs.

There is a very easy to use and fast tool, in the tool bar in the editing window.

Just follow the steps 1, 2 and 3 as shown and fill in the details

Thank you for contributing to Wikipedia. Remember that when adding content about health, please only use high-quality reliable sources as references. We typically use review articles, major textbooks and position statements of national or international organizations (There are several kinds of sources that discuss health: here is how the community classifies them and uses them). WP:MEDHOW walks you through editing step by step. A list of resources to help edit health content can be found here. The edit box has a built-in citation tool to easily format references based on the PMID or ISBN.

1. While editing any article or a wikipage, on the top of the edit window you will see a toolbar which says "cite" click on it
2. Then click on "templates",
3. Choose the most appropriate template and fill in the details beside a magnifying glass followed by clicking said button. For journals, if you fill in "PMID" and click the magnifying glass, the whole thing will autofill. You need to manually enter the pmc, if there is one...

We also provide style advice about the structure and content of medicine-related encyclopedia articles. The welcome page is another good place to learn about editing the encyclopedia. If you have any questions, please feel free to drop me a note. Jytdog (talk) 01:13, 22 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, Jytdog; that was helpful, as I have long been using a biography database, which I was having problems with. Mvolz told me about the work she was doing with scrapers, and it's nice to see it in action. Knowing it existed, I should have looked up how to use it myself. HLHJ (talk) 01:47, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

DYK for European pilchard

On 5 October 2018, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article European pilchard, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that overfishing of European pilchard (pictured) and anchovy in the Adriatic Sea can cause dramatic changes in the ecosystem? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/European pilchard. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, European pilchard), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Alex Shih (talk) 00:01, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Reprise from User talk:Eihel

Hi, Eihel. On this edit: my understanding is that lower-case en:wiktionary:baroque is a common adjective for ornate and complex things, while upper-case en:wiktionary:Baroque is a proper adjective for stuff from the Baroque period. HLHJ (talk) 01:18, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, you'd fixed it. Should have checked. Apologies, please ignore. HLHJ (talk) 01:28, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

(deactivated notifications, i guess. With a title by discussion, it's prettier) Hello HLHJ. So, I canceled. QED. When you are on my personal pages, there is no need to notify me. See you next time on WP --Eihel (talk) 01:38, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

COI tag removal, Heat-not-burn tobacco product page

Hi HLHJ, I've posted a comment last week, regarding the COI tag on the Heat-not-burn tobacco product talk page, and would appreciate your input on the topic - when you have a chance. Thanks! Sarah at PMI (talk) 08:54, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Sorry for multiple postings, I see the tag has been removed now. Have a nice weekend! Sarah at PMI (talk) 13:49, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

I've commented, thanks for the heads-up. HLHJ (talk) 01:40, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Sturm Cigarette Company

On 9 October 2018, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Sturm Cigarette Company, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that despite the party's anti-smoking faction, the Sturmabteilung was funded by a Nazi cigarette company (advertisement pictured)? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Sturm Cigarette Company. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Sturm Cigarette Company), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Alex Shih (talk) 00:01, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Edit to "Anti-tobacco movement in Nazi Germany"

Greetings and felicitations. I noticed that this edit of yours added the named reference "nazi_policy", but did not add the reference's body, resulting in the error "Cite error: The named reference nazi_policy was invoked but never defined". I thought you'd like to know so that you can correct this. —DocWatson42 (talk) 14:54, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, DocWatson42, and thanks for giving the edit I did it in, too, it made it easier to fix. I copied the ref from another article without copying its contents. Fixed. HLHJ (talk) 16:18, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

You're welcome (^_^), though including the edit seemed to be a no-brainer—but then, I've done this before. —DocWatson42 (talk) 23:20, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Schloss Weilburg

On 16 October 2018, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Schloss Weilburg, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Schloss Weilburg, a Baroque garden palace, contains a Renaissance palace (engraving pictured)? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Schloss Weilburg. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Schloss Weilburg), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Alex Shih (talk) 00:01, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for outstanding contributions to make this article more comprehensible and more beautiful! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:03, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Notifications

Hello HLHJ

I've noticed your edit on the Notifications FAQ. I've edited that page to explain that only the last 200 notifications are kept.

Is it solving your issue?

Best, Trizek (WMF) (talk) 14:03, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi, Trizek (WMF). Not quite, although it's good information to have, thank you for adding it. I filed a more complete bug report at Wikipedia talk:Notifications#Read notifications. Please let me know if the explanation is in any way unclear. HLHJ (talk) 18:28, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. That's quite different from what I've understood from your edit on the FAQ. I'll reply after your report. Trizek (WMF) (talk) 11:58, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for October 27

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A cup of coffee for you!

I appreciate any voice you give to the discussions about editor retention. I feel that the issue requires development of the discourse, and that no one has all the answers. Probably the solution will be recognition that different outreach strategies and different success metrics apply in different circumstances. The on-wiki documentation of this is a jumble and I cannot recommend a place to read it all. If you ever want to talk by video or voice chat I can share some perspective on it and point you to other views also. Anything you say about the issue anywhere, and anyone else you draw into the conversation, is useful to me. Thank you a lot for posting meta:Community Wishlist Survey 2019/Editing/Editor retention aid. I intend to post comments and support for this. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:51, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the encouragement, Blue Rasberry. I hope I haven't been overly dogmatic; I certainly don't think there is only one way to usefully address this problem. My XMPP server currently has some bugs, but when I finally get around to fixing it it would be good to talk. I suspect your views would be very useful to me. HLHJ (talk) 02:26, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Cigarette Claw Machine

HLHJ, thanks for your message regarding this edit. I think you're right that with an accurate caption, this photo would be relevant to the article. My source for believing this photo to be taken in Jaffa, Israel comes from the Flickr album listed as the source in the photo's Wikimedia listing. The Flickr user says the album contains his photos from his trips to Israel. The photos immediately before (a VW Beetle) and after (a juice vendor) the claw machine photo are both labeled as being taken in Jaffa, and examining the exif data indicates they were taken just a few minutes before and a few minutes after the claw machine photo. The timestamps are too close together to allow them to come from different cities. 24.101.31.180 (talk) 14:14, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

That seems utterly conclusive, 24.101.31.180. Thank you for picking me up on my error; I should have been more careful, but having written it, I'd never have noticed it was incorrect. I've edited the picture caption on its Commons page accordingly. If you are interested in the subject, I recommend the SRITA collection of nicotine ads.

If you don't mind my saying so, you seem to be being very restrained and wikignomish in your edits. This is perfectly acceptable, but I hope you did not refrain from boldly editing the captions in consideration of me. I hope you will also feel free to create an Wikipedia:Account if you want one, though again, it is entirely your choice. Thanks again! HLHJ (talk) 07:21, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

DYK for Women in Iceland

On 16 November 2018, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Women in Iceland, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the first woman voted in as head of state says she would not have got her job if women in Iceland had not walked away from theirs? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Women in Iceland. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Women in Iceland), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Continuing Community Wishlist 2019 Conversation

@HLHJ:, regarding the questions you posed about my experience in the community in the context of our 2019 Community Wishlist Survey discussion...

1) Most people don’t seem to “see” the Wikipedia community, yet you (“you” being me, Stussll) seem to have gotten involved with it almost immediately…what led you to do so? In short, I think I found the community when I did because I was looking for it. Leading up to my first edits, I'd been growing increasingly curious about how Wikipedia, the "public good" I'd come to value and depend on so heavily, came/comes to being. And a core part of that in my view was, and still is, Wikipedia's community and culture. Thus, why it was one of the first parts of the whole I sought out.

2) Model content is more visible to newcomers than the editors whose productive contributions sum to those very articles. How does this compare with your experience? This description captures my experience as well. This makes sense to me considering Wikipedia's collaborative and encyclopedic nature. What I'm growing increasingly interested in is the balance between the prominence of the end product (articles) and the collaborative process they emerge from. Pattern 11 appears to be seeking something similar.

3) How did you perceive the Wikipedia community when you first started editing (or even before)? How do you currently perceive it? I did not have a clear perception of the community prior making my first edit. In fact, this uncertainty added to my curiosity. Now, several months in, I'm taken aback by how committed people are to the movement's mission and excited they are to include others in it. Here I'm alluding to the level of detail and attention people like you have put into their Community Wish List Proposals, the patience and thoroughness with which tenured editors have answered my [sometimes] novice questions and the level of inclusivity – along a range of vectors – I've seen at the Bay Area WikiSalons. Certainly, the community faces a range of challenges that are well documented but even in articles such as that, I think it's striking how candidly and productively the community is able to talk about the challenges it faces. Stussll (talk) 00:18, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

That's interesting; so your unclear imagined idea of the community was a draw, not just the content. I think we draw a lot of people who are more interested in content than people (which is fine, no criticism of either view intended). I get odd reactions from friends learning that I edit Wikipedia, like "Oh, I always wondered who actually did that!". I once (a long time ago) got "So how is Wikipedia different from the Internet?" by someone unfamiliar with both; I'd agree with you that the answer is obviously the editing community/culture, including the software structure. I wonder if someone's done a survey on how widespread that curiosity is, and why many people seem not to just go find out (you seem to have found a good way to do so, but I can see some being uncertain as to where to start). I've seen that curiosity in both friendly and hostile forms (ranging from solid social criticism of systemic bias etc. to "The Wikipedia is a conspiracy against my facts!"). I've added a section to Wikipedia:Encourage the newcomers; I think the essay is in need of a bit of a rewrite. I hope you will also edit it; your perspective as a newish editor is regrettably unusual among those writing in the essay space. HLHJ (talk) 06:40, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

My conversations with other editors about their editing experiences seem to be similar to yours: most were drawn by content. Your friend's comment – "Oh, I always wondered who actually did that!" – certainly resonates. In fact, I'd asked myself a version of the same question for years. Thank you for pointing me to the Wikipedia:Encourage the newcomers – this looks like it could be a good place to share what my editing experience has been like. Semi-related to the above...I *think* I remember reading that you started editing in 2005; do I have the right? Regardless, I wonder: what has your editing experience been like? Stussll (talk) 09:05, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Stussll, apologies for the slow reply; I haven't been around. I'm not quite sure when I started editing, especially as I didn't make an account until it became necessary for some edits. My activity level has varied; I've been more active in recent years. I started back when new editors were not much watched-over, and by the time Wikipedia's Eternal August began in 2017 I was established enough that I knew the more important ropes and was clearly not a vandal, so I never got much scrutiny. I've generally worked on somewhat niche topics (citrus taxonomy, for instance), and often in fairly non-subjective areas with little pre-existing content, so I often haven't interacted much with other editors. It's felt much like taking notes for my own use, apart from the fact that I sometimes come across off-wiki evidence that other people have read my content. It's nice to know one's work to be useful. I don't recall coming into conflict with anyone until a fairly trivial critique of an edit of mine in 2015, which I resolved by adding more sources. More recently, I was invited by WhatamIdoing to nominate Further research is needed for DYK, and have since nominated some more articles, which has brought me into contact with others and into the fringes of some conflict. Of late I've also been taking an interest in conflicts of interest in science-related information (misleading marketing, misinformation and FUD, conflicts of interest in academic publishing, and citation of shill sources in Wikipedia). This is a fascinating topic, but one that has got me involved in dispute settlement mechanisms for the first time. It's also caused me to learn community rules much more formally and less inductively than I have in the past, and interact with more editors. So I've been learning a lot more about the community, although my worries about the long-term future of Wikipedia pre-date this. HLHJ (talk) 04:25, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

HLHJ, "It's felt much like taking notes for my own use, apart from the fact that I sometimes come across off-wiki evidence that other people have read my content. It's nice to know one's work to be useful." Mmm, this is well put. I'm especially curious about two parts of this comment: 1) "It's felt much like taking notes for my own use..." and 2) "It's nice to know one's work to be useful." To "1)" What – if any – places besides Wikipedia (public or not) exist in your mind as potential "homes" for a new piece of information you encounter? And to "2)" When and how do you typically notice the usefulness of your contributions? If these questions resonate with you, I'd be keen to hear your answers, but please feel no urgency or obligation ^ _ ^ Meta: I'm sorry it's taken me this long to reply. The past couple months have been uniquely busy; in January I joined the Foundation working as a product manager on the Editing Team. I'm sharing this here because I suspect there may be threads/topics, similar to the one you and I first connected through, that would be valuable to talk about...provided you have the interest and time to when they surface. Oh, and you mentioned WhatamIdoing, we now work together! Talk about someone who is helpful...

No worries, I have been equally slow . Congratulations on the job, Stussll, and best of luck with it. WhatamIdoing is indeed most helpful. I've e-mailed you an answer to your questions. HLHJ (talk) 03:48, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

ArbCom 2018 election voter message

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Weighing in on Growth team work

Hi HLHJ -- it was good to correspond a bit with you around your perspective and ideas for new editor retention. The Growth team has been making a lot of progress in the last few months, and we've been doing some planning recently. I'm hoping you could take a look at some of our current work and post any thoughts you have. We're working on a "help panel" (comments can go here), and on the next steps for the "Personalized first day" project (comments can go here). Thank you for any time you can give! -- MMiller (WMF) (talk) 22:19, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the invite, MMiller (WMF). I've been away from the wiki, but I have somewhat belatedly responded. I look forward to seeing the results of your efforts on editor retention. HLHJ (talk) 01:14, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

2019

Die Zeit, die Tag und Jahre macht

Happy 2019 -

begin it with music and memories

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:24, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Ein genau 300-jahre-alte Neujahrslied ist schon ein schöner Jahresanfang! Glückwünsche zum exzellente Artikel. Vielen Dank, Gerda Arendt (auch für Ray's Rules), und alles Gute im neuen Jahr! HLHJ (talk) 05:27, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Danke, - Ray ist heute auf der Main page, DYK? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:56, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Please revert

Please revert back to a version such as a version before the disputed content was added, including the charred pizza image if you think that improves the article. Others may disagree if it is reverted to an older and shorter version. QuackGuru (talk) 22:30, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Please go ahead and revert to the version you think is best. QuackGuru (talk) 22:52, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Rather than discuss which version to revert back to I think you can revert it. I'm not sure why you have not reverted the content. If you dispute it you can revert it. It's that simple. You don't need to cont8une to discuss reverting to an older version. I insist you revert to the version you think is best. I don't understand why you have not reverted. I am not disputing you to revert. QuackGuru (talk) 23:06, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

I am a little confused why you have not reverted back to the version you think is best. I insisted on the talk page for you to revert the recent changes I made. QuackGuru (talk) 23:20, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Replied in the ongoing discussion on the relevant talk page. HLHJ (talk) 02:01, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Nicotine and other articles

I don't have time to respond and edit for the nicotine page. I am busy. Maybe you can get feedback from others. I don't want to keep you waiting for me. I thought I give you a heads up. You can also start a RfC for other opinions. QuackGuru (talk) 01:48, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Replied in the ongoing discussion at Talk:Nicotine#Lede edits. HLHJ (talk) 02:01, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Occurrence_and_biosynthesis for the Sources section. The lede summaries that section. QuackGuru (talk) 02:59, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Music notation RfC

No one formally closed the Commons music notation RfC and no one told me what to do about it when I asked, so I eventually added a project tag to phab:T208494 and quickly received replies from Legoktm and TheDJ. There has now been some progress, I guess. There are now subtasks for each file format.

Although I'm not impartial, I've assumed that the majority consensus is enough to keep MuseScore on the list.

I would strongly suggest you create a Phabricator account if you don't have one, especially since you were quite active in the RfC; there might be something I've missed in writing the Phabricator tickets.

It's also not totally clear to me if the RfC indicates rendering/thumbnail generation isn't necessary for now. It wasn't a question in the RfC and I assumed that the implementation could omit it, and generating thumbnails would mean more code to write (especially since there are essentially three different file formats to deal with). If it's not necessary, then according to TheDJ's checklist the only blockers are the security review and figuring out how to deal with the compressed formats (MuseScore and MusicXML). Jc86035 (talk) 14:53, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi, Jc86035, and thank you for the heads-up. I have made a phab account and will come back and look at this. HLHJ (talk) 23:40, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Your ping re. Possible NFCC violation

Hi HLHJ! I saw that you pinged me at Wikipedia:Media_copyright_questions#Possible_NFCC#8_violation, but I don't remember the conversation you referenced. Maybe you were thinking of someone else. I thought I'd let you know in case you need to ping someone else! Have a good day :) --EpochFail (talk • contribs) 17:24, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry, EpochFail, I was thinking of someone else; as QuackGuru reminded me, it was Explicit, and not you. My apologies for the mistake, brain glitch. Have a good day! HLHJ (talk) 21:21, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for being one of Wikipedia's top medical contributors!

The 2018 Cure Award

In 2018 you were one of the top ~250 medical editors across any language of Wikipedia. Thank you from Wiki Project Med Foundation for helping bring free, complete, accurate, up-to-date health information to the public. We really appreciate you and the vital work you do! Wiki Project Med Foundation is a user group whose mission is to improve our health content. Consider joining here, there are no associated costs.

Thanks again :-) -- Doc James along with the rest of the team at Wiki Project Med Foundation 17:41, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Marketing of electronic cigarettes

The article Marketing of electronic cigarettes has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

PVFORK; no improvements in months of discussion which have provided no clear consensus; several problems with the article, such as irrelevantness and false citations

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. —Atcovi (Talk - Contribs) 22:46, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Foundation for a Smoke-Free World

The article Foundation for a Smoke-Free World has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

Not notable for a separate page. Violation of WP:SPINOFF. The section called Philip_Morris_International#Non-profit_organization should be expanded first before creating a new article.

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. QuackGuru (talk) 20:41, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Redirecting page:Foundation for_a_Smoke-Free_World

A page you created, Foundation for_a_Smoke-Free_World, does not merit inclusion as a standalone entry and has been merged (and redirected) to Philip Morris International#Researchwhich is related to the subject of the article. Please contribute further improvements over there.∯WBG^converse 15:12, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for pyrolysis diagram

Thanks for the diagram and text on thermal decomposition of organic matter! I have added them to Pyrolysis. See also Talk:Pyrolysis. --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 01:21, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Southern Ocean Waters

Hi
We worked on your request Southern_Ocean_Waters but never got it finished. I would like to know if we could complete it as I think it will be nice and we both put in work in this. Please let me know how you want to proceed, complete it or wast it? thanks. --Goran tek-en (talk) 11:49, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Category:Species endangered by rubber plantations has been nominated for discussion

Category:Species endangered by rubber plantations, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you.

This also covers Category:Species endangered by coffee plantations and Category:Species endangered by sugarcane plantations. – Fayenatic London 13:29, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Apologies for not getting back to this sooner, Fayenatic; I've answered at Category talk:Endangered species by reason they are threatened. HLHJ (talk) 22:47, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

as a note on cathedral fire video

From the website it was extracted from , they use a "Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License" for all content posted to the site.

That said, this may be a VOA situation where they also use copyrighted footage from other networks, so I agree with the pull until better verification can be found. --Masem (t) 18:07, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Masem. I failed to notice that. I hope it is free content; an aerial panning shot at 50m is not an easy-to-replace file. Feel free to re-instate it at your judgment. HLHJ (talk) 22:49, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Continued discussion at Talk:Notre-Dame de Paris fire#Adding video with aerial panning shot at ~50m. HLHJ (talk) 16:58, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Diligence
	For your work on Notre-Dame de Paris fire. puggo (talk) 21:29, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, puggo, that's very kind of you. HLHJ (talk) 22:53, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

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Response

Hi HLHJ, I’m responding to your question at Talk:Electric smoking system. I'm happy to discuss this, although please note that I'm answering in the capacity of a regular editor, not as an RfC closer, so I have no special authority on this. I'm also going to be quite long-winded here, so please bear with me!

The idea of overwriting existing content with a draft is a particular editing style normally used in specific circumstances. For example, as in this case, it can help with making major changes that might be controversial, especially when multiple editors are involved. WP:DRAFT might have some information you'd be interested in. That said, in my experience not too many editors often use this style, and overwriting an entire article like this is a very rare occurrence (even overwriting of individual sections is rare), so it's not likely something you need to expect again any time soon.

On a practical level, if I wanted to prevent this kind of situation on an article I'm working on, I would either ask editors if they could use a more incremental approach, or ask that each change (or each significant change) be proposed and discussed individually. If comparing the merits of two versions, I would filter out any changes I think are improvements or at least neutral, and focus on the ones I object to (or object to the most). Ideally, this would let us quickly find the heart of any disagreements, as well as focusing my efforts on the things that I think are most important. If you're interested more generally in cases where you want your work to be stable in the long term, the broad answer is to establish consensus, although of course that is easier said than done. In addition, it's particularly difficult for controversial topics. I find that finding and adding new sources, as long as the sources are valid, is the most likely type of edit to remain in the article. On the other hand, if you oppose a change to existing content, I assume you'll already be aware of WP:BRD.

More philosophically speaking, and this is something that happens to everyone - I would say that to some degree, editing an open-content project like Wikipedia requires a level of awareness or acceptance that your work will one day be overwritten, whether that happens tomorrow or ten years from now. In the worst cases, this may even come with insults or accusations of vandalism; I'm reminded of several of the points at WP:OWB (which I consider highly recommended reading in general). Unfortunately, I think it's pretty much unavoidable that editors become discouraged in situations like these. On my part, I remind myself that in the normal course of editing, the subsequent versions will usually include aspects of the previous versions, even if they aren't exactly as I wrote them. Even if not, I would expect to have affected the future editor's process of editing, just due to having been a part of the article's evolution, no matter how small - to say nothing of those people who read the previous version while it was active.

With regards to next steps for this specific article, I would focus on the comment this closure is made without judgement on any of the individual changes to the article. This was in part to try and emphasize that editors of the previous text should not feel discouraged, and that the door is open for any of the specific changes that the replacement entails to be proposed for reversion. The conclusion is basically that Version B is better than Version A overall, but that there's no concrete outcome about any of the specific differences. Since it's now been a few weeks, it could be argued that the new version has gained an implicit consensus, although if you’ve been away then explaining that could help.

Another approach, one which is often undervalued, is simply to walk away. No article needs to be perfect, and there are thousands of other articles I'm interested in where I can work on important improvements just as easily, with less stress and greater productivity. It's especially valuable to be able to do this in a contentious topic area like this one, even if only to avoid eventually burning out. Even if I think a certain edit is an appalling disservice to the encyclopedia, I could always be wrong, after all.

I’m not really sure if this is what you asked for, so please let me know if that helps. :-) Sunrise (talk) 18:51, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Hello, Sunrise, and thank you for being long-winded; it is helpful. I took a bit of a break from this topic to think it over, so I've been a bit slow replying. I originally posted to figure out if I should follow the draft-replace route for future edits, or if I should try to make incremental edits. I've used a section-replace RfC once before, at Talk:Sugar#RfC on sugar industry influence on health information and guidelines, but only after spending over half a year trying to get consensus. I'm generally OK with my content being overwritten; it's usually an improvement, and I still feel I've contributed. Sometimes I agree with removal of content I've written, too; if a removal is really undesirable, someone else will usually contest it for me before I get back to it myself, and if not I should probably consider that I might be wrong. I entirely agree with your perception of articles as usually undergoing progressive improvement, especially since I often write and article, look at it, and come to the conclusion that it could do with a drastic re-write by someone fresh to the subject. Usually I feel a lack of collaborators more keenly than the odd flicker of annoyance at having some small thing removed or overwritten in a way I don't initially like. I don't think I've been insulted by as many editors as I can count on one hand; it's been really rare for me. Disagreements, justified criticism, or thoughtless comments based on misunderstandings are not really insulting, which I suppose is the reason for assuming WP:GOODFAITH.

I did find WP:OWB useful. If you have any specific points where you think I could improve my behaviour, please do criticize me bluntly; I would genuinely appreciate it.

I have found editing in this topic area quite unpleasant. As time went on, I've come to edit this article partly out of a sense of duty; it's our most popular ones. Originally, I was doing it substantially in reaction; QuackGuru often extensively tags and criticizes content I've written, and understandably wishes these issues addressed. Unfortunately, fixing content takes a lot of time, and I've been unable to keep pace with QuackGuru even if I devote all of my free time to editing this topic. I did at one point start editing almost entirely in this topic area, but this was obviously not a good idea. In recent months, I've been trying to give it breaks, and keep editing other topics at the same time. Trying to edit on multiple subjects has a downside, tho; I haven't been back to Marketing of electronic cigarettes for months, and now that I check, QuackGuru is understandably getting impatient.

I have not managed to keep my point of view unguessable from my edits; certainly not from the sum of them. I think am usually arguing for the inclusion of specific pieces of information; QG seems to me to usually be arguing that one can't support the statement or that it doesn't belong in the article at all. Obviously we spend most of our time on edits where we disagree. I've been trying to avoid letting conflict polarize me, but I don't think I've been entirely successful. I did completely misunderstand and mis-cite a source at one point, and had to be corrected by a third party, which was especially bad. I have been trying for neutrality, and have found specific criticism on where I've failed helpful.

On next steps for the specific article, most recently I've been arguing for the restoration of content included in the draft but since removed. I've been trying to discuss broad principles and get consensus here rather than use BRD, but I'm not sure it's been successful. Previously, I attempted to start my second RfC on some basic factual points of contention, but I tried to jam too many into the RfC, and the discussion became rather incomprehensible. It was, reasonably, closed as malformed. I've been considering breaking it into smaller, clearer points and running one of those. But I hate running RfCs, and would far rather avoid them if possible. There are four new ones on that talk page already, and I do feel obliged to comment, as they are clearly in response to me. HLHJ (talk) 03:43, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm glad it was helpful! Don't worry about the timing, I didn't necessarily expect a long response, and besides I tend to be relatively slow myself. I wasn't thinking of any particular points from OWB when I mentioned it; I find many parts of it useful, so I like to cite it when I can and I thought you might be interested in it.

With regards to the RfCs, I don't think anyone should ever feel obliged to participate - editing is supposed to be a hobby! You would just be stepping back from the dispute and leaving the resolution to others. Besides, many more people watch talk pages than participate in them, which means that if others agree with you and see an issue going unaddressed they might step in anyways. I do empathize with the feeling that a particular topic is really important, and indeed I try to direct my editing with importance in mind. Just keep in mind that there are many such topics, and if the one you're working on is controversial then it will also be by far the slowest to show any progress.

If it's specifically RfCs that you dislike, you might want to try other methods of dispute resolution, such as WP:3O (if only two editors are involved) or WP:DRN. Or if you only meant that you don't like writing them, you might find WP:WRFC helpful if you haven't seen it before. (For that I should probably disclose that I was its primary author, although it's been cited often enough that I'd like to think people find it useful.) Sunrise (talk) 00:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

I've just been re-reading your advice, Sunrise, as I've just hit this very rare occurrence again. It's more the time-consuming and adversarial nature of formal processes which I dislike. WP:WRFC is helpful, and I will use it as a guide for writing RfCs. I think one needs the consent of the other editor for WP:3O (and WP:DRN), which I have not in the past been able to get. A lot of my difficulties are founded in differing interpretations of how things should be done; would neutrally asking for clarification of norms and rules in the appropriate forum be a reasonable way to try to resolve these disputes? This seems more efficient, as it forstalls future conflict, and it is collaborative and constructive, but one might argue that the wiki community is not the better for having more rules. For instance, could I ask at Wikipedia talk:Drafts for guidance on how and when an existing article should be re-written in, and then overwritten by, a draft? HLHJ (talk) 16:47, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Hi HLHJ, I haven’t been following this issue, so I may not be able to offer very good advice here. In general, I would say the answer to your question is yes, as long as the question is within the scope of the page, and indeed it’s a good way to get advice from the editors who know the most about a particular topic. That said, when it relates to an existing dispute there are ways it can backfire, which can basically be summarized as making sure you aren’t using the question to try and get an upper hand in said dispute (e.g. by asking something that’s already been discussed or answered elsewhere).

When writing the question, I would say to be to be as transparent as possible about your reasons for asking and the context of the situation, including links to any previous discussions. Since I see there’s a current ANI discussion, I would either wait until it’s over or include a statement that it’s unrelated or only tangentially related. (For me, as long as the issue isn’t time-sensitive I’d probably wait, mainly on the grounds that it might turn some editors away from getting involved.) I would also link my question somewhere that the others in the dispute will see it, and if they join the discussion to make sure not to use that page to argue the dispute. My approach is probably more cautious than necessary, but I’d rather spend the extra effort to minimize the possibility of misinterpretation or future conflicts. :-) Sunrise (talk) 00:27, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Criticism of nicotine-related editing

Copied from User talk:Sarah at PMI#Please be careful:

HLHJ, you had trouble acknowledging the content failed verification. See Talk:Electric_smoking_system/Archive_4#Pipe. HLHJ, you added an image of a pizza that was unrelated to the article.[7] There are many more examples. I think there is a strong case to be made for HLHJ being excluded from directly editing this topic area. The lengthy history of failed verification content edits advocating an idealised form of anti-tobacco is at odds with common practice, places HLHJ firmly on the wrong side of WP:V. HLHJ, for the next time, I suggest you propose all changes on talk first, with existing text, suggested replacement, reasons for the change, and sources. I suggest you do this one small change at a time. If you do not, then I think you could find that arbitration enforcement sanctions will be requested, and could likely exclude you from the topic area altogether. Consider this a free drink at the Last Chance Saloon; the next one will not be free. QuackGuru (talk) 23:50, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Copied (with indent altered) from User talk:Sarah at PMI#COI guideline:

People who want the latest concise information on PMI's IQOS product can visit Wikipedia and also get an article written independently.

The heat-not-burn tobacco product was largely written by me. I had to start a RfC because an editor was against me removing failed verification content and other problematic content. That's grounds for a topic ban if true.

This topic is not contentious and no evidence has been presented it is a contentious article. Check the archives of the heat-not-burn tobacco product article and you will find an editor waiting my time and others for months. There is an editor who appears to be unhappy and adds mass failed verification content to multiple articles. Check other nicotine articles they have edited. The problems continue with a certain editor. I don't think that editor should be allowed to continue to cause problems on multiple articles, especially when they are unhappy. They are also wasting a lot of my time explaining to them the content they want included fails verification. If it weren't for me the heat-not-burn tobacco product article would still be a train wreck. QuackGuru (talk) 02:34, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru, if you have general issues to take with my editing, you can post them to my talk page. I've copied these here. I found the discussion on Sarah at PMI's page because you pinged me (thank you! I do appreciate pings on matters likely to be of interest to me), and going through that I've just found you quoted these comments on Sunrise's talk page. Let's discuss this here rather than on the talk pages of third parties; feel free to ping anyone whose presence you feel would be helpful. If you have any other comments elsewhere, feel free to copy them here, too.

First off, I should say that while I'm sometimes a bit frustrated or unhappy with specific things that happen on Wikipedia, I don't think this presents significant risks to my mental health. I have never been involved in any substantive endeavor, no matter how rewarding, without experiencing some frustration and unhappiness. I'd be worried about my mental health if I couldn't take life's little problems in stride, or if nothing made me frustrated or unhappy anymore. Thank you for your concern, but I don't think you need to worry about causing me significant mental pain. I have been trying to deal with some of these problems by explaining them to you, because this is something I have found often helps with social problems. I know that, in some social and cultural contexts, directly discussing problems is a pretty desperate resort, one step short of completely losing all rationality, but I did not raise these issues in that spirit. I think mentioning problems early on makes them easier to resolve. I've tried to be polite and specific; if there is any other information you'd like about what is frustrating me, please ask.

We have had some disagreements about which statements can be verified for which sources, and whether certain images are relevant. I have been acting in good faith. Sometimes my reasoning has been wrong, and often you've disagreed with my reasoning, but I've been trying to imporve the encyclopedia (and follow policy, since I find it's generally a great help in that effort). I do strongly regret the amount of time we've spent unproductively in conflict with one another, and I will put effort into reducing it.

You speak of an "idealised form of anti-tobacco"; could you give more detail? While I do take the view that smoking tobacco is unhealthy, I think that is verifiable. Certainly I have cited sources that are anti-tobacco, but that's most MEDRS. Can you explain, in general terms, how I've idealized beyond the balance of reliable sources?

I am really not against you; I'm just in favour of including some content which you do not want to include, and (to a lesser extent, I think) vice-versa. I'm not clear on how proposing all edits on talkpages first would help resolve our disagreements, even if we both did it. How do you think this would help reach consensus? I'm afraid that I think that this topic is contentious, as I think is rather implied if it is under discretionary sanctions.

I'm not sure I have any really constructive new suggestions to make here. Perhaps you could outline some general principles that you think account for our differing interpretations of the guidelines? Or anything else you think might be helpful? HLHJ (talk) 04:42, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

You had trouble acknowledging the content failed verification. See Talk:Electric_smoking_system/Archive_4#Pipe. Please explain the problems with your edits and the discussion. I wrote "You modified it but it still fails verification. If you disagree please provide verification. QuackGuru (talk) 19:50, 4 January 2019 (UTC)" That were still problems but you left the problems in the article and did not respond to my concerns with the continued problems. If you still disagree then you can provide verification for the content.

You added an image of a pizza that was unrelated to the article.[8] Do you acknowledge that you were wrong and the image was completely unrelated to the topic? If you disagree there is a RfC for the pizza image. QuackGuru (talk) 15:09, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Let's stick to general principles illustrated by specific examples, QuackGuru. You have very frequently tagged content I have written as failed-verification. On occasion I have agreed and fixed it, but mostly I have disagreed. The reasons for disagreement have varied. Sometimes adding a "quote=" parameter to my citation has been enough to resolve it, although in those cases you have sometimes later removed the quotes from the citations on the grounds that they are biassed or unnecessary. Sometimes you have wanted me to repeat the citation in the middle of or at the end of each sentence rather then applying it to two or more succeeding sentences. I do not think this is necessary, but I have sometimes done it to avoid argument. Often, disagreements have been semantic. In this case, you disagreed with my describing a device that pyrolyses loose dried leaves put inside it so that the user can inhale the smoke as a "pipe". I tagged the phrase you objected to, but never got around to chasing down a source explicitly using the succinct term. We've also disagreed on whether inaccurately labelling e-fluid as "nicotine-free" or selling it with lollipops or stickers are marketing methods, and many similar disagreements (I actually found a source explicitly stating that that labelling was a form of marketing; as I recall, you had already removed the statement, and did not respond). Often I have rephrased even when I don't agree with your interpretation, just to resolve the argument. Sometimes you have then complained that my phrasings were too close to the source and constituted copyvio.

It takes a lot more time to make these changes than it does to add an "fv" tag. It often seems that satisfying your tag-criticisms is a never-ending task, and an unrewarding one. Where I disagree with your reasoning, the work seems unnecessary to me. When the end result is the same as before your tag, it also seems utterly futile, which is much worse. This has made me increasingly reluctant to engage with your tags. I've attempted to QuackGuru-proof my citations by adding quotes in advance, translating quotes from French and German, and sometimes even by repeating citations successively. This does not seem to have helped much, and you deleted all my translations, which took me hours to type up. I've asked if you can give me any algorithm by which I could ensure that you will consider my citations correct. I know we don't always agree on interpretations of guidelines, but I think we'd have less conflict if I understood your interpretation well enough to anticipate your objections.

The current article is almost entirely as you drafted it. What problems are there with it for which I am responsible?

The image of the pizza hasn't been in the article for months, has it? Again, I'm not sure why you suddenly start RfCs on topics no-one has recently discussed. I've already explained in detail why I think the image is related to the topic.

I'm finding phrasings like "Do you acknowledge that you were wrong" a bit difficult. You use them for situations where I have given my reasons in detail; they are therefore essentially a flat contradiction without arguments. I may be being oversensitive here, but they also feel a bit threatening.

I am willing to acknowledge that I was wrong when I become convinced of it; you have seen me do this. You are welcome to try and persuade me, but I think you will generally be more likely to meet with success if you rely on logos and ethos arguments. Like most people, I dislike thinking that I was wrong; I try to compensate for this bias. I'd like to think that I will be just as quick to recognise my errors in a confrontational environment as in a friendly one. It should not make a difference to the merits of the argument. However, I know that people don't usually act that way, and I am probably not any sort of magical exception. I will try to acknowledge my faults irrespective of your tone. However, if you can be factual and non-threatening, it will generally help me and others acknowledge our faults. Unfortunately, reactance is a human trait to which we are all subject. HLHJ (talk) 01:38, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Copied from User talk:Sarah at PMI#Please be careful, posted before the preceeding post:

You have refused to acknowledge there is any problems with the examples presented above. You are wasting my time. I am busy gathering diffs in my e-mail folder just in case. WHO does not call them cigarettes. This is more evidence. Good luck. QuackGuru (talk) 07:10, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I assume, apologies if I am incorrect, that you are gathering diffs in order to begin some sort of administrative process against me. I will of course participate in whatever way I am expected to; please let me know. HLHJ (talk) 01:38, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Forgot to ping. QuackGuru, could you please let me know? HLHJ (talk) 05:42, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

False claim on talk page?

WHO does not call them simply "cigarettes".[9] Please quote WHO or please stop. Also you have not acknowledged you added MEDRS violations. Please read the comments by Seppi333 again. QuackGuru (talk) 08:05, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I see you've started a WHO-claim RfC. I think this may be a bit premature, but I'll discuss the truth of this claim there if others also think it inaccurate. Whether certain sources are MEDRS or not is also something we can discuss on the article talk page; Seppi333 did not actually comment on MEDRS, but on the information in one of the sources in an area of Seppi333's expertise. I'd like to follow up on that comment, but the content is currently not in the article and I have a lot of other things to do. If I get around to it I'll discuss it as needed on the talk page.

I think the article talk page is a good place to discuss specific edits to an article, while my page is a good place to discuss me and my actions, or notify me of things happening elsewhere. I'll locate my responses accordingly. HLHJ (talk) 00:10, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

You claimed, the WHO also calls them "cigarettes"[10] You added it to the article before. See World Health Organization calls them "cigarettes".[11] That is misrepresenting the source and you fail to acknowledge it. The WHO actually said "some make use of specifically designed cigarettes to contain the tobacco for heating".[12] Therefore, it is clear the WHO is not stating they are actually "cigarettes". They are saying there are specifically designed cigarettes that "some" use. That is very different than a regular "cigarette". Therefore, it is misleading and a false statement. This has to do with your edits and actions. You have not acknowledged there is a problem with the edit and the comment. QuackGuru (talk) 00:41, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

We disagree in our interpretation of the souce. I think my actions with respect to only one specific article and its talk page can best be discussed there. I will discuss this on the article talk page if third parties are also interested in discussing it. HLHJ (talk) 04:58, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

WHO does not claim they are "cigarettes". Do you know the difference between a "cigarette" and a specifically designed cigarette that "some" use? Please read the article cigarette. Do you agree they are not a cigarette. QuackGuru (talk) 11:37, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

The source does not verify the claim. See diff. We have been through this before. Misrepresenting sources has to do with behavior or competence. QuackGuru (talk) 11:37, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

I've replied at the RfC. HLHJ (talk) 05:39, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

I will try not to use ambiguous referents again while communicating with you, QuackGuru. If I use ambiguous referents which put you in doubt as to my meaning, please ask me to clarify. HLHJ (talk) 15:14, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

On the talk page after others disagreed with you stated "I think this edit of mine needed a complete re-write, and I am not defending it."

But on your talk page when it was only me disagreeing with you stated "We disagree in our interpretation of the souce. I think my actions with respect to only one specific article and its talk page can best be discussed there. I will discuss this on the article talk page if third parties are also interested in discussing it."[13] You were defending it on your talk page when only one editor disagreed with you. If you believed WHO was making that claim then why the sudden reversal. It looks like you changed you mind when others pointed out you were wrong. When only one editor pointed out a problem you did not acknowledge there was a problem. QuackGuru (talk) 13:10, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

I think you have misunderstood me, QuackGuru, and we obviously still disagree. I think that "cigarettes" is a hypernym of "specially designed cigarette", and my careless "them" in a talk page comment was not intended to refer to these devices, and a refusal to discuss an edit long removed from an article is not a defense of it. HLHJ (talk) 15:02, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

DS alert

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have shown interest in the Electronic cigarette topic area. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

For additional information, please see the guidance on discretionary sanctions and the Arbitration Committee's decision here. If you have any questions, or any doubts regarding what edits are appropriate, you are welcome to discuss them with me or any other editor.

QuackGuru (talk) 07:41, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi, QuackGuru. You actually already notified me of this at User talk:HLHJ#Alert above. HLHJ (talk) 23:43, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Alerts last only for one year. QuackGuru (talk) 23:45, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't know that, or had forgotten. HLHJ (talk) 05:31, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

E-cig marketing page

This discussion is entirely about a specific article and I am therefore moving it to Talk:Marketing of electronic cigarettes#Discusssion moved from User talk:HLHJ. All further comments should be made there; this section is closed, and nothing more should be added to it. HLHJ (talk) 14:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

I have been patient for over a year. If you want me to fix the pollution in mainspace I expect you to redirect it. QuackGuru (talk) 05:10, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't understand that. You expect me to turn Marketing of electronic cigarettes into a redirect if I want you to fix what, exactly?

I'm also sorry not to have fixed everything you wanted me to fix. I'm afraid that addressing every issue you raise would take more time than I can spend editing. In the past, when I've spent more time, you've tagged and debated and requested more things, so the more time I work on it, the longer the list of tasks gets. It frustrates me too. HLHJ (talk) 05:37, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Please collaborate and help fix the issues or support a redirect. After it is redirected the content won't be lost. I can fix it and rewrite it. But when I make a small change and you revert you are not helping fixing the problems. You are causing the problems when you don't let me fix the high level of pollution. You know I can write mass content. See a few e-cig subpages I edited. For example, over 95% of the content I wrote alone for this page. You are blocking me from improving the Marketing of electronic cigarettes page. Either collaborate or move on and support a redirect is the best option IMO. It only takes me a few weeks to create a massive article from scratch. I'm not going to waste my time when you are getting in my way. QuackGuru (talk) 01:38, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru, I went and started working on that article. The first inline tag in that article was a demand for a page number for a 13-page document with a lot of whitespace. I fixed. I went on to fix more inline tags. As I was working, you cane and started adding more inline tags, thus edit-conflicting me. I can't remember how many inline tags which you have put in articles I've worked to resolve; certainly many dozens. A lot of them, like the 13-page one, seem like a waste of time to me. The edit (and the pervious one) you link to are not plain reverts; I was directly fixing the problems for which you removed the text, restoring the fixed text, and adding more new content. I really am trying to collaborate. If you can try not to cause needless frustrations, by looking up page numbers where you really think them necessary, and postponing re-tagging for long enough not to cause me to have to merge edits by hand, it would save me a lot of time. HLHJ (talk) 02:41, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

They were not plain reverts, but they did not fix the issues. There are more problems now.

See "The marketing of electronic cigarettes is legal in some jurisdictions,[1]:10 and spending on e-cigarette marketing is increasing rapidly.[2][3]" The part "some jurisdictions" makes no sense. "spending on e-cigarette marketing is increasing rapidly" is inaccurate. The first sentence should be an introductory to the topic. I would delete the current first sentence and rewrite it. QuackGuru (talk) 02:49, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru, I fixed some tags, you add two more inline tags, one of them a problem that I was fixing when the addition of the tag edit-conflicted, the other questioning whether the WHO's statement that a marketing claim was both common and inaccurate was relevant to the Marketing of electronic cigarettes article. Then you post a complaint that I've added more problems to the article to the talk page, and link it from my talk page. Can you see why this does not encourage collaboration? HLHJ (talk) 02:57, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

See "Marketing often claims that e-cigarettes emit only water vapour." This is duplication. See "The assertion that e-cigarette emit "only water vapor" is false..." See "e-cigarette use exposes bystanders to a number of toxicants" is unrelated to marketing. QuackGuru (talk) 03:01, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru, I can see the tags. I was fixing the duplications. I made one edit, stating in the edit summary that it was a first step towards fixing the duplications, and you seem to have reverted it, thus edit-conflicting the second step. You say, above, "I'm not going to waste my time when you are getting in my way". Can you see why your actions feel inconsiderate of my time? I'm taking a break. HLHJ (talk) 03:18, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Recap. See "The marketing of electronic cigarettes is legal in some jurisdictions,[1]:10 and spending on e-cigarette marketing is increasing rapidly.[2][3]" The part "some jurisdictions" is misleading and inaccurate. The part "spending on e-cigarette marketing is increasing rapidly." is also inaccurate and both sources[2][3] are making very different claims.

See "Marketing often claims that e-cigarettes emit only water vapour." This is duplication of the following sentence. See "The assertion that e-cigarette emit "only water vapor" is false..."

See "e-cigarette use exposes bystanders to a number of toxicants" is not about marketing.

See "E-cigarettes and nicotine are regularly promoted as safe and beneficial in the media and on brand websites.[4][clarification needed]" Also see "Marketing claims that e-cigarettes are harmless, or even beneficial, to the user[duplication?][4]" The same source is being used for making similar claims and both claims are misleading. The source used the word "concerning". That is an entirely different meaning than the claims made in the article.

See WP:COPYWITHIN. Do you agree to abide by WP:COPYWITHIN and fix the issues with copying within Wikipedia. The Marketing of electronic cigarettes page continues to violate WP:COPYWITHIN for over a year. Attribution is required for copyright. See WP:ATTREQ. Content was copied from the electronic cigarette page and other pages without following WP:COPYWITHIN. This means attribution is also required on the talk page. QuackGuru (talk) 13:42, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Nicotine marketing page

See Talk:Nicotine_marketing#Electronic cigarette section.

See Talk:Nicotine_marketing#Both sources make entirely different claims.

See Talk:Nicotine_marketing#The content is making a broader claim than the source.

There are problems with the content. Please help improve the wording or you may consider deleting the content. QuackGuru (talk) 13:42, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Withdrawn RfC

Please do not move my comments. You can open a new RfC rather than reopening a withdrawn RfC. The original RfC does not ask where the content should be placed. Therefore, it is irrelevant to restart it. The original question is no longer relevant.[14] QuackGuru (talk) 13:50, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Replied at Talk:Electric smoking system#Extended discussion on IQOS content RfC closure. HLHJ (talk) 14:53, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

See "I wish to re-open this RfC, as both I and Peter K Burian were discussing the placement of the text, which is still under dispute."[15] I did not see you or Peter K Burian discussing the placement of the content in the Electric_smoking_system#Addiction_and_quitting section or any other section except for the IQOS section. QuackGuru (talk) 15:56, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

You're right, I discussed the desirability of putting it in the IQOS section, Peter K Burian just suggested additional broader-topic content inclusion. Struck. HLHJ (talk) 23:59, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

You've had your say. Please don't WP:Bludgeon. I took the liberty of moving your comment to the discussion section since it was not a real vote. QuackGuru (talk) 00:35, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

This section is entirely about a single article. All further replies will therefore be to Talk:Electric smoking system. HLHJ (talk) 02:24, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

The section you commented in is for voting. Stating boycott is not a vote. You can move your comment to the discussion section. QuackGuru (talk) 02:30, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

What does this edit have to do with improving the article in accordance with Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines? QuackGuru (talk) 03:20, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru, when an editor tells you that further comments belong at the article's talk page, instead of on their user talk page, then you should not keep posting at that editor's user talk page. Moving such comments to the talk page is a best practice. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:37, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Slow editing warring?

See Revision as of 18:44, 15 June 2019, you added "pyrolyzes tobacco."[16]

See Revision as of 17:04, 22 June 2019, you restored "pyrolyses tobacco"[17] See diff and this diff. That was shocking you tried to add it to the first sentence of the IQOS section. QuackGuru (talk) 20:33, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Apologies, I had completely forgotten that, for all it wasn't that long ago. It's all beginning to blur. I don't actually think it's shocking that the first sentence of a section describes what the thing is, and not who released it when, tho; I think it's a good idea. I believe I tried to implement it for all the product-specific sections, which may be why I didn't remember this particular case.

QuackGuru, could I ask you to please discuss the timing, and attempt to reach a consensus on the question to be asked, before starting any more RfCs? I have been spending all the time I can reasonably spare attempting to respond to them, but I'm barely keeping up, and my responses are not as well-thought-out as I would like.

I feel as if any edit I make is met by a hostile response from you; and if I don't edit in response to you, you are angry at me for that. I'd really rather focus on content than personal conflict. In future, if you feel I've violated a rule, could you please tell me about it in a non-confrontational manner? We're neither of us perfect, but stone-throwing does not help either of us build good content. HLHJ (talk) 14:43, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

After over a year of what I think are policy violations, how long do you need before I start the next round of RfCs for these two sections? Another year should not pass by. QuackGuru (talk) 15:22, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been away for a bit; real life. I'd like to try and stick with one RfC at a time. I've re-opened one RfC at the IQOS-and-co article, because I think resolving that one will go a long way towards resolving the other disputes. I see you've removed the content you linked to in your post above; I'll discuss that there as soon as I can. HLHJ (talk) 03:21, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Formal processes

QuackGuru, I followed a link to User talk:Redrose64#Disputes for over a year. You wrote: "If this went to one of the drama boards things would resolve much quicker and there may not be any need for anymore RfCs. That's because an admin may show them the door. These articles are under DS. Editors being on there best behavior is not an option." I take it that I was meant. It would not be the first time you have spoken of taking formal actions in relation to me, though as far as I know you have not taken any.

If you think that I am behaving so badly that I would be banned, by all means bring the matter to my attention, and if you feel my response is inadequate, take formal action against me. Criticizing me in a forum where I can see and learn from your criticisms, including one in which other editors judge my actions, may improve my editing. Please don't criticize me to third parties without identifying me and pinging me, or repeatedly suggest sanctions you are not willing to pursue. HLHJ (talk) 03:21, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Violation of consensus and violation of RfC

This discussion is entirely about a specific article and I have therefore moved it with the moved-to template. For clarity, all further comments should be made there; this section is closed, and nothing more should be added to it. HLHJ (talk) 04:18, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru, was the above paragraph unclear? I've removed the "on Marketing of electronic cigarettes" you added to the section title, as it breaks the moved-from links, and you added another section header anyway. HLHJ (talk) 04:33, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

This edit was a violation of consensus and a violation of the RfC. QuackGuru (talk) 02:57, 4 August 2019 (UTC) "

Moved to Talk:Marketing of electronic cigarettes § Violation of consensus and violation of RfC

 – HLHJ (talk) 03:17, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 246#Online resource published by the Stanford Research Into the Impact of Tobacco Advertising (SRITA) research group. It did not find it to be a reliable secondary source. It appears they are a collection of WP:primary sources. QuackGuru (talk)

This is also off-topic. QuackGuru (talk) 03:59, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Violation of consensus on Nicotine marketing

This edit was a violation of talk page consensus. There was a discussion on the text for caption. See Talk:Nicotine_marketing/Archive_3#Goody_two_shoes_image_caption. Do you agree to stop violating consensus? QuackGuru (talk) 04:24, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Moved to Talk:Nicotine marketing § Violation of consensus on Nicotine marketing

 – HLHJ (talk) 05:44, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Continued problems

Please keep in mind you were notified of the discretionary sanctions.[18] [19]

See "I'm sorry, QuackGuru, I don't want to be too down on you, but I didn't see anything really useful in your New Year's Day edits. Maybe you stayed up too late the night before?"[20] Do you agree to stop doing this sort of behavior?

You started a malformed RfC. See Talk:Electric_smoking_system/Archive_7 See WP:CIR.

You were edit warring against consensus.[21] You were warring against consensus again.[22]

The charred pizza image is largely unrelated to the article.[23] See RfC for pizza image.[24]

You added off-topic content.[25] You added off-topic content again. See Talk:Marketing of electronic cigarettes/Archive 1#Article scope..[26] You are repeating the same kind if mistakes again and again. Are you going to agree to abide by consensus and stop edit warring? QuackGuru (talk) 05:04, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

I apologize if my joke about New Year's offended you. I'm not sure what "this sort of behavior" is, from the link. I have acknowledged that I phrased that RFC poorly. If I've apologized, please drop it unless I repeat the offence. I'm not sure why you are unwilling to drop the pizza. I am doing my best to abide by consensus, not edit war, and verify statements; we disagree on how to do these things. HLHJ (talk) 05:44, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

You restarted a RfC. The closer stated "A split proposal should reasonably indicate what would be split, and to where." You did not specifically explain on the talk page what content would be split and to where it would be split. The article Vaporizer (inhalation device) is not about heat-not-burn-products and there already is content about eTron 3T in the e-cigarette article.

You are still supporting including the pizza image. You have not dropped it. I explained on the talk page your edits did not improve the Nicotine marketing article.[27]

You stated "Where "pyrolyse" is what is meant."[28] According to the discussion section your example would of replaced sourced content with failed verification.[29] See other RfCs such as Aerosol and smoke.[30] The word aerosol is a more general claim. You want to replace it with smoke throughout the article? QuackGuru (talk) 18:30, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for telling me about the splitting-article RfC closure, I had not seen it. I will look at the other RfC topics again later, but let's deal with the move request first (though I'd have preferred to discuss the split, then the name). HLHJ (talk) 04:27, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

The page was moved and the other RfCs were all closed. I will search for new sources and reviews. QuackGuru (talk) 15:55, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Loss of history for the "Marketing of electronic cigarettes" article

From User talk:QuackGuru:

Hi, QuackGuru. I've been away for a bit; could you please explain to me what happened at Electronic cigarette and e-cigarette liquid marketing? It looks like an heavily re-written version of the old Marketing of electronic cigarettes article, with the name re-scoped to match the content scope. Indeed, all of the titles that redirected to that article seem to redirect to the new article. However, the page has not been renamed; I cannot find the history of the old article anywhere. HLHJ (talk) 03:37, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

There was no re-written version of the old Marketing of electronic cigarettes article. I created a new article from scratch. There was consensus to redirect the article you created. You also copied content from the e-cig article. That content from the e-cig article was rewritten by a former smoker. Sourced content was replaced with failed verification content. I restored the sourced content recently. QuackGuru (talk) 09:13, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

The new marketing article is not a derivative of any other marketing article. The edit history of a redirected article should not be merged with a different article. The edit histories of different articles should not be spliced together. The talk page is used for improving the marketing article. Comments that are not about improving the article should not be posted on the talk page of the new marketing article. QuackGuru (talk) 13:05, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

OK, now I'm really confused. I thought I posted about this to the new article talk page, Talk:Electronic cigarette and e-cigarette liquid marketing, less than 24hrs ago (edit: a bit less than 12 hours, I think), and your comments seem like a reply to that post. I can't find my post now, though. May I ask to which post you are replying, QuackGuru? HLHJ (talk) 15:38, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Something strange has happened. I'm very sure that the Electronic cigarette and e-cigarette liquid marketing article and its talk page existed before the earliest timestamp shown on their histories, namely 13:31, 28 September 2019‎ and 13:29, 28 September 2019. That's less than three hours ago‎. I mean, I commented about the article on QuackGuru's talk page on the 20th. I would not have done that if it hadn't existed for another week. QuackGuru, do you know what happened? HLHJ (talk) 16:13, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

Did you post about improving the article or was it off-topic? Do you agree off-topic comments should not be posted on the article's topic page? QuackGuru (talk) 17:22, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that wasn't my query. Forget what I posted, my biggest question is where did the history go? HLHJ (talk) 17:35, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

It looks like the edit history was charred per ‎G8. QuackGuru (talk) 17:45, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. WP:G8 is for deleting "Pages dependent on a non-existent or deleted page". How could that make an article I saw on the 20th have no history prior to the 28th? How could it remove a comment (however off-topic) which I posted on the talk page of an extant article? I'm still mystified. Do you have a link to the deletion request, or any pertinent information? HLHJ (talk) 17:50, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

I think you answered your own question. You stated that WP:G8 is for deleting "Pages dependent on a non-existent or deleted page". QuackGuru (talk) 18:05, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

No, I'm sorry, I still don't understand. Above, you discuss an article which, according to its page history, did not exist until tens of minutes after your post was written. I top that bit of clairvoyance handily by discussing the article over a week before it comes into existence.

Much of the article and article talk page history must have been deleted. The new article has never been deleted, has it? If so, why has it been deleted and then restored, within ~a week (or a day, for the talk page), and why can't I find any reference to an undeletion request for it? HLHJ (talk) 18:20, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

QuackGuru, you reverted my notification of the above comment on your talk page with the edit message "Boring and silly questions. Who cares?". I assume that this means that you are unwilling to help me figure this out, and I will seek advice elsewhere. HLHJ (talk) 18:44, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

I've restored the history of the article and its talk page. QuackGuru, requesting deletion of the article only to create it again seems pointless. — JJMC89 (T·C) 22:34, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

OK, it was deleted per WP:G7, and re-created, apparently unchanged. I now understand what happened, if not why. Further discussion of history-splicing at Talk:Electronic cigarette and e-cigarette liquid marketing#Article re-write and disconnection from history. HLHJ (talk) 23:08, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

There are some redirects to the new article that are duplication or are too similar to other redirects and should be deleted.

You asked on the talk page "QG, could you please give a link to your draft?" There was not one draft. There were multiple drafts. The original draft with the initial marketing content was at User:QuackGuru/Sand3 back around 2016. There were drafts before that back in 2014 or 2015. It was part of the main e-cig article draft. The marketing content was too long then I eventually created a new draft. I don't remember what year it was. I created so many drafts. I didn't keep track. Why would you want a link to any draft?

Why would you want the history to merge? Is it because you want to restore content? If there was any content worth saving I would of added it. If you check the edit history it states content was copied from the Electronic cigarette article.

There was no splicing or any derivative of any other marketing article. You did not create the new marketing article. QuackGuru (talk) 01:22, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Replied at Talk:Electronic cigarette and e-cigarette liquid marketing#Article re-write and disconnection from history. HLHJ (talk) 03:12, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

You did not reply to my questions: Why would you want a link to any draft? Why would you want the history to merge? Is it because you want to restore content? QuackGuru (talk) 03:34, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Replied at Talk:Electronic cigarette and e-cigarette liquid marketing#Article re-write and disconnection from history. HLHJ (talk) 03:39, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

You commented at the talk page but have not directly responded the questions? Why? Why do you want a link to any draft? Do you want to restore content? Restoring disputed content would be against consensus. QuackGuru (talk) 04:01, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

I gave two reasons why. The consensus was not against merging content. Please make future comments on this on the article talk page, and do not make further comments here. HLHJ (talk) 04:10, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Do not redirect species to genera articles

Please do not redirect species to genera. All species deserve an article and the only reason to redirect is if the genus is monotypic. Since Berardius had two species already, Berardius minimus needed its own article. Abductive (reasoning) 08:41, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, Abductive. Replied and pinged at Talk:Giant beaked whale#Untitled. HLHJ (talk) 21:05, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Allegations without supporting evidence

You have made a series of allegations without supporting evidence. Please strike your comments. Please keep in mind that you have been informed of the discretionary sanctions in this topic area. QuackGuru (talk) 22:32, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

You did not strike all your allegations against me. Do you stand by your comments? QuackGuru (talk) 22:56, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm sorry we are still in conflict, QuackGuru. I don't want to make unfounded or unhelpful allegations. I put a lot of work into that comment, and I was careful to phrase most of what I said as "it seems" or "I feel", and link to examples. While your complaint is very general, I've gone over my post again and modified, with strikes and underlines, anything I think you might still object to on factual grounds. If I have missed anything, or if you just feel that some of what I have said is unfair, please specify your objections at there, rather than here, and ping me, I will do my best to respond promptly. I don't know how discretionary sanctions would apply re my post; you could also detail that there. HLHJ (talk) 23:03, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Image without license

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See technical difficulties. HLHJ (talk) 02:57, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Fixed. HLHJ (talk) 03:32, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

File:SA Sturm Cigarette Company ad.jpg

Hi HLHJ. Please provide a separate specific non-free use rationale for each use of this file as required by WP:NFCC#10c. I understand that combining multiple uses into a single non-free use rationale like you did might seem OK, but it makes it much easier to assess individual non-free uses (for both humans and WP:BOTs) when separate non-free use rationales are provided for each. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:29, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi, Marchjuly. I hastily put the illustration in a couple of articles without thinking that I needed additional rationales. Obviously I do; apologies. I've added this information to the page, but I couldn't figure out a rational way to fit it into the templates. When I figure out how to format it nicely, I will. Thank you for the heads-up. HLHJ (talk) 16:02, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Begoon kindly fixed the formatting for me. Thanks, Begoon! HLHJ (talk) 17:27, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Just for reference, non-free use is kind of expected to be for exceptional cases; this doesn't necessarily mean a non-free file can only be used once, but additional uses tend to need to be more exceptional. So, if you're basically using the same non-free use rationale to try and justify what is essentially the same non-free usage in different articles, then perhaps the additional uses aren't so exceptional. Simply copying and pasting or paraphrasing content/sources from one article where the file is being used into other articles so that the same file can also be used in them isn't really good from a general encyclopedic standpoint and a non-free content use standpoint. That is why things like item 6 of WP:NFC#UUI seem to have been added to the relevant guidelines. I'm only mentioning this because the non-free use in Sturmabteilung seems a bit iffy, in my opinion, given the two basic sentences on the advertising appearing in that section. As you start to use a non-free file more and more, it may be questioned as to whether using the file actually improves the reader's understanding to such a degree that removing it will be detrimental to that understanding per WP:NFC#CS and whether an alternative means, such as a link to other articles, where the same file can be seen is sufficient per WP:FREER. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:29, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I rarely use non-free media, and I probably wouldn't have done all this had I not previously uploaded and used the image under a misapprehension that it was PD. Looking at it now, I'd agree that the Sturmabteilung image use is iffy; the not-very-visual financial aspect is the most important in that context. If you would like to remove it, Marchjuly, go ahead. HLHJ (talk) 01:04, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Last attempt

Hi, a long time ago we worked on Southern_Ocean_Waters but we never finished it. I would love to finish it and have contacted you a few times regarding this.
This will be my last attempt to get it finished, after this I will not bother you again.
So just tell me if you want to finish it or not, thanks. Please ping me. --Goran tek-en (talk) 16:14, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Strange essay

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Contort_the_citations&action=history What is this nonsense? QuackGuru (talk) 19:36, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

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Google Code-In 2019 is coming - please mentor some documentation tasks!

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DYK nomination of Toebox

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A cup of coffee for you!

For working hard to improve Riyadh International Book Fair, have a cuppa on the AfC team. Very few editors help out with abandoned drafts, so your help is greatly appreciated. Keep up the good work! Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 19:19, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, CaptainEek! Seeing the page up in the mainspace was a pleasant surprise. The work was interesting, I learned a lot about a subject I previously knew literally nothing about, and a lot about interactions between Wikipedia's cultural structure and available sourcing, including coming up against sources of systemic bias that are outside of Wikipedians' control... I wonder if there is a way to get more editors involved in drafts? Automatic redirects from article to draftspace for logged-in editors? I'll think about it. HLHJ (talk) 06:43, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

DYK for Mariä Krönung (Lautenbach)

On 14 January 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Mariä Krönung (Lautenbach), which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the Mariä Krönung pilgrimage church in Lautenbach (interior pictured) retains original Gothic features, such as the high altar and fused stained-glass windows? You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Mariä Krönung (Lautenbach)), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 00:01, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Nocturnes

14 February

Alte Liebe

Thank you for improving Nocturnes (Debussy) while the principal author is sadly blocked, and a late "Valentine" to good relations ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:56, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Today's Alte Liebe became especially meaningful after yesterday's funeral. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:30, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Gerda Arendt. That sounds like an interesting book. May I ask who has died? HLHJ (talk) 16:03, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, but I won't give name and relation. I picture the church, list the psalm, song played, songs sung, - and I was there. That will have to be enough. What I wanted to say as shortly as possible is that I was absent, and in no mood for trivia. The song played has more to do with who died than the book, but the decade of marriage is closer in the book than in the song. Enough puzzle pieces I hope. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:56, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I asked thinking I might know them, not at all wishing to press. My condolences, Gerda Arendt. Across cultures, funerals hold closely to art, from beautiful spaces to music and readings. Surely we do this for the comfort and grace they give to our memories; and perhaps because a life or a marriage lived are also beautiful works. HLHJ (talk) 17:33, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

You said that well! - The ones you might know are in this list. I was at one of the funerals, two more are relatives but the funerals were too far away, and with 14 more of them I was in one room, including Jacques Loussier, Michael Gielen and Pierre Boulez. For more private memories, see here, - I took 14 of the images. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:21, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Rosemary, for remembrance

Thank you, Gerda Arendt. I like the title "Memories", it fits. The page has some of the evocative feel of a commonplace book: a stream of ideas, linked by the unseen memories of the person recording them. Some art gives that sense, too, like In Memoriam; a tenor of mind. HLHJ (talk) 22:43, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Lovely thoughts and rosemary, thank you. The memories begin at the bottom, with the oldest, and only what really went to DYK ;) - On top are choir-related memories, choirs in the order of recent activity. Plans are also there, see, with March especially rich? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:50, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I am impressed by your level of organization, Gerda Arendt. "Winterling" is a fine name for a flower, like dryas or windflower. I recall singing Mendelssohn's Verleih uns Frieden for a peace service. It's a beautiful piece; I should try to find a freely-licensed recording. I must go offline now, I'm afraid. My best wishes. HLHJ (talk) 23:51, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Good morning, - I was offline already. Writing Verleih uns Frieden was meant as a prayer for peace, - thank you for understanding. Watch my talk: March to begin ;) - A friend who was banned told me that left images make problems, and I think of him every time I move one to the right, as just now, - also when I see an article for which he helped with the references, such as today's featured article, or when I bring a flower greeting, for which he designed the frame. Which brings us back to sadly missed Chuckstreet. Yes, I have those also organized, with his lead image ;) - He was despised. Verleih uns Frieden. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:12, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Good morning, Gerda Arendt. Left images do make it harder to judge the display on mobiles, and the indents are much nicer now it's the other side; thanks! A newer editor recently asked how many editors leave due to negative experiences here. I didn't know; I've never seen any attempt to estimate it; your list is the most systematic survey I've seen. I suspect that most of the editors we scare off only make a few edits; if all of a newbies' first-session edits are rejected, their chances of becoming regular editors drop from three-in-five to one-in-five (sources and more stats). That is excluding vandals and anyone not trying to contribute productively. So maybe 70% of editors leave due to rejection? Maybe more? Perhaps we need more systematic efforts to teach social skills. HLHJ (talk) 16:05, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

There's a project editor retention, DYK? Sadly, some of those marked "returned" are gone again. The single-most effective remedy would be assuming good faith more often. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:06, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I've been by there occasionally. Maybe we need some aids to good faith; text-only text channels make misinterpretation so easy... HLHJ (talk) 02:35, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: I noticed my ping to this discussion earlier but couldn't think of anything to add to the discussion then. Now, however, I noticed a thread on wikimedia-I about m:Grants:Project/Community Health Metrics: Understanding Editor Drop-off which is relevant to my question about editors leaving Wikipedia. Any thoughts? Clovermoss (talk) 04:09, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Copyeditor's Barnstar
	Thank you for the Heroic copyediting work on climate sensitivity -- you have taken a well researched, but really hard to read article, into something useful for a broader audience -- thank you so much. Sadads (talk) 15:08, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Sadads! I wish all heroism was that easy . I really ought to have some expertise in STEM communication by now, but I don't really use it on-wiki as I might; feel free to ping me if I can use it. HLHJ (talk) 16:25, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Moss lawn

I started a stub for Moss lawn. I hope you don't mind that I've done so. It's just that I like moss and wanted to learn more about moss lawns. I thought starting something to eventually expand upon was a good idea. Clovermoss (talk) 17:29, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Not at all, I'm glad you did, Clovermoss. Ars longua, vita brevis; I will never have time to do all I wish to do, nor will I run out of interesting topics. You might be interested in Saihō-ji (Kyoto), a very famous moss-lawn garden with a lot of information about it online. Contrary to many sources, moss lawns are drought-resistant once established, and exist in natural environments where it is too shady and arid for grass. Their physiology is fascinating. I can hunt you some sources on this, I've got some notes somewhere. HLHJ (talk) 17:50, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I placed a hold at my local library for a book devoted to moss lawns, I hope it'll be useful. One of the sources did mention that moss gardens were drought-resistant once established, so I should probably mention that. And yes, more sources would be wonderful! When it comes to moss gardens...would you say they are the same thing as moss lawns, or different yet related subjects? Clovermoss (talk) 17:58, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

@Clovermoss: Hmm. A moss garden generally contains a moss lawn, but it might also grow moss on vertical surfaces, or in a small bowl. I'd be willing to call this a lawn, as the actual content would overlap pretty much entirely, and people call things camomile lawns even when they are vertical or placed in a non-walkable position. List of moss gardens would certainly be a suitable list article, so maybe that, with a lede description mentioning and wikilinking moss lawns, would be the best solution. HLHJ (talk) 18:10, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Proposal to streamline the welcome template

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Proposal to streamline the welcome template. Sdkb (talk) 21:46, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

DYK for Shōji

On 2 March 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Shōji, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that shōji (examples pictured), like other traditional Japanese partitions, serve as doors, windows, and walls, both interior and exterior? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Shōji. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Shōji), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Amakuru (talk) 00:01, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for bothering you, but...

New Page Patrol needs experienced volunteers

• New Page Patrol is currently struggling to keep up with the influx of new articles. We could use a few extra hands on deck if you think you can help.
• Reviewing/patrolling a page doesn't take much time but it requires a good understanding of Wikipedia policies and guidelines; Wikipedia needs experienced users to perform this task and there are precious few with the appropriate skills. Even a couple reviews a day can make a huge difference.
• If you would like to join the project and help out, please see the granting conditions and review our instructions page. You can apply for the user-right HERE. — Insertcleverphrasehere ^{(or here)}_{(click me!)} 19:56, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Special Barnstar
	For adding more than 20,000 bytes to Moss lawn! You're amazing and I felt that one of the ways I could show my appreciation would be to give you a special barnstar. :) Clovermoss (talk) 14:21, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Clovermoss! I didn't intend to add so much, but it was interesting . Thank you for starting the article; I wouldn't have written anything otherwise. HLHJ (talk) 20:26, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the thanks! But I only really started the article because you mentioned it on my talk page and the idea appealed to me... so this just goes back to me thanking you again and the inherently collaborative nature of Wikipedia. Clovermoss (talk) 22:04, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Kambo

I'm posting here instead of at DYK because the DYK page is long enough already :p Courtesy ping for OneUpOnUs. I've seen the recent comments on the DYK nom and I've been thinking about how to respond for a few days. The gist of my thoughts is that I'm not sure the article is ready for the main page at this point in time. I know this is strange for me to say since I'm the one who suggested the creator nominate it for DYK in the first place, but I think I got ahead of myself in wanting to encourage a promising new editor and didn't give proper consideration to MEDRS, NPOV, etc. The article is certainly much improved from its original state - mostly thanks to you! - but I still have some concerns, mainly over the reliance on the Frontiers source, which I think is okay to use in the absence of better sources, but which I'm not entirely comfortable showcasing on the Main Page. I want to reiterate again that I'm very thankful for your assistance with this article and especially your diplomatic comments on the talk page, which I found admirable, and instructive as someone who generally tries to avoid conflict on here... And apologies to OneUpOnUs for the mess this has turned into, which is mostly my fault :) But I thought I would raise this issue here before commenting further so we can develop a consensus. SpicyMilkBoy (talk) 17:40, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

It is rather long; we should probably copy this to Talk:Kambo cleanse for the record. I can see your point on the nom. The state of human knowledge on this topic is unsatisfactory . It should improve, though, and the article we have is a substantial improvement over nothing; it's averaging a couple hundred daily pageviews, so it's obviously being used. I value DYK more for the experience than the actual front-page display, and have no objections to the nomination being withdrawn if others agree (suspending DYK nominations seems to have some time limits; I haven't seen suspensions of over a year). OneUpOnUs, I'd assumed you were an experienced editor; one up on me. You have rather landed in the deep end, but it seems you can swim. SpicyMilkBoy, you did all the difficult trawling through unsatisfactory MEDRS; thank you for that, and for your kind words. HLHJ (talk) 20:24, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

I probably shouldn't have called OneUpOnUs a new editor - their account is older than mine! But I noticed that they had written some impressive articles and hadn't gotten much recognition for it. I hope they keep up the good work. SpicyMilkBoy (talk) 20:33, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

I edited here on and off for (attempts to check record)... at least a year (maybe several) after I created an account before I got a message on my talk page (a welcome). Three years later, I got another post to my talk page; a notification that an article I'd written was to be deleted (quite rightly; non-notable software). It was over a decade before someone gave me a barnstar (indirectly triggered by a recommendation that I take an article to DYK). It didn't then occur to me to mind this ; honestly, I still don't. Recognition is nice, but tends to be caused by both doing good work and interacting with other editors. OneUpOnUs, I hope you will also find that your excellent editing is its own reward, and will not take a lack of recognition as implying a lack of merit. HLHJ (talk) 21:22, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks SpicyMilkBoy and HLHJ for the kind words, I do really appreciate them as well as the work you've both done to improve the article immensely over it's original form. I'm in the deep end but that's where I like to be. I think the area of pseudoscience is important enough to warrant the late nights and stress but perhaps I'll stay away from MEDRS until I do more research on it. I personally hold no stakes for the DYK nom but it would have been nice to see it happen, I guess we'll see if anyone else has some input. I look forward to working with you both in the future. OneUpOnUs (talk) 00:11, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

It's a very worthwhile task. I didn't meant to be discouraging or cause stress, OneUpOnUs; I think you're doing valuable (and difficult) work. On MEDRS, Wikipedia Talk:MED is a good place to go for examples, help and collaborators. I don't think anyone else is likely to see this discussion on my talk page: we'd have to link to it from the DYK discussion. I'll do that. HLHJ (talk) 03:50, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

I think that if there are concerns about MEDRS or other issues with regard to this nomination, it should probably be withdrawn. Reliable sourcing is important, and if the article is relying on one or more questionable sources, that's a problem. It seems like more participation from DYK editors in general is unlikely—it's taken nearly two weeks for anyone to comment here—so we should probably wrap up the nomination one way or the other, given that it's over three months old already, and the oldest extant nomination. Pinging HLHJ, OneUpOnUs, and SpicyMilkBoy, with thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 22:42, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

There is technically a new MEDRS out, but the COI is not optimal:

Keppel Hesselink, Jan M (January 2020). "Rediscovery of Ceruletide, a CCK Agonist, as an Analgesic Drug". Journal of Pain Research. Volume 13: 123–130. doi:10.2147/JPR.S232714. PMID 32021401. {{cite journal}}: |volume= has extra text (help)CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)

Thank you for commenting, BlueMoonset; I'd agree that it seems unlikely we'll get other responses. HLHJ (talk) 00:19, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

BlueMoonset I am okay with withdrawal per my concerns above. Narutolovehinata5 may also want to comment as I discussed this with her him briefly on Discord. SpicyMilkBoy (talk) 18:42, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

I think it should be okay to withdraw if there's really nothing else that can be done at this point. Also, I'm a guy ;) Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 22:34, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Oops, sorry - your Discord avatar misled me. :p SpicyMilkBoy (talk) 23:07, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Moved to Talk:Kambo cleanse

 – as nomination was withdrawn. Apologies to OneUpOnUs, and thank you for your hard work. HLHJ (talk) 04:18, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Takapūneke

Re the DYK nom, two things:

• There's a request for our discussion to be moved to the talk page. If you concur, I think this would be best done by you.
• If you are happy with the nomination at this point, it needs a tick of approval.

Thanks! Schwede66 20:09, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Replied on Talk:Takapūneke. HLHJ (talk) 00:54, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Your work on "Welcome to Wikipedia"

Hi! I just saw this. It is very impressive! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Wikipedia_editing_for_researchers,_scholars,_and_academics I also took a try at writing a "cheat sheet for medical editors" a few years ago and had a few experieneced WP:MED community members help polish it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:JenOttawa/Introduction_to_Medical_Editing:_Cheat_Sheet Please feel free to borrow anything that you wish for medical specific aspects! The more people who understand how Wikipedia works and who are interested in contributing to medical articles the better! I will add your resource to my list when sharing with new editors as well. Great work once again and good idea to share on the new editors talk page. JenOttawa (talk) 13:38, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, JenOttawa! That looks useful, sort of a list of links with a summary. I think a separate "medical experts" guide works well, and I can think of some places it would be good to to link it from... May I ask why you put it in your userspace? Wugapodes might say that both pages are help pages and belong in the "Help:" namespace. HLHJ (talk) 02:02, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi! Good question about the userspace. This is just where I drafted it. I can move it anywhere! I am open to suggestions and may need help moving it. If we can keep the edit history, even better, as many of our WP:MED colleagues helped revise. Thank you again! JenOttawa (talk) 14:50, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi, JenOttawa! It seems that the target audience is "new members with a background in medical science", so I'd suggest moving it to Help:Wikipedia editing for biomedical experts or similar, parallel to the other help pages at Wikipedia:Expert editors#Advice for new expert editors. I think retaining the edit history is mandated by policy, since we have to credit authors; I think if you just move it using the More>Move tab, there's a drop-down menu to change the namespace, and it moves the history along with the page, so that should work. HLHJ (talk) 15:12, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry to disappear here. My free time to contribute has been reduced, although thankfully, we are all healthy. I have moved it (my first Wikipedia move!) to Help:Wikipedia editing for medical experts. Thank you for your advice. Thank good care. JenOttawa (talk) 00:07, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

No worries, JenOttawa, I've not been around much either. Many people have more free time to contribute now; there have been a lot of people working on the medical articles people are currently viewing. I've linked to the newly-moved page as a see-also from the general academic help. Thank you again for writing it, I expect it will be helpful to the new editors joining up. Take care. HLHJ (talk) 01:44, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Riyadh

Thank you for the note on the protests: I've replied there. We're now 99.99% of the way to getting this venerable DYK done (at last!); do please look at what I've written near the foot of the DYK about Alt3a, and choose one of the options I provide, or very likely something better that I haven't thought of, and put it forward as Alt3b. Thanks! -- Hoary (talk) 01:55, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I saw this while I was composing a reply, which I began after the redlink post. I'm just slow... Your post made me realize that I nominated this on the winter solstice! Thank you for finally getting it moving, Hoary. I don't know which of the hooks you prefer, but I've given some alternatives. HLHJ (talk) 02:35, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Done! (May I pour you another one?) -- Hoary (talk) 03:49, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Hurrah! And only just past the equinox :). HLHJ (talk) 04:11, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Oh jeebus. It's commendable that you're marking contradictions where you notice them; but if I remember right a DYK article isn't supposed to have any maintenance tags, and if the presence of one is noted, this article might be condemned as needing further attention ... and who knows, the process might have a fourth or fifth mensiversary. So how about temporarily removing either factor in the apparent contradiction, trying to figure out a fact-based, non-contradictory solution, and, when you've got this, fixing the article accordingly? -- Hoary (talk) 07:31, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

That's how I felt. It seems that the Saudi government announced that the admission-time gender segregation would be lifted, and I naïvely took this to mean that it was lifted. The use of euphemisms to describe who is allowed in really doesn't aid rapid comprehension, either. Fixed; apologies, Hoary, for the oh-no moment. HLHJ (talk) 18:15, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

All's well now. (Incidentally, I expressed myself badly above: I'd intended not "how about temporarily removing either factor" [which suggests a cynical, arbitrary "fix"], but instead "how about temporarily removing both factors".)

As you know, I only arrived at that DYK nomination late in its long life; but even to me it seemed interminable. As did that of DYK/Teikō Shiotani. But yesterday both got approved: whew. Incidentally, I see that the latter was a QPQ for DYK/Photography of the Holocaust, the straightforwardness of whose approval process astounds me. -- Hoary (talk) 23:47, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

Honestly, I didn't even notice it could be interpreted like that, Hoary; it would have been a bit incompatible with "It's commendable". The nom would probably have been faster had I not been lamentably ignorant of the rather difficult topic; I made a lot of mistakes. Also, many people are understandably averse to complex reviews. HLHJ (talk) 02:02, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

DYK for Riyadh International Book Fair

On 2 April 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Riyadh International Book Fair, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was publishers have had their pre-approved books confiscated, or their stalls dismantled overnight, during the Riyadh International Book Fair? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Riyadh International Book Fair. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Riyadh International Book Fair), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Wug·a·po·des​ 01:11, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

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Another barnstar for you!

	The Barnstar of Good Humor
	Thank you for this all-too-accurate description. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:50, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, WhatamIdoing. I was in need of humour after wading through all those depressing examples of sometimes-lethal gullibility. An octogenarian insisting that he's protected by his anti-flu homeopathic medicine, mixtures of household chemicals that evolve poisonous gasses, hundreds dead in Iran after drinking methanol, apparently on the grounds that alcohol in hand sanitizers kills COVID-19... it's not unreasonable that people become more willing to grasp at straws when scared, but exploiting this instinct to try to get fearful people to snort cocaine is horrific. I hope the sheer length of the very incomplete catalogue prompts someone to think before passing some misinformation on. Probably I really need to write it in to all the little articles on cocaine, alcohol, homeopathy, and so on. Sorry, that really wasn't funny. HLHJ (talk) 18:56, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

It can be very discouraging. Twenty years ago, I was trying to get middle-aged and older people to run their e-mail messages through Snopes before forwarding them (everything was e-mail back then), and now that I'm middle-aged myself, it's still the same problem, only with hundreds of different ways to send the nonsense. Plus, we have a much stronger "media bubble" effect that results in people not realizing where the middle ground lies any longer. That makes it harder to see that the crazy stuff is completely crazy, rather than just a little odd.

It's hard, but at least you're doing something useful. People will be pointing at what you write to stop some of these e-mail/social media chains. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:37, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for the encouragement, WhatamIdoing. And when your elders were young, they were trying to get their elders to call the library reference desk before copying that chain letter... Some social media are now trying to use Wikipedia and Snopes and suchlike to make corrections outrun rumours. I have noticed systemic bias in refutation: the more educated the average person in the culture, the better and quicker the culture-bound-rumour refutations, and the higher they come in search results. Many rumours are spreading among those who do not have internet access or even literacy, and they are not getting much critical or even RS media coverage; MEDRS "nothing yet proven to be effective" statements are the most precise refutations available. On the upside, sheer experience is killing many COVID-19 rumours (you had a cure in April? really?) and making people more wary.

The WHO is now using less "no evidence"-style language, and more phrasing along the lines of "stuffing beans up your nose DOES NOT prevent or cure COVID-19", and "...but it is also beneficial for your general health to maintain a balanced diet, which may include eating some beans". HLHJ (talk) 03:45, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Takapūneke

HLHJ, I noticed that the nominator has finally returned to the nomination, but forgot to ping you, the reviewer, so I thought I'd let you know that it's ready for you to continue reviewing. Thanks for taking this one on. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:00, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Graph discussion

Your discussion regarding cumulative series got bit off topic to Graph:Chart template. Extension:Graph extension is bit separate issue to the template. Maybe you should clear up your section (eg. collapse JSON code). But back to the point: "invalidtext:[object Object]" is correct message because your JSON is not valid. Error is here on end of "data" section. It would not give valid graph anyway because your syntax is Vega-lite. Please try to define this graph in current Vega 5 syntax and I will try to "convert" it to Extension:Graph syntax (Vega 2). Usually I need to change "encoding" (Vega) to "properties" (Graph) in "marks" section, and change axis definition to be something like
axes": [ {"type":"x","format":"d", "scale": "x","orient":"bottom"}, {"type":"y","format":"d","scale": "y","orient":"left"} ],
It will be more less compatible both with Extension:Graph and Vega. Also I'm trying go to avoid or remove "signals". There is guide for porting Vega 2 (wiki Graph) to later Vega 5 here. To fit Vega 5 graphs to wiki Graph you need to "reverse" porting guide and avoid anything that was not implemented in Vega 2. Documentation for Vega 2 is here. I don't really details but it seems that violin graphs require kernel density estimation and kde transform was implemented in Vega 5.4 so I wouldn't expect it quickly in Extension:Graph. --Pietrasagh (talk) 14:36, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Pietrasagh. I will have a go at putting it in Vega2. I may not be very quick at it, but thank you very much for the information and resources. I've collapsed the code. HLHJ (talk) 14:47, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Tsubo-niwa

Hello, HLHJ. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Tsubo-niwa".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been nominated for deletion. If you plan on working on it further, or editing it to address the issues raised if it was declined, simply and remove the {{db-afc}}, {{db-draft}}, or {{db-g13}} code.

If your submission has already been deleted by the time you get there, and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion by following the instructions at this link. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia! JMHamo (talk) 09:40, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Tsubo-niwa has been accepted

Tsubo-niwa, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. Most new articles start out as Stub-Class or Start-Class and then attain higher grades as they develop over time. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the help desk. Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to create articles yourself without posting a request to Articles for creation.

If you would like to help us improve this process, please consider .

Thanks again, and happy editing!

Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:13, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Justlettersandnumbers! I put off posting that after getting enmeshed with the ontology, and completely forgot about it. I've tried to quickly shove in some of the breadth, and de-orphaned it a bit. I hope I have not re-introduced the layout problems you removed. HLHJ (talk) 00:00, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

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N95 mask

You have been contributing since 2007 and you do not notify significant contributors to an article before you do a redirect??? Patapsco913 (talk) 00:29, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

That was wrong of me, Patapsco913; it was not a deliberate attempt to avoid discussion, but a foolish oversight. I did what the "merge" template said and did not read through the guidelines carefully. I have rarely merged articles in my time as an editor; it's just not been my editing style. So I am still learning competence here, and I must apologize for inflicting my incompetence on you. I am writing a longer topic-specific response at Talk:N95 mask#Page move. HLHJ (talk) 00:36, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Continuation of discussion at WP:cleanup

Hey, HLHJ. After I replied to you yesterday, I tried to revert some of their earliest edits. Some of it had been undone already, but for most of what hadn't, I had to revert it manually due to intermediate edits. Given that, I have low hopes for automating the task. On the possibility of an SPI report: not sure if that's a good or a bad idea, but if good, I think it can wait. Kind regards from PJvanMill)talk( 13:15, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

By the way, something I noticed you doing (here and here): templates and HTML tags don't work within edit summaries - others see the literal wikitext. Links do work, and links to user pages apparently do send pings, as well. Kind regards from PJvanMill)talk( 19:37, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi, PJvanMill. I went through both sets of edits, dealing with all the non-death-date edits that you and others hadn't already dealt with. The second editor was following the first and making some of the same edits, and says the two are friends; I've warned about the problems this might cause, so the following should cease. I will continue to try to talk to the editor, but I've suggested some automated resources as a first step. Now there's a reply on the talk page from one, we'll see what happens.

Right, I will stick to links and pings. Thank you. That "nowiki" is especially bad, I should have previewed it. HLHJ (talk) 01:15, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

I've put both users' talk pages on my watchlist and will be keeping an eye on them. See you around! PJvanMill)talk( 10:25, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Looking for some support

Hi,

Greetings,I was looking for some support in following areas.

• Please do have a look at upcoming articles Draft:Ex-Muslims along with Draft talk:Ex-Muslims and also Superstitions in Muslim societies.

If any of above topics interest you, then pl. do contribute towards expansion of the same. Specially looking for support in Superstitions in Muslim societies.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku (talk) 05:19, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Content Creativity Barnstar
		For the creation of Elastomeric respirator and Supplied-air respirator, and expansions to numerous other articles on respiratory protection! John P. Sadowski (NIOSH) (talk) 16:56, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, John P. Sadowski (NIOSH)! That's very kind of you. HLHJ (talk) 04:13, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Elastomeric respirator

Hello! Your submission of Elastomeric respirator at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! SL93 (talk) 19:08, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

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DYK for Elastomeric respirator

On 7 September 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Elastomeric respirator, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that elastomeric respirators are used not only to protect against COVID-19 and tear gas, but also as fashion items (example pictured)? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Elastomeric respirator. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Elastomeric respirator), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Maile (talk) 00:01, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

DYK for Supplied-air respirator

On 9 September 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Supplied-air respirator, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that supplied-air respirators, unlike N95 masks, can be used in atmospheres that are oxygen-deficient or immediately dangerous to life or health? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Supplied-air respirator. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Supplied-air respirator), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cwmhiraeth (talk) 12:01, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

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The end of the Julyan-Kindheart saga?

They're blocked, if you didn't know already (I suppose you do, with the ping from Yngvadottir). It's a bit sad, so many times I thought (wanted to think?) there was progress... But simultaneously I think the blocks are a very positive change, as the only way things can continue is if they actually stop the behaviour, and of course this means we won't have to check up on them anymore. Anyway, if you didn't know, you know now. Kind regards from PJvanMill)talk( 23:21, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the note, PJvanMill; I hadn't actually seen as I hadn't logged in. They may be very young indeed. Perhaps they will come back when they have gained some maturity. At any rate they have not been treated badly. I should probably go through their edits when I have time and be sure anything remaining is sourced... I'll have to look to see if WikiBlame or similar might help. HLHJ (talk) 22:52, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

To I should probably go through their edits when I have time and be sure anything remaining is sourced...: I'm quite certain the only surviving edits are two or three contributions to plot summaries of fictional works and a few "died at age..." remarks in biographies. Any other edits were undone without exception. Kind regards from PJvanMill)talk( 13:15, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your encouragements

Great Supporter

Your mention of taffeta and textile topics made me wander to another of my pet topics. So eventually I will be getting better involved there (currently I am quite frustrated by the lack of standardisation in that environment) and, yes, I still plan to find a believable reference for taffeta 😊. Your updates on FRIN are a good example for me to be more direct/simple in my writing. I also got inspired by your information of your language skills and I added similar information to my profile. Cheers. Glafoululle des Alpes (talk) 17:18, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, Glafoululle des Alpes! Wikipedia:Global user page/de:Hilfe:Globale Benutzerseite ist auch hilfreich falls man mehrerer Wikis bearbeitet. Soll ich eigentlich irgendwann selber nutzen. HLHJ (talk) 05:19, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Ich hab mich an Wikipedia:Global user page gewagt und eine globale Benutzerseite erstellt. Solltest Du auch machen; man bekommt dann so spannende Emails wie « HsfBot meninggalkan Anda sebuah pesan di Wikipedia » und dann kann man auf seiner arabischen Diskussionsseite durch Google Translate «من ويكيبيديا، الموسوعة الحرة » mit « Aus Wikipedia, der freien Enzyklopädie» übersetzen 😁. Die Banner funktionieren leider nicht (man sollte wohl mal meta-banner definieren). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Glafoululle des Alpes (talk • contribs) 18:50, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Toll, habe ich jetzt auch gemacht; die spannende E-mails kann ich mich nicht entgehen lassen. Ich kreigte sowieso Botschaften die Erklärungen auf Russisch usw. benötigen, weil ich mal Bilder Sprachenquer eingefügt habe. Wiktionary ist mal ganz nützlich. HLHJ (talk) 05:52, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

User:Levivich/Help

Hi HLHJ, LTNS :-) Hope you're doing ok. Last year—before the world ended—we had a discussion at Clovermoss's talk page (User talk:Clovermoss/Archive 4#Editor retention, typo trivia) and you took a look at an early draft of User:Levivich/Help. I recently got back to that and expanded it, thought you might be interested in seeing the changes. Any feedback you have would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Levivich ^harass/_hound 06:46, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Levivich, and thank you for sending me the changes. It's looking good. I hadn't come across the Wikipedia:Dashboard before, and it seems quite useful. Nor had I seen Wikipedia:Community_portal/Opentask. The only nit I'd pick would be that some of the target help pages have gotten a bit slanted towards experienced editors, and you are certainly not responsible for doing all that. I'll try to go through some of them, using your help key as an index. I'm a bit depressed by the length of User:Levivich/Conduct problem, but it seems needed. The Growth Team has been trying to make CAPTCHA-like editing assistant tools; I think they might find User:Levivich/Something to do useful.

I have, surprisingly, been a bit busy off-wiki. I hope you are also doing well. There are far worse things to do while waiting for the world to gradually unend than edit Wikipedia, and help-page lengths notwithstanding, the company here is generally excellent. HLHJ (talk) 05:32, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for March 6

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited List of open-source mobile phones, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Android.

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DYK

Hello! Your submission of Numbered-node cycle network at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! 4meter4 (talk) 00:51, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

You mentioned at Template:Did you know nominations/Numbered-node cycle network that you weren't sure about your QPQ credits. It's pretty much up to individual users to keep track of them and demonstrate that they've fulfilled the requirement. I keep a list in my userspace because some of my credits go back a couple years and there's no way I'd remember them.

I'm not sure if there's a specific tool for finding your reviews, but you can use the following method: Enter HLHJ prefix:Template:Did you know nominations into the search box and it returns a list of 42 DYK noms that have your signature. Eliminate the entries from the list of your 11 credited DYK nominations at QPQ check tool. Then weed out the others, looking for unused reviews.

I found the following reviews which appear to be unused:

• Template:Did you know nominations/Salton Buttes
• Template:Did you know nominations/Peter van Geersdaele
• Template:Did you know nominations/Holothuria fuscopunctata

I got a little confused with Template:Did you know nominations/Benty Grange helmet, a single article hook which offered two reviews: Template:Did you know nominations/Nematophagous fungus and Template:Did you know nominations/Benty Grange helmet. The latter was reviewed by yourself and Gerda Arendt, who used it for QPQ on a nom which was later withdrawn. So I think it's still free to use for QPQ.

Good work with that cycling article! Happy editing! – Reidgreg (talk) 15:14, 17 May 2021 (UTC)

Category:Portable furniture has been nominated for deletion

Category:Portable furniture has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Sandstein 21:17, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

DYK for Numbered-node cycle network

On 31 May 2021, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Numbered-node cycle network, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the international numbered-node cycle network (example sign pictured) gives more freedom to cycle arbitrary routes across Europe? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Numbered-node cycle network. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Numbered-node cycle network), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Maile (talk) 00:02, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

Use of the "Expert needed" template without category or reason parameters

Hey, I've been doing some maintenance category cleanout and noticed that you added the {{Expert needed}} template to Platform bed, but you didn't specify a WikiProject category. Not specifying a category makes the template unhelpful, and adds it to the useless Category:Articles needing unspecified expert attention. Additionally, it's crucial to add a reason= parameter, or it will probably be removed because nobody can tell what the problem is. I added a category for you, but please supply parameters when using that template in the future (i.e. {{expert needed|Politics|ex2=Economics|ex3=Finance & Investment|reason=These GDP figures look like they might be miscalculated}}. Cheers! jp×g 23:39, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Got another one on Divan (furniture). jp×g 23:43, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, JPxG. I'll try to give params in future. HLHJ (talk) 01:11, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Re: Tanmono

Hello HLHJ I have added projects Japan, Fashion, to your article. You may wish to join them, check their to-do, and meet new people with interest in these topics. ( To reply click "edit" next to this section, and add your reply at the end. ) Cheers, --Gryllida (talk, e-mail) 03:39, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Wow that was fast, Gryllida, I only made it literally two minutes ago! Thank you. HLHJ (talk) 03:43, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your edits to Japanese subject matter articles!

Hiya - just wanted to pop in and say thanks for your hard work in improving various Japanese subject matter articles!

I also wanted to ask something of you. Could I ask that you maybe start adding {{transl}} and {{nihongo}} templates to your work wherever possible? I've been adding foreign language tags to these articles for a while now, and before your edits, a lot of them were completely done, in terms of foreign language terms being placed in the right templates.

They're pretty easy to use - transl for transliterated terms, {{lang}} if it's just kanji on its own, nihongo for english first, then kanji and romaji in brackets, and {{nihongo3}} when you want the places of romaji and english flipped in the eventual display. I understand it's a pain to slow down edits with adding these in, but I'm trying to make more editors aware of guidelines like MOS:ACCESS, and how they make Wikipedia more accessible for users with screenreaders.

I really appreciate having someone else help out on these pages, but it would save time not to have to go over them again to see what might need a template now(!) - the task of doing up these articles is never-ending. Again - any help at all is appreciated, ans what you've done so far is amazing. Thank you! --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 10:10, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

I was meaning to thank you for all your work cleaning up the phrasing and formatting, Ineffablebookkeeper. It's made the articles much clearer. I've been trying to use templates, but obviously I've done it wrongly; I was thinking any template that indicates that it's Japanese would suffice for a screenreader. Thank you for the quick guide, and I'll look into it more closely and try to use it correctly in future. I fear shoji is also pretty bad. HLHJ (talk) 15:02, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

There's a variety of templates, but some of them - confusingly - kinda do the same thing. Please don't feel bad about it! Language templates across Wikipedia as a whole are a bit of a conglomerate mess; there's not *really* much standardisation.

For instance, {{lang|ja-Latn|text}} and {{transl|ja|text}} will both send the information to the page that 'hey, this text is Japanese' - so it does get pronounced correctly.

However, ja-Latn confusingly wants to choose a display font that's as good for what it *thinks* is *entirely* Japanese text - even though it's romanised, it thinks, crap, I need a font that'll do kanji and the like as well.

This means, for some users, any text within a ja-Latn tag displays in an awkwardly different font - to the point that on occasion, I've seen a few editors removing tags for having simply buggered up the display.

I found this confusing as all shit at first myself - took me a while to wrap my head around what the nihongo template could and couldn't do. And that's not even picking up on templates like {{zh}} and {{korean}}(!) -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 19:47, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

That ja-Latn behaviour sounds like a flat-out bug; I mean, it isn't the 1980s, we have Unicode, it is not difficult to scan a character string and figure out if a font suffices. I really like the kanji with syllabic ruby text (it's a little like the Chinese characters were originally, with a meaning radical and a sound radical, but standardized spelling has downsides, especially after a few millennia). Especially if I am writing words with pretty rare kanji, ruby text is useful. HLHJ (talk) 01:38, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

I didn't even know about the ruby function until recently. There's a lot of terms I use that are really unusual or uncommon maegane, for example, commons refers to glasses, but when it comes to geta and zōri, it refers to these little things you see on the front base that cover up the front hanao knot.

I feel like there's a lot of places it could be used, so provided it doesn't interfere with the nihongo template's data, I could probably start putting it into some articles. -- Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 09:42, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, Wiktionary:めがね (no idea how to template that, especially if I add "#Japanese") doesn't even mention sandals. I quite like bopomofo ruby, too; the various romanizations of Mandarin are startlingly lacking in 1-to-1 phoneme-grapheme correspondence. I have no idea if it interferes with other templates. I found a better way to do the IPA in Waraji, tho. HLHJ (talk) 14:16, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Sorry to be a pain

Could I be a pain in the butt and ask you to have a look in on Itchiku Kubota for me? There's about as many repeated references as you could shake a stick at, and the organisation of the article's information is a nightmare - I swear half of it is repeated in the Legacy section for no reason. Thanks! (And sorry!) --Ineffablebookkeeper (talk) 10:41, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

I've dedupped the refs, I hope, Ineffablebookkeeper, and I've very roughly amalgamated those sections (~no rewriting; just reordering). I hope this is useful. There really ought to be a semi-automated tool for the former task. An article on art with no pictures of said art is a bit lacking, somehow. HLHJ (talk) 02:32, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Tropical neuropathy (disambiguation)

If this is the first article that you have created, you may want to read the guide to writing your first article.

You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.

A tag has been placed on Tropical neuropathy (disambiguation) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G14 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a disambiguation page which either

• disambiguates only one extant Wikipedia page and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic);
• disambiguates zero extant Wikipedia pages, regardless of its title; or
• is an orphaned redirect with a title ending in "(disambiguation)" that does not target a disambiguation page or page that has a disambiguation-like function.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such pages may be deleted at any time. Please see the disambiguation page guidelines for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 07:50, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

It was a redirect; I see that policy is to remove it if it's redirecting to one article. I've added some citations to the Tropical neuropathy article, if it's going to be stand-alone. HLHJ (talk) 15:09, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

"Seasonal temperature variation" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Seasonal temperature variation. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 August 31#Seasonal temperature variation until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:04, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for September 24

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Cepheid (company), you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Clostridium difficile.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 05:59, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Medicine Barnstar
	I stubbed and broke my toe last night. The information at broken toe was exactly what I needed. Thank you, thank you! (I also went through my local 8-1-1 system, and they gave identical info, so that's comforting in both directions!) [I was tempted to use the "stub barnstar"... but oh gods it hurts! XD] Best wishes, Quiddity (talk) 19:47, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Ouch! I hope you are feeling better soon, Quiddity. I'm glad to hear that the local healthcare agrees with the sources I could find. It's not the best-studied topic in medicine, and as I recall there was a German-language paper which I could not read due to a paywall. I'm really glad it was actually helpful, too. Just-in-time-delivery; the page publication timestamp is 03:29, 31 October 2021. It was prompted by discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine#Sacral fracture. HLHJ (talk) 20:19, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

ArbCom 2021 Elections voter message

Hello! Voting in the 2021 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 6 December 2021. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate in the 2021 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:14, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Four years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:05, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

A belated thank you, Gerda Arendt! Wow, has it been that long? HLHJ (talk) 21:30, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Invitation to take part in a survey about medical topics on Wikipedia

Dear fellow editor,

I am Piotr Konieczny, a sociologist of new media at Hanyang University (and User:Piotrus on Wikipedia). I would like to better understand Wikipedia's volunteers who edit medical topics, many associated with the WikiProject Medicine, and known to create some of the highest quality content on Wikipedia. I hope that the lessons I can learn from you that I will present to the academic audience will benefit both the WikiProject Medicine (improving your understanding of yourself and helping to promote it and attract new volunteers) and the wider world of medical volunteering and academia. Open access copy of the resulting research will be made available at WikiProject's Medicine upon the completion of the project.

All questions are optional. The survey is divided into 4 parts: 1 - Brief description of yourself; 2 - Questions about your volunteering; 3 - Questions about WikiProject Medicine and 4 - Questions about Wikipedia's coverage of medical topics.

Please note that by filling out this questionnaire, you consent to participate in this research. The survey is anonymous and all personal details relevant to your experience will be kept private and will not be transferred to any third party.

I appreciate your support of this research and thank you in advance for taking the time to participate and share your experiences! If you have any questions at all, please feel free to contact me at my Wikipedia user page or through my email listed on the survey page (or by Wikipedia email this user function).

The survey is accessible through the LINK HERE.

Piotr Konieczny
Associate Professor
Hanyang University
If you wish to opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself from the mailing list. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:24, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

DYK for Broken toe

On 5 January 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Broken toe, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that 88.1.2.1 is a broken toe, while 78.1.1.1 is a broken finger? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Broken toe. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Broken toe), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Amakuru (talk) 00:03, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hello, HLHJ

Thank you for creating Slub (textiles).

User:North8000, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

Nice work

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|North8000}}. Please remember to sign your reply with ~~~~ .

(Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

North8000 (talk) 17:39, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

		The Guidance Barnstar
		To thank you for your mentorship on here; I really appreciate it! QueenPuck (talk) 18:39, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much, QueenPuck; it's nice to be able to make an indirect return to everyone who has helped me over the years! It's hard sometimes to be helpful. You don't know what another editor doesn't know, and there will inevitably be areas in which you don't know everything yourself. I once met a new editor who was manually writing all of their talk-page signatures, instead of writing four tildes; if they hadn't messed up a timestamp I'd never have noticed. It must have seemed unreasonably difficult, but they never complained about it.

There is actually an (unregulated and entirely flexible) mentorship system, which some editors use. If it would make you feel you had more of a right to whatever help you need, I'd be happy to formally stand as your go-to, as, I'm sure, would many editors with far more biography experience than I. But it's not in the least necessary. Quite regardless, you are always welcome to ask me anything, and the same generally goes for other editors. HLHJ (talk) 03:40, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I didn't even know there was a mentorship system - I learn something new about Wikipedia every day! I wouldn't want to impose with any formal agreement, as you have already helped me a lot, and I think I am starting to get to grips with most aspects of this site, but I am mostly doing small edits as I work towards another new article (not a biography this time, I am trying to challenge myself!).

I did have one question that has been bothering me a bit, though, if you wouldn't mind. It is regarding the copyright status of books on archive.org. I actually had no idea archive.org even existed until I started researching for articles on here. I know that we are free to URL link to books on archive.org which are in the public domain, but what about books that are not? Am I allowed to link to a page within them as part of the references section? Please see the references of Francis Barraud. I thought it was okay to link to these pages, as anyone could simply search them on archive.org, as I did, but I am starting to wonder if just linking them is breaking copyright. I have seen other users link them, but they may also be unaware of the copyright rules. I am happy to remove the URLs and just leave a general reference if you indicate that I should not include them. I suppose this whole copyright thing is rather overwhelming to a beginner, feels like a bit of a minefield! Thanks again. QueenPuck (talk) 15:58, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Biographies make up a substantial part of Wikipedia, but specialization is entirely optional. I'll look forward to your new article.

Copyright law is absurd. If only we could modify it by consensus on Wikipedia, it would be much more comprehensible, sane, and balanced. WP:COPYLINK gives a (nuanced) answer to your question. Linking to archived websites is widely accepted and ubiquitous; linking to books that aren't PD, less so. Books which are PD can be uploaded to Commons and, optionally, to Wikisource as well. HLHJ (talk) 17:29, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

I see. Going forward, I'll err on the side of caution and not include a non-PD URL, just the details of the book. I agree with you about the absurdity; it seems such a shame that the editor cannot just share the link directly, when the user reading the article could just use the internet to find the exact same thing themselves (albeit, with more effort). From my brief research, it seems that Internet Archive is currently dealing with a federal lawsuit over its lending services, despite arguing that it is, in essence, just a digital version of a library. I never really thought about copyright before I started editing, but free, digital access to research material is starting to become a passion of mine!

Kind regards, QueenPuck (talk) 18:10, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for that link, QueenPuck, I did not know about that. I'd assumed that the Internet Archive library was like the HathiTrust's. It seems they have a large library of physical books, which they loan out digitally to anyone who signs up for a free account (a registration wall); it's the legality of this that is being challenged (they have a borrower's FAQ]). They also allow users to upload books, relying on the honour system for them being PD or suitably licensed, which should get them, like Wikipedia, DMCA safe harbor protection from liability.[31] The user-uploaded content may be copyvio. But the CDL program has not been ruled to be illegal, and it seems from the link you posted that the Archive won a lawsuit that challenged its legality in 2020. So I'd think it should be fine to link to a library catalogue entry that lets you sign out a digital copy if you register for a library account online. Actually, the Controlled Digital Lending Library looks like it has some good books on it. Streisand effect?

I suppose it's not surprising that law from in the early printing-press era might not be ideally suited to an era of ~instant free copying and communication. But it's interesting to look at early printed-book societies that had not yet implemented copyright (example); they have some amusing parallels. As I recall the University of Bologna banned printed books on moral grounds (unsuccessfully). There's a hilarious letter exchange in which Erasmus is thrilled that one of his works has been reprinted and sends a printer friend a copy, and the printer is not thrilled and sternly tells Erasmus he shouldn't be happy about (legal) pirate editions, as they take bread out of publishers' mouthes and infringe their moral rights. And there's people hanging out in the virtual space of the Republic of Letters, and rulers worrying that this will cause political dissent, unrest and revolution. And a (probably apocryphal, 1532) tale of Saint Columba vehemently arguing that copyright is immoral (and losing his court case). His speech could be made pretty much verbatim by a modern European Pirate Party leader. That sort of thing. Some folk even sound as if they are commenting on Wikipedia, complaining about ignorant people learning random stuff from potentially inaccurate printed works without the proper education for it, and getting strange ideas (which to be fair describes a lot of the history of the period, but some of those ideas were decent). The Creative Commons license article, while not stellar, summarizes a topic important on Wikipedia. There exist artists and authors who make a living from CC-licensed works (see subcats in Category:Creative Commons), and you see some of their work on-wiki. You might also be interested in this series of articles on the textbook market. We need to more textbooks on Wikibooks... HLHJ (talk) 03:58, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Citation needed

Just after adding a citation needed tag to your edit [32] (the junk rig element) I noticed that you had made some changes to the various bits of advice and guidance in Wikipedia that cover this tag. It seems to me strange that a long-standing editor should be suggesting that material added to Wikipedia is OK if it is not supported by a reference. The statement about junk rig being a "low-stress" arrangement sounds reasonably believable – but many readers would wonder "who says this, how can I learn more about this subject?" If what is in an article simply comes out of an editor's head and may be the result of misunderstanding, it is very important to be able to track down errors. Articles on nautical subjects, particularly on historical aspects of sail, are full of uncited material – most of which does not measure up when compared with specialist, authoritative sources. I fear that any encouragement of uncited material can only add to these problems.

I had thought that we had progressed from absence of sources to their quality (another subject that I could drone on about). ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 07:09, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi, ThoughtIdRetired! I've added a couple cites for that tag. I think it's the first book that the tearing-under-own-weight fact is from, and the author is much more authoritative on boat design and construction, but I'm sure both mention that it's a low-stress rig, so adding both is fine. I was going to check, and get a specific edition and pagenumbers, but I don't have access to the books at this moment. I'm quite sure it's true, though, and I thought that as we mentioned that the proa rig is low-stress, we should also mention that for the junk. In some way, we have got it backwards and are taking a non-global view of the subject; it would be fairer to say that the Bermuda rig, as developed for yacht racing and thoughtlessly mimicked on many sail vessels that really aren't suitable for racing, is insanely high-stress, adn the art of making a fast racing yacht is the art of making it not quite tear itself apart during the race. Historical boatbuilders cared more about coming home alive, carrying cargo profitably, low capital costs for building sail vessels, and being as comfortable as reasonably possible, so their typical rigs were, by yacht-racing standards, "low-stress". Traditional Polynesian sails often verge on basketwork, a far cry from carefully-shaped Dacron. Working Chinese junk sails are often insanely patched and made from whatever is available. But they work. Um, sorry, that was a digression. I've replied to the rest at User talk:HLHJ/Sandboxes/TemplateSandbox; I'm very much still forming my ideas on this subject and would really welcome discussion. HLHJ (talk) 14:56, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:There's no citation

Template:There's no citation has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:43, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Growth team newsletter #22

Welcome to the twenty-second newsletter from the Growth team!

Newcomers tasks reach the 500,000 edits milestone — more data publicly available

As of the last week of June 2022, the newcomers of the world have completed over 500,000 newcomer tasks. In other words, newcomers have made over half a million Wikipedia edits via Growth’s “Suggested Edits” module.

• About 30% of those edits were completed on mobile devices.
• Usage continues to increase; in June 2022 almost 50,000 newcomer tasks were completed.

We have added some new data to Grafana. You can now check the number of edits and reverts by task types, or the number of questions asked to mentors. You can filter the data by wiki.

If you have any questions, or there is more data you want access to, please let us know.

Ongoing projects and explorations

The new impact module is part of the Positive Reinforcement project. The image displays the mockup for mobile we used for user testing.

We are continuing our work on our new project, Positive Reinforcement. User testing of initial Positive Reinforcement designs was just completed. Interviews were conducted in Arabic, English, and Spanish. The outcome has been published on the Positive Reinforcement page. We are now utilizing user testing feedback along with prior community feedback to iterate and improve designs.

We are exploring the idea of a Copy Edit structured task. We have tested copy edits in Wikipedia articles for arwiki, bnwiki, cswiki, eswiki (Growth pilot-wikis) and enwiki with two different methods: LanguageTool and Hunspell. We will share more details here and on the associated Copy Edit page once the evaluation is complete.

Add an image was utilized at GLAM events in Argentina, Mexico, and Chile. For an overview of what was learned from these events, read: #1Pic1Article I: how Latin American heritage experts added images to Wikipedia (in English).

Experiments analysis

Add a Link Experiment Analysis has been published. The most important points are:

• Newcomers who get the Add a Link structured task are more likely to be activated (i.e. make a constructive first article edit).
• They are also more likely to be retained (i.e. come back and make another constructive article edit on a different day).
• The feature also increases edit volume (i.e. the number of constructive edits made across the first couple weeks), while at the same time improving edit quality (i.e. the likelihood that the newcomer's edits aren't reverted).

Newcomer task edit type analysis has been published.

• Communities had expressed concern that newcomers whose initial edits were structured tasks wouldn’t go on to learn how to complete more difficult tasks. The Growth team data scientist conducted a Newcomer task edit type analysis to see if this was indeed the case.
• Results from analysis indicate that this likely isn’t a significant concern. More than 70% of users who start with the easy task "Add a link" also make another task type. Read the full analysis and methodology here.

News for mentors

A new system for the mentors list

The configuration of the mentors list will change over the next weeks. In the future, mentors will sign up, edit their mentor description and quit using Special:MentorDashboard. This new system will make the development of new features for mentors much easier.

At the moment, the mentor list is a simple page anyone can edit, unless it’s protected. With the new page, mentors will be able to edit only their own description, while administrators will be able to edit the entire mentors' list if needed.

The deployment will happen first at the pilot wikis, then at all wikis. Existing lists of mentors will be automatically converted, no action will be needed from the mentors. [33][34]

Mentors will be informed about the next steps soon, by a message posted on the talk page of existing Mentor lists.

Learn more about this new structured page on mediawiki.org.

A tip for mentors

Did you know that mentors can filter their mentees' changes at Special:MentorDashboard (and star the ones that require attention)? This feature helps to keep an eye on newcomers' edits, helping mentors to fix minor details, and encourage them if necessary.

And did you know that mentors have special filters to highlight their mentees' edits at Special:RecentChanges? Look for the following filters in RecentChanges: Your starred mentees, Your unstarred mentees.

Other improvements

Some improvements will be made to the mentor dashboard in the coming weeks:

• While we now offer some options for mentors to take a break, the option to quit mentoring was not easy to find. This will be improved. [35]
• Mentors at wikis using FlaggedRevisions will have a way to discover their mentees' pending edits. [36]
• Dashboard discovery for new mentors will be improved. [37]

Recent changes and fixed bugs

• We moved to a new Image Suggestions API. This new API will allow us to deploy Add an Image to more wikis. [38]
• Starting September 19, a few more wikis now offer Add an image to newcomers. These wikis are Greek Wikipedia, Polish Wikipedia, Chinese Wikipedia, Indonesian Wikipedia, Romanian Wikipedia. [39]
• Add an image has been disabled for a few days due to technical issue. "Add an image" added a blank line instead of an image. This has been fixed. [40]
• In order to know if Special:EditGrowthConfig is used by communities, we now instrument page loads and saves of configuration. [41]

Have a question? A suggestion?

Please let us know! You can also read our FAQ page.

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

17:18, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

October 2022

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to vandalize Wikipedia, you may be blocked from editing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:600:827F:67C0:A9D2:E853:E3E:C1CD (talk) 02:31, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

What vandalism or disruptive edits, 2601:600:827F:67C0:A9D2:E853:E3E:C1CD? If you see me doing wrong, please tell me what I did wrong. I see you also templated Thrakkx without explanation. Please explain your templates. Have we talked before? HLHJ (talk) 16:28, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you...

... so much for your edit on 3 Equals some time ago (ahem). I try to ignore my watchlist, I don't even know if 3 Equals is on it: I think today is the very first time I ever looked at the talk page. Anyway, thanks for your positive and helpful comments: I think that the music - and the deep-seated emotions that engendered it - still stands out head and shoulders above the commercial popular hoo-hah which has always existed for most people: in contradistinction to those who have no fear of death at all, today of all days.

I don't do barnstars, but here's a pic of an old barn near where I use to live: MinorProphet (talk) 13:53, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Great Coxwell Barn

PS many more pix on Commons

Thank you, MinorProphet, that's a fascinating building. I had a good look through the Commons pics and tried in vain to hunt down a floorplan. I must try to visit it someday. You've reminded me that I meant to expand the aequales article and write a voci pari one... We should really record a university trombone group playing the original PD arrangement of those pieces, many of them play it, it's a repertoire classic, most would be happy to donate a performance to Wikipedia, and it would add a lot to the article. You might like Sackbut#Symbolism, for what the instrument meant to Beethoven. HLHJ (talk) 03:18, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Snowflake (software)

Hello! Your submission of Snowflake (software) at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at your nomination's entry and respond there at your earliest convenience. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Aoidh (talk) 04:17, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

DYK for Snowflake (software)

On 8 November 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Snowflake (software), which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that you can keep a snowflake in a browser tab? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Snowflake (software). You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Snowflake (software)), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:03, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

		Hook update
		Your hook reached 9,969 views (830.8 per hour), making it one of the most viewed hooks of November 2022 – nice work!

theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 07:14, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Northern Territories Alcohol Labels Study

Hello! Your submission of Northern Territories Alcohol Labels Study at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at your nomination's entry and respond there at your earliest convenience. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Flibirigit (talk) 02:07, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Full review has been completed. Please follow up at the nomination page. Thanks. Flibirigit (talk) 21:01, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Nomination of James Wilt for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article James Wilt is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Wilt until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Bearcat (talk) 17:46, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

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Growth team newsletter #23

Welcome to the twenty-third newsletter from the Growth team!

Highlights

• Mentorship: We released the new structured mentor list to all wikis. This change makes mentorship easier to setup, manage and use.
• Positive reinforcement: An improved impact module is available for testing.

Screenshot of the positive reinforcement module improvements.

Positive reinforcement: an improved impact module to test

The goal of the Growth team is to encourage newcomers to try editing for the first time, and encourage them to keep editing. We want to increase newcomers' motivation by showing them how impactful their edits are.

Newcomers have access to an impact module; you can find yours at Special:Impact. The revised impact module provides new editors with more context about their impact. It will display the number of edits, the number of thanks received, the last time they edited, the number of consecutive days they edited, and the number of views for the articles they edited.

This module will soon be available at our pilot wikis starting December 1. You can already test this new module at Beta Wikipedia. For safety reasons, do not use your regular account and password at Beta wiki. Create a new, specific account for this wiki, with a different password.

Structured tasks: improvements based on patroller feedback

After the deployment of Structured tasks, we received feedback from various communities regarding how patrollers of recent changes were feeling overwhelmed by an increase in edits to check, and how some edits were poor quality or of poor relevance.

We made several improvements based on the feedback we received. Several points of improvement have already been addressed:

• Patroller fatigue:
  • By default, newcomers can complete up to 25 "add a link" tasks and 25 "add an image" tasks per day. If patrollers are overburdened, each community can use Special:EditGrowthConfig to lower that limit.

• Quality of edits: what constitutes a "quality edit" is not a well defined concept. We initiated a discussion and summarized our findings. We also worked on the following improvements:
  • Add a Link
    • Underlinked articles are now prioritized, so it's less likely that newcomers are adding links to articles that are already have a lot of links.
    • The confidence score was increased, so suggestions are more likely to be accurate.
    • The default number of suggested links per article has been lowered to 3. This can be changed at Special:EditGrowthConfig. Communities can also exclude articles containing certain templates or categories from being suggested.
  • Add an Image
    • Lists will no longer receive "add an image" suggestions.
    • Disambiguation pages will no longer receive "add an image" suggestions.
    • We have many further improvements we plan to make to "add an image" in early 2023. [42]

The Positive Reinforcement project will also address some of the concerns around encouraging newcomers to progress to higher value edits. The Growth team will soon work on strategies geared at "Leveling up" newcomers so they progress from easy to more difficult tasks.

Recent changes

• All Wikipedias now have the same onboarding experience. Previously, at a few wikis, 20% of new accounts didn't get the Growth features when they created their account. These 20% of new accounts were used as a control group, in order to know if the Growth features were changing newcomers' behavior. Experiments have shown that Growth features improve activation and retention, and as we want to provide the same onboarding experience at all Wikipedias, we have decided to remove the control groups. We will utilize control groups when testing new features, and German Wikipedia keeps a control group at their request. [43]
• The quality score for "add a link" suggestions will change. We will suggest less links for each article, but they will be more accurate. We will first deploy it at our pilot wikis, and then to all other wikis where this feature is available. [44][45]
• Growth's features FAQ has been updated and expanded. This page centralizes all the information about Growth features. We invite you to read it, and, if you can, to translate it.

News for mentors

• All Wikipedias can now setup and manage a mentorship program in an easier way.
  • We changed the process to make it more reliable, easier to improve and easier to use.
  • Wikipedias where mentorship hasn't been enabled yet can turn mentorship on following a new process. When done, mentors can sign-up by visiting Special:MentorDashboard.
  • Wikipedias where the list of mentors already existed have been converted to the new system.
  • A new special page — Special:ManageMentors — now displays the list of mentors. This page can be transcluded on any other page. There are also new processes to signup as a mentor or to quit mentorship, and we improved community mentorship management.
• The Mentor dashboard's "Your mentees" module will have a new footer, called "Recent changes by your mentees". This footer will include a link to Recent changes, where mentors can see only edits made by their own mentees. [46]

Deployments

• Add a link has been deployed to a 5th round of wikis. [47]

Improving this newsletter

We plan to have a more regular newsletter, every two months. We also want to know if the current format suits you! Let us know what you like, what you like less and your suggestions of improvements: leave us a comment, in your preferred language.

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

20:57, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Happy Holidays!

Hello HLHJ : Enjoy the holiday season and winter solstice if it's occurring in your area of the world, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, RV (talk) 04:10, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Spread the WikiLove; use {{subst:Season's Greetings}} to send this message

DYK nomination for Northern Territories Alcohol Labels Study

Please note that Template:Did you know nominations/Northern Territories Alcohol Labels Study is still open and has seen no comments in two weeks. If a nomination goes stale without progress, it could be closed. Flibirigit (talk) 13:59, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

It has been another 12 days with no progress. Please find the time to complete this nomination. It is so close to the finish line. It would be ashame to see it rejected. Flibirigit (talk) 17:40, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Narrow cloth

@ HLHJ I fixed the problems you pointed out on the subject page. Please let me know if it suffices or if it needs more work. I also removed the template. Thanks RV (talk) 05:19, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Replied on Talk:Narrow cloth. HLHJ (talk) 18:18, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for January 9

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Snowshoe, you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Huron and Montagnais.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 06:10, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

New message from Narutolovehinata5

Hello, HLHJ. You have new messages at Template:Did you know nominations/Northern Territories Alcohol Labels Study.
Message added 16:20, 12 January 2023 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 16:20, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

New posts at this DYK nomination. Please stop by soon. Thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 05:40, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Growth team newsletter #24

Welcome to the twenty-fourth newsletter from the Growth team!

Newcomer experience projects

The Growth team partnered with other WMF teams to conduct several experiments around increasing account creation and new editor retention. Results from four of these experiments are now available:

• Thank you pages & banners - Encourage donors to create accounts through thank you pages and banners.
• Marketing experiment - Run ads on-wiki and off-wiki to see how this impacts account activation.
• "Add an image" GLAM events - Host GLAM events that focus on using the "Add an image" tool.
• Welcome emails - Experiment sending welcome emails to newly created accounts.

Newcomer tasks

• Several communities suggested improving "add a link", by suggesting underlinked articles first. We released this change to Growth pilot wikis. We will review the data and collect feedback before considering releasing it to more wikis. [48]
• The deployment of the "add a link" to all Wikipedias is still in progress. Suggested links use a prediction model, which has to be trained. The deployments will resume after we finish training all models. [49]

Mentorship

• When someone wants to signup as a mentor, they are now informed if they don't meet the defined criteria. [50]
• Workshop hosts asked us to have workshop attendees assigned to them. They can soon use a custom URL parameter. This way, workshop hosts will continue mentoring the event's attendees after the workshop. It will be available in February. [51]
• Have you considered to help new editors on your wiki, by signing up to be a Mentor?
  • Please visit Special:MentorDashboard to check on the conditions to be a mentor, and sign up.
  • If your wiki does not have Mentorship enabled, consider setting it up. The Growth team can provide advice and assist as needed. Please ping Trizek (WMF) for assistance.

Other news

• In Special:SpecialPages, Growth experiments now have their own section. [52]
• This newsletter will have a new publication period, 6 times a year: January, March, May, July, September, November.

Translations

• Newsletter translation: We are looking for translators for this newsletter. If you are interested and have the needed English language proficiency to assist, then please add your name to this list. You will receive an invite on your talk page to translate the newsletter when it is ready.
• Interface translation: You can also help by translating the interface, or reviewing translations to make them more inclusive. Interface translations are hosted at translatewiki.net.

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.• Help with translations

14:44, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

DYK nomination for Northern Territories Alcohol Labels Study

The article and the nomination have seen no progress in two weeks. Other reviewers will not be as patient as I am. Please return to the article and nomination promptly to avoid it being rejected. Flibirigit (talk) 22:51, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

New message from Narutolovehinata5

Hello, HLHJ. You have new messages at Template:Did you know nominations/Northern Territories Alcohol Labels Study.
Message added 00:05, 14 February 2023 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:05, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

There are further messages at the nomination. HJHJ, the article will have been eligible for four months on Wednesday, which is far too long. If you don't actively follow the review and respond right away to comments, it's likely to be closed as too old within a matter of days. Thank you. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:55, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Northern Territories Alcohol Labels Study

Hello! Your submission of Northern Territories Alcohol Labels Study at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at your nomination's entry and respond there at your earliest convenience. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Flibirigit (talk) 11:15, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

Requesting inputs and help

@HLHJ Requesting inputs and help @ Template talk:Cycling#Need links Bookku (talk) 06:14, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Northern Territories Alcohol Labels Study

On 13 March 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Northern Territories Alcohol Labels Study, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that alcohol manufacturers claimed the Northern Territories Alcohol Labels Study violated their freedom of expression? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Northern Territories Alcohol Labels Study. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Northern Territories Alcohol Labels Study), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 12:02, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Growth team newsletter #25

Welcome to the twenty-fifth newsletter from the Growth team! Help with translations

Celebrations

Leveling up release

• We released Leveling up features to our pilot wikis on March 22 for an initial A/B test.
• In this test, we use post-edit dialogs (pop-ups shown after publishing an edit) and notifications to encourage new editors to try new types of newcomer-friendly suggested edits.
• We are closely monitoring the short term impact of this feature as well as the longer term effect on newcomer productivity and retention. If the experiment shows positive results, we will release this feature to more wikis.

5,000+ images added via the newcomer task in February

• In February 2023, 5,035 images were added via the newcomer “add an image” feature (on all wikis where available); 155 were reverted.
• Since the feature “add an image” was launched: 36,803 images have been added; 2,957 images were reverted.

Recent changes

• Add a link
  • Community Ambassadors completed an initial evaluation that confirmed that prioritizing underlinked articles resulted in better article suggestions. We then evaluated the change on Growth pilot wikis, and results suggest that more newcomers are successfully completing the task and experiencing fewer reverts. We have now deployed the new prioritization model to all wikis with "add a link" enabled. [53][54]
  • We continue the deployment of "add a link" to more wikis. These changes are regularly announced in Tech News. To know if newcomers at your wiki have access to this feature, please visit your Homepage.
• The Impact module was deployed on our pilot wikis, where we conducted an A/B test. We published initial findings, and a data scientist is now completing experiment analysis. [55]
• Donor Thank you page experiment – Donors land on a “thank you” page after donation, and that landing page now includes a call to action to try editing: Example Thank you page in French. This promising feature is tested at several Wikipedias (French Wikipedia, Italian Wikipedia, Japanese Wikipedia, Dutch Wikipedia, Swedish Wikipedia).
• Growth features are now the default experience on both test.wikipedia.org and test2.wikipedia.org. You can test our features there.

Upcoming work

• Add an image – We plan to offer section-level image suggestions as a structured task for newcomers.
  • We are starting design work. [56]
  • Growth team Ambassadors helped with an initial evaluation of these section-level image suggestions. [57]
  • We will start a community consultation in which we share initial ideas and designs soon. [58]
• IP Editing: Privacy Enhancement and Abuse Mitigation – We will support this project for all Growth Team maintained products and extensions that may be affected by IP Masking. [59]

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

13:10, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Growth team newsletter #26

Welcome to the twenty-sixth newsletter from the Growth team! Help with translations

One million Suggested Edits

We passed the 1 million Suggested edits milestone in late April!

• The Suggested edits feature (AKA Newcomer tasks) increase newcomer activation by ~12%, which flows on through to increased retention. (source)
• Suggested edits increase the number of edits newcomers complete in their first two weeks and have a relatively low revert rate. (source)
• Suggested edits are available on all Wikipedia language editions.
• Newer Suggested edits, like Add a link and Add an image, aren’t yet deployed to all wikis, but these structured tasks further increase the probability that newcomers will make their first edit. (source)

Positive reinforcement

Positive reinforcement aims to encourage newcomers who have visited our homepage and tried Growth features to keep editing.

• The new Impact module was released to Growth pilot wikis in December 2022, and we are now scaling the feature to another ten wikis. [60]
• The Leveling up features are deployed at our pilot wikis.
• The Personalized praise features were deployed at our pilot wikis on May 24. Mentors at pilot wikis will start to receive notifications weekly when they have “praise-worthy” mentees. Mentors can configure their notification preferences or disable these notifications.

Add an image

• We are creating a new section-level variation of the “add an image” task. We have tested the accuracy of suggestions, and the development of this new task is well-underway. [61]

Other updates

• We are progressively releasing Add a link to more wikis. [62]
• After adding Thanks to Recent Changes, Watchlist and Special:Contributions, we investigated Thanks usage on the wikis. There is no evidence that thanks increased after the feature was added on more pages.
• We helped with code review for the 2023 Community Wish to add Notifications for user page edits. [63]
• We have been attending several community events, that we documented in our Growth’s Community events report.

What's next for Growth?

• We shared an overview of Growth annual planning ideas, and have started community discussion about these potential projects. We would love to hear your feedback on these ideas!

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

15:14, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Growth team newsletter #27

Welcome to the twenty-seventh newsletter from the Growth team! Help with translations

Annual plan for Growth

We shared our annual plan, for the period July 2023 - June 2024.

Our first project of the year will be Community configuration 2.0, which helps editors with extended rights transparently and easily configure important on-wiki functionality.

After we finish work on Community configuration 2.0, we will hope to fit in one of the following projects:

• Article creation: This project aims to provide new editors with better guidance and guardrails in the article creation process, with the intention of lightening the load of new page reviewers.
• Non-editing participation: This project aims to create low-risk ways for readers to participate in Wikipedia with the intention of funneling more readers into contributing to the Wikimedia movement.

Please let us know what you think about these projects on the related talk page, or Growth's annual plan talk page.

Suggested edits

The new "Add an image" section-level task

We released a new Section-level “add an image” structured task to Growth pilot wikis (Arabic, Bengali, Czech, and Spanish). This task was part of the Structured Data Across Wikipedia project. We are monitoring the edits made, and we look for community feedback as well.

Suggested Edits are now receiving topic predictions via the new Language-Agnostic Topic Classification. This change affects non-English Wikipedia wikis. It will ensure newcomers receive a greater diversity of task recommendations. Before, as this feature was a test, English Wikipedia was used to select topics. The change is gradual as lists of topics are refreshed when they become empty. The Research team will evaluate the impact in a few months. [64]

Starting on August 1, a new set of Wikipedias will get "Add a link": Georgian Wikipedia, Kara-Kalpak Wikipedia, Kabyle Wikipedia, Kabardian Wikipedia, Kabiyè Wikipedia, Kikuyu Wikipedia, Kazakh Wikipedia, Khmer Wikipedia, Kannada Wikipedia, Kashmiri Wikipedia, Colognian Wikipedia, Kurdish Wikipedia, Cornish Wikipedia, Cornish Wikipedia.

Mentorship

The Growth team provides dedicated features to establish a mentorship program for newcomers. Every newcomer gets a volunteer mentor who provides encouragement and answers questions. Communities can set up or join this mentorship system by visiting Special:ManageMentors. This mentorship system is configurable by the community at Special:EditGrowthConfig.

More communities have implemented mentorship. A Wikimedia Foundation data scientist will be looking at the impact of Mentorship. We will look at the impact on Spanish and English Wikipedia. [65]

The Growth team will also host a Mentoring new editors on Wikipedia session at Wikimania 2023 in Singapore. Workshop attendees will help brainstorm improvements to Growth’s mentorship features.

Positive reinforcement

We will share more complete experiment analysis for all the three parts of the Positive reinforcement project soon. At the moment, the new Impact module, Leveling up, and Personalized praise are still being A/B tested on the Growth team's pilot wikis.

In the meantime, initial leading indicators for the Personalized praise project have been published. Although this is still a relatively small sample, results seem healthy. They show that Mentors are indeed receiving notifications and clicking through to view their praise-worthy mentees.

Growth contributes to IP Editing migration

The Growth team is currently focusing on IP Editing: Privacy Enhancement and Abuse Mitigation. It is a project that touches many different Wikimedia Foundation teams. The Growth team will focus on temporary accounts through two main points:

• the user experience of a logged-out user, that switches to a temporary account,
• change Growth-owned extensions and features, so that they work as expected with temporary accounts. [66]

Community Configuration 2.0

We are still in the early planning stage of the Community Configuration 2.0 project:

• We are gathering internal Wikimedia Foundation teams' needs, so as community feedback. [67]
• We have started to investigate design improvements. [68]
• We are also reviewing similar tools that are part of other products. [69]

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

12:42, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Category:Open-source software converted to a proprietary license has been nominated for merging

Category:Open-source software converted to a proprietary license has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 19:48, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Growth team newsletter #28

Welcome to the twenty-eighth newsletter from the Growth team! Help with translations

Community Configuration, concept A: Accordion style

Community Configuration, concept B: Dashboard style

Community configuration 2.0

• Community Configuration 2.0 is a feature that will enable Wikimedia communities to easily customize and configure features to meet their unique needs. This approach provides non-technical moderators with more independence and control over enabling/disabling and customizing features for their communities.
• Technical approach and associated tasks are detailed in this Epic task on Phabricator.
• Initial designs are drafted for two different approaches (see images). We will soon demo interactive prototypes to interested admins, stewards, and experienced editors (T346109). Please let us know if you have feedback on the design approach, or want to participate in prototype testing.

IP Masking

• The Growth team has been working on several updates to ensure Growth maintained features will be compatible with future IP Masking changes. This work has included code changes to: Recent Changes (T343322), Echo notifications (T333531), the Thanks extension (T345679) and Mentorship (T341390).
• Before December, the Growth team will initiate community discussions with the goal of migrating communities from Flow to DiscussionTools. This move aims to minimize the necessity for additional engineering work to make Flow compatible with IP Masking. (T346108)

Mentorship

• We assembled some resources for mentors at Mediawiki wiki. This resource page is translatable and will be linked from the mentor dashboard.
• We are working to resolve a bug related to mentors properly returning after being marked as "Away". (T347024)
• Half of newcomers at English Wikipedia get a mentor assigned to them. To ensure every newcomer receives mentorship, we need additional volunteer mentors at English Wikipedia to achieve a 100% coverage rate. We also encourage experienced users from other wikis to help newcomers at their own community.

Scaling Growth features

• We continue the deployment of the structured task "add a link" to all Wikipedias. We plan to scale the task to all Wikipedias that have link suggestions available by the end of 2023.
• We plan to scale the new Impact Module to all Wikipedias soon, but first we are investigating a bug with the job that refreshes the Impact Module data. (T344428)
• At some wikis, newcomers have access to the "add an image" structured task. This task suggests images that may be relevant to add to unillustrated articles. Newcomers at these wikis can now add images to unillustrated articles sections. (T345940) The wikis that have this task are listed under "Images recommendations" at the Growth team deployment table.

Other news

• We disabled the “add an image” task temporarily (T345188) because there was a failure in the image suggestions pipeline (T345141). This is now fixed.
• You can read a report about the Growth team’s representation at Wikimania in Singapore here. Growth team members presented two sessions at Wikimania Singapore.
• After a 2.5 years-long collaboration with Bangala Wikipedia, we have decided to start a collaboration with another wiki. Swahili Wikipedia is now a pilot wiki for Growth experiments.

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

Trizek_(WMF) Talk 23:16, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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Growth team newsletter #29

Welcome to the twenty-ninth newsletter from the Growth team! Help with translations

Community Conversations

The Growth team will host its first community conversation Monday, 4 December (19:00 - 20:30 UTC). The topic for this meeting will be Mentorship.

This first meeting language will be English, but we plan to host conversations in other languages, and about other topics. Please visit the conversation page on-wiki for the details on how to join. You can also watch the page, or suggest ideas for upcoming conversations there.

Impact Module

At the beginning of November 2023, the Growth team deployed the New Impact Module to all Wikipedias. We recently released a follow up improvement to how edit data was displayed based on editor feedback. [70]

Add a Link

We released “add a link” to 35 more Wikipedias. [71] [72]

We have a few Wikipedias remaining:

• German and English Wikipedia will be contacted at the beginning of January 2024.
• There are a few small wikis that will not receive the task until they have enough articles for the algorithm to work properly.

Community Configuration

• We shared Community Configuration 2.0 plans with technical stakeholders. [73] 🖂
• Initial Community Configuration design ideas have been shared and discussed with community members.
• A basic Community Configuration 2.0 demo is released on ToolForge.
• Developers can find some initial proof of concept code shared on gitlab.

Mentorship

When a mentor marked themselves as "Away", they were not getting their name assigned to new accounts when they returned. This has been fixed. [74]

We improved the message received by newcomers when their mentor quits, to reduce confusion. [75]

We worked on ensuring that all mentees are assigned to an active mentor. This required reassigning mentees with no mentors to a new mentor. We paused this as the clean-up script confused some editors. We will resume it when the identified blockers are resolved. [76]

It is now possible to create an Abuse Filter to prevent one user from signing up as a mentor. [77]

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

18:04, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Six years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:34, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

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Editor experience invitation

Hi HLHJ :) I'm looking for people to interview here. Feel free to pass if you're not interested.

By the way, I remember bumping into you a few years ago and having a nice conversation. It's nice to still see you around. For some reason I thought you had become inactive. I'm glad that this was a misperception on my part. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:07, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Clovermoss! Nice to hear from you again. I've written a few drafts of respoonses to those questions, but I still need to think on it. I will answer, but probably not for a week or so; if it goes longer than that, feel free to remind me (or not).

Congrats on the trust reposed in you by handing you the mop, by the way. I think you'll do it well.

You probably had good reason to think me inactive; I am sometimes absent here for longish stretches. It's normal, and it's never been because I was fed up or had quit or anything, just offwiki reasons, most of them positive. HLHJ (talk) 04:06, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to take your time. It's good to hear you have good stuff going on offwiki. I also appreciate the confidence in regards to my sysop status. :) Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 04:25, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Here's your reminder since it's been more than a week and you asked for one after that time period. I sincerely don't want you to feel pressured though, you can take your time with it. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:22, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, Clovermoss. I've been unexpectedly unable to do anything onwiki recently (huh, contrib log says since March 31st) for totally off-wiki reasons; I'll try to get it done in a solid block of time next weekend. Sorry for the delay. HLHJ (talk) 23:17, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

You don't need to apologize, I just wanted to give the reminder because you asked for one. Good luck dealing with the off-wiki stuff and hopefully it's all good things like you were mentioning before. If not, I hope things get better for you. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 07:41, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

Growth News, April 2024

The Growth team will now send quarterly reports to keep you in the loop. Growth team weekly updates are available on wiki (in English) if you want to know more about our day-to-day work.

If you want to receive more general updates about technical activity happening across the Wikimedia movement (including Growth work), we encourage you to subscribe to Tech News.

Community Configuration

Growth features are currently configurable at Special:EditGrowthConfig. This quarter we are working on making Community Configuration accessible for other MediaWiki developers while also moving Growth feature configuration to the new CommunityConfiguration extension.

An early version of Community Configuration can be tested at Spanish Beta Wikipedia. We plan to release the new Community Configuration extension to pilot wikis (Arabic and Spanish Wikipedia) in early May, 2024. The first non-Growth team feature to utilize Community Configuration will be Automoderator.

In parallel with the development, the Growth team will propose Community Configuration usage guidelines, Community Configuration design guidelines, and provide technical documentation.

Experiment Results

Add a Image experiment analysis results

The Growth team conducted an experiment to assess the impact of the “Add an Image” structured task on the Newcomer Homepage's "Suggested Edits" module. This analysis finds that the Add an Image structured task leads to an increase in newcomer participation on the mobile web platform, particularly by making constructive (non-reverted) article edits:

• The likelihood that mobile web newcomers make their first article edit (+17.0% over baseline)
• The likelihood that they are retained as newcomers (+24.3% over baseline)
• The number of edits they make during their first two weeks on the wiki (+21.8% over baseline)
• A lower probability of the newcomers' edits will be reverted (-3.3% over baseline).

Personalized praise experiment results

This feature was developed for Mentors as part of the Growth team's Positive Reinforcement project. When A/B testing on Spanish Wikipedia, we found no significant impact on retention, but we found a significant positive impact on newcomer productivity. However, we concluded that the results weren’t positive enough to justify the time investment from Mentors. We plan to discuss this feature with our pilot wikis, and consider further improvements before scaling this feature further. Meanwhile, communities willing to test the feature can ask to have it deployed. (T361763)

English donors encouraged to try editing

As in previous years, donors were directed to a Thank you page after donation (example). However, this year we tested a new “Try editing Wikipedia,” call to action on the Thank You page. This call to action linked to a unique account creation page. From this account creation page we were able to track Registrations and Activation (editing for the first time). During the English banner campaign, the Donor Thank you page led to 4,398 new accounts, and 441 of those accounts went on to constructively edit within 24 hours. (T352900)

Future work

Annual Plan

The Growth team and the Editing team will work on the WE1.2 Key Result in the coming fiscal year. We will start initial discussions with communities soon to help finalize our plans. (T361657)

Newcomer Homepage Community Updates module

We plan to A/B test adding a new Community Configurable module to the Newcomer Homepage that will allow communities to highlight specific events, projects, campaigns, and initiatives. We are early in the planning phase of this project that will take place first at our pilot wikis and wikis volunteering. We welcome community feedback on initial designs and plans, in any language at our project talk page.

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

18:55, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

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WT:CGR

The discussion you started on WT:CGR has revitalised. Ifly6 (talk) 01:50, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Growth News, July 2024

Community Configuration

The Growth team released Community Configuration at all Wikipedias. You can access it at Special:CommunityConfiguration.

This new special page replaces Special:EditGrowthConfig. For now, all Growth features can be configured using Community Configuration. Configuration for AutoModerator (T365046) and other features will be available in the future.

You can help with translations. The interface translation is done at Translatewiki.net. You can also help translate the documentation.

If you attend Wikimania 2024, please join us for the session about Community configuration's future!

Current work

Newcomer Homepage Community Updates module

We will add a new Community Configurable module to the Newcomer Homepage that will allow communities to highlight specific events, projects, campaigns, and initiatives. We have released a simple version available to beta wikis. We will conduct an A/B test at our pilot wikis using the new Metrics Platform. We still welcome community feedback on initial designs and plans, in any language at our project talk page.

Future work

Increase constructive activation on mobile

As part of the Growth team 2024/2025 Annual Plan, the Growth team will explore various ways to increase the percentage of newcomers who successfully start editing.

Editing a Wikipedia page requires too much context and patience. It means many trial and error for newcomers to contribute, meaning a steeper learning curve and potential discouraging reverts. To support a new generation of volunteers, we will increase the number and availability of smaller, structured, and more task-specific editing workflows (E.g. Edit Check and Structured Tasks). The Growth team will primarily focus on Structured Tasks, while working closely with the Editing team to ensure our work integrates well with Edit Check.

Stay informed

Growth team weekly updates are available on wiki (in English) if you want to know more about our day-to-day work. If you want to receive more general updates about technical activity happening across the Wikimedia movement (including Growth work), we encourage you to subscribe to Tech News.

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

15:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Regenerative dentistry

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Confirmat screw moved to draftspace

An article you recently created, Confirmat screw, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. Dan arndt (talk) 02:53, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the note, Dan arndt. It's my understanding that it should only be moved to the draftspace if there is some doubt as to whether it is notable; I'm pretty sure it's notable, but if you've tried and failed to find notability-establishing sources, I'll look for some. Sorry for the kerfuffle. HLHJ (talk) 03:02, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Confirmat screw has been accepted

Confirmat screw, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

Congratulations, and thank you for helping expand the scope of Wikipedia! We hope you will continue making quality contributions.

The article has been assessed as Start-Class, which is recorded on its talk page. Most new articles start out as Stub-Class or Start-Class and then attain higher grades as they develop over time. You may like to take a look at the grading scheme to see how you can improve the article.

Since you have made at least 10 edits over more than four days, you can now create articles yourself without posting a request. However, you may continue submitting work to Articles for creation if you prefer.

If you have any questions, you are welcome to ask at the help desk. Once you have made at least 10 edits and had an account for at least four days, you will have the option to create articles yourself without posting a request to Articles for creation.

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Thanks again, and happy editing!

asilvering (talk) 01:25, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Growth News, October 2024

Current work

Newcomer Homepage Community Updates module

We will add a new module to the Newcomer Homepage that will allow communities to highlight specific events, projects, campaigns, and initiatives. We have released a simple version on beta wikis and we will soon start an A/B test on our pilot wikis. This module will only display on the Newcomer Homepage if communities decide to utilize it, so learn how to configure the Community Updates module, or share your thoughts on the project's talk page.

One design concept aimed to increase constructive activation

Constructive activation experimentation

After showcasing early design ideas at Wikimania, we conducted user testing of design prototypes. We now aim to engage communities in further discussions and plan to run a targeted experiment, presenting a structured task within the reading view to logged-in new account holders with zero edits.

Community Configuration

This Community Configuration extension was developed to help communities customize wiki features to meet their unique needs. The Growth team is now helping other Wikimedia Foundation teams make their products configurable:

• The Moderation Tools team now provides Community Configuration for Automoderator. (T365046)
• Certain Babel extension settings will be configurable soon. (T328171)

Future work

As part of the Growth team annual plan, we will continue to investigate ways to increase constructive activation on mobile, while also working with Data Products to move forward A/B testing functionality via the Metrics Platform.

Community events

• Growth team members presented Community Configuration: Shaping On-Wiki Functionality Together at Wikimania (slides). The session recording is available to watch on YouTube. This session provided an update on the Community Configuration project and introduced details about the upcoming features that communities will soon be able to configure. Representatives from the Moderator Tools, Editing, Web, and Campaigns teams shared their plans for utilizing Community Configuration in the future. Following these presentations, the WMF Growth team's Benoît Evellin and Martin Urbanec answered audience questions.
• Habib Mhenni gave a presentation of how mentorship works at WikiIndaba 2024. The recording is available.

Stay informed

Growth team weekly updates are available on wiki (in English) if you want to know more about our day-to-day work. If you want to receive more general updates about technical activity happening across the Wikimedia movement (including Growth work), we encourage you to subscribe to Tech News.

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

Trizek_(WMF), 15:43, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

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The Wikimedia Foundation is conducting a survey of Wikipedians to better understand what draws administrators to contribute to Wikipedia, and what affects administrator retention. We will use this research to improve experiences for Wikipedians, and address common problems and needs. We have identified you as a good candidate for this research, and would greatly appreciate your participation in this anonymous survey.

You do not have to be an Administrator to participate.

The survey should take around 10-15 minutes to complete. You may read more about the study on its Meta page and view its privacy statement .

Please find our contact on the project Meta page if you have any questions or concerns.

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BGerdemann (WMF) (talk) 19:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

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I recently invited you to take a survey about administration on Wikipedia. If you haven’t yet had a chance, there is still time to participate– we’d truly appreciate your feedback. The survey is anonymous and should take about 10-15 minutes to complete. You may read more about the study on its Meta page and view its privacy statement.

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BGerdemann (WMF) (talk) 00:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I have given a freeform response and explained why I won't be answering the questionnaire. Hope all goes well with the research! HLHJ (talk) 00:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Re: Discussion

Wikipedia editing mostly appeals to people who don't much care about credit or status

You raised an interesting point. I don't know how much you listen to podcasts, but the latest episode of Decoding the Gurus (Supplementary Material 18: The Clown Car Cometh) addresses the opposite problem, people who care so much about credit and status that they have willingly sacrificed free inquiry in favor of boot licking and lapdogging to generate a kind of artificial status climbing machine. They do this by taking "credit" for promoting the ideas of people at the top of a hierarchy, and therefore climb to favor and higher status by promoting the ideas of people who have power rather than people who have ideas based on knowledge. The host of the show made an even more fascinating point in this regard, noting that this is a return to the kind of pseudo-intellectualism of the Middle Ages, pre-Enlightenment, where the people who were in the closest circles to the King depended on his good graces, and therefore subsumed the quest for truth to the wishes of the King. This idea seems to re-emerge every now and then. I recall E. M. Forster making it a part of the plot of The Machine Stops, such that people who questioned their existence and searched for first-hand ideas that deviated from the status quo were dismissed as crazy, because the "machine" (same function as the King in the previous example) already had the answers, so the questions weren't needed. Have a great weekend. Viriditas (talk) 10:21, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I was unkind; credit and status do legitimately matter to anyone trying to accomplish social goals, and keeping Wikipedia going is a social goal.

I'm not sure I'd say the Middle Ages were anti-intellectual; Scholasticism, for instance, was spectacularly, acrobatically intellectual. Despite the impression given by that article, this wasn't only what we'd now call the social sciences; many of the works translated by the Toledo School of Translators were on clearly STEM subjects, and lead to technological innovations like the invention of eyeglasses, which was widely lauded by contemporaries. I think it's more that basic research seldom thrives under authoritarian governments, and that there wasn't much economic surplus for supporting intellectual endeavors. People with spare time, who live in fairly societies which institutionalize individual liberties (at least for them) are those who engage in the most intellectual activity.

The Middle Ages definitely disapproved of flatterers; the ideal courtier was not a flatterer, and the ideal monarch had no time for flatterers. King Canute and the tide is a medieval story. Actually, I can't think of a culture without norms against flattery and yes-folk. I think there are economic factors in the repeated waves of concerns about flattery (I can give historic examples), and we are basically looking at the ways in which shifting incentives affect the uses of social skills and non-social skills. Flattery and designing addictive platforms are done from similar motivations. All societies, and most especially all efforts at social reform, need both skillsets.

I did go read the fulltext of The Machine Stops; thank you, I hadn't read it before. It's very well-written. Like any short story, more an idea than a world, but it's aged well. The Machine does not of course respond to flattery or sympathy, so it hardly encourages them. There are problems with stories where technology is tremendously useful and reliable (because the engineers in this world were very good), but society has a technological single point of failure (because the engineers in this world were all idiots) and when it fails, no-one can remember how to fix it (because the author personally couldn't replace a lightswitch), and the results are catastrophic (because no-one in this world can design an obvious fail-safe or a contingency plan), and the only recovery plan involves vaguely medieval tech (because the author wrongly thinks they understand that). They are worse if the story tries to be about the technology, rather than just using the implausible tech to say something about society. But this one is focussing on the social effects, and leaving the Machine in the background, so it works. HLHJ (talk) 02:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

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