User talk:Ifly6

Barnstar

		The Original Barnstar
		For all your contributions relating to the topic of Rome, commendable for both their quality and quantity. Avilich (talk) 22:57, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! Ifly6 (talk) 00:06, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

That was quick, congrats on the GA for Catilinarian consp. Avilich (talk) 03:41, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! Ifly6 (talk) 14:20, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Writer's Barnstar
	For bringing Catilinarian conspiracy to GA, at long-last. Great work! Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 23:47, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Teamwork Barnstar
	Here is the award you deserve for doing the most detailed GAN review by a new reviewer in the last month, in my view, at Talk:Battle of New Carthage/GA1. (t · c) buidhe 22:07, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

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Crisis of the Roman Republic

I would like work with you on this article. What are the best first steps? Bearian (talk) 18:53, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

JC and M-M

It took a while for print-on-demand, but at last I've finished Julius Caesar and the Roman People and it's a delight and a masterclass. If not for your citations and that discussion I'd have missed it, so thank you! NebY (talk) 16:08, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I think it's a great book, especially when it gets into the details of what's going on in the procedural and political contexts of Caesar's first consulship and the opening of the civil war. I think MM's got the much stronger side of both arguments there. That said, I'm not as sanguine as MM is when it comes to Caesar's death. That many people (obviously not all) saw Caesar as a tyrant is, I think, unavoidable. MM's semi-apologism that citizens could distinguish freedom for people and for senators even if true isn't that relevant. I think the backlash had to do with the act rather than the aim. Ifly6 (talk) 18:37, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

That's interesting; I was receiving a picture of Caesar as very much failing, while hurrying to make arrangements for his departure, to appreciate how badly he was managing his popular perception, and such attempts as he did make backfiring - rather reminding me of modern politicians who flourish in opposition but stumble in government. (I'd often been thinking how relevant How Democracies Die was, so that long discussion of it was very satisfying.) I didn't always follow MM's arguments, such as that the Senate forced Caesar's incursion, but I might on re-reading and I'm certainly totally open to blaming Cato for pretty much anything. Meanwhile MM's quite transformed my understanding of the People's role in the constitution of the late Republic, generally and in specifics like contiones. Ah, I could go on - but having appreciated MM's ateleogical rigour, I have Hindsight in Greek and Roman History[1] lined up! NebY (talk) 17:44, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Re MM and 49, see App'x 4, which discusses an essentially game-theoretic approach for why nobody was willing to give in. Frankly I think it's the most convincing explanation of the start of the war. Though, I wouldn't say it was "the senate" or "Caesar" which was to blame. They were stuck in a cycle of mistrust. Even Caesar's realisation that his position was essentially military intimidation and his following adjustment late in the crisis (Pompey should withdraw to Spain and Caesar keeps one legion in Illyricum) doesn't feel entirely sufficient.

If you're Cato et al: this rogue governor has been trying to militarily intimidate you and rabble-rouse at Rome for the last year. Can you really believe him when he says he's going to give up all but one legion? Will he actually do it while you send away your only hope to defend Italy through his territory? You don't trust Caesar; assume bad faith and this turns from an offer into a ploy. "It's one of those ploys he's been playing on Gauls, Germans, and Britons for the last decade. Does he think we're stupid enough to fall for traps like those barbarians?" Ifly6 (talk) 22:41, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Also about Hindsight. I think the fact that the republic fell in ... some year between 49 BC and AD 14 has hugely coloured historians' perspectives on it. Imagine a world where the republic did not fall from, say, the time of Cicero. What kind of things would have had to have happened? Certainly the middle and late 50s BC were not a great time for the republic but after 52 and the restoration of order these problems may have been on their way out. The new law on provincial assignments were just coming into effect and probably would have helped to stabilise politics.

Part of the weakness of the Sullan republic was the death of essentially the entire real political elite in the Social and Sullan wars. Another decade and there would finally be enough ex-consuls to return to a state of normalcy and an end to the state of affairs where the darling of the senate is an ex-praetor (Cato lost his only bid for the consulship). Actually assigning someone to the forests and country lanes of Italy (derided in Caesar's first consulship as a ploy) really was something that was necessary given the mobs of bandits patrolling the peninsula; time enough would have aged such men out.

The republic's fall was within the context of the disruptions of the Social and Sullan wars. If it had had more time for those disruptions to ease, if there weren't a Caesarian civil war, or maybe even if Antony had just bit it like Hirtius and Pansa during the Mutina war, we would probably be talking of a very different course for Roman history. Maybe the republic would even have fallen in the third century (amid plague and climate change) instead of in this last half century BC. Nobody knows. Ifly6 (talk) 23:04, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the Prisoner's Dilemma appendix is very good, and the overall picture of escalating mistrust and inventive gambits (Cato, Bibulus) - so reminiscent of How Democracies Die. I wasn't fully persuaded in the main chapters that the preservation of Caesar's dignitas was so vital as to necessitate marching into Italy with legions but that might be my failure to read MM thoughtfully enough or to grasp Roman psychology, or reflect some pusillanimous mildness of my own. I don't really mind, because I can just be enthralled without having to make my mind up (cf Brian May "astronomy's much more fun when you're not an astronomer").

And yes, that mistrust and gambiting was in part the product of the losses of the Social and Sullan wars, wiping out many of the gatekeepers and fatally interrupting the maintenance of the norms that are (HDD again) as or more important than the constitution. MM keeps his thought experiment brief, but if Caesar had survived to fight the Parthian campaign and Rome had experienced three years of not even fighting elections, we might be looking back on his clementia as a key component of the republic's recovery.

I blame the meddling time-travellers. Octavian's survival is just taking the piss. NebY (talk) 22:38, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Again on Hindsight. The chapter by Powell, "Anticipating Octavian's failure: from Tauromenium to the death of Cleopatra", is some rather interesting reading. I think I would have wanted to see some chapters on the republic (like what if Lepidus had won in 79, Pompey was victorious in 48, etc) but of course there's probably insufficient information for a compelling counterfactual. Ifly6 (talk) 00:45, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

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George Floyd (American football)

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BGerdemann (WMF) (talk) 00:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Question regarding Primary sources.

Just a question, can you actually read Latin or Greek? I'm noticing you seem to overly rely on secondary sources, and seem antagonistic towards the use and interpretation of primaries. Your opinions and narratives come off as incredibly forceful for ancient history with this in mind, modern social historian like really. It's a little jarring considering from what I can tell you have little background beyond being a hobbyist. 2600:4040:2C9D:3000:B10E:8A5E:5EA3:9C1A (talk) 22:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

My main positions with regard to the primary sources emerge from Wikipedia policy: WP:PRIMARY is foremost, which essentially makes it impossible for someone to overly rely on secondary sources. The core question is what should be added and it is not whatever some random person says or interprets [some source or whatever] to say. Although I can read Latin (and don't read Greek) – such as when I read PIR, CIL, or pre-1990s OCT prefaces, all of which are secondary sources in terms of commentary, – language skills are irrelevant as to what Wikipedia sourcing policies require. (This is orthogonal to the language skills needed to understand what, say, PIR is saying about Cicero Minor, since Wikipedia does not discriminate against sources in other languages.)

Re antagonistic towards... interpretation of primaries, doing that is proscribed original research. If you are interested in doing interpretation of primary sources and putting them on Wikipedia, get them published first. Debating what Livy means when he discusses a praetor maximus and the like is suitable for Historia. Wikipedia is here only to report on what others have said on it with due weight (itself debatable) for what those authors have said. Ifly6 (talk) 00:18, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

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