Template:Did you know nominations/Schloss Weilburg

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:30, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Schloss Weilburg

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1655 engraving by Merian

~~... that the Baroque palace with garden Schloss Weilburg contains a Renaissance four-wing palace around a square courtyard (historic engraving pictured)?~~ Source: several

Reviewed: Ludwigsburg Palace
Comment: I'd like that best on 11 August, final day of the Weilburger Schlosskonzerte.

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 15:54, 5 August 2018 (UTC).

Article is new enough and long enough. Many sentences are unsourced apparently and I am not certain that the inline sources support the content. Can't tell copyright and the like, either. Images seem good to me, hook is supported by article text but not necessarily by a source.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:29, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

May be my lack of English, - how would you call what's pictured? - If we have unsourced facts, we can postpone them until after DYK. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:44, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Gerda Arendt I am not certain that the "unsourced facts" are acceptable in a DYK article. I certainly haven't seen many instances. Not sure about using a Commons image as a source either. I think that adding inline citations should be done before DYK. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 06:57, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, you misunderstood me. I didn't suggest to keep the facts, - the German article is so long that we can drop what you think is unsourced, and bring it back after DYK. Example: the water system, no ref for that found. I am sure it's in one of these books, but I have no access. We can drop it, - the article will still be readable. The courtyard IS now sourced, "vierflügeliges Renaissanceschloss", and much else, did you see?. Couldn't fing the Sckell brothers in Weilburg articles, but our article on them has it. Should I copy? Would prefer to write something new in that time. What's open? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:09, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

German Wikipedia has very different sourcing standards and copying stuff from there is thus dicey. Yes, the unsourced content should either be sourced or dropped. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 07:45, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

I asked what you still see open? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:10, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I'll need to answer tomorrow. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 21:39, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

At the same time, a water pipe was installed., Several areas are venues of the music festival Weilburger Schlosskonzerte, which is held annually in summer: the Renaissancehof, the Alte Hofstube and the Obere Orangerie. A hotel is in the former Viehhof, the former riding hall is used as Stadthalle for public events. The complex is a listed monument of the Hague Convention. are things that still need sources. The John Ernst sentence and the "In the 18th century..." sentence aren't supported by the source. I can't find "replaced a former collegiate church which had become the parish church of the Protestant congregation. " or "Below the altar, more than 30 Nassau and Luxemburg rulers are buried, even those who had previously been buried elsewhere, including: " or "A French formal garden was created by two gardeners, Francois LeMarie from 1700 and Johann Michael Petri from 1708." or " In 1948, the town museum (Stadtmuseum) of Weilburg was created in an adjacent building which also holds the archive." either. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 06:13, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Of these things, I sources the venues of the Festival, and the first gardener, and commented out the rest. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:01, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

John Ernst, Count of Nassau-Weilburg commissioned in 1703 the builder Julius Ludwig Rothweil (de) to expand the palace.[2] To the north, a Viehhof stable was built. In the west, the new Rentkammer and Kanzlei were built for the administration of the county. still looks unsupported. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:54, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

ref for former, dropped latter --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:10, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:12, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Hello, I came to promote this, but I'm not sure if the hook is quirky enough: weren't courtyards a common element of Renaissance architecture? In addition, the article has a typo: the infobox caption says "aireal" instead of "aerial". Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 12:33, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

I fixed the typo. - The hook doesn't say that a Renaissance palace has a courtyard, but that a Baroque palace kept the Renaissance buildings and courtyard, - I don't know any other. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:09, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Hampton Court Palace has two Renaissance courtyards at the front, but is Baroque at the rear? Johnbod (talk) 03:05, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Requesting a second review, ideally from someone who's familiar with architecture or edits in that field. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 20:20, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

The dates in the lede seem to me to contradict the main text -- have I missed something? Square courts are not really unusual in Renaissance buildings; if you want light, or in hot climates a narrow space with a cooling fountain, they are the obvious solution. "A Renaissance courtyard" would be an adequate description of a square courtyard surrounded entirely by Renaissance buildings. The compound noun "Baroque palace with garden" would strictly need to be "Baroque-palace-with-garden" to avoid the implication that only the garden is called Schloss Weilburg; "Baroque garden palace" would probably be preferable. A Baroque palace containing an intact Renaissance Palace is more interesting; we could drop the courtyard and focus on that. Another possibility is a hook about the size of the palace or, better, its rather astonishing costs, ideally in terms of labour or some such so readers will understand them.

A labelled map or air photo would really add to the article, but that would be a fair bit of work to make. Perhaps an e-mail to info@schlosshotel-weilburg.de might persuade them to donate a map and/or other useful materials to Commons? HLHJ (talk) 03:53, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. I would not have written garden palace, thinking it would be a too literal translation from German, but if you say so ... How is this then:

ALT1: ~~... that Schloss Weilburg, a Baroque garden palace, Renaissance four-wing palace around a courtyard (historic engraving pictured)?~~ --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:06, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

ALT2: ... that Schloss Weilburg, a Baroque garden palace, contains a Renaissance palace, which consists of four wings around a courtyard ~~(historic engraving pictured)~~?

ALT3: ... that Schloss Weilburg, a 1700s Baroque garden palace, contains a 1500s Renaissance palace (historic engraving pictured), the oldest part of which is called the "Neuer Bau", or New Build?

Thank you, Gerda Arendt. Sorry, English has no consistent rules about noun stacks that I know of, any number of newspaper style guides seem to give an ~equal number of contradictory views. I think there might be some words missing from ALT1? ALT2 would be close. ALT three is not very hooky, but I found it amusing. I've modified the article, I hope I haven't added anything stupid, but please don't hesitate to let me know, or change it back. HLHJ (talk) 03:06, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Thank you! ALT3 is what I meant to write. ALT4 is cute, but a bit difficult to grasp ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:43, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

I think you meant ALT2 and ALT3, Gerda Arendt :)? Or maybe you have an ALT4 you'd like to suggest? Please feel free to strike all the hooks you don't like. The picture clearly shows four wings around a courtyard, so we could leave off that bit if you want. I'm not sure if we need indications of the meanings of the terms "Baroque" and "Renaissance", your call. HLHJ (talk) 01:07, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

You are right about the numbers, and on the Pour le piano nom, I confused 4 and 5, sorry. I think this hook is quirky only for people who already know what Baroque and Renaissance means, but wonder if people who don't know would even like the article. You are right about "courtyard" not needed if the image is taken. If. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:44, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm approving ALT2 then, but splitting it with an added 2a as a note to the promoter about removing the last clause if the picture is used. Please let me know if this is not what you had in mind. Baroque is old and Ren is older :)? Everyone has to learn sometime, and outside of Europe it's a bit more obscure, but as you say, one hopes they'll click thru. There seems to be a CC photo of the Hochschloss (here), but there is an appeal to the old engraving. I've commented out a few bits of the article as uncited, and I think the one in the lede may actually be wrong, but I've managed to cite and uncomment some other bits. The information about the forestry required for the Baroque palace in the German-language article is fascinating, I wish I had a source for that... I've added a bit about the water supply. Also some more numbers for the scale of the palace. HLHJ (talk) 01:13, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

ALT2, or, only if picture is used, ALT2a: ... that Schloss Weilburg, a Baroque garden palace, contains a Renaissance palace (historic engraving of smaller palace pictured)?

Thank you for a great constructive approach! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:11, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Matthäus Merian should be linked, as he now is in the article, if mentioned. Johnbod (talk) 13:18, 5 October 2018 (UTC)