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Multiple articles and discussions being contentiously edited to add or remove "prestige" and rankings in the lede

It appears that there are several editors who are currently disputing the inclusion or removal of statements about prestige and rankings in the lede of multiple articles about US colleges and universities:

There are probably some other articles but I think this list is sufficient to illustrate that these edits, many of which have been disputed by other editors - sometimes with discussion taking place in Talk and sometimes without any substantive discussion, are somewhat widespread. It's a relatively small group of editors involved in these edits and discussions but there are a relatively small number of editors who regularly edit college and university articles in general so that's not surprising or concerning.

There was an RfC in 2020 that specifically addressed this content. That discussion was closed with these consensus findings:

"[T]here is consensus that, to include text on "reputation, prestige, or relative ranking(s)" in a lead section, such material must be compliant with generally applicable policies, including:

  • maintaining appropriate relative emphasis in lead sections (one editor noted that "only if a reputation is exceptionally good or bad or disputed is it such an important fact as to be noted in the * lead section of an article," and no editor has contradicted this view);
  • following the general principles applicable to describing reputations;
  • ensuring that the lead appropriately reflects, and is supported by, the body of the article;
  • being directly supported by high-quality sources (WP:V, WP:RS, WP:SYNTH); and
  • adhering to a neutral point of view, including:
    • by avoiding boosterism and puffery (which can come in the form of undue weight).
    • by using a descriptive, encyclopedic (rather than promotional) tone.
  • [T]here is a consensus that if few sources on reputation, prestige, or rankings exist, or if such sources are not of high quality, that is a signal that the high threshold for inclusion in a lead section is not met.

... Although not specifically addressed, in this RfC, the general principle of WP:ONUS would of course apply — consensus must be obtained before reinstating material challenged on the grounds of V, RS, NPOV/WEIGHT, or any other policy."

It might be desirable to remind one another of this RfC. It may even be desirable to revisit it or centralize discussion of these issues here instead of across multiple articles. ElKevbo (talk) 22:30, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Pinging the editors involved in these edits in the articles specifically mentioned above: @Robminchin:, @Roaringwikifan:, @Drevolt:, @Pbritti:, @Wozal:, @Deng92.9:, @GGO111:, @SassySalt:, @92.96.253.251:, @Comprehensive-design:, @2600:1700:291:4a40:4560:19f6:7640:7c56:, @2600:1700:291:4a40:5c48:32a6:4f15:d36:, @73.24.189.66:, @Karvlig:, @Filetime:, @Zizyfuz:, @Botanicalgardens500:, @Magnolia677:, @Cfls:. Apologies if I missed anyone! ElKevbo (talk) 01:07, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Indeed. I have no general objection to the inclusion of statements on prestige where there are suitable sources, but such cases are few and far between. In most cases, there is (or was) a claim of prestige made on the basis of one or two rankings, not citing any sources that actually reached the conclusion stated. This clearly doesn't meet the general standard for inclusion in Wikipedia, even before considering whether putting it in the lead is undue. Robminchin (talk) 22:57, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
In the interest of consistency across pages on Wikipedia in general and a deference towards those with a better comprehension of the general subject matter, I wholly second Robminchin's statement and appreciate ElKevbo taking this step. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:14, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
Nicely said, I completely agree with all of this. Drevolt (talk) 01:06, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed)

It seems from following the discussion you linked, that ElKevbo was not engaging in CoI editing but was, in fact, editing a completely separate article. There does not appear to be any dispute currently relating to the lede of the University of Delaware article, although it has been brought up as WP:OTHER STUFF EXISTS in a dispute regarding another article, where ElKevbo stated, quite correctly, that he couldn't edit the University of Delaware page because of CoI. This has all the hallmarks of an ad hominem attack and does not appear to be on topic here. Robminchin (talk) 01:04, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Here, we should be concentrating on the general guidelines for inclusion, which follow standard Wikipedia policy. We should be clear, for instance, that we don't use words like prestigious to describe institutions unless that description is backed up by multiple high quality sources. Similarly, we don't try to imply prestige by association, such as describing in the lead of an institution's article that a group that an institution is a member of is "prestigious". With rankings, any mention in the lead must give due weight and broad coverage. If included at all, it should be low down in the lead and should include major national and international rankings – not just rankings that make an institution look good.
In the case you mention, and without looking into it in great depth, one issue is likely to be the use of a primary source – government statistics – to try to form an impression of the institution in the lead. Use of primary source is always tricky, which is why we don't tend to rely on them. While the actual expenditure is likely to be fine in the lead, as it's simple statistics about the institution, the inclusion of the ranking is more dubious. Robminchin (talk) 01:37, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
By all means, use prestigious on the article on the AAU itself if there are sufficient high quality sources to justify it, but using it to imply prestige by association on articles about members is not acceptable. If anyone is interested, they can click through and read the article on the AAU, but there is no need or reason to mention it everywhere it is being linked.
The raw data on expenditure, as I said before, would probably be fine, and could certainly be argued as important information, but the ranking is not important information. Besides the concerns about misuse of primary sources, it would also seem to be giving undue weight to a ranking based on one very particular measure. To stick to general principles: rankings on a particular objective measure, with the most common examples probably being size or age, should only be given if the institution's ranking on that measure is particularly notable. Third oldest is notable and worth stating; 25th oldest is not worth mentioning. Largest is notable; 52nd largest is not. Robminchin (talk) 02:32, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
To add, the reason we can tell that a ranking on a particular measure is notable, if this is debated, is, of course, that reliable independent sources mention it in the context of the institution. This is one reason we can't just pluck the ranking out of the primary source. Robminchin (talk) 02:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Further, please do not edit your earlier responses that have already been replied to, particularly not to add more names ad hominem attacks. See Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Per WP:RPA, I have removed the personal attacks from this discussion and left a warning on your talk page. Robminchin (talk) 04:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
This isn't about "areas of competence", it's about the basic Wikipedia policy of NPOV – that we don't insert our own opinions. In many cases, it's not necessary to demonstrate that something being the oldest or largest is notable enough to go in the lead, because everyone agrees on this, but if you want to argue that an institution being ranked 36th or whatever on research expenditure is important enough to go in the lead, you should at the very least be able to point to secondary sources that discuss that as an important feature of the institution. If you can't, then its inclusion in the lead is WP:UNDUE. Robminchin (talk) 04:51, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
We're not discussing individual articles here, just the general principles. But to use Arizona as an example of how those principles would be applied in this case:
The only mention of Arizona is a university press release. This does not establish that this is important. The Forbes listicle, which is dubiously significant coverage, doesn't mention Arizona. Thus it would appear that Arizona's position in this ranking is a significant feature of the university such that it would merit mention in the lead.
Note this is an example of how to apply it. Discussion should be held on the University of Arizona talk page. Remember, also, that the WP:ONUS is in the person proposing inclusion to demonstrate that it is not WP:UNDUE. Robminchin (talk) 16:33, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Thank you, @ElKevbo for starting this thread.
A few notes here:
1) I'm not convinced that prestige is something that can ever be ranked. I'm also not convinced there are any rankings that claim to measure prestige. I feel that it's one of those things that if you boast you have it, you don't. As such, I have concerns with that specific word appearing in articles.
2) I think it's nearly impossible to talk about prestige without the "ivy league" being brought up. The ivy league is a sports conference. I'm aware that others use it outside of that context, but that are its origins. There are no other articles which I'm aware of which mention sports conferences within the first line.
3)Likewise, there are articles that mention they are "Public Ivys", "Hidden Ivys", or "New Ivys" which are usually followed up with something about providing a similar education to the Ivy League. If USNews has issues with its rankings (with some data), I find it odd that we're entertaining the notion of some categorization devised by an author or a few authors without understanding their methodology for doing so.
4)I think Rankings by total R&D expenditures is a good starting point to "gauge STEM research activities in academia" but is there more we should consider? Does spending per faculty/student matterDoes it matter that some schools are declining while others are improving?
5) Does it matter how much NIH funding certain schools receive? Is there a way to rank funding provided by other sources?
6) Do acceptances rate matter and does that impact how well a school is regarded? Do the number of applicants matter? (Juliard comes to mind here on not having as many applicants and is unranked by USNews and other major ranking systems.)
7) Should something measurable like the freshmen-retention and graduation rate be included when considering rankings?
8) ETA: Also, should employer rankings be included in the lede? I've seen this on at least one wikipedia article and it seems like some sort of ranking system within their city or state mostly? It just seems odd to me
9) Are there other rankings by USNews or elsewhere that would be more helpful with additional context? Social Mobility? Least/Most Debt? Average amount of financial aid package covering tuition? International student population?
Wozal (talk) 01:41, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Sorry for the large texts of thoughts below:
Just to clarify: I never stated that we should continue to use "ivy league" in the lead. If the opening paragraph were to remain factual, I'm not sure it does anything. The Ivy League does not describe whether a school is public nor private nor does it describe whether it is research university or a liberal arts college. Its also implies that education around its members are equal which might be hard to prove since its original intention is that of a sports conference and there are many schools which are thought of as equally rigorous or highly regarded despite not being a member of the ivy league.
Which brings me to the next point: I'm not sure "public ivies", "little ivies" or "hidden ivies" bring anything to the table and just reinforce the notion that the ivy league are considered the top academic institutions and anything else can't be. The criteria for some of these are often so narrow that it nearly seems like a selected presorted picklist.
"According to its page, "Public Ivy" is an informal term to refer to public colleges and universities in the United States that are perceived to provide a collegiate experience on the level of Ivy League universities. There is no trademark for the term, and the list of schools associated with the classification have changed over time."
But what does it mean to provide a collegiate experience on the level of Ivy League universities? And why are we using an informal term and who is determining that?
The article goes on to clarify:
"He traveled the nation examining higher education institutions, and selected eight that were comparable to the Ivy League."
According to this (https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/how-many-universities-are-in-the-us-and-why-that-number-is-changing), there are 1,625 public colleges in the US. I find it unlikely he examined all of them. This also suggests that other models like MIT or Stanford or Chicago while ranked highly aren't considered in this model despite being closed to HYP than Brown (open curriculum) or Dartmouth (undergraduate-focused) I just fail to see what that term means when the categorization is so broad.
In the Hidden Ivies wiki: "According to Union College, "the authors contend that students who attend one of the 'Hidden Ivies' are likely to acquire critical skills or instincts, including cooperation, leadership, collaboration, mentoring, appreciating personal, religious and cultural differences, and 'learning the truth that intelligence without character, personal integrity and a working set of values can be a dangerous thing.'"
Isn't that the point of most colleges though? Is a school not allowed to be considered a highly ranked school without some sort of Ivy attached to it? With all the issues that are often thrown at USNews, why don't we have the same concerns with ivy-like titles that seem to have less clarity and transparency than other major ranking institutions?
Sidenote: I think part of the reason "ivy league" and "flagship" in the lead give me pause in is because they are often placed in infoboxes under type despite the boxes for it (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Infobox_university) not having a spot for it specifically. "General type of the institution. Include public vs. private, single-gender, for-profit status (assumed non-profit if omitted), undergraduate vs. graduate, vocational focus (e.g. business school), etc." The term "landmark" is also vague because it can be referring to the state or the school system but it's more commonly seen in public universities. Some states also don't have them. Some states have multiple. It gives an impression that these flagship colleges may have more resources or opportunities than private universities who don't use the term or other colleges which don't have that resource. It also gives an impression that flagships are easily compared. There's also at least one college that claims to be the flagship college of engineering in their state.
I think part of the reason that ivies are given so much power is because we constantly give them that power by so often comparing everyone else to them, which then others start believing the same thing. However, I think it's important to remember that colleges outside of the ivy league can be considered a top school. There are no rankings that measure prestige though which is again where my issue with that specific word come. I have no issue with the word "top" or whatever specific terms other ranking systems use.
If we are to keep rankings in the lead, I think it's important to clarify whether we're talking about top 10, top 14 (used often for law school I think) top 20, or top 50. It might also be worthwhile to consider whether we're considering only "National" and top-ranked "Liberal Arts Colleges" or whether that conversation also includes regionally ranked colleges/universities.
Wozal (talk) 06:58, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
I think the basic principle is that the content of the lead should follow standard Wikipedia guidelines: we should only be mentioning reputation if it's particularly notable and backed by solid sources. Wikipedia policy (WP:SUBJECTIVE) is that "it is sometimes permissible to note an article subject's reputation when that reputation is widespread and informative to readers". The onus is on the editor seeking to put in a comment on subjective reputation to provide sources that demonstrate that opinion about the subject is widespread, useful to readers, and not disputed. At that point, we can, per the policy linked above, say that the institution is widely considered prestigious (or similar wording). Robminchin (talk) 21:52, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Yes, exactly. Very strong sources are needed for this kind of claim, and a very small number of universities actually have the sources needed to support claims along these lines, but sources supporting such a claim do exist in that limited number of cases. I think this is a pretty straightforward consequence of WP:ASF (and thus WP:NPOV). Drevolt (talk) 01:16, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
I’m with you on a lot of this, and I think it’s good to minimize the use of squishy terms like “prestige” in all but the most extreme cases (and even then, better to avoid if possible).
However, I think it’s also important to recognize that a word like “top” is similarly vague and squishy on its own. Do we mean the top 5? The top 50? The top 500? Or does even being included in rankings at all make a university “one of the top” (since many aren’t even ranked)? Establishing an arbitrary cutoff is always going to create problems, especially since ordinary language doesn’t involve arbitrary cutoffs for such terms.
I think it’s always ideal to just avoid such wording entirely and simply report the objective facts (which is primarily the job of the rankings section). I guess I might not be opposed to a very narrow carveout for something like the consensus top 5 universities in the world (or maybe even 10), since those are the least ambiguous cases of being ranked “among the top”, but anything beyond that is way too vague to pass muster with WP:ASF. Drevolt (talk) 01:33, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
I would be opposed to Wikipedia editors deciding to create that kind of carveout using our own opinion and judgment. There are likely some instances where such cutoffs already exist and are frequently used in the literature (e.g., the "Top 14" seems to be a big deal for U.S. law schools) and it may be appropriate to mention that in the lede of the appropriate articles. But in those cases we would also need to ensure that (a) the information in the lede is supported by good, independent sources and (b) the body of the article also discusses it and does so in more detail. ElKevbo (talk) 01:40, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
Yes, we should avoid phrases like "along the top", "elite", "among the highest ranked" and all other WP:WEASEL words and phrases, unless (as with prestigious) they reflect what is actually said in high quality sources. Robminchin (talk) 05:22, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
For whatever it's worth, the top 20 is often referred at the undergraduate level. I've seen T20 be used much more than other terms that seem to be aimed at language aiming to impress. The issue there is that it almost exclusively refers to USNews rankings.
Similar to T14 programs for law school, I've also heard of Philosophical Gourmet Reports being of note for philosophy programs That might be better suited for the appropriate grad schools though. Wozal (talk) 02:24, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
I have concerns with universities needing 4 of the top rankings systems. (Besides the what makes it one of the "top ranking systems), those systems are often set out to favor research institutions.
According to ARWU's website, it states: ARWU uses six objective indicators to rank world universities, including the number of alumni and staff winning Nobel Prizes and Fields Medals, number of highly cited researchers selected by Clarivate, number of articles published in journals of Nature and Science, number of articles indexed in Science Citation Index Expanded™ and Social Sciences Citation Index™ in the Web of Science™, and per capita performance of a university. More than 2500 universities are actually ranked by ARWU every year and the best 1000 are published.(Methodology)
"
There is a lot of criteria here that a number of liberal arts colleges and universities would not care about which because the focus isn't on research. By nature, most LCs tend to be smaller and not have graduate programs which places them at a huge disadvantage for appearing on a list like this and those with similar criteria.
Wozal (talk) 02:38, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
The global rankings are very research focused, which is why they shouldn't be given alone when there are national rankings (which are generally more holistic, as measures of teaching are much more specific to national systems) available – the global rankings alone do not give a broad (and thus neutral) overview of an institution. The US national rankings either have separate tables for research institutions and liberal arts colleges (US News) or combine the two into a single table by using measures that work (in as much as rankings can be said to work) for both (WSJ/THE), but in either case they are using measures other than just research.
Robminchin (talk) 04:04, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
Frankly, we don't need to answer most of those questions as they constitute original research. Instead, editors who believe that kind of information needs to be included in an article, especially the lede of an article, need to provide good, independent, and reliable sources that explicitly support the claim. That's the core of the 2020 RfC. ElKevbo (talk) 08:34, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
Seconded. Drevolt (talk) 01:34, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
It seems that a few of the editors here are trying to rehash the WP:HIGHEREDREP discussion. That's not going to be productive — per WP:CONLEVEL, that RfC is going to override anything we might happen to decide here, and it certainly overrides discussion at individual articles.
Given that, the question we should be asking is, how do we proceed in light of the current consensus? In many of the cases above, we're talking about highly prestigious institutions, so the high-quality sources presumably exist — I would be shocked if there's nothing about e.g. Brown's reputation out there, given that I was able to find sources for much smaller institutions.
But these sources aren't particularly easy to find. When editors are coming into conflict over "do we provide the U.S. News ranking, cited to U.S. News, or do we provide nothing?" the best way to diffuse the situation is to find actually good sources and write a statement reflecting them. It's more work than a revert but probably less work than a protracted argument and will leave the article in better shape. I think we should prioritize this work for the Ivies+, since as much as I wish editors would look to our listed model articles/UNIGUIDE, in reality they just look to the Ivies, presuming (incorrectly) that they're our highest-quality articles.
Best, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 04:13, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
I think this raises the question of "do we want to". Yes, statements of prestige are allowed under the RFC, if backed by appropriate references, but that's a long way from saying we should spend our time digging up references and adding statements of prestige to articles. I don't think this will stop people adding statements of prestige based on poor references to other article; indeed it seems likely that seeing statements of prestige on other university articles is likely to encourage them to add such statements. This doesn't remove the problem, it just moves it.
I would also note that on most of the articles where I have removed statements of prestige from the lead due to not actually having sources that backed the claim, there has been little or no argument. Robminchin (talk) 01:32, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
I mean, writing an encyclopedia is hard, but if the information is due, and I'd say it very much is, then it should be added. That's what we've signed up for. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 04:22, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
It's not at all clear that putting reputation in the lead is necessary to give it due weight – that certainly wasn't what the RfC said. And the reality of writing an encyclopedia is that for most articles we're working to get to GA 'broad coverage' rather than FA 'comprehensive coverage'. Robminchin (talk) 14:12, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
When sources (including neutral ones) talk about a college, its level of prestige is almost always one of the first things mentioned. If you asked someone, "start telling me about X University," they would mention the level of prestige almost always before or along with many of the other elements we routinely include in the lead. I recognize that reputations are a hard element to include, but that's not an excuse to bury our heads in the sand and pretend that they're unimportant. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 14:34, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
Yet the RfC closing said: 'maintaining appropriate relative emphasis in lead sections (one editor noted that "only if a reputation is exceptionally good or bad or disputed is it such an important fact as to be noted in the lead section of an article," and no editor has contradicted this view)'. The current consensus is that reputational statements only rise to the level of importance where they should be included in the lead in exceptional cases. As you said earlier, rehashing the RfC here is not going to be productive. Robminchin (talk) 16:07, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
@Robminchin, fair point. I hadn't checked the RfC result in a while and see that you are right.
Many of the institutions above do have a pretty distinct reputation, so to choose a practical example with a more middling ranking, I'm curious what you'd like to see at Brandeis University. That article currently has no direct statement on reputation in its lead (although the R1 designation and a prominent alumni list, both of which are proxies in a sense), and a crufty bulleted ranking section. There's a high-quality (albeit dated) source on its reputation in the NYT article "Brandeis at 50 Is Still Searching, Still Jewish and Still Not Harvard".
My suggestion, given what you've said above, is to leave the lead alone as good enough, remove the cruft from the rankings section, retitle that section "Reputation and rankings," and add a paragraph cited to the NYT that goes something like, Brandeis' founders aspired for it to become the "Harvard of the Jews", but that vision was stymied as discrimination against Jews in higher education waned, which led many of the smartest Jewish students to attend non-Jewish elite institutions. The university's admissions today are considered selective, but it has been frustrated by its failure to rank alongside the most prestigious non-Jewish institutions. Does that sort of approach seem reasonable to you? {{u|Sdkb}} talk 17:22, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
Sorry, I thought I'd replied to this, but apparently I only thought it. That approach sounds very reasonable to me – including this sort of things in the reputation and rankings section is a very good idea, and might well help move it away from being just a rankings section. Robminchin (talk) 23:25, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

FAR for Vkhutemas

I have nominated Vkhutemas for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Z1720 (talk) 21:37, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

College of Remote and Offshore Medicine

This page is in draft form, it is a degree awarding institution on Malta. The draft has been rejected once but it looks like modifications have been made since. Would benefit from the input of people used to writing/editing higher education ages. Draft:College of Remote and Offshore Medicine 2A00:23EE:11A8:2B68:BC82:C8EE:101F:51C0 (talk) 19:28, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:32, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Preferred college ranking

What is the best source we can use for rankings for the University of Minnesota in the Minneapolis article?

What we have now: College rankings for 2023 place the school in a range of 44th to 185th (2021) for academics worldwide.[1][2][3] QS found a decline over a decade.[3] Shanghai finds excellence in ecology, business management, library & information science, and biotechnology.[1]

I used what Wikipedia calls the three "most influential and widely observed university rankings" college ranking orgs, but got a question on them. Now I'm wondering if somebody puffed up those three articles? I have looked through the RSN archives, this WikiProject, Wikipedia:College and university article advice, a B-class article according to the WikiProject: College and university rankings. Also looked at two FAs, Boston, Cleveland, and (former FA) San Francisco, none of which seems to follow a standard. Boston cites the Carnegie Classification and membership in the Association of American Universities. Cleveland and San Francisco cite US News & World Report. WP:RSP says US News & World Report is generally considered reliable. So I am tempted to go back to it despite the new WP:USCITIES guideline.

References

  1. ^ a b "University of Minnesota, Twin Cities". ShanghaiRanking. 2022. Retrieved February 19, 2023.
  2. ^ "University of Minnesota". Times Higher Education. 2023. Retrieved February 19, 2023.
  3. ^ a b "University of Minnesota Twin Cities". QS Quacquarelli Symonds. 2022. Retrieved February 19, 2023.

-SusanLesch (talk) 13:42, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

@SusanLesch, good question! Our advice page talks about rankings here and here. I think what you really ideally want, more than rankings, is high-quality sources discussing the reputation of the university. I would search the site of Minnesota's main newspaper(s) to see if there are articles that discuss the university's prestige. If the college has a book on its history, the reviews of that (on JSTOR) can be another good place to find something. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 14:20, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for your response, User:Sdkb. So you are saying I won't get an answer on this talk page? Are the sources I have used reliable and acceptable to this WikiProject? If so, we are done. If they aren't, is US News & World Report acceptable? That's an easy fix. If none of the above are acceptable, then are the Carnegie Classification and the Association of American Universities? If the answer is that none of these are acceptable, that would be the time to start digging as you suggest. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:31, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
The sources used are fine, and are identified in multiple sources as being the three major international rankings. The US News rankings of American colleges and universities are the main national rankings in the US, but their (separate) global ranking is comparatively recent and hasn't achieved the same level of recognition (not that it's unreliable, except to the extent that all rankings are subjective analyses with their own biases, just that it's less prominent). But it's best to include more than just rankings in the "reputation and rankings" section, if possible, so it would be worth searching for information on the reputation of the university. If there are certain subjects that the university is particularly known, it might be worth mentioning these as well (assuming this can be independently verified, of course). Watch out for media coverage that is not truly independent but is repeating (or paraphrasing) what the university has told them in press releases, and for claims (like something being "world famous") that require more than local coverage. When talking about rankings or reputations, make sure to follow WP:VOICE and WP:SUBJECTIVE and be clear that these are opinions of certain people or organisations (preferably named), e.g. "Is ranked in the top 200" should be accompanied by "by Times Higher Education" (or whoever), or "Is considered Minnesota's top university for wood carving by Wood Carving Today", etc. Robminchin (talk) 21:09, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
Much relieved! Thank you, User:Robminchin. You both seem interested in reputation. We have one paragraph in a city article so might not include more. For the archive in case somebody's looking later, "Quacquarelli Symonds (QS), Times Higher Education (THE) and Shanghai Ranking (the Academic Ranking of World Universities; ARWU) are considered among the most established and prominent global ranking bodies." Elsevier (a partner with QS) lists seven, and among them is US News & World Report.[1] Hope this helps.

References

  1. ^ "University rankings: A closer look for research leaders". Elsevier. August 10, 2021. Retrieved April 11, 2023.
-SusanLesch (talk) 23:39, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Armorial of Australian universities

Draft:Armorial of Australian universities needs some help. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 12:59, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Robin S. Taylor, heraldry is a fairly specialist field. I see you created Armorial of British universities, perhaps some editors there would be interested. Also you could look at Australian university articles to see who created the images for their coats of arms on Commons. TSventon (talk) 14:37, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Invitation to join discussion at Harvard University

You are invited to join a discussion at Talk:Harvard University#Non-NPOV material in the lead about whether, with reference to WP:HIGHERED REP, a statement about prestige is a fact that can be given in WP:WIKIVOICE or an opinion/reputational statement that should follow the policy on Describing aesthetic opinions and reputations. Robminchin (talk) 03:03, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Please note that "...or an opinion/reputational statement that should follow the policy on Describing aesthetic opinions and reputations" is an attempt to slant the discussion in favor of Robinmichin's own opinion; many other editors disagree with that viewpoint. ElKevbo (talk) 03:33, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I was attempting to describe the discussion by briefly presenting what appear to be the positions. I thought it was obvious that there was disagreement with that viewpoint, but I could be mistaken. Would you like to suggest better wording (and, as the other participant in this thread, would you object to the thread being deleted and replaced with improved wording)? Robminchin (talk) 04:18, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
It's done; let's just let it go. ElKevbo (talk) 04:24, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Transfer Admission Guarantee

Transfer Admission Guarantee suggests that it refers to a general concept, but the article and all the search results I've found refer specifically to an agreement between University of California, California State University, and California Community Colleges. Am I wrong? —Lights and freedom (talk ~ contribs) 03:48, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

It sounds like a specific instance of an articulation agreement (the caps in the title also imply a proper name, but sometimes things end up in title case even though they're not supposed to). Although it seems we don't have an article on articulation agreements, just on the general process of articulation. Robminchin (talk) 06:26, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Need-blind institutions

I recently created a category for need-blind institutions and added the ones listed at need-blind admission. An editor complained on my talk that not all such institutions have cited mentions of their status in the article body, so I've begun going through the category to add those where needed (currently alphabetically at "Ch"). If anyone wants to join in, feel free. There are citations for most at the need-blind admission article, so all that's needed is to write a sentence and copy that over. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 03:26, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Additional editors requested at Talk:University of Chicago

Can some editors please drop by Talk:University of Chicago and participate in the ongoing discussion about material in the lede of the article? Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 21:03, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

NACUBO Endowment data is now available on wikidata

Hi all, Two years ago, I decided that I was going to update all the infoboxes with endowment data from the then recently released NACUBO Public NTSE tables. I spent two days doing it manually, but then I had this discussion with Sdkb about how there could be a better way – invoking wikidata. He expressed interest in adding this info to wikidata; I thought it would be a nice challenge, but I did nothing about it for next two years.

Last week I decided to learn about it, and I'm happy to announce that I successfully used OpenRefine to add enire excel-sheet worth of 2022 & 2021 NACUBO endowment data to wikidata (& Fall 2021 enrollment numbers as well). Here's an exmple edit to Georgia Southwestern State University qid.

I'm posting here in case there are people interested in making automated edits to {{infobox university}} invoking endowment values from wikidata. Thanks. Kiran_891 (TALK) 03:48, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

@Kiran891, this is fantastic news! I edited the infobox sandbox so that it will fetch the Wikidata endowment value if one is present there and not provided here. I previewed it in a few articles (just change the infobox to "/sandbox" and remove the endowment field), and it seems to be mostly working, with a few quirks. They are:
  • Sometimes it doesn't fetch the most recent year. To resolve this, we could set the most recent data to preferred priority on Wikidata (with "reason for preferred rank = most recent value").
  • The autogenerated Wikidata reference has a CS1 error for a generic value in the author field. To resolve this, I'd suggest changing "author=NACUBO" to "publisher=NACUBO". (While we're at it, adding "language of work=English" and an archive link/date wouldn't hurt.)
Somewhat related to the first point, I noticed that there were a few Wikidata entries that already had endowment info, where adding the NACUBO data created a duplicate. We should try to avoid that if possible just to keep everything clean.
Once those things are resolved, and assuming others here are okay with it, we can make the change go live. At that point, any U.S. institution that doesn't have endowment info in the infobox will gain it. For the institutions that do already have the endowment field filled out, they wouldn't change, which might become an issue over time assuming that the Wikidata info is kept more up to date; how to deal with that is a bridge to cross down the road.
Courtesy pinging @Mike Peel, with whom I've previously discussed making the university infobox use Wikidata before, as this may be of interest to you.
Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 05:20, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
When the infobox in an article is set to use this, does it also display/include the year? ElKevbo (talk) 13:35, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
Yep! {{u|Sdkb}} talk 15:48, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Land acknowledgements

Infoalien (talk · contribs) recently added level-2 sections on land acknowledgements to the articles on various North American universities. I reverted these additions, and they restored them in two cases.

Infoalien, when there are editorial disagreements on Wikipedia, we follow the bold, revert, discuss cycle. Your addition of the sections was a bold edit, my undoing them was a revert, and we're now at the discussion stage, where we try to find consensus on what to do (and the articles should be left in the status quo state until then).

My view is that these sections are largely not appropriate for Wikipedia. We are bound by due weight considerations to follow how secondary sources discuss university histories, and currently, such sources tend to begin those histories at the inception of the institution, with only brief mention of the broader cultural conditions at the time of their founding (which would include oppression of Native Americans). Including information about the Native American history of the university's region, while leaving out other information on the history of the region not directly relevant to the university, solely as a way to highlight or redress the injustice would be an attempt to right great wrongs, which is not allowed.

The exception to this would be where Native American history is directly relevant to the university itself, not just to the region. I could see this being the case for some very old U.S. institutions, e.g. Dartmouth College (originally founded to train Native Americans as Christian missionaries), or for many institutions in countries like Australia. Even so, in those cases, the information should be presented in the history section. It also must be presented neutrally — Wikipedia itself cannot make a land acknowledgement, since that is a political act intended to redress a historical wrong. Our role is only to present the history and (where due) to discuss the actions an institution has taken to grapple with its history. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 16:10, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Munger Hall, proposed dormitory at University of California, Santa Barbara

I recently created an article for the proposed Munger Hall. Any help with expansion would be appreciated. Thriley (talk) 20:56, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

@Thriley, interesting article! A fair-use image of a rendering would be a good addition. I think it would also definitely benefit from having a defined lead that captures in more general terms the controversy over it. Some of the current phrasing, e.g. "the dorm will x" goes against WP:CRYSTAL; I'd prefer to see that changed to "is planned to". Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 21:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
Thank you. I'll be fixing it up and adding more over the next few days. I am debating over the best way to section it out. Feel free to trim or add if you like. It will make quite a fun DYK! Best, Thriley (talk) 21:20, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
Hmm, for a dorm, I'd go with "History," "Design," and "Reception" sections. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 21:22, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Forward College draft page

Hello everyone, Forward College is a new university established in September 2021 with campuses in Lisbon, Paris and Berlin. I would like to request help to review the draft page of Forward College and ask for any advice you have. It's been a while that we are waiting for approval. Thank you in advance. Juliafariasf (talk) 16:24, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Seton Hall University

Seton Hall University has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Onegreatjoke (talk) 18:59, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

FAR for Tech Tower

I have nominated Tech Tower for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm Talk 02:37, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

THE(S) university blurbs

Wibool Piyawattanametha#Awards and honors tells us "2016 - Recognized on Times Higher Education Ranking Website as a notable KMITL Alumni." Putting aside the singular singularity of "Alumni", I was surprised to see THES recognizing notable alumni, so I clicked on the cited reference. Fair enough, this does say "Notable alumni include Wibool Piyawattanametha who was selected as being among the Top 40-Under-40 Young Scientists in the world by the World Economic Forum." It's a long time since I last read a copy of what I learn is now THE (it was THES in my day); but various aspects of the prose surprise me. WP:RSN has over the years had a fair amount of discussion of these and other university rankings, but I'm not here concerned about the meaningfulness of these indices; rather, I'm interested in the accompanying text. Does it look "editorial" to youse? (It looks advertorial, or "user-generated", to me.) -- Hoary (talk) 08:14, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Incidentally, I find Times Higher Education#Ownership peculiarly somniferous. Something wrong with it, or with me? -- Hoary (talk) 08:20, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
It doesn't seem to pass WP:DUE so I don't think that we need to even address reliability. In this specific example, this brief mention is nothing like an "award or honor." ElKevbo (talk) 11:27, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
True, ElKevbo. But aside from the case of this particular claimed "award or honor", the flavor of the text -- combined with the impression I got from Times Higher Education#Ownership (before dozing off) that THE has over the last few years been passed from one obscure syndicate eager to make money off it to another -- made me wonder if the texts accompanying its "rankings" were mere advertorials. Well, it seems that they are. This is clearer from another example, the entry for University of Macau, from which I quote:
  • UM has become a leading and the only public comprehensive university in Macao
  • Some of our programmes are internationally recognized: [...]
  • UM strives to deliver research excellence with support from the central government, Macao community and our faculty: [...]
  • Looking ahead, UM will constantly improve and innovate, to become an outstanding university rooted in Macao, integrated into the Greater Bay Area, geared towards the whole country and the world; an outstanding university that makes a contribution to Macao, China, and humanity.
-- Hoary (talk) 22:57, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Education § Applied learning

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Education § Applied learning. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 21:20, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Free University of Berlin#Requested move 30 June 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Free University of Berlin#Requested move 30 June 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (I will not see your reply if you don't mention me) 03:03, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Input request at Talk:University of Arkansas about the addition of tables listing student government leaders

There is a discussion at Talk:University of Arkansas about the addition of tables listing student government leaders; additional input and opinions are requested. Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 13:24, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Nigerian Turkish International Colleges#Requested move 29 July 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Nigerian Turkish International Colleges#Requested move 29 July 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE 20:36, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Alumni listing dispute at Swarthmore College

There's a dispute over which criteria (if any) should be used to list notable alumni at the main Swarthmore College article. For the last few years as a major article maintainer I've been using number of interlanguage links as a proxy for relative importance but not everyone is happy with that. see the relevant history and the discussion on its talk page. Any comments should go to the latter location. Graham87 07:12, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Just took a look at the dispute @Graham87. You're right in trimming down bloat and an oversized alumni section, but I don't think using interlanguage links is a good marker for importance. In the case of a school like Swarthmore, it might be worth looking into something like an h-index to measure the importance of including an alumnus. GuardianH (talk) 14:43, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll look into it ... even though that would obviously disadvantage people who didn't make their name in academia. But it could be used in conjunction with other measures, at least. Graham87 16:05, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
The h-index only really has meaning within specific fields, comparing academics in different fields (or even sub-fields) is very dubious, and by the time you're looking at who goes onto a listing in an article like this it's probably completely useless. Robminchin (talk) 17:44, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
yeah I agree h-index wouldn't be super useful. Honestly what you have here seems totally fine to me. It reads like a good list and the list of Swarthmore College people page captures everyone anyway. Personally my measure should at least be "oh interesting that X went to Y College" not "who the heck is X" unless the college/school is really really struggling to come up with half a dozen famous people. Jjazz76 (talk) 04:25, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:WMTV (College of William & Mary)#Requested move 15 August 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:WMTV (College of William & Mary)#Requested move 15 August 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 05:41, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Relevant RfC at Wikipedia talk:Notability about notability and embedded lists

You are invited to participate in an RfC at Wikipedia talk:Notability asking if relevant notability guidelines should be modified to clarify that notability can be used as a criterion for inclusion in embedded lists. If it is passed, it may result in changes to Wikipedia:College and university article advice. ElKevbo (talk) 01:24, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Relevant recently closed discussion

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Donald Trump § Discussion to change consensus #18 (alma mater in infobox). It'd be nice if they'd let us know, but then again, they had plenty of participants (as well as the trademark level-headedness characteristic of the topic area[sarcasm]), so perhaps we did better to miss it. But it might have some precedent-setting value. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 22:22, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Query about alumni categories

Should alumni who are members of sub-categories be removed from the main alumni category?

E.g. if an individual is listed under Category:Truman Bulldogs men's basketball players, would that mean they should not be listed under Category:Truman State University alumni?

I would have assumed they should be listed under both and that the "alumni" category should be non-diffusing (WP:DUPCAT). If nothing else, someone could have played for the team without graduating. Also, diffusing the alumni category means that anyone wishing to browse alumni for a particular institution has to search every subcategory.

Any inputs appreciated. McPhail (talk) 08:09, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

I think you're probably right, but not necessarily for the reason you state :)
"Category: Truman Bulldogs men's basketball players" is a category "for men's varsity basketball players at Truman State University". Thir includes (at least potentially) both current and former students. As the alumni categori is for former students and graduates, the two categories are overlapping rather than the Truman Bulldogs category being fully contained within alumni. It is, therefore, not actually a subcategory of alumni, just a linked category, so WP:DIFFUSE does not come into play.
On the other hand, an "alumni who are professional sportspeople" category (or "alumni in politics", etc.) would be a subcategory of alumni, and arguably should be diffused, so I don't think we want to say generally that alumni categories should be non-diffusing. Robminchin (talk) 14:06, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
That sounds reasonable (although I'd still expect the basketball players category to be a subcategory of the alumni one). I'd also just quickly note that I interpret "alumni" to include anyone who formerly attended an institution as a matriculated student, so that would include people who dropped out (but not those who just spent a semester there on an exchange program, which would not be WP:DEFINING). {{u|Sdkb}} talk 14:41, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

I recommend diffusing and removing the upper level cat, even if an alumni who also played on a sports team covered in a subcat. Many of the college categories are getting overpopulated, especially the large universities. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 18:47, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Help with alumni category diffusing

There are several alumni categories in the United States that are overpopulated and would greatly benefit from some work in diffusing. I would greatly appreciate any help with this effort. Two of the big ones are Category:Indiana University alumni and Category:University of Illinois alumni. These upper level cats represent the university "system", and the articles in these cats require diffusing into the specific locations or college. Same goes for the faculty categories. Thanks!

The ones that are largely done so far are:

FieldMarine (talk) 23:10, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Are board members faculty members?

I'm wondering what the consensus is (or whether there's a consensus) on whether it's appropriate to add the category "X University faculty" to the article of a person who is a member of the board of directors (or governors or whatever other equivalent) of X University. Faculty#Academia describes faculty as "the lecturers of a given university." Obviously this would exclude board members but I'm not convinced that that one definition is necessarily decisive. What are your thoughts? Dennis C. Abrams (talk) 20:31, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I personally have left those in the upper level “people” category, but perhaps if there are numerous in the people cat, there could be an administration cat or something like that. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 21:22, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
In the U.S., most board members - typically "trustees" but some institutions have different terminology - are definitely not faculty members. They're not administrators or staff, either - they inhabit their own, unique category and have a special relationship with their institution.
However, some institutions do explicitly have one or more seats on their governing board reserved for a faculty member who will represent the faculty and of course those specific people are, during their term on the board, both faculty members and trustees (or whatever specific term is used there). It's also possible in some cases for a faculty member to be elected or appointed to their institution's board without occupying a seat specifically for a faculty member or being asked to represent the faculty; I think this is pretty rare but it can happen if the board's governing documents allow it. ElKevbo (talk) 22:18, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
The faculty could certainly be taken to include the senior academic management of the university (so the president, provost, deans, etc.) and would obviously include any faculty who had been elected as representatives on the board, but certainly not external board members, and probably not senior non-academics (CFO, CIO, COO, etc.) who might be on the board unless they also hold an academic appointment (e.g., a chief marketing officer who is also a professor in marketing at the business school). Robminchin (talk) 22:38, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
But, in essence, the board members are only faculty members if they are also in a position that would be considered faculty – there's nothing about being on the board that makes someone faculty. Robminchin (talk) 22:41, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
I personally think board as a subcat is too narrow, but a structure for it already exists at Category:Trustees by university or college in the United States. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 22:45, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Standardizing names

At WikiProject:Fraternities and Sororites we have gradually been updating article names that are outliers with other similar articles. Our most recent project potentially crosses over with WP:UNI, so I thought I would consult before making any changes. The issue is best seen by looking at the range of article titles under Category:Lists_of_chapters_of_United_States_student_societies_by_college. Any objections to moving articles to the format: List of XYZ College fraternities and sororities or XYZ College student organizations? Although some members of our WP prefer List of fraternties and sororities at XYZ College), the shorter version better fits Wikipedia guidelines. Also, a given university might have any number of lists--making the format List of XYZ College... the most helpful for users. Rublamb (talk) 16:17, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Seeking advice regarding separate pages for Mills College after Northeastern acquisition

Hi everyone, I'm brand new to Wikipedia so please bear with me. On Mills College at Northeastern University someone began to discuss making separate pages for the entities pre and post merger/acquisition. I am currently a student here and recently decided to look into the issue further. I took the issue to the Wikipedia Discord to get further guidance, and was advised to bring the discussion here to get more eyes on the discussion. I am making this post here because the discussion in the WikiProject California is relevant to this WikiProject. Please take a look at it! Straight.Up.Sean (talk) 20:58, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

My feeling is that general pattern has been that where an institution continues but is taken over, the article covers both pre- and post-acquisition, but that where there is a loss of institutional identity into a merged institution a new article has been created. For example, there are separate articles for St Thomas's Hospital Medical School, United Medical and Dental Schools of Guy's and St Thomas' Hospitals and GKT School of Medical Education, and similarly for University of Wales, Lampeter and University of Wales Trinity Saint David but the earlier name of St David's College, Lampeter is just a re-direct to University of Wales, Lampeter. In the same manner, Manchester New College is a redirect to Harris Manchester College, Oxford, the name it took when it became a college of the University of Oxford. The Royal Welsh College of Music & Drama article covers the college through being an independent institution, a college of the University of Wales (a federal university where the colleges were independent corporations), a college of the University of Glamorgan and (following a merger of that parent university) a college of the University of South Wales. If a new institution takes over the campus but there is a loss of institutional continuity, then the pattern is for a new article to be created, e.g. Richmond Theological College and Richmond American University London or Durham College, Oxford and Trinity College, Oxford.
So there are three possible patterns:
1) Merger/acquisition resulting in a loss of institutional identity and a new identity for the merged institution -> new article
2) Marger/acquisition with a continuity of institutional identity -> single article
3) Closure and re-use of campus by a new institution -> new article
Looking at how this is described on the Mills College at Northeastern University article, I would say this is pattern 2 – the institution that was Mills College is still clearly identifiable as Mills College at Northeastern University, so there is no need for a new article.
Looking at the talk page there, I see that alumnae have also been discussed. My take on this is that the status of Mill College at Northeastern University as the continuation of Mills College means that alumnae of Mills College are correctly listed as alumnae on the Mills College at Northeastern University page, just as alumnae of the Young Ladies Seminary would have been correctly listed on the Mills College page.: it's the same institution under a new name. However, the alumnae do not become alumnae of Northeastern University so shouldn't be included in the main Northeastern University article. Robminchin (talk) 21:53, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
Can you clarify the difference between pattern 1 and pattern 2? Based on recent rebranding on social media, my peers and I believe Northeastern will end up branding Mills College at Northeastern University similarly to Northeastern University – London. As such, if Mills College at Northeastern University is renamed to "Northeastern University in Oakland" or "Northeastern University – Oakland" to fall in line with the London campus branding, would both entities fall under pattern 1, both under pattern 2, or would they differ? Straight.Up.Sean (talk) 22:27, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
The difference is (to my mind) whether there's direct institutional continuity – you can point at Northeastern University – London and see that it was New College of the Humanities, before it was taken over (and, in fact, you can look it up at Companies House and see that it is legally the same corporation).
The difference between what I called pattern 1 and pattern 2 is that in pattern 1 there isn't that direct continuity (even if there is sometimes a legal continuity) – normally because two (or more) similar institutions have merged, such as the mergers between medical schools in my earlier example, two form a single entity that you can't say is simply a continuation of a single pre-merger institution.
If, for example, Northeastern were to acquire a second Oakland college and merge that with Mills to form a single institution called Northeastern University – Oakland, you would not be able to point at that institution and say it was once Mills College, because it would have been formed by a merger between Mills College and another college, so a new article would be called for separate from either of the two existing articles. But if NEU just renames Mills College as Northeastern University – Oakland, there's still that clear continuity. Robminchin (talk) 00:52, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

The American College of Greece Wikipedia Page

Good day to all,

I am a member of the marketing team of the American College of Greece. Our page has been "reduced" to a stub. The content editor (Gnkgr) who made the change noted in the talk page that "Due to the fact that the article looked like a corporate brochure and was almost exclusively based on self-authored promotional sources and press releases, contents were cut to what can be supported by the sources that were impartial and reliable."

It is true that some of the text has been overworked and we have rectified this.

Our wiki page was based as content and layout to a number of pages of US based institutions - I indicatively mention the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babson_College, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Notre_Dame, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeastern_University, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_College, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PennWest_Clarion, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockton_University, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rider_University, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_North_Florida, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Utah

All the above do have as sources pages from their own websites. I would like to ask why in the above cases this acceptable and in our case is not.

Also, we are reworking the article and adding as many external sources (mainly coming from media). The article is currently in sandbox mode.

As I am new to editing Wikipedia articles, any input as what to do next will be highly appreciated.

Thank you. Marinosk (talk) 10:44, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Demographics visuals

I've seen a lot of visual charts of student demographics in U.S. university articles, which appear to have been added by @Sqldf03 in a run last year. These are nice, but one change I'd suggest is using pie charts rather than bar charts, since pie charts are better suited to breaking down proportions of a whole. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 19:46, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Proposed for deletion (PROD): Arkansas State University Paragould

FYI, the article Arkansas State University Paragould has been proposed for deletion (WP:PROD). The first sentences summarize the subject this way:

The nominator wrote this summary of their concerns:

  • "No indication of notability (proposed by Jacona)"

If you agree or disagree with deletion, there are instructions on the deletion notice for what to do.

Thanks,

--A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 03:19, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Proposed for deletion (PROD): Black River Technical College

FYI, the article Black River Technical College has been proposed for deletion (WP:PROD). The first sentences summarize the subject this way:

The nominator wrote this summary of their concerns:

If you agree or disagree with deletion, there are instructions on the deletion notice for what to do.

Thanks,

--A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 03:25, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Universal Ai University

Could folks here take a look at Universal Ai University? Recently moved from Universal Business School: apparently they've recently expanded to a full university, and have chosen a name according to the zeitgeist (reminds me a little of Long Blockchain Corp). The article has been a hotbed of COI and promotional editing, but the school was probably notable, and I guess the university might also be. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 09:37, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Spinixster (chat!) 01:12, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Southern Adventist University

Southern Adventist University has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:06, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

National University of San Marcos

Hi everyone, I work mainly at this page. Just to draw your attention to the above article, which appears to be about a pretty important university (genuinely, not just according to its Wiki article) but is in a truly terrible state. I figured members of this Wikiproject might have some idea where to start fixing it! Jdcooper (talk) 04:20, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lists § Should Template:Dynamic list be used in sections that also have Template:Main?

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lists § Should Template:Dynamic list be used in sections that also have Template:Main?. Notifying you all because this will affect basically every university page that has a noted people section. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 01:31, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to move subcategories of Category:Alumni by university or college in the United Kingdom

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 December 29 § Category:Alumni by university or college in the United Kingdom. Ham II (talk) 09:34, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Southern University and A&M College#Requested move 4 January 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Southern University and A&M College#Requested move 4 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 22:15, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Ohio State University#Requested move 8 January 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Ohio State University#Requested move 8 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 23:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

Naming articles

I am working on articles for defunct institutions that are redlinked in a related WP project. Some of these institutions went through several name changes. Do I go with the name that was in use the longest, the name that is redlinked, the founding name, the last name in use, or the name most commonly listed in the sources that I find? I know the last name in use seems to be in keeping with our practice for active institutions, but that is often not a commonly used name. I do create redirects for the various names. Rublamb (talk) 02:56, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I'd look to Wikipedia:Article titles for guidance as a start. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 03:07, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
There is also some guidance at Wikipedia:College and university article advice#Naming conventions. Choose a name following WP:CRITERIA and create redirects for other names, then the article can be moved if a consensus for a different name emerges. TSventon (talk) 13:09, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Template talk:Infobox university rankings § Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2024

 You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:Infobox university rankings § Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2024. This discussion needs more input as the template editnotice requires affirmative consensus for changes. Liu1126 (talk) 00:24, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Input requested at Talk:California Baptist University about new "Controversy" section in article

Two editors disagree about the inclusion of a new "Controversy" section of California Baptist University. A discussion is already underway in the Talk page; additional opinions and input would be appreciated. ElKevbo (talk) 22:55, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:RMIT University#Requested move 27 January 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:RMIT University#Requested move 27 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:08, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Notability Colleges/University

What are the rules on Notability on Public Colleges and Univerities? (specifically Kenai Peninsula College (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kenai_Peninsula_College&oldid=1160357705&redirect=no) before redirect) Naraht (talk) 23:47, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Naraht, see WP:NSCHOOL and WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES. Kenai Peninsula College seems to be part of the University of Alaska Anchorage, so I think it would need to meet GNG to justify an article. TSventon (talk) 00:14, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for University of Central Florida

University of Central Florida has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 03:32, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:EUCLID (university)#Requested move 8 February 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:EUCLID (university)#Requested move 8 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 16:54, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 February 15 § Category:Universities and colleges by type

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 February 15 § Category:Universities and colleges by type. Sdkb talk 16:22, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Showcase articles

Some of our showcase articles are no longer good or featured, and so should probably be removed from this list:

There is a shortage of GA/FA institutional articles outside of the US and the UK. I found two, but both have been GAs for over a decade without review so probably need looking at:

For buildings and features (replacing The Green (Dartmouth College)). I suggest including Aula Magna (Central University of Venezuela), which was listed as a GA in June 2019 and would increase the geographic diversity of the showcase articles, the other buildings and features I could see as GA or FA were in the US or UK. Robminchin (talk) 18:10, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Pruning the articles is certainly in order. I defer to your judgement on which swaps to make. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 19:29, 5 February 2024 (UTC)
I've pruned the articles and put in Aula Magna. I'll try to find time to look at the two institutions I mentioned before and see if they look like 'showcase' articles. Robminchin (talk) 21:11, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Ostbayerische Technische Hochschule Amberg-Weiden

Hi!

This morning I created the article Ostbayerische Technische Hochschule Amberg-Weiden. I thought, the title is a good idea, because on [1] the university calls itself like this. When I added the article to the category Category:Universities and colleges in Bavaria I recognized, that probably "Amberg-Weiden University of Applied Sciences" would be a better idea. I am not sure, can you help me? Thank you very much in advance! Bebbe (talk) 08:49, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

The guideline is that the name used should be the the name commonly used in English language reliable sources. As names aren't always translated, this may well be the native language name rather than its translation. If there is no established usage in English sources, you should use the common name in the native language. This may well be the case here – it looks to me, on a vary quick search, like the German name is used in some places and various translations in others, without one translation being used consistently. It's probably a good idea to give a translation of the German name in the lead of the article so readers know what it means. It's probably worth creating re-directs at some of the more common English translations as well, to help people find the article. Robminchin (talk) 16:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
Dear Robminchin, thank you very very much for your reply, this helps me a lot. Two questions remain:
Once more: Thank you in advance for your help!!! --Bebbe (talk) 06:49, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Additional input requested for two articles

Two articles about U.S. institutions have recently seen a lot of activity and may benefit from some additional editors.

  • Emporia State University: In December, GlennenGhost added a bunch of new material to the article that painted the university in a negative light. Since then, Fourmile45 has made many edits to the article. Some of the edits are uncontroversial improvements but some edits have also removed or significantly altered what was added in December. I'm not entirely sure what to make of all of that so some additional eyes and brains would be appreciated.
  • Northwestern College (Iowa)‎: Skielark is a new editor who has disclosed on their User page that they are being paid by the college to edit its article. To my eye, most of their edits seem to be productive but they are making a *lot* of edits so I'd really like a second opinion.

Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 00:34, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Seton Hall reports#Requested move 28 March 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Seton Hall reports#Requested move 28 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 13:12, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:College of Arts and Sciences#Requested move 12 April 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:College of Arts and Sciences#Requested move 12 April 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 01:54, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:College of William & Mary#Requested move 11 April 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:College of William & Mary#Requested move 11 April 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 01:55, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Input Requested for one article

One article about Catherine Emihovich (the 12th dean of the university of Florida) has seen a lot of action lately. The editors name is @Shane emihovich and It says they have a close connection with her so additional editors would be nice to help out and make sure its biased.

Thanks! 2600:1700:A9D1:BAF0:E96D:4629:9499:3876 (talk) 23:33, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Additional input requested at Talk:Indiana University Bloomington

Can we get some fresh eyes on Talk:Indiana University Bloomington, specifically the newest section discussing a contested addition? Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 22:49, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

List of universities and colleges in the State of Palestine, which have been damaged or detroyed?

Hi all

I notice that this page has a list of universities and colleges in Gaza and there are indiviudal articles for most of them. My assumption is this list is out of date and the individual articles are also out of date given that Israel has destroyed or damaged all universities in Gaza. I don't know enough about the topic to do a good job but these are the sources I found:

Thanks

John Cummings (talk) 16:27, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

With the sources you've found, I think you're as prepared as anyone to update that list and its entries. The inclusion of the coat of arms of Palestine and "State of" in the title makes me wary that there may be some non-neutral bias toward trying to establish Palestine as a state. Every educational institution in Gaza probably needs a sentence or paragraph in its history section discussing what happened to it during the war. Sdkb talk 21:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Tbilisi Spiritual Seminary#Requested move 15 April 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Tbilisi Spiritual Seminary#Requested move 15 April 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ❯❯❯ Raydann(Talk) 21:21, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Third opinion requested

A third opinion is requested in a discussion between two editors at Talk: University of Cambridge#Endowment size. Robminchin (talk) 01:57, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Category:Union Theological Seminary (New York City) has been nominated for discussion

Category:Union Theological Seminary (New York City) has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether it complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Graham (talk) 19:06, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

University system alumni and faculty cats

Should the alumni and faculty cats for a university system such as University of Wisconsin System be made into container cats so all the articles must be diffused into the different colleges or are there too many exceptions to make this useful? For example, Category:University of Wisconsin alumni or Category:State University of New York faculty would be container cats. One issue is some of the subcats for colleges would have small numbers, which may raise objections. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 12:31, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Not a category expert, but I'd say that we should always be categorizing someone by the specific school they went to, so a diffusion tag seems appropriate. Sdkb talk 15:14, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
They should have relevant subcategories but be aware that not every bio will have sources that stop to make clear exactly which component they were in. You also have the issue of people who were at the institution before it became a system (e.g. Wisconsin) plus outside the US the importance of universities vis a vis component colleges can vary widely, sometimes even within the same institution. Timrollpickering (talk) 19:10, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Someone at UW-Madison before UW became a system should still be categorized under UW-Madison, I'd say — it's undergone a bureaucratic/name change, but the school itself is still the defining element. Sdkb talk 20:10, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Looking at List of people associated with the University of London of List of University of Calcutta people, for example, there are a number of people for which the specific school is unknown, which would carry over into any categorisation. Even with the US, it might not be possible to tell (to continue the example above) if someone graduated from UW-Madison if the source only gives UW and no graduation date.
As WP:DIFFUSE is a general rule, people whose specific school is known should probably already be diffused rather than placed in the upper category. It might be better, therefore, to use {{Category diffuse}} rather than {{Container category}}. Robminchin (talk) 20:42, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
An additional confusion is that some institutions are organised so that someone can be an alum of a specific school but not of the parent federal institution. Many people attended University College London (or other London colleges) in the 19th century without ever matriculating in the University of London (Mahatma Ghandi being probably the most famous example), so it's not clear that diffusion is even possible in such cases. Sometimes institutions have left a federal arrangement to become independent (e.g., the University of Roehampton, Imperial College, Newcastle University, or the University of Dundee) or have moved from one federal arrangement to another (e.g., Regent's Park College, Oxford, part of the University of London 1901–1927). All of these would probably have to be considered non-diffusing as they aren't simply sub-categories. Robminchin (talk) 20:58, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Current discrepency between Wikipedia Guidelines

There is currently an inconsistency between the criteria on this page Wikipedia:College and university article advice with: 

"In general, most legitimate colleges and universities are notable and should be included on Wikipedia."

and the page on Notability 

"All universities, colleges and schools, including high schools, middle schools, primary (elementary) schools, and schools that only provide a support to mainstream education must either satisfy the notability guidelines for organizations (i.e., this page), the general notability guideline, or both. For-profit educational organizations and institutions are considered commercial organizations and must satisfy those criteria. (See also WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES.)"

This discrepancy has led to several university articles to be deleted as can be exemplified List of universities in Ecuador at some point most if not all the Universities had an article. I believe this divergance in criteria is leading to Systemic bias at least with regards to higher education in Ecuador. I've proposed to translate the existing articles for universities in Ecuador found in wikipedia.es, but wouldn't want to go through that process if they are going to be deleted for notability. HarveyPrototype (talk) 20:49, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

A couple of sentences further on, the article advice says: "This notability advice is an application of the general notability guideline to the articles this project covers, not a replacement of said guideline. Hence the advice is not intended to lend additional support to deletion discussions." The opening sentence is simply an observation, not a notability criteron, so there is no divergence. The general notability guideline does say that: "Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media, and in any language." If there is significant coverage of universities in Ecuador in Spanish-language sources (which still need to be reliable and independent), this can be used to establish notability.
However, I just looked through the red links at List of universities in Ecuador, and only three of them were previously deleted – most have never existed. The ones that were deleted were due to them being promotional, not (specifically) because of a lack of notability, so the notability guidelines don't appear to be the issue here. The most recent deletion is also lacking an article on the Spanish language Wikipedia, which appears to have been repeatedly deleted (and is now creation protected) due to being promotional (see [2]). It looks like there's no systemic bias, just the normal rules against promotional content being applied. Robminchin (talk) 21:17, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
Hello @Robminchin
Thank you for your feed back.
I will proceed to update List of universities in Ecuador with the information on Universidades de Ecuador which has a better distribution of the current situation of universities in Ecuador.
I am an Alumnus of Universidad Del Pacífico - Ecuador the article mentioned as the most recent deletion. I wrote the article in 2009 a 6 years after graduating, I'll admit that the article at the time was copy of the blurb used on the universities web page, which at the time was marked as NPOV and corrected. I then used the existing articles at the time (which is the reason that in my mind the list had more blue links) to format and correct the article. The deleted article is consistent with Past Practices, and from checking the current entries kept the same format. I still recieve the Alumni Newsletter so if there was something relevant that I could source, I did.
I would appreciate input to understand how the deleted article which as per requet was duly refferenced with sources available online, differs from say Politecnica Salesiana University which isn't sourced or Universidad Técnica Particular de Loja which is just a list of the careers offered. HarveyPrototype (talk) 03:48, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
I wasn't part of that deletion discussion, but from what was written it sounds like the nomination was due to the tone of the article appearing promotional rather than that the institution failed the notability criteria. A possible question over notability was implied by pointing out that that references did not provide significant coverage, but that was "in addition" to the main issue of the article appearing promotional. Further discussion did talk about notability, and no sources were provided to demonstrate that the institution was notable.
You should take care with the reliability and independence of the sources as well as their depth of coverage – the alumni newsletter wouldn't be considered an independent source, for example, but it might point you to news stories that would be independent sources. That the article was originally based on the blurb from the university's web page would also have been an issue, because of copyright, but it looks like that wasn't mentioned!
One of the frequently referenced principles on Wikipedia is WP:Other Stuff Exists. This says, in a nutshell, that you shouldn't worry (too much) about what other stuff is out there that maybe also should be deleted – each page stands on its own merits. I'd also note that a page that is considered to be promotional is far more likely to fall under WP:Blow it up and start over than an unreferenced stub – making it much more likely that a promotional article will be nominated for deletion, with its notability then being questioned, than an inoffensive stub. It also makes it less likely that people will spend much time and effort defending it (and that there is more than one Universidad del Pacifico in Latin America can also complicate finding sources).
Having said that, a quick Google News search for '"Universidad Del Pacifico" Ecuador' throws up results from reliable independent sources such as El Universo[3] and Times Higher Education[4] that are specifically about the institution rather than passing references and so should count as significant coverage. Unfortunately, it seems these (and other sources thrown up by that search) were not brought to the attention of the deletion discussion.
If a university is up for deletion, it's always acceptable to post a neutral message on the talk page here to say that it's taking place (see various notices above for examples) and link to the discussion. Robminchin (talk) 15:57, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Once again thank you for your feedback. As you mentioned the Alumni Newsletter was never used as a source, but relevant information from the newsletter was researched and sourced respectively. I understand that the sources weren't brough up during the deletion discussion, this is because I took it as a given that the sources were cited within the article.
Would you recomend that I contact the admin that deleted the discussion and request that it be relisted onto this project in order to get more insight onto the deletion discussion? HarveyPrototype (talk) 03:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Doctor of Nursing Practice § NPOV issues regarding educational requirements

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Doctor of Nursing Practice § NPOV issues regarding educational requirements. Wikipedialuva (talk) 04:24, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Culinary Institute of America request

Hi editors, I'm Robin, here on behalf of The Culinary Institute of America as part of my work with Beutler Ink. I posted an edit request up on the school's article Talk page to update some of the statistical information in the article, would anyone here be interested in reviewing it? Cheers, BINK Robin (talk) 22:39, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It looks like @Ɱ was the one that brought that article to GA status. they might be interested in looking at the edit request if they're willing to come out of their retirement (and we hope they will). Sdkb talk 06:06, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Assistance requested at North Idaho College

Can someone else please take a look at the recent edit history of North Idaho College and the related discussion in Talk:North Idaho College? Two editors disagree about the inclusion of some material and would benefit from input from other editors. Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 21:11, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Help Formating

On the page List of universities in Ecuador I can't get the images to stay to the right and the table to the left in order to mimic the page in [spanish] --HarveyPrototype (talk) 05:30, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:VPT may be a better venue to get technical help. For what it's worth, the Spanish version looks pretty miserable on my current computer - the images are all stacked at the top of the article and then the table is below it. ElKevbo (talk) 21:13, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for the input, it seems that when tab isn't occupying the full screen that's what it looks like.
I was editing with two screens side by side and that made it look terrible. HarveyPrototype (talk) 03:26, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Doctor of Philosophy#Requested move 24 May 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Doctor of Philosophy#Requested move 24 May 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Robminchin (talk) 03:04, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

When should an institution that is closing be added to the proper disestablishment category?

There seems to be disagreement among editors about when an institution that is in the process of being closing should be added to the appropriate disestablishment category. Here are two recent examples:

All of these editors are editing in good faith. No one disputes that these institutions are in the process of closing. There is, however, disagreement about when it's appropriate to place these articles, and presumably others in similar situations, into the appropriate disestablishment category. So I think that is the question on the table: When is it appropriate to place an article about a college or university that is closing into the appropriate disestablishment category?

Personally, I don't think it's appropriate to do this until the institution has actually closed. Even after the last class has been taught and the last class has graduated, there is still significant work that usually takes months - ensuring that teach out plans are carried out, transitioning institutional records to the party who will be responsible for maintaining them, closing out financial records, etc. During that time, the institution still exists as a corporate entity even though it does so in a very different state than it did when it was a fully functioning educational institution. So I don't think it's correct to say that it's been completely disestablished at that point.

Other editors who have been directly involved in these edits should have received an automatic notice since I linked to their user account above and I welcome their perspectives and recommendations. And other editors are also invited to share their thoughts and advice. ElKevbo (talk) 15:21, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for posting this question. I guess the answer depends on whether one thinks of "disestablishment" as a done-deal or as a process. In the cases of Wells College and Goddard College -- two institutions that are in the process of closing in 2024, I would think that it would be value-added to readers to indicate that they were (being) disestablished. Why wait until the last door is closed, the last light turned off, the last bill paid? It might be years... Kind regards, DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 15:42, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
For me, it's natural to interpret these categories as being about institutions that have been disestablished, not institutions that have been or are in the process of being disestablished. But I don't ever work with categories, much less these specific categories. Is there any established practice for their usage or any relevant documentation or history in how they are used? ElKevbo (talk) 16:33, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Not that I'm aware of with disestablishment categories. We do have clear precedent with the opposite though: categorizing things that will start happening in the future, like Category:2028 Summer Olympics.
Of course this assumes the "almost certain to take place" exception is met in WP:CRYSTALBALL. But even that's not full proof: the 2020 Olympics ended up being held in 2021. RevelationDirect (talk) 12:32, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
  • I would favor adding categories as soon as there are reliable sources that a end of classes is planned by a certain date and concrete steps are being taken (like a teach-out plan).
The WP:CRYSTALBALL section of the content policy wants to avoid speculation but has a pretty clear exception: "Individual scheduled or expected future events should be included only if the event is notable and almost certain to take place".
In general, categories need to be WP:DEFINING and I can hardly think of anything more defining than a school closing next month! And the point of categories in general is to aid reader navigation and it seems likely that someone looking at the Wells College article might wonder what other colleges are closing this year.
Thanks for opening this discussion. I look forward to other viewpoints. - RevelationDirect (talk) 01:42, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Note that I added a neutral notice over at Wikipedia talk:Categorization to encourage more viewpoints. RevelationDirect (talk) 01:57, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
@Wizzito: Pinging you to make sure you see this discussion. ElKevbo (talk) 03:39, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
This is a great discussion and I'm glad we are having it. I usually tend to try and copy-edit condense sometimes add to colleges that are closing and I know there is lots of back and forth on this. My two cents: we should prioritize what regional accreditors and state department of educations say. You have some weird cases like King's College in NY, that still says they are open despite not having any students for over a year.
I think that when spring classes end, or when graduation happens is usually too early, but most of these places are ceasing instruction around June 30th of each closure year, just following these sort of closures the last 5 years or so. Just because there are accountants still doing 990s for another year or two doesn't in my book mean the college is still open. For some of the weird cases like King's and ASA, we add a note or two and let time do what it will. Jjazz76 (talk) 08:21, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
A couple of further thoughts: (a) With disestablishments categorized by year, I would think that listing an institution as a "2024 disestablishment" could be done anytime (perhaps even in a prior year) that that disestablishment was formally announced. Why wait? (b) The term, "defunct", I relate to somewhat differently. With respect to educational institutions, for all intents and purposes, I would think of "defunct" as when there no longer were any matriculated students. So, for schools that were in the process of closing, "defunct" only after graduation, the end of all classes, etc. Thanks, DA Sonnenfeld (talk) 15:08, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
I think that's actually a good point and a good idea. The time of the announcement does seem like a fine time to add the disestablishment tag, even if it is somewhat speculative. The reversal of closure announcements is pretty rare (Hampshire College, maybe one or two others.) It also helps remind us of which institutions are closing which is often news when the announcement is made and everyone just forget about it afterwards. Cleaning up the NY State College list a few months ago, there were at least half dozen colleges that had closed years before that were still on the list because everyone just forgot about them.
Using the tag in this way is also a useful way for us to monitor for those that jump the gun and put "this institution is closed" when it still has a semester and summer session left of classes.
I actually used the tag last night to double check the institutions that had already closed in 2024, but these were of the sudden closure variety where a college just closed up shop and shut the doors mid-semester. Jjazz76 (talk) 16:39, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Or where the spring semester ends earlier than other institutions like Oak Point University. wizzito | say hello! 00:46, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
Sorry for late response, have been busy. I generally agree with ElKevbo's position that we don't add the categories until a stated closure date. But I recognize there are some institutions where the exact date is not said. wizzito | say hello! 00:47, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
I think some feel a sense of urgency to report this type of event. But Wikipedia is not a newspaper or a crystal ball. Articles are supposed to reflect actual happenings, not projected outcomes. Same as with announcements of new chancellors--we don't update the Infobox until installation has taken place. It is fine to add text indicating the closure announcement and its source. However, the institution is not defunct until the date has passed and/or there is a source backing its actual closure. Wikipedia's policies are pretty clear on not forecasting outcomes. Rublamb (talk) 16:15, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
We agree on the defunct part. But we're both citing WP:CRYSTALBALL but landing on different sides of the conversation for adding the disestablishment date. The relevant passage to me was the exception when "the event is notable and almost certain to take place".
Is your concern that some of these schools will find last-minute funding/students and not close after all? RevelationDirect (talk) 11:10, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
This ws a real issue at St Benet's Hall, Oxford where I reverted any statement of actual closure before October 2022, although closure was effectively inevitable from May 2022. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 12:59, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Well that actually happend with Sweet Briar College in Virginia, so yes. Rublamb (talk) 13:34, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I recommend recat upon actual closing, and not upon announcement. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 13:22, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree with FieldMarine. Don't change the cat until the establishment is actually closed. Sure, mention the expected closing in the article, but until it closes, it shouldn't be in the disestablished cat (any more than we would add one that was expected to open in, say 2028, to the established in 2028 cat now). Meters (talk) 20:37, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Input requested at Talk:Higher_education_in_India

There is a content dispute discussed at Talk:Higher education in India § Global competency and alignment section that would benefit from wider input. 128.41.35.204 (talk) 11:42, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Third opinion requested

A third opinion is requested in a discussion between two editors at Talk: University of Cambridge#Endowment size. Robminchin (talk) 01:57, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

How to handle tables of Greek Life Organizations (GLOs)

There is a discussion open at U of Pittsburgh article concerning unsourced or badly-sourced tables of GLOs and similar issues. It would be great if some guidelines could be established. So far, @Jax MN, @VQuakr, @ElKevbo, @Rublamb, and I have been involved in the talk. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 06:49, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Culinary Institute of America Criticism request

Hi editors, as part of my work for Beutler Ink, on behalf of The Culinary Institute of America, I've made a request regarding the article's Criticism section. I was hoping that editors here would be interested in joining the conversation. Please let me know if you have any thoughts. Cheers, BINK Robin (talk) 16:13, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Dartmouth College fraternities and sororities

Dartmouth College fraternities and sororities has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 23:00, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

This reassessment seems to have been closed. The article is deficient in many ways:
  • "there is no professional fraternities with active chapters"
  • "gender inclusive GLOs" -- does that mean that the others don't include genders?
  • paragraph beginning with "fraternities of Dartmouth College were directly involved in the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s" is completely unsourced
  • paragraph beginning with "Other national social changes affected Greek societies at Dartmouth in the 1960s" is supported only by a dead link
  • paragraph ending with "new location on West Street (where it is still in operation as of the 2013-14 academic year" is unsourced and the reference to 2013 shows that is is outdated --
Melchior2006 (talk) 06:44, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
@Melchior2006: I agree this article needs updating to regain its GA status. However, I don't see an issue with the term "gender inclusive" as is in the dictionary, meaning for any gender. The oppositve of gender inclusive fraternity would be a group that limits the gender of its members. This terminology has replaced the somewhat dated term "co-educational" for many organizations and campuses because it is considered to be inclusive of trans and nonbinary individuals. Of course, there could also be a link to gender inclusive in Wikipedia. Rublamb (talk) 22:09, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
It looks like the major issue was that it's a list rather than an article, and thus not eligible for GA status under the WP:Good article criteria. I took a quick look when the notice was posted and this seemed irrefutable, even if other deficiencies were addressable. It should probably be looked at in terms of the WP:Featured list criteria rather than trying to regain GA status. Robminchin (talk) 22:18, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
@Robminchin: Just because an article includes a list does not make it a list article. It currently has more text than would be typical for a FL introduction, which probably pushes it to a regular article classification, along with the narrative format of the "list". I will see what my fellow WP:Lists editors think. I feel like the bigger issue was the flag for updates which has been lingering. Rublamb (talk) 22:33, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Merger cleanup project

In passing, I noticed that Connecticut State Community College was created in 2023 by the merger of 12 institutions. According to its article, all twelve of the merged colleges have name changes. However, the 12 related articles were not updated to reflect the merger or name change. In addition, their logos/graphics are all for the old institutional names. If anyone has time to work on this, it would be appreciated. Rublamb (talk) 23:57, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Mary McLeod Bethune

Mary McLeod Bethune has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 04:19, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Feedback on Draft

Hi, can I receive some feedback/advice on this draft: Draft:Pak-Austria Fachhochschule: Institute of Applied Sciences and Technology and can I add "Academic Programs" from the official website? (Primary source)

Thank you. ExoField (talk) 11:08, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:European University of Madrid#Requested move 14 July 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:European University of Madrid#Requested move 14 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. 98𝚃𝙸𝙶𝙴𝚁𝙸𝚄𝚂 • [𝚃𝙰𝙻𝙺] 22:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Disputed edits about Association of Independent Colleges and Universities of Pennsylvania (AICUP)

I disagree with and have reverted many of the edits made by PA4C101 that added a sentence about the Association of Independent Colleges and Universities of Pennsylvania (AICUP) to all articles for members of that organization, a few dozen articles total. I am opening this discussion here as it's a centralized location where we can more efficiently discussed these identical edits spanning many articles.

Simply put, I object to adding even a sentence about this organization to these articles as it's undue weight. Membership in this organization just is not meaningful, interesting, or impactful enough to warrant mentioning among the dozens or more organizations of which these colleges and universities are also members. ElKevbo (talk) 00:04, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Seems like fairly trivial info to me. Semper fi! FieldMarine (talk) 02:34, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
Having had a quick look, I'm not even convinced that the organisation is WP:NOTABLE. Certainly doesn't look to be very meaningful and, on searching a (small) sample of websites of the member institutions, it seems that it is hardly mentioned. Robminchin (talk) 03:08, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
This body is the sole representative for 85 colleges and 280,000 students, so of course it's relevant to include this information.
Please see peer organizations listed on dozens of college pages. Example: Pages that link to "Association of Independent Colleges and Universities in Massachusetts"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Association_of_Independent_Colleges_and_Universities_in_Massachusetts
·        Massachusetts Institute of Technology ‎ (links | edit)
·        Williams College ‎ (links | edit)
·        Amherst College ‎ (links | edit)
·        Boston University ‎ (links | edit)
·        Brandeis University ‎ (links | edit)
·        Tufts University ‎ (links | edit)
·        Mount Holyoke College ‎ (links | edit)
·        Hampshire College ‎ (links | edit)
·        Wellesley College ‎ (links | edit)
·        Babson College ‎ (links | edit)
·        Olin College ‎ (links | edit)
·        Boston College ‎ (links | edit)
·        Clark University ‎ (links | edit)
·        Worcester Polytechnic Institute ‎ (links | edit)
·        Suffolk University ‎ (links | edit)
·        Northeastern University ‎ (links | edit)
·        Emerson College ‎ (links | edit)
·        College of the Holy Cross ‎ (links | edit)
·        New England Conservatory of Music ‎ (links | edit)
·        Merrimack College ‎ (links | edit)
·        Springfield College ‎ (links | edit)
·        Wentworth Institute of Technology ‎ (links | edit)
·        Boston Baptist College ‎ (links | edit)
·        Wheelock College ‎ (links | edit)
·        Western New England University ‎ (links | edit)
·        Ralph Hexter ‎ (links | edit)
·        Nichols College ‎ (links | edit)
·        Massachusetts College of Pharmacy and Health Sciences ‎ (links | edit)
·        Gregory S. Prince Jr. ‎ (links | edit)
·        Gregory H. Adamian ‎ (links | edit)
·        Harvard University ‎ (links | edit)
·        Frederick M. Lawrence ‎ (links | edit)
·        MGH Institute of Health Professions ‎ (links | edit) PA4C101 (talk) 13:36, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
That's it's a representative body is not actually an argument that it's particularly important in terms of the colleges concerned or even that it's notable. As noted above, the colleges themselves don't seem to think it particularly worth mentioning on their own webpages. Robminchin (talk) 13:55, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
But they do mention it on their own pages. That's the Massachusetts example, showing that two dozens colleges like Harvard and MIT mention their representative body on their page (Association of Independent Colleges and Universities in Massachusetts).
The only reason this does not show in Pennsylvania is because the Wikipedia editors continue to delete the page. In doing so, they are silencing 280,000 students, the largest body of college students in the state, larger than the state and state related school system, which are allowed to have Wiki pages. PA4C101 (talk) 14:54, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia editors do not actually have the power to delete things from colleges' own webpages, that's the colleges failing to think AICUP is important enough to mention. The question at hand is simply whether this organisation is important enough, on its own merits, to mention in the articles of the members or whether, given that those same members seemingly don't care enough to make much of it on their own webpages, that would be WP:UNDUE. You need arguments other than WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, particularly where it is unclear that the 'other stuff' is actually equivalent, to justify inclusion. Robminchin (talk) 17:14, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
No one is "silencing 280,000 students." It simply doesn't appear that the organization merits mention in articles because it hasn't played a large enough role to be included in those encyclopedia articles. It's not a slight - there are thousands of organizations and tens or hundreds of thousands of people who have been involved or are currently involved in those institutions but they also don't have enough independent sourcing to merit including in those encyclopedia articles.
Given the information that is currently available, I am skeptical that either of these articles would survive a deletion nomination. If you would like the article(s) to remain, I strongly encourage you to locate and add independent reliable sources that are focused on the organization in question.
(For the sake of transparency, please be aware that I have also removed the similar Massachusetts organization from the infoboxes of all of the articles listed above. The documentation for that template requires that academic affiliations "provide essential definition of the institution" and that organization does not rise to that level.) ElKevbo (talk) 21:44, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
And I've tagged Association of Independent Colleges and Universities in Massachusetts for lack of independent/in-depth sourcing sufficient to emonstrate notability. DMacks (talk) 00:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Daniel Diermeier updates

Hi editors, I made a request on the Daniel Diermeier article Talk page that might be of interest to the folks here to add some content related to his time as chancellor of Vanderbilt University. I would greatly appreciate any feedback or assistance you can offer. I have a COI so I can't make these changes myself. Thank you in advance for any help you can offer. Cheers VandyBE (talk) 15:20, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:RADA#Requested move 20 July 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:RADA#Requested move 20 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 18:29, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Assistance requested for University of New Mexico and New Mexico State University

There have been two related edit wars at University of New Mexico and New Mexico State University for the past few months. Both articles have recently been semi-protected for one month to give us some space to figure out consensus in Talk. Your input is greatly desired to help us do that. Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 03:29, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

List of fictional British and Irish universities

Members of this WikiProject may be interested in the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fictional British and Irish universities. PamD 22:51, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

That list survived AfD though is now renamed as List of fictional universities. Will editors with knowledge of non-UK&Ireland fictional institutions (in literature, film, TV, internet, videogames, examples in teaching materials, etc) please contribute to globalising the list? Thanks.
Members of this project may be interested in three more AfD discussions: List of fictional Cambridge colleges, List of fictional Oxford colleges and List of fictional Oxbridge colleges. PamD 20:44, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Merge of inactive higher education wikiprojects

There are a large number of inactive or semi-active wikiprojects related to higher education, mostly on individual universities:

Added to proposal 19/07/2024:

Removed from proposal 19/07/2024 (already operating under another project):

Removed from proposal 20/07/2024:

I propose merging these projects into WikiProject Higher education in order to redirect interested editors to a more active group, stimulate collaboration on the broader topic, and reduce duplicate work in maintaining talk page banners etc. The process is quite straightforward and is outlined at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Guide/Merging WikiProjects. – Joe (talk) 18:00, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Support Great idea! Go for it. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 19:00, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
  • Support all. Not sure if there was ever sufficient activity to warrant wikiprojects on topics as niche as an individual institution, but in 2024 there certainly is not. Sdkb talk 19:15, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
Support This seems like the best place for them. Robminchin (talk) 19:26, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
  • Support. Seems like the right place to address. Comment that the list above is a bunch of individual US universities, and a broader (though still fairly narrow) project for Bangladeshi universities. The latter is of a slightly different nature. I think it's probably still reasonably well served by merging here. Russ Woodroofe (talk) 19:37, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

TSventon (talk) 12:29, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

  • Thanks Ejgreen77, TSventon. I've removed the sixteen projects that are already operating as task force of another one, and added the sixteen additional inactive ones that aren't. @Melchior2006, Sdkb, Robminchin, and Russ Woodroofe: Could you please check to see if this affects your !vote? – Joe (talk) 12:42, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
    I'm fine with the new list. Sdkb talk 12:53, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
    I'm fine with the new list. There seemed some doubt over whether the Cambridge project was active or not so I checked it out – while there had been recent activity on the talk page, this has all been posting of notices or questions and the last time a post received a reply was 2016, so I'd call this inactive. In contrast, the Oxford project has had replies in 2024. Robminchin (talk) 14:21, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
    The new list looks fine, at least at a glance. I'll expand: For me, I think the essential thing is that we deprecate long-time moribund university-specific Wikiprojects, as possibly misleading without balancing upside. I think that Wikiproject Higher Education is probably a better target than the state/region projects in general, although it is a more complicated project to get buy-in from region projects in cases where the university is already a subproject. I also think that articles on universities should generally list both the higher ed wikiproject and also the state/region wikiproject. Thus, it may be mostly moot what we redirect to, so long as both wikiprojects are listed on such articles (as I think they generally are). Russ Woodroofe (talk) 15:17, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Opinions wanted

Your input is appreciated on the talk page section I just opened, Talk:Bachelor's_degree_or_higher#Merge_into_a_different_page?. Mathwriter2718 (talk) 21:56, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Definition of affluence

Most college pages on Wikipedia that I have seen, at least the ones in the US, define affluence in a note at the bottom of the page as "The percentage of students who are a part of the American middle class or wealthier." Can we get a more detailed definition? Specifically, what income number defines the American middle class? This number is always changing so it may not be viable, so in that case can we can replace Affluence with "Middle class or higher". Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, Alexysun (talk) 22:40, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I believe the numbers are taken from the DoE's College Scorecard entry for Economic Diversity, which is based on the income level for Pell Grant eligibility. Robminchin (talk) 00:41, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
"DOE" is typically used to refer to the Department of Energy. "ED" is the more common abbreviation for the Department of Education. ElKevbo (talk) 00:45, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
Argh. You're right; that one always gets me. Robminchin (talk) 01:31, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
Okay thank you. So anything above that is "Affluent"? Alexysun (talk) 17:24, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
It looks like it, yes. Robminchin (talk) 01:38, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Bachelor of Arts § Infobox image

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Bachelor of Arts § Infobox image. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:26, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Caritas Institute of Higher Education#Requested move 12 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Caritas Institute of Higher Education#Requested move 12 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 05:57, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:St. Aloysius College (Mangalore)#Requested move 19 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:St. Aloysius College (Mangalore)#Requested move 19 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Aprilajune (talk) 02:22, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:De La Salle Green Spikers volleyball#Requested move 25 June 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:De La Salle Green Spikers volleyball#Requested move 25 June 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Reading Beans 12:35, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Economic demographics at U.S. colleges

I'd like to update the data for economic demographics at U.S. colleges. It seems that the only data regularly reported by all schools is the percentage of Pell Grant-eligible students, which is a pretty rudimentary metric, so in the past I've used the 2013 data from Opportunity Insights (as reported by the NYT), which includes estimates of median family income, percentage of students from families in top 10% income, and percentage of students from families in bottom 60% income. It seems that they came out with an updated report in 2023 (NYT report), which breaks it down by income quintile but doesn't report the median and only updates the data to 2015. Is it possible to do any better, or is this information just not accessible? Courtesy pinging ElKevbo as I feel like this is your area of expertise. It'd be nice to provide some more granular data than the charts e.g. here without having to resort to old data. Sdkb talk 19:49, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate the vote of confidence but this isn't my area of expertise. To the best of knowledge, you're correct that much of this work relies on number or percentage of Pell-grant recipients as that is the only relevant data that is consistently collected by the federal government and made accessible to scholars and researchers (and reporters and partisan think tanks and hacks with an axe to grind and...). As far as I know, more detailed work has to pull from other data sources. For example, I think that the Equality of Opportunity project has done their own analysis of tax data and I imagine that many studies have relied on survey information. But I don't know if there is a good national database for every institution that is regularly updated. ElKevbo (talk) 22:36, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, the Equality of Opportunity project is now Opportunity Insights. Thanks for the reply; hopefully some better data comes along at some point. Sdkb talk 06:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Daniel Diermeier

Hi editors, I made some changes to a request on the Daniel Diermeier article Talk page following some feedback, but no one has had any further response since I posted those changes. Would anyone here be interested in taking a look? I'd really appreciate it. Cheers VandyBE (talk) 22:08, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

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