Talk:The Culinary Institute of America

Expansion

This page needs expanding as it is an American educational institution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Destitute (talk • contribs)

Criticism section

Hi editors, as part of my work with The Culinary Institute of America, I am requesting changes to the Criticism section of the article. Per WP:STRUCTURE and WP:NOCRIT, I think the section should be redistributed into the History section at the appropriate places in the timeline to improve article neutrality and balance.

I'd also be curious for editors' thoughts on the content itself. I think the paragraphs on the 2008 complaints are WP:TMI and contain some details related to L. Timothy Ryan that need qualification per WP:BLPSTYLE, in particular I think adding the word "alleged" regarding his leadership style is important, because sourcing does not offer concrete evidence of a rather serious charge. Additionally, I think that it is important to include Ryan's response to the allegations and his analysis of why things escalated the way they did. Student walkouts are also pretty typical on college campuses and I don't believe they warrant separation into a criticism section. Overall, I think these paragraphs could be tightened up a fair bit with these changes in mind.

The paragraph regarding CCA protests is also over-detailed and the way it is written is a bit confusing. I also think that change to the way any institution is staffed is pretty routine and doesn't seem like it would be major or critical history. The protests were limited to those whose positions were eliminated but didn't extend beyond that, and I think that is pretty routine and a case of WP:NOTEVERYTHING.

Finally, I'd argue that the final paragraph of the current Criticism section contains a significant overabundance of information that is not directly relevant to the CIA as well as a phrase that pretty clearly seems to be WP:OR ("soon after the Weinstein effect began and because of it"). I think there is an opportunity to trim it significantly to keep the content focused on the CIA and keep the article WP:ONTOPIC.

I have created a draft in my user space showing all of what I hope to accomplish and a diff that specifically shows the changes in position and the textual changes that I hope we can use as a starting point.

@STEMinfo: would you be interested in reviewing this request? I did not use TextDiff because that wouldn't really work to show the changes in position and text but hope the diff I linked above explains it better. Cheers BINK Robin (talk) 21:18, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

@Sdkb, Melchior2006, and Nikkimaria: thank you for taking a look at this request and making the changes you made. Sdkb, I saw your note about moving the section into "History". With the edits that have been made, would any of you feel comfortable with merging the remaining "Criticism" section into the appropriate places in the "History" section, in line with WP:NOCRIT? BINK Robin (talk) 14:53, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

I think it would be fine to merge the the criticism content into appropriate sections. You can also delete the photo of the demonstration, since the demo was pretty small and the attention it draws is, in my opinion, UNDUE. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 15:03, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Given that our capacity of photos is more constrained than our capacity of sources, DUE doesn't apply in quite the same way. We want the most relevant/due photo for a given section, but if the best-quality photo depicts only a minor event, it can still be a good option/better than nothing. Readers do not expect images to be DUE in the same way as text; they just expect them to be representative.

Therefore, I'd hesitate to remove the photo unless we have a better option available. I'd note for BINK Robin that you have the opportunity to influence our calculus by providing us with high-quality options for the history section uploaded to Commons. The best options are those that depict historical events that happened at the school, not just buildings (which are better for the campus section, although we welcome good images of those too). Sdkb ^talk 16:06, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

@Melchior2006 and Sdkb: thank you both for your thoughts. I talked with my contacts at the Culinary Institute of America and they provided me with the following photos as potential replacements. Confirmation of permissions should be in the VRT inbox. The first is of Frances Roth, co-founder of the CIA, which I think would give a nice visual of the person who started the school and could also be used on the Frances Roth article to give it an infobox image. The second is of some students working in a kitchen classroom in 1974. Please let me know if you think either of those work as replacements for the protest photo. Cheers, BINK Robin (talk) 18:55, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I think the new photo of the students in the kitchen is good. I still doubt the "criticism" section, because it is too much like recent news and based on a lot of allegations. Were the allegations ever proved? The protests in 2017 were about "planned" layoffs. That was seven years ago. Is that really so unusual? Did the layoffs even take place? This seems like an abuse of Wikipedia for anti-CIA publicity purposes. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 17:53, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

@Melchior2006:Thanks for the response! I will try to answer your questions the best I can.

According to WPDH, the workers were told they would be laid off on September 22, which would have been the Friday after this article was published. I haven't located any sourcing confirming the layoffs.

From what I can tell, the only reporting on the allegations to force workers to cut ties with their union comes from this Spectrum News article, which quotes union president Raymond Minew saying as much. The three other sources ([1], 2, 3) on the 2017 protests do not mention any allegations of forcing workers to cut ties with their union and I have not located sourcing showing a third-party check on those allegations.

I haven't seen anything about the protests in sourcing beyond when they occurred, so I think there is an argument that this content has some WP:RECENTISM problems. I'll leave the heart of the discussion on whether to include that content to volunteers, but I would argue that this is pretty routine and ultimately not something critical to understanding the history of the CIA. Staffing changes like these are pretty atypical for articles about colleges and universities in general.

Regardless of what the final decision is on keeping that content, I do think the "Criticism" heading causes some neutrality problems, and I think WP:NOCRIT and WP:STRUCTURE both come into play with the section heading. To me, folding this content into "History" makes the most sense from a general organizational standpoint and from a neutrality standpoint. Since I have a COI, I'll defer to what other editors decide is appropraite, but I hope that provides a little more clarity. Cheers, BINK Robin (talk) 21:15, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, the Edit-COI request template is not to be used when there is a dispute with the article. Secondly, you have not provided your request in an X to Y format (see WP:COIEDIT). Thirdly, a "Criticism" section does not necessarily consitute undue weight, it is merely if and when the information violates WP:NPOV is there a necessity to delete the section. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 23:19, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

"Criticism" might not be the best heading. Two of the criticisms have to do with labor union disputes, and a third has to do with protests about CIA producing "little more than telegenic lightweights" (NY Times' conclusion). What if we split these up according the appropriate sections in the article. The union disputes should be trimmed substantially according to BINK Robin's points. The disputes are not that unusual and don't have much to say about the CIA as a whole. -- Melchior2006 (talk) 07:11, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

@P,TO 19104 and Melchior2006: I think if we wanted to distribute the content and remove the Criticism heading, it could look something like this:

Extended content

− <div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable">Main article: [[:History of the Culinary Institute of America]]</div> [[File:1. John M. Davies House, Exterior, From the Northwest.jpg|thumb|left|alt=An ornate Second Empire-style house|The [[Betts House (Yale University)|Davies Mansion]] in 1964, during its use by the CIA]] The New Haven Restaurant Institute was founded by New Haven attorney [[Frances Roth]] and [[Katharine Cramer Angell|Katharine Angell]] on May 22, 1946 in [[New Haven]], Connecticut as a vocational training school for returning World War II veterans. It was the first [[Cooking school|culinary college]] in the United States. With assistance from [[Yale University]], the school purchased the [[Betts House (Yale University)|Davies mansion]] in New Haven's [[Prospect Hill (New Haven)|Prospect Hill]] neighborhood. The first class consisted of sixteen students and the faculty included a [[dietitian]], a baker, and a chef. In 1947 the school was renamed the Restaurant Institute of Connecticut to reflect its growing repute; the school's name was changed again to the Culinary Institute of America in 1951. [[File:CIA Students 1974.jpg|thumb|CIA students in 1974]] Enrollment grew to approximately 1,000 students by 1969, beyond the capacity of its original campus, so the school purchased the [[St. Andrew-on-Hudson]] [[Jesuit]] [[Catholic novitiate|novitiate]] in Hyde Park, New York in 1970. In 1971, the college began awarding associate degrees, and opened its doors in Hyde Park in the following year. From 1974 to 1979, the school built three residence halls, a culinary library, a career planning center, and a learning resources center. From 1982 to 1984, the American Bounty and [[Caterina de' Medici]] Restaurants and St. Andrew's Café opened. In 1984, the school's continuing education center (later named the [[J. Willard Marriott]] Education Center) opened, and the school improved its teaching kitchens and constructed an experimental kitchen and food laboratory. In 1990, the school opened a baking and pastry facility, named two years later as the [[Takaki Bakery|Shunsuke Takaki]] School of Baking and Pastry. In 1993, the school opened its [[Conrad N. Hilton]] Library and began offering bachelor's degree programs. In 1995, the school's first branch campus opened, [[the Culinary Institute of America at Greystone]] in St. Helena, California. In 1998, the Student Recreation Center was opened.[[File:Culinary Institute of America (276631101).jpg|thumb|upright=1.2|alt=A four-story Neocolonial brick building|Roth Hall, the primary facility at the school's Hyde Park campus]] The Apple Pie Bakery Café opened in 2000, and the [[Colavita]] Center opened the following year. More residence halls were built at the school's Hyde Park campus in 2004. In 2005, Anton Plaza opened in Hyde Park while the Ventura Center for Menu Research and Development opened in St. Helena. The school's third campus opened in 2008 in San Antonio. Two years later, the CIA opened a campus in Singapore consisting of a facility on the campus of [[Temasek Polytechnic]]. In 2012, the CIA began offering a bachelor's degree program in culinary science, and in 2014 introduced a bachelor's degree in applied food studies. In 2015, the college expanded its recreation center and added a new dining facility for students, called The Egg; both are housed in the CIA's Student Commons building. In the same year, the college acquired a portion of [[Copia (museum)|Copia]], a museum in downtown [[Napa, California]] that operated from 2001 to 2008. In 2016, the college opened a campus, [[the Culinary Institute of America at Copia]], which houses the CIA's new Food Business School. The college, which was outgrowing its St. Helena campus, purchased the northern portion of the Copia property for $12.5 million. In 2018, the CIA launched a Bachelor of Science degree program in Hospitality Management and introduced master's-level education with a Master of Professional Studies degree program in Food Business. In 2019, the college began offering a Master of Professional Studies degree program in Wine Management. + <div role="note" class="hatnote navigation-not-searchable">Main article: [[:History of the Culinary Institute of America]]</div> [[File:1. John M. Davies House, Exterior, From the Northwest.jpg|thumb|left|alt=An ornate Second Empire-style house|The [[Betts House (Yale University)|Davies Mansion]] in 1964, during its use by the CIA]] The New Haven Restaurant Institute was founded by New Haven attorney [[Frances Roth]] and [[Katharine Cramer Angell|Katharine Angell]] on May 22, 1946 in [[New Haven]], Connecticut as a vocational training school for returning World War II veterans. It was the first [[Cooking school|culinary college]] in the United States. With assistance from [[Yale University]], the school purchased the [[Betts House (Yale University)|Davies mansion]] in New Haven's [[Prospect Hill (New Haven)|Prospect Hill]] neighborhood. The first class consisted of sixteen students and the faculty included a [[dietitian]], a baker, and a chef. In 1947 the school was renamed the Restaurant Institute of Connecticut to reflect its growing repute; the school's name was changed again to the Culinary Institute of America in 1951. [[File:CIA Students 1974.jpg|thumb|CIA students in 1974]] Enrollment grew to approximately 1,000 students by 1969, beyond the capacity of its original campus, so the school purchased the [[St. Andrew-on-Hudson]] [[Jesuit]] [[Catholic novitiate|novitiate]] in Hyde Park, New York in 1970. In 1971, the college began awarding associate degrees, and opened its doors in Hyde Park in the following year. From 1974 to 1979, the school built three residence halls, a culinary library, a career planning center, and a learning resources center. From 1982 to 1984, the American Bounty and [[Caterina de' Medici]] Restaurants and St. Andrew's Café opened. In 1984, the school's continuing education center (later named the [[J. Willard Marriott]] Education Center) opened, and the school improved its teaching kitchens and constructed an experimental kitchen and food laboratory. In 1990, the school opened a baking and pastry facility, named two years later as the [[Takaki Bakery|Shunsuke Takaki]] School of Baking and Pastry. In 1993, the school opened its [[Conrad N. Hilton]] Library and began offering bachelor's degree programs. In 1995, the school's first branch campus opened, [[the Culinary Institute of America at Greystone]] in St. Helena, California. In 1998, the Student Recreation Center was opened.[[File:Culinary Institute of America (276631101).jpg|thumb|upright=1.2|alt=A four-story Neocolonial brick building|Roth Hall, the primary facility at the school's Hyde Park campus]] The Apple Pie Bakery Café opened in 2000, and the [[Colavita]] Center opened the following year. More residence halls were built at the school's Hyde Park campus in 2004. In 2005, Anton Plaza opened in Hyde Park while the Ventura Center for Menu Research and Development opened in St. Helena. On April 23, 2008, the school's teachers' union approved a vote of no confidence regarding CIA president [[L. Timothy Ryan|Tim Ryan]], the result was 85 to 9 against him. A thirteen-item list of complaints included outdated technology, poor-quality classes, and bad dining hall meals. Ryan later met with union representatives and described coming improvements in scheduling and curriculum. Immediately after the faculty's vote of no confidence, the board of trustees unanimously voted in support of Ryan and extended his contract. In the course of the controversy, the school prevented the campus newspaper, ''La Papillote'', from writing about the issue, which prompted its editor to resign. Administrators later apologized and reportedly allowed a full report in the paper's next issue. The school's third campus opened in 2008 in San Antonio. Two years later, the CIA opened a campus in Singapore consisting of a facility on the campus of [[Temasek Polytechnic]]. In 2012, the CIA began offering a bachelor's degree program in culinary science, and in 2014 introduced a bachelor's degree in applied food studies. On April 23, 2013, about 90 students held a [[walkout]] to protest declining educational standards. In 2015, the college expanded its recreation center and added a new dining facility for students, called The Egg; both are housed in the CIA's Student Commons building. In the same year, the college acquired a portion of [[Copia (museum)|Copia]], a museum in downtown [[Napa, California]] that operated from 2001 to 2008. On September 27, 2015, the Culinary Craft Association (CCA), a union at the school, protested the CIA's outsourcing of jobs. The school had allegedly demanded that union workers cut ties other unions in order to keep their jobs. In 2016, the college opened a campus, [[the Culinary Institute of America at Copia]], which houses the CIA's new Food Business School. The college, which was outgrowing its St. Helena campus, purchased the northern portion of the Copia property for $12.5 million. On September 22, 2017, CCA held another protest about planned layoffs. In 2018, the CIA launched a Bachelor of Science degree program in Hospitality Management and introduced master's-level education with a Master of Professional Studies degree program in Food Business. In 2019, the college began offering a Master of Professional Studies degree program in Wine Management. Main article: History of the Culinary Institute of America The Davies Mansion in 1964, during its use by the CIA The New Haven Restaurant Institute was founded by New Haven attorney Frances Roth and Katharine Angell on May 22, 1946 in New Haven, Connecticut as a vocational training school for returning World War II veterans. It was the first culinary college in the United States. With assistance from Yale University, the school purchased the Davies mansion in New Haven's Prospect Hill neighborhood. The first class consisted of sixteen students and the faculty included a dietitian, a baker, and a chef. In 1947 the school was renamed the Restaurant Institute of Connecticut to reflect its growing repute; the school's name was changed again to the Culinary Institute of America in 1951. File:CIA Students 1974.jpg CIA students in 1974 Enrollment grew to approximately 1,000 students by 1969, beyond the capacity of its original campus, so the school purchased the St. Andrew-on-Hudson Jesuit novitiate in Hyde Park, New York in 1970. In 1971, the college began awarding associate degrees, and opened its doors in Hyde Park in the following year. From 1974 to 1979, the school built three residence halls, a culinary library, a career planning center, and a learning resources center. From 1982 to 1984, the American Bounty and Caterina de' Medici Restaurants and St. Andrew's Café opened. In 1984, the school's continuing education center (later named the J. Willard Marriott Education Center) opened, and the school improved its teaching kitchens and constructed an experimental kitchen and food laboratory. In 1990, the school opened a baking and pastry facility, named two years later as the Shunsuke Takaki School of Baking and Pastry. In 1993, the school opened its Conrad N. Hilton Library and began offering bachelor's degree programs. In 1995, the school's first branch campus opened, the Culinary Institute of America at Greystone in St. Helena, California. In 1998, the Student Recreation Center was opened. Roth Hall, the primary facility at the school's Hyde Park campus The Apple Pie Bakery Café opened in 2000, and the Colavita Center opened the following year. More residence halls were built at the school's Hyde Park campus in 2004. In 2005, Anton Plaza opened in Hyde Park while the Ventura Center for Menu Research and Development opened in St. Helena. On April 23, 2008, the school's teachers' union approved a vote of no confidence regarding CIA president Tim Ryan, the result was 85 to 9 against him. A thirteen-item list of complaints included outdated technology, poor-quality classes, and bad dining hall meals. Ryan later met with union representatives and described coming improvements in scheduling and curriculum. Immediately after the faculty's vote of no confidence, the board of trustees unanimously voted in support of Ryan and extended his contract. In the course of the controversy, the school prevented the campus newspaper, La Papillote, from writing about the issue, which prompted its editor to resign. Administrators later apologized and reportedly allowed a full report in the paper's next issue. The school's third campus opened in 2008 in San Antonio. Two years later, the CIA opened a campus in Singapore consisting of a facility on the campus of Temasek Polytechnic. In 2012, the CIA began offering a bachelor's degree program in culinary science, and in 2014 introduced a bachelor's degree in applied food studies. On April 23, 2013, about 90 students held a walkout to protest declining educational standards. In 2015, the college expanded its recreation center and added a new dining facility for students, called The Egg; both are housed in the CIA's Student Commons building. In the same year, the college acquired a portion of Copia, a museum in downtown Napa, California that operated from 2001 to 2008. On September 27, 2015, the Culinary Craft Association (CCA), a union at the school, protested the CIA's outsourcing of jobs. The school had allegedly demanded that union workers cut ties other unions in order to keep their jobs. In 2016, the college opened a campus, the Culinary Institute of America at Copia, which houses the CIA's new Food Business School. The college, which was outgrowing its St. Helena campus, purchased the northern portion of the Copia property for $12.5 million. On September 22, 2017, CCA held another protest about planned layoffs. In 2018, the CIA launched a Bachelor of Science degree program in Hospitality Management and introduced master's-level education with a Master of Professional Studies degree program in Food Business. In 2019, the college began offering a Master of Professional Studies degree program in Wine Management. References The sources are all named in the live article but I have not included the full citations here due to the mixture of citation formats used.

I think that WP:STRUCTURE supports this, particularly where STRUCTURE says "Segregation of text or other content into different regions or subsections, based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself, may result in an unencyclopedic structure, such as a back-and-forth dialogue between proponents and opponents… Try to achieve a more neutral text by folding debates into the narrative, rather than isolating them into sections that ignore or fight against each other." Labor disputes aren't inherently negative, but I think separating them into a Criticism section makes that content less encyclopedic than if it were included at the appropriate place in the History section.

This is also consistent with the essay WP:NOCRIT, which makes similar arguments, though I recognize that essays are not policy.

I hope that clarifies what I was/am hoping to accomplish and offers an acceptable placement of the text. Cheers, BINK Robin (talk) 16:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Hi everyone, maybe we can resolve the questions that are still open and then remove the tag or even relocate stuff. Do we have consensus about the "Criticism" section being unnecessary (as its own section) and moving the content to other places in the article. That would be the way most higher ed articles are built. Also, I think the CCA protest on September 22, 2017 is not sufficiently significant, particularly because all of the sources are referring to the event (the protest) in the future. We have no reportage about the actual event. Did it even occur? -- Melchior2006 (talk) 12:05, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

That sounds fine to me. I'd go ahead and relocate. Sdkb ^talk 21:14, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you all for your work on this. Cheers, BINK Robin (talk) 22:26, 23 October 2024 (UTC)