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X does not equal CH in English

This has gone on for too long and it would be fantastic if some editors could join me and improve this abandoned and ridiculous problem. There are plenty of obvious examples, but I will start with one:

• In Greek: Ανδρέας Μπουχαλάκης - pronounced in English Boukalakis
• In English: Andreas Bouchalakis - pronounced in English Bouchalakis - (Bousch-a-lakis) notice the 'ch' used in English to say wolds like child or church. The only time the 'ch' takes on the 'k' sound is if the 'ch' is followed by an 'r' - Christ, Chrystal etc...
• I propose we alter all the 'chs to 'x'.

Now who decided that this made sense? Why does it continue? Every single time an English man reads the name of a footballer or person of importance with this nonsense he completely mispronounces the name because of this 'ch' business. Other examples are Angelos Charisteas, Lampros Choutos etc. The Spanish for example leave their spelling intact and this forces the media and public to learn what the 'x' does in their respective language, like with Xavi - whose name is pronounced shabi. Is there anyone out there who agrees so we can mend all these names in respect to the actual people whose names are being badly represented? This nonsense has gone on too long and there needs to be some order. Reaper7 (talk) 16:11, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

It is indeed a huge issue. The problem with footballers, especially those who play internationally, is that the spellings of their names are those used in their passports. Fifa rules. This can be extremely frustrating, especially when the formal versions of first names are used (Dimitrios, Nikolaos, etc), even though no one, not even the players themselves, may use the formal form. The difficulty with imposing a rule, though, is that it may go against the transcription of the subject's themselves. You may disagree with it, but many people, take authors or historians, for example, may use a particular spelling of their name in foreign publications. That version must be respected, even if you disagree with it.

Spanish is a different case as it uses the same alphabet as English in essence.

And if we use an "x" for "ch", what happens with Xanthi? How will the English-language reader know not to pronounce it "Chanti".

Personally, "h" is by far a more appropriate transliteration for the Greek "X", although it took me a long time to warm to it. Haralabos is much easier to pronounce than Charalampos/Charalambos.Damac (talk) 17:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the Spanish 'x' was a poor example. I used it because some Spanish use the 'x' as a heavy 'h' and others as a soft 'sh.' Non-Spanish simply have to learn how the language sounds. Only in the last 10 years it seems the English have finally learnt that J in Spanish has a different pronunciation that the English J.

I dislike the 'h' as you do, but I suppose it is better than nothing. Also that at least is the correct sound in English. Would you be willing to start the process of reversing the 'ch' idea and replacing it with 'h'? I think it is kind of ridiculous it is still being used and believe it is disrespectful to the players and persons of interest and it is disrespectful to the phonetics of modern Greek. Reaper7 (talk) 23:19, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it's possible to represent Greek names in a such a way that everyone will know how to pronounce them. The best we can do there is to add the IPA pronunciation and/or an audio file, see for instance Thessaloniki. About Greek footballers: the current guideline WP:GREEK says "If there is a common anglicization of a Greek proper name, it should be used in an English language context." If there is no commonly used version of a name, it is recommended to use the UN transliteration, since that is also used by the Greek government. It may be contra-intuitive not to pronounce "ch" (for "χ") as the "ch" in "chair", but well, try pronouncing Italian "Chicchi" or Spanish "Jujuy". Markussep ^Talk 08:42, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I will only comment on your opening, you stated: I don't think it's possible to represent Greek names in a such a way that everyone will know how to pronounce them. I don't think this is true. If you take the name Lambros Choutos, 99% of the English speaking world will say lam-bros chew-tos. If we changed it to Lambros Houtos - 99% of the English speaking world would pronounce it not far from the correct Greek pronunciation, many may even get the exact pronunciation. Many Greeks in America and the UK spell their names Haralambos, in fact so do churches. There is definitely a very stupid an obvious flaw to the 'Ch' replacing the 'X.' What is amazing is how it has been allowed to stay like this officially. Many Greeks abroad will use the H simply so people can pronounce their business, name or church.. I really dislike keeping stupidity alive when we have a chance to change it, especially as it seems most Greeks living in the US or UK have made the obvious decision to go against the UN transliteration and make their name pronounceable. Reaper7 (talk) 00:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

It is indeed odd, but it is not our job to set transliteration standards. Wikipedia follows usage, does not create its own, and this goes especially for transliteration, which is largely arbitrary. For instance, most Westerners would have trouble reading Xiao Qian or Foggia correctly, but no-one is suggesting that we change this to Shiao Tsien or Fodja merely for the convenience of English-speakers, or changing our article of Sergei Korolev to Sergei Karaliof. As Markussep says, adding a goof IPA pronunciation is a better way of resolving any uncertainty over pronunciation. Users are of course free to use "H" in place of "Ch", for instance in Christodoulos Hatzipetros, but IMO some care should be shown in regards to historical/traditional usage for names that are familiar to English-speakers, i.e. writing "Hristos" instead of "Christos" or "Mihail" instead of "Michael"/"Michail" would be wrong. Constantine ✍ 05:51, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I think generally using the spelling most common in English, as in any article, is the best approach. The main place with Greek articles that this gets tricky is in placenames that have existed since antiquity. In that case there are often de facto at least two "consensus" spellings in different communities: classicists will use one transliteration, while people referring to the modern location (the Greek government, tourist books, the EU geographical agencies, etc.) will use a different one. These are somewhat difficult to resolve because both uses are often substantial. An example is that Chalcidice is the standard spelling of that peninsula in classical studies, but quite rare when discussing the modern area (the Greek government typically uses Halkidiki, while we currently use a sort of halfway form, Chalkidiki). --Delirium (talk) 08:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Very interesting Delirium. I always used Halkidiki and it seems most people do, including the Greek Government, tourists and Greeks themselves.

• About 1,330,000 results on Google for Halkidiki
• About 1,080,000 results on Google for Chalkdiki

Maybe there is a secret organisation pushing the 'CH' lol. Another great example is the Halki seminary. Reaper7 (talk) 12:55, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I came across this discussion by accident, having recently had a disagreement about whether the 'appropriate' rendition of a name was Spiros or Spyros (I think the former is more helpful and familiar to the reader, I was told the latter was more 'correct' … not by a Greek BTW). The trouble with the 'fixed' system is that it only makes sense if you already understand the Greek alphabet (in which case you hardly need the Latin). Wikipedia certainly isn't consistent, we have Chania, but just down the coast Hersonissos. Any fixed system also leads to monstrosities in latin script, I can't remember the whole name of an ex-student of mine, but it started with an English 'B' sound, so his Cambridge ESOL certificates and all his 'latin' documents ended up rendered (in Latin) as MP.....etc. I endorse a lot of what Constantine says, except perhaps some of his examples 'Christos' would of course be obvious to most non-Greeks, (English or otherwise), Mihail or Michail both seem valid, whereas the most 'English', Michael is OVER-anglicising, (unless the person has already become known by that name outside Greece). Also the original poster - I don't think - expects everything changed 'for the benefit of English speakers', it's more a question of thinking it perverse to adopt a system that informs NO ONE as to how the word should be pronounced, this seems especially true of the 'chi'.

I don't think there is a simple answer to this one but wholly sympathise with those who find the 'fixed' logic inflexible and unhelpful. The real problem is of course that Greek is (relatively) phonetic, whereas English definitely isn't, pronounciation altering according to where the letter combination is and what the root of the word is (and whether there is an 'R' in the month ?)Pincrete (talk) 23:07, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

BTW, I think current policy:-If there is a common anglicization of a Greek proper name, it should be used in an English language context. If there is no commonly used version of a name, it is recommended to use the UN transliteration, since that is also used by the Greek government. … … is probably the worst of all possible worlds. The first part makes total sense and covers most common first names and many place names, but the 'commonly used' have usually adopted a 'phonetic' approach, Haralambos, Hara, Hania, Spiros etc., whereas the second part of the policy leads one into a different territory. At least if I come across 'Jorge' in Spanish I am likely to pronounce it no worse than other English speakers, if I come across a variant of the name or another spelt similarly, I stand a chance of saying the variant sufficiently correctly for someone to know who I am talking about. If rendition varies randomly according to whether someone thinks there is or is not an established form of the name, we end up with 'chi' being rendered as 'h' in the first name and 'ch' in the surname. There are historical reasons why the Gk Govt has adopted their transliteration scheme (though as others have pointed out, in tourist etc. contexts they often adopt a more 'phonetic' approach). I think where no 'standard' form of a name exists, editors should be free to give a rendition in latin script that approximates to English pronounciation, and that (in most cases) would mean 'chi'='h'.Pincrete (talk) 00:53, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Adding information to "Limni, Euboea" article

Hello, I am a native of Limni, Euboea, and would like to see the article expanded. There is a lot more information about the town that can be added, but I do not know how, nor do I have the time to learn. For example, the etymology of the town's name is fascinating; though the female-gendered word "λίμνη" does indeed mean "lake," as mentioned in the article, the name developed from when its inhabitants shortened the older version "Ελύμνιον" to the neutral-gender "το Λύμνι." The 19th-century scribes who put Limni on the newly formed country's maps, thought the natives to have misspelled the word "λίμνη" and permanently changed the spelling of the town, causing confusion to future visitors, who wonder where the lake the town gets its name from is located. There are also several other famous people associated with Limni, such as WWII Greek resistance fighter Lela Karagianni, Greek Independence hero Aggelis Gobios Αγγελής Γοβιός as well as author and Byzantine musician Ioannis Margaziotis. Is it possible for the author(s) to come in contact with me so that this can be further discussed? 70.125.13.192 (talk) 02:23, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

If you've entered this question, you've already mastered half of the technical side of editing, why not try to edit the page yourself? It would be better if you 'registered' (so others can contact you and so we all know who is doing what), but that is a very simple procedure.

You need to understand that everything needs to be 'sourced', (ie not just your opinion, but written somewhere traceable and reliable), but where it is the uncontentious history of a town, other editors are unlikely to challenge very hard. If the famous people you mention have pages on Wikipedia, you should 'link' your mention of them to those pages (fairly easy to do). I'm not responding in any 'official' capacity, just as an ordinary other editor.Pincrete (talk) 14:03, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Help needed on 'Cretan resistance' page

Hello, I'm not sure of proper procedure (and am not even part of the 'Greece' project), however I would appreciate some help on the Cretan resistance page. I first noticed multiple issues over a year ago, but felt I lacked the knowledge of the topic or confidence to edit on my own.

The issues largely relate to use of questionable sources, blatant synth, coatrack-ing and very PoV choice and use of sources. The main editor responsible for this material, is almost wholly relying on 'self-translation' and despite being left messages, doesn't respond to criticism of his material (having done his damage, he has largely disappeared from the page).

As I already said, I feel I lack the expertise (and knowledge of Greek) to sort the 'wheat from the chaff' and am reluctant to mass delete … though that might be the simplest option. I detail many of my specific criticisms on the articles talk page.

Help or a second opinion or telling me where I should go for help (even telling me I'm barking up the wrong tree), would be much appreciated.Pincrete (talk) 17:23, 12 August 2014 (UTC) … … Update, I've actually now pruned the article fairly drastically, so anyone would need to see the history and talk to see the problem.Pincrete (talk) 19:49, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Giannis Poulopoulos

Can anyone help with this article? It is currently being discussed at WP:Articles for deletion/Giannis Poulopoulos. Best wishes, Boleyn (talk) 08:56, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

@Boleyn:  Done. Thank you. Δρ.Κ. ^{λόγοςπράξις} 15:47, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks so much. Boleyn (talk) 15:52, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Historical Revisionism of Macedon

Over the last few years many pages concerning the history of Macedonia have been de-hellenized and grey zones have been created a la Aegean dispute. By de-hellenized, I mean to say, any reference to their Greek nature has been deleted/removed, then reinstated by referenced material and then bizarrely removed again as a neutral outcome/compromise. The pages mostly affected are Macedonia (ancient kingdom) - used to read (Ancient Greek Kingdom), Alexander the Great and Philip II of Macedon. Also the Ancient Macedonian language, Ancient Macedonians has been in the wars over the last few years.

Now this phenomenon of de-hellenization has been spear headed by editors of mostly Australian citizenship carrying ancestry from the Republic of Macedonia, however there are others with more ambiguous or hidden ancestry. They are ambitious and a highly organized campaign has been spearheaded by users such as Taivo, Luxure and Fut perf and a few others. The model is usually the same. A member such as Luxure removes the word 'Greek' and claims for example Ancient Macedon was proto slavic, another member alters his edit and Taivo will come in seeking to remove the word Greek as a neutral compromise. He also states often the word Hellenic does not imply a Greek nature to much outrage from other users. These users are extremely assertive and academic references are often ignored in place of faux neutrality or original research. There can be 40 academic references denoting the Greek nature of Macedon, but yet the word 'Greek' will be removed if they can manage to find one source to the contrary or perhaps even if they can't simply in the model of 'neutrality.'

Over the last few weeks, since the excavations of the Kasta Tomb at Amphipolis there has been increased de-hellenization due to the political capital to be exploited from such a discovery. In the past I have mostly edited pages on footballers and politicians and have not given enough time to this situation. The few existing editors who try and protect the pages are very war weary. If you feel you can contribute to these pages, especially Macedonia (ancient kingdom), please feel free to drop by. Reaper7 (talk) 13:25, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Please be aware of an attempt to ban me before actioning above request

An attempt to ban me from the topic displayed above has been made by Fut.Perf. for asking the WikiProject_Greece to help on the page as detailed above. My trial is here and this goes to highlight the dangers I expressed in my original post on this page. Considering this member's success in the past, please stay strong and do not be disheartened at any negative outcome. the aim to to create fair and neutral pages without sockpuppets and false accusation of insults and bad faith. thanks for your time. Reaper7 (talk) 09:28, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Requesting verification on Battle of Lyncestis

I'm hoping someone at this WIkiProject can take a look at Battle of Lyncestis. I originally tagged it as a suspected hoax, because a google search for the title yielded zero results and the refs are poorly formed. The author has pointed to some references, but none seem to identify the battle by name. Could someone please take a look at this article, make sure the content is valid, and figure out if there's a better title that's backed up by sources? Thanks so much! —Swpb^talk 14:18, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

It appears that something is very suspicious about the main editor of the article. I'll check it the following hours but most probably this is goes to afd, as well as the Battle of Paxos, the other article created by the same newly created (?) account.Alexikoua (talk) 10:53, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Comment on the WikiProject X proposal

Hello there! As you may already know, most WikiProjects here on Wikipedia struggle to stay active after they've been founded. I believe there is a lot of potential for WikiProjects to facilitate collaboration across subject areas, so I have submitted a grant proposal with the Wikimedia Foundation for the "WikiProject X" project. WikiProject X will study what makes WikiProjects succeed in retaining editors and then design a prototype WikiProject system that will recruit contributors to WikiProjects and help them run effectively. Please review the proposal here and leave feedback. If you have any questions, you can ask on the proposal page or leave a message on my talk page. Thank you for your time! (Also, sorry about the posting mistake earlier. If someone already moved my message to the talk page, feel free to remove this posting.) Harej (talk) 22:47, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Greece-related tables

I'm in the middle of sourcing and cleaning up the romanization of Greek article. The current Wikitable defaults are producing a rather drab gray mess and I'm curious if there are accepted sky and pale blue colors to use for Greek-related tables. If not, how about coming up with a standard for us to apply? — LlywelynII 10:20, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Merge proposal on Geographical name changes in Greece

A merge proposal for the articles Geographical name changes in Greece and Former toponyms in Greece is going on. Please vote. Constantine ✍ 14:21, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Inaccurate language map used for wrong purposes

Map 1

Map 2

The map "File:Griechisch Isoglossen 1900.png" (Map 1), showing the Modern Greek dialectual isoglosses, seems completely inaccurate to me concerning the distribution of Arvanitika (white area in the middle). The reasons:

1. Euboea: It's well known that in Euboea the Arvanitic communities are limited in the southern part of the island, in the region of Karystia. Even in this region the largest towns, Karystos and Marmari - and their surrounding areas - are not Arvanitic. But this map not only presents Karystia as purely Arvanitic, but - interestingly - the "white Arvanitic area" is expanded in more than half Euboea. Maybe it's the first map that shows Arvanitika as the prevailing language in central Euboea, including the area from Chalkis to Aliveri(!), since there were never Arvanitic villages to the west of Aliveri (Aliveri wasn't Arvanitic either).
2. Boeotia: Boeotia is the main Arvanitika-speaking region of Greece. Only a small part of western Boeotia around the Mount Parnassus isn't Arvanitic. But - interestingly again - only a small part of eastern Boeotia, in the borders with Attica, is included in this white area.
3. Argolis: Argolis is a region with strong Arvanite presence, but in this map it's also excluded from the white area.
4. This white area, which doesn't correspond to the the actual distribution of Arvanitika, implies that Greek wasn't spoken in these areas, let alone Northern Greece which is totally excluded from the Greek-speaking world, as well as part of Thessaly.

My point: There are some linguistic maps of Greece in Wikimedia Commons here that are more precise regarding the distribution of Arvanitika. This map doesn't correspond to other historical-linguistic maps. Since it shows the isoglosses, it shouldn't be used to show the geographical distribution of Arvanitika. I insist that there are much more accurate maps for this purpose (like Map 2), which could be used in the related articles. Map 2 is used in articles such as Greece, Demographics of Greece, Minorities in Greece, Languages of Greece, Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia, but for a weird reason it isn't used in the article "Arvanitika", where a map of isoglosses (Map 1) was uncannily preferred! In my opinion Map 1 shouldn't be used anymore. Any opinions? --Ymaea (talk) 23:20, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Your are obviously better informed than I on the issue, but anyhow the two maps are not really comparable with each other. It would be wrong to use a map on Greek isoglosses to show minority language areas, because the context is totally different. I'd say always use the dedicated map for the minority languages (which is created by a respected and very knowledgeable editor in the field, Future Perfect at Sunrise), except when the specific context warrants the use of the isogloss map. Ideally, however, you or someone with knowledge in the field should edit the isogloss map and correct its mistakes/omissions.Constantine ✍ 08:22, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Totally agreed. I can not find any reason to use the first map instead of the second one for language distribution in Greece. Ymaea's objections are very reasonable. Map 1 has some issues that are not supported by other maps. Sthenel (talk) 16:31, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Greek and Roman Political Ideas by Melissa Lane

Wikimedia UK is delighted to announce that we have been given some copies of E-books from Pelican Books to give to Wikipedia editors, of which Greek and Roman Political Ideas by Melissa Lane may be of particular interest to people in this WikiProject. More details including application details are at Wikipedia:Pelican Books. Sorry, but for commercial reasons this offer is not available for editors in the USA. Jonathan Cardy (WMUK) (talk) 11:39, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!

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Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Requested Move: Greek Muslims

There is a requested move discussion Talk:Greek Muslims#Requested move 24 February 2015 that needs additional input. The RM has just been relisted to allow for it. --Mike Cline (talk) 14:13, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Socrates

This article is being totally rewritten by one user. It desperately needs wikifying and checking for factual accuracy and needs to brought back to a manageable size. I do not have the expertise to respond to this myself - I was just reading the article today but could not do so as it now has a highly complex structure and layout and is full of unnecessary quotes and content that suggests OR. Can someone familiar with the life and times of Socrates please look at the article? Alternatively, can we go back to the version as at 24 February 2015? Thanks --Chewings72 (talk) 11:11, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Greek museums

There is a long list of articles, mainly of Greek museums, at User:Boleyn/List of museum articles tagged for notability. These have been tagged for notability for 7 years. I'd be grateful if anyone could help look them over. Best wishes, Boleyn (talk) 17:21, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

Ancient Greek Olympiads calendar

To whom it may concern: Recently I have added a calendar to the Wikipedia project that displays the ancient Greek Olympiads, with the number of the Olympiad, the specific year and the name of the winner of the Stadion race. The calendar can be seen on pages such as 776 BC, 696 BC, 652 BC, 636 BC, 556 BC, 480 BC, 448 BC, 280 BC, 264 BC, 164 BC, 4 BC, 1BC, and all the intermediate. Thanks for watching.--Hyphantes (talk) 16:55, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Serious problem with multiple articles in the project?

Hello! I notice that since February, a new editor, User:Whalestate has made numerous very significant deletions and additions to articles in this project. See this. His writing is very poor and reference format is bad. This is way beyond my expertise. Can anyone with expertise here please investigate? Ssilvers (talk) 16:58, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Former Turkish Province Of Yunanistan listed at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion

The redirect Former Turkish Province Of Yunanistan, which currently points to the Greece article, has been nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion. Your comments in the discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 April 26#Former Turkish Province Of Yunanistan would be welcome. Comments left here will almost certainly not be seen by the closing administrator. Thryduulf (talk) 15:49, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Category:Streets in Attica

Category:Streets in Attica, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for upmerging to Category:Roads in Attica. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you.RevelationDirect (talk) 04:23, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Category:Historical people of Thessaloniki

Category:Historical people of Thessaloniki, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for upmerging to Category:People from Thessaloniki.. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. RevelationDirect (talk) 02:06, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Coalition of Left, of Movements and Ecology listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Coalition of Left, of Movements and Ecology to be moved to Synaspismos. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 22:31, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Tsetin Mandatzi listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Tsetin Mandatzi to be moved to Çetin Mandacı. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 23:16, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposal - Rename Greek minority articles to begin with "History of the..."

Wikipedia's articles on the history of the Jewish people tend to be particularly comprehensive. Uniquely, nearly every article on Jewish minorities is titled in a similar format. History of the Jews in Hungary is a good example.

Given the similar circumstances of Greek and Jewish minorities -- both existed for millenia before 20th-century upheavals, and now most of these communities are very small in comparison to their past selves -- should we not rename Greek articles as well? There are two main reasons why I believe we should: technicality and cohesiveness. Re-titling Greeks in Egypt to History of the Greeks in Egypt would be more technically accurate. The vast majority of Egyptian Greek history is not in the modern era, but Greeks in Egypt have had a massive influence on global history, philosophy, and science. Next, it would promote a cohesiveness across Wikipedia's articles. This suggests professionalism, as it ensures that article naming is less arbitrary.

Some other articles, such as that of Germans in Poland reflect this. Ideally, this change could be made to all articles of historic minorities in a similar circumstance. I thought it would make the most sense to begin with the Greek people, because the history of Greek minorities most closely resembles that of Jewish minorities. Other potential diaspora articles to re-title would be Armenians in Turkey or that of the Germans of Romania. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Liam Allen-McGoran (talk • contribs) 00:25, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

It's not a bad idea to create articles focused on the history of the Greek diaspora in various places, like the examples you mentioned: apart from the "German minority in Poland" there is also a (and not renamed to) "History_of_the_Germans_in_Poland", "Armenians in Turkey" have also similar articles. In general I agree with the creation of articles about the community's past, but the current ones can be modified and stay like in the case of German in Poland.Alexikoua (talk) 06:57, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Wouldn't this be a good article to modify, though? The amount of Greeks in Egypt today is honestly trivial. Ethnic cleansing efforts largely ensured that Egyptian Greeks would be a historical minority and little else. I don't know if we need two articles, given the irrelevance of Greeks in Egypt. For a comparison, there is an article on the History of the Jews in Hungary, but no article on Hungarian Jews.--Liam Allen-McGoran (talk) 03:33, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Settlements of Greece

There are almost 10,000 settlements in Greece and only a mere proportion of them has an article on the English wikipedia. I have created several hundreds of them but it's not a task that one can carry out to the end by one editor. The latest article I've created is about Deleria, a village of the Tyrnavos municipality. The article could be used as a template for creating new articles on settlements that aren't present on Wikipedia. It could be copy-pasted and then just a few fields would need to have it's info changed. That would be:

• Within the infobox: Name, name in Greek, Region, Regional unit, population, municipality, municipal unit, population, area, coordinates, postal code, phone code, car plates and elevation. The aforementioned are presented in the infobox. Data on population and area could be obtained by the Statistical Authority of Greece (the links can be obtained from the Deleria article), Coordinates and elevation could be opbtained by Google Earth, postal code and phone/calling code could be easily found on the internet. Car plates can be found in the [Wikipedia article].
• Within the text what needs to be changed is:

a) name, name in Greek, pronounciation, municipality, municipal unit, population and area in the lead section.

b) Population figures in the respective sections. Figures can be obtained from the Statistical Authority of Greece. The respective links that contain that info are already seen on the Deleria article.

It would be great if we reach the point when every Greek settlement has its article on Wikipedia and it would be even greater if that was the result of collaborative work initiated by members of Wikiproject Greece; that's the meaning of Wikipedia and its wikiprojects after all. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) ^{a penny for your thoughts?} 10:17, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Wiki Loves Pride!

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User:Another Believer and User:OR drohowa

Need help emptying Category:BLP articles lacking sources from July 2006

Category:BLP articles lacking sources from July 2006 currently has only one article in it, Andreas Mikroutsikos. Andreas Mikroutsikos is apparently a Greek reality TV personality. I was attempting to source and/or clean up the article, but the problem was I cannot find any sources in English, and Google Translate sucks. Also, the article on him in the Greek Wikipedia is completely unsourced. A Google News search does, however, give a number of results in Greek.

I and everyone else at WikiProject Unreferenced articles would be very appreciative if someone who can read Greek would source that article. I'm especially concerned, since it's a BLP about a statement in the article concerning bestiality, and the sentence referring to him as "merchant of human dignity". ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 20:53, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

@ONUnicorn: I have added references in the article and removed some phrases that could not be suported ("his best album"). I think it's OK now. Have a look and tell me what you think. Hansi667 (Neighbor Of The Beast) ^{a penny for your thoughts?} 16:50, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

@Hansi667: Thank you so much! The article is much better now; things that were confusing are clarified, and pretty much everything is sourced. And now that category of unsourced BLPs is gone. :) ~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 20:45, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

RFC discussions at Talk:Greek government-debt crisis

I started ongoing RFC discussions in subsections of Talk:Greek government-debt crisis#Removal of Content. --George Ho (talk) 16:07, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Help with an article?

I need someone to come in and help with the article Nicholas Alexios Alexis. The article could use some work since it desperately needs RS that directly mentions this person. The article alleges that he's received coverage in encyclopedias, which is why I declined the A7 nomination, but I'd like for someone to go through and verify this. I'm concerned since a lot of the sources in the articles that have links seem to be about his children rather than Alexis himself. I'd also like to have someone check for puffery since the article creators have posted some WP:SOAPBOX type content in the article's talk page. Offhand it looks OK for the most part, but I'm somewhat leery that maybe some of the claims might have been inflated. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 07:30, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Greek language help sought for Underground media in German-occupied Europe

Hi,

I'm trying to get this article up to GA standard and am in the process of writing the Greece section. I'm using a good English language RS, but I'd like to get some proper nouns (mostly newspaper titles) translated into Greek for inclusion. Unfortunately my Greek is pretty basic so I was wondering if someone here could help.

The newspaper titles I'm looking for in Greek are:

• Forward
• Great Greece
• 'Glory
• The Radical
• Fighting Greece

Thanks in advance! —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:00, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

An interesting query! After a little research, the only one I'm unsure about is Forward, which the Wikipedia article you link (and some other English sources) describe as the newspaper of EAM, started in 1942. Forward would probably be a translation of Embros (Greek: Εμπρός), which has been the name of several different Greek newspapers. But the ones I can find information on are liberal and conservative ones, not left-wing ones, and not associated with EAM. The EAM paper published from 1942, according to other sources, was named Eleftheri Ellada (Greek: Ελεύθερη Ελλάδα), aka Free Greece. It's possible they had more than one paper, or that some source has gotten titles mixed up.

The remaining ones look right, and I think I've found the Greek names for all of them, and the publishing organization for all but one. The Radical is the long-running party organ, Rizospastis, of the Communist Party of Greece. I think that's the only one where we have a separate article on the paper (though our article is not very good). Glory is Doxa (Greek: Δόξα), the newspaper of PEAN. Great Greece appears to have been the newspaper, Megali Ellas (Greek: Μεγάλη Ελλάς), of a minor resistance group, the Army of Enslaved Victors (SSN). As for Fighting Greece, Google Books turns up a 1940s British report which gives the transliterated title "Mahomene Ellas", but doesn't attribute it to a particular group. I might transliterate it instead as Mahomeni Ellas (Greek: Μαχόμενη Ελλάς). --Delirium (talk) 07:55, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! —Brigade Piron (talk) 18:26, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Kostas Tsakonas

Some editors are trying to make entries stating that Kostas Tsakonas has died. This article (via Google translate) seems to suggest that he has indeed passed away. As well as his article, someone has added his name to the list of deaths in 2015. I would appreciate it if a Greek-reading person can confirm. Thanks, AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 06:53, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi AtHomeIn神戸. Yes, it is true. Constantine ✍ 13:40, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I see the article has now ben updated. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 01:50, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Category tree for Ethnic Greek people vs. Greek people

Γεια σας,

A user (now blocked) recently created a category tree for Ethnic Greek people. I think it's not very useful, and also quite a bit dangerous, and explained my reasoning in this discussion.

You are invited to give your opinion. Place Clichy (talk) 17:04, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

AfC submission

See Draft:Yannis Tseklenis. Thank you, FoCuS contribs; talk to me! 15:17, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Categories & hatnote

Hello,

I started a discussion here after being reverted several times when trying to restore a see also link in hatnote from Category:Ottoman Greeks to Category:Greeks in Turkey (the reverse link exists and has always had). Your thoughts are welcome there on this issue. Place Clichy (talk) 15:01, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Please provide some input

Please provide some input at Category talk:Ottoman Greeks. Debresser (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Talk:Greco-Italian_War#RfC_v2

G'day all, there is a RfC about the scope of the Greco-Italian War article that you may wish to contribute to. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 22:40, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Battle of Salamis

The reference list at the bottom of the article has cite errors. Can someone either fix them or advise me how to fix them? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:41, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Northern Epirus

THIS ARTICLE IS IN NEED OF ATTENTION. The article Northern Epirus has multiple issues and have been outlined in extensive manner in the talkpage. The article purports to define a region with a geographical spread from Korce to Gjirokaster regions. As such, much of those regions are inhabited by a Muslim/Orthodox Albanian speaking population(i.e: Kallivretakis, Winnifrith etc) and in the article, it does not take into account the complicated issue of identity amongst Muslim and Orthodox Albanian speakers that was intertwined with the larger question of Northern Epirus secession and the issues around retention/or not of Albanian sovereignty. The article also fails to refer to peer review material regarding the decisions of the international community in relation to confirming sovereignty of the area to Albania. The article also for contemporary times does not in any way cite the complicated identity issues involved amongst Orthodox Albanians and Greek identity and migration, post 1992. This part needs to be addressed regarding the matter of how Greeks are counted and their numbers in Albania. There are also uncited and wp:POV claims in the article that refer to the burning of many Greek villages in World War Two without no wp:reliable sources given. wp:secondary are also lacking in certain parts of the article. Any editors interested, message me on my talk or at the talkpage of the article to discuss the matter using peer reviewed material. Best.Resnjari (talk) 23:13, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Good Article Reassessment for First Council of Nicaea

First Council of Nicaea, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Miyagawa (talk) 10:21, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Municipal Art Gallery of Ioannina

This entry has been a sub-stub since 2008 and is now threatened with deletion. Does anyone know (or care...) if it's worth rescuing? And please.... Regards Charles01 (talk) 15:09, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Article title for Drassi/Drasi

Hello, γεια σας,

After several back-and-forth moves, I initiated a discussion to decide if the article for this political party should be called Drassi or Drasi. Comments welcome. Place Clichy (talk) 14:04, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

I would think drasi. Where the double s comes from? See also drastic which derives from δρᾶσις ‎(drâsis). Perhaps the article should be renamed "Drasi". --Odysses (○) 19:28, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

Please help

I'm struggling with Athanasios Koutroumbas Insect Museum. I can't find anything in English on it, notability is not asserted in article and there's no Greek language WP article I can use for help. I'd really appreciate any help that can be offered. There are a few similar ones at User:Boleyn/List of museums tagged for notability. Thanks in advance for any help, Boleyn (talk) 20:43, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

There should be some information in Greek on it, though perhaps only a modest amount. The first thing I can dig up is that the municipality of Volos has a blurb about it on its list of museums page. I'll see if I can find something else to use to expand the article. --Delirium (talk) 08:02, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

A-Class review for Theodore Komnenos Doukas needs attention

A few more editors are needed to complete the A-Class review for Theodore Komnenos Doukas; please stop by and help review the article! Thanks! AustralianRupert (talk) 11:12, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Area of Zeitenlik military cemetery

The article Zeitenlik included the sentence

Greece has donated free land for the construction of the complex of 7 000 km²

That's 2,700 square miles, or over 1,700,000 acres, and cannot possibly be right. See Talk:Zeitenlik#Area. Please {{Ping}} me to discuss.

Cross-posting to WikiProjects Military history and Serbia. --Thnidu (talk) 20:14, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Υστερογράφος

Can someone have a look at Special:Contributions/Υστερογράφος? It was a short burst of multi-kilobyte contributions in 2014 that included an article I just prod'ed because the references appear to be either fake or grossly mistaken. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 14:32, 14 May 2016 (UTC)

Need review of Varvakeio

I've brought material over from the Greek version but this needs help. Mangoe (talk) 03:06, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Missing article: National symbols of Greece

Greece is one of the few big countries missing this overview topic. See the template at National symbols of Japan, for example. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:50, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Greek cinema and box office

Hi everyone! I would be interested to expand the content and the number of articles referring to any films released in Greece, Greek films in particular, and the Greek box office. I would also be happy to help with any other aspect of WikiProject Greece. Just contact me to let me know if you need help with something. I have added a table with the top 15 Greek films in terms of admissions here. Open to comments/suggestions. Spinc5 (talk) 19:59, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Invitation to Women in Food and Drink editathon

November 2016
	An opportunity for you and your country to contribute to the Women in Food and Drink online editathon Faciliated by Women in Red

--Ipigott (talk) 10:04, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

(To subscribe, Women in Red/Invite list. Unsubscribe, Women in Red/Opt-out list)

Notice to participants at this page about adminship

Many participants here create a lot of content, may have to evaluate whether or not a subject is notable, decide if content complies with BLP policy, and much more. Well, these are just some of the skills considered at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship.

So, please consider taking a look at and watchlisting this page:

• Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Optional RfA candidate poll

You could be very helpful in evaluating potential candidates, and even finding out if you would be a suitable RfA candidate.

Many thanks and best wishes,

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 17:46, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Akovos

There is limited information about Akovos, that I've been working on today. So, I thought I'd take a peak at the Greek article. There's some great historical information there - and I used Google translate to start to decode it - and I was hoping someone that spoke Greek / knows the Greek language could take a peak if my assumptions are correct for part of it. And, help with the few parts that I cannot begin to decipher.

The discussion is here and if someone has a bit of time, it would be great to expand the history section. There's some quite interesting information - it seems.--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:54, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Cannabis in Greece needs improvement

We have a new article Cannabis in Greece, but it could really use improvement and expansion, especially from anyone who can read Greek sources. With a little polishing, it'd also be really useful to make a translated version for Greek Wikipedia since it's a topic of increasing interesting these days. Goonsquad LCpl Mulvaney (talk) 03:01, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I could particularly use help refining and citing in what year did Greece first ban hashish and/or cannabis. I'm finding unreliable sources saying around 1920, or the end of WWI, but I'd like to find something from a scholarly source. Any Greek speakers here who can help? Goonsquad LCpl Mulvaney (talk) 07:02, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement!

Hello, Please note that Aeolian Islands, which is within this project's scope, has been selected as one of Today's articles for improvement. The article was scheduled to appear on Wikipedia's Community portal in the "Today's articles for improvement" section for one week, beginning today. Everyone is encouraged to collaborate to improve the article. Thanks, and happy editing! Delivered by — MusikBot talk 00:07, 2 January 2017 (UTC) on behalf of the TAFI team

Citation - WIPO links for the Vergina Sun used in the flag

I have pasted the 3 WIPO (6ter) protected Vergina Sun variants. These are protected national symbols of Greece (as of 1995).

Vergina Sun - Variation GR1

Vergina Sun - Variation GR2

Vergina Sun - Variation GR3

Thanks for your time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HistoryIsMyWingman (talk • contribs) 07:46, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Hellas name

We should use the Hellas name for Wikipedia articles about our beloved country. The name Greece is not acceptable as it was used by conquerors and is not the name we the glorious Hellenes use. Please help to raise awareness about our preference to use the Hellas name internationally for our country and make Wikipedia use it. Sofia Koutsouveli (talk) 21:25, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

@Sofia Koutsouveli: Please stop this campaign. Wikipedia is an encyclopædia, not a place to glorify one's country. Thanks. Dr. K. 21:33, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

@Sofia Koutsouveli: Not to mention that "Greece" is derived from the ancient word "Γραίκος". It is not offensive in any way.

Atana, a.k.a. (Athena) move request

I'm requesting Atana be moved to Atana (raga) because it's currently an article on music of India, when Atana as known in the West is an alternate spelling of Athena, or a ‘proto-Athena,’ and there are also two or more other languages with the word having different meanings. The main page should be a disambiguation. If any page had the main article, I'd have preferred it be Athena. I've opened a move request discussion you can join.--dchmelik (t|c) 05:31, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Upcoming "420 collaboration"

You are invited to participate in the upcoming "420 collaboration", which is being held from Saturday, April 15 to Sunday, April 30, and especially on April 20, 2017! The purpose of the collaboration, which is being organized by WikiProject Cannabis, is to create and improve cannabis-related content at Wikipedia and other Wikimedia projects in a variety of fields, including: culture, health, hemp, history, medicine, politics, and religion. WikiProject Greece participants may be particularly interested in the following: Cannabis in Greece. For more information about this campaign, and to learn how you can help improve Wikipedia, please visit the "420 collaboration" page.

---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:51, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Costamare

The world headquarters of Costamare has recently moved to Monaco. Please change this in the Wikipedia article on Costamare. The majority of stock ownership is still in Greece but not the world headquarters anymore so please change this. Please read their most recent annual report they submitted to the EDGAR website of the Security and Exchange Commission of the United States to verify this assertion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.158.15.238 (talk) 01:23, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement!

Hello, Please note that Chthonic, which is within this project's scope, has been selected as one of Today's articles for improvement. The article was scheduled to appear on Wikipedia's Community portal in the "Today's articles for improvement" section for one week, beginning today. Everyone is encouraged to collaborate to improve the article. Thanks, and happy editing! Delivered by — MusikBot talk 00:05, 1 May 2017 (UTC) on behalf of the TAFI team

AfD

The 2017 Adendro train derailment article has been nominated for deletion. Mjroots (talk) 05:44, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Greek Austerity Packages

Hey! There were 13 different pages for each of the austerity packages, and I merged them all into Austerity Packages of Greece. You guys certainly know more than me about Greek Politics, so if there are any improvements you could make to the article, please do so! I will go through eventually but your help would be appreciated. Thanks again El cid, el campeador (talk) 16:22, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Sarakiniko Beach

The article Sarakiniko Beach has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

no references and lacks notability

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the page to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. BSOleader (talk) 14:43, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

Albanians communities in Greece German article

Hi All,

I was in the German wikipedia and it happend to visit the article Albaner in Griechenland. That article has been locked in an Albanian nationalistic POV claiming that 70% of Greeks originated from Albania. Anyone that can help restructuring it according to the English one? Thanks.Othon I (talk) 12:43, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Nationalistic POV is a regular problem in all language versions of Wikipedia, and attention is needed, but I expected this kind of POV to happen more frequently on the Albanian language version of that article, given the current nationalistic trends in the domestic policies of Albania, not on the German language one. Unfortunately I can't help on this as I do not know to speak or write German. Perhaps someone here or in the article's talk page can? --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 15:53, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I was wondering about it as well but I found out that only Albanians are editing the article. If someone has a good knowledge of German would be great to help. My knowledge of German is limited. Othon I (talk) 08:27, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

I have the same concerns about Greek Wikipedia after coming across some articles in relation to Albania, "Northern Epirus" and Arvanites. It is very important to remove all nationalistic content from the Wikipedia project.Resnjari (talk) 12:05, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Exactly Resnjari, I couldn't agree more. Same goes to the Albanian Wikipedia were they present Archbishop Hierronymus and others of Arvanite origin as Albanians in Greece. Othon I (talk) 20:39, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

If you feel so very strongly about this, you can lead by example on English Wikipedia. There is the article Greek Muslims on English Wikipedia. Start a move page thing on the talkpage so the article name is changed to the non POV Greek speaking Muslims as it was many years before. Those people do not identify as Greeks after their anceswhotors converted long ago and nor do modern Greeks consider them Greeks, as per the scholarship (even the Greek wiki article has the page name as Ελληνόφωνοι μουσουλμάνοι = Greek speaking Muslims). On archbishop Ieronymos II there is no article on him in Albanian Wikipedia. Where did you get that idea from about him being listed as Albanian? Also on other Arvanite figures which have Albanian wiki articles (https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategoria:Arvanitas), the articles usually state they are Arvanite (or rarely Arberesh - the name they use for themselves in their former mother tongue), not shqiptar (unless in relation to Suliot figures - even english wiki cites their Albanian origin in the Suliotes page, as per scholarship) and the categories even have greke (greek) down below. Just curious, can you read Albanian or is this conjecture?Resnjari (talk) 21:17, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Pardon me, Hierronymus is presented in the German WP as Albanian in Greece, in the Albanian Wikipedia see below https://sq.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shqiptarët_në_Greqi you can see the images about presenting Nikos Engonopoulos and others as Albanians in Greece. I so not have a clue of what it says since I do not speak or understand Albanian. Regarding the Greek Muslims, I would give it thought a bit more because we are discussing a religion here and not an ethnicity/nationality however, it could possibly change by achieving a consensus to you suggestion. Anyway, on our topic, claiming that 70% of Greeks are of Albanian origin as it is stated in the German WP is an endorsement of extreme nationalistic propaganda that must be avoided at any cost. Othon I (talk) 09:01, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

Othon I I have reverted to Khirurg's version, thus removing the 70% figure [[1]]. Nationalists on all sides should desist from these sorts of wild claims.--Yalens (talk) 00:47, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Yalens Thank you very much. It looks like that hey have reverted it and they have change the status as non-editable. I think we must report the situation. Othon I (talk) 17:16, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Just for everyone's info, I have started a discussion for consensus in the articles talk page. Othon I (talk) 17:36, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

The users who locked the page rightly noted that we speak German poorly at best, plus from their point of view this could smell bad (canvassing on the WikiProject Greece page, easy to see how this could be misinterpreted...). I'd recommend asking for help from a user with a strong reputation who edits Albanian stuff and speaks German well-- Future Perfect is a native speaker if I remember properly, and I've seen him edit Balkan topics to remove nationalist POV from time to time-- perhaps you should ask him? You could also try Vargmali, he also speaks German, but he's often busy and a lot less active.--Yalens (talk) 23:57, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

If Future Perfect or anyone else with a good knowledge of German and a proven interest in Greek articles is willing to help, that could be great. --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 05:53, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Tagging Vargmali too. --Yalens (talk) 20:53, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Just a comment on the progress so far. So according to Future Perfect As I see has explained in the talk page of the article that its is somehow nationalistic agenda if we do not present Arvanites as Modern Albanians. Pretty neutral I must say. But anyway, I won't stay on that because I am actually neutral and I will say that of course they must be mentioned in the article as linguistic and cultural communities because the geographical region of Albania is were they came from and they spoke sand still some speak and Albanian dialect. However, I agree with Future Perfect on the fact that the living personalities such as Hieronymus and Pangalos and even an athlete who is from Ikaria and is not of Arvanite origin is absurd to call them ethnic Albanians. My comment proposition here https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskussion:Albaner_in_Griechenland Othon I (talk) 21:17, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Just a note for everybody who might follow this discussion. The German article does not say that "70% of Greeks originated from Albania". Whoever tried to translate this did a very poor job (electronic translators are usually rather unreliable). The article says that doubtful Albanian sources claim that there are four to seven millions of Albanians living in Greece (this would equal to 70% of the Greek population). --Albinfo (talk) 21:03, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

The point here is that we have a certain pov: the article mentions only the Albanian pov. On the other hand it questions the Greek census (I guess this is also according to Albanian sources).Alexikoua (talk) 21:41, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't make much sense to discuss an article of German WP here in English WP - but again:

Wrong. The Greek census is not questioned. But as Greek sources don't tell us, how many Arvanties, Çams or other Greek citizens with Albanian origin live within the country, the article tries to fill this gap by the use of other sources. And – what a surprise – these sources are Albanian and not Polynesian or Norwegian. If you have any Greek sources (the Greek POV), feel free to mention it on the discussion page of the article. I'm sure this would be very welcome and added to the article. --Albinfo (talk) 23:06, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Albinfo While I recognize the problem of Greek historic official refusal to acknowledge (officially) the existence of minorities, I don't think using a source that effectively claims 70% of Greeks are Albanian by descent (I appreciate that the page wasn't saying this) is optimal. Including nationalist claims by both sides (Albanian, Greek) as if they neutralize each other is not a method I support in this case-- I think it useful for pages about controversies, and in some sense, about history, which naturally must discuss different view, but not pages about people. It would be the same deal if we were dealing with one of those Greek sources that try to claim that like 20% of Albanians are "Greek"-- these sorts of things aren't worth including, and if they must be in there, it's because it simply isn't possible to remove them. Most readers of your article won't be interested in the controversy. --Yalens (talk) 04:57, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

It looks like that in German Wikipedia we have a lot of Albanian POV. I have just found out that in here https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albaner the Arvanites are presented as Albanian diaspora in Greece. Probably we need to have a look at that article as well. Thank you very much all for your help. Building neutral articles and presenting both sides enable us to avoid misconceptions and misunderstandings. Othon I (talk) 22:06, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

For the sake of fairness, one might note on English Wikipedia that the Griko people are more or less portrayed as a Greek diaspora community, but like Arvanites, despite acknowledging their ethnic ties to Greeks, Grikos almost always identify as being of Italian nationality. It might mean, similarly, in the ethnic, linguistic and historical sense-- not in the national sense. Perhaps Albinfo would comment on this -- I understand that talking about German Wikipedia on English Wikipedia is weird, but I suspect many people are following this discussion only on en-wiki. --Yalens (talk) 00:37, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Yalens I understand your thought and you are partially right however, your example is a slightly wrong. Griko people are embracing the Greek culture and they are a recognised minority but of course they are Italians. Same like the Arbereshe who are a recognised minority embracing the Albanian culture but of course they are Italians. On the other hand, Arvanites are refusing any connection to Albanian nation and culture although they speaking/spoke an Albanian dialect and also, it is very important they are not an ethnic minority hence presenting them as Albanian diaspora is an endorsement of Albanian nationalistic POV and must be avoided. Othon I (talk) 09:23, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Personal family matters kept me away from wiki. Anyway Othon I in reply to your post from around a week ago, i did the changes you recommended to the page (bringing it in line with the English wikipedia page) and removed the problematic infobox gallery too [2]. As that was the only page (?), other pages on Albanian Wikipedia such as that on Arvanites [3] do not refer to these populations as Albanians (but Arberesh -their name by the way), even those that have content on Orthodox Albanian speakers in Greek Epirus (the ones who call the language Shqip like Albanians do) are refered to as shqipfoles ortodokse (Orthodox Albanian speakers) [4], [5], not shqiptarë (Albanians). Also note the Alb Wiki page on Arvanites clearly states using non-Albanian academic content that these people do not view themselves as Albanians and cited are also their (negative) views of Albanians and the Albanian dialect they speak/spoke. In relation to the issue of Greek Muslims, Othon, i disagree that the matter has only to do with religion. The same points apply. If designating the Arvanites and other (former) Orthodox Albanian speakers or their communities as Albanians is offensive, it is also offensive to have a page called Greek Muslims as Grecophone Muslims do not identify as Greeks (they think of themselves as Turks and it is cited for each Grecopohone community ranging from the Cretan all the way to the Pontian) and find it offensive to be called as such. Within that article it is also clearly cited that in Greece itself these people are not considered Greeks too. So for the sake of consistency and since we are all about removing nationalistic content and POV, the point made rightly about Arvanites by you and others the same should be applied regarding the page Greek Muslims with a change to the non-offensive and neutral Greek speaking Muslims.Resnjari (talk) 12:15, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

The national POV in Albanian wiki is dominant as the Northern Epirus article was all of the sudden speedy deleted [[6]]. In similar fashion according to sq:wiki Thessaloniki has a 100,000 strong Albanian community. It's also worth noting that sq:wiki admins act like defenders of national honor: as soon as I dared to add an ethnic Greek in Himara [[7]] I was instantly blocked by Tëfcí Alexikoua (talk) 13:04, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Dominant? You seem to have ignored the reason for deletion given by the administrator. Eagleal stated the following "ekziston epiri, ky ishte vetem 2 linje" translated is said "exists Epirus, this was only 2 lines" [8]. In other words, the article Epirus exists on Albanian Wikipedia (cattering for the whole region) and the Northern Epirus article in question was two lines and not sufficient for it remaining. English Wikipedia itself has guidelines on such short articles WP:STUB, WP:CONTENTFORKING. Before accusing administrators on other Wikipedia projects of POV make sure first, maybe learn some Albanian on the way to assist. As for Himara, looking at your edit you placed about Spiros Spiromilos in the article, no article about him exists in Albanian Wikipedia so don't be surprised it was deleted, as even English wiki has guidlelines on this (WP:REDLINKS). On your ban take it up with Albanian administrators and make your case as there might have been other issues with your editing that resulted in your being blocked.Resnjari (talk) 14:06, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Actually arguments of that type can be considered as the most childish excuses for deletion. No wonder a similar attempt to remove the same article from en:wiki was fruitless (the -now blocked- nominator pretended that it's CONTENTFORK too). As far as remember the sq:wiki article of Northern Epirus was more than 20 lines. Even though per wp:STUB that's not an excuse for deletion.Alexikoua (talk) 16:40, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Well using words like "childish" in your comments kind of answer why you might have got blocked on Albanian Wikipedia. Anyway that's your issue with the admins on Alb wiki (many of them know English so it would not be hard to present your case). On the deletion of the Northern Epirus article, the admin made that determination based on the article being only 2 lines. There is nothing conspiratorial about it. As far as i see it its your word of a editor (which as you noted your going by memory regarding events more than half a decade ago) against an administrator (a editor who had been elevated to a position of trust and administrative management by by other Wikipedia editors). Even me who has done so many edits on Alb wiki cannot get that role. An admin's word comes first over yours. That is how it is and wiki has the article guidelines.Resnjari (talk) 16:56, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Can you offer me a link on sq:wiki where I used words like that? (I guess not) It's far too obvious that such kind of POVish style national activity is evident in sq:wiki. Thus, "childish" is a reasonable epithet to use for some the behavior of sq:admins like Tefci or the one that speeded "Epiri i Veriut". No wonder similar attempts in en:wiki by editors that shared the same national obsession led them permanently blocked.Alexikoua (talk) 17:14, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

You used it here in relation to my comments. I don't know what kind of editing you did on Alb wiki or how you engaged the admins and frankly i don't care. The admins made whatever determination based on the issue of the day and if you have an issue with that, most of them speak English which means you and them can discuss on their talkpages. You keep refering to "national obsession" yet your evidence is nowhere. I pointed out (via the link) the reason for deletion as given by the admin. 2 lines don't make an article.Resnjari (talk) 17:23, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

As a result of such a stubborn obsession to defend their "national lines", projects such as sq:wiki display poor quality articles. No wonder when sq:wiki admins and "experienced" editors there attempt to expand their contribution in en:wiki have to deal with their POV obsession and get blocked for edit-warring.Alexikoua (talk) 14:08, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Another gem "stubborn" alongside "national lines". Now if i was to go into the same polemics, and i can about Greek Wikipedia i would be here for hours, and the nationalism and irredentism it promotes on certain articles. No one has ever said that Albanian Wikipedia is perfect, just like the rest of the Wikipedia projects, however certain articles like those on Chameria, Arvanites, Suliotes, the Expulsion of the Albanians 1878, Upper Reka etc (which are substantial in number, written by yours truly) are in good stead as i want Albanians to be informed about those things then the usual crap out there on the internet devoid of scholarship. You seem to have issues with admins on Alb wiki as your comments keep bringing up and the only suggestion is to go and discuss with them your issues instead of listing what might be this, that or the other. Anyway the more you comment here, i am not surprised by your block.Resnjari (talk) 14:26, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Alexikoua's mention of a block, in his previous posting, was about users from the Albanian wiki getting blocked on en.wiki due to their POV, not about himself getting blocked on the Albanian wiki. Dr. K. 15:02, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

To quote Alexikoua "I was instantly blocked by Tëfcí" [9], is very clear that he was refering to himself and not other users on Albanian Wikipedia.Resnjari (talk) 15:23, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Resnjari Could you please let me know hich part of the Arvanites article in the Greek WP is problematic? Thanks for your edits and your previous comment. Best Othon I (talk) 16:40, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Othon I, the Arvanites page is ok, its Greek wiki pages relating to Northern Epirus [10]. As with its English counterpart, the article in scope claims to give information and history regarding around a quarter to half of land in what is modern Albania. Ok, however neglected from that article is information about the Albanian speaking population (Orthodox Albanians) who make up a large part of the population and Muslim Albanians who exist in large numbers as well. The article does not give info about support Orthodox Albanians mainly had historically for Hellenism and support for the Northern Epirus movement in the past and the issues that community had being between Hellenism and Albanianism. It also ignores having some mention about the conversion to Islam of Orthodox Albanians giving rise to Muslim Albanians (a group that was heavily opposed to Greek unification of the area) etc. Instead all one gets is that Northern Epirus is a land of Hellenism from antiquity unbroken in continuity. What about the Albanian speaking element who is the majority, then and now ? Vlachs seem to get a mention (well in the Greek wiki version of the article). As i said addressing Greek wiki articles would take a long time. For now lets deal with the Albanian wikipedia articles as you brought them up and i am familiar with many, what's left? Or for that matter English wiki articles like Northern Epirus. I also mentioned earlier, the Greek Muslims article on English wiki is in need of a name change, for the sake of consistency (as you pointed out issues about Arvanites being called Albanians) and the same respect afforded about not causing offence, as Grecophone Muslims do not identify as Greeks. Best.Resnjari (talk) 17:14, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

@Resnjari: i was to go into the same polemics, and i can about Greek Wikipedia i would be here for hours. Yet again not the slightest arguments presented. To sup up only an extreme nationalist would agree that "Northern Epirus" as an article should be deleted (being only 20 lines of text isn't an excuse for removal). It's like a non-Albanian pretending that Chameria article should have no place in wikipedia. By the way the N.E. article here is in much better shape than the articles you mentioned: carefully written and avoids the usual recycling of the similar info.Alexikoua (talk) 19:50, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

@Alexikoua, I am not an administrator on Albanian Wikipedia, even though i am one of its biggest contributors by edits. The administrator who made that determination about deletion gave their reason. The Chameria article is more than two lines and has a far amount of scholarship citation on English Wikipedia. I fail to see how that compares with 2 lines of a Northern Epirus article on Albanian Wikipedia. You keep claiming "20 lines", i fail to see your evidence for this and claiming that the deletion was done due to the actions of a "extreme nationalist" is showing your POV out in the open. Somehow we are to take your word, a editor over a administrator's. Regarding Greek Wikipedia i just did present my points in the previous post on Northern Epirus articles and the deficiencies it has just like its English counterpart. I never said anything about recycling information as you know very well from past interactions on the talkpage of that page. It was about owhomissions, and plenty of them. And lets no forget the POVish map about "traditional communities" in Albania you have made based on 6 very selective sources, of which one can sought of be counted as scholarly -while ignoring a vast array of actual scholarship, Greek in particular. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a propaganda outlet. Probably no shock as to why you got blocked on Albanian Wikipedia by administrators.Resnjari (talk) 20:24, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

(ignore persistent NPA violations) Defending a certain extreme POV and claiming that an article was 2 lines long (though it was c. 20 since I personally edited) is still a paradox. As I see both N.E. el and en wiki articles are in much better shape and quality compared to poor-level recycling in U.Rekka etc with endless and boring 115k of text (endless quotefarming etc). In general wikipedians should avoid so bad examples. Alexikoua (talk) 20:44, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

"Defending a certain extreme POV", where is your evidence for this "20 lines"? As clearly noted with evidence [11] an administrator made that determination for deletion. And as is done in English wikipedia I will take a administrator's word over someone who is just a editor. Its why they are administrators and your not. Also you personally edited a article on Albanian Wikipedia, so you speak Albanian i take it ? Because if was it one of those flawed google translate entries that many IP and other Albanian diaspora type editors that keep littering Albanian Wikipedia with articles that have to be constantly deleted for poor quality and grammar (which takes time from admins to devote toward improving existing entries), then don't be surprised about blocks. I placed those quotes in the Upper Reka article to prevent endless crap about you know, "source falsification", a common accusation made against mainly Albanian editors and to be precise. By the way that article the way i wrote it was translated into Serbian Wikipedia in whole and was given a good article rating [12]. Hmm must be because of what you claim regarding my editing. Funny also how that article has not been a source of disruptive editing and vandalism by IPs and other types of the sort [13]. Same like the Souliotes page after of course my intervention a few years ago, barely any vandalism thereafter and it has remained stable. Huff and puff wont get one anywhere, only facts.Resnjari (talk) 21:15, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

The so-called evidence was simply admin's personal excuse to speedy delete N.E. article. Needless to say that STUBS are not speeded especially if they are core articles such as this one (no wonder the same admin vanished the evidence in the article's history log since the article was much more than what he pretended). The fact that Upper Reka article isn't of decent quality has nothing to do with your personal editing (I avoid to comment on users). A general rule about vandalism is that it hits articles that are not in agreement with the "vandals'" view: that's certainly not an argument for a good quality article.Alexikoua (talk) 21:47, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

A admin is higher than you, a editor in the Wikipedia hierarchy. You still have not provided evidence (a link, heck even a screen shot and something of that image on a link on some image hosting site on the net so one can corroborate your claim) that the article was 20 lines as you assert. As far as i see it, the issue is dead in the water. On Upper Reka, other editors have said to me to take it to a good article nomination. Serbian Wikipedia translated the article i wrote in whole gwhoiving it a good article nomination - they wouldn't do that if the article did pass the test of quaitiy -especially one written by a Albanian editor of all people. I mean facts speak for themselves. I know how vandals work, been watching that shit on Albanian wikipedia and now English wikipedia for years now.Resnjari (talk) 09:27, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

@Resnjari: stop taunting other users about getting blocked on sq.wiki. You yourself were blocked not too long ago right here on en.wiki. Any further taunts will be redacted, and you had better not edit-war to re-instate them. I won't warn you again. Btw, if an article is a stub, the thing to do is expand it, not delete it on such a ridiculous excuse, and the block anyone for protesting. This is the worst thing an admin could do, and its exactly some other language wikis are a total joke and will continue to remain so while such practices take place.

Khirurg (talk) 21:55, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Khirurg, an admin made a decision. If other editors are attributing unfounded allegations (and colourful language) against administrators on other Wikipedia projects who have not been alerted to such comments and have not given a reply here, i will reply instead. I am familiar with issues on the Alb Wikipedia project due to my involvement. You and Alexikoua are not administrators on any Wikipedia project to carry weight and override a administrator. On blocks you have fine form over time and many if one recalls under the username Athenean. Admins make determinations on Wikipedia projects as they see fit within the guidelines -that is why they are admins a position of trust which the Wikipedia project deemed them worthy of having. If a editor disputes a decision they should discuss it with the appropriate administrator. On Alb wiki most speak English as outlined on their user pages.Resnjari (talk) 09:27, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Considering Resjnari's example above, I remember that the en:wiki N.E. article was carefully translated into French (I've extensively co-operated with the French editor for this project) and became -and still is- FA status [[14]]. As I've said N.E. article is a fine example of editing in wikipedia. Let's hope that U.Rekka can reach a similar level of quality (removing the enldess quotes would be a nice start I believe).Alexikoua (talk) 22:05, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

On Albanian Wikipedia, the only editor who has done translations (in depth ones) is me. Others barely do such requests. If you want a translation of the Northern Epirus article, you need to resolve some outstanding issues it has on its English Wikipedia version. Otherwise i am not wasting my time. The French version looks very different from the English one and actually contains things that i was pushing for (opposed by you and one other editor) on the English wiki version. If you want to make the English Wikipedia version resemble the French one, i am fine with that, then i would do a translation of it in Albanian. On Upper Reka, the quotes are there to prevent IPs and editors from vandalising the article -and to date it has worked very fine being a stable version (apart from my article splits of the culture and dialect sections). I also provided translations from Macedonian and Albanian scholarship for editors who may not have knowledge of a particular language, and hence they appear long (my personal courtesy so as to remove any bullshit discussions about POV or "source falsification"). Removal of translations would shrink them to original language quotes. That is to be done at a future date when it goes to a good article nomination. Its not hard to press delete on a keyboard, what is hard is bringing a article to quality standard using good scholarship. Serbian wikipedia passed my version in whole as a good article. Resnjari (talk) 09:27, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

The French version is a translation of the en:wiki version and I had extensive discussions with the main contributor of the French article for this project (with some historical facts added about the Northern Epirote declaration of Independence, which I've also provided). As for your initial proposals in N.E. article you agreed that they should be trimmed by 70% since even you admitted that the same arguments are recycled again and again (Needless to say that most of the rest is also virtually useless for the reader due to UNDUE). By second though the article will be in much better shape if we remove some endless quotefamingthat equals copyright violation. I believe you remember this piece of advice [[15]].Alexikoua (talk) 15:51, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

I can read French and no its not the same as the English version of the Northern Epirus page. For starters it has a section called "Population de la région" that discusses the Orthodox Albanians or "orthodoxes albanophones" and their context regarding being between Hellenism and Albanianism (language, religion, identity etc). It also mentions the Muslim population and numbers about them (could use a few additional Greek academic sources, but what counts for now is that they are mentioned). As i recall in the Northern Epirus discussion, some while back you and one other editor were vehemently against any mention about this. That is the first very big difference. What i agreed to be trimmed was the ancient era section, which you agreed to as well, but put nothing forward in proposals. How am i supposed to work with that? The French article by the way has nothing about an ancient era section. Neither does the German version of the article (it also has content on population demographics, i.e Christians, Muslims etc). The French version also mainly focuses on the era of 1913 to 1921, while the English version only has 3 small sections that takes in those years, two in particular. Claiming its the same is problematic to say the least. What you regarded as "undue" on my part some time back on the Northern Epirus discussion talkpage, the French article has in its page as content. On quotations, i remember, and that was not directed just toward me because if we go through the history of that page, as ones recalls you added a great deal of quotes yourself. Quotes are in the Upper Reka page until it goes to a good article nomination process and i outlined that to that particular editor regarding another article without additional dispute [16][17]. Otherwise the whole "source falsification" gibberish starts by certain editors who dabble in that kind of mischief.Resnjari (talk) 16:26, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Since you are able to read French you can realize that the fr. article is focused on the history of Northern Epirus from 1913 to -21. The French article is of FA quality because it also avoids recycling and UNDUE. Similarly the en. N.E. article offers enough information about the demographic-historical condition of the region. In fact the english article offers more detail on that, some parts from the current version (which you mistakenly claim that are missing): According to the Ottoman "Millet" system, religion was a major marker of ethnicity, and thus all Orthodox Christians (Greeks, Aromanians, Orthodox Albanians, Slavs etc.) were classified as "Greeks", while all Muslims (including Muslim Albanians, Greeks, Slavs etc.) were considered "Turks".[30] The dominant view in Greece considers Orthodox Christianity an integral element of the Hellenic heritage, as part of its Byzantine past.[31] Thus, official Greek government policy from c. 1850 to c. 1950, adopted the view that speech was not a decisive factor for the establishment of a Greek national identity., due to the late emergence and fluidity of Albanian national identity and an absence of religious Albanian institutions, loyalty in Northern Epirus especially amongst the Orthodox to potential Albanian rule headed by (Albanian) Muslim leaders was not guaranteed Albanian resettlement policy included Muslim Albanian villagers who as state employees were resettled in newly created villages that served as a buffer zone between the recognized Greek 'minority zone' and traditionally Orthodox Albanian speaking regions of internally polarized national identity The total population of Northern Epirus is estimated to be around 577,000 (2002), with main ethnic groups being Albanians, Greeks and Vlachs.. Nevertheless you still insist to repeat the same piece of info about Orthodox Albanians adding even research that doesn't even mention the term N.E. once (about Albanian immigrants in general etc.).Alexikoua (talk) 22:46, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

I realize it 100%. In your previous posts here your the one you cited the French article as the epitome of quality and standard (of which you said you partook in content addition). I agreed (its on the record -now a second time). Hence its why i said if that content goes into the English Wikipedia version, i am all for creating a Northern Epirus article on Albanian Wikipedia and doing a translation. I give my word on this, as i have done in the past when i have done translations for other requests of editors from other Wikipedia projects. Its the best offer you will ever get from a Albanian Wikipedia editor. The current Wikipedia English article does not offer similar information, a few sentences subsuming or burying the Albanian element (both Orthodox and Muslim -which is the majority for starters Psomas outlines this and states that was the determining factor that made the region remain in Albania in the end) within the wider article is very different from the French article which has a whole separate section on Orthodox and Muslim Albanians. Unless such information is included in the English version for starters, you can forget about any Northern Epirus article existing on Albanian Wikipedia. What you have cited is undue, there were population movements under the communists within the Albanian speaking zone that included both Muslim and Orthodox Albanians, but Muslim Albanians were in sizable numbers in cities, towns and villages on the eve of Ottoman rule (scholars like Psomas -his whole work is titled Northern Epirus [18], Kallivretakis, Kokolakis etc). Orthodox Albanians also existed and were between identities (scholars like Psomas, Kallivretakis, Kokolakis, Nitsiakos etc). You may find such content as being "undue", but the difference between the French version having good article status is that it covers such things while the English version omits it. Your choice in the end, incorporate such content from the French article or end of discussion about a Albanian version of the article.Resnjari (talk) 09:16, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

The fr. article offers limited information about Albanian speakers compared to the english article. I fail to see the "Orthodox and Muslim Albanian section" and the only part that's dedicated to the various groups is less than one paragraph: (Le reste de la communauté est bilingue. Sa langue vernaculaire est un dialecte albanais mais son alphabétisation s'est faite en grec, langue aussi utilisée dans les activités culturelles, commerciales et économiques2. De plus, une partie des orthodoxes albanophones exprime un très fort sentiment national grecN 2 et ce sont eux qui soutiennent les premiers le mouvement autonomiste épirote3.).. I won't object to trim the correspondent information in the en:wiki article accordingly.Alexikoua (talk) 14:01, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

The French article offers a section called "Population de la région" relating to on the eve of the Balkan Wars the populations of the area. The important part is that it mentions Muslims and their numbers. As i said there are a whole bunch of Greek scholars (as cited above that can be added to fine tune that bit better) that can give info that they where Albanian speakers, in addition to orthodox Albanians. My point was it is mentioned. It also mentions the identity issues Orthodox Albanians had about Hellenism and Albanianism. No trim was done of the ancient era sections on the English page. On this matter either that section goes in whole as it is from the French version as it has been approved as a good article standard, otherwise i am not wasting my time further with this.Resnjari (talk) 14:31, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Allow me to correct you the fr. article has been approved for FA. As you confirm there is no single section about Albanian Orthoxox and Muslims but about the entire demographic situation. The english article offers more detail in the specific issue (speech, identity, what happened in the Ottoman era, why that happened, the total population of the region and the Aromanians, resettlement policy in Orthodox Albanian settlements). I agree that some trimming should be made in the ancient era, but that's not part of the post-medieval situation and is out of the scope of the french article.Alexikoua (talk) 14:59, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Allow me to correct you, the French article has a separate section on population. When we had past discussions about something similar you and one other editor were very opposed to such content. You even attempted to remove some content that was agreed to in the talkpage which you cited above in your posts now. Memory lane is long but its all in the talkpage of that article (and editing history). "The english article offers more detail in the specific issue (speech, identity, what happened in the Ottoman era, why that happened," it offers almost zero and the bit that is mentioned were parts that i pushed strongly for and were heavily opposed by you and another editor. I know about the Ottoman era, Kallivretakis, Psomas, Kokolakis, Nitsiakos etc all give information, the first 3 quite dense information on the demographic situation. The point is this, for a translation into Albanian the Albanian element which was then and is still the majority would need to be cited in the English version of the article, otherwise no translation -hence that population section goes in whole from the French. I am not going to translate a article that has no mention of Muslim Albanians, when even the Greek army of the day prepared statistics and so on and acknowledged that presence. I am not going to translate a article that has little to nothing on Orthodox Albanians and their identity issues being between Hellenism and Albanianism and their early support for Northern Epirus, and what way it went in the end which Psomas states clearly (in his work that has the title "Northern Epirus" in it) was pivotal in determining the region eventually remaining in Albania. The starting off point is that whole section from the French article gets added. Otherwise why are we having this discussion about a Northern Epirus article in Alb. Wikipedia? No Albanian editor will translate, as it is of no consequence to them and just a blimp, a bad memory of long ago and Greek irredentist nationalistic propaganda that only deserves a line or two in the wider Epirus article as a historical footnote.Resnjari (talk) 15:38, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

the French article has a separate section on population. Sure, not just about Muslim and Orthodox Albanians as you initially claimed (this would be UNDUE). The English article has a separate demographics section too, while the Orthodox and Muslim Albanian presence is mentioned in various parts of this article. In general the English article has at least twice as much information about this topic compared to the French one: that's an argument to trim (not to inflate) this kind of information in order to avoid UNDUE. In general FA articles are fine examples on how we should deal with such topic.Alexikoua (talk) 20:58, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

I made the awfully time-wasting mistake of looking through the archives of North Epirus (if anyone wants to make the same mistake – [[19]], [[20]], [[21]], etc…), and I have to say that while I do agree with Resnjari that there are some problems with the page, I don’t agree with some proposed fixes by him at least as they were presented on that talkpage, and I found myself frequently agreeing with Alexikoua and Khirurg. For example, examples of things that happened in insignificant villages like Mursi and Vuno, presented as if they applied to the whole region only creates new problems. The proposed section about post-1992 Orthodox Albanians veered dangerously close to anti-Orthodox conspiracy theories that are not things we want a page resembling. To Resnjari’s credit, he seems to have backed away from including these things upon later thought, but I thought they were still important to note in case they came up again. One must steer clear of both the Greek irredentist POV and the Albanian nationalist POV (and also the Muslim-Albanian-synthesis-nationalist POV, which many other Albanians dispute).

I do see bad problems, though they aren’t the exact same set Resnjari sees. For one, there’s the fact that either we’re talking about an irredentist concept that Albanians hate, in which case we can’t talk about stuff on the page that occurred long before said irredentist concept existed, or we’re talking about a geographical region in which case we must observe NPOV and talk about the local history of all groups present in the region. Lastly, there is an issue of misleading ways of presenting regional demographics as mostly Greek while sources widely dispute this, which is seen in three maps across the page, but the sourced info on the actual distribution of Greeks is found only in one small paragraph jammed in the middle of the page that a reader is likely to miss (this one Resnjari already touched on, but I have a lot to add). Sometimes reviewers who don’t know the topic matter well can miss major issues and give a page an award without realizing them. My analysis got long and I’m too busy to trim, so I’ve put it in a box, but please read if you are interested in the issues involved with fixing the page.

indepth on issues on North Epirus

1) Anachronism – how are we defining “Northern Epirus” here? It’s clear that it is not a geographical definition, but a political one nested in irredentist ideology. Parts of Korca county are historically part of a different region, Makedonia, but they’re included. Vlora is in the north of geographical Epirus, but it is not in the definition used by this page, because Greek irredentists did not want an area full of Albanian-speaking Muslims. Similarly, Konitsa is also in the northern part of Epirus, but it’s not included; it’s already in Greece. So it’s clear the page is not like Crimea, an irredentist claim that actually has clear geographic boundaries, and more like Aegean Macedonia, a region defined by an irredentist ideology. As thus, Northern Epirus did not exist before the modern era, so all the stuff about the Ancient times and the Middle Ages is outside of the scope of the article, and must be deleted. Ottoman stuff is relevant context though. Relevant articles to discuss these things include Epirus (which is actually a geographic region), History of Albania and Greeks in Albania.

2) If the anachronism problem isn’t fixed, at the very least the history could be written in a way balanced between the different ethnicities of the region. Khirurg made a good point on the talk page that a reason for not discussing this is that Northern Epirus is a mostly Greek (irredentist) concept and indeed Albanians hate it, but one also can’t have it both ways. Either (a) we take Khirurg’s fair point and make the page about the irredentist concept (I greatly prefer this), or, if everyone opposes this, then we are writing about a geographic region not an irredentist concept, and we must follow NPOV and include the histories of other groups that have been in the region—Slavs settled there too, Butrint was part of the medieval Kingdom of Albania, etc…

3) This is a long one, so I’d forgive someone for skipping it, but it hits on issues I have with both the current page and proposed alternatives. The page is clearly written about Greeks, and it only mentions the fact that Greeks mostly live in a subregion (Vurg, Pogon, Himara, Dropull, urban Gjirokaster) once (in a paragraph that bears Resnjari’s writing style). A reader of the page naturally comes to the conclusion that Greeks were the vast majority of the region, especially given the map that puts the vast majority as having “historical Greek presence” (I assume this means late Ottoman based on the distribution). But this is misleading. Even Greek writers repeatedly show this. In a large part of the region, the Korca and Permet areas in particular, there are few if any Greeks and many historical studies didn’t note any. I’ve looked hard. There are in fact a few notable Greek villages in Southern Carcove, and a few in Leskovik commune. I did find one note on Mborje as Greek by Aravandinos, and there were Greeks in Moscopole and a few in other urban centers like Korca, and to a lesser extent Bilisht. But it really ends there, and isn’t anything like the map portrays.

And then, of course I can see that saying this will trigger the argument that the non-Greek speaking Orthodox all identified as Greek (it has before, as I can see from the talk page histories). That badly stretches verifiability. The source burden is much more here than might be argued – not only does the view of Orthodox=Greek need to prove that they didn’t identify as Albanians, it also has to show that Greek was their personal ethnic identity without significant exception. There are no opinion polls from the 1910s, so I’m sorry, but that is unverifiable (to say the least). There’s also overwhelming evidence of that exceptions to the rule abounded. For the Vlachs, yes, plenty, but other alternatives did exist. For the Slavs, there was support for the Exarchate in places like Boboshtica. And for the Albanian Orthodox, while there were indeed many Greek-identifying Albanian Christians in some (but not all) areas of Laberia, this was not the case for a whole lot of them in Korcha.

Even supporting the Greek side was not a reliable predictor of Greek identity— one recurrent theme that shows up in accounts of the period is that many Orthodox supported Greek claims not because they identified as Greeks, but because the Greek nationalists promised land reform, and solve the land poverty issue that had arisen from the millet system and was a central part of Orthodox life (it was the reason so many emigrated). Ploumidis talks about this—many Orthodox sided with the Greeks as a “lesser evil”, he says. But others, including Muslim politicians like Avni Rustemi, also passionately took up the cause of land reform in favor of the poor Orthodox peasants. As Psomas notes, even in his Greek-er “Northwest Epirus” where there were more pro-Greeks and indeed many more actual ethnic Greeks too, as the 20th century continued, sentiment among the young swung increasingly in favor of Albania.

The disproportionate contribution of Orthodox from parts of Northern Epirus to Albanian nationalism has been written about -- the earliest writers (“stage 1” of Albanian nationalism in Rrapaj’s analysis) like Naum Veqilharxhi and Thimi Mitko (who disputed Aravandinos’ work, by the way) came from here as did a disproportionate number of Albanian nationalist writers, Albanian literature and the alphabet and schooling, and so on. Even Islamo-Albanian synthesists like Nexhmedin Spahiu give credit to the Orthodox of the Korcha region for their massive contribution to Albanian nationalism. I know the significance of the contributions of the Orthodox to Albanian nationalism has been disputed by Resnjari in the past— to him, I would present text from Rrapaj, Spahiu, Psilos, Zhelyazkova, Pahumi and others.

This leads into how the “Orthodox=Greek” POV for the region is not only Greek nationalist (against not only Albanian views but also Bulgarian, Macedonian and Romanian) but also plays into the more narrow Muslim Albanian POV (inserted intentionally or not) with regard to the view of Christians as a fifth column and the minimization of their contributions, intentionally or not. Indeed, contrary to the way things are portrayed currently on pages like Albanian nationalism, plenty of sources adequately show that there were similar divisions among Sunni Albanians, and that among many Sunni Albanians (unlike Bektashis) a faction that viewed itself as primarily Muslim and Ottoman and opposed Albanian independence resisted Albanian nationalism and continued to assert itself even after independence, as noted in various ways by various authors including Psilos, Rrapaj, Bozbora, Babuna, Duijzings, Psomas, Krasniqi, Skendi and so on. Indeed, discussing the “Hellenism” of certain Orthodox Albanians without discussing what Skendi calls the “Turcoman” party among the Sunnis can come off as unbalanced.

Of course it isn’t true that the Orthodox all identified as Albanians either (sources refute this too), but the problem is that in a complicated situation, the page doesn’t mention the limits of Greek settlement except in one paragraph, has a map showing Greeks all over the region despite extensive sourcing to the contrary that I’m sure Resnjari has already gone into plenty of detail about, and only shows one side of the Greek irredentist claim that “Orthodox=Greek” without any reference to those (plenty) who disagreed and disagree, or the complicated nature of the situation. One very easy way to solve most of this problem is to remove or at least qualify three maps on the page that make it look, to someone who missed (probably) Resnjari’s small paragraph, like all the Orthodox and even many Muslims are “Greeks”.

Thanks all for who took the time to read, and hopefully these issues can be resolved in ways that include minimal edit warring along national lines as some of these issues are not actually strictly “Greek vs. Albanian” issues (or at least I don’t view them so). Also feel free, anyone, to move this back to the North Epirus page. This entire conversation has gotten really far off topic from the German wiki article. --Yalens (talk) 23:58, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Looking over your suggestions, i am in agreement. The discussion had on the Northern Epirus page was some years ago and my position had changed due to discussion on the talkpage about adding very small additions such as what i proposed on a few villages. I also agree with Khirug that the article should be about an irredentist concept. However no one followed on with comments about how to improve or get the article going to reflect this. Any attempt on my part was immediately viewed as "irrelevant" and the discussion just withered away as no one replied, for months and then years. A small note on my addition about modern Greek demographics in the region, the addition into the article (hard fought too to even have it there) was to have information about the presence of Greeks. Some additional information is needed on historical demographics too, which other editors are not keen on. Obviously and common sense would be not to include very village etc. But a few sentences are needed. The French demographics section is a good place to start in it being translated and added to the English article and should remove any POV issues on the issue considering as Alexikoua states he helped compose that article. Also in the past i hadn't come across Psomas' study (which has the word Northern Epirus in the title). That section can be greatly strengthened with Psomas, Kallivretakis, Kokolakis and Nitsiakos. Usage of Psomas source would go a long way to clarify many outstanding issues in the context of some sentences which may be irrelevant with some but important for others in the article.Resnjari (talk) 13:17, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

It's important to note that good articles can be also be targeted by vandalism and disruption. I recommend to instantly revert such edits (none cares about the personal obsessions of the "vandals").Alexikoua (talk) 13:03, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

They can, but often they don't receive that treatment. Still many times when recommendations about addressing issues with the Northern Epirus article are placed we don't hear from you for a while in the talkpage. What of Yalens' suggestions, as i gave the courtesy of reply?Resnjari (talk) 23:50, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

In general vandalism and disruption is not an indicator on how good/bad an article is written. I would say that articles of great importance will be usually targeted by this kind of activity.Alexikoua (talk) 14:03, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

It can go either way on that issue. Anyway, what of Yalens suggestions on the Northern Epirus, what is your view ?Resnjari (talk) 14:14, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

The issues have already been addressed, I'm simply repeating my thoughts: 1. history needs only some trimming in antiquity section, 2. historic regions as N.E. never had precise borders since they are not administrative regions (for example Korce region belonged to Epirus in medieval times but later not), 3. the name is in use mainly in the Greek context, since Albanian literature avoids its existence, thus there is an emphasis on the Greek character of the region. We have a similar approach in Chameria: the article is focused on the local Albanian element though there is no evidence that Albanians made the majority.Alexikoua (talk) 14:38, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

The issues have not been addressed, as pointed out by Yalens in a very detailed fashion. If the article is to about more than a irredentist concept (I agree with Yalens that it should only be about that -even Khirug proposed that it be about that back in the day), but about some ill defined region purporting to encompass a quarter to half of Albania then it needs to incorporate other details such as demographics covering all groups, even religious i.e Albanian Muslims. On the Greek element dominating, even Greek scholarship (i.e Psomas, Kallivretakis and especially Kokolakisis) not in sync with that outdated 19th -early 20th century view held in Greek circles of the day. To clarify are you interpreting Greek to mean all Orthodox people in this context in the area?Resnjari (talk) 14:55, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Kokolakis is centered on the Yanina Vilayet, more than 2/3 of this region is not considered N.E. (the Vilayet included vast areas around Fier to Shkumbin, the Greek part of Epirus etc.). Kallivretakis' study is a good example: he is focused on the Greek element of the region and offers detailed estimations of the Greek communities etc, that's the way scholarship in general deals with this type of issues.Alexikoua (talk) 15:11, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Morevoer, both Winnifrith and Stickney (a Stanfort Uni. publication) offer detailed descriptions about antiquity. It's obvious that antiquity is not irrelevant with the subject.Alexikoua (talk) 15:22, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes i am aware of that, and yet there is huge overlap with Kokolakis and the area he focuses on (at least half the area of northern epirus). Thing is Psomas covers the whole territory defined in Greek (irredentist) circles as Northern Epirus and notes in his work (bearing that term in the very title of his work) that the Orthodox Albanian element where the decisive factor that made the region remain in Albania -not small by any stretch. Odd that nothing regarding that is cited in the article. Have a read of the study. On Kallivretakis, i agree its a good study and yet it focuses on the area of where people who are the Greek speaking element are mainly found. The northern Epirus article claims to purport that it covers an area extending all the way to Kolonja, Korca etc. Its there that we run into bigger problems. Yalens outlined much that is problematic with the article. I have taken on board his critique about how i went about it and agree with the suggestions proposed. Going by things here you still have not made up your mind about whether this is a irredentist concept or a real region. Three editors so far have a preference that the article only deal with the iredentist aspect to avoid this confusion.Resnjari (talk) 15:30, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

1) As I said before, you can't have it both ways. Either you make like the French article -- and Khirurg's suggestion -- and make it about the modern irredentist concept (my preference), in which case you have to delete all the history that isn't late Ottoman or later, or you make it about the (ill-defined) "region", in which case you have to discuss history in a balanced way that includes the local histories of all groups, not just Greeks. You're still trying to have it both ways, and not engaging with the inherent issue.

2) Alexikoua, since you brought up Chameria -- I have to remind you that the bulk of my additions to that page have in fact been to include more coverage of non-Albanian groups who live there. I intend to do more of that. Aside from WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS, Chameria/Tsamouria is a bad counterpoint to North Epirus anyways as while that latter is only defined by irredentist claims, Chameria at least has a folkloric definition as an "ethnographic region" that used to be recognized by Greeks as well. But the point stands -- for balance unless the page pertains to only one group (i.e. it's an irredentist, and not geographic, region), you need include info from all groups, and on Chameria I've followed through with this by adding info about the Greeks and Vlachs present. --Yalens (talk) 23:24, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

I agree. If the article is to be about a irredentist concept, then apart from the Ottoman and Ancient history bits being scraped (or content moved to other relevant article that may not have that info), even a demographics bit wont be needed. On content relating to Northern Epirus thereafter, then we can work things out. Shouldn't be difficult after and then i would do a translation in Albanian.Resnjari (talk) 03:28, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

N.E. is not just an irrendetism term (see lede of the article) & the area of Korce was in the past part of 'Epirus', though historic regions never have precise borders. I remind you that the Greek communities of N.E. have also their distinct features in folklore which are not common among their co-nationals in Greece. I also fail to see how the Greek communities in Chameria have distinct "ethnographic region" since you claim that about Chameria (or you try to present Chameria as a purely Albanian region?).Alexikoua (talk) 17:35, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Its a term used by Greeks in Albania and Vlachs who identify as Greeks outside the Greek speaking area. It is not used by Muslim Albanians or Orthodox Albanians, Albanian speaking people or Albanians who are the majority and don't identify the area as such. Anyway, you still have not addressed matters outlined by Yalens. You want the best of both worlds. The article is either as a region which means it needs to contain additional info or an irredentist concept in which much cutting is required.Resnjari (talk) 07:21, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

I fail to see any new issue in the current discussion. All questions have been already addressed in detail in the relevant talkpage. I also don't understand your rationale to present Chameria as an "Albanian cultural area" (nationalism is a typical feature in Balkan related topics), though the majority is Greek-speaking (even Elsie admits that half of the region i.e. Preveza prefecture contains very few Albanian speaking settlements).Alexikoua (talk) 13:04, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

No there isn't a issue, there are a whole host of issues as highlighted by Yalens which your not responding to. On Preveza prefecture it does not contain just a few Orthodox Albanian speaking settlements. For starters the Fanari area contains areas inhabited by Orthodox Albanian speaking people [22] Baltsiotis p.5, etc. Discussing or highlighting the speech of an area used by people who live there is not nationalism.Resnjari (talk) 13:42, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Sorry to disappoint you but south of Parga: Albanian-speaking settlement "were sporadically southwards as far as Preveza", (Elsie). Baltsiotis deals with the "Albanian pocket of Chameria" which is geographically much smaller from the area defined as Chameria, nevertheless the settlements he mentions south of Acheron are "sporadic" according to him too. A similar situation exists about N.E. and the ethnic Greek communities (the Greek element isn't dominant in the entire area). Thus, imagine Chameria article being written according to the current demographic situation.Alexikoua (talk) 13:56, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes i know Elsie, however Baltsiotis has done fieldwork and written on the subject so i am not disappointed but informed due to scholarship. The Chameria article contains demographics on statistics back in the day and today. I should note that no one is saying that the Orthodox Albanian speakers in Greek Epirus are Albanians (even in Albania wikipedia i made sure that references to this population are shqipfolës ortodokse, not shqiptarë ortodoske) and they consider themselves Greeks (Moraitis - [23], Sintes -p.90 [24] link to quote, its the 2nd paragraph and in French [25]. However the language is still around in the area, just like Aromanian is in other areas of Greece, Slavic Macedonian etc. On the main issue here, progress is being made in that you acknowledged that the Greek speaking element was not dominant in the entire area of Southern Albania (or Northern Epirus) -however that is not noted in the article. Psomas' work (which includes in his title the word Northern Epirus outlines the issues and notes that Orthodox Albanians were the determining factor that in the end left the region in Albania. This is not cited once in the current wiki article, and other issues as highlighted by Yalens are left outstanding.Resnjari (talk) 14:22, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Chameria article contains demographics on statistics back in the day and today. It doesn't appear to be exactly that way: the statistics have excluded half of this region (Preveza prefecture and its Fanari part) most probably in order to inflate the Albanian percentage. On the other hand N.E. article states that the region was inhabited by various ethnicities and offers a total population estimate 500+k. Thus if we have an article that needs a POV tag I can name one.Alexikoua (talk) 14:37, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

The 500+k estimate is on the modern era. Nothing about the official Greek view of 1919 and its statistics etc, yet alone other content about ethnicities, speech etc apart from a few sentences which you and another editor vehemently opposed -and now say in recent comments as being satisfactory. As pointed out above by Yalens, the article has massive amounts of issues, and i hope you have read that detailed overview. Respond to those issues otherwise we are going around in circles. I have never said the Chameria article is perfect, however it does cite figures from various sources of back in the day, Greek, Albanian etc. On Preveza prefecture and Fanari, are you referring to old statistics or modern? If its the latter there are none from the Albanian side. On older statistics, Albanian and other numbers don't highlight micro-regions like Fanari. The article also cites that Muslim Albanians are no longer present in the Greek side of the border (apart from a handful of people, as per Baltsiotis) and Orthodox Albanian speakers there consider themselves Greek.Resnjari (talk) 15:04, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Let me sup up (again):

Recent concerns by Resnjari	What's in the current articles
"Nothing about the official Greek view of 1919.. ethnicities, speech etc"	let me remind you on some parts: ...official Greek government policy from c. 1850 to c. 1950, adopted the view that speech was not a decisive factor for the establishment of a Greek national identity and According to the Ottoman "Millet" system, religion was a major marker of ethnicity, and thus all Orthodox Christians (Greeks, Aromanians, Orthodox Albanians, Slavs etc.) were classified as "Greeks", while all Muslims (including Muslim Albanians, Greeks, Slavs etc.) were considered "Turks and yet again traditionally Orthodox Albanian speaking regions of internally polarized national identity and During this time, some Greeks and Orthodox Albanians with a Greek national consciousness managed to flee Albania and resettle in Greece and loyalty in Northern Epirus especially amongst the Orthodox to potential Albanian rule headed by (Albanian) Muslim leaders was not guaranteed ... to name only some parts. Off course this isn't the place to analyze each statistics (the Greek of 1919 for example, though the result are briefly mentioned).
On Preveza prefecture and Fanari, are you referring to old statistics or modern?	Both (there is "absolute" nothing about, contrary to N.E.)
On older statistics, Albanian and other numbers don't highlight micro-regions like Fanari.	Cassavetes' table offers estimates from the Preveza & Louros cazas which according to Elsie are part Chameria (the current table doesn't include this regions, thus it implies that there is no Chameria south of the Acheron).

Alexikoua (talk) 17:29, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Why are you two again derailing the conversation with Chameria? Not analogous, even if it was WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. If as you say N Epirus is not an irredentist region but a historical one, than the portrayal of said regions history must be balanced between groups which means you don't only or mostly talk about Greek history there. Can't have your cake once you've eaten it (well, I mean you can, but I doubt you'd really want that...) --Yalens (talk) 20:20, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

The head of this section is neither N.E. nor Chameria, but Albanians communities in Greece German article. Thus both Chameria and N.E. can't be unrelated to a wider Greek-Albanian discussion. Alexikoua (talk) 20:54, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

This is very true and I said before that I regret that Othon's thread has turned into this. But if we want to accomplish anything, trying to deal with multiple difficult issues at once is never the way to go. Really this convo should have been moved to Talk:Northern Epirus ages ago. Also, you seem to claim that I either said Greeks have their own "ethnographic" region in Chameria or that it's purely Albanian -- unless I have vastly misunderstood something this is a gross mischaracterization of what I said. The reference was to the historical ethnographic region (in a sense that transcends ethnicity, Balkan anthros loooove these) in a binational and multiethnic area (it used to be recognized in Greek as well, before it got associated with irredentism). Hope I misunderstood that one. --Yalens (talk) 01:13, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Hmmm it seems we are digging alot of issues at once and this is very consuming at least. I understand everyone's points, but there is a reason why the Chameria article focuses more on Cham Albanians, the people the region is associated most with, than on Greeks, while the Northern Epirus article focuses more on Northern Epirotes, the people the region is associated most with, than on Albanians. Of course we know that both regions were or are still multiethnic and that there are aspects of life that are not properly tackled in either of the articles. However, I oppose to any changes to neither Chameria nor Northern Epirus, and that any information regarding the multiethnic character of the regions (i.e. information about both Greeks and Albanians through history, about customs, culture, religion, etc) to be added on their modern-day, state definitions of these regions: Epirus (region of Greece) and Southern Albania. I noticed that both articles are seriously lacking despite their rich history. And both will definitely need to be worked out and expanded, because Greek Epirus and Southern Albania are more neutral terms which both the Albanians and Greeks can be associated with, bear no irredendist connotations of any kind, and this alone makes them an ideal solution to all problems tackled here in this discussion. --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 06:58, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

The structure of Northern Epirus article is well balanced and contains all necessary information about the various ethnic groups in various time periods that co-extist(ed) with the Greek communities. I've addressed a number of serious POV issues in Chameria article which are fixed in N.E. (statistics about the entire area etc.).Alexikoua (talk) 12:55, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

True that, thanks Alexikoua. --❤ SILENTRESIDENT ❤ 18:59, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

Neither Greek Epirus nor whole Epirus is equivalent to the much smaller Chameria (despite maybe some wacky claims by Alb nationalists that don't deserve discussion), nor is North Epirus equivalent to the larger South Albania, so it's difficult to see how, while helpful, adding stuff there could resolve the issue. Alexikoua's claims that contains all necessary information about the various ethnic groups in various time periods that co-extist(ed) with the Greek communities; I strongly disagree as most discussion of hte history of Slavs, Vlachs, Albanians and Roma in the area is woefully missing. Some of these groups aren't mentioned even once on the page. Now if we were talking about a region defined by modern irredentism, as various editors and authors too have pointed out N Epirus to be, then this would be fine, but the article portrays the region as some sort of organic historical region that transcends time and history. If it is a geographic region, then you have to respect WP:BALANCE and include info on all ethnic groups that have been historically present, and not portray the region as mostly Greek (which pretty much all serious demographic analyses, including those done by Greek authors Kokolakis, Kallivretakis, Giakoumis, and even Psomas' studies dispute). On the other hand, if it's an irredentist region obviously it's anachronistic to have stuff about medieval times and ancient history-- imagine if Illyrian history showed up on Greater Albania; obviously that's ridiculous and would come off as very sketchy to say the least. You can't have you're cake and eat it, and you also can't keep ignoring the issue here. -Yalens (talk) 19:41, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

All of the sudden I had once the same question about Chameria (which I really don't understand why you avoid to discuss in this section), but I realized that this term is connected with Albanian culture as an Albanian historical region. Same stuff about N.E.: the term is connected with Greek history and it's mentioned in Greek literature and not only as an irredentism term but also as a historical-cultural region. Albanian literature avoids even the existence of N.E. thus the focus should be the Greek element of the region and its history and culture. All various groups are mentioned in N.E. article, but historical-cultural regions that are associated with a specific culture&community need to be focused accordingly. Similar to Chameria we have Laberia (also an Albanian cultural region). Does this mean that Laberia is an exclusively Albanian-speaking region per this edit [[26]]? Off course not.Alexikoua (talk) 20:56, 10 October 2017 (UTC

More Chameria Whataboutism as I feared. Look, I have edited Chameria to increase the coverage of the presence of Greeks and Vlachs. I have always been consistent on this. It's not analogous anyways as I have said a gazillion times. As for Laberia yes there are Vlachs and Greeks in Himara, near Vlore, and Pogon in the definitions where it includes Pogon (it's inconsistent) but nowhere on the page does it give the impression that the region is only inhabited by Albanians. The word "Albanian" occurs only 11 times, and only 5 in the main text (excluding translations, see also, categories). How that edit somehow implies that I thought it was only Albanian-speaking is a completely absurd interpretation that -- I'm sorry -- seems to be done solely to make ill-formed Whataboutism arguments. Indeed I've added info to the Lab dialect about language contact effects with Greek, so it's completely beyond me-- and outrageous-- that you suggest my position is otherwise. As has been said a gazillion times, being an "Albanian ethnographic region" does not imply it is mostly Albanian -- quite the opposite as Dropull and Pogon are considered ethnographic regions and everyone acknowledges they are mostly Greek. Hopefully we would be able to discuss in a constructive way that involves engagement rather than deflection with opposing points, but it seems that yet again, I was naive. --Yalens (talk) 21:21, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

You added in Laberia's language section the Lab Albanian dialect link as 'main article' of this section (according to the text that's the only speech that exists there). I fear that this can be easily considered wp:UNDUE and wp:POV. On the other hand the N.E. article is written in a more balanced way and avoids this kind POV. I also don't understand why we should avoid articles that are closely connected with each other N.E., Chameria etc. it's essential to examine them together so we have a good picture about the Greek-Albanian-Epirus topics.Alexikoua (talk) 11:51, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I added the defining dialect of a dialect-defined region which is historically spoken by the overwhelming majority of inhabitants in Lab-eria -- wow, scandalous. I also added info on pages about Lab topics that referred to the presence of Greek speech in the vicinity. I guess I'll assume you didn't see that. I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to characterize my editing based on your interpretation of one specifically picked edit, thank you. Anyhow, this did make me realize the page could be improved by noting the local Himariote dialect of Greek, which is also notable, as well as other idioms [[27]]. --Yalens (talk) 14:29, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Yalens edits were needed in the Chameria article and also in the Laberia article. On Nortthern Epirus seriously saying that it covers issues of speech of demographics, when the article does not even mention Muslim Albanians apart from them opposing the Northern Epirus movement (why did they oppose ? - not outlined in the article) is POV and a big omission from the article considering that even the Greek government of the day recognised that there were Muslim Albanians in the area who made up under half the population in the area defined as "Northern Epirus". And on Orthodox Albanians Psomas clearly states it was due to them being the decisive factor in swinging the area from not becoming part of Greece. Also omitted from the article. At the moment all one gets from the article is that Muslim Albanians are a foreign element introduced under Enver's era into the area ignoring the sizable native historic Muslim Albanian element.Resnjari (talk) 04:01, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Both Laberia & Chameria articles suffer from serious POV and SYNTH issues and thanks to my interventions Albanian isn't the only language spoken in SW Albania. It would be also better to avoid sarcastic comments about the demographic condition of the region: I wonder how a region that includes most of Gjirokaster, Delvina & Saranda regions has an "overwhelming Albanian majority". Kallivretakis states (a source provided repeatedly by Resnjari) that the Greek element forms an absolute majority in Delvine and is the most numerous ethnic-religious group in both Saranda and Gjirokster regions. I would suggest that both articles should be improved so they reach the quality of articles such as N.E. (the later apart from some trimming in antiquity section- is in good shape).Alexikoua (talk) 13:46, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

That's fine about interventions. Likewise what has been pointed out by me and now Yalens is that the Northern Epirus article suffers from much POV and SYNTH issues. On Gjirokaster, Saranda and Delvina regions the way the areas were composed regarding municipal boundaries of the time gave them at least with 2 an Albanian majority as noted by Greek scholar Kallivretakis who did detailed fieldwork there in all the villages. Migration has occurred and the Albanian state has done redone the municipal borders at least twice over the two decades. The latest redrawing has actually given Greeks two majority municipalities (Dropull and Finiq) containing most Greek speaking villages in the country. The point i have been making is that Northern Epirus, which you want treated as a region in the article ought to have similar content about other ethnic groups like Muslim Albanians of which the Greek state acknowledged in 1919 in its statistics (they here just under half of the population) of Northern Epirus presented to the Paris Peace conference. German Wikipedia on the N.E. article has those kind of numbers. Even a map on English Wikipedia shows that in map form, yet the info is lacking in the article to explain this. And then there is the omission about Orthodox Albanians which Psomas states clearly were the decisive factor that swung the region toward staying in Albania.Resnjari (talk) 14:22, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

I still fail to see how the "overwhelming majority" of NW Albania speaks Lab Albanian: If we believe Kallivretakis Greeks are the most numerous ethnic-religious groups in this region (especially in Delvine there is an absolute majority). That was only one issue of many serious POV issues in this article: the culture of Laberia also appears to be exclusively Albanian (mysteriously they sing only in Albanian there). As for Chameria, it appears that if we add the Preveza prefecture numbers from Cassavetes estimates (paradoxically only the Theprosita+Konispol region data were taken from this book) all of the sudden Albanian speakers will become a minority in the region.Alexikoua (talk) 15:20, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

Please lets not place assumptions on the scholarship of academics who have done fieldwork with "if we believe". Kallivretakis is clear (and not POV) as he went village by village in the area. Post 1992, villages are the same (even with a decline of population -as no one has moved in unless in some of the coastal villages, except for big urban centres as well like Saranda). On singing and the Laberia region, Orthodox Greek speaking villages in the Himara area have been noted to be bilingual in their songs [28] -anyway what does that have to do with this ? Also i was not sure what you meant but the the Lab dialect is not spoken in "NW Albania" which is the Durres to Shkoder area, the gheg dialect is spoken there. On Chameria, Cassavetes is not the only one - i have stuff to add for that article in future (waiting on Baltsiotis to publish). On Northern Epirus your still not addressing the issues brought up by Yalens.Resnjari (talk) 15:39, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

(outdent) It's pretty disappointing, Alexikoua, that despite being presented with clear evidence to the contrary, you persist in making defamatory insinuations about my editing. some might say I deserve an apology.

And on top of that we have a strawman rampage going on here? Did I say Laberia was overwhelmingly Albanian? No, I said it overwhelmingly speaks Lab -- which includes bilingual regions like Himara which is known for both its distinctive Greek dialect and its distinctive Albanian dialect. Then there is the fact that those Greek regions you refer to in the Gjirokaster, Sarande, and Delvine districts -- namely Vurg and Dropull -- most often aren't included in the definition of Laberia (indeed Xarre never is -- if anything it's Chameria); when they are, it is always the most extensive version of the region which always includes densely populated Vlore and Mallakaster. And then, somehow you cooked up this idea that the page or someone says people sing only in Albanian there? There is nothing of the sort to be found.

Anyhow, I see that this is going nowhere positive, so I suggest we abort this discussion for now, and I don't see any new understanding between sides coming out of this. I regret the direction this entire discussion has taken, and I apologize for my role in taking it down that path. I'm out of here, Resnjari and Alexikoua I suggest you two desist as well as no one is benefiting from this. --Yalens (talk) 16:56, 12 October 2017 (UTC)

A hopefully quick favor requiring a Greek speaker

This seems like as good a place to ask as any. Currently we're down to the last several thousand Neelix redirects, and a small chunk of those are Greek language. If someone would care to take a look through them, they're here; if you're not familiar with redirects and/or the ongoing Neelix cleanup efforts, read over the instructions at RfD and WP:X1. It'd be hugely appreciated. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:21, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Disambiguation links on pages tagged by this wikiproject

Wikipedia has many thousands of wikilinks which point to disambiguation pages. It would be useful to readers if these links directed them to the specific pages of interest, rather than making them search through a list. Members of WikiProject Disambiguation have been working on this and the total number is now below 20,000 for the first time. Some of these links require specialist knowledge of the topics concerned and therefore it would be great if you could help in your area of expertise.

A list of the relevant links on pages which fall within the remit of this wikiproject can be found at http://69.142.160.183/~dispenser/cgi-bin/topic_points.py?banner=WikiProject_Greece

Please take a few minutes to help make these more useful to our readers.— Rod ^talk 15:50, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Is Ouzeri a notable concept?

I've stumbled upon this stub which doesn't even seem to have a Greek Wikipedia counterpart. Is this something that is unique and notable, or could we just redirect it to tavern or such? As written, the article doesn't make a good claim for notability, and my quick scan of sources didn't turn out anything great, neither. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:43, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi User:Piotrus! Well, an ouzeri (or its variant, tsipouradiko) is a special genre of establishment. It is definitely not a "tavern" in the conventional sense. You go to an ouzeri to spend time with friends and drink, not to eat your fill. I'd definitely consider it notable as a very distinctive part of Greek culinary culture. --Constantine ✍ 13:49, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. It still sounds to me like, well, a bar. I think it should be merged to Bar#Locations. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:52, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Hmmm... It's sort of in between a bar, a pub, and a bistro. It is its own thing, both in a culinary and in a cultural way, and I am not sure we gain anything by redirecting it. Constantine ✍ 07:42, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

It may be notable for non-greeks. There is no article in Gree WP because everybody knows what it is and how it functions. It is central in Greek pop culture, and mentioned in songs, films etc. If it is not any harm, just leave it.--Skylax30 (talk) 08:37, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

References

Are there any references from the Government Gazette about the coat of arms of the Kingdom of Greece, its alterations etc.? --5.54.9.85 (talk) 11:50, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Persecution of Eastern Orthodox Christians listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Persecution of Eastern Orthodox Christians to be moved to Anti-Eastern Orthodox sentiment. This page is of interest to several relating WikiProjects and interested users may want to participate in the discussion here. Sorabino (talk) 21:45, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Featured article candidacy for Cleopatra

I'd like to inform the members of the WikiProject that I have nominated Cleopatra for Featured Article status, after a recently successful Good Article candidacy. If you are interested in making comments or offering suggestions, please feel free to visit the FA candidacy page. Pericles of Athens^Talk 14:37, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Education

The article “Education in Greece” needs a lot of additional citations for verification. There are only ~5; far too few for an article of its length.--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 03:05, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Wiki4MediaFreedom

Hi. If you have time, please take a look on meta at this page m:Wiki4MediaFreedom contest. It's an event organized by Rossella Vignola (OBC), there is a list of articles to improve also on English wikipedia.--Alexmar983 (talk) 20:34, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject collaboration notice from the Portals WikiProject

The reason I am contacting you is because there are one or more portals that fall under this subject, and the Portals WikiProject is currently undertaking a major drive to automate portals that may affect them.

Portals are being redesigned.

The new design features are being applied to existing portals.

At present, we are gearing up for a maintenance pass of portals in which the introduction section will be upgraded to no longer need a subpage. In place of static copied and pasted excerpts will be self-updating excerpts displayed through selective transclusion, using the template {{Transclude lead excerpt}}.

The discussion about this can be found here.

Maintainers of specific portals are encouraged to sign up as project members here, noting the portals they maintain, so that those portals are skipped by the maintenance pass. Currently, we are interested in upgrading neglected and abandoned portals. There will be opportunity for maintained portals to opt-in later, or the portal maintainers can handle upgrading (the portals they maintain) personally at any time.

Background

On April 8th, 2018, an RfC ("Request for comment") proposal was made to eliminate all portals and the portal namespace. On April 17th, the Portals WikiProject was rebooted to handle the revitalization of the portal system. On May 12th, the RfC was closed with the result to keep portals, by a margin of about 2 to 1 in favor of keeping portals.

There's an article in the current edition of the Signpost interviewing project members about the RfC and the Portals WikiProject.

Since the reboot, the Portals WikiProject has been busy building tools and components to upgrade portals.

So far, 84 editors have joined.

If you would like to keep abreast of what is happening with portals, see the newsletter archive.

If you have any questions about what is happening with portals or the Portals WikiProject, please post them on the WikiProject's talk page.

Thank you.    — The Transhumanist   07:40, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Template needs help

{{Infobox Greek prefecture}} is broken — the area_rank parameter displays wikicode instead of the links it’s supposed to. I don’t know enough about templates to fix it myself, and I don’t know whether keeping that parameter is important or not. I hope someone here can clean it up. Thanks! NotARabbit (talk) 17:05, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Olive oil

Hello, I have been making contributions to olives, olive oil, and olive cultivar articles including concerning Greece. I recently added referenced content to the "Production" section of Olive oil that was pretty quickly double reverted: 1)- Because I made implications that "Greece includes Crete", and to 2)- "trim content on Greece as outdated". Some of the content was kept but not all.

Some of the added content concerned agourélaio olive oil that I thought interesting and encyclopedic so I commented on the talk page with no results. There was comments made concerning balance as deletion reasoning but that is not accurate. If someone has the time and interest to look I would appreciate it. Otr500 (talk) 23:08, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Translation help at Stefanos Tsitsipas talk page

An editor asked for help in translating a source at Talk:Stefanos Tsitsipas and I thought someone here might be able to assist. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:39, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Republic of Ragusa article

At Republic of Ragusa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Republic of Ragusa#IP edits. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:52, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Left-wing insurgency in Greece

WikiProject members are invited to participate and submit their views at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Left-wing insurgency in Greece. Constantine ✍ 16:10, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Spyridon Louis

Urgent assistance is requested on this DYK nomination, as its nominator has not edited on over a week. Thank you. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 00:22, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

RfC on election/referendum naming format

An RfC on moving the year from the end to the start of article titles (e.g. South African general election, 2019 to 2019 South African general election) has been reopened for further comment, including on whether a bot could be used move the articles if it closed in favour of the change: Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (government and legislation)#Proposed change to election/referendum naming format. Cheers, Number 57 15:36, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Stavros "Spyros" Niarchos: name or patronymic?

Γεια σας!

Article Stavros Niarchos starts: Stavros Spyros Niarchos (Greek: Σταύρος Σπύρος Νιάρχος, pronounced [ˈstavros ˈspiros 'ɲarxos]; 3 July 1909 – 16 April 1996) was a multi-billionaire Greek shipping tycoon.

As Spyros Niarchos was the name of his father and according to Greek naming customs it seems logic that "Spyros" should be a patronymic and not a given or middle name, and therefore should be in the genitive form Spyrou. Article should therefore state instead: Stavros Spyrou Niarchos (Greek: Σταύρος Σπύρου Νιάρχος, pronounced [ˈstavros ˈspiru 'ɲarxos])....

Looking up quickly I did not find many uses of either Σταύρος Σπύρος Νιάρχος or Σταύρος Σπύρου Νιάρχος outside of Wikipedia mirrors, except maybe this page which uses Σταύρος Σπύρου Νιάρχος. It seems to me that Greeks would most often just use Σταύρος Νιάρχος ("Stavros Niarchos"), which probably means that "Spyros" is indeed a patronymic and not part of the given name.

What does the project think? Place Clichy (talk) 14:58, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Konstantinos Speras

Is this the Wikipedia:Greek Wikipedians' notice board? We're having some discussion about Greek sources at Talk:Konstantinos Speras, partially impeded by my ability to judge source reliability in the Greek language, if anyone wants to supplement my deficit. (not watching, please {{ping}}) czar 16:36, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Stagira & Siderokausia

Hello! I'm not especially familiar with how changing Wikipedia pages works, but I tried to look into making a change and I wasn't sure exactly how to do it. The two pages in question, Stagira and Siderokausia, seem to be referring to the same town in Greece, and I thought it might make sense to merge the two pages. Though I use Wikipedia often, I don't feel accustomed to editing enough to attempt merging these pages.

If anyone could help in merging these two articles with me or if anyone thinks the articles ought to stay separate, feel free to chime in.

Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tigershark313 (talk • contribs) 05:13, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Inaccuracies and anti-Greek POV pushing in History of Macedonia (ancient kingdom) page

Good morning to everyone. I am a new member in wikipedia and I have started my account because I noticed inaccuracies in the aforementioned page. I will try to present as objectively as I can what is happening to that page, what are my objections and the reasons and arguments of my objections. In the case you agree I suggest to interfer too, or if you disagree, let me know your thoughts and view. Inside the text in the paragraph where the writer talks about Phillip the II, it writes at some point 'in subduying Greece, with the excemption of Sparta'. My objections to this wording are the following: 1st) Sparta was not the only city state of the Ancient classical Greece that Phillip II did not subdue (Crete, Sicily, southern Italy city states, the Aegean islands, are just some of the areas of ancient classical Greece that Phillip did not subdued). Therefore, it cannot be simplified down to just except Sparta. Furthrmore, in what context, do the editors and the writer of the page use the word: subdued? Unless, I am mistaken subdued is to be used as wording when you are allien to a context. Thus by using subdued it gives the impression to non history knowlegeable readers that Macedons were only neighbors to Greeks and did not have any ethnological relation. 3rd) there has been an effort made by other editors in the talk section of this page to oversimplify my point of view and downgrade my arguments, since as they claim, they cannot consider Greek collonies, Crete, Aegean islands and Asia Minor Greece as part of ancient Greece (they probably forget that two of the wonders of antiquity were in Asia Minor city states, and a third one on the island of Rhodes). In fact one of them claimed that what he means when he uses the word Greece in the phrase 'subdue Greece' is only the mainland Greece and not Crete and the other regions I already mentioned. So, in otherwords he misleads, lies with clear knowledge of his action, and in addition that user takes granted that readers and audience of the page are inside his head and thoughts. In addition, how can anyone take out of consideration that Ancient Greeks considered all other Greek parts as Greek. Because in modern times Greece is enclosed to smaller region no one gets legitimacy to project the same in antiquity, even more in an article that has as title History of Macedonia (ancient kingdom). I am not gonna start any discussion on the Macedonia debate I had with another user, its not my intention to do so in the talk of the page History of Macedonia (ancient kingdom). My proposition is to change the wording I mention above with the following: 'won a civil war with certain Greek states' or to be totally erased the wording phrase that reffers to Greece with the term subdued and allienates totally Macedonia from the ancient Greece. Of cource someone may recall what Demosthenes talked of Macedons, but another one propose/say what Cretans thought of Macedons, and how easily they allied with them without hostilities. I would like to hear your thoughts. thank you for reading through this.Tidewings (talk) 10:51, 6 January 2019 (UTC)

Sourcing at Ancient Greek

Hello, The sourcing at Ancient Greek is in a sorry state. I'm willing to help, but I'm not the best placed to do so; the article would probably benefit from members of this project. Your assistance is welcome: please see Talk:Ancient Greek#Sourcing. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 03:22, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

WP 1.0 Bot Beta

Hello! Your WikiProject has been selected to participate in the WP 1.0 Bot rewrite beta. This means that, starting in the next few days or weeks, your assessment tables will be updated using code in the new bot, codenamed Lucky. You can read more about this change on the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team page. Thanks! audiodude (talk) 05:45, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Proposal for "former populated places in Ancient Greece"

Hi people. The Category:Ancient Greece stubs seems to be overcrowded, and also the related Category:Greece geography stubs. I propose first the creation of a stub template {{AncientGreece-geo-stub}} and afterwards, when there are at least 60 stubs, create a new Category:Ancient Greece former populated places stubs. Regards, --Fadesga (talk) 20:01, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

AfD of possible interest

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pavlos Kouroupis. Interested editors are invited to join the discussion. -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:02, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

A new newsletter directory is out!

A new Newsletter directory has been created to replace the old, out-of-date one. If your WikiProject and its taskforces have newsletters (even inactive ones), or if you know of a missing newsletter (including from sister projects like WikiSpecies), please include it in the directory! The template can be a bit tricky, so if you need help, just post the newsletter on the template's talk page and someone will add it for you.

– Sent on behalf of Headbomb. 03:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Discussion regarding transliteration of Greek

The discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2019 May 4#Eyphrosine Kastamonitissa would benefit from input from those familiar with transliteration of Greek. Thryduulf (talk) 15:57, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

2019 Greek local elections

Can someone please create a page on the 2019 Greek local elections? They occurred yesterday. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:84:4600:77b2:79b0:3e57:15a:8f33 (talk) 19:41, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

You are invited to boldly create yourself an article at 2019 Greek local elections. 3 languages have already created an equivalent article, where you may find content: el:Ελληνικές αυτοδιοικητικές εκλογές 2019, fr:Élections locales grecques de 2019 and bg:Местни избори в Гърция (2019). Place Clichy (talk) 13:16, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Category:Public universities in Greece has been nominated for discussion

Category:Public universities in Greece, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Place Clichy (talk) 13:16, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

French rule in the Ionian Islands

Members of this project are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 May 23#Category:French rule in the Ionian Islands. – Fayenatic London 18:47, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi

Dear fellow members of this wikiproject, As i am a Greek, i joined your wikiproject! I want generally help with creating new articles. As i am a new user, i will do in the start easy things, until i gain experience. I am also a member of wikiproject automobiles and classical music. Best regards, Enivak (talk) 12:17, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

You're welcome. Be bold!--Lamassus (talk) 17:03, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks!Enivak (talk) 20:30, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Agios Vasileios, Achaea

This is the first time I have contacted Wikipedia community on anything. I don't know the editing process or the rules so I am reaching out here. I apologize if this is the wrong venue. If so, feel free to delete.

My mother and father were both born and raised in Agios Vasileios, Achaea, Greece. The Agios Vasileios page in English has very limited information. It's good information and current, but it's missing much of the history of that village.

See link below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agios_Vasileios,_Achaea

However, if you view the Greek version of the Agios Vasileios page, it is rich with history. Most important is the history of how the village was founded and how Greeks from Gounariankia settled that region. It also includes history of how the local village church, Agia Kyriaki was founded from the original icon of Agia Kyriaki from Gounarianika.

What is the process of transferring the information from the Greek site, translating it, and publishing it on the English site? Greek site is below:

https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%86%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%92%CE%B1%CF%83%CE%AF%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%91%CF%87%CE%B1%CE%90%CE%B1%CF%82

This is the translation using Google. It's a pretty accurate translation:

Saint Basil of Achaia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Agios Vasilios is a village on the north coast of the Peloponnese and is a settlement and municipality of the former municipality of Rio. In fact, it is the second largest municipality in the municipality in question. According to the 2011 census it had 2,662 inhabitants [1]. It is a seaside tourist resort and a place of holiday and permanent residence for many Patrons. There is also a kindergarten in the village, and the football team of "Saint Basil's Thunder" is active sports [2].

Historical data

The beach of Agios Vasilios

In antiquity on its eastern side (Hadjika-Green Harbor area) was built the city of Panormos as reported by Pausanias in "Achaic". In addition, ancient Panormos, according to Pausanias, is geographically situated between Cape Rio and Cape Drepano, approximately 10 steps apart (ancient measuring unit corresponding to approximately 192 meters) [3].

Ancient Panormos appears on maps of colonies of ancient Greece in southern Italy (Magna Greccia - Paestum). Today's Palermo in Sicily translates as Panormos. Panormos is subsequently mapped on the Map of Riga Feraion. Also in the battle of Nafpaktos on October 17, 1571 with the Ottomans, on the occasion of the control of the Rio - Antirio straits, Panormos is mentioned as the defenseless port where the Allied forces repaired their ships from the damage they had suffered.

The first known naval battle in the Gulf of Patras (Caledonian Gulf) was recorded by Thucydides and reportedly took place in the third year of the Peloponnesian War, namely in 429 BC. In this battle, which took place between Panormos and Nafpaktos, the Peloponnesian fleet, which was concentrated in the natural harbor of Panormos, the present-day "Tekes" area consisting of ships from Sparta and the Corinthian colonies, was attacked. ships of the Athenian Alliance with the victory of the Athenian Alliance fleet.

Its first inhabitants came from the Gounarianika (one of the settlements in the area of Noonakrida). The inhabitants descended and settled in the greater Rio area in the second half of the 19th century. They transferred from Iconoclasm the image of St. Sunday and built the church of St. Basil from which the name of the village was originally called Gounarianika. The founder of the village is named after Dr. Phaedonas Diamantopoulos, whose name is named after the main square where the present office is located. From the narratives of the old inhabitants, the aforementioned had a kinship (groom) with Alexis Soliotis, captain of the 1821 revolution operating in the area of Clukines, as the wider area of Noonakrid was then called [4].

Toponyms

Today's "Green Harbor", also called "Dekkes", is named after an old Ottoman retreat (monastery) in the area. Other names of the area are: "Golemia", "Saliani", "Tragani", "Paliolaka", "Voros", "Kefala", "Alexis", "Peristera", "Sertoula" , "Perivolakia" and "Muskoura". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dfilias (talk • contribs) 20:53, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Hello Dfilias, you can find general information about how to edit Wikipedia articles in this Wikipedia:Tutorial/Editing. For your specific question see Wikipedia:Translation. It's important that you check the text you publish yourself, especially if you start from a machine translation, and provide references if you can (see Wikipedia:Tutorial/Citing sources) because Greek Wikipedia does not qualify as a reliable source. You can always ask someone (here, for instance) to proofread the text you want to add. Markussep ^Talk 07:39, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Category:Articles needing translation from Greek Wikipedia lists a number of pages that may be expanded with text translated from the corresponding article in Greek. I have now added the article you mentioned. Radiphus (talk) 09:49, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Orithyia

Two WP:CUTPASTE moves have made a mess of the articles Orithyia, Orithyia (mythology) (two roughly identical set indices), and Orithyia of Athens. Someone knowledgeable about the subject(s) might be best suited to resolve any attribution issues, determine which of the duplicates should redirect to the other, etc. I can't work out what needs to be done. – Arms & Hearts (talk) 17:10, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Portal:Byzantine Empire

Proposal to delete all portals. The discussion is at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Proposal to delete Portal space. Voceditenore (talk) 09:08, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Otto of Greece GAR

A Good Article Reassessment proposal has been started at Otto of Greece, an article within this project's scope. All interested editors are invited to participate. Constantine ✍ 17:20, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Request for information on WP1.0 web tool

Hello and greetings from the maintainers of the WP 1.0 Bot! As you may or may not know, we are currently involved in an overhaul of the bot, in order to make it more modern and maintainable. As part of this process, we will be rewriting the web tool that is part of the project. You might have noticed this tool if you click through the links on the project assessment summary tables.

We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you? We have collected all of these questions at this Google form where you can leave your response. Walkerma (talk) 04:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Kate Marie Byrnes up for Deletion

• Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
• Kate Marie Byrnes (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs|google) AfD discussion

U.S. Ambassador to Macedonia. Career diplomat. Question of sources and citations. WP:BEFORE. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 14:12, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Papantoniou

What does the prefix pap mean as it relates to Papantoniou?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:05, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

I found it at Greek_name#Common_prefixes.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:09, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Etymology of chorisepala

I have posted a question in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Linguistics regarding the etymology of the botanical epithet chorisepala. I would like to have some input from members familiar with ancient Greek. Thanks in advance. Wimpus (talk) 09:50, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Byzantine–Ottoman wars

Byzantine–Ottoman wars, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. AIRcorn (talk) 03:27, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

New bot to remove completed infobox requests

Hello! I have recently created a bot to remove completed infobox requests and am sending this message to WikiProject Greece since the project currently has a backlogged infobox request category. Details about the task can be found at Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/PearBOT 2, but in short it removes all infobox requests from articles with an infobox, once a week. To sign up, reply with {{ping|Trialpears}} and tell me if any special considerations are required for the Wikiproject. For example: if only a specific infobox should be detected, such as {{infobox journal}} for WikiProject Academic Journals; or if an irregularly named infobox such as {{starbox begin}} should be detected. Feel free to ask if you have any questions!

Sent on behalf of Trialpears (talk) via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:34, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Quantitative scansion

I've started a discussion about Wikipedia guidelines for quantitative scansion at Wikipedia talk:CGR#Scansion. Join in if you like. Cheers. Phil wink (talk) 15:54, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Poorly written article

Could somebody please rewrite Argon Pedion so that it conforms to Wikipedia's quality standards? ωικιωαrrιorᑫᑫ1ᑫ 14:04, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Pkannetwork

Pkannetwork Pkannetwork (talk) 23:03, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Your feedback would be appreciated at Greek language

Your feedback would be appreciated at this discussion at Talk:Greek language concerning the region in which Greek is spoken. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 20:47, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Ethnos archive

Hello. Is there an online archive for Ethnos (or does anyone have another way of accessing it)? On 2/12/1960 they published the full results of the Cypriot election that year (which is visble here). If anyone is able to access it in higher quality, that would be really helpful. Cheers, Number 57 18:58, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

Deletion discussion for Macedonian Thrace Brewery

There is an ongoing deletion discussion at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Macedonian_Thrace_Brewery. It appears there is a corresponding page on the Greek language wikipedia. I would appreciate it if a Greek speaker could confirm that there are no Greek language sources that give the subject notability (i.e. significant coverage in a reliable, published, secondary source that is independent of the subject). And if so, someone on the Greek language wikipedia might want to nominate the page for deletion: [29]. Ikjbagl (talk) 00:01, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Elena Paparizou (to Helena Paparizou) which may need your attention. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. Place Clichy (talk) 22:43, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Assistance request

Would someone familiar with Greece/Greek please visit Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Single-source_stubs-Wrong_title and provide an opinion. Thanks in advance! Usedtobecool ☎️ 11:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Category:Demographics of the Western Balkans has been nominated for discussion

Category:Demographics of the Western Balkans has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Place Clichy (talk) 14:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Reorganize Wikipedia:WikiProject Ottoman Empire as a task force of Wikipedia:WikiProject Former countries?

Dear users of this WikiProject:

At Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Former_countries#Make_WikiProject_Ottoman_Empire_a_task_force_of_Wikipedia:WikiProject_Former_countries? I have left a proposal to convert Wikipedia:WikiProject Ottoman Empire into a task force of Wikipedia:WikiProject Former countries. I asked this project (as all or portions of this country was/were a part of the empire) and several other projects to get further feedback. Please let me know if you have questions, comments, or objections.

Thanks! WhisperToMe (talk) 01:53, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Greek-speaking editor needed

If somebody could take a few minutes to assess whether Greek-language sources for this article currently at AfD amount to WP:SIGCOV or whether they are just routine gossip coverage, that would be appreciated. Thanks, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:40, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Vitalis Pasha

I translated the article about Vitalis Pasha from the French Wikipedia, as it was in "open tasks". It however has no inline sources. Does anybody, maybe the person who added it, know how this can be fixed? Because I don't have access to the sources listed and can't find much more information about him online. --Antondimak (talk) 15:47, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Very good translation. I don't know about the French article's sources, the way they are given they don't really help much. There's a handful of 19th-century sources in GBooks, though. --Constantine ✍ 21:37, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Most of these seemed to refer to events not mentioned in the article, but some of them could be useful (even if they confirm information in the article just by mentioning it in passing). --Antondimak (talk) 06:08, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

RfC invitation

Hello, everybody. There's an ongoing RfC at Talk:Molossians#RfC about inclusion in the lead of mention about the historical origins of this group in which members of this wikiproject could contribute and provide new perspectives. Khirurg (talk) 03:17, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Cyclops

There is a stamp of yours stamped onto Cyclops (play) avowing your midlevel interest. Therefore somebody might be interested to know that I have given the article a kickstart, and now relinquish it with the keys. Untitled50reg (talk) 23:53, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

FAR for Istanbul

I have nominated Istanbul for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. (t · c) buidhe 04:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

RFC on whether Ottoman capital city should be referred to as "Constantinople" or "Istanbul"

Please see this request for comment on whether Ottoman capital city should be referred to as "Constantinople" or "Istanbul": Talk:History_of_Istanbul#Should_the_name_"Istanbul"_be_used_for_the_Ottoman_city_instead_of_"Constantinople"? This is relevant to the project due to the historic Greek population in the empire. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:07, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

Discussion about the Byzantine flag

A discussion is currently taking place on WCommons at Category talk:Flags of the Palaiologos dynasty to try to find what was the flag of the Byzantine empire in the 14th-15th century. Feel free to join to help! Veverve (talk) 05:14, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Attempted deletion of most Greek biographical categories

There has recently been an incident. Within a lot of noise (references of an old fight I had with a bot to fix some bugged categories, misunderstanding of Greek geography, etc.), there is basically a discussion to delete most biographical categories for people from Greece by location, and only keep those on the level of the periphereia (meaning just 13 categories, and category tree of height 1). As far as I'm aware, nothing similar has been done in Wikipedia for any other country. There is one valid underlying argument about the lowest-level categories being too small, but they are constantly growing as new articles are created, thereby not falling under WP:SMALLCAT, and going up just one level, to that of the Kallikratikoi demoi, removes this issue. Anyway, there is a lot of confusion, with the nominator just having said that "Greek co-authors and collaborators" (meaning outside of Wikipedia, as I understand) told him to merge up to the periphereies, and an inability to communicate, and I think Wikipedians here, who are more familiar with the country, could help, if they have time, so the rest don't have to rely on a single Greek person and outside commenters. --Antondimak (talk) 17:31, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Note Only get involved if you're ready to fix a mess, and confront at least one user who probably has an ulterior motive (which I still can't get my head around). You will be on your own, my mental health can't take any more of this. --Antondimak (talk) 12:46, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

FAR notice

I have nominated Thrasybulus for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm _Bacon 03:13, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Was the military junta Fascist?

So recently there was a dispute between me and another IP over whether the military junta was Fascist or not:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Greek_junta#Ideology_of_the_regime

I would like to see WikiProject Greece get involved in this dispute, since I believe it is in a much better position to solve it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.122.83.241 (talk) 17:57, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Is this project still active?

If so, then check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mystra_(Forgotten_Realms)#Requested_move_February_26_2021 In ictu oculi (talk) 13:27, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Greek mythology Featured article review

I have nominated Greek mythology for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:50, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

FAR for Slavery in ancient Greece

I have nominated Slavery in ancient Greece for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. (t · c) buidhe 18:16, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

FAR notice

I have nominated War against Nabis for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm _Talk 00:36, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

FAR for Rhodes blood libel

I have nominated Rhodes blood libel for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. (t · c) buidhe 12:09, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Requested move

I have requested at Talk:Tmolus#Requested move 28 March 2021 that several pages be moved and renamed. Comments and suggestions are very welcome at that discussion. Cnilep (talk) 03:09, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Women in Red Europe contest

After successfully completing our Asia and Africa contests over the past six months, we now welcome contributions to our Women in Europe contest which runs for three separate months from April to June 2021. To qualify for the contest, articles have to contain at least 160 words or 1,000 characters of running text and participants need to be members of Women in Red. We look forward to lots of new biographies of women from Greece.--Ipigott (talk) 06:40, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

FAR notice

I have nominated Sviatoslav I for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm _Talk 23:42, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Proposed move at "Icon"

Please comment there. Johnbod (talk) 01:13, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

FAR notice

I have nominated Theramenes for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm _Talk 01:46, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

Highest railway in Greece?

If you know the answer, make sure to add it to relevant wiki pages, especially to List of highest railways by country. Thanks! Zach (Talk) 21:19, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Old news search

Is there a website similar to newspapers.com where one can lookup old news articles from Greece? Alvaldi (talk) 11:19, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

The parliament keeps a record. There is also this and this. --Antondimak (talk) 14:28, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Ryanair Flight 4978

Ryanair Flight 4978 is in the news. As the flight originated in Athens, it is probably getting a lot of coverage in the Greek press. Editors able to read Greek may be able to improve the article from those sources. Mjroots (talk) 06:28, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Ioannis Alevras needs references

This article on a President of Greece had no references until I just added an obit. It could use some help.4meter4 (talk) 01:42, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Anastasios Balkos needs sources

This biography is unsourced. An editor who can read Greek is needed to source the article. Best.4meter4 (talk) 01:50, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Are these maps authentic?

Hello, I would like to get some opinions regarding the three maps below. Tjellis1940 uploaded some seemingly bogus images of Kardaritsi (see Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2021 July 25# and C:Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by Tjellis1940 for reference). However, I am not familiar with Greece's geography to determine if these maps are legitimate. The right side of these images seems right as they are based on File:Peloponnesos Map.png, but I have no clue on the left side.

• 
• 
• 

I would greatly appreciate any knowledge that can be bestowed upon this clueless contributor. ✗plicit 10:49, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

The maps are more or less accurate, but very ugly, and the placenames are not consistent with what is used in English Wikipedia (Pirgos, Egio). The blue dot in the Peloponnese map seems a bit too far to the west and north for Kardaritsi. I wouldn't use these maps in the Kardaritsi article. Markussep ^Talk 18:27, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Russian corvette lost at Piraeus in 1876

Further information: WT:MILHIST § Russian corvette lost in 1876

Can anyone help with the identity of a Russian corvette lost at Piraeus in 1876. Replies at MILHIST please. Mjroots (talk) 06:40, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Notice of Featured Article Review

I have nominated Roman–Persian Wars for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:38, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Alcibiades FAR

I have nominated Alcibiades for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Bumbubookworm (talk) 19:31, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

FAR notice

I have nominated Execution by elephant for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm _Talk 05:11, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Ivan Alexander of Bulgaria FAR

I have nominated Ivan Alexander of Bulgaria for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Bumbubookworm (talk) 17:02, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Proper for "W"

In Africa–India relations, the note for the image says.

Coins of king Endybis, 227–235 AD. +. The left one reads in Greek "AΧWMITW BACIΛEYC", "King of Axum". The right one reads in Greek: ΕΝΔΥΒΙC ΒΑCΙΛΕΥC, "King Endybis".

I'd like to put the greek words into greek. I know that the "C" should actually be a Lunate Sigma. But what should the W be. I presume it is an alternate form of Omega, but I can't find that anywhere to copy it in.Naraht (talk) 22:33, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

RfC that concerns this topic

There is an RfC there that concerns this topic. Every opinion or other input is welcome. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:53, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

FAR notice

I have nominated Corinthian War for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm _Talk 05:16, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

RfC on protothema

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: Reliability of protothema

Participants in this project are the most likely to be able to evalauate that source, and sources about that source, due to the language barrier.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:19, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

What flag is this?

@Κοματσουλάκης, Ktsquare, Grk1011, and Gug01: hello! As I noted at c:Category_talk:Flags_of_the_Palaiologos_dynasty#About_the_Bs :

Also, it appears the Church of Greece uses a design of the flag with stylised, rounded Bs, smaller white letters on the edges, and an eagle with the cross and Bs design at the center, at the outside of the residence of archbishop Ieronymos (here the building is identified as the "Orthodox Archbishopric in Athens").

See the images here, here ("Police subdue priest who shouted 'heretic' at Pope", Associated Press), here, here (direct link), here (direct link). I cannot seem to find shot of the flag where the whole flag can be seen.

Does anyone know what the name of this flag is or have an image where this flag is fully visible? The only thing close to it I could find is c:File:Konstantinos XI Palaiologos.svg which is likely going to be deleted as it is not a historical or used flag. Veverve (talk) 08:15, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

FAR for Demosthenes

I have nominated Demosthenes for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. (t · c) buidhe 04:23, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Hormizd VI#Requested move 4 December 2021

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Hormizd VI#Requested move 4 December 2021 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 16:19, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Greek radio and television stations

New User:Trapezanidis 1453 has been creating a number of these, probably translating from Greek Wikipedia. It might be useful for someone from this project to assist him with infoboxes, cats, notability for broadcasters and English. I have left a note on his talk page suggesting the same. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:35, 22 February 2015 (UTC).— Preceding undated comment added 17:35, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Peisistratos#Requested move 24 December 2021

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Peisistratos#Requested move 24 December 2021 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Favonian (talk) 20:28, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Epaminondas Featured article review

User:Hog Farm has nominated Epaminondas for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:07, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Need help from someone who can search in Greek

I've created Koutoukian, which looks to me like very much a notable topic, but it's difficult to find sources as we have a transliteration issue. Can anyone help? valereee (talk) 19:22, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Please help me

Greetings,

Hi, I am User:Bookku, my expectations to get expanded Black sea related articles failed miserably. I am expecting and requesting at least some help in expanding the article Draft:List of erstwhile slave trading townships with regions surrounding Black sea and Ottoman time slave trading townships. In next steps I wish to have a proper map showing erstwhile slave trading townships across .

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 10:12, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

KAT Hospital

The article KAT Hospital has been proposed for deletion: see the deletion discussion here. Can anyone here help with finding reliable sources for this article? -- The Anome (talk) 08:21, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

FA Review: Hippocrates

I have nominated Hippocrates for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:28, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

FAR for Pericles

I have nominated Pericles for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. (t · c) buidhe 04:43, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguation for Kainourgio

The current page shows up as an info-panel on Google Maps for the Kainourgio that lies some 180 km north of Athens! A disambiguation page is required! 90.131.44.10 (talk) 11:02, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing that, I made a hatnote with link to Kamena Vourla, the municipality the village Kainourgio is part of. Markussep ^Talk 11:57, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

How to spell the name of Kyiv in the article Odessa

Hi. Please help resolve a dispute at Talk:Odessa#Use the spelling Kyiv because this is not a historical article. —Michael Z. 00:17, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

FAR for Cleomenean War

I have nominated Cleomenean War for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Z1720 (talk) 13:13, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

FAR for Cretan War

I have nominated Cretan War (205–200 BC) for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. (t · c) buidhe 03:39, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources

Main page: User:Headbomb/unreliable

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

FAR notice

I have nominated Maximus the Confessor for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 06:28, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Battle of Lalakaon FAC

The article on the Battle of Lalakaon has been nominated for featured article. All interested Wikipedians are invited to participate. Constantine ✍ 21:35, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Balkan Latinity WikiProject

Hello, I've been thinking for a while of an idea for a new and certainly needed WikiProject. The Aromanians/Vlachs, Megleno-Romanians/Meglenites and Istro-Romanians/Ćiribirci are poorly known peoples in the Balkans, the only ones that are Romance-speaking apart of the Romanians. Tagging pages related to these with WikiProject templates can turn problematic, see this talk page for example [30], saturated with 7 different templates. I was thus thinking that giving them their own WikiProject could increase organization on Wikipedia about info on these peoples and increase their representation in the project, perhaps even attracting members of these groups into working at Wikipedia. The project could be split into three task forces for each of the three.

If you're interested, please ping me here or message me on my talk page. Expressing your interest in the existence of such a project is enough, you will not be compromised or pressured into working in a topic area you might lose interest to soon. After (if) I recruit enough support, I will start a formal proposal and ping you there. Regards, Super Ψ Dro 20:52, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Eastern traditions of Greece

I've recently created Category:Easter traditions in Greece but it's being considered for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2022_April_24#Category:Easter_traditions_by_country. I think it has scope for expansion. Comments appreciated (at the CfD thread, they won't be noticed here). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:32, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Requesting some article expansion help

Greetings,

Hi, I am User:Bookku, I find information and knowledge gaps create Drafts, try to recruit draft expanding editors and promote drafts articles for further expansion.

Requesting your visit to following drafts and help expand the same if any of these interests you.

• Draft:Intellectual discourse over re-mosqueing of Hagia Sophia

• Draft:Irrational beliefs

• Draft:Superstitions in Christian societies

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 11:19, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

GAR for Battle of Lechaeum

Battle of Lechaeum has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Hog Farm _Talk 18:26, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

issue about a page

this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_education_among_Illyrians that was previously called Illyrian Education after my change presents just ancient greek scholarship and nothing Illyrian as their language is not even codified, article full of original research articles and the utter use of a single albanian source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Admn19190123 (talk • contribs) 02:26, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

GA reassessment for First Macedonian War

First Macedonian War has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Hog Farm _Talk 15:11, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Interconnector Turkey–Greece–Italy#Requested move 2 September 2022

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Interconnector Turkey–Greece–Italy#Requested move 2 September 2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 15:42, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Moscopole#Requested_move_9_October_2022

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Moscopole#Requested_move_9_October_2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject.Alexikoua (talk) 00:29, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

1995 Aigio earthquake peer review

Hello, I have listed the 1995 Aigio earthquake for Peer Review at Wikipedia:Peer_review/1995_Aigio_earthquake/archive1 as prep for FAC, and I would greatly appreciate it if everyone could leave some comments on what can be improved in the article. Thank you, SamBroGaming (talk) 01:32, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Reorganisation of public transport in Athens

Public transport in Athens and Athens Mass Transit System are very similar to each other. I think the former should be about the transport system at a glance, while the latter should be reframed to describe the Transport for Athens (trading name of the Athens Urban Transport Organization) transport tariff authority. See also the proposal to create of Attiko Metro and Urban Rail Transport S.A. (STASY) at WikiProject Greece/Open tasks. Best, --Minoa (talk) 18:51, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

References

RfC at Template:Greeks

An RfC on whether the Aromanians of Greece should be included in Template:Greeks is open here [31]. Khirurg (talk) 18:18, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Please confirm

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anagnostopoulos&diff=1017600448&oldid=911623110 There are several pages to be similarly corrected. Xx236 (talk) 07:51, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

This is not a correction. Yes, grammatically it is the genitive case, but it is in practice used as the female form of the name. Etymology does not define meaning. Antondimak (talk) 11:17, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Titles of royal family biography articles

(See this Help Desk thread for context.)

Consider the following articles, about family members of the deposed king Constantine II:

1. Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece
2. Princess Alexia of Greece and Denmark
3. Prince Nikolaos of Greece and Denmark
4. Princess Theodora of Greece and Denmark (born 1983)
5. Prince Philippos of Greece and Denmark

I wonder if all of them are really notable (obviously tabloids etc. extensively cover royal families, so there’s some sourcing, the question is its quality) but let’s assume they are.

The titles of the articles include honorifics which we generally avoid (MOS:HON), unless that is the way the person is known among reliable sources. The problem is, most sources in those articles are either from the tabloid/celebrity press or royalist-leaning sources, both of which use the honorifics for obvious reasons. (Possibly some of those are not notable because there are no quality sources but I don’t really want to touch on that; at any rate, I doubt #1 would be deleted at AfD.)

What would be alternative titles? One option is to drop the titles: Pavlos of Greece (born 1967), Alexia of Greece and Denmark, etc.

Another option at least for Pavlos: there is one source in the article that refers to him as "Παύλος Γλύξμπουργκ". We could theoretically move the article to Pavlos Glücksburg but I have no idea whether To Vima is roughly representative of the mainstream press or a raging anti-monarchist outlet.

Ideas? Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 15:41, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Honorifics aside, I think we're approaching them no longer being notable as the monarchy has been gone for decades now. Members 2-5 in your list live normal average lives. Pavlos has the title right now, but his article is all about the downfall of the democracy when he was an infant/toddler, which is background that is or can be fully covered as part of the Greek royal family article. Prince Constantine Alexios of Greece and Denmark and Prince Achileas-Andreas of Greece and Denmark are even less notable. Grk1011 (talk) 18:05, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Παύλος Γλύξμπουργκ is the preferred form used in Greek-speaking sources by a wide margin. It isn't just some anti-monarchists using it, or, if we were to label outlets using it as anti-monarchist, then we would label the vast majority of the Greek press as such.

We are however using the terms used in English-language reliable sources. Are the sources currently used considered reliable? Maybe not, but I don't think we could find any more reliable ones using "Glücksburg", so I think it's more of a case of whether there are even enough reliable sources for the articles to pass the notability criterion.

As the former heir, there seems to be enough coverage of Pavlos, but I'm not sure about the rest of the family. Antondimak (talk) 11:22, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Chronographos

Hello there, I am trying to improve the page at Chronographos but am struggling to find much about it. Can someone help me? Currently the page has had no references for many years. Thanks JMWt (talk) 19:54, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Diocletian Featured article review

I have nominated Diocletian for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:45, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Featured Article Save Award for Diocletian

There is a Featured Article Save Award nomination at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Diocletian/archive1. Please join the discussion to recognize and celebrate editors who helped assure this article would retain its featured status. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:48, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Zograf Monastery#Requested move 16 March 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Zograf Monastery#Requested move 16 March 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 14:29, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

FAR for Macedonia (terminology)

User:Buidhe has nominated Macedonia (terminology) for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 03:18, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

FAR for Macedonia (terminology)

User:Buidhe has nominated Macedonia (terminology) for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 07:37, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

FAR for Macedonia (terminology)

User:Buidhe has nominated Macedonia (terminology) for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 15:08, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Fox Life (Greek TV channel)#Requested move 23 March 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Fox Life (Greek TV channel)#Requested move 23 March 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 15:37, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 14:20, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Battle of Lade

Battle of Lade has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 22:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement!

Hello, Please note that Vandal Kingdom, which is within this project's scope, has been selected as one of the Articles for improvement. The article is scheduled to appear on Wikipedia's Community portal in the "Articles for improvement" section for one week, beginning today. Everyone is encouraged to collaborate to improve the article. Thanks, and happy editing! Delivered by — MusikBot talk 00:05, 22 May 2023 (UTC) on behalf of the AFI team

One of your project's articles has been selected for improvement!

Hello, Please note that Bible, which is within this project's scope, has been selected as one of the Articles for improvement. The article is scheduled to appear on Wikipedia's Community portal in the "Articles for improvement" section for one week, beginning today. Everyone is encouraged to collaborate to improve the article. Thanks, and happy editing! Delivered by — MusikBot talk 00:05, 5 June 2023 (UTC) on behalf of the AFI team

Names of Kos

Discussion ongoing (well, trapped in an endless circle) about whether the article on Kos should include the Turkish name of the island in the lead on account of the continued existence of a Turkish minority there, or whether this is undue. Input from the members of this WP would be helpful. Furius (talk) 16:30, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

FAR for Attalus I

I have nominated Attalus I for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Z1720 (talk) 13:16, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Move discussion

If anyone has any opinions on this Talk:Labours of Hercules#Requested move 10 July 2023, please join the discussion. Paul August ☎ 00:20, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Pushbacks in Greece#Requested move 5 July 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Pushbacks in Greece#Requested move 5 July 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 18:53, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Arab–Byzantine wars

Arab–Byzantine wars has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Onegreatjoke (talk) 16:21, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Credibility bot

As this is a highly active WikiProject, I would like to introduce you to Credibility bot. This is a bot that makes it easier to track source usage across articles through automated reports and alerts. We piloted this approach at Wikipedia:Vaccine safety and we want to offer it to any subject area or domain. We need your support to demonstrate demand for this toolkit. If you have a desire for this functionality, or would like to leave other feedback, please endorse the tool or comment at WP:CREDBOT. Thanks! Harej (talk) 17:46, 5 August 2023 (UTC)