User talk:Place Clichy

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Hello, Place Clichy. You have new messages at WP:REFUND.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Yuri

Okay, I have restored the redirect, but I see no links to it. Deb (talk) 11:51, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, it was showing up as a new article, hence the move seems to have been from a recently-created article. Deb (talk) 11:53, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Template:1911

Sorry I've been busy on other things. I have yet to write up the documentation on the changes I have made. I'll do that sometime over the next 24 hours.

The original two unnamed parameters will still work in much the way as they did before, but I am going to leave them undocumented (and depreciate their use) as it will be better to use named parameters as they are more flexible. I have put in enough documentation to cover anyone who needs to add a new template until such time as I write up the documentation.

So I hope it will satisfy you for the moment. -- PBS (talk) 13:42, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

FYI

{{1911|London}}	This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911). Encyclopædia Britannica (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)
{{1911|article=London}}	This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911). "London". Encyclopædia Britannica (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press.
{{1911|wikisource=London}}	This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911). Encyclopædia Britannica (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Missing or empty |title= (help); Unknown parameter |wikisource= ignored (help)
{{1911|wikisource=London|inline=1}}	One or more of the preceding sentences incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911). Encyclopædia Britannica (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Missing or empty |title= (help); Unknown parameter |wikisource= ignored (help)
{{1911|article=London|inline=1}}	One or more of the preceding sentences incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911). "London". Encyclopædia Britannica (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press.
{{1911|article=London|no-prescript=1}}	Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911). "London". Encyclopædia Britannica (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press.

--PBS (talk) 13:54, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Nome (country subdivision)

Hi, now that Nome (country subdivision) points to a disambig, could you help out fixing links per WP:FIXDABLINKS? I've found navigation popups to be very useful when you set the popupFixDabs flag to true. --JaGa^talk 19:50, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Jean-Michel Thierry

The article Jean-Michel Thierry has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

I cannot find any sources that directly address this author (only the book he co-wrote). I find this subject of this article to not meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines.

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You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. The speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. LonelyBeacon (talk) 02:54, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Anastasius (Samaria)

Of the recently added categories in Anastasius (Samaria), "clergy" strikes me as odd. He doesn't seem to have ever been a priest. Am I missing something? Dimadick (talk) 09:55, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Ships built in versus Ships built at

I reverted your action on the ship that was built in Poland. The reason is, that I try to use two different systems: "Built in" and "Built at". For the schips by name you can find the country of building, the category by IMO number shows the shipyard. Combining will be double and there are a number of too strict rule-followers who will throw away one of the categories. I hope this way of working will survive. Experts work by IMO numbers and are interested in the yards. The gerenal publc is not very interested in the yards, only the country where a ship was built. --Stunteltje (talk) 17:50, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Category:Roman Catholic church buildings

This is not as duplicate of Category:Roman Catholic churches. Churches is ambiguous and since it applies to both buildings and congregations and denominations. Also, it is against guidelines to empty categories. If you want to move or rename a category you must use WP:CFD. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:23, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

The use of church buildings was decided by consensus several months ago. Due to the way categories work, it is more important that the names be unambiguous. If anything should be eliminated, we should probably explore eliminating Category:xxx churches since that is the ambiguous term. Of course that should be kept if it makes sense to bring all of the various uses of the term church at that name. I'm not convinced that that would be the right move. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:52, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Your invitation to participate in a Wikimedia-approved survey in online behavior.

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		For your participation in the survey for Anonymity and conformity on the internet. Michael Tsikerdekis (talk) 13:56, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

A barnstar for you

		The Modest Barnstar
		Thanks for your recent contributions! 66.87.2.142 (talk) 14:56, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

May 2012

Before adding a category to an article, please make sure that the subject of the article really belongs in the category that you specified according to Wikipedia's categorization guidelines. Categories must also be supported by the article's verifiable content. Categories may be removed if they are deemed incorrect for the subject matter. Thank you. The footballers Giannis Amanatidis and Ioannis Maniatis are not Greek MPs. There is a teacher named Giannis Amanatidis and an engineer named Giannis Maniatis who were elected MPs, I assume you meant to add them. – Kosm1fent 15:52, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for noticing that! It is far from uncommon to have sportspeople joining politics, so I was not surprised to see footballers in the list. If you are familiar with Greece, have a look at the list of members of the Hellenic Parliament, May–June 2012, that I just compiled, to see if some blue links (or red links) have to be corrected. Place Clichy (talk) 16:19, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

I've red-linked the two MPs I've mentioned above and added an external link to the Parliament's website. The problem is, however, that most Greek MPs don't have articles; such a shame, considering that all of them would pass WP:POLITICIAN. Cheers. – Kosm1fent 16:38, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

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Infobox London station

Thanks for sorting that out. I was wondering what happened and couldn't work it out. Simply south...... eating shoes for just 7 years 22:42, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

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Orthodox map

I made the changes you suggested. I think I originally did mean to color in Kosovo, but forgot because of how much effort the other changes took. SpencerCS (talk) 00:27, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

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Infobox officeholder

I revived your question Template talk:Infobox officeholder#Question for ministerial positions/cabinet members. — Petr Matas 06:13, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Overcategorisation Mont Cenis Pass Railway

Please see Category:19th-century disestablishments in France

These generic category structures are almost empty. As there are already

• Railway lines opened in 1868,
• Railway lines closed in 1871,
• Railway companies established in 1866 and
• Railway companies disestablished in 1871...

...I think this is a clear case of overcategorisation.--Aaron-Tripel (talk) 13:32, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, Establishments by country and Disestablishments by country hierarchies do exist and have a great number of pages in it, so it would be a bit far-fetched to suggest that the community's consensus goes against adding such categories to articles. For instance 1868 establishments in England alone has 27 pages in it. However, I will not add these particular cats back into the article following your edit. Place Clichy (talk) 14:34, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

(Moved answer back to where it belongs)

Moving one category level up from your example clearly indicates that this hierarchy isn't substantially populated at all (Category:1868 establishments by country). The single fact that a category hierarchy exist doesn't mean there is a consensus to randomly filling it as this hierarchy could potentially be filled with thousands of articles, rendering it useless.

With random I mean the example I gave earlier, between all the red links of Category:19th-century disestablishments in France only Category:1871 disestablishments in France and a few others are populated.

The following discussion indicates that there is no consensus or policy at all about this hierarchy: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Categories/Archive 3#RfC on "Years by country" categories--Aaron-Tripel (talk) 15:35, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

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Greek!

Hiya! I noticed that you have both Greek and German infoboxes on your profile. User:Vl.eu came onto the undeletion request forum requesting help with the article for Vicky Leandros. I left them some general information and recommended that they find a person who speaks their native language, since they have stated that their English isn't as strong as it could be. I'd like to say that they speak Greek or German since they listed the Greek and German websites for Leandros, although I'm somewhat suspecting that they're a Greek speaker. Nothing to back that up, though. In any case, would you be willing to try to converse with them in Greek and/or German to see if that's what they speak? I think that they mean well, but they would likely need to have things explained in their native language. I've tagged them with this post in the hopes that they'll come here, but you may need to go to their page. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:37, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

@Tokyogirl79:Thank you for notifying me. Although I have some knowledge of Greek, my writing skills in the language are quite poor. I suggest asking @Dr.K.: or @Cplakidas: who are respected and helpful users from Greece. As for German, the subject has been discussed many times at de:Diskussion:Vicky Leandros, I suggest letting a message there. Place Clichy (talk) 18:10, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks! By the by, it looks like their native language is German. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 07:19, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

de:Korfu (Begriffsklärung)

Hey, PC, just to inform you: we wouldn't translate the name of a ship in German WP, so I changed it according to our conventions. The best. -- Pitichinaccio (talk) 17:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Giorgos Foundas

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Duplicate categorization of Eastern Orthodox believers

Hey Place Clichy, you mentioned it's unnecessary to categorize Eastern Orthodox believers both by nationality and by jurisdiction: just by nationality should be enough. In fact I completely agree with you but it's a bit complex to realize. Just deleting the categories by jurisdiction is not an option because numerous of these articles are only in the jurisdiction category and not yet in the nationality category. So ideally we'd merge the categories by jurisdiction to the categories by nationality. But then the next problem is they do not always match. This is especially problematic for the Russian and Serbian jurisdiction after the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia fell apart. If you have an idea how to solve this, please go ahead. Marcocapelle (talk) 08:13, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

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Chrisianity in the middle east

Frankly, in this instance, yes. Just dropping out of the blue "christian palestinians face the same terrible oppression as their muslim brothers" is totally biased and out of place. This sentence is not only written as out of a propaganda piece, it's dropped as a complete non sequester and its 'source' is an opinion section of Al-jazeera.... seriously?

it's also quite ironic that the sentence was shoehorned in between statements about all the genocides, massacres and legal discrimination christians face in literally every other country in the middle east other than israel, perhaps the reason why the completely vague phrase "oppression" had to be used since the real details would have been too stark a contrast with the grim reality of neighbouring countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:E348:5180:5871:5D04:FC53:EA08 (talk) 09:48, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Chrisianity in the middle east 2

Also, considering any 'oppression' palestinians may face from Israel is totally national in nature, it has nothing to do with the article at all.

You might as well had "Saudi/Egyptian/yemeni/syrian/iraqi/lebanese/libyan/qatari/etc christians face the same government oppression as their muslim brothers". I mean that oppression is often a lot more severe than anything you'll see in palestine, and it's as valid a statement.

Are you starting to see how colossally stupid that sentence is in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:908:E348:5180:5871:5D04:FC53:EA08 (talk) 09:53, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Not all in Greece

Hey Place Clichy, which Greek city-states weren't in Greece? Marcocapelle (talk) 19:19, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Revert category change

You're welcome to participate in this discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:17, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Former Turkish Province Of Yunanistan listed at Redirects for discussion

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Non-Inscrits

It is not a good idea to add former Members in the normal Non-Inscrits table. Make for former members a different table if you want :)83.80.208.22 (talk) 10:24, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Janice Atkinson

Source added. She was sacked by UKIP, as such an Independent MEP. RoverTheBendInSussex (talk) 15:17, 16 June 2015 (GMT)

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MOS:IDENTITY is being revisited: How should Wikipedia refer to transgender individuals before and after their transition?

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Thoughts on the French-American Foundation article

Dear Place Clichy, You were correct to note that the claim of significance is present in the article. I see now that the bar is much lower than for Wikipedia:Notability, which I feel that neither it nor its French counterpart achieves at this point, absent significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. I tried, unsuccessfully, to remedy this problem by searching for anything written about the foundation in English from a reliable second or third-party source. (The French article cites a Parti de gauche website as its sole citation—probably not a reliable source and certainly not an indication of "significant coverage".) This led me to infer its non-notability. I'll look for your thoughts, here. Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 01:52, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Re Oriental Orthodox categories

Re Oriental Orthodox categories, the Wiki help (Interwiki links) doesen't seem to cover these interwiki links for categories, and non-European language wikis would be even more difficult. Hugo999 (talk) 12:47, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!

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why don't you just create an article for one of the politicians?

You've added the hatnote twice with several months in between. Doesn't seem like anyone is biting. Why not create at least a stub yourself? Also, no need to DAB if no one even has energy to create the articles. There is only one subject by that name. Rikster2 (talk) 19:34, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Also, per WP:HATNOTE#Non-existent articles: "Hatnotes should not contain red links to non-existent articles since hatnotes are intended to help users navigate to another article they may have intended to find. The exception is if one intends to create the linked article immediately. In that case, consider creating the new article first, before saving the addition of the hatnote." Rikster2 (talk) 19:38, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

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Akadimia, Athens

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Speedy deletion nomination of Georgios Marinos

A tag has been placed on Georgios Marinos requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G6 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is an orphaned disambiguation page which either

• disambiguates two or fewer extant Wikipedia pages and whose title ends in "(disambiguation)" (i.e., there is a primary topic); or
• disambiguates no (zero) extant Wikipedia pages, regardless of its title.

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such pages may be deleted at any time. Please see the disambiguation page guidelines for more information.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. ubiquity (talk) 16:02, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

N Deleted. It doesn't matter that it linked to extant articles on other wikis because disambiguation pages should not contain that type of interlanguage link anyway. larryv (talk) 21:05, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

commons issue

Hi. I'm from commons and i due all stuffs about Macedonia there. Can u tell me please why u remove the category Churches in the Republic of Macedonia from all macedonian churches?--R ašo 12:48, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

@Raso mk: Hello! In general, when an element is placed in a subcategory, it does not need to be placed in redundant mother categories. This is explained at commons:COM:OVERCAT, for instance. As an example, if a category or image is in Category:Churches in Skopje, it does not need to be also in Category:Churches in the Republic of Macedonia, because Category:Churches in Skopje is a subcategory of Category:Churches in the Republic of Macedonia, so that would be redundant. Place Clichy (talk) 13:40, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Category:Churches in Skopje, is not subcategory of Category:Churches in the Republic of Macedonia but Category:Churches in the Republic of Macedonia by city. I understand, but the category was to show the whole number of churches. Its possible to revert the contributins? I need the whole number. If you revert, i will create i hidden cat with another name, and then you can erase the category Churches in the Republic of Macedonia again. Thanks--R ašo 18:45, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

@Raso mk: Hello! Undoing all changes is not easy, but you can probably use a tool like CatScan to list all subcategories, or maybe Special:Categories. If you just want the number of subcategories, you can also just expand all the arrows and copy-paste the list in Excel or LibreOffice Calc to remove duplicates. What you apparently want to do (listing all churches of the Republic of Macedonia in one place) is more a List than a category actually, so categories may not be the best tool for you. Place Clichy (talk) 15:10, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

About Your Edits to the Pages Bacha Khan Poverty Alleviation Programme & Punjab Land Development Company ‎

Yeah, hi. I removed the category Pakistan federal departments and agencies from the above two pages, which you added. They are not departments or agencies of the Government of Pakistan. --113.203.149.37 (talk) 12:51, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

About Category:State corporations of Pakistan & Category:State owned enterprises of Pakistan

I see you are trying to merge them into Category:Government-owned companies of Pakistan. Why not just remove the pages from the above two category, and add them to the Government category? Then just request speedy deletion of the above two categories? Wouldn't that be quicker? --113.203.181.51 (talk) 18:41, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

École Polytechnique

I see that you restored some extremely substandard content to the encyclopaedia with this edit. In your summary you seemed confused as to why I had removed it. I did think that its total inadequacy was screamingly obvious to anyone who actually read it, but apparently not, so let me give you some reasons.

1. It's written in poor English. Note how the very first sentence has a missing definite article
2. It's formatted as a list. It should be in prose.
3. It's written mostly in the present tense. It should obviously all be in the past tense
4. It contains almost no actual encyclopaedic content. I do believe that more than three important things happened there during the 19th century.

I removed it on 4 July, but it was restored by someone for no good reason. I removed it again, and now you've put it back for no good reason. I was planning to rewrite it, but as this content is fine by you, I won't bother. You can keep the article like this and feel as proud as you like of it. 217.158.174.226 (talk) 08:14, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

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The word "sixth-form" and the French educational system

Hi! I used "sixth-form" in the French lycee templates because the city of Paris used "sixth-form" as a translation for lycee: http://www.webcitation.org/6Ab4dRjru (collège was translated as "high school" in reference to the British use of the word) - This translation is still used as of writing: http://next.paris.fr/english/guide-for-foreign-residents/the-necessary-steps-to-settling-in/children-families/rub_8145_stand_33668_port_18796

WhisperToMe (talk) 12:45, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

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Flag of Athens

Just for your information: The flag I removed was an earlier version, where the blue was far from correct, as you can see. And yes, I did take my concern to the author of the file, and they have made the current version. Actually I am not completely convinced that the new file is completely correct, either. I think the blue in the flag probably should be the same as the blue in the seal, but at least it is not conspicuously wrong now. Regards! --T*U (talk) 19:12, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

Reformed church buildings

The recent CFD discussion that I mentioned is here. So it distinguishes congregations from bricks and mortar. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:20, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

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BRD

Please do not discuss in edit summaries as is happening on Template:Western Christianity footer. The template has a talk page. Please discuss there. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:29, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Greek Catholic

Hello. I see that you recently redirected Greek Catholic and Greek Catholic Church to a disambiguation page. Please can you fix the resulting mis-directed links? There are about 730 wikilinks from mainspace, but some of those can be fixed by editing a few templates such as {{Religion in Turkey}}. As the terms listed on the dab are confusingly similar, it is difficult for the layman to help and this task really needs a subject expert such as yourself. Thanks, Certes (talk) 09:31, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

@Certes: It is indeed a work in progress. Most incoming links to Greek Catholic Church or a version thereof should be changed to a better target, precisely because the term is ambiguous. I shall correct them myself if others don't do it before me. In many cases it is not difficult to find the right target, and in any case much better than leaving a link to a wrong page having nothing to do with the topic, such as Slovak Catholic Eparchy of Saints Cyril and Methodius of Toronto linking to Byzantine Catholics, itself redirecting to Greek Byzantine Catholic Church, which is a Church in the country of Greece having nothing to do with Slovakia! The correct link there should be, for instance, Slovak Greek Catholic Church.

{{Religion in Turkey}} is full of links to redirects (which should be avoided per WP:BRINT) or generic terms having nothing to do with Turkey while easily-found equivalents are available (why link to Catholic or Latin Catholic instead of Catholic Church in Turkey?). It can no doubt be improved. The main link for Greek Catholic topics in Turkey seems to be Greek Catholic Apostolic Exarchate of Istanbul, although there is also a Melkite jurisdiction. You may be inspired by links found at Category:Religion in Turkey and subcategories, or link to the categories themselves when there is no dedicated article. Place Clichy (talk) 09:59, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

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Category:Malagasy footballers

Please do not remove players from this article, it's a non-diffusing category, so they should remain in there even if they are also in subcats. GiantSnowman 11:56, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

I've just noticed you have been removing valid categories from articles, then tagging the categories for deletion. That is incredibly bad form. Please do not do that. GiantSnowman 12:01, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Category: List of dioceses

Unfortunately this list category duplicates content that is found elsewhere. See: "List of Catholic dioceses by alphabetical or List of Catholic dioceses by Structure". Having a category for Catholic lists is fine, but that already exists. Benkenobi18 (talk) 09:31, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

@Benkenobi18: If you find duplicate categories, I suggest nominating them for merger at WP:CFD. I can't find duplicate categories with the names you suggested though, care to provide a link? Categories and lists are different things, they are not duplicates of one another. See WP:Categories vs lists. All I saw was you removing List of dioceses in... articles from categories which have the word Lists in the name, and at first sight this seems wrong. List articles should be placed somewhere in the Category:Lists structure, and Category:Lists of Roman Catholic dioceses, which you emptied, is a valid intersection. Place Clichy (talk) 09:50, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

The category had eight entries in it. Six of them were diocesan articles that were at the wrong level, which should be in the diocesan cats where I moved them. That leaves two. The one you readded and one other. I think that "Catholic-church related lists" is a better list category for those two rather than a 'list of Catholic diocese lists". also, please note that the Category, "lists of Catholic dioceses in a country" already contains the individual lists for all the catholic countries, making this category a duplicate of the content there. Benkenobi18 (talk) 09:56, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lists_of_Roman_Catholic_dioceses_by_country.

OK, you can indeed argue that you feel that Category:Lists of Roman Catholic dioceses by country is sufficient and that Category:Lists of Roman Catholic dioceses is "unneeded overcategorization". However, there are many cases when a perfectly valid category has most of its content within a by-country subcategory. Here, I see the following content eligible for the root category rather than the by-country category: List of Catholic dioceses (structured view), List of Catholic dioceses (alphabetical), List of Catholic dioceses in Europe, List of Catholic dioceses in the Balkans, Category:Lists of Roman Catholic dioceses in countries by name etc. Anyway, what is or is not overcategorization is defined by guidelines established by consensus rather than just personal opinion, and if you believe that consensus is against having a category gathering diocese lists, I invite you to nominate the category at WP:CFD rather than emptying or blanking it out of process. Please follow the discussion at the category talk page whre it will be better located. Place Clichy (talk) 11:12, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

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WP:LISTPEOPLE

Hi. This has been a guideline on our English Wikipedia for at least 10 years, and certainly since I've been an admin (8 years). Please revert yourself. Thanks. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:43, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Minor and not-so-minor edits

Hello, I'm BlackcurrantTea. I clicked on your contributions out of curiosity, and I noticed you're marking quite a few of your edits as minor, yet the ones I looked at aren't actually minor. Examples: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

It's an understandable mistake, and one I've made myself. The Wikipedia definition of minor is different to what most of us expect. I've reviewed Help:Minor edit many times, trying to decide if the changes I was making were minor. It helped me to think of a minor edit as a change that a reader is not that likely to notice (unless it's reverting obvious vandalism: this also counts as minor). Maybe it fixes a typo, or corrects the format of a reference without adding any new information. It doesn't change or add anything very noticeable to the page, and other editors are unlikely to dispute it.

I hope this helps. If you have any questions, you can reply to me here; I'll keep your talk page on my watchlist for a bit. Happy editing! BlackcurrantTea (talk) 02:49, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Hello @BlackcurrantTea. Indeed what is a minor or a major edit can be very debatable. That is most especially true in the part that other editors are unlikely to dispute it, as as editors may dispute such things as the placing of a comma, sometimes rightfully so. In many years editing Wikipedia, I don't remember being challenged for misuse of the minor tag, although I have most certainly used it where I could not have, and the other way around.

I have not reviewed all your links (I am on a mobile phone right now which does not make it easy). However looking at 1 I see that I did only some copy editing, wikifying and link correction, and did not add or remove any information. So that's definitely a minor edit imho, and one where I see little probable room for contestation in all possible good faith. I welcome the debate though. Place Clichy (talk) 09:09, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

You're right about that first diff - I was looking at the difference in wikicode, which makes it look like rather more of a change. However in the second diff you added a reference and a noticeable amount of text. In the third, you changed 'Byzantine' to 'Greek', changed section headings, added a gallery section and moved images into it, and removed half the entries from the 'see also' section. In the fourth, you changed the target of a redirect. In the fifth, you changed 'authored by' to 'attributed to' and added three references and a note.

To make up for the first diff, I'll add this navbox change; this change to a disambiguation page; and this change to an article. I don't see any of those as minor. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 12:30, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

I do not feel really ashamed of any of those edits, and their content seems pretty unlikely to be found controversial (to the extent that you can be sure in advance that no other editor will think otherwise). I hope there was no harm done. However you may be right that for some edits I had started with some pretty uncontroversial maintenance work for which I had ticked the minor box, but then went on to do bigger changes to the article which should not have been marked as minor. In 2, I see that I had started by updating a reference for figures already in the article and correcting typos etc. but then added more content esp. a (sourced and referenced) list of patriarchal vicars, which is indeed a major edit. In other cases there may be room for more discussion or interpretation as to what is minor uncontroversial maintenance, such as replacing an obviously wrong redirect target, or replacing a rarely-used or weird term by what is already considered consensual and a standard in the article's context as is the case for 'Byzantine Catholic' vs. 'Greek Catholic'. Thank you for your suggestion though. Like all of us, I'm not always right and I probably often make mistakes. I will try and be more careful in the future. Place Clichy (talk) 15:52, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting you should be ashamed of any of the edits - indeed, I appreciate your attention to detail and references - simply that they're not minor edits. Thank you for considering this, and for your thoughtful replies. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 01:49, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

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Ottoman Empire-related articles in French?

Hi, Place Clichy! I have started some articles about the Ottoman Empire in English. I'm wondering if you're interested in writing French versions of some of them, as French was the main foreign language in the late (post-Tanzimat) Ottoman Empire. Egypt and Greece also used French at the turn of the 20th Century.

Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 18:07, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

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Category:Slavophone Greeks

Hello, Place Clichy,

You tagged this category for speedy renaming and now it is empty. Can you follow through with it? I don't know the status of the rename, whether it was opposed or is now a discussion at CfD. If it won't be renamed, perhaps you could remove the tagging. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:26, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

@Liz: My unopposed speedy nomination was actually for the merger of 2 categories in favour of a 3rd one, to mirror a merge at the article level which took effect, following discussion, in 2009. In effect, merging the now-empty category without leaving a redirect or plainly deleting it made little different, as content had been moved to the new target. In the meantime, an administrator deleted the empty category while leaving a mention of the new one in the edit summary. Things are therefore all good now. Place Clichy (talk) 14:18, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Foreign military bases in Canada

A tag has been placed on Category:Foreign military bases in Canada requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:46, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

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Minor edit designations

Hello, please review WP:Minor edit. Cheers, Sdkb (talk) 08:43, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for this advice. Is there any specific edit you would be referring to or be unhappy with? I usually try to keep what is written on this page in mind in my editing, including the mention at the top that this is an information page. It describes the editing community's established practice on some aspect or aspects of Wikipedia's norms and customs. It is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community. Cheers, Place Clichy (talk) 09:09, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Yes, the one I noticed was this edit. I guess some argument could be made for all talk page contributions being minor, but it's at the least unorthodox. Sdkb (talk) 17:57, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

FYI on "Roman Catholic Church"

"Roman Catholic Church" correctly refers to the whole of the "Catholic Church" in communion with the Pope. The "Western Catholic" church is correctly called the "Latin Catholic Church", not the "Roman Catholic Church". Unfortunately even the Latin Catholic Church article makes this common mistake. Afterwriting (talk) 17:58, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

@Afterwriting: Nobody really ever says "Latin Catholic", it's just "Latin", as in the Latin Church or the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem. However, the use of Roman Catholic to refer to Roman-rite/Latin/Western Catholics as differentiated from Eastern Catholics is quite prevalent, see for instance Roman Catholic (term) § "Roman Catholic" and "Western" or "Latin Catholic". I guess it really depends from where you speak. From my experience I'd say that people who use Roman Catholic in the first sense (the wider Catholic Church) come from contexts that are either not Catholic or influenced by Protestantism, or are not even aware of the existence of the Eastern Catholic Churches, whereas people who use Roman Catholic in the second sense are more often Catholics themselves or from Catholic countries. That's personal perception, not educated opinion though. Any way both uses are correct and depend on context. IF you wish to discuss the matter more, I think that Talk:Catholic Church is the best venue. Place Clichy (talk) 18:08, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

I agree with you that "Latin Church" is more common than "Latin Catholic Church" (though this is arguably more correct). But I don't agree that both uses of "Roman Catholic Church" are strictly correct, although I realise that many people refer to only the Latin Church as being "Roman Catholic". One thing I find strange but interesting is that many Latin Catholics want to reject the term "Roman Catholic" altogether whilst many Eastern Catholics use it (mistakenly I believe) to refer to the Latin Church. This matter has been discussed considerably in the past at the Catholic Church talk page and it was generally agreed back then that "Roman Catholic" correctly referred to the whole church and not just the Western church (which is why the opening sentence is as it is). Regards, Afterwriting (talk) 18:28, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Both uses are correct in English. However you have to acknowledge that the use of "Roman Catholic" for the entire Church comes from the Church of England and was initially intended as pejorative, which may be a good explanation why you will find Catholics who show reluctance to it. Acceptance of these terms have evolved with times, and you would not put the same connotation in a 21st-century text than in a 17th-century one, both for Catholic and Roman Catholic, both from an Anglican or a Catholic writer. Place Clichy (talk) 18:35, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Ashkenazi, Mizrahi, Sephardi, etc.

I've been thinking about your comments the other day about Syrian, Turkish, and Bulgarian Jews not being Sephardi. While I don't agree that most Syrians or Turks aren't Sephardi (not sure about Bulgarians), it does raise an interesting question. I wonder if these categories need to be reconsidered. Maybe being Ashkenazi/Mizrahi/Sephardi/etc. should be delinked from nationality categories. Jews from a particular nation may be Ashkenazi, Sephardi, or something else. Category:Hungarian Jews are classified as "Ashkenazi", but anecdotally, my Hungarian-Jewish friends are mostly Sephardi. Category:Dutch Jews are categorized with both Ashkenazi and Sephardi categories. Might it be more appropriate to have subcats for, say, Category:Dutch Sephardi Jews and Category:Dutch Ashkenazi Jews? Would it be more appropriate to have the categories as Category:Dutch people of Sephardi descent, etc.? I'm just not sure how useful it is to assume that an individual Jew or group of Jews is Ashkenazi/Sephardi/etc. based upon what country they are from. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 17:41, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

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MOS:CAPS

Please stop lowercasing Christology. Elizium23 (talk) 16:07, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

@Elizium23: You are correct, it seems indeed that Christology and Christological are usually capitalized in English. Place Clichy (talk) 16:21, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

"Georgian Catholic Church" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Georgian Catholic Church. Since you had some involvement with the Georgian Catholic Church redirect, you might want to participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Wikiacc (¶) 19:31, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

American state categories

I see that you've added several American territories and the capital to "[x] by state" categories but Washington, D.C. is not a state. Please see U. S. state and let me know if you have any questions. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 10:32, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

@Koavf: I know that Washington D.C. is not a state, thank you very much. This is why I used a + sort key, so that it is not listed among the states but presented separately, together with other non-state entities. Indeed, when US categories are diffused geographically but the category is called "by state" rather than something more generic such as "by location", "by place", "by first-level subdivision", "by state or territory" etc., I believe that subcategories for Washington D.C. and other territories are still expected to be found in the geographical category rather than outside of it. In the case at hand, your (imho too quick) reverts [3] [4] [5] left Category:American activists in a very poor state, with 6 different sort keys used for out-of-sequence subcategories: , :, !, > and 2 for geography, - and +. Clearly, in terms of navigation, this cannot be considered an ideal situation. If you think that the solution to this issue is to rename every American "by state" category to "by state or territory", I would gladly support this change. Please see WP:Sorting and let me know if you have any questions. Place Clichy (talk) 14:13, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Place Clichy, Since Washington, D. C. is a city, it would be appropriate for "[x] by city" categories but not by state. I'd be happy to rename all of those but that's a big undertaking. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:26, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

And again. You're doing this now with territories. Territories and the federal district are not states. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺ M☯ 18:28, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but most states were once territories. It is completely unpractical to keep content relative to territories separate from that of states. It goes against the spirit of WP:DIFFUSE. That's why many of these categories use "by state or territory". But for those who are not, a non-alphabetical sort key is a perfect way to separate them. Place Clichy (talk) 19:11, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Don't put territories in "by state" categories and don't put Washington, D. C. in "by state" or "by state or territory" categories. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:30, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Let's not forget that categories are only tools aimed at helping navigation, above all other considerations. It certainly helps to put all content relative to states, territories and Washington D.C. in the same place. Frankly, people that care about the subject enough to notice are already aware that D.C. is not a state, and therefore will not be misled. So sorry, but I don't think that a rigid reading of what is a state or a territory and what isn't helps at all here. Place Clichy (talk) 20:55, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Disagreed. Don't put inaccuracies into categories. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:28, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

There's no inaccuracy when a non-alphabetic sort key is used (such as +), explicitly signalling that there's a difference in the membership. Plus if you want to be rigid, places like Oklahoma, Hawaii, or Alaska were territories for quite a long time before they became states, so there's already plenty of "territory" material in your precious "by state" categories. Flexibility is encouraged when editing Wikipedia when it allows to improve things, see WP:IAR and WP:5P5. If you want to leave it at that, let's agree to disagree. Place Clichy (talk) 00:51, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

As long as you don't put non-states in "x by state" categories, I'm good. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:26, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

And again. Please stop. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 15:04, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 April 18

In this particular day, I noticed that you supported a merge for "Members of the United States Congress of XXX descent" to "American people of XXX descent". For some of those discussions, however, the upmerge target that the nom suggested was for "American politicians of XXX descent" rather than the "people" cat. I'm referring specifically to the Taiwanese and Korean CFD discussions, who actually have "American politicians" categories with nontrivial numbers of members. I would like to confirm whether your supported target in those two instances are for the "American people" cats or the "American politicians" cats; I'd rather not make assumptions about what you think. Let me know as soon as you can! bibliomaniac15 02:33, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

@Bibliomaniac15: Thanks for spotting that out! Answered there. Place Clichy (talk) 13:47, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

"Purple wedge" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Purple wedge. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 10#Purple wedge until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:23, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Rome in the Middle East / Asia

Sorry, but I don't get your rationale. Can you elaborate pls? Laurel Lodged (talk) 15:37, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@Laurel Lodged:

1. What the Romans called Asia does not refer to what we call the continent of Asia today, or what is understood e.g. as the scope of Category:Former countries in Asia. It was restricted to what we today call the Middle East, and even in the strict sense a smaller part of it, Asia Minor, as in Asia (Roman Province). See also Ancient Near East § The concept of the Near East. I therefore don't see why you say that Noet all are in the Middel East.
2. I found Category:Former countries in the Middle East and Category:Former countries in Western Asia to be extremely crowded with redundant content and subcategories which could better be moved to more precise categories, per WP:SUBCAT. Category:Roman provinces in Asia is precisely one such category where we can sort this content a bit, and there is little need to have the likes of Bithynia and Pontus or Lycia et Pamphylia in these categories. After all, they were not even countries but Roman provinces.

Place Clichy (talk) 15:55, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm aware of the difference between Asia the Roman province and Asia the continent. My problem is that a lesser geographic area (a part of a continent) cannot be a child of a greater geographic area (i.e. the entire continent). Since the category in question covers the entire continent of Asia in its scope, then how can it be a child of just the Middle East? I think that your problem is with the scope of the current category rather than its categorical parentage. Maybe a CFD to re-define its scope to just the Near East or the Middle East? But since we already have Roman Levant and Anatolia categories, I don't think that that would add much valye. Laurel Lodged (talk) 09:50, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Precisely, the scope of a category called Roman provinces in Asia is restricted to the Middle East. It doesn't near renaming. If you wish to have this category renamed just to underline the fact that the Romans never went further in Asia, why not, but frankly I would find this would be overkill. I therefore see no problem at all in having the category with its current name parented to Middle or Near East categories. Place Clichy (talk) 10:40, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Category:Climate change denialists

You should not invest too much work in that category - it is probably doomed. See Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2020_May_22#Category:Climate_change_denialists. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:55, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

@Hob Gadling: Thank you for your concern for my time and energy. I am aware of the discussion, and I sincerely hope that the community will reach a coherent decision. I'm not sure what you suggest I do differently, though. Place Clichy (talk) 12:44, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

I would wait until the question is decided one way or the other. But since you were already aware of the discussion, I guess you know what you are doing. --Hob Gadling (talk) 20:07, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Pipes and redirects

  (green) India (region), as defined in the WGSRPD

A map of Punjab, Pakistan (to the West) and Punjab, India (to the East).

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with pipes and redirects. See, e.g. MOS:DABPIPE and the sections below. There's a particular problem in linking to the geographical areas covered by the WGSRPD codes, since their definition may not correspond exactly to the precise definition used in the nearest Wikipedia article. Leaving a redirect allows for an easier change if a better article becomes available.

Please read Wikipedia:PLANTS/WGSRPD and follow its advice. For example, I cannot find a plant that is endemic to Indian Punjab, so there is no need for the category Category:Flora of Punjab, India. The ridiculously long list of distribution categories at Dillenia pentagyna is against guidelines, and should be reduced to a few higher level categories. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:46, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Just to be clear, distribution categories are only for where the plant is native, not introduced.

• Use a reliable source that uses the WGSRPD, e.g. follow the POWO link in the taxonbar.
• Reduce cases where a plant is native in most subcategories of a larger category to the larger one, e.g. use Category:Flora of the Indian subcontinent rather than many categories for its regions.

Peter coxhead (talk) 09:14, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@Peter coxhead: answered your first point on the article talk page.

About the Punjab category, I agree that the ridiculously long list of distribution categories at Dillenia pentagyna is against guidelines at WP:PLANTS/Using the WGSRPD. However I am not the author of this article, I merely corrected ridiculously empty and orphan Category:Flora of Punjab by a category which I found better formatted and scoped.

Note that the WGSRPD zone defined as L4, IND-PU, "Punjab" is a part of upper-level L3 "India", and that Pakistan is a different L3 zone, as illustrated on the maps to the right. WGSRPD therefore unambiguously refers to Punjab, India. This article is a better link for the "Article link" column in List of codes used in the World Geographical Scheme for Recording Plant Distributions, and Category:Flora of Punjab, India is a better category. Place Clichy (talk) 09:56, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I entirely agree that if the category is needed, then "Flora of Punjab, India" is a better name. I don't dispute this. But the category is only needed if there are plants endemic to this area or restricted to very few areas of which this is one. Are there such plants? If not, the category is not necessary. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:00, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@Peter coxhead: Once again I did not add or look for plants endemic to this area, I already found one already categorized as such. I merely corrected a category poorly named and poorly formatted by a better one, and I do not see how this was a bad edit. You now emptied the category, and were right to do so in the absence of other content. Place Clichy (talk) 10:08, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I have already agreed with you re the name, but I had thought that you would have considered whether the category was actually needed, and that you must have decided that it was – why bother to re-name an unnecessary category, I thought. Sorry for making the wrong assumption. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:12, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Categories at "Category:Flora of Altai (region)"

At Category:Flora of Altai (region), you added Category:Geography of Altai Krai and Category:Geography of the Altai Republic. There are major problems in how to categorize geographical areas, in my experience, and this may be the best solution. However, WP:SUBCAT says "If logical membership of one category implies logical membership of a second (an is-a relationship), then the first category should be made a subcategory (directly or indirectly) of the second." But "Flora of Altai Krai + Altai Republic" is not a subcategory of either "Geography of Altai Krai" or "Geography of the Altai Republic". In terms of geography, the reverse is true; in terms of topic (flora vs. geography), there's no "is-a" relationship. Anyway, I leave this to your judgement. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:19, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I would have placed this category in Natural history of Altai Krai/Republic/region or Environment of Altai Krai/Republic/region of I had found such a category, as I have seen this structure frequently used in other flora and biota categories. However, in the absence of such categories, placing the flora directly in the Geography of.. parent seems to be a good solution, not excluding a later creation of the intermediate categories. Place Clichy (talk) 15:48, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Ok; however, they are not "parents". "Altai (region)" is the parent of both "Altai Krai" and "Altai Republic". A valid parent would be something like "Biogeography of Siberia" or some other area that includes both Altai Krai and Altai Republic. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:18, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Discretionary sanctions alerts are not "templates" that shouldn't be given to regulars

They can and should be given to editors without taking into account their experience/seniority or the quality of their edits. Without having had an alert or being involved in appropriate discussions, an editor is not subject to sanctions, and no one should be immune. I self-alert so I'm subject to all of them. Doug Weller talk 18:30, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

It may be the generic nature that I don't get, then. In all collaborative spirit, is there any specific edit or action I should do differently? Place Clichy (talk) 18:35, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Forgive me if I'm telling you what you already know. To see how common it is, one can search Ds/log. For example, to search for alerts given on your user talk page, I said https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Place_Clichy&action=history&tagfilter=discretionary+sanctions+alert. I did that for the 15 people who participated in the Category:Climate change denialists CfD, and found that only two (you and I) have received alerts re climate change in the last year. So, as Doug Weller explained, "It's for anyone who edits in the area" -- but only a few receive it. Incidentally some of the other CfD participants might have avoided receiving it if, like Doug Weller, they have used a Ds/aware notice. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 21:53, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1950s disestablishments in All-Palestine (Gaza)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1959 in All-Palestine (Gaza)

A tag has been placed on Category:1959 in All-Palestine (Gaza) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

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Kiev

Hi, you may want to react on the nomination of a large number of Kiev categories at WP:CFDS. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:57, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

EC

Did I just overwrite an edit of yours on the speedies? Sorry if so - I don't trust the new tool. Johnbod (talk) 17:42, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

AGF

Hi, I'm grateful that you're cleaning tags and making sure that they're warranted, but I wanted to mention to you that edit summaries like this diff are making a pretty objectional assumption. The page had the tag because she does migration studies, social inclusion work, and especially Afro-German studies, she's an advocate with affiliation groups for Black people in Germany, and she's been specifically described as a "migrant woman". I didn't just look at her face and decide she looks African, and it's pretty brutal -- and not in the spirit of WP:AGF -- to assume that's what I did. I recognise the merits of the change, and it would have been a totally fine edit and edit summary if you had just left out "The "face test" is not enough". - Astrophobe (talk) 15:09, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

@Astrophobe: hello and thanks for your message. Let me reassure you that there was indeed absolutely no assumption on my part as to the quality or the reasons that made you add this article to the category, despite my edit summary being maybe a bit blunt. To be frank I did not even look up which editor placed this category. As I am sure you understood, I was only checking if this article was filling the criteria for ethnicity and descent categories on a biographical article, which are a pretty high standard per guideline WP:EGRS, and even stricter for biographies of living people per WP:BLPCAT policy: it is mandatory to have reliable sources confirming that the subject of the article self-identifies with an ethnicity or descent before adding the biographical article to the category. Also, purely racial categories are strongly discouraged (see WP:ETHNICRACECAT) and for this reason categories about "African descent" are often considered to be valid only as container categories for more specific descent categories (see for instance this community discussion). Too often unfortunately, people will assume a specific ethnicity or descent based on the name of a person, or what their face "looks like", rather than what reliable sources say. In this case, you are correct that the topic of migration, and the identity of Afro-Germans and other mixed-background in Germany, are a topic of study for Hadija Haruna-Oelker. However I see no statement in the article about her self-identification, or a specific ascendancy relating to any country in Africa, which means that the article is not currently eligible for this category. My apologies again for the bluntness of my message, I have no doubt that your edit was in good faith. Place Clichy (talk) 15:47, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the thoughtful response, I really appreciate it. And I completely agree with you about the merits of the change. I made sure that I'm familiar with all of those policies, and I'll be more careful with that type of category in the future! I have extremely mixed feelings about racial and gender categories and I'm definitely not deeply invested in applying as many of them as possible, and I totally get the need to be very strict with making sure they're always correct and reliably cited. Thanks again! :) - Astrophobe (talk) 17:10, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Churches

Churches are both buildings and organizations. Please stop removing churches (and mosques, synagogues etc) from religious organization categories (which is out-of-process emptying). Category:Religious organizations based in the United States Virgin Islands was created by @Rathfelder: along with many of the others, so I am not alone in this view. In any case, cfd is the forum for deleting categories. 17:00, 9 October 2020 (UTC) - unsigned by Occuli. Johnbod (talk) 17:32, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

User:Occuli there is an open discussion to clarify policy on this - currently it is not clear that this should not be done. Place Clichy has opposed the draft. Johnbod (talk) 17:32, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Categories for Obstruction

I listed some more CFDs at talk:Kyiv#Related category renaming. May as well get your comments in now. Cheers. —Michael Z. 02:00, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Congratulations, Category:Kyiv Oblast and 25 subcategories took a full seven weeks to move, despite there being no opposition, no controversy, and no substantive points raised about it. —Michael Z. 04:22, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Speedy deletion

Hello, Place Clichy,

When you tag a page for any kind of deletion, please post a notice on the page creator's talk page informing them of the tagging. If you use Twinkle, this will happen automatically once you set up your preferences. Thanks! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:12, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

That's something I would usually do when it is appropriate. That's probably an oversight. Place Clichy (talk) 17:46, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Religious organisations based in British Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies

A tag has been placed on Category:Religious organisations based in British Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 16:11, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Category:American librarians of Korean descent has been nominated for merging

Category:American librarians of Korean descent has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. User:Namiba 15:31, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Categories

About this, note that Jinder Mahal is not from Punjab, India but belongs to the Punjabi ethnicity. That's why we need this category. Ethnicty and being from a certain region is not the same. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:54, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: thanks, I saw your edit and I agree completely that they are not the same. However the notion that Mahal belongs to the Punjabi ethnicity is already conveyed by the Canadian people of Punjabi descent category. Per our guideline on non-notable intersections by ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation, not every intersection of ethnicity and occupation is worth a specific category. I therefore removed the Punjabi professional wrestlers category because I think it does not meet the conditions set in this guideline. Place Clichy (talk) 16:03, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

I saw this, and I'm OK with it. I failed to notice Canadian people of Punjabi descent category. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:09, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Tagging pages for deletion

Hello, Place Clichy,

Just a reminder that anytime you tag a page for deletion (CSD, PROD, AfD/CfD/TfD/etc), you should post a notice on the talk page of the page creator informing them that the page has been tagged for deletion. Otherwise, a page they created can be deleted and they have no idea what has happened! There are times when they can easily correct whatever problems exist that cause the page to be tagged.

The process is made easy when you use Twinkle which automatically posts a talk page notice whenever you tag a page for deletion once you set up your Twinkle Preferences. You can see Twinkle-initiated messages (above) which I have posted to your own talk page when a page you created has been tagged for deletion. I encourage you to use it. Thank you! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:26, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

I just noticed that I have already posted a notice about this issue some time ago on your talk page. Consider this a second reminder. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 20:29, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

@Liz: Hello! Thanks for the reminder. I truly believe that I do post such notification messages every time I place such a tag. Yesterday I nominated several dozens of categories at CfD (not that I am especially proud of it) and I am pretty confident that I posted notifications for all of them, including to banned or vanished users. In fact, I even received comments that I posted too many notifications. However, of course, I may sometimes miss one, or eventually start the message in a browser tab that I did not then go back to (I have done that sometimes). Please consider this a honest mistake. Unless there is something more precise that you wish to raise. Many thanks for all the energy and work you put youself to category maintenance, and happy editing! Place Clichy (talk) 22:11, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Copying and pasting replies to discussion

Hi, I noticed you just participated in a similar discussion we had (Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2021_February_5#Category:Hong_Kong_people_of_Lower_Yangtze_descent). The fact that you appear to have ignored the summary of scholarly sources I have compiled that supports the topic’s existence as well as copy-pasted your replies you used on at least two previous CFD’s makes it hard for me to WP:AGF. I simply ask that if you want to delete my hard work, you do so with a more well-through our rationale. Thanks.—Prisencolin (talk) 19:07, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks

Good catch with Template:Ship name format/doc. I've updated things a bit, but you'll have to edit the page to see it. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 19:57, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Subotica, etc.

Hello. Have a look here, please. What is to be done? — Biruitorul ^Talk 04:26, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Making copies of Ottoman French publications

Hi! I found some copies of publications like Servet-i Funun on SALT Research and am making copies of them on archive.is. I'm hoping this helps preserve the sources for Wikipedian use WhisperToMe (talk) 01:54, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

kiengir

FYI

Best. --Boynamedsue (talk) 08:02, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

note

What you can do is increase the Republic of China instead of increasing China. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:7500:5DD:F5EB:0:0:5E:C4F9 (talk) 16:31, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

I am not sure what you mean by that. I guess this is a reference to your edits at Category:Ambassadors to Taiwan. However I think that neither me not Wikipedia have the power to do what you suggest. Place Clichy (talk) 16:44, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

You can touch when you understand what you are doing, but I don’t think you know what you are doing. Most people don't understand the difference between PRC, ROC and ROC (-1949), especially when you use CHINA. This is an extremely sensitive issue in Taiwan, especially the KMT political party, which often discusses this matter. This is also one of the main reasons why KMT’s support in Taiwan has been declining. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:7500:5dd:f5eb::5e:c4f9 (talk) 18:06, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

You are invited to join the discussion at Category talk:Ambassadors to Taiwan#Ambassadors to the Republic of China. Place Clichy (talk) 11:33, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Empty airplane categories

Hello, Place_Clichy,

You changed a template (or added a template) that I think caused several Austrian and Austro-Hungarian airplane categories to become empty. You can see them in the third column of Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion. If they are still empty in 7 days, they will be deleted. I just wanted to let you know in case you didn't intend to empty them. Thanks. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 16:08, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@Liz: thanks; indeed I changed some templates to harmonize usage between Austrian and Austro-Hungarian aircraft categories that were a mess with a lot of duplicate and redundant categories. I think I checked everything so that no information is lost and no content is orphaned with the changes, so there should be no issue in deleting the empty duplicate categories that are no longer needed. Place Clichy (talk) 16:22, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Bilateral sports relations of Argentina

A tag has been placed on Category:Bilateral sports relations of Argentina indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 14:29, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

Category:Athens Prefecture

Hello, Place Clichy,

You tagged this empty category as a speedy rename but it is not listed for a speedy rename at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion. You also tagged another empty category, Category:Protestant church buildings in United Kingdom, for a speedy rename but since it is empty and apparently a copy of Category:Protestant church buildings in the United Kingdom, I'm not sure why you didn't tag it for speedy deletion. Thank you.Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:26, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

@Liz: I did submit Category:Athens Prefecture for speedy deletion/upmerge (which comes down to the same thing) per WP:C2F as at that time it contained only the eponymous article; this was processed by User:Fayenatic london (ping) but deletion somehow got missed. As for Category:Protestant church buildings in United Kingdom, it is a mistake I created, so WP:C2E seemed more appropriate than WP:C1. In that case you are directed to nominate the article at WP:CFD/S and tag the article with {{cfr-speedy}}, but that template produces a kinda weird output when there is no target, despite the fact that speedy criteria such as WP:C2A, WP:C2E and WP:C2F can result in mere deletion with no renaming target to be specified. Place Clichy (talk) 06:14, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, it must have been at that point that I realised the page contents (a commons category link) also wanted merging to the lead articles. I did those merges, and forgot to come back and delete that one. Now done.

For C2F and other cases of speedy merging, please use {{cfm-speedy}} rather than cfr-speedy. – Fayenatic London 07:28, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Ah I had missed that cfm template, thank you. There could be a cfd-speedy template too, for some C2E cases and maybe C2A. Place Clichy (talk) 10:08, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Austrian and Austro-Hungarian aircraft cats

Hello you seem to have been making changes to Austrian and Austro-Hungarian aircraft categories and emptying valid categories like Category:Austrian civil aircraft after they have been correctly used. A change to Template:Airnd seems to have made a mess of everything otherwise we could just revert to the proper categories. This is confusing members of the WP:AIRCRAFT who are trying to do the right thing but you keep reverting and emptying the categories. Would appreciate if you could explain what you are trying to do on the aircraft project talk page so we can move forward rather then continuing emptying categories and potential edit warring, thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 13:23, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1803 establishments in Ireland

A tag has been placed on Category:1803 establishments in Ireland indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1815 disestablishments in Ireland

A tag has been placed on Category:1815 disestablishments in Ireland indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1790s establishments in the Republic of Venice

A tag has been placed on Category:1790s establishments in the Republic of Venice indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

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Is Israel usually classified among states with limited recognition?

Hello! You removed Category:Geography of Israel from Category:Geography by states with limited recognition with a comment: Israel is not usually classified among states with limited recognition. But I see that User:Selfstudier added the category to the article about Israel. Also Israel is listed in a list of states with limited recognition. --Olchug (talk) 08:09, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

@Olchug: response in several points:

1. Israel is mentioned at list of states with limited recognition in a section called UN member states not recognised by at least one UN member state which also includes PR China, North Korea, South Korea or Armenia. These UN member states all enjoy near-universal recognition but do have some outstanding diplomatic disputes.
2. Not suprisingly, the Israel article can be subject of much disputed editing. I would not take a single edit there as basis for policy.
3. There is currently no other child of Categories by states with limited recognition which includes an Israeli category, or a category for China, Armenia or similar states. If you intend to add them there, then this should be done for all such categories for all such countries, not just one. However, such a drastic change would probably be better accepted if you first started a discussion. I suggest WT:WikiProject Categories for the location of this discussion, with notices at e.g. WT:WikiProject Countries, WT:WikiProject Israel, Talk:Israel and Category talk:Categories by states with limited recognition.

Place Clichy (talk) 09:52, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

OK, than you for a clear answer. Should they then be also removed from Category:Wikipedia categories named after states with limited recognition? Olchug (talk) 09:57, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I think so. I see that they were added in this category relatively recently (15 February 2022), and I do not think that this edit is consensual. Place Clichy (talk) 10:05, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

I did all the categories except Category:Israel, it is protected. Can you do it too? Olchug (talk) 10:20, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

This makes no sense. On what basis are places being included in the category, one cannot just arbitrarily say, this one is in and that one is out?

If one wants to take them all out and delete the category then that can be discussed. Selfstudier (talk) 11:23, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

How so? If you want to give the label of "states with limited recognition" to China, South Korea, Israel etc. then you need to provide reliable sources which support that this label is defining, rather than the other way around. Frankly, I've sometimes seen the expression partial recognition applied to such cases, but certainly not limited recognition which would put them on par with Abkhazia or Northern Cyprus, whose recognition status cannot be compared in all good faith to that of Israel or PR China. Place Clichy (talk) 11:47, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

There is a page List of states with limited recognition, that's the basis for the category, all the states that are in it have consensus of WP editors to be in the list. As I said, if one want to make up new definitions ("partial", "generally" etc etc) then either those new definitions need to be explained (how many recognitions is partial?) or the category is not serving a purpose and should be deleted.Selfstudier (talk) 12:01, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

You might talk to @Heanor:, they recently attempted something here, deleting all entries to the current list and essayed a new cat Unrecognized or partly unrecognized states but then backtracked on that. I don't object to the cat being deleted per se, I would like to know whether the list (entries) should then be contained in some other cat besides the generic Lists of Countries. Selfstudier (talk) 12:58, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources and WP:Defining guidelines are the only way to go. The fact that one single country has a diplomatic dispute with Cyprus or Armenia does not change much to the status of these countries as widely recognized members of the international community and a U.N. member states. Granted, PR China and Israel have a little more countries withholding recognition, but they are still unambiguously and overwhelingly recognized as countries and U.N. member states. These diplomatic disputes are very useful to mention and explain in detail in List of states with limited recognition, however this article has very clear separate lists for very different cases that are not comparable at all. You cannot use the existence of this article (which is probably poorly named) to justify placing Israel, Cyprus et al. in limited recognition categories that are primarily aimed at Transnistria, South Ossetia and the like. WP:Wikipedia is not a reliable source. In fact, I can see that most of your recent edit seems to revolve around the Israel article and Israeli-Palestinian topics (which is a very noble topic), and I have the feeling that trying to add out-of-place limited recognition categories to all these countries is just a way to take a hit at your favourite target, which is strongly discouraged in the following guideline: Wikipedia:Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. The WP:CLNT is also worth mentioning here: what is good for a list is not good for a category, for many reasons. Place Clichy (talk) 14:01, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

The Israel Palestine thing is just a diversion on your part, I'm afraid, the reason that both these places have limited recognition is because of the conflict between them and yet you want to say that it is not defining only for one of them. Therefore any disruption on that front is your cross to bear not mine.

As for sourcing, again the sin is your own..eg "widely"..without a definition and most of the reply above is just a mess of OR, this sort of random definition making has led to years of argument on the country lists.

Selfstudier (talk) 14:15, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Please just start a discussion at the venue suggested above about whether categories about topics in these countries (not just Israel) deserve to be placed in limited recognition categories. Discussion on this user talk page has reached its ultimate point, it seems. I also note that most of these limited recognition were quite recently renamed from unrecognized or largely unrecognized states (example); the previous title was probably better in fact, as less ambiguous. Place Clichy (talk) 14:39, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

That was Heanor who did that also very recently. I agree that we have nothing further to discuss at this point.Selfstudier (talk) 14:46, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Since you claim that the lack of recognition for Israel is not "defining", then I have removed Palestine from the cat on the same basis. I would not be surprised if others also claim that x or y state of those that remain are also not defined by recognition. Selfstudier (talk) 14:24, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Now even the staunchest supporter of Palestinian statehood would not agree that, as of today, the state-level recognition of the State of Palestine is on par with that of Israel. Place Clichy (talk) 14:39, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

I am not the one making up the definitions. Selfstudier (talk) 14:43, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

I think you should consider the merits of Israel and Palestine separately. Especially so in terms of international recognition. It is not because something can be said about one that it becomes necessarily true for the other, as you implied in this edit summary, using a misread Wikipedia article as a source. Place Clichy (talk) 15:20, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

"limited recognition" applies when a state lacks recognition by even just one UN member state precisely because no-one wants to consider every case separately. Trying to split it up (with partly, widely, generally and all the rest) just leads to endless argument (look at Kosovo for example). Btw, in terms of number of recognitions, I and P are not that dissimilar, 20 or so difference in number. Selfstudier (talk) 15:51, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

That ("even just one UN member state") is you personal opinion. Is it shared by reliable sources? The difference between Israel and the State of Palestine is also that one is a UN member-state while the other is not (OK, it is an observer, but so is the Order of Malta) and that Palestine is also only a de jure state with a lack of actual control on its territory, especialy in terms of borders and security, which are key components of international recognition of statehood. You can't just mirror one situation to the other. Place Clichy (talk) 16:48, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

It is the List of states with limited recognition#Criteria for inclusion for the list, not my personal opinion. Recognition and UN status are two different things, the list is about recognition. Same as List of sovereign states is about sovereignty, not recognition (I and P are both in the list).

Also please see my query to Olchug on his talk page re the flag. Selfstudier (talk) 16:55, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Again you are using a Wikipedia list page as if it was a source. There are 2 faults in this reasoning: 1°) this list is clearly split into several cases which are not comparable at all (that of UN member states with some outstanding diplomatic disputes, and that of fledgling de facto or proto-states fighting for recognition) and 2°) what is good for a list is not automatically good for a category, the differences between the two being clearly explained in the WP:CLNT guideline. Among other differences, a list article allows for nuance, whether a category inclusion does not. Anyway, for the last time, please bring this content discussion to a community page and out of my user page. Place Clichy (talk) 10:19, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Sure, next time try reading the article before making false allegations. You could also try AGF. Bye now. Selfstudier (talk) 10:46, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Please notice that both Heanor and Olchug are now blocked as socks.Selfstudier (talk) 15:14, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

The simplest solution would appear to be to change everything from limited recognition to "Other states" following the structure in List of sovereign states (of which List of states with limited recognition is a subset). Selfstudier (talk) 15:58, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

I do not think that is a good idea. Once again you are using a Wikipedia list as reference point. Other states seems like a weird definition. If you wish to launch a discussion about the scope of these categories, Unrecognized or largely unrecognized countries, which was used in the past, could be a solution. Place Clichy (talk) 08:08, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

That would appear to be a "definition" made up by WP editors in the past, "Other states" is defined in the present as States not in the UN system per the sov states page.Selfstudier (talk) 10:04, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

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Category:Babylonia

I'm trying to categorise mediaeval rabbis. Many of them are in Category:Rabbis of Academy of Pumbedita, which is in Category:Babylonia, but the note on that - which you have recently editted - says "This category is for articles relating to Babylonia (18th century BC–539 BC)." I'm looking at Category:9th-century rabbis and the like. I know very little about the history of this period, and I'm hoping you know more than me. Can we call these people Babylonian, as many of the articles do, or if not, what?Rathfelder (talk) 13:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I don't think I know more than you about the history of the region, or early medieval Judaism. Of course you would expect Babylon/ia to have a certain place in Judaism-related topics... The most precise information on this topic is probably to be found at Talmudic academies in Babylonia (emphasis added):

The Talmudic academies in Babylonia [...] were the center for Jewish scholarship and the development of Halakha from roughly 589 to 1038 CE [...] in what is called "Babylonia" in Jewish sources, at the time otherwise known as Asōristān (under the Sasanian Empire) or Iraq (under the Muslim caliphate until the 11th century). It is neither geopolitically, nor geographically identical with the ancient empires of Babylonia, since the Jewish focus of interest has to do with the Jewish religious academies, which were mainly situated in an area between the rivers Tigris and Euphrates and primarily between Pumbedita (modern Fallujah, a town west of Baghdad), and Sura, a town farther south down the Euphrates. The key work of these academies was the compilation of the Babylonian Talmud.

Therefore, this topic seems to be indeed distinct from either the state of Babylonia (which seased to exist at the Fall of Babylon in 539 BC) and the city of Babylon itself, which was apparently inhabited until the 10th century, although superseded by the neighbouring capitals of Seleucia (founded ca. 305 BC) and later Ctesiphon and Baghdad. The anachronistic use of the terms of Babylon and Babylonia for the prestige of this ancient name is not unique to Judaism, as for instance the title of Patriarch of Babylon is still used by several Eastern Churches.

The trouble here is with Category:Jewish Babylonian history, which includes both topics related to the Babylonian captivity (of 597 to 539 BC, which of course did happen in Babylonia the Empire) and later topics referred to as Babylonian within the context of Judaism at a time when the region was known predominantly by another name.

I suggest the following:

• Keep Category:Jewish Babylonian history in Category:Babylonia because of the undeniable link between the two concepts
• Remove Category:Talmud rabbis of Babylonia from Category:Babylonian people, because this link is anachronistic. They do not belong there any more than Category:Chaldean Catholic Patriarchs of Babylon does. They could be placed in another category such as Category:Iraqi people or an appropriate child category.

A further, but probably difficult, development, would be to propose splitting Category:Jewish Babylonian history into content relative to the captivity (see Category:Babylonian captivity) and "Talmudic" Babylonia. @Rathfelder: I hope this helps. Place Clichy (talk) 14:47, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

• Thank you. You've confirmed that its a bit of a mess! And I think I've worked out that some of these rabbis can go in Category:Jews of the Abbasid CaliphateRathfelder (talk) 14:51, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1800s establishments in Greece

A tag has been placed on Category:1800s establishments in Greece indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1810s disestablishments in Greece

A tag has been placed on Category:1810s disestablishments in Greece indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

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Tagging pages for deletion

Hello, Place Clichy,

Recently, you tagged some categories for speedy deletion. However, you didn't post a notification on the talk page of the page creator. This is part of the deletion process and a content creator has the right to know that a page they created is headed towards deletion. I'm sure you would want to know. Most editors and admins do this using Twinkle, an editing tool that makes things very simple for editors. Once you set up your Twinkle Preferences to "Notify page creator", then Twinkle will post these notification on your behalf and notify the page creator. Please do this in the future. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

@Liz: care to tell which page I tagged for deletion and which creator talk page I did not notify? I believe I did notify creators, and a lot, see: [6] [7] [8]. So no offense, but your 'I'm sure you would want to know' tone is a little bit patronizing. This may be the effect of a copy-pasted standard message though. Place Clichy (talk) 08:21, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

You tagged a lot of categories created by MonFrontieres for deletion and I only see that you have posted notifications recently. I look at your contributions and I see categories being tagged but not notifications posted on User talk page. Please also do not empty categories out of process. If you believe a category should be deleted, please use CFD. I don't mean to be patronizing, I realize that you are a very experienced editor, I just want to make sure that our processes are followed. That's my role as an administrator. I post messages like this all of the time, I'm sorry if you feel offended by this. It was just meant to be a reminder. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

I see I already have posted a message exactly like this one on your talk page 2 years ago so this is not a new issue. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:30, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

@Liz: Indeed I sometimes prefer to combine several notices in one single large edit. Some users have even suggested me to combine the verbose notifications even more, but I don't know how to do that using the standard message. However I do post notifications. The issue therefore seems not to be the absence of notification, but the fact that I am not using your tool. Therefore it is an issue for you and not for me (respectfully said). The whole thing (tagging categories and notifying the creator) took less than 30 minutes. Place Clichy (talk) 09:51, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:1805 in the Habsburg monarchy

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Category:Protestants from insular areas of the United States has been nominated for renaming

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Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Freemasonry in Slovakia

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False category in Commons

You changed the Commons:Category:Bilingual Croatian-German signs to bilingual Serbo-croatian-german signes. But this ist not correct, because the additional language to german is here the language de:Burgenlandkroatische Sprache or in french le langue de fr:Croate du Burgenland and this is different to your intention. regards K@rl 16:43, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello! Which file are you referring to? Croatian is a form of the Serbo-Croatian language, and in most cases it is not useful to have separate categories for signs which use separate variants of Serbo-Croatian. The only consequence is that content is split over separate redundant categories and poorly organized. If you believe that there is a special case where the precision is useful, then I am all in favour of having a local more precise category, provided it is correctly parented to the nearest Serbo-Croatian sign category. To take an example, commons:File:Salzburg - Neustadt - Andräkirche - 2020 05 26-3.jpg was one of just 2 files in commons:Category:Bilingual Croatian-German signs, although it has no link whatsoever to the Burgenland Croat language. This was a mistake (actually history shows that I placed this file in the category myself some time ago). This file is much better located in commons:Category:Bilingual German-Serbo-Croatian signs and commons:Category:Serbo-Croatian-language signs in Austria, which are both a lot better populated with related files. Files showing Burgenland Croat are probably better located at commons:Category:Croatian inscriptions in Burgenland, which can be placed in parallel with other categories such as Bilingual German-Serbo-Croatian signs if they are bilingual. I hope this helps to understand the spirit of this edit. Place Clichy (talk) 17:08, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

(@Karl Gruber:) Hello Place Clichy , there might have been a misunderstanding: In Austria, we often understand Croatian only as "Burgenland Croatian" because this is the dominating linguistic variety of the Croatian language in Austria (as far as it concerns written language). Whatsoever, I consider Bilingual Croation-German signs not as a redirect but better to keep it as a subcategory of Bilingual German-Serbo-Croatian signs. And then we put the "signs" category - as signs are a specific case of inscriptions - as a subcategory of the "inscriptions" thread. In my opinion, this way we match with the linguistic facts and the objects (signs and inscriptions) as well. Would you agree? Eweht (talk) 20:33, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

@Eweht and Karl Gruber: thank you, I agree with most of what is written here, it makes sense. As Bilingual Croatian-German signs is not an expression specific to Austria, I suggest to create a category called Bilingual Croatian-German signs in Austria (or maybe in Burgenland) and place it as a child of Category:Bilingual German-Serbo-Croatian signs (the international category), Category:Croatian inscriptions in Burgenland (to precise that Burgenland Croatian language is the topic) and maybe Category:Bilingual signs in Austria. Place Clichy (talk) 10:47, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

@Eweht: Thanks for your understand. I think Bilingual Croatian-German signs in Austria should be the solution, because out of history, it could be one or the other plaques in other territories from Austria in this combination. --regards K@rl 07:55, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Divided regions

The Dakotas were one territory as Dakota Territory prior to statehood. I am not sure anyone would think of them as a distinct divided region, and since Maine was at one time part of Massachusetts maybe they constitute in some way a divided region. However at one time there was one political unit that included both Dakotas and nothing else. New Mexico Territory at one point included Arizona, but I would not advocate New Mexico/Arizona as a divided region.John Pack Lambert (talk) 11:23, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

@Johnpacklambert: That's nice to know, thanks. I don't think that every former territory or subdivision that was subsequently reshaped deserves to be called a divided region because that would just be too indiscriminate. Place Clichy (talk) 14:08, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Good point. I am less then sure we have a way to define what would be and what would not be a divided region enough to say yes, this belongs in the category, this does not.John Pack Lambert (talk) 16:00, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Category:Vice-chancellors of the University of Eswatini has been nominated for merging

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Happy template editing! Primefac (talk) 07:22, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

@Primefac:  Thank you very much! Place Clichy (talk) 07:31, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Bahá'í Faith in American Samoa

A tag has been placed on Category:Bahá'í Faith in American Samoa indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. ✗plicit 13:00, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Bahá'í Faith in Samoa

A tag has been placed on Category:Bahá'í Faith in Samoa indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. ✗plicit 13:00, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Abovyan City redirect

Hey! Stumbled across this redirect that you created – is this not ambiguous with Abovyan, the city in which the stadium is located? I'm not familiar with the stadium's level of prominence, but that seems like usual natural disambiguation. Skarmory (talk • contribs) 04:35, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

@Skarmory: All I know is that I found, here, an incoming red link to Abovyan City, which meant the stadium. I fixed the link and created a redirect, in case someone creates such a link again in the future. I don't really have a strong opinion, but I believe that if someone would want to place a link to the city or look for it, they would probably not type Abovyan City (same as Manchester City unambiguously means the football club, not the city). A possible way is to place a redirect pointing to the city's article, like this. Place Clichy (talk) 08:31, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Dutch painters

I'm sorry I missed this discussion - you said "Note that Dutch Golden Age painting is not exclusively associated with the Dutch Republic and is closely related with e.g. Flemish Baroque painting, the Antwerp school and Peter Paul Rubens" - what a silly remark. It VERY MUCH IS "exclusively associated with the Dutch Republic". Flemish Baroque painting is a different subject. Johnbod (talk) 03:02, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

@Johnbod: you are correct on that and, looking back at it, I think I was wrong to write that. However, regarding the category discussion, it does not really change the argument that painters of the Dutch Golden Age are better categorized as Category:Dutch Golden Age painters than as Painters from the Dutch Republic, because it is the artistic movement that defines them better. Incidentally, the former is a long-standing, appropriately populated category, and already a child of several other Dutch Republic categories, while the latter was, at the time of the discussion, besides the redundancy, an abandoned creation by a hectic user with just one child. Place Clichy (talk) 08:51, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Ok, thanks - I agree about the actual Cfd issue. Johnbod (talk) 15:49, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Sufragists by state to by state and territory

The fact that at least 2 US territories granted women sufferage before any states did makes the by territory part of the safeagists movement uniquely important. While I think you are right the by US by state should give way to by state and territory, sufragists is a case where this is uniquely clear.John Pack Lambert (talk) 08:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Johnpacklambert: Thanks, that is worth mentioning. Place Clichy (talk) 18:19, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Why did you remove Category:Members of the House of Representatives (Japan) from all the Japanese lawmakers who were in the House both prewar and postwar?

WP:SUBCAT: Don't place an item into a category and its parent.

In my view, you should definitely not have removed this category. These are specifically lawmakers who were in the House of Representatives both before World War II (when it was "Empire of Japan"), and after World War II (when it was just "Japan"). You have removed useful information. If there is an issue with the categories being nested, that is an issue with the categories themselves. Please undo these changes. --Ash-Gaar (talk) 16:14, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

@Ash-Gaar: Thank you for your message. Actually I did not remove them from this category at all. They are already in a more precise sub-category. It is redundant and useless to keep both a parent and a child category, as explained in editing guideline WP:SUBCAT. I thought I was clear enough in my edit summary, but I realized afterwards that I had made made a mistake in the link, sorry about that. Place Clichy (talk) 16:27, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

@Place Clichy: Thanks for your reply. I feel like you did not quite understand the point I was making. These lawmakers were in two separate Houses of Representatives under two separate Japanese constitutions before and after the war. Not all lawmakers were in both. There should be a way for those who were in both to be represented in both categories. If the policy is against this, it is an issue with the way the categories are nested as parent and child, which should be changed. But you've removed valuable information here. --Ash-Gaar (talk) 16:58, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

@Ash-Gaar:, indeed, if you start by giving the name of an article, or a link to an edit I made, it will help me to understand what you have an issue with. I see nothing in the name, or the description, of Category:Members of the House of Representatives (Japan) that says that it is explicitly for the post-War Diet, especially since Category:Members of the House of Representatives (Empire of Japan) is a child category. If you wish to have such a category, I suggest to either create Category:Members of the House of Representatives (State of Japan), or to create a separate category for each term, as you can see in the several countries at Category:Legislators by term. However, this second solution would probably need a lot of work and create a lot of often overlapping categories, so it is not absolutely necessary. Yet another solution (that can be combined with the above) is to place a small explanation in Category:Members of the House of Representatives (Japan), e.g.:

This category is for members of the House of Representatives (Japan), the lower house of the National Diet of Japan. Members during the constitutional Empire of Japan (1890-1945) should be placed in Category:Members of the House of Representatives (Empire of Japan).

Place Clichy (talk) 17:19, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Notification about contentious topics guidelines when it comes to the Balkans

You have recently made edits related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe. This is a standard message to inform you that the Balkans or Eastern Europe is a designated contentious topic. This message does not imply that there are any issues with your editing. For more information about the contentious topics system, please see Wikipedia:Contentious topics.

I noticed in the log you were previously notified about the contentious topics of climate change and Arab-Israeli conflict, but I wanted to mention the one about the Balkans as well. Apologies if you're already aware of that one too. --Joy (talk) 12:22, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Categories

Hello, Place Clichy,

Is there a good reason you are emptying out categories created by User:The Anonymous Earthling? They were a sockmaster, not a block-evading sockpuppet so they are not eligible for CSD G5. Of course, now they are tagged for CSD C1.

You are a very experienced editor and should know that it's discouraged to empty categories "out of process". If you believe a certain category or group of categories should be deleted, please send them to WP:CFD rather than removing all of the category contents. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:19, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi User:Liz! Indeed I found a set of categories that were mostly empty, with only a single eponymous article or highly redundant between themselves, often badly parented, and I'm trying to sort things out a little bit as much as I can, i.e. placing articles at the best possible location. As an example, Category:Angami Naga only had an eponymous article in it when I found it (which means it could have been speedily deleted according to WP:C2F) and I populated it with content that was scattered around, so "emptying" is not really a good description in this case. The Anonymous Earthling's editing in terms of categorization was, excuse me, a little bit reckless, probably out of a lack of habit or understanding of categories. This mess was a quite recent creation, mostly mid-2023, far from a consensual established situation. I think that WP:BOLD and WP:G1 allow users to try and fix things they find broken. At least I am confident that my edits in this area are, all things considered, an improvement. Thank you for your constant vigilance though. Place Clichy (talk) 01:54, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Suffragists from Hawaii

since Women's suffrage was ensured by the constitution about 40 years before Hawaii became a state, I am pretty silure that Sufragists from Hawai'i are either from the Territory of Hawaii or from the Republic or Kingdom.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:35, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Well, all the current articles are on people who lived at least part of their lives in the Territoey of Hawai'i and advanced suffrage there. A few may have done so pre-American annexation, but all can be placed in an American tree, none died or left Hawai'i before annexation. On the other hand all died before statehood, most a decade or more before statehood. So in this case it is under American suffragists as a by terrotory not a by state category.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:43, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Quelques explications

Bonjour, qu'est-ce qui vous permet de conclure à partir de "France shall be an indivisible, secular, democratic and social Republic. It shall ensure the equality of all citizens before the law, without distinction of origin, race or religion", que nationalité française = citoyenneté française ? Frenchl (talk) 15:43, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Vu que l'on est sur Wikipédia en anglais, je pense qu'il vous faut plutôt proposer vos changements peu consensuels sur Talk:French people, et en anglais. Quelques points cependant:

1. Attention aux faux amis, citizenship en anglais et citoyenneté en français ce n'est pas forcément 100% équivalent. Pareil pour nationality et nationalité.
2. Vos modifications semblent indiquer que vous considérez que citoyenneté signifie avoir le droit de vote, pas plus, pas moins. C'est évidemment beaucoup plus compliqué.
3. Vous citez une source vie-publique.fr qui dit: "En France, il existe un lien très étroit entre nationalité et citoyenneté." Vous la résumez par: "French law does not equate citizenship with nationality." C'est vraiment aller dans le sens opposé de ce que dit cette source.

Je vous suggère amicalement de mettre l'accent sur ce lien très étroit entre citoyenneté et nationalité, en soulignant les différences présentes et passées, plutôt que de mettre en avant en premier l'incompatibilité fondamentale supposée de ces deux notions. Place Clichy (talk) 15:55, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Il faut lire la source en entier : "La qualité de citoyen est d’abord liée à la détention de la nationalité. Ce lien est très fort en France contrairement à d'autres pays, notamment scandinaves.

Si la nationalité est une condition nécessaire, elle n’est pas suffisante. La personne doit aussi jouir de ses droits civils (droit de se marier, d’être propriétaire, etc.) et politiques (droit de voter, par exemple). Cette condition exclut les mineurs, les majeurs sous tutelle et les personnes privées de ces droits par une décision de justice." Frenchl (talk) 16:01, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Certes. Ces restrictions sont peu surprenantes et il en existe probablement d'équivalentes dans à peu près tous les pays. D'où la différence entre les sens français et anglais des mots. Et c'est surtout un contresens complet de présenter ces limitations de droits civiques aux mineurs etc. comme une restriction dans un texte dont le sujet est l'accès à la nationalité, comme à la citoyenneté, à des personnes sans différence d'origine ni d'ethnie. Place Clichy (talk) 16:16, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

ça fait juste 14 millions de personnes qui ont la nationalité française sans en avoir la citoyenneté. Mais allons-y mettons un signe égal. Expliquez moi aussi comment on peut qualifier de Français quelqu'un qui est juste né sur le territoire ou y a juste travaillé. J'utilise beaucoup Petscan avec les catégories et ce genre de mauvaise catégorisation (avec par exemple des sportifs étrangers qui ont juste passé une saison en France et se retrouvent dans la catégorie "Français") m'empêche de bosser correctement. C'est très clair qu'il y a un gros manque de rigueur. Frenchl (talk) 16:11, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Né en France => droit du sol => Français, sauf exception marginale du type loi Pasqua. Il y a des milliers (sans doute même plus) d'articles de footballeurs, notamment, dont la nationalité est catégorisée au petit bonheur. Je pense que la seule solution est de ne pas y accorder trop d'importance et de considérer ça comme faisant partie de la poésie de Wikipédia. Vous faites d'ailleurs très bien de corriger ces informations, et d'aller chercher des sources, quand vous trouvez des erreurs! Par contre, les catégories de personnes par pays ne sont pas (et à mon avis ne peuvent pas) être séparées de manière ultra rigoureuse entre nationaux et non-nationaux (par ex. People from France et French people). Si vous proposez de séparer Category:French people (et toutes les autres catégories nationales) en deux entre Category:French people (strictement pour les nationaux) et Category:People from France (pour les autres), ça représente un tel changement qu'il vous faut probablement obtenir un consensus préalable sur WT:WikiProject Categories. Place Clichy (talk) 16:22, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Je vais lâcher l'affaire. Y'a des erreurs originelles qui ont été faites y'a 15 ans et tellement de conservatisme qu'il est impossible de les corriger. J'avais terminé de corriger les mauvaises catégorisations pour la France, c'était nickel et là vous annulez tout en un clic. Dans le football vu le nombre de joueurs nés en France de parents étrangers on parle pas de phénomène marginal, et même si ça concernait que trois joueurs j'aurais le même raisonnement. On n'a pas en France le même jus soli qu'aux US, et cette encyclopédie est totalement US-biaised. C'est à la fois intéressant à observer et très agaçant. Frenchl (talk) 16:49, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Le prérequis contextuel parfois américain et parfois aussi British est surprenant et agaçant, c'est vrai. Mais une catégorisation c'est toujours imparfait par définition : on ne peut jamais tout ranger parfaitement dans des boîtes, il y aura toujours des cas particuliers. Ma maxime: le mieux est l'ennemi du bien. Je n'annule pas tout, je vous rassure, et je considère bon nombre de vos modifs comme parfaitement valide, par exemple quand vous vérifiez la nationalité de quelqu'un qui a, par exemple, juste joué au football dans un pays. Par contre, retirer par exemple Category:German emigrants to Japan de son grand-parent Category:Germany–Japan relations, c'est une erreur. Place Clichy (talk) 16:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

C'est quoi la différence entre German emigrants to Japan et Category:German expatriates in Japan ? La logique voudrait qu'on fusionne les deux. Il y a un amalgame général entre immigré et naturalisé alors que ce sont deux catégories qui ne se recoupent pas totalement : seuls 36% des immigrés en France sont Français d'après l'INSEE. D'après Wikipédia c'est (ou c'était, avant ma correction) 100%. Valable pour tous les pays. C'est problématique. En fait ça dérange personne parce que peu de gens utilisent les outils Petscan pour faire des recherches croisées entre catégories. Voilà, moi je signale un vrai problème, global, qui se limite pas à la France et sans doute pas au sujet des nationalités : le système de catégorisation dysfonctionne, avec des pages qui se retrouvent indirectement dans des catégories où elles ne devraient pas être. J'ai par exemple le souvenir d'Américains qui se retrouvaient Français juste parce qu'ils étaient nés en Louisiane deux siècles après que la France y ait renoncé. Frenchl (talk) 17:57, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Je crois que le mieux aurait été d'ajouter Category:Germany–Japan relations, mais sans remettre Category:Japanese people of German descent. Frenchl (talk) 18:07, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Jean Marlin, militaire français, nulle part mentionné comme ayant acquis la nationalité japonaise, inhumé dans le cimetière étranger de Yokohama (il est donc uniquement français puisque le Japon exige que ses naturalisés renoncent à leur précédente nationalité), se retrouve catégorisé comme Japanese people. Frenchl (talk) 18:30, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Emigrant/Immigrant c'est quelqu'un qui s'installe dans un pays et en fait sa résidence principale, effectivement sans forcément en prendre la nationalité. Expatriate c'est quelqu'un qui s'installe temporairement, typiquement comme un ambassadeur, un joueur de foot ou un détachement professionnel. Comme dans bon nombre de cas la citoyenneté réelle d'une personne n'est pas connue avec certitude, ne peut pas être établie voire n'a pas de sens, par exemple pour des personnes très éloignées dans le temps (quelle était la nationalité d'Aristote ou de Saladin ?), il n'est pas choquant, ni pas vraiment un problème, que des personnes dans des catégories N-2 ou N-3 de Japanese people soient liées au Japon mais n'aient jamais eu la nationalité japonaise. L'alternative, qui serait de créer des catégories pour les Personnes d'un pays X qui ne sont pas Xiennes serait pire que le mal. Tout simplement parce qu'une telle solution ne pourrait pas être maintenue dans le temps. Place Clichy (talk) 18:53, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Je viens de découvrir que Manuel Valls, Patrick Viera, Charlotte Gainsbourg et Roman Polanski sont catégorisés comme morts et je sais même pas comment expliquer ça... Y'a des milliers de personnes qui sont catégorisées comme à la fois mortes et vivantes c'est n'importe quoi... Frenchl (talk) 20:05, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Quelle recherche PetScan donne-t-elle ce résultat? Place Clichy (talk) 21:07, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Celle-ci : https://petscan.wmflabs.org/?psid=26470424

Par la magie des sous-catégorisations, je vous annonce qu'Anne Hidalgo et Patrick Bruel sont morts aussi. Frenchl (talk) 21:48, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Pas pour moi. L'intersection de Category:Dead people et Category:Living people est vide à 16 degrés de profondeur. D'ailleurs, je ne vois pas bien par quel chemin Manuel Valls se retrouverait dans une catégorie de Category:Dead people. Une idée? Place Clichy (talk) 21:58, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Vide aussi, ça a l'air de donner ce résultat que quand on ajoute la catégorie Immigrants en France. Pas trouvé pour Valls, mais j'ai trouvé pour Serge Klarsfeld, qui est catégorisé comme mort via (chemin raccourci) Holocaust>Meurtres dans les années 40>Deaths>Dead people. Frenchl (talk) 23:15, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Stateless nationalists in South America

A tag has been placed on Category:Stateless nationalists in South America indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:24, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Descent is not notable beyond grandchildren

I like that saying. If we could get it applied consistently we could cut fmdown on the size of overcategprizatolion in some cases. For example J do not believe either descent Category Ben Affleck is in is defining for him.John Pack Lambert (talk) 01:09, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

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Nomination notice without actual nomination

See User_talk:AHI-3000#Category:Interracial_relationships_has_been_nominated_for_merging_to_Category:Exogamy. Presumably some kind of mistake? Marcocapelle (talk) 07:54, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

@Marcocapelle: Ah yes, I guess that can happen and I must have a draft of an actual nomination somewhere among a few hundreds of open tabs. Or I submitted it after writing it for some time and there was an edit conflict that I did not catch, again if I did not come back to this tab shortly after. As this notice is actually not on the correct editor's talk page, that must also be a wrong copy/paste. Thanks for spotting it. Place Clichy (talk) 09:39, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Hockey players

Firstly, thank you. I was not aware of the previous discussion. But I recreated the category to make it easier for navigation. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:04, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Per Category:Jewish sportspeople (part of Category:Sportspeople by ethnicity), I think it is fair there should be Category:Jewish ice hockey players. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:06, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

But I sincerely did not know about the previous discussion when I created it and I do apologize for that. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:10, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

I will be moving category to Cfd. Omnis Scientia (talk) 13:10, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Category:Catholic universities and colleges in Honduras has been nominated for splitting

Category:Catholic universities and colleges in Honduras has been nominated for splitting. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Mason (talk) 23:56, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Category:Foo in the Americas

Has there been some kind of consensus to delete all the "Foo in the Americas" categories? Because if not then I don't think its ok that you're emptying them all out to get them speedy deleted. ★Trekker (talk) 15:48, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

@StarTrekker: Hello! Thanks for the interest. I certainly have no intent of deleting all of Americas-related content, none of it actually. I happened to find some local cases where there was a broken situation with conflicting schemes of continent-based diffusion, sometimes using North/South America, sometimes Americas in the plural, sometimes Latin/Central America overlapping the former and sometimes as more refined diffusion lower in the hierachy. I saw that a great part of this mess was the work of long-gone blocked editors, often AquilaXIII.

To be clear: where there is content that is relative to the Americas seen collectively, then I definitely support having categories at that level to reflect that. Category:International organizations based in the Americas and Category:Sports governing bodies in the Americas are examples of topics that are often organized on a pan-American basis. When there is just an Americas category that's merely an empty container of North and South America that's conflicting with the by-continent scheme and generating redundancy, I believe it's OK to fix things boldly. I hope these explanations allow you to understand the edits better. Place Clichy (talk) 16:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Place Clichy,

Please think twice before emptying all of these categories out of process. Almost all of your recategorizations have been reverted which means that their was objection to your edits. So many categories that were tagged for speedy deletion as empty categories that are no longer empty. Please go through CFD next time so we don't run into edit wars over categorization, especially when you are taking on a large recategorization project and not just dealing with one category. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 16:48, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello Liz,

I attempted a local improvement, certainly not a "large recategorization project". It seems that an editor took the time to blankly and indiscriminately revert a number of edits, which I believe were obvious clear improvements. I can only say I am a bit sad that people will just revert clear improvements without looking at their merits or even discussing them. (BTW this is not directed at StarTrekker, who did come to discuss on my talk page.) I am only a bit sad though, because that's just the way things go I guess. Place Clichy (talk) 17:02, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

CfD nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 January 18 § Category:Russian Orthodox churches by country

A category or categories you have created have been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 January 18 § Category:Russian Orthodox churches by country on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. –Aidan721 (talk) 15:28, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Byzantine Order of the Holy Sepulchre

Hi, I saw you added the link between "Byzantine Order of the Holy Sepulchre" and "Orthodox Knights of the Holy Sepulchre"

So i thought you may know about them, there is also the Ordo Byantinus Sancti Sepulchri (OBSS), Order of the Holy Sepulchre (OSS) & The Order of the Byzantine Knights of the Holy Sepulchre/Ordre des Chevaliers du Saint-Sépulcre Byzantin/Orden der Byzantinischen Ritter vom Heiligen Grab; are they identical too? (List of acronyms: O at least claims that Byzantine Order of the Holy Sepulchre=Ordo Byantinus Sancti Sepulchri) Braganza (talk) 07:38, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

There's probably sometimes a confusion with the Catholic Order of the Holy Sepulchre, which is far more notable. The Orthodox decoration is awarded by the Jerusalem Patriarchate. From the pictures on it, the German site behind your third link indeed seems to refer to the Catholic order. Place Clichy (talk) 16:39, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

"Der byzantinische Zweig der Grabesritter ist nach dem Untergang des oströmischen Reiches vom Kaiserhaus Habsburg fortgeführt worden und besteht heute als ökumenisch-christlicher Ritterorden ohne konfessionelle Bindung seiner Mitglieder fort."

weird, there is a "byzantine" branch which is not related to a confession and is austrian?

thanks for your reply Braganza (talk) 11:24, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Czech diaspora in Italy

A tag has been placed on Category:Czech diaspora in Italy indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. ✗plicit 12:16, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

CFDs

Hello, Place Clichy,

I just came across Category:Sexuality in the Americas and other "in the Americas" categories that look like they were left out of your CFD nomination that recently closed. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Kenya–Ireland sports relations

A tag has been placed on Category:Kenya–Ireland sports relations indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:06, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Equatoguinean people of North American descent

A tag has been placed on Category:Equatoguinean people of North American descent indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:12, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Redundancy in cats

What redundancy is there here? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category%3AHonduran_people_of_Mexican_descent&diff=1205998520&oldid=1185467207 ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:03, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, I guess this is just the revert of this edit by a banned sock puppet who had added a completely useless and redundant route to this category. To be more precise: creating Category:Honduran people of Latin American descent, placing the Mexican category as the lone child and moving on, leaving it near empty, is a butchered job that is worth reverting. Place Clichy (talk) 00:11, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

I can't speak to a sockpuppet, but again, what is redundant? Latin America is not a subset to North America, so what is the less circuitous route here? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:36, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

All useful routes are already covered by the existing categories:

* People of Mexican descent > North American people of Mexican descent > Honduran people of Mexican descent
* Honduran people by descent > Honduran people of North American descent > Honduran people of Mexican descent

I don't see any new useful possibility of navigation that was added, just category cruft. That's redundant. Place Clichy (talk) 00:48, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

If you think "[x] people of Latin American descent" should not exist, the solution is to bring it to CfD, not to just empty all categories and leave them empty. Are you tacitly or implicitly proposing that this scheme shouldn't exist? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:20, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

If you ask my opinion, I indeed feel that Latin American categories (or Americas categories for that matter) are most useful when there is actual dedicated content to put there, such as Latin American culture, which is indeed unique. When they just serve as container for national categories with a scheme that overlaps and conflicts the conventional 6-continent scheme, that's just a useless overlap IMHO. But my ambition here is not to propose drastic changes when a scheme is correctly implemented. I am merely trying to fix the mistakes and holes left by Oli2000s. Place Clichy (talk) 01:30, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Emptying categories

Hello, Place Clichy,

If you look at Category:Empty categories awaiting deletion, you'll see the notation Categories emptied out of process are not eligible for speedy deletion under C1.

It seems like you are often emptying out categories, not necessarily recategorizing articles to other, different categories but just removing all of the contents of a category so that it gets tagged for speedy deletion. I regularly review Wikipedia:Database reports/Empty categories and other tools we use to locate empty categories and I see you emptying categories quite a lot. I wouldn't be posting this note if it just happened once in a while, this happens with most editors who focus on editing and discussing categories and categorization. But I'm seeing this happen with dozens of categories over time.

If you want to remove categories that, say, include "West Asia" or "Latin America", I would prefer if you did a bundled nomination at WP:CFD so that policy and precedence can get extablished rather just emptying out a lot of categories. And, to be honest, categories that get deleted CSD C1 can easily be restored at any time while that is not the case for categories that are deleted, merged or renamed through CFD. Any way, despite this note, I'd like to thank you for all of your contributions to the project. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:36, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello! At the moment I am trying to mend things after some reckless editing by User:Oli2000s who created a lot of poorly linked and poorly populated categories, mostly about people by national descent. It can happen that some categories find themselves empty in the process, however that's not an attempt to circumvent a process from my part. The changes I made are not so drastic, despite the number of edits which can be a bit scary when you touch categories. If I feel it necessary to make some changes to the structure and want community opinion then of course I'll submit that to CfD, as I routinely do. Place Clichy (talk) 02:48, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

@Liz: Not sure if you saw the above thread or (e.g.) this edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category%3ACroatian_people_of_Armenian_descent&diff=1207642347&oldid=1206331578 I have asked PC to 1.) not empty categories out of process and also 2.) to undo a controversial edit made during a CfD where another editor has also asked him to undo it and he's refused multiple times. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:34, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:European people of Ukrainian descent

A tag has been placed on Category:European people of Ukrainian descent indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:01, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:South American people of Ukrainian descent

A tag has been placed on Category:South American people of Ukrainian descent indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:02, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:North American people of Ukrainian descent

A tag has been placed on Category:North American people of Ukrainian descent indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and removing the speedy deletion tag. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:02, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

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CfD nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 February 23 § Category:Anglican cathedrals by country

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CfD nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 February 23 § Category:Eastern Catholic cathedrals by country

A category or categories you have created have been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 February 23 § Category:Eastern Catholic cathedrals by country on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. –Aidan721 (talk) 02:36, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

CfD nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 February 23 § Category:Roman Catholic cathedrals

A category or categories you have created have been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 February 23 § Category:Roman Catholic cathedrals on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. –Aidan721 (talk) 02:52, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Category:Roman Catholic church buildings in Îles des Saintes has been nominated for merging

Category:Roman Catholic church buildings in Îles des Saintes has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether it complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. –Aidan721 (talk) 03:03, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

CfD nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 February 23 § Category:Lutheran cathedrals in Greenland

A category or categories you have created have been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 February 23 § Category:Lutheran cathedrals in Greenland on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. –Aidan721 (talk) 03:27, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

CfD nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 February 23 § Jesuit schools in Foo

A category or categories you have created have been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 February 23 § Jesuit schools in Foo on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. –Aidan721 (talk) 16:11, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Category:Lutheran cathedrals by country has been nominated for deletion

Category:Lutheran cathedrals by country has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether it complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:54, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Durastop_certification_label.png&diff=next&oldid=476807014

Good catch! Achim Hering (talk) 18:48, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

CfD nomination at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 October 16 § Category:Defunct airlines of Réunion

A category or categories you have created have been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 October 16 § Category:Defunct airlines of Réunion on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. HouseBlaster (talk • he/they) 23:12, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

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