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About Wurtz Homestead "north of Ford". (Message contains content copied from that article)

Hi MBW,
The article says this NRHP place is "2 miles north of Ford, Montana in the Flathead National Forest..."
I can't find any mention of a locality in Montana called "Ford".
I initially thought it might have been a county in MT (see: Ford County, Illinois and Ford County, Kansas). "Ford County, Montana" clearly won't be added to the Ford County disambiguation page any time soon.
Later on, no luck searching for pretty much anything "Ford + Montana" other than Red Dead Redemption fan wikis and used car lots in Billings.
It would appear to me that there might quite possibly be no town, populated place, or otherwise named locality whatsoever called "Ford" in Montana.
Your thoughts about this? --Shirt58 (talk) 10:41, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Shirt58 page stalker here. Pulling up the NRHP listing says exactly that "2 miles north of Ford" and gives a site location near Polebridge with a zip code of 59928. Typing in "Ford, Montana 59928" to a search results in a map pinpointing the location: [1], but I am unable to find other information about the place. SusunW (talk) 22:34, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps [2] is/was a ranger station. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:14, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

There are some obscure things like abandoned ghost towns and old railroad stops scattered here and there. Polebridge is your best bet for the article... Good find on the "Ford cabin." That's about all I can tell you also. Montanabw^(talk) 23:29, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you all for this discussion. I'll look it up. More generally, it might be asserted that I greedily look around for article red-links to create, like a seagull looking for picnic-ers' abandoned hot chips on St Kilda Beach. And I must admit that this assertion is pretty much entirely correct. Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 12:26, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

J.W. Harris archive links

On J.W. Harris (bull rider) an editor there ran the IA Bot to add archive links to all of the references on the article. I have run into this once before. It seems the editors who do this are extremely stubborn about it, even though they won't be the ones stewarding this page. I wrote a lengthy argument regarding why this is actually not a good idea on Charmayne James talk page, mainly because the IA Bot makes mistakes and then after the archive links are added, it is actually harder to maintain and broken links. And not all of the archive links work, for many reasons. Any, the main point is that the addition of these links are not Wikipedia content or policy, so who should rule as to whether they stay or go. Also, I could point out the IA Bot noticeboard, which lists the bot's errors. Harris is in a DYK prep 6 queue, but the editor said that didn't matter when I pointed out he shouldn't make large edits while in DYK. I can't revert again, that would be the third one. Who do I contact next in the process? Do I have a leg to stand on? I'm not even completely done with the article. I hate these archive links, they look awful on the page and they awful to work with as citations. Any help appreciated, thanks. dawnleelynn^(talk) 17:01, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Ah. Dang bots and some of their operators! We love bots, we hate bots! In a perfect world, we'd add the "live" URL to the Wayback archive and then do the archive link ourselves. But it's a pain in the ass. I'll go take a look at the article and comment accordingly (though I don't have time today to fix all the bot edits if they insist on this again and again) I will ask all my talkpage stalkers (pinging especially Atsme and Bri who have familiarity with the general topic) to pop over and maybe help. Montanabw^(talk) 17:09, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Every single archive bar ref 21 checks out. Some time out but refreshing usually returns the right page. So you can restore to the version I created and simply replace the archiveurl for ref 21 (Bushwacker handles Harris in Bismarck) with

this link and the archivedate is June 17, 2014. That should save you some time. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:06, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

With how big Wikipedia is, how do you all know each other. But seriously, does anyone know where there is any policy regarding the use of third-party content and tools? For future reference. Thanks! dawnleelynn^(talk) 20:10, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't but IABot is WMF-based. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:12, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

OK, was ref 21 that Salt Lake Tribune article? That was a weird one... I'll go finish it up here in a bit.

IN the case of TRM and me, I think it was the GA cup and The Boat Race series, wasn't it? Or maybe just my occasional runs at trying to help at DYK. Anyway, over 11 years (almost 12 soon!) a lot of us cross paths. Montanabw^(talk) 20:36, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Boat Race was our finest hour in my opinion. Your relentlessly good reviews resulting in something like a total of over 160 GAs on the same topic. Legendary. One of these days I'll fix up the main article and go for a good topic, probably the largest ever, but time for that keeps eluding me. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:45, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Heck I can't get a comment in crosswise. Ok, the main page says it is: "InternetArchiveBot is powerful PHP, framework independent, OAuth bot designed primarily for use for WMF Wikis, per the request of the global communities, by Cyberpower678." Then from this page [3] I clicked the Terms of Service link [4] which lead to the Terms of Use here, [5]. Note, specifically, the bit about third-party websites and resources.

Third-party Websites and Resources

You are solely responsible for your use of any third-party websites or resources. Although the Projects contain links to third-party websites and resources, we do not endorse and are not responsible or liable for their availability, accuracy, or the related content, products, or services (including, without limitation, any viruses or other disabling features), nor do we have any obligation to monitor such third-party content." Again, what I said about the onus for use falls on the user when it is third-party tools or content.dawnleelynn^(talk) 20:46, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

No-one disagreed, but the point that the WMF have seen fit to link to the "bot" from every history page of 6 million articles indicates they believe it has some kind of pedigree. Indeed, in this case, it got 43 out of 44 archive links bang on. That's not bad at all. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:52, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

I would send a message to the bot operators or maybe post at the village pump that there is a small error rate in the bot... they should tweak the algorithm a bit more. There are fewer errors than there used to be, but there still is the need for manual checks. I am of mixed feelings about the automatic use of archive links because it's a pain in the butt to do them all as one is writing, but given what I've seen on some of the articles I edited 10 years ago where the links are dead and Wayback didn't archive them (or others that disappeared behind a paywall), I do see the value for those, but again, maybe just running the bot on the older ones might be more effective than on new articles? I don't know... but you two are both wikipedians that I like to see editing, so is it OK if I declare a kumbayah moment here and agree that at least there are no bad links now 'cause I fixed the bad one? Montanabw^(talk) 20:58, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

I have no data on how you checked the links, so I can't speak to the links being accurate or not. Again you refer to the bot being on the history page as being a recommendation for this particular use of it being used in every article. That's that not a valid inference. The history page seems more like a recommendation for fixing links. It should be linked on the main article page if its being touted for being used for references there. Anyway, its reputation has been gained for fixing links which is 99% of its current use. I have seen how it has performed on some other articles and tested the links myself, so I'm not just making up the issues. I gave examples. And, you keep pretending that the issues I documented about the future issues it causes do not exist. It's so easy for drive-by editors to add content to an article and then leave the fallout for other editors to handle. And yes, I do get a chance to "complete" my article. I quoted once before the policy that says I can provide an article that is not quite complete to DYK. See WP:DYKNOT". Okay, edit conflict. dawnleelynn^(talk) 21:15, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Don't know what TRM was doing, but I was manually going through them one by one to verify that the content was identical, then I got sidetracked by some work stuff. So once TRM said he checked them, I just did a revert on the rest and then fixed the Bullwhacker link. If there are any more, I can also work to fix those. I guess my take on this one is that if DYK fashion is to use archivelinks this month, then it is one of those "I don't agree, but what the heck, I'll do it (with a big, martyred sigh...), and then if they change their minds next month, I'll do that too (with a big martyred sigh). (I'm trying to inject some humor here) {{tbdb}} I personally think that running archive links at the DYK level is a bit premature, as more links will be added as the article is further expanded, particularly if its main page appearance at DYK encourages additional content and such. So, IMHO, the better policy might be for the bot to be run when the article concludes its time in the sun rather than before... in a perfect world, the automated bot could just run about 30 days out, which should get most news links before they disappear behind a paywall, or whatever. But I also have to admit that for an older article that has 150 or 200 sources, the bot is going to be a godsend. Montanabw^(talk) 21:26, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

I clicked on all 44 archive links and checked they sent me to a page with the same title as the title in the ref. One didn't, 43 did. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:28, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

I would love to say that I can assume you also made sure that the content was there, both text and images, but you didn't say that. Whoever checks the links needs to do more than check the title matches. Web sites are often dynamic these days with loading both text and images and archive sites can't always handle them. The PBRnow.com archives only work about half the time, for instance when you try to use theirs. Cheyenne Frontier Days pages are partly delivered dynamically and not all pages work in the archive. So sometimes, when clicking an archive, all you is get random holes and image placeholders. My information remains in Charmayne James talk page as well when I did discovery on the user and fallout of using these. Also, is it customary to be making changes when an article is in a prep queue?dawnleelynn^(talk) 21:56, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Nobody really does (or should) care if an article is in a DYK queue. It's irrelevant as the article is out there and can be modified (or even radically transformed) in the meantime. Nothing does (or should) stop that. Don't get sucked into the idea that because it's getting ready for DYK, it remains frozen in time. Far from it, when it gets on that conveyer belt for main page inclusion, it'll get plenty of scrutiny (hence my "intrusion") and plenty more once it's on the main page. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:19, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

It's special if TRM does it... The problem with placeholder stuff is that you are right -- the images don't always get archived by wayback and I'm not sure why. Any answers to that one? Montanabw^(talk) 22:27, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Well sure, everything I do is special, that's why I have so many fans. Image archive? That's just the way it goes. I imagine in the early days when storage space was limited, images would be ditched, but now it's all good. Yeah! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:31, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Well excuse me, if a huge mistake was made in it right before it went out in the main page is not a thing, that's the only thing I was thinking about. But no we are all perfect. I am not talking the things you mention, stopping them just because I don't want, etc., not a true assumption of what I meant. And wasn't talking about those who work DYK queues. dawnleelynn^(talk) 22:34, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Images are now many times handled programmatically on web sites, that's often when archives can't handle them. They can't capture the programming tools.dawnleelynn^(talk) 22:34, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

No, because archives are designed to take "snapshots", so the programmatic nature of images being present (or not) is irrelevant. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:42, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Has this sunk in yet: "You are solely responsible for your use of any third-party websites or resources."? When you use the IABot, you are responsible for its use. That means when you run it on an article well, ok, that's pretty easy to accept like when you are fixing broken links. But when you use it to change all of the references in an article, that's a much bigger responsibility. Your responsibility does not end after you run the script if that's what you want to call it. The tool is not meant to be used by a single person to add to 100's of articles and then transfer the responsibility for them to other editors. You are solely responsible the terms say. However much there might be some leeway since there are editors who run it on a few articles to fix broken links and then post messages to talk pages asking people to verify them (transferring verification elsewhere) But it's a whole different ballpark when up to 100's of links need to be verified. I believe some research needs to be done on the exact responsibility of the use of this tool in this manner, and I'm going to contact the tool's owner. dawnleelynn^(talk) 23:06, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Watch archive.is run sometime and you will see it does a heck of a lot more than take a "snapshot". I can browse the www.pbrnow.com website in the Wayback Machine and visit different parts of it. They are saving an entire web site if they can. A snapshot of the entire web site as it exists at that moment in time. So, yes it's trying to capture all of that web site. I just saved www.pbr.com [6] and it saved application/javascript.com file for one example. Hey, that's an applet. Wow, I can visit many pages not just the home page. But the Register and Sign in buttons don't work. Hmm. Or the Media Guide link. If some or all of a web site doesn't function without its programming outside of an archive, why would function inside the archive. It's not taking pictures of the web site, it's trying to capture the whole web site. Sometimes things are not able to be captured into an archive and you get this: [7].

Interesting. I guess further proof that both a) The internet is forever and b) even on the internet, nothing is forever. (I often tell my clients that the best way to avoid embarrassment on Facebook is not to post the photo of them playing "beer pong" in the first place, but when I try to subpoena the photo of the person on the other side playing beer pong (not my case), suddenly it's gone from the server and unrecoverable. Sigh...) Montanabw^(talk) 23:15, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Well, I just recalled I only mentioned capturing whole web sites and not saving just one page and I had to be honest and mention both. But it does not change the fact that saving a snapshot of a page means that programmatic elements are no longer involved. If a page is serving up elements during the time it displays a page, then it is definitely possible that, depending on how it is done, there can sometimes be issues in capturing it. And I have an example right here that is fresh. A page on Cheyenne Frontier Days web site. The Frontier Nights page does not display the pictures for each entertainer, just a tiny click image picture: [8] here for the Wayback Machine. But hey! the archive.is site was able to capture the pictures although it took a long time and it captured alot of program files, especially javascript files. However, with the IA Bot, there is no room for the archive.is method of archiving. But sometimes it does work when the other one won't. Or, sometimes, it has been used to capture an archive and the Wayback Machine has not. At any rate, the Wayback Capture is a fail for this page. dawnleelynn^(talk) 06:26, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: I found this post by the IA Bot creator when searching the boards regarding what they call "adding archive links to live links" and thought everyone who stalks the page should know. It reinforces what I have been saying about using the bot and being responsible for the edits it makes. Nobody has to take my word for it. The link is here: [9]

"Actually only rescuing dead links is the default behavior. That behavior you linked in the diff has to be requested by the user by checking a checkbox. The checkbox option clearly states that it's optional. As the tool interface's ToS states, edits made on behalf of the user, is the responsibility of the user.—CYBERPOWER (Around) 19:04, 17 September 2017 (UTC)"

I have found several posts in a couple different boards, and the ultimate consensus appears to be about 50/50 in favor of the feature or not. Either way, the TOS is pretty clear. It is not meant to be used in a crusade to add archive links to live links in as many articles as possible. Can an editor really take care of 100s of articles responsibly? Any user using the bot for this feature should consider carefully the implications of using it in more articles than can be verified and/or stewarded or in a drive-by fashion. If an editor wants to use this feature on an article, they must be willing, at the least, to verify those archive links. And consider the burden of stewarding them depending on the circumstances. dawnleelynn^(talk) 17:36, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Carroll Van West

Hi. You may be interested in Carroll Van West!Zigzig20s (talk) 04:43, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Robert M. Miller

Hi Montanabw. The material that I contested on the page for Robert M. Miller has now been tagged "citation needed" for over a year. I still believe firmly that it is in violation of WP:BLPNAME and WP:DATED. I think that a year is more than sufficient time to wait for something to be cited on the biography of a living person and I am uncomfortable with that information remaining on the page any longer. Do you still have an objection to its removal until a source is provided? Canadian Paul 17:00, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

The name of his wife? Is it wrong? Take it to the article talkpage so all who care can weigh in. Montanabw^(talk) 17:03, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Staging

Last November 17 at 18:11 you gave me some sage advice about the above subject. In the last few days I have managed to adjust these pages though I won't say I've finished. I'd be very grateful if you would cast an eye over them and let me know of my errors and omissions, large and small. The articles are: Stage station, Postilion, Post chaise, (ex Chaise) and Post house (historical building). I still have quite a bit to add to Stage Station on England and Europe and maybe US too. Best regards, Eddaido (talk) 10:43, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Made some comments on the article talkpages. Mostly just indicate the phrases are UK and if there is a USA equivalent, put that in the lead and create appropriate redirects the way we did for stuff like livestock crush and cattle grid (where the Aussies got to it first and won the name race! LOL!). Montanabw^(talk) 17:11, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Two nations divided by one language

In British English to drive any living being is to force it away from you by fright or violence. Harnessing a horse and putting it between shafts followed by driving it could be nasty for you and the horse. Yes, there is a corresponding meaning in BE but you're not driving the animal just driving the vehicle it is drawing along. Hence your Driving (horse) becomes (carriage) driving. Should this be covered somehow? Eddaido (talk) 09:37, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

What do you do with cars? We drive them too. LOL! In the USA, "driving" includes harness racing and a sulky is clearly not a carriage. Carriage driving is a sport or what conveys the Queen to Parliament. So... want to take this to the article talkpage and discuss further? Montanabw^(talk) 17:05, 16 March 2018 (UTC) (Pinging Eddaido Montanabw^(talk) 21:34, 16 March 2018 (UTC) )

Haven't thought of a car as a living being. We don't ride in cars (like some folks do), we do that on horses, usually with a saddle. Carriages carry things, principally passengers, maybe they carry someone behind a horse like - a sulky? If a coach is a carriage it is a very heavy one. While I'm here a waggon or wagon is not a carriage, its for freight not passengers yet some contributors classify stagecoaches as wagons - do you see this as correct?

I'm not out to change the world, just review some of the misunderstandings and maybe they are all caused by me being thickheaded — and maybe not! The ping(s?) didn't work. I just came back here for a look. Off now to look at your contributions. Best, Eddaido (talk) 22:14, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

There is DEFINITELY a separation by a common language! LOL! and you folks refer to the trunk of a car as a "boot" which is what we put on our feet... So... what is your verb for the actions of the person behind the wheel of the car and what is your verb for what the passenger is (supposed to be) doing in the car—if not "driving" and "riding?" LOL! Maybe I need some more Brits over here to weigh in, I am not hopelessly confused! (smile) RexxS, Tigerboy1966... others? Montanabw^(talk) 23:01, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Normally, in the UK we would be riding horses (on a saddle) and driving cars. However, in the case of horse-and-carriage (or pony-and-trap), we definitely drive. Here's the schule for the 2017 Royal Windsor Horse Show. Page 32, et seq, gives the "driving classes": Driving; Obstacle Driving; and Coaching Marathon (which includes the glorious description "Teams of four horses, to be driven to a Coach carrying not less than six persons, driver, servants and representatives of the show included." Note that idiosyncratic use of the preposition in "driven to a Coach" . --RexxS (talk) 23:14, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

You wouldn't be driving the vehicle and not the horse(s)? See above. And why can I never find a photo of mules towing a stagecoach (like some writers claim). Do horses have a much better performance than mules? Mules just cheaper? Why make mules? Expert(s) please. Eddaido (talk) 23:36, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

You would be driving the horses and the coach. They are a single entity in that context. For example: "I could drive a coach-and-horses through that argument". Note the singular "a". Or perhaps you've not heard that phrase before? MontanBW can explain why horses are preferred to mules for stagecoaches (something to do with speed and endurance vs strength, I guess). She's the expert. --RexxS (talk) 00:10, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

All agreed except that initially you have mistakenly reversed the order from coach and horses to horses (nah!) and then coach :-). Eddaido (talk) 00:16, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

BrE also has "driving a coach and four". It's as if the horses were the engine and the coach was the chassis. You would go for a "ride" in a car if you were the passenger. Towards the end of a race a horse might be "driven out" by the jockey. Of course no true Englishman drives a car: he is driven by his chauffeur. Tigerboy1966  06:57, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Which option is putting the cart before the horse, that's what I want to know! (LOL) Montanabw^(talk) 17:16, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

It is not a new experience to find me to be out of date. I see Russia Turkey and Syria are meeting in a 'stan to discuss their war and behind them (for tv viewers?) all the signs were in English and no doubt, if it could be established, American English ;-). A passenger in a car is just that, a passenger, travelling by car. Riding is for horses (and bikes / motorbikes). PS Concord coaches I see have a boot at each end. "Each stagecoach passenger was allowed a maximum of twenty-five pounds of baggage, which rode in a large rear pouch called a boot. The U.S. mail typically rode in the front or rear boot, although, as Mark Twin recalled . . ." Who was Mark Twin! Regards, Eddaido (talk) 23:30, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Eating popcorn and watching the show. OK, so, mules. Eddaido, the concept was to —ideally— get the best traits of each subspecies by combining the agility of the horse with the hardiness of the donkey, thus creating the perfect pack animal, a strong and durable working animal, and a generally less excitable beast for farm work and very practical riding. But mules were used for, as an example, freight hauling, but not stylish carriage-pulling because, in a nutshell, they generally inherited the gaits of the donkey side... although we do have such thing as mule racing, it's not that they can't, it's that they ought not... what is the adage? Not surprising that it's not done well, but that it's done at all? Montanabw^(talk) 22:38, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Stagecoach stations v. Stagecoach stops

I have just become aware WP has two categories: Category:Stagecoach stations in the United States and Category:Stagecoach stops in the United States. First a stage station is a US phenomenon (I think known as post or relay elsewhere). Second, is a stage stop different? You have suggested they are the same in your amendment to Stage station but is it possible that some stops (to pick-up / put-down passengers) are not stage stations because they have no fresh horses etc. Or are they truly different US names for the same thing? Should the two categories (stations and stops) be merged? Are you getting tired of questions of no special interest to you? Please say. Eddaido (talk) 01:45, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Not tired in the least; I'm having fun looking at this. I probably would have to dig a bit into the history of the Old West to give you a definitive answer, which I don't really have time to do now, but my initial thought is that they are basically the same, just regional differences in language (just as in some parts of the USA a carbonated beverage is "soda", other places, it's "pop" or even "soda pop" (except in Texas where all carbonated beverages are "coke," including Pepsi and 7-Up). For example, Kimball Stage Stop was a "station." (see more at Overland Trail and here). In my part of the country, a stage stop had food and drink for weary travelers, stables for horses, etc. (Some of the old ones evolved into modern businesses but keep "Stage Stop" in their business name. Examples: [10], [11], [12], [13]) There is also a multi-volume Dictionary of American Regional English that is put out by Harvard University press and is a gold mine for this stuff. Montanabw^(talk) 23:36, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining so neatly about the mules. Its pretty clear there is no useful difference between the stage stations and stage stops. I've found and recorded that in Britain the equivalents were first organised by the owners of the inns. Who organised them in the US West? The accommodation and the stops for new horses? Was it just left to enterprising people to see an opportunity or were there government contracts for mail services that provided the money to build and provide the facilities and the accommodation. In Britain stagecoach routes were set up on long established roads with at least some form of accommodation and other requirements readily available. How did the US Mail and Pony Express and the stagecoach lines get their system up and running in, for practical purposes empty countryside / desert? Where should i look for this information (you are so good at finding stuff). I'm sorry I didn't get back here sooner. I'm a bit distracted right now but things should clear in the next few days. Eddaido (talk) 09:10, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Indeed, I think that the categories can probably be merged. In general, it's safe to say that then (and even now, actually) there was a public-private partnership. As for structure, it's America, you think anything involving "carving civilization out of untracked wilderness" was organized? We didn't even have a transcontinental railroad until after our Civil War. (see Golden spike) LOL! Actually, a lot depends on which era in history and which region of the country you are talking about. What I know about all this is mostly confined to practice in the Old West, you'd have to do research on what they did for mail delivery in the Eastern USA. The east coast was settled 100-200 years earlier than the west. Pre-1776, the Americans would have tried, mostly, to recreate a British model the best they could, given there were originally NO roads. Later, it would have been a hybrid system based on "whatever works" — but with Benjamin Franklin playing a major role in the creation of the United States Postal Service. I am not sure the timeline on developing the transportation structure of eastern public roads, and private toll roads, (plus publicly-funded canals in some areas) nor how they handled mail delivery there. Perhaps ask WP History people know history of the eastern USA, such as Wehwalt. Out West, things like mail delivery would have been contracted by the government first to the steamboat companies and pack-mule freighters (private), then to the railroads and stage companies (also private, sometimes descendants of the same families), or whomever ("hey, fur trapper, I hear you are heading back out to the trading post in Mandan country, can you take these letters to the rendezvous?"). But, as a rule, getting the mail through really mattered! Local post offices would be government-run (or at least contracted to government specs). (see also Pony express, which actually lasted only 18 months, as railroads—even if not yet fully transcontinental— began to take up the slack). OK, I'm going on and on here, hope this helps. Montanabw^(talk) 17:51, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

By chance, one of the books I am currently reading is a British author's history [14] part of which goes on at length about the trail(s) between the Mississippi and West Coast - so yes privately funded/organized, but yes, a government contract was at times involved (and one good place to set up corrals/stores, etc., was at and near US forts). Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:01, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Autopatrol right - Thank you!

I recently reached the creation of 25 articles and requested the autopatrol right this morning. Alex Shih approved it and said, "From a quick look, I think most of your creations are well written, and also receives attention from other experienced editors regularly (GA works like Charmayne James alone is sufficient in my opinion)." So that is obviously you for both helping me with most of my articles, including Charmayne James. So thanks and a big hug. I know you help so many people you deserve some recognition. dawnleelynn^(talk) 18:39, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Iroquois Steeplechase

Hello. Not sure if you're able to expand this with a referenced list of the winners/owners please?Zigzig20s (talk) 09:00, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Zigzig20s, post that to the talkpage of WikiProject horse racing. There are folks there who all but specialize in that sort of thing, including at least one fan of Jump racing! Montanabw^(talk) 17:07, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

OK.Zigzig20s (talk) 20:37, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Signppost

I have submitted an article for Signpost's next issue. I don't really know who is responsible for Signpost these days, but I thought you'd like to know and might like to copy edit it. Best, Chris Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:14, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Try Bri -- I'm technically still affiliated with the signpost, but haven't worked on it directly for a few months now... Montanabw^(talk) 18:48, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

It's moot unless we can get the current issue published. I'm getting just a wee bit frustrated; in retrospect we should have had backups for publishing set up before, instead of single point of failure. ☆ Bri (talk) 18:53, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Single point of failure? That's happened before, a couple of times, actually. Montanabw^(talk) 21:39, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

I probably should be more careful with my language; single point of failure is an engineering term; not meant to give any offense to any individual. What I should have said is that we should have a diversity of capabilities amongst the Signpost editing team. And more of them. How this is actually accomplished, TBD... ☆ Bri (talk) 01:19, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Bri, you might wish to comment at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Death_knell_sounding_for_Signpost?_Proposals_required. In this respect I've also submitted a further article as an op-ed appealing for help with the Signpost. I'm not technically competent to manage the publishing tools, but now that ACTRIAL is over bar the shouting, I would have more time on my hands to possisbly come in as a regular op-ed contributor on some topic or another. Cheers, Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:35, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

The Signpost

Hi. The Signpost has now been published after a long delay. There are some articles in it that may particulalry interest you. Don't hesitate to contribute to the comments sections. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:40, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Awesome, Kudpung, good to see you writing there! Montanabw^(talk) 00:36, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

First Edit Day

I was just floating around, from place to place, and I noticed that it was your first edit day, and I just wanted to say, Great job! and keep up the good work. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:39, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Happy First Edit Day, Montanabw, What a coincidence. I was also floating around, doin' something else, and happened to notice that today was your first edit day. Thanks for staying on board the Goodship Wikipedia. Have a great day! ―Buster7 ☎ 14:27, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

Thanks for getting back to me on Spendthrift farms, although it took me 3 years to reply LOL

ReginaldTQ (talk) 20:21, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Marjorie Bear Don't Walk

I'm looking for a source, which maybe you can help with? Schaffer, Rachel. “Marjorie Bear Don’t Walk and Agnes Crow Interviews” in Feats and Faces: Chronicles of 26 Billings Women, with Photographs. Billings: Association of American University Women, Billings Branch, 1994. (See also, American Association of University Women, Montana Division records, 1980-2002. A6:2-5; A6:2-2; A0:4-2. The links given here [15] don't work. SusunW (talk) 15:43, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm not getting it to come up, either. That said, you can probably email the Montana Historical Society research center directly and if they have a URL link, they can shoot that to you. Sometimes if they have a scan in an obscure location, they can email stuff to you as well (I've had them do so for NRHP stuff). If not, I do get over there from time to time and could probably scan something that's hardcopy if they have it. Montanabw^(talk) 20:48, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Cockrill rancher in Montana

Hello. Would you be interested in researching a rancher called Cockrill in Montana please? It may have been Mark Sterling Cockrill or one of his sons/nephews. The family came from Tennessee. I am wondering if the Cockrill family played a significant role in Montana after Tennessee--did any of them serve in the state house/senate for example?Zigzig20s (talk) 16:39, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Here's a match for Mark S. Cockrill in Great Falls, Montana for example--a banker with the First National Bank (of Great Falls?).Zigzig20s (talk) 16:40, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

More: died in 1948. He is described as a pioneer ranchman.Zigzig20s (talk) 16:58, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

On FindaGrave. His father may be notable too. Anyway, let me know if you're interested. He may be connected to the fountain.Zigzig20s (talk) 17:00, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm not finding any more than you have. Lot of these old pioneers donated money for things that reminded them of their roots. Probably best guess is searching old Helena Independent Record news stories on the fountain itself for who donated $$ for it. Also, there's an amateur historian's website called "Helena as she was" that is incredibly extensive and generally reliable, but the owner of the site isn't as good about attributing his sources as he could be. (he does answer email,though and can probably tell you where stuff came from) http://helenahistory.org Kind of falls in a gray area as far as WP:RS because it is curated and maintained, and it's not a wiki, but it's a (very dedicated) one-man show. The folks at the historical society kind of use him like we use wiki-- for hints and overview, clues to other sources. I'd probably use it here in a pinch if I had to. Montanabw^(talk) 18:57, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. I am mostly interested in finding out if he owned a large ranch in Montana, and why he moved there. I've found the immigrant: John Cockrill (House of Burgesses).Zigzig20s (talk) 23:14, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

If there's anything findable, it will be here and here. If you get a hit but no digital content, email me, I might be able to find it for you. Montanabw^(talk) 05:08, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Smith River pics

Say, do you know of anyone who has floated the Smith River State Recreational Waterway?? Taken pics of the river in summer, and of campgrounds, and the put-in site, and the take-out site? If I had more money, I'd fly a frakkin' drone down that river just to get photos! But I'm poor, don't own a drone, and would never do something as illegal (remember that, NSA, if you're listening). - Tim1965 (talk) 15:29, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Heh, try Flickr or USFS pages. To get a permit to float the Smith, one has to have better luck than a lottery win, I think. A float permit is a bigger deal than getting the license draw for a wolf or a mountain goat. I might be able to put out a call on facebook, but good luck! (So you are saying you have photos of both ends but not the middle?) Montanabw^(talk) 20:09, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Flickr has proved useless, as everyone fully copyrights their images. I'll try USFS. The only pics I can find are already in use on the page. They aren't very good, and only show it in winter. - Tim1965 (talk) 14:41, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Everyone who isn't selling their photos is too busy fishing to take photos, maybe.Montanabw^(talk) 21:10, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

An interesting Montanan

Started Draft:Merle Egan today. Thought you might be interested. ☆ Bri (talk) 01:35, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Moved to Merle Egan Anderson ☆ Bri (talk) 20:07, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Please Watch my Page I just Submitted for Review

Hello,

I was part of the Wikipedia Edit-a-thon at the Montana State University Heathcote classroom in the Renne Library on campus. I just submitted my article entitled Ling Chun for review. Please patrol my my article to make sure it's all good. Thank you! Jennanenah (talk) 22:37, 20 April 2018 (UTC) Jennanenah (talk) 22:37, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Hi Jennanenah, remember what I said about not submitting articles for review? Whoops! But I'll check on it for you, no worries. Montanabw^(talk) 02:35, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Neck for days

Had a giggle when I ran into this and thought you might like it too. --Pitke (talk) 19:22, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Proof the grass is always greener on the other side! LOL!! Montanabw^(talk) 02:48, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Event coordinator

Hey Montanabw, I just wanted to let you know I've switched the account creator permission on this account to event coordinator, a new user group that allows people involved with outreach to confirm new users and not be subject to the rate limits on account creation, but doesn't contain the anti-spoofing override or blacklist override features of account creator. If you have any questions, let me know. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:31, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

@TonyBallioni:, the addition of confirmed access is cool and this sounds like a nice tool to have. That said, I've had the account creator right since 2014. Any reason that I cannot keep it as well? I generally am the "Wikipedian" at events coordinated by others, and sometimes am in the position of having to clean up small errors made by others prior to the event, so I just want to be sure that I have stronger tools where needed. Montanabw^(talk) 17:41, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi M. I hope you are well. FYI pings still can't be "fixed" in the way you did with your last edit so let me add one here @TonyBallioni: to make sure TB gets a chance to reply to your post. Best regards to you both. MarnetteD|Talk 17:45, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

The user rights log notes that you weren’t going to be using it to override the blacklist or anti-spoof filters? Do you need to do that? This flag still allows you to create as many accounts as needed. We’re just switching people who are using it only for events and who aren’t a part of ACC over to the event coordinator group since the ability to override the blacklist/anti-spoof features doesn’t usually come up at events. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:07, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

I haven't needed to, but are there are specific problem sites that might be an issue at a public event, say at a small library or college venue (where there could also have been trolls that got rangeblocked?) Montanabw^(talk) 18:25, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Montanabw - If an IP address or range is blocked and with the option set to disallow account creation, no users, no accounts, nobody, zip, zilch, nada will be able to create accounts while they are doing so from behind that blocked IP - this applies to all users and accounts and regardless of the user rights they have - including administrators and stewards. The MediaWiki software does not examine your user rights at all in this situation; it will first check to see if you're trying to do so behind a blocked IP with the option set, and it will stop right then and there and disallow your from being able to proceed. ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:42, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

National Institute on Money in State Politics

Please see Talk:National Institute on Money in State Politics regarding their merger and name change in July. 174.197.17.197 (talk) 10:36, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Plagiarism of my copy written article on Stirrups and Stirrup Safety

Sir,

We have had discussions in the past. I am the inventor of MDC Stirrups. It has been brought to my attention that your page includes direct quotes from my copy written article on Stirrups and Stirrup Safety. Exact words and phrases are copied from my published article including, but not limited to 'closing door effect'.

One reason riders can become hung up is due to improper stirrup sizing. If the stirrup is too large, the foot can go through the stirrup opening and be caught. If the stirrup is too small, the foot can become trapped more easily as the foot cannot free itself. The main reason for a rider to become hung up in the irons is due to the 'closing door effect' of a lost stirrup trying to return to lie flat against the side of the horse. When the rider falls and the stirrup is free, it tends to return to its home position flat against the horse's side. As the stirrup returns to the horse, the opening for the foot gets smaller and smaller and can catch a falling rider's boot in that smaller opening

If you continue to use the information, I would appreciate a reference to my protected article.

MDC Stirrups are a patented name brand 'type' of stirrup. No other stirrup can use that name, MDC Stirrups, nor any of the patented aspects of our products. The name MDC Stirrups is as individual as the Peacock Stirrup or the Icelandic Stirrup and should be considered in any modern discussion of stirrup invention and design.

I look forward to being included in the footnotes.

Martin D. Cohen MDC Corporation MDC Stirrups www.mdcstirrups.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:EF90:4400:5980:5381:C8ED:287B (talk) 23:02, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Looks like someone did some extensive editing on the article, which I have reverted until the sourcing can be reviewed for copyvio. That said, the "closing door effect" is a widely known concept that you did not invent, but I will rephrase that section to more general language. Also, as discussed previously (several years ago), Wikipedia's WP:NOADS and No original research policies, prohibit us from giving you free advertising by citing to your blog or commercial site. Montanabw^(talk) 16:40, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Thank you ...

... for improving article quality in June! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:16, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Article Rescue

Hi, I recently joined the Article Rescue Squad to restore deleted articles, and I see you are also a member. I have some articles that need a bit of a upgrade and I want to know if you will work on them to allow them to move into article space.

Here are the articles I need you to work on (add references and maybe copy edit)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Susan_Mikula

JC7V7DC5768 (talk) 16:47, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi JC7V7DC5768. Your article topic looks notable to me, but I'm a little too busy in real life to help you out right now. I think that you could go and post at the Women in Red page and see if the folks active there can help you. I will ping Megalibrarygirl, who is a member, and she might be able to find you some other helpers! Montanabw^(talk) 20:31, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. I'll do so JC7V7DC5768 (talk) 20:34, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

JC7V7DC5768 I'm on it! :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 20:36, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

2018 Montana wildfires

FYI I just started 2018 Montana wildfires. There are only two fires listed as of yet. Maybe you know of some more. Cheers! ☆ Bri (talk) 18:05, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Brilliant! - Framing by "crowd on the day balloon was deployed"

Ref.: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Files_for_discussion/2018_July_23
It only slightly annoys me that I didn't think of doing that twist myself first ;-)

Fun fact: That manoeuvre was notably tried in 2010, when the EU was out-phasing the incandescent light bulb, on grounds of it being an energy inefficient light source.
: see e.g. this random short article about it, and the archived pages of the website, e.g. this and that.
-- DexterPointy (talk) 17:22, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

A goat for you!

for improving horse racing related articles. Horse racing is one of my favorite sports

JC7V-constructive zone 22:25, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Writer's Barnstar
	sorry for nominating your article for deletion. here's appreciation for writing it though Redditaddict69 09:40, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Nomination of Robert Kelleher for Deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Robert Kelleher is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted, mostly based on the following guidelines: WP:NPOL

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robert Kelleher until a consensus is reached, based on opinion and logic, not on tally of votes. Any user (including you) may contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines. Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. Please do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Redditaddict69 09:37, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Hey page stalkers, may want to look at this one and comment. Montanabw^(talk) 20:05, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Need a laugh?

Check out the Did you know? section on Portal:Determinism.    — The Transhumanist   02:44, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Black Gold Stakes

Did you have any plans/edits underway for "User:Montanabw/Black Gold Stakes"? Thanks. Stretchrunner (talk) 13:59, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Not really, feel free to play in my sandbox with it if you want to, or whatever you like. I totally forgot it was even in there. Montanabw^(talk) 23:17, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, I created a new Black Gold Stakes. Stretchrunner (talk) 22:46, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you ...

... for improving article quality in August! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:08, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Kathleen Williams

The Kathleen Williams article has undergone some heavy-duty editing by registered and unregistered users. Some of it has been vandalism, but it seems to have been reverted. I don't want to get involved there, because as primary editor on the page in the past I feel like I have a vested interest that may lead to edit-wars. If you or some other Montana WikiProjectians (is that a word?) wish to review, please do so. - Tim1965 (talk) 15:18, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

On it. Montanabw^(talk) 17:27, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Great Falls High School

I was looking at Steve Roth, who was listed there--turns out he's more likely spelled Stephen, and I really can't find anything on him to make him notable. All I got in Google News was press releases. Sorry, Drmies (talk) 00:48, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Not a hill for me to die on. (LOL) But press releases can be used to support GNG. Montanabw^(talk) 01:12, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

👻💀👹🎃

Trick or Treat!!!	Happy Halloween!
	Why are demons and ghouls always together? Because demons are a ghoul's best friend. What happens when you goose a ghost? You get a hand full of sheet. Atsme✍🏻📧 01:02, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Article request, maybe

Wikimedia received a request at OTRS from someone hoping we would write about their horse. As you probably know, OTRS can't quite if you keep up with the volume of inquiries, much less write articles upon request. I did give them a link to your talk page so you might receive an inquiry I'm not a horse person so I don't know whether the horse is notable but I will share that it's not just a run-of-the-mill horse, although the notability may be more solid for the grandparents.--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:05, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Sphilbrick, thanks. If you want to forward any info to me via email, I can also look at it. We do have WP:NHORSERACING for those horses and there is an equestrianism guideline for other sport horses at WP:NEQUESTRIAN. That might help. But yeah, no matter how many famous ancestors, "DocLenaDeckBarSkippyChicOChex" usually doesn't meet GNG. Montanabw^(talk) 19:39, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Montanabw, It's a grandson of Mack Lobell. I've encouraged the individual to reach out to you. S Philbrick(Talk) 19:57, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Sounds good. Given the bloodline, they can also stop by WP:HORSERACING if they want. Montanabw^(talk) 20:16, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Time for stretchy pants

Whad'ya call a turkey on the run? Fast food.	Wishing You A Happy Turkey Day!
	Thanksgiving chuckles... What smells best at a Thanksgiving dinner? Your nose. What did the turkey say to the computer? Google, google, google. 😊🦃 Atsme✍🏻📧 21:13, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Happy Turkey Day!

	Happy Thanksgiving!
	Have a blessed and wonderful Thanksgiving day and make happy memories. dawnleelynn(talk) 17:48, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you ...

... for article quality improvements in October! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:03, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

... and in November! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:21, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

It's already that time of year!!

	Santa Claus is coming to town!
	Hoping all your Christmas wishes come true, and that Santa focuses only on the positives we've done throughout the year!! 😂 Atsme✍🏻📧 23:28, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

FAC Mentorship

Hi, I've been trying to promote Mahavira to FA, but my efforts were not good enough. Recently, I was referred to FAC mentorship program, and hence I am posting this to seek your guidance for the same. Capankajsmilyo^{(Talk | Infobox assistance)} 06:43, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Seasons Greetings

It's the most wonderful time of the year. Wishing you peace and joy this holiday season!

dawnleelynn(talk) 17:11, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Olaf C. Seltzer

There is an interesting painting by Olaf C. Seltzer in the Grand Lodge of Montana Museum and Library in Helena, Montana. Would you be able to take a picture in case if it is copyright-free please? He died in 1957, so I am not sure.Zigzig20s (talk) 11:13, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Do you know the title or any info on its content? I can check to see if I can locate it and if it is publicly accessible. Some of the Masonic buildings are not fully open to the public. Montanabw^(talk) 19:42, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Happy Saturnalia

		Happy Saturnalia
		Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and troll-free. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:03, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Peace Dove Christmas

Peace is a state of balance and understanding in yourself and between others, where respect is gained by the acceptance of differences, tolerance persists, conflicts are resolved through dialog, peoples rights are respected and their voices are heard, and everyone is at their highest point of serenity without social tension.

Happy Holidays. ―Buster7 ☎ 19:50, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Merry Merry

		Happy Christmas!
		Hello Montanabw, Early in A Child's Christmas in Wales the young Dylan and his friend Jim Prothero witness smoke pouring from Jim's home. After the conflagration has been extinguished Dylan writes that Nobody could have had a noisier Christmas Eve. And when the firemen turned off the hose and were standing in the wet, smoky room, Jim's Aunt, Miss. Prothero, came downstairs and peered in at them. Jim and I waited, very quietly, to hear what she would say to them. She said the right thing, always. She looked at the three tall firemen in their shining helmets, standing among the smoke and cinders and dissolving snowballs, and she said, "Would you like anything to read?" My thanks to you for your efforts to keep the 'pedia readable in case the firemen chose one of our articles :-) Best wishes to you and yours and happy editing in 2019. MarnetteD|Talk 03:57, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Yo Ho Ho

ϢereSpielChequers is wishing you Seasons Greetings! Whether you celebrate your hemisphere's Solstice or Christmas, Diwali, Hogmanay, Hanukkah, Lenaia, Festivus or even the Saturnalia, this is a special time of year for almost everyone!

Spread the holiday cheer by adding {{subst:User:WereSpielChequers/Dec18a}}~~~~ to your friends' talk pages.

ϢereSpielChequers 21:40, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year

	Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year
	Hi Montanabw, I wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas and a very Happy and Prosperous New Year, Thanks for all your help and thanks for all your contributions to the 'pedia,    –Davey2010 Merry Christmas / Happy New Year 14:45, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Holiday cheer!

Hi Montanabw: Seasons greetings to you and yours this holiday season, and hope you have a Happy New Year! North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 23:59, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Montanabw!

Happy New Year!

Montanabw,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
Rubbish computer (Talk: Contribs) 15:48, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

   Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

Mann Gulch fire page

Montanabw, What's the deal with the total replacement of the Mann Gulch fire page? And what is the unknown reference "Maclean 2017?" Any ideas? Yankeepapa13 (talk) 02:20, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm on it. Usually total blanking and replacement is either a school project or a vandal, depending on the content. Montanabw^(talk) 16:51, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Montanabw, Did you get any info on this? Yankeepapa13 (talk) 02:38, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

I fixed it. But I'll double check everything. Montanabw^(talk) 02:57, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Oh wait, I looked at Mann Gulch, not Mann Gulch fire. Sigh. OK. Checking again. MacLean is probably Norm MacLean, Young Men and Fire. The classic account. Montanabw^(talk) 02:58, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi MontanaBW, Maclean (2017) is not Norman Maclean whose 1992 book, Young Men and Fire was published posthumously. The Wikipedia page doesn't give the rest of the citation info other than "Maclean (2017)" which I commented on that in the talk page there. I see that you undid CerroFerro's total replacement, and now he has undone your repair. Looks like a Wikiwar, if that's a term.

John Maclean (he spells it with no internal capitals) is Norman's son, also an author who caught my attention with his appearance on PBS' Nova episode titled "Fire Wars." Maclean the younger claimed in that program and in his books that Wag Dodge, the crew chief who survived the fire by igniting an emergency backfire called a survival fire, was levitated two feet off the ground and either held there or shaken like a dog. I communicated with John in 2013 and he said just look at the account given by Wag Dodge. I did. Wag never said that. I collected and digitized a lot of materials on the Mann Gulch Fire, including Wag's written testimony that appeared in two independent publications, so I think I know what I'm talking about. I also diagnosed how the misconception began. Furthermore, I've searched to no avail for any publication by John Maclean in 2017. Yankeepapa13 (talk) 03:54, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Maclean (2017) appears to be just a reprint of the posthumous 1992 book with no added material. CerroFerro is revealing himself to be a hostile entity, calling you "the "Grandmaster" editor" and me a sockpuppet. You're the expert here. Should the page be locked onto the prior version? Or what? Yankeepapa13 (talk) 20:14, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Sigh. I'll go take a look. I'm an experienced editor, but these obsessive types are a challenge for everyone. Maybe a few extra eyes here, like MONGO or someone... Montanabw^(talk) 20:56, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

Saw lots of edits to that article but had not checked them out. I will have a lookie.--MONGO (talk) 11:24, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

CerroFerro did it again, continuing the edit war, insulting Montanabw (and me), and ignoring the fact that wind can't levitate a person and gently set him back down into the same spot. Yankeepapa13 (talk) 16:14, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Yankeepapa13, we need more eyes on the article. I've pinged MONGO, and will also see if Bri is around; both work on forest fire articles. You might also want to try WP:3O, though with the caution that sometimes they don't always see it your way. Montanabw^(talk) 20:41, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

TFL notification

Hi, Montanabw. I'm just posting to let you know that List of Bureau of Land Management Herd Management Areas – a list that you have been heavily involved with – has been chosen to appear on the Main Page as Today's featured list for February 15. The TFL blurb can be seen here. If you have any thoughts on the selection, please post them on my talk page or at TFL talk. Regards, Giants2008 (Talk) 21:21, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Woo hoo! Should be fun. Thanks Montanabw^(talk) 21:26, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

2019

Die Zeit, die Tag und Jahre macht

Happy 2019 -

begin it with music and memories

Thank you for your help last year, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:34, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Please check out "Happy" once more, for a smile, and sharing (a Nobel Peace Prize), and resolutions. I wanted that for 1 January, but then wasn't sad about having our music pictured instead. Not too late for resolutions, New Year or not. DYK that he probably kept me on Wikipedia, back in 2012? By the line (which brought him to my attention, and earned the first precious in br'erly style) that I added to my editnotice, in fond memory? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:34, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

January

January

Lanzarote
... with thanks from QAI

Thank you for improving articles! Did you know that Precious began 7 years ago? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:29, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Portal talk

Transhumanist Hi! montanabw has been seriously busy w/ a personal project. She asked me to ping you for a favor. We've had an editor create a Rodeo portal, unknown to us, never told us. I had to stumble across it. He also had created a Rodeo WikiProject too. He really wasn't a team player and he says he quit the rodeo area due to our expectations of collaboration. I'm sorry that happened; it's not what we intended. Anyway, we've found some flaws in the wikiproject. So, could you check the Rodeo portal to ensure all the technical bits are coded correctly? We would really appreciate it. Thanks! dawnleelynn^(talk) 21:41, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Seven years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:11, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Artist Eric Thorsen

Hello Montanabw: I'm sending an invitation for you to contribute to an article about Eric Thorsen, a Montana artist. Thanks! Froissart1989 (talk) 14:42, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the link to the interview. I’m working to improve the article. There were no references included when it was posted for deletion.

Boo

You're a horsey person, so I'll put this here. I was playing with colour correction and File:1973 Kentucky Derby Secretariat.jpg and got this. It's quite possibly of no use to anyone, but now I've linked to it I feel my encyclopedic duty is done, and my conscience won't nag me so much any more. ttfn. -- Begoon 11:52, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Begoon, quite an interesting picture, actually. The color correction is quite nice. Horsegeek^(talk) 18:26, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Horsegeek

If you want to upload, it Begoon, go for it... I think you, as the editor who tweaked it, might have to be the person to do so... Montanabw^(talk) 22:59, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Ok, done. Anyone who doesn't like it or thinks it takes unnecessary liberties can always revert it. -- Begoon 23:11, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

we thank you

March

... with thanks from QAI

Thank you for article improvements in February! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:18, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

... and in March! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:04, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

2019 Kentucky Derby

Hi there! Someone created a redirect for 2019 Kentucky Derby that just takes you to the main article, instead of waiting for the new article to be created (which I was just about to do since we're now in the homestretch of the Derby Trail. How do you un-redirect? Thanks! Jlvsclrk (talk) 01:01, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Jlvsclrk Just edit...remove the redirect markup ( do the talkpage, also) and away you go! Montanabw^(talk) 00:13, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Lawyers and law students' signatures needed for Supreme Court amicus brief in favor of publishing the law

Hello, given your userbox I thought you might be interested in helping Carl Malamud's case for the public domain, crucial also for Wikisource: https://boingboing.net/2019/04/25/happy-law-day.html . Best regards, Nemo 21:07, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

FA mentoring?

Hey, Montanabw! I was thinking about taking an article to FA, and no one else on the mentors list seemed like they'd be interested in Cincinnati chili; you were pretty much the only one who said they'd be interested in any topic. :) If it doesn't float your boat, no worries! --valereee (talk) 13:46, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Flaxen

Just to let you know, I changed the flaxen article again (its notability was being questioned). Iamnotabunny (talk) 22:38, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Homer Davenport scheduled for TFA

This is to let you know that Homer Davenport has been scheduled as WP:TFA for 20 May 2019. Please check that the article needs no amendments. If you're interested in editing the main page text, you're welcome to do so at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/May 20, 2019. Thanks! Ealdgyth - Talk 22:26, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

May

... with thanks from QAI

Good news, thank you! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:18, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Today, thank you for your work on Davenport, whose "cartoons in the 1896, 1900, and 1904 presidential races played were influential, affecting how people perceived the candidates. But that was just one facet of his life, as his interest in animals, especially his importation of Arabian horses in 1906 following an epic journey in the Middle East, may be an even greater legacy. He died young after a life not entirely happy, but his name lives on in political cartooning and the world of horses." - and written in collaboaration! - Don't miss to click on May, for my most recent pics. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:25, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Tiger eye

If you have the time, mind taking a look at Tiger eye? I think it might need more non-technical information, but I'm not too good at adding that. Just can't think of what to put other than that yes indeed, the eyes are yellowish.

And, sorry but I can't really slow down. When I start on a project I work on it as close to all day every day as I can get away with and can focus on nothing else. Don't worry, I'll run out of steam sooner or later. Iamnotabunny (talk) 08:23, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Iamnotabunny, Thank you for keeping me in the loop. I've been super-busy IRL lately and not able to get over here as much as I'd like. Montanabw^(talk) 15:09, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Posavnia horse

Hey Montana! It's been a while :)

I was recently working on an article for a new horse breed that has its own article on the French Wikipedia and have been trying to correct grammar and add on as best as I could, but was wondering if you could take a look over it? (User:Horsegeek/Posavina_(horse)) I haven't yet added all the references or anything, but most of the information that I've translated is there. Thanks! Horsegeek^(talk) 19:05, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

• Hi Horsegeek. We title breed articles without disambiguation, so it should be Posavina horse. BUT, also double-check to see if this is the same breed as the Posavac, which we already have an article on, and is from Posavina. On these European breeds, I ping Justlettersandnumbers to look them over also, as JLAN also is familiar with some of the sourcing issues that arise with these small breeds. Montanabw^(talk) 19:19, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, it's the same horse. Our article seems to be already better than the French one, but could do with some extra references; I'll probably add some if I remember. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 19:43, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Ah, thank you. The to-do list on WikiProject Equine really needs to be updated. Seriously misleaded me. Horsegeek^(talk) 21:58, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Horse colors

Just letting you know, I effectively reverted your revert on seal brown since Sponenberg's book still says it's thought to be at Agouti, and I replied on the flaxen talk page.

Also, has anyone found horses with a "countershading stripe" that test negative for non-dun 1? I think that they might be the same thing, but I can't find anything that says either way. Iamnotabunny (talk) 01:27, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Iamnotabunny I know “seal brown” is agouti, Seal brown is just plain old bay, a dark variant with the light shading at the soft areas, that has a proposed allele, A(t), but no test. Some lab claimed to have a test, but had to pull it from the market because it wasn’t accurate.

As for the countershading stripe, I actually emailed Sponenberg about this once, and he sent me some photos of examples of each. I’ll see if I can find the email. But the short answer is that there aren’t that many horses that have been tested for the non-dun 1 alleles, period. Most tests are on non-dun2 buckskins to see whether they are dun or buckskin. Montanabw^(talk) 04:17, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Ok, maybe I misunderstood you. If you find that email let me know; I'd love to see those pictures! Iamnotabunny (talk) 05:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Hi I'm excited because I was reading [16] and now I understand better why so many KIT mutations have dominant effects! KIT is a receptor on the cell membrane and when it binds to the signal molecule, it actually needs to wait until it encounters another KIT receptor before it passes on the signal. So if there's half as much KIT as there should be because one copy of the gene is completely non-functional, that doesn't just mean there's less receptors for the signal to bind to, but also makes it less likely that two receptors will find each other. (I forget the exact math, but it should mean half the receptors pass on less than half the signal.) And also, if one copy of the gene is partially functional, so that some of the functional receptors bind to non-functional ones and make the whole complex non-functional, that can have an even larger effect. Iamnotabunny (talk) 02:27, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Excellent!

Hello M. I hope you are well. The "free reign rein" userbox you left on BMK's talk page is a treat. Seeing it also gave me the opportunity, after many many moons, to stop by and say hello. Thanks for the Friday smile!! MarnetteD|Talk 23:10, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Your statement at RFAR

Could you please condense your statement at WP:A/R/C to fit the word limit? It may help to remember that the sole purpose of statements there is only to help the committee decide whether arbitration is required, not to argue the rights and wrongs of the case. GoldenRing (talk) 08:53, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Done. Montanabw^(talk) 23:14, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

100,000th edit!

	100,000th edit award
	Let me be the first to congratulate you on your 100,000th edit! You are now entitled to place the 100,000 Edit Star on your bling page! or you could choose to display the {{User 100,000 edits}} user box. Or both! Cheers, — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 23:11, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Congratulations! I am glad you made that first one and stuck around to mentor me :) SusunW (talk) 23:15, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Yowza - many congrats on reaching this number M. Now I've stopped by twice in one day :-) Cheers. MarnetteD|Talk 23:14, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Congratulations! Let's celebrate with pizza and bear! --Rosiestep (talk) 23:19, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Rosiestep Is that black or brown bear on that pizza. Montana is home to both :-) MarnetteD|Talk 23:29, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

OMG, too funny. Bear-->beer. haha --Rosiestep (talk) 01:27, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Bears and wine... sounds yummy. Actually, some of the black bears look brown, but mist of the brown bears are Grizzlies! Thank you, everyone! This today and my book is going to be released on July 8! Lots of writing! Montanabw^(talk) 02:42, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

"Mist of the Brown Bears": name of the next Jean M. Auel novel. :) — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 03:06, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

June

cornflowers
... with thanks from QAI

I thought of you when I saw the gallop on the Main page. Thank you for what you do for teh cabal ;) - wild! Have wild flowers! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:07, 15 June 2019 (UTC) i

Wow, congratulations. --Camelia (talk) 09:43, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Congratulations on an amazing achievement. What's equally impressive is that over 53,000 of them were to mainspace. A lot of articles have benefited from you being here. --RexxS (talk) 09:48, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Wow, this is so exciting. As one of montanabw's recent mentors (2016 to present), I can vouch that she made many significant contributions to her own articles, other editors' articles, and especially my articles while helping me getting started as an editor. Without her, I would definitely not be the editor I am today. She's been invaluable to this community that has grown up around her talk page too. In a day where edit counts can be somewhat artificially inflated, her's is not. She writes for quality, not quantity. So well deserved! Yay! :)) dawnleelynn^(talk) 17:01, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Aww, you guys... thanks everyone! Montanabw^(talk) 17:23, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Perfect day for RfA, no? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:12, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

oh, don’t tempt me like that! If my book wasn’t being released in two weeks (July 8 for those who know about that project), I’d say now is the perfect time! But then, a month from now, the current drahmahz will probably still be roaring along, so a delay is not apt to be problematic! Montanabw^(talk) 01:09, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

One of the editors- a true writer of articles- I watched and learned from and still do. Thank you and many congratulations.Littleolive oil (talk) 03:24, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Hey, congratulations from me too, and that's very exciting news about the book. SarahSV ^(talk) 21:58, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Shoot, I'll pile on too. Here's hoping you hold on to the reins for your next 100,000 edits. ☆ Bri (talk) 22:27, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

OK. GIDDYUP! Montanabw^(talk) 02:50, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

Congrats! I know this might seem odd but did you get an email about me Montanabw? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 05:42, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

From you? Yes. About you? No. Montanabw^(talk) 06:50, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Congrats from me too! Thanks for all you do here! Calliopejen1 (talk) 05:51, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Comment on meta

Hi Montanabw. Over on meta, you used the phrase "showing your throat". What did you mean by that? While thinking about what it could mean, I've come up with a few possibilities, but wanted to check with you first in case I am misunderstanding this. Carcharoth (talk) 14:56, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

You should know it is a common colloquialism. It references behavior often seen in canines, when a weaker animal demonstrates submission or giving up by rolling over and exposing their vulnerable throat and underbelly. Why would such a common expression need a definition? Montanabw^(talk) 16:01, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

I was unaware of that. It may not be as common as you think (what hope for a universal code of conduct?). It means to be submissive? When I went looking for a definition, I managed to get something about gladiators. Item 13 on this list. Not a reliable source! :-) Thanks for explaining. Carcharoth (talk) 16:09, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

That example is also derivative of the animal behavior. In dogs, rolling over and showing their throat (voluntarily or when forced) is like “crying uncle” to a dominant pack member...the animal’s throat isn’t ripped out by the dominant pack leader, it’s that the submissive animal acknowledges their lower rank in the pack. I was looking for examples on YouTube and not finding anything great, but at about 1:40 here you see a lab laying down, and a german shepherd trying to grab the lab’s neck... the whole thing is just play, but the German Shepherd is establishing dominance. Montanabw^(talk) 17:05, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

My thoughts: I’m not even sure it would be improper explicitly in the combat sense. Would substituting “At the moment, I suspect you have lost any interest in falling on your sword” have given cause for concern? —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:20, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Or, "I am guessing at this point you will not change your mind and agree that the WMF was correct in its actions." I think just avoiding any references to sharp objects is a good idea. Montanabw^(talk) 19:43, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

another usage of swastikas

About that Montana building with swastikas in its floor tiles, I recall you developed coverage about that at, I guess, Western use of the swastika in the early 20th century. From working on NRHP-listed Elephant Butte Historic District and Elephant Butte Dam topics in New Mexico, I just came across interesting Peter E. Kern and Kern Place articles, which include photo of swastika-adorned, unusual gateway to the Kern Place residential area, involving Toltec indians somehow. I don't feel comfortable myself about adding to the "Western use" article, but I wonder if you could place appropriate mention there or elsewhere? --Doncram (talk) 16:18, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Doncram, the best approach would be to link to Western use of the swastika in the early 20th century#As a Native American symbol. I've got very little expertise myself, other than knowing about the ones on the entryway of the Montana Club. Montanabw^(talk) 17:38, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

So Many Congrats!

It's Publication Day. Hip Hip Hip Hooray!! Congrats on the publication of your book Montanabw. I did notice that there was a comma missing on page 38 :-) Is there a book tour in your future? I'm sure that I am one of many WikiP editors that are happy for you I just got here first :-) Cheers. MarnetteD|Talk 15:28, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Ya made me look! LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 17:42, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Hee Hee. MarnetteD|Talk 18:07, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Great news! Did you know that I just mentioned you? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:20, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

I guess WP:OUTING laws prevent me from linking to the book, but well done in getting published. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:17, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Wow! Congrats, Montanabw! What’s the book title? It’s no easy feat getting a book published! Horsegeek^(talk) 18:54, 9 July 2019 (UTC)Horsegeek

Yeah, if you're willing to out yourself, I'll make my library order the book. :D --valereee (talk) 19:03, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

It's out? Congrats! —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 20:01, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Valereee and Horsegeek, anyone who wants to email me for details, go ahead and do so. Montanabw^(talk) 21:45, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

I would like to! What is your email, Montana? Wormie1 (talk) 23:28, 9 July 2019 (UTC)Wormie1

Wormie1 many editors are wary of giving out their contact info on WikiP. If you click on the "Email this user" link under the "tools" heading in the upper left corner of this talk page Montanabw well be able to send you the details needed to get a copy of the book. Cheers. MarnetteD|Talk 00:53, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Precisely. Use the “email this user” link. Thanks MarnetteD. Montanabw^(talk) 02:10, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Reading Kafka

Thank you for watching over Franz Kafka. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:52, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Witch watch: the Witch of Pungo was pardoned on a July 10, 300 years after her trial. Good date for RfA, don't you think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:07, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Mother Berry

I turned her loose into mainspace. :) Elizabeth Williams Berry Megalibrarygirl (talk) 20:50, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Added some magic formatting foo. Wonder if you and Rosiestep want to take this to WP:DYK? Montanabw^(talk) 22:38, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

OMG. I hate the DYK process. However, I know Ritchie333 is pretty good at it. I also added info about Mother Berry to the article on Jockeys. :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 23:35, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Really nice article, Megalibrarygirl! BTW, I don't bother with the DYK process anymore. --Rosiestep (talk) 01:53, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Oh come on, you guys, join the power users’ club! :-) Montanabw^(talk) 01:56, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Here ya go : Template:Did you know nominations/Elizabeth Williams Berry. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:17, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

I knew Ritchie333 would come through!!!! :D Megalibrarygirl (talk) 14:57, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Interesting biography, but careful: her reported age does not make sense. See WT:LONGEVITY#Elizabeth Williams Berry. — JFG ^talk 22:37, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Annual newspaper articles on her for about 12 years, look at your sources. Montanabw^(talk) 22:52, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you ...

July

... with thanks from QAI

... for improving article quality in July! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:17, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

DYK for Elizabeth Williams Berry

On 3 August 2019, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Elizabeth Williams Berry, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Mother Berry, a jockey who rode disguised as a man, earned her nickname after she adopted a runaway child? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Elizabeth Williams Berry. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Elizabeth Williams Berry), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

valereee (talk) 00:02, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Nice one, congrats! I have Johann Münzberg on the same page. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:46, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi!

Hello! I've noticed your username in the list of FAC mentors. I'm currently writing an article draft about Indonesian homegardens, and I'm aiming a featured-article criteria for it. However, I'm afraid that the writing might be inadequate in its flow or readability, and I'm also afraid that I might accidentally came into indications of original research. If you have time, any revision or any form of constructive criticism will be appreciated. Thank you in advance! Dhio-270599 15:33, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

Greetings

	Nice to meet you ~
	Nice cut ~ here ~ ~mitch~ (talk) 23:28, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Bummer ~ you know spurs, hat, boots, even what type of jeans you wear are not "mandated" ~ Take it from some one who has been doing it for quite a few years ~ please put the spurs back in ~ also while your at it, why don't you put the bridle part back in ~ thanks ~mitch~ (talk) 23:49, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

• No. Actually, Mitchellhobbs, hats and boots are mandated. The use of the bridle is explained in the text, it is bad formatting to put excess detail into a photo caption. Also, it's "you're", not "your." Montanabw^(talk) 23:57, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
• thanks for that bit of info ~ bit if Atsme tells me I might believe it more ~ ~mitch~ (talk) 00:09, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

just a cowboy on the ranch ~ can't spell much and my grammer isn't quite well either ~ ~mitch~ (talk) 00:11, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Montanabw is a highly polished Wikipedian who is well-versed in multiple disciplines and various breeds of horses, genetics and - oh lorty - just about everything. You can trust what she says, Mitch. If my memory serves, she has also been to a Wiki Conference - helped set one up, I believe. I hope she can make the Boston conference as well. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 00:16, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Well the caption says ~ The rider wears ~ this and that ~ (as in they have too) ~ they don't have to wear anything except what the rule book says ~ and if the rule book does not say it ~ then i guess they don't don't have to wear it ~ well i don't see anywhere in the rule book where it says you have to wear a pair of wranglers ~ because I'm might be a rouge cowboy ~ but I wear Levis when I cut ~ it misleads the reader into thinking riders "have" to wear this and that when they don't ~ on the file Montanabw editing ~ it should say ~"This rider is wearing" ~ not (all) riders wear ~ I do have respect for both of you'all ~ so just being funny WP:LOL~ where does it say we have to wear a pair of pants at all ~mitch~ (talk) 00:27, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

You know, both of you'all ~ I came in with a thanks and a greeting ~ but you took my spurs away~ hurt my feelings ~ if you want ~ I'll just live the real life and delete it from my watch page and let you'all have at it ~ ~ ~mitch~ (talk) 00:32, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

NCHA Rule Book - Judging Rule 16 - chaps & spurs may be worn...and for clothing see 16 (b), pg 147 - here. 😊 ^Atsme _Talk 📧 00:35, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm not mad ~ recovering ~ it should be added to the file ~ It was the only thing that I wanted to add to the article ~ because I definitely have a conflict of interest ~ this edit here is what I was correcting ~ ~mitch~ (talk) 00:40, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

My point is that it doesn’t need to be in the caption, the rules can be discussed in the text. Captions are short. As for trousers, let some idiot start a fad of wearing assless chaps, and you betcha there’d be a rule... Montanabw^(talk) 01:48, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

All chaps are assless - trousers are a different story - and that rule would probably be gender biased. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 01:57, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

A point that I had to make repeatedly on vandal patrol at chaps. Montanabw^(talk) 02:24, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) ~ Ok ~ what does not need to be in the caption ~ 'rider' (could be anything from a Jumper to a jockey) ~ or an 12 year old little girl that is in the practice ring when her horse has a heart attack and dies on her (with her still in the saddle {I might add}) on the spot ~ including me (as in I) left to console this twelve year old and give her the faith she needs to keep a stiff upper lip ~ and root the other competitors on ~ and has to watch a front end loader come and pick up this (several thousand dollar horse) ~) or ~ should it be what we are properly called 'cutters" ~ ~mitch~ (talk) 02:02, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Atsme ~ WP:LOL ~mitch~ (talk) 02:14, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Not sure your point here, Mitchellhobbs; I found my first pony dead in the corral (also of a heart attack, according to the vet) when I was about 10. Your tales of woe and mine have nothing to do with Wikipedia photo captions. See WP:CAPTION. I realize you’ve only been editing seriously for about a year, and sometimes the “anyone can edit” stuff gets a little frustrating, but we do have a manual of style, and we learn to deal with it, we actually can wind up being a better writer, which is a source of pride when you look back on it. You can, if you wish, look at my favorite featured article, American Pharoah for an example of how I understand the WP MOS to work. (I was the lead editor on that one and damn proud of it too). Montanabw^(talk) 02:24, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

I have a suggestion for Mitch...re: captions - most editors have scrolled down the hallowed halls of EEng’s Museum to the Principal of Some Astonishment where there is non-stop entertainment...and a bit of food for thought. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 02:33, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict):Ok I hear what you are saying ~ Montanabw, I'm not saying anything bad about you or Wiki ~ my point is you labeled me as a rider in a cutter article ~ and yes I have been here for a year ~ but if you add up my edits in the past year ~ if I did this for a living ~ (which I don't) in four or five of years I might have (damn) ~ 40 or 50 thousand edits ~ and learning the whole time ~ my point is ~ you can not edit from a book ~ sometimes you have to get in the saddle and ride the horse ~ this is not a hobby for me (Wiki) ~ the whole point is that there are people in the field that truly know from the ground up ~ (including picking up the poop) ~ now Atsme has given you great praise ~ and I am not gearing this comment towards you ~ if some 'new editor' as you call me takes up the reins and tries to put a little reality on others who has no clue as to what a horse feels like (not to mention riding one) ~ but has only others to depend on ~ what I am saying we are called cutters not riders ~ we live the life ~ I cut cows ~ I de-worm cows ~ I get the flies off of the cows tailbone ~ because flies have learned over a period of time ~ the weak spot ~ I know this is off subject ~ but imagine a fly dropping their vomit on a place that you can not reach ~ you can not clean ~ you can not scratch ~ only to know that you will end up on someones plate at Texas Roadhouse (on 620 &IH35 lol}) ~ we have to keep the truth alive ~ and the only ones we can pass that down to is our children ~ (or in other cases young editors) ~ I admit I really don't know you, I have not checked your history, but I know you came out gruff ~ when I was introducing myself to you ~ so if you want to be firm ~ I have no choice but to oblige ~ point it should be cutter not rider ~ your teaching generality when you should be teaching specifics ~ if not ~ oh well I'll go on and know when someone calls me a rider ~ Hmm i wonder where that came from ~ ~mitch~ (talk) 03:03, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

OK, here's the deal Mitch: your original "take it from someone" comment "came out" condescending from my end, so if you perceive "gruff," we can just both step back and acknowledge that words alone sometimes fail to convey the proper nuance. Basically, you are the not the only person who knows your subject. Yes, a "rider" can be a lot of things (jockey, show jumper, trail rider, etc.), but so can a cutter, and I presume you are not a lightweight sleigh pulled over snow, plus we have to write for a general audience and though some technical language is necessary, we have to avoid jargon. Montanabw^(talk) 03:22, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Ok I can see this is getting nowhere ~ it is truly nice to meet you ~ ~ i'm not in a humours mood ~ I'm going to change rider in the file we started with ~ and if you want to chage it back ~ no hard feelings ~ hope to see you in Boston ~mitch~ (talk) 03:51, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Best to you, and happy trails. Montanabw^(talk) 04:01, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Ditto ~ hope to see you soon ~ ~mitch~ (talk) 04:07, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

• I just read your user page ~ Impressive ~ ~mitch~ (talk) 04:28, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

  (talk page stalker) Hi, I am regular talk page stalker of this user's talk page. I also find it confusing what it going on with the photo caption as explained in WP:CAPTION. The caption needs to be succinct as it is the most important attribute. There are 25 instances of rider in this article; why is only an instance in one caption the focus of attention to say cutter and of correcting the rules? By the way, the NCHA uses rider throughout its website: here's a few examples: [17], [18], and [19]. Additionally, here's a link to their glossary and cutter is not found there: [20]. As in other types of horse articles, for example, in horse racing, the jockey is referred to as a rider at times too. I agree the article should be updated correctly, but in the article body. The captions need to be made succinct. Best, dawnleelynn^(talk) 21:51, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Hi! dawnleelynn Nice to meet you ~ on your example here ~ 'Cutter’s slump' ~ seems to me the NCHA is referring to the rider as a cutter ~ ~mitch~ (talk) 23:15, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Let's see if we might be able to reach a compromise. The NCHA Rule Book has 461 instances of "cutter" vs 160 instances of "rider". On page 108 Definitions - CUTTER: For the purpose of this Casebook, the term “cutter” refers to the contestant and his horse as a working unit. From time to time the unit will be divided. In these instances the text will describe the activities of the contestant and his horse separately. Ok, "working unit", so if we are referring only to a contestant's apparel, we would use contestant if in reference to show attire, rider if loping horses in the warm-up pen or simply riding a horse in the arena because trainers have lopers who are not cutters or contestants, (riders may not wear hoodies or ballcaps in the arena), and cutter when the contestant and his/her horse are a working unit in the show ring, ("the cutter rides into the herd", "the cutter separates one cow from the herd"). And contestant ("All contestants must have their entry fees paid in advance," or "Contestants must enter the arena through Gate #3." ) Maybe it is easier just to say rider rather than get too technical. We normally use layperson terms because most people who read WP have never heard of, much less seen, a cutting. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 23:51, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Atsme ~ LOL ~ I am very happy with the caption as Montanabw edited it ~ I was just responding to dawnleelynn's edit ~ LOL ~mitch~ (talk) 00:02, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

If we still need to discuss, we can take it to the article talkpage, but I think we’ve got it settled for now. By the way, y’all might want to check out the big merge I did of two stubs today to create Futurity (horse competition). We had separate articles for racing and showing, both leaving out rodeo barrel racing, so I got bold and just made one big one. It probably is a glorified list, but if my summarizations are off, well, anyone can edit and I invite succinct cleanup. Montanabw^(talk) 00:56, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

(damn) ~ I'm getting dragged into another horse show ~WP:LOL ~mitch~ (talk) 01:05, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Yep, you've just been baptized "Horse Show Dad". Buy the t-shirt. 👕🎠😂 Oh, and we've been kicked out of Montanabw's yard. Later!! ^Atsme _Talk 📧 01:56, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you

August

red admiral
... with thanks from QAI

... for improving articles in August! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:19, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Cheval lorrain

Hi, this looks like a notable missing article!♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:47, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Pinging Justlettersandnumbers, who can read French. Montanabw^(talk) 16:24, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Montana, but I've already taken a quick look. That page is sourced almost exclusively to nineteenth-century sources and it's not really clear to me that the topic actually is particularly notable. My feeling is that there many missing horse breed articles to be written before we get to that one. Hi, Dr. Blofeld! Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Another mess is Landrace. Just saying... Montanabw^(talk) 20:22, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Indeed it is! Not one I'm planning to "mess" with, though. A redirect to breed would put it out of its misery, but who will bell that cat? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:33, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

Oh, I'm always up for belling the cat, just not right now. Still doing book stuff, two gigs next week, plus it just came out on Kindle/Nook yesterday.

Yay! for Kindle/Nook. I also noticed you have more reviews finally on Amazon. :) dawnleelynn^(talk) 22:46, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

WikiConference North America 2019

You are invited to WikiConference North America 2019 on November 8-11 in Boston. Deadline for Program Submissions and Scholarship Applications is September 20. Hope to see you there! --Rosiestep (talk) 00:39, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you ...

September

meadow saffron

.. for improving articles in September! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:18, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Jauchzet, frohlocket

Thank you for dealing with the image concerns for the cantata.

In File:Bach_Weihnachtsoratorium_Nr4T106-114.svg, the German description is Description={{de|1=Gegenüberstellung des [[:de:Weihnachts-Oratorium (Bach)|Weihnachstoratoriums]] mit einer Parodie.}} Sorry, that is wrong. Should be "Gegenüberstellung eines Abschnitts einer Arie aus Bachs Weihnachstoratoriums (Teil I, Nr. 4, Bereite dich, Zion) und der weltlichen Vorlage" In English: "Juxtaposition of part of an aria from Bach's en:Christmas Oratorio (Part I, No. 4, Bereite dich, Zion) and its secular model." Can you insert that? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:24, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Sure, Google translate was not adequate! Montanabw^(talk) 17:27, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

That's not it, the German original is wrong! I had my differences with (uploader) Wikiwal in my early days, so would really appreciate if YOU changed. The Christmas Oratorio IS the parody, not the other, so the German is wrong. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:31, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Do I have it correct now? (Purge commons page and reload to see my changes). Montanabw^(talk) 17:37, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you! - "Our" file is still teh old way, though, hope that will miraculously change. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:16, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Maybe "source" is more idiomatic for music than "model"? ☆ Bri (talk) 19:44, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

They usually say "basis" for what it's based on. "Source" has (too?) many meanings. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:42, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you

October

... with thanks from QAI

You gave me great pleasure, because I read again what you wrote seven years ago, and found it still good! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:58, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Thank you also for article improvement in October! - I have a peer review open, DYK? Clara Schumann, 60 years of recitals, and what a life! See my talk today for great music that we sang yesterday. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:01, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Today, I am proud of a great woman on the Main page, Márta Kurtág, finally, who has several things in common with Schumann! - Here's my ideal candidate for arbcom. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:11, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Giving thanks

Thanksgiving

Cassia javanica, Torremolinos
... with thanks from QAI

Happy Thanksgiving! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:17, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Peace Dove

Peace is a state of balance and understanding in yourself and between others, where respect is gained by the acceptance of differences, tolerance persists, conflicts are resolved through dialog, peoples rights are respected and their voices are heard, and everyone is at their highest point of serenity without social tension. Happy Holidays to you and yours. Drove back and forth thru Montana this summer. Tepee'd in Kalispell overnite on the way back from BirchBay, WA. Loved It!!!!―Buster7 ☎ 23:07, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

It’s that time of year!

Christmas tree worm, (Spirobranchus gigantic) Atsme Talk 📧 16:34, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
	Time To Spread A Little Happy Holiday Cheer!!
	I decorated a special kind of Christmas tree in the spirit of the season. What's especially nice about this digitized version: *it doesn't need water *won't catch fire *and batteries aren't required.
	Have a very Merry Christmas – Happy Hanukkah‼️ and a prosperous New Year!! 🍸🎁 🎉

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Cheers

Damon Runyon's short story "Dancing Dan's Christmas" is a fun read if you have the time. Right from the start it extols the virtues of the hot Tom and Jerry This hot Tom and Jerry is an old-time drink that is once used by one and all in this country to celebrate Christmas with, and in fact it is once so popular that many people think Christmas is invented only to furnish an excuse for hot Tom and Jerry, although of course this is by no means true. No matter what concoction is your favorite to imbibe during this festive season I would like to toast you with it and to thank you for all your work here at the 'pedia this past year. Best wishes for your 2020 as well M. MarnetteD|Talk 22:21, 17 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you ...

Vision in 2020

missing Brian

... for improving article quality in December! There's a peer review open for Clara Schumann and a FAC for Jauchzet, frohlocket!, DYK? We miss Brian who would have helped. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:53, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Season's greetings

Wild and free

Hello Montanabw: Enjoy the holiday season, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 14:12, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Io Saturnalia!

		Io, Saturnalia!
		Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and distraction-free. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:34, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

	Merry Christmas Montanabw
	Hi Montanabw, I wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas and a very happy and prosperous New Year, Thanks for all your contributions to the 'pedia this past year,    –Davey2010talk 00:51, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas and a Prosperous 2020!

Hello Montanabw, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2020. Happy editing, dawnleelynn(talk) 16:54, 23 December 2019 (UTC) Spread the love by adding {{subst:Seasonal Greetings}} to other user talk pages.

DYK Review

If anyone needs a QPQ for your DYK nom, I just created my firat new article in a while. It’s at Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Lac_La_Croix_Indian_Pony. Anyone who wants to improve the article is also welcome to do so. Montanabw^(talk) 05:20, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Belated holiday greetings

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• 
• File:Christmas Train Lanterns With Capiz.jpg

Merry Christmas and happy new year.
↠Pine (✉) 16:41, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

The countdown

Montanabw, thank you for the work you do, and for all you’ve done over the years in an effort to build a quality encyclopedia!	2020!!
	Out with the old, in with the new!! I'll remember 2019 like it was yesterday! Remember, a New Year's resolution is something that goes in one year and out the other. Definition of a hangover: Wrath of Grapes. What kind of doctor fixes broken websites? A URLologist. 🎉🥂🍾🎊 Atsme Talk 📧 13:38, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

                                                 

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Happy New Year!

• 
  MMXX Lunar Calendar

Montanabw,
Have a great 2020 and thanks for your continued contributions to Wikipedia.

---

   – 2020 is a leap year – news article.
   – Background color is Classic Blue (#0F4C81), Pantone's 2020 Color of the year

Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year 2020}} to user talk pages.

– North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 22:36, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Same time

Funnily enough, you promoted the first prep to prep 3 at the same time as I tried to! I just ended up moving mine to prep 4, though. TheAwesomeHwyh 17:59, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Woah, it happened again! This time, I tried to promote Biogeography of paravian dinosaurs, but you did it at the same time! What are the odds? TheAwesomeHwyh 18:32, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

@TheAwesomeHwyh: I'm done with prep3 now. Must be great minds thinking alike. Have at the rest of them! LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 18:35, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Welcome back to DYK!

Montanabw, welcome back to DYK and to building prep sets. It's great to see you again.

There were a couple of minor glitches, so I thought I'd remind you of a few things:

• Be sure to copy the DYKmake templates from the nominations into the credits. It looks like you got the hang of it by the time you got to Prep 3 (though one of the ones there was DYK nompage links template rather than the DYKmake), but I think you built your own for some in Prep 2, since they didn't match what had been in the nominations. It's better if the subpage parameter is there (it sometimes should be added for any DYKmakes beyond the first), and the second field needs to match the name of the article exactly; when you're doing your final check, make sure that the Credits section has "View nom subpage" links for each article (DYKmake) line, since its absence means that something needs fixing; the DYKnom lines don't have these links (or the subpage parameter).
• Please don't manually remove articles you've just promoted from the Approved page. The bot runs every two hours and does the removals automatically; since the DYK bots are fussy about even a blank line and build the Approved page, editing this by hand can cause issues. The only hand edits on this page should be moving approved hooks to the special occasion section at the bottom of the page, and editing in that bottom section.

Thanks for helping out again. It's really great to have you. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:02, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset:, thanks for the tips. Things have changed a bit since the last time I did a prep set, so thanks for stopping by. Hope nothing significant was messed up with my excessive helpiness! Also, might want to update the instructions on the individual prep set pages, as they don't quite line up with current practice...Montanabw^(talk) 22:10, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Montanabw, everything's fine now in those preps; it only took a bit of editing to get them in line. Can you please give me an example of something that didn't reflect current practice on the prep set pages, say Prep 3? (Or any other the other preps; they should all have the same boilerplate.) I'm not seeing anything, but it could be I'm too used to things to recognize what needs changing. It's not good if we're behind the times in what we're telling people to do. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:41, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

The sample of the DYKmake lines, the individual prep page example filler sections still show the old pattern without the subpage parameter. See example section here. I was confused whether to use the version there or the one in the DYK noms. Might want to tweak those. Montanabw^(talk) 01:30, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

DYK nomination

Hello Montanabw, It seems my DYK nomination has been abandoned by the original reviewer. It's been more than three weeks since I've heard from him. If you're of mind, would you give the nomination another look and critique or finish the review? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 20:07, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

DYK for Lac La Croix Indian Pony

On 10 January 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Lac La Croix Indian Pony, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the Lac La Croix Indian Pony was recreated from a breeding population of four mares by crossing them with a Spanish Mustang? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Lac La Croix Indian Pony. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Lac La Croix Indian Pony), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Amakuru (talk) 12:01, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

January

... with thanks from QAI

Thank you for improving articles in January! Today - 20 in 2020 - is a birthday, she is pictured on the lower choir pic, enjoy listening. - Don't miss clicking on the lower Main page history link, for a pony as TFA. DYK that I wanted to write the article about the soprano today, only to find out that I gave her that DYK in 2013 ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:22, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Orinx

Did you read: Auguste Oreins (Orenge) and the origin of the Belgian draft horse ? Pajot - De Wolf (talk) 19:37, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Yes. Your question? Montanabw^(talk) 20:11, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Is that not about a horse breed?Pajot - De Wolf (talk) 13:01, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

No. It is an article about a family, not a horse breed. The categorization was WP:OVERCAT. Montanabw^(talk) 17:24, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Horse breeders is that more appropriate? Pajot - De Wolf (talk) 20:22, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I added it. Montanabw^(talk) 20:33, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Request for assistance/approval of draft article

Hi Montanabw! I found your Wikipedia Talk Page on the Equine WikiProject and I wanted to get in touch and hopefully request/put on your radar a draft article which I am still currently working on for a University Project. It is surrounding "Rotational Falls in Eventing" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Rotational_Falls_in_Eventing). It is yet to be moved from a draft article to being approved or published. Was just hoping that if you got a chance, as your someone with an interest in the field of Equine you could have a look at my page and possibly publish it or provide me with advice to improve it for publishing! Sorry if I haven't used the right lingo in this message - I am still learning the ropes of being on Wikipedia. Thanks :) Watercolours1707 (talk) 22:26, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

I’ll respond there. Montanabw^(talk) 00:58, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you I will continue the conversation there. Watercolours1707 (talk) 01:29, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Hi Montanabw - I have made some more edits and think I am ready to move the article to the main page (with your endorsement and further advice if necessary of course). Thank you in advance! Watercolours1707 (talk) 02:16, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Ok. See article talkpage. Montanabw^(talk) 02:33, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you so much for all your advice and help and for publishing my page! I really appreciate it. Watercolours1707 (talk) 02:45, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Eight years!

and today --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:17, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Secretariat (horse)

This is to let you know that the above article has been scheduled as today's featured article for March 30, 2020. Please check the article needs no amendments. If you're interested in editing the main page text, you're welcome to do so at Wikipedia:Today's featured article/March 30, 2020. Hope you're doing well.—Wehwalt (talk) 07:46, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Would like your mentorship on this article Leptospirosis

Hi, I am in the process of editing this article Leptospirosis to reach FA status. Previously, I tried to nominate the article for FA but failed. Would like your opinion on the manual of style of this article and on how should I nominate the article for MOS review? Thanks and have a nice day. Cerevisae (talk) 21:24, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid I'm a bit too busy IRL to do so right now, but maybe one of my talkpage watchers can take a look. Montanabw^(talk) 00:50, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Sandra West Prowell

Hey, Montana writer person. I have a question about a Montana writer for you, and I'm asking you because you're from Montana, and a writer, and you're the only Montana writer I know (and one of only two Montanans.) :-)

Ahem.

More seriously - have you ever encountered a writer named Sandra West Prowell? She wrote a number of private eye novels in the 90s...they look to be set in Billings, if I read her output correctly. There's not a whole lot about her online beyond a reminiscence by a fellow writer and a few novel lists. And she's been dead for a few years, it seems, though I don't recall offhand what death date I found. Seems to have been a lifelong Montanan, if that reminiscence is to be believed.

I ask because my father is currently rereading a number of the old Rex Stout novels in the Rex Stout Library editions put out by Bantam; each of them has an introduction written (usually) by another crime writer, and the one he's on right now (Death of a Doxy) has an introduction by Prowell. The fact that Bantam invited her to write such suggests to me that she might warrant an article. She's in pretty good company - other intro-writers for the series include Carolyn G. Hart, Stuart Kaminsky, David Stout, and Andrew Greeley. If you know of her, think there's anything there worth pursuing? I do have a pretty comprehensive bio-bibliography of crime fiction at home, and she's not in there, for what it's worth. --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 14:04, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

I think Worldcat is your best source. I’m seeing several books by her and a couple collected works, plus a book on the genre that must mention her. Oddly enough, some of her books appear to have been translated into Dutch. These pre-Google genre writers are tough to locate info for. Located some used book copies of what appears to be her best-known work. Good luck! Montanabw^(talk) 15:09, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Interesting, thanks. I'll add her to my to-do pile. (Along with Maan Meyers, who wrote another of the introductions, and Annette Meyers, who was half of said pseudonym.) --Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 16:25, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

St. Patrick's Day

Pärt: The Deer's Cry

decoration + music with thanks from QAI! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:54, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Today, thank you and all who helped for Secretariat (horse), "about the famous racehorse Secretariat, Triple Crown winner and one of the finest racehorses in history. This is a high-importance article for WikiProject Horse racing and one that has has a substantial amount of work put in by many editors, not just the nominators."! Yesterday I thanked many who helped with Jessye Norman, - planned for Black history month, but at least appeared in Women's month. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:11, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Happy First Edit Day!

• Thanks so much! Wow. 3/31/2006. It’s been 14 years! Time flies when you’re having fun! Montanabw^(talk) 00:30, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

• Happy anniversary M! Your edit summary is so very true :-) MarnetteD|Talk 02:01, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

• Happy anniversary! --Rosiestep (talk) 16:21, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Arbitration case opened

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Jytdog. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Jytdog/Evidence. Please add your evidence by March 23, 2020, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Jytdog/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration.

All content, links, and diffs from the original ARC and the latest ARC are being read into the evidence for this case.

The secondary mailing list is in use for this case: arbcom-en-b@wikimedia.org

For the Arbitration Committee, CThomas³ (talk) 05:50, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

I just wanted to say thank you for what you have posted concerning this case. I have found your comments sensible and straightforward and I appreciated them. Jenhawk777 (talk) 08:06, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Happy Easter

or: the resurrection of loving-kindness --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:40, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Reassessment of Forest Reserve Act of 1891

Greetings, Montanabw! I found you on the list of members of Wikipedia:WikiProject United States, and I was wondering if perhaps you had time to reassess the Forest Reserve Act of 1891 article. I stumbled across it when I was doing some random copyediting and found a wealth of material to add, so I went ahead and expanded the article with what I found. I would say it's definitely better than stub class now, but I'm interested to hear your opinion. If you don't have the time or the inclination, that's absolutely fine! My sincere thanks for any help you are able to offer. Regards, CThomas³ (talk) 23:03, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

@Cthomas3:, it looks like a really nice expansion! I think it’s close enough to B-class that with a bit more fine tuning, it might even become a good candidate for WP:GAN, if you’re into that sort of thing. Also, don’t know if you’ve come across this dissertation, but there’s tons of stuff on the (mostly illegal) logging of the public domain in Montana in that era, and this paper has a good overview with a lot of source material. Worth a look if you are still doing research in that area. Montanabw^(talk) 23:41, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Montanabw, wow, that was quick! Thank you! Yes, I was thinking that there was enough to potentially go for a Good Article. I'll definitely take a look at your link! It was one of those things where I was merely trying to verify a few of the claims in the existing article when I ran across a number of really in-depth sources with tons of material. After a few minutes of reading through them I realized that really should just expand the darned thing. It turned out to be quite a fascinating topic! CThomas³ (talk) 01:10, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

You happened to hit a topic that I’ve been peripherally researching for an off-wiki project. The forests that fell to feed the maw of the Anaconda Company in Montana played a role in the creation of the town of Hamilton, Montana, and I’m looking into the origins of the town, and the lumber mill there. Marcus Daly and A.B. Hammond were allies and later rivals... fascinating study of the Gilded Age. Montanabw^(talk) 01:57, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Revert happy?

Could you explain why you reverted my changes to Gray horse? What are the inaccuracies you alluded to? (edited) Iamnotabunny (talk) 04:44, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

I did a revert, then some cleanup. If you note final changes, I kept most of your material. But the big thing is that the melanoma studies are all over the place and so I substituted a more accurate overview and some additional sources. Also, the thing on fleabitten grays was weirdly worded. Montanabw^(talk) 14:56, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for explaining. I might when I get around to it try to find all the studies on the melanoma / ASIP / MC1R connection or lack thereof, and if there's no consensus on it just move that part into a note. Also, I think I should put back something about the "fleabites" possibly coming from somatic mutations, since that's really helpful for understanding what's happening on a biology level, but try to word it better. It's a thing that has a small chance of happening in each of the melanocyte cells while the horse is alive, and then if it does it makes the colored fleabite spot if the horse is heterozygous gray. But if the horse is homozygous gray, then it needs to happen twice in the same cell before it makes a fleabite. If you happen to come up with a good way to word that, let me know. Iamnotabunny (talk) 21:29, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

The peer reviewed journal I added had a brief summary on the prevalence of malignancy in different studies. Also, someone created equine melanoma which has a number of sources we should look at. As for the other, “Fleabites” is odd language. I know there’s a logic where such grays are called “fleabitten,” but if we are going to discuss it, I’d suggest you put a draft at the talkpage and we can workshop it there by looking at the actual studies we will be citing. Montanabw^(talk) 22:11, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I just realized I may not have been clear enough about exactly what I was trying to say about grays and melanomas. There is definitely a link between gray and melanomas, that I do not dispute at all. And it is on very solid ground to say two copies of gray is more likely to cause melanomas than one. The part I'm less sure about is the claim that horses that start bay and then turn gray have very slightly less risk of melanomas than ones that start black and turn gray. Iamnotabunny (talk) 01:37, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

But the bay/black thing and the homozygousity things are not in the article (are they? ) Such claims are a little dubious, and thus need to be sourced to peer reviewed literature per WP:SCIRS. The more widely understood stuff (i.e. grays are prone to melanoma) can be sourced to responsible articles reporting about the studies, but “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” Does that make sense?Montanabw^(talk) 15:37, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Yep, they're in the article, and yep, they're sourced to the same peer reviewed study that found the gray duplication in the first place. More on the talk page.

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Ani/arb query

Montana, from your posts to the Jytdog case, it seems you were well aware of most of the ANI submissions surrounding his activity. I am here to ask a favor. For this case, are you able to point me towards (in your opinion) the most egregious case of WPMED supportive pile on at ANI? It happened so often, that I want to focus on the strongest case. Thanks in advance, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:09, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia:, I’d say the diffs from the GMO case were among the worst. There’s so much stuff, it’s almost impossible to know where to start, but some of the behavior linked from here might be worth drilling into. Montanabw^(talk) 15:50, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for that ... because, yes ... the amount of information I have to get through is just inconceivable ... as to how long this has been going on ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:56, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it’s been a problem for years. I’m glad it’s being looked at. Montanabw^(talk) 16:36, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Only if I find time to add the mountains of evidence, without abusing the relaxed word limits :( :( SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:46, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Found what I needed in QuackGuru ANIs — thanks! Unwatching now, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:57, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

Got this done. Thanks for the help, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:03, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Northern Dancer has been nominated for Did You Know

Hello, Montanabw. Northern Dancer, an article you either created or to which you significantly contributed, has been nominated to appear on Wikipedia's Main Page as part of Did you know. You can see the hook and the discussion here. You are welcome to participate! Thank you. EnterpriseyBot (talk!) 01:52, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

WIR

Beg pardon? --Deep fried okra User talk:Deepfriedokra 10:54, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Whoops. Not a clue how that happened. I restored it. Montanabw^(talk) 15:07, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

DYK for Northern Dancer

On 8 May 2020, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Northern Dancer, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Northern Dancer was the first Canadian-bred horse to win the Kentucky Derby, setting a new track record of two minutes flat? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Northern Dancer. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Northern Dancer), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

for your help

		The Special Barnstar
		For your support ☕ Antiqueight chatter 20:46, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Zebra

Hello, I'm rewriting the zebra article and I'm having trouble writing about the evolutionary history. There are some contradictions in date divergence between these two articles, and these may contradict fossil dating of supposed extinct zebras. Can you help? LittleJerry (talk) 12:50, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

@LittleJerry:, I usually weasel and say, “study x says this and study y says that.” Or I gave the range, citing both sources. However, another good idea might be to post a question at the talkpage for Evolution of the horse and any mammal evolution Projects to see if the regulars there can offer thoughts on reconciliation of the studies. Someone who knows the methodology might be able to explain why there’s a difference and how much it matters. Montanabw^(talk) 15:36, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

FAC Mentorship

Hi Montanabw,

I'm not sure if Wikipedia:Mentoring for FAC was a Brian Boulton project and whether or not it is even still active. I saw your name under Wikipedia:Mentoring for FAC#Finding mentors and was pleased to see that "any subject" would do. :)

Are you still willing to do so?  :)

Thanks!

WILDSTAR ^talk 23:43, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

@WildStar:, I’m not super active on WP at the moment, but you might want to post at the talkpage for WP:QAI to see if there is anyone active there. I’ll also ping Wehwalt to see if he can recommend a mentor. Montanabw^(talk) 15:38, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

@Montanabw: No worries! Thanks for the tip! WILDSTAR ^talk 16:06, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

You might want to enquire at WT:FAC. I'm not up to mentoring at the present time but will be happy to review any article. All the best,--Wehwalt (talk) 21:00, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Talk:Blue nuthatch

Hi, an IP user saw your GA review from 2014 at Talk:Blue nuthatch and determined, after Fuhghettaboutit addressed your concerns three years later, that the article now meets GA standards, and pushed it through the GA process. I reverted these changes, but could you go through and finish up the GA review process that seems to be incomplete since 2014? I believe your comments needed to be on a separate GA subpage, and it's unclear if the article was even nominated properly. Eagles 24/7 (C) 13:39, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@Eagles247:, looks like everyone forgot about it. I closed the old GAN and the thing to do is to create a new nomination based on 2020 criteria, as opposed to six-years-past criteria. Montanabw^(talk) 20:52, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! Wasn't sure if all of your comments were actually addressed, or if you were willing to provide a new GA review for it, but regardless the IP promoting the article themself was out of process. Eagles 24/7 (C) 21:02, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

And the IP has been blocked by someone, as was the original IP who did the nom. Only one or two of the original concerns I raised were looked at, and after six years, the article would have changed so mich that a completely new review was in order. Montanabw^(talk) 21:04, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

May

May · Mary · Monteverdi

Thank you for article improvements in May! - DYK our list of people for whose life I'm thankful enough to improve their articles? - I have a FAC open, one of Monteverdi's exceptional works, in memory of Brian who passed me his collected sources. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:21, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

today a composer pictured who wrote a triple concerto for violin, harp and double bass, in honour of the composer who died and my brother who plays double bass. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:31, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Secretariat

Based on a glance at some of your edit history you appear to be conscientious and dedicated to quality so I thank you for your concern in Secretariat's article. Your reversal of my edit of the TC races for Secretariat reverts it to being the only TC winner with that setup. My edit for Secretariat's three TC races was done in order to adhere to Wikipedia:Consistency with all other TC winners at Wikipedia as well as for the large amount of individual TC race winners. There is little that is more frustrating than reading an infobox etc. then going to another article and having to search to find comparative info and then to another that is different than the first two, and so on. To digress a little, this inconsistency is especially noticeable with the tables for a race. There are a great many variations and I will try to put together info on this to one day soon post to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Horse racing page for members to assess and arrive at a consensus for a standardized table for at least North America races. Some I've come across involve variations of things such as color, distances, Grade, bolding, centering of columns, and more. Here area a couple to give you a small idea:
Monrovia Stakes
Belmont Derby
Yaddo Handicap D
Arlington Classic
Daytona Stakes

Hope you will help out on this. Plus, if you have significant interest in Secretariat you might like to check to see why "Secretariat" is titled "Secretariat (horse)" but "Man o' War isn't labeled as "(horse)." I think usage of the "Secretariat" alternate is less than that that of "Man o' War." Regardless, they both should be treated consistently and equal by Wikipedia. Thanks for your cooperation in now restoring Secretariat's TC race info to be consistent. It is much appreciated. Keep up the good work. Stretchrunner (talk) 13:28, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

@Stretchrunner:, I think this discuss needs to go back to the Horse Racing Project, where there are more interested users who can weigh in. While I am really glad to see enthusiastic new editors in the horse racing project, and it’s great to see your interest, you need to understand that you’ve got it backwards; most important race wins first is the best way to handle an infobox, providing the casual user the most important information at a glance. A chronological list of all races usually is included later in the body of the article. The expert here is probably Tigerboy1966, who has created thousands of race horse articles. Also, yes, I happen to know how disambiguation works, I’ve been editing WP since 2006 and have over 100,000 edits (!) The problem is that there are about 10,000 horse racing articles and maybe five active editors on the project, and so true consistency is probably going to be impossible, though an admirable goal. As for Secretariat, I‘ve been was on the team, along with the leader of the effort, @Jlvsclrk: who made it a featured article. I led the team on other featured articles, including American Pharoah, California Chrome, Mucho Macho Man, and Oxbow (horse). So please reconsider your position on some of this, as you may be inadvertently trying to reinvent a wheel that has been over a decade in development. Montanabw^(talk) 14:41, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the input. Having the TC info at the top would have been fine when Wikipedia got started. However, the reality is that once a viewer sees the infobox then, unlike in the article's body of text, if the TC races are at the top or bottom it really makes no difference to one's sight line. (Note: I have found a lot of bio articles with their HoF induction nowhere to be found until I got all the way to the bottom of the article. I put the HoF mention in the opening line as it is the ultimate honor and the ref to the NMR HoF also confirms a lot of our ensuing info). The problem is that in 2020 Secretariat's infobox is not consistent with the hundreds of other articles of the same situation. Lack of consistency denigrates Wikipedia and at this point in time who on earth is going to change all the others? In fact, having one different than all the others tells another editor it's fine just to do their own thing. (That's how we got all those race table variations.) @Jlvsclrk: is a very good contributor whose work I respect. Nonetheless, even though he is a fellow Canuck and we are It in the universe, he was incorrect at this point in time to apply a stand-alone opinion on this article. --- PS: So, are you going to fix Secretariat / Man o' War? --- PSS: Just for fun: I'm likely a rare editor in that I saw the '73 Belmont in person but as someone who never gambles I didn't buy a souvenir $2 ticket - damn! (racing would be out of business with people like me) Went to see the Arc a while ago; have my entry ticket plus the Treve €2 ticket all in a frame with the 11"x17" race program. Was planning on the Epsom Derby this year - damn COVID-19. Stretchrunner (talk) 16:10, 26 May 2020

This discussion belongs at the Secretariat article, but the short answer is no, we aren’t. It’s a featured article, it has appeared on the main page, and your suggestions, while interesting and worth discussion somewhere other than here, such as at the Horse Racing project, go against the consensus that promoted the article at FAC. Discuss this elsewhere, please, though I will leave the discussion here if we need to link it. Montanabw^(talk) 17:44, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Brumby page

Hello, can you please come to the Brumby page and have a look and give some suggestions. I was called to the page myself due and asked to mediate a better term than ferial, as we have a Federal judge that in a ruling has eluded to the fact that this label is a little misleading and I tend to agree as it can give a narrative that a could lead to its mistreatment. His term that he has chosen is Brumby Shenqijing (talk) 09:21, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

On it. With a boomerang. (WP:BOOMERANG, that is) Talk page watchers, pinging anyone interested to take a look at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Disruptive_behavior_at_Brumby. We have us a drama here. Montanabw^(talk) 17:52, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Equity Fountain

Hello. Could you please take pictures of the Equity Fountain?Zigzig20s (talk) 18:10, 11 June 2020 (UTC) @Zigzig20s:, I will. If I don't put something up in a few weeks, remind me. Montanabw^(talk) 18:09, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

thanks for your feedback

Hi Montanabw Thanks for your feedback on my draft page for Mariarosaria Taddeo - I've added some more content in line with your suggestions and would be grateful if you could take another look. Thanks very much. Sara — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sara0606 (talk • contribs) 15:07, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

June

June

Vespro della Beata Vergine

Thank you for improving articles in June. I can proudly present a FA, quite a gift after a year without, and a FL is in the making, comments welcome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:41, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Featured article length & Laura Harrier

FAC Laura Harrier is currently in a standstill. One editor supported the promotion to FA status but the current editor believes the article is too short to be a Featured Article. Could anyone assist with this article or quickly look over it for a review, or if not interested in reviewing it, let me know if it is indeed too short please? Factfanatic1 (talk) 13:44, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Pages moved

Not sure if it matters but someone undid all the moves from here: Talk:Campine_(chicken)#Requested_move_28_September_2017 to change natural disambiguation back to parenthetical. Iamnotabunny (talk) 19:29, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Oh man, we had a long discussion on this back then. Calling SMcCandlish. Montanabw^(talk) 19:38, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Category:Celle State Stud has been nominated for deletion

Category:Celle State Stud has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:23, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you in July

July

pale globe-thistle above the Rhine

Thank you for improving articles in July! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:11, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Horse color

Hi, I found this interesting thing, says horses can have black pigment on the tips of the hairs just like most other mammals. Not a reliable source unfortunately. Also, it seems Susan Ann Bowling has gone into science fiction writing. Iamnotabunny (talk) 14:39, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@Iamnotabunny:, definitely not a reliable source (read WP:SCIRS). The only two-toned hair shaft thing I’ve seen is with the Dun gene, and that one is REALLY interesting. The mules that writer pictures in the article actually exhibit pangare, which I don’t think has been studied much (and another article worth updating...). I think once they realized pangare wasn’t linked to seal brown, interest slowed. Sooty gene is also little studied. I’ve got a palomino whose dam was a liver chestnut, and she’s got sooty going on big time, yet its expression varies from year to year a bit, and from summer to winter. (She’s also got a dandy Bend-or spot too, she’s a model in several WP articles here...). Montanabw^(talk) 15:13, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, obviously not for wikipedia (didn't I say that?), perhaps I should have sent it by email instead, but I thought you might find it interesting. For me this made a lot of what I was wondering about before suddenly make sense, like why when I was looking for references to draw more accurate horses I only saw a certain pattern of sooty on bays and buckskins but not chestnuts and palominos. And yes, dun is interesting especially since nothing like it had been seen before in mammals. For the other extreme, you can see at agouti coloration genetics that agouti is involved in black and yellow/red banding of the hairs for every species listed there other than the donkeys and horses. I'd been curious about why equines would be different, but if they're not, it's one less thing for me to wonder about. I wouldn't be surprised if sooty turns out to have multiple types that come from multiple genes. Just imagine how confused we would be if we grouped dun and cream and all the other dilutions into "the dilution gene" and kept arguing about why on a chestnut base dilution sometimes makes the mane light and sometimes makes a dark stripe down the back. It's possible something similar could be happening with "the sooty gene". Too bad no one's been publishing about it, I guess we'll have to wait until there's interest and funding to find out. Pangare's got the same problem with the lack of research, unfortunately. I've already added the thing they found about the donkeys but I don't know of anything else new, and I've not been feeling up to editing much lately. Iamnotabunny (talk) 13:58, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Earliest Horse Riding

Hi Montanabw,

Apologies if i am making any mistakes in this message, i am still relatively new!

I had added to the section History of Horse Use in the Equestrianism article, stating that some people but it as early as 4200BC. You corrected it saying that Anthony does not put it that early. He does though in his book often put it back as far as that?

The page i quoted from says: "Riding began in the Pontic-Caspian steppes before 3700 BCE, or before the Botai-Tersek culture appeared in the Kazakh steppes. It may well have started before 4200 BCE. It spread outside the Pontic-Caspian steppes between 3700 and 3000 BCE, as shown by increases in horse bones in southeastern Europe, central Europe, the Caucasus, and northern Kazakhstan."

Thank you :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JaneBotha94 (talk • contribs) 11:58, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

can you provide the full cite with page number? I’ll double check it. Montanabw^(talk) 23:33, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

August

August

Sunflowers in Walsdorf

Thank you for improving articles in August! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:34, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

A first for me today: a featured list (= a featured topic in this case) on the Main page, see Wikipedia:Main Page history/2020 August 21, an initiative by Aza24 in memory of Brian. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:34, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Rhythm Is It! - I expanded that stub on my dad's birthday because we saw the film together back then, and were impressed. As a ref said: every educator should see it. Don't miss the trailer, for a starter. - A welcome chance to present yet another article by Brian on the Main page, Le Sacre du printemps. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

September

September

Dahlias in Walsdorf

Thank you for improving articles in September! - I was reminded of your RfA, when you "failed" over trying to help me. Did you know that the editor who caused you problems hasn't editing for long enough that I dared to ignore their purely personal preference. - Yesterday, I passed the place where I took the Dahlias pic, on my way to Kreuzkapelle. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:34, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Contributions

Just popping in to thank you for your contributions. I try to do this occasionally with certain editors that I run across. Yes, even those I have disagreements with. I missed not making a trip to Montana and Glacier NP this year. Very fond memories of Gunsight Lake and Jackson Glacier. We lived near Bridger Canyon in the foothills. I have been monitoring the recent wildfires in the area and it has really devastated some locally. I really hope you have a wonderful day and thank you again for your contributions. It makes Wikipedia just a little more relevant having you as an editor.Tsistunagiska (talk) 16:16, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

@Tsistunagiska:, thanks for the kind message. I too once lived in the Bozeman area, up through the late 80s. I am definitely tracking the fire... I once lived on the south side of the Story Hills, so some of the fire photos taken from I-90 show the ridgeline behind one of the places I used to live. I also worked on a horse ranch up Jackson Creek Road for a time. Was talking to my vet the other day, he said the Bridger Canyon Stallion Station property was affected by the fire. (You may recall it if you lived up Bridger, it was the big horse ranch that often had mares and foals running in a pasture visible from the road.) From a quick look at their public Facebook page, it looks like their indoor arena burned down. That's a real bummer, but apparently the other barns and the house was saved. Montanabw^(talk) 16:33, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

I am very familiar with B.C.S.S. It breaks my heart though I know buildings can be replaced. I just hope everyone stays safe. I spent most of my three years in Montana, as a pre-teen, running through the hills. My family took subsequent annual trips back. We spent so much time on the Crow reservation and in the parks. I can't tell you all the hours I have spent backpacking across the state.Tsistunagiska (talk) 16:47, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Heh, you probably have done more backcountry backpacking than me, and I'm a lifelong Montanan... but you know, work, school, etc... have you ever been to Two Dot or Dobson? (LOL) Montanabw^(talk) 16:52, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

@Montanabw: Just picking back up on this. I know exactly where Two Dot is and been there and through it many times. Do they still have the bar and grill off the main highway? Dobson? Hmmm, isn't that just outside one of the reservations? I think I remember they have a little county fair there. We were in Montana last summer. I took my daughter and niece on a road trip. We stayed in Eureka before spending the next few days in Glacier NP. I took them to see the peaks outside Bozeman but we didn't stay long before heading to Yellowstone.Tsistunagiska (talk) 15:17, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Heh, sounds like you’ve been through Two Dot more than I have! All those little towns have a bar and grill, only question is whether it’s open at any given moment, LOL! Well, glad you’ve enjoyed your trips up here. Yeah, Dobson is on Hwy 2 by Fort Belknap on the hi-line. Montanabw^(talk) 17:11, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Montana women's suffrage Comment

Heya! I thought I'd drop these on your page to look at. I just finished List of Montana suffragists, Timeline of women's suffrage in Montana and Women's suffrage in Montana. There's a ton of redlinks, but the most interesting one is Clara McAdow. Do you have any info on her? She was apparently a mine owner or some such and a suffragist. :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 17:17, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Megalibrarygirl Talk-page Stalker just stalking, I will add her to the talk page on WIR and see if we get some hits from anyone searching for sources.--Tsistunagiska (talk) 17:54, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Tsistunagiska! She seems like an interesting woman! :) Megalibrarygirl (talk) 18:15, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

@Megalibrarygirl: - A fellow editor left these items to look at concerning Clara McAdow:

Here are a few newspaper articles (via Newspapers.com) that might help:

• Died Worth Millions
• She's a Rarity, Even in the West
• A Woman Who Knew How to Make Money Note that article continues below image.
• She Made the Mine Pay
• Mrs. Clara McAdow

Eddie Blick (talk) 02:09, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

--Tsistunagiska (talk) 20:32, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

October harvest

Dona nobis pacem

16 October memories - eight years that we miss Br'er Rabbit --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:29, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Beautiful Main page today, don't miss the pic by a banned user (of a 2013 play critical of refugee politics), nor a related video, interviews in German, but music and scene. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:52, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi there

Montana,

I hope your remember me. If you need help, I'm an editor who created a number of Harness Racing articles.

Two of which were Bruce Nickells and Fast Clip. My father and Bruce co-owned Clip. I was thrilled today today to find two videos at Youtube featuring FC. Here[21] and here[22]. The second is where we finished 2nd in the 1972 Little Brown Jug to Strike Out even though Clip broke the world record at the time. Clip timed in 156.4 and the record being 157.0 for a 3yo pacer on a half mile track. Of course Strike Out went 156.3. SO was a great horse.

The other video says Bruce Nickells was driving Clip but it was Ted Taylor. Anyway I enjoyed finding these.

Just thought I'd share them with you. I see you haven't edited in a while. Hope everything is well with you. Cheers!...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 10:38, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

those sound like awesome finds! I have not been super active but I am doing well. Working on a different project in real life, feel free to drop me an email if you want an update. Montanabw^(talk) 15:58, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Tell us about your experiences editing the English Wikipedia!

Hi Montanabw!

I am conducting an interview study about how Wikipedia editors collaborate in the English edition of Wikipedia. The project description is on the WMF meta wiki: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Characterizing_Collaboration_Models_in_the_EN,_FR_and_ES_Language_Editions_of_Wikipedia.

This research study is part of a larger project where we are trying to understand how editors collaborate in different language editions of Wikipedia. I was looking through our team’s prior dataset and came across conversations that you have had on the Bud Dunn article talk page. I am interested in learning more about those conversations.

Would you be willing to participate in a 1 hour interview about your experience? The interview will take place virtually over Skype, Hangout, Zoom or phone.

Our research team will make our best efforts to keep your participation confidential. Participation in our study is voluntary. If you are willing to participate in this interview, or if you have additional questions please email me. Or, if you are concerned about direct email you can contact me through Wikipedia’s mail feature.

If you are interested or have any other questions, please let us know.

via Email: tbipat@uw.edu or English Wikipedia: tbipat Tbipat (talk) 22:39, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

December with Women in Red

Women in Red | December 2020, Volume 6, Issue 12, Numbers 150, 173, 178, 182, 183 Online events: New: Women who died in 2020 | Philanthropists Continuing initiatives: #1day1woman | BLM/Anti-discrimination Contest (Oct-Nov-Dec): Women in Asia Other ways to participate: Help us plan future events Join the conversations on our talkpage Become a member Opt-out of notifications Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 16:42, 26 November 2020 (UTC) via MassMessaging

November

November

Thank you for article work in November! Look today at BB music, a little crusade of mine ;) - his birthday on St Cecilia's day, patron saint of music. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:41, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Today's DYK: to be sung "happily" --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:49, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Flyer22 and WanderingWanda arbitration case opened

The Arbitration Committee has accepted and opened the Flyer22 and WanderingWanda case at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Flyer22 and WanderingWanda. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Flyer22 and WanderingWanda/Evidence. Please add your evidence by December 30, which is when the evidence phase is scheduled to close. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Flyer22 and WanderingWanda/Workshop, which closes January 13, 2020. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. To opt out of future mailings please see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Flyer22 and WanderingWanda/Notification list. For the Arbitration Committee, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) via MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:03, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

	Merry Christmas Montanabw
	Hi Montanabw, I wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas and a very happy and healthy New Year, Thank you for all your contributions to Wikipedia,    –Davey2010Talk 19:59, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

	Merry Christmas Montanabw
	Hi Montanabw, I wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas and a very happy and healthy New Year, Thank you for all your contributions to Wikipedia,    –Davey2010Talk 19:59, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Mentoring for FAC

Hi, I'm a Wikipedian interested in trying to advance an article I wrote to Featured Article status and saw that you were willing to act as a mentor in that process. I've been an active Wikipedia editor for over 2 years now, but only recently have I been trying to improve some articles I've written to Good Article status. The article I'm interested in getting to FA, James Oglethorpe Monument, has recently been bumped up to GA and I feel that with some editing and further improving, it could meet the criteria for FA. As a result, I'm reaching out to you for assistance both in the general FA process and in any way I can improve the page itself. Thanks, and I hope to hear back from you soon! -JJonahJackalope (talk) 01:32, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Slow as Christmas!!

🔔🎁⛄️🎅🏻 Atsme 💬 📧 04:08, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas! Iamnotabunny (talk) 15:05, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Natalis soli invicto!

		Natalis soli invicto!
		Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and distraction-free. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:09, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

The Signpost: 28 December 2020

• News and notes: Year-end legal surprises cause concern, but Public Domain Day is imminent

• In the media: Concealment, data journalism, a non-pig farmer, and some Bluetick Hounds

• Arbitration report: 2020 election results

• Opinion: How to make your factory's safety and labor issues disappear

• Featured content: Very nearly ringing in the New Year with "Blank Space" – but we got there in time.

• Traffic report: 2020 wraps up

• News from the WMF: What Wikipedia saw during election week in the U.S., and what we’re doing next

• Recent research: Predicting the next move in Wikipedia discussions

• Essay: Subjective importance

• Op-Ed: An unforgettable year we might wish to forget

• Gallery: Angels in the architecture

• Humour: 'Twas the Night Before Wikimas

* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 04:25, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

A New Year With Women in Red!

Women in Red | January 2021, Volume 7, Issue 1, Numbers 182, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188 Online events: New: Climate and environment | Public domain Contest (Jan-Feb-Mar): Africa contest Year-long initiative: Women's rights Continuing: #1day1woman | Women who died in 2020 Other ways to participate: Join the conversations on our talkpage | Help us plan future events Become a member | Opt-out of notifications Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 03:02, 29 December 2020 (UTC) via MassMessaging

ITN recognition for Charley Pride

On 13 December 2020, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Charley Pride, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. —Bagumba (talk) 08:51, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Hope for 2021

take courage

Thank you for improving article quality in December, and good wishes for a time of transition. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:28, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Have a good new year 2021! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:14, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Happy new year!

A wish for the new year

A quote from Gargantua and Pantagruel by Rabelais; it is taken from the manuscript of Jules Massenet's opera Panurge, in the composer's own hand. It is my greeting of choice for the new year, because it encourages us to live joyfully, and try not to take life too seriously...while quaffing whatever beverage we choose, naturally. This has been a challenging year, to say the least; I hope that 2021 may bring a fresh start, and better days ahead. May the new year bring you joy and peace...and many days of fruitful editing.

--Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 01:26, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Flyer

Thanks for your insightful edits at the Flyer page. After so many years here I am proud of my work and I don't regret a minute of the time I have spent here, but while not really burned out one does eventually get sick of some of the politics here. Never did I ever think that Flyer would be sanctioned for her conduct here. I've known her for many years as she worked on some of our more difficult woman's issues articles and in all that time I never saw her be uncivil. What I did see was the huge amount of time that she was willing to put into literally page after page of explaining why this or that was the factual and encyclopedic manner in which to write our articles. I can only guess that those that feel she is guilty of uncivil behavior have no idea of what she has had to put up with for the many years she has spent here defending our woman's issues articles. Here we are really needing good female editors and we are chasing one of the best away... I'm willing to bet that none of those that voice objections of her will be stepping in to fill the void that her absence has created. Gandydancer (talk) 20:38, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Gandydancer Have they ruled already? I've been following it closely but been away for a couple of weeks. I find it to be a horrible travesty to this point and really another black eye on Wikipedia, whether I agree with everything that lead up to the arbitration or not. I do think that, before I ever get to that point I would just rather walk away. I've come close to it many times due to the politics and sham policies/guidelines. --ARoseWolf (Talk) 21:52, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Proposed task force

Hey, Montanabw!! We're missing you here on the project. Hope all is well. I was thinking about starting a task force for women involved in a wide range of English & Western equestrian sports as trainers and/or competitors, including rodeo, racing, cutting, jumping, etc. Your thoughts? Pinging Dawnleelynn, White Arabian Filly, and Ealdgyth for input. Atsme 💬 📧 16:27, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi Atsme. I thought some of the existing task forces were really good, while others seem to be in progress. I think I could be helpful even though I am not a trainer or competitor. You've seen the wide range of rodeo articles I edit. Let me know when there's something to do. I am working full-time now. dawnleelynn^(talk) 04:01, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Sorry to be late to the party on my own talkpage. I think it’s a great idea, I think you could cross-post at Women in Red. I think “women in equestrian sport” is a good title, and I support it. I’m kind of busy in RL, and also distracted by RL stuff (work inclided), so I’m not going to be a lot of help, but if good wishes count, I’m in. Montanabw^(talk) 15:59, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

February 2021 at Women in Red

Women in Red | February 2021, Volume 7, Issue 2, Numbers 184, 186, 188, 189, 190, 191 Online events: New: Black women | Classicists | Folklore Contest (Jan/Feb/Mar): Africa Year-long campaign: Women's rights Continuing: #1day1woman Other ways to participate: Join the conversations on our talkpage | Help us plan future events Become a member | Opt-out of notifications Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Rosiestep (talk) 14:59, 27 January 2021 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Welcome to the 2021 WikiCup!

Happy New Year and Happy New WikiCup! The competition begins today and all article creators, expanders, improvers and reviewers are welcome to take part. If you have already signed up, your submissions page can be found here. If you have not yet signed up, you can add your name here and the judges will set up your submissions page. Any questions on the rules or on anything else should be directed to one of the judges, or posted to the WikiCup talk page. Signups will close at the end of January, and the first round will end on 26 February; the 64 highest scorers at that time will move on to round 2. We thank Vanamonde93 and Godot13, who have retired as judges, and we thank them for their past dedication. The judges for the WikiCup this year are Sturmvogel 66 (talk · contribs · email) and Cwmhiraeth (talk · contribs · email). Good luck! MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 11:11, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

QAI

I tried to give a good start by updating the QAI project topics. Please check and correct, - did you know that you belong to project's few members from the beginning who are still active? For moar private "happy new year" see here. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:10, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Happy Wikipedia 20, - proud of a little bit on the Main page today, and 5 years ago, and 10 years ago, look: create a new style - revive - complete! I sang in the revival mentioned. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:19, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

... and today Jerome Kohl, remembered in friendship --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:04, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

The Signpost: 31 January 2021

• News and notes: 1,000,000,000 edits, board elections, virtual Wikimania 2021

• Special report: Wiki reporting on the United States insurrection

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Horse logging

FYI I just moved Draft:Horse logging to draft space. I'll have to set it aside for a while but if anyone else (like you) wants to expand it, great! ☆ Bri (talk) 08:11, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Nine years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:04, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Today, we have a DYK about Wilhelm Knabe, who stood up for future with the striking school children when he was in his 90s, - a model, - see here. - Thank you for your position in the arb case request, - I feel I have to stay away, but there are conversations further down on the page, in case of interest, - in a nutshell: "... will not improve kindness, nor any article". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:39, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

March 2021 at Women in Red

Women in Red | March 2021, Volume 7, Issue 3, Numbers 184, 186, 188, 192, 193 Online events: New: Art+Activism | VisibleWikiWomen Contest (Jan/Feb/Mar): Africa Year-long campaign: Women's rights Continuing: #1day1woman Other ways to participate: Join the conversations on our talkpage | Help us plan future events Become a member | Opt-out of notifications Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Rosiestep (talk) 18:48, 26 February 2021 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Arbitration Case Opened

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/RexxS. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/RexxS/Evidence. Please add your evidence by March 13, 2021, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/RexxS/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, SQL^{Query me!} 04:52, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Your analogy at wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/RexxS

I think your in family analogy is very useful. It fits my experience in raising a son and a daughter, especially the part about examining the behavior of both parties. My partner and I would play either of the two roles—usually with the same results and rarely clear cut. Thank you for weighing in. Interesting that L's comment in opposition focussed on the father's role and paternalism. In so many of the disputes on Wikipedia maturity (and lack thereof) play a major role. It is difficult, I think, for an organization in which the active members rarely, if ever, meet in person to play a socializing role. Which is to say, complete the work of parenting. The work I did, before retiring, was intensely collaborative and involved highly competitive strong personalities. But working in close proximity helped resolve interpersonal problems and prioritize the work.

Can you think of analogies from horse culture B^)

— Neonorange (Phil) 17:57, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

@Neonorange:, I can think of multiple horse analogies, some contradictory. I guess the only one that comes to mind now is, “this ain’t our first rodeo.” Montanabw^(talk) 18:49, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Jumping in here. And Montana's comment implied another important fact. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anyone can edit but it is not the encyclopedia where everyone is automatically an expert in every article. Respect for someone with more knowledge than one has and willing to learn from that person is important. I always told my students respect the discipline (in my case the art form) and take the time to learn from experts who probably have years of experience beyond yours. Littleolive oil (talk) 19:07, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Difficult for me to come up with analogies since I've been away from horses since my retired circus draft horse in my childhood on the farm. My brother, still on the farm, says a horse is comfortable when the rules are clear. The rider lets the horse know where to go, the horse decides where to step. His is highly trained, but, being from Montana but now in Georgia, still wonders when Winter Is Coming.

— Phil

In network television news, for expertise, we set up to interview one. On a breaking story there was little time to scour references, though we did have staff that could fact and source check. For us in the field it was important to smell when interviews needed extraordinary corroboration. That I find useful in Wikipedia. Assuming good faith does not require assuming expertise. (As long as you act as if you assume so). On the other hand, for a long lead time story, as for Sixty Minutes, almost every fact was pined down before any tape was rolled. Two different worlds here—forty people for twenty-four hours for an evening news story, twenty-four people for forty days for Sixty Minutes. For Wikipedia, likely one person for forty hours for a meaty article. 'Course Wikipedia pay is less B^( Thanks for the glimpse into your work experience. I find it useful to have insights into editors' approaches here.

— Neonorange (Phil) 01:27, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

The Signpost: 28 February 2021

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April editathons from Women in Red

Women in Red | April 2021, Volume 7, Issue 4, Numbers 184, 188, 194, 195, 196 Online events: New: Plants & gardens | Gender studies New Contest (Apr/May/Jun): Women in Europe contest Year-long campaign: Women's rights Continuing: #1day1woman Other ways to participate: Join the conversations on our talkpage | Help us plan future events Become a member | Opt-out of notifications Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 20:16, 22 March 2021 (UTC) via MassMessaging

The Signpost: 28 March 2021

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Thank you ...

... for improving articles in March! On Bach's birthday --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:14, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Today: Bach's cantata composed for today, - perhaps listen. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:53, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you also for what you said for RexxS --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:05, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion

An article you created or have significantly contributed to has been nominated for deletion. The article is being discussed at the deletion discussion, located here. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 14:03, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

Alice Greenough Orr

Hi, Montana! Please don't remove the copyvio blanking template from any article unless you're sure that it was added in genuine error or as vandalism. In the case of Alice Greenough Orr, it's there for a good reason – the page was created by Billy Hathorn, one of our biggest copyright offenders of all time and the subject of a massive CCI. If you compare the current version of the page with the last version edited by Hathorn you can see that it remains substantially unchanged. ALL text added by Hathorn needs to be removed, whether or not it now appears to be copyvio – his history is such that we presume all his contributions to be unacceptable. The page can be rewritten at this special page; to be useable, the rewrite should not contain any material from Hathorn's version of the page. An alternative is to wait for it to be deleted and then re-create it from scratch. Thanks, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:13, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with your assessment that this version is substantially the same as the one made by the sock account many, many years ago. When I ran toolforge, I looked at the top two articles flagged as possibly having issues, One pinned at 16% the other at 12%. Nonetheless, they highlighted some phrases that matched up and I took a look at those and rewrote them. If you really think there are still specific problematic areas, go ahead and note them at the talkpage, but seriously I think it’s fixed. Also, having done some copyvio cleanup myself, it is important to note that just because somebody committed mass copyvio much of the time does not mean every single thing they did was a copyvio. Montanabw^(talk) 21:15, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you ...

wild garlic

... for improving articles in April! Remember Joseph (opera)? I tried again ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:25, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

The Signpost: 25 April 2021

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Trainers/Jockeys

Haven't forgotten to make changes to the female categories. Will try to get it done soon. I have to admit, though, I really, really wanted to make a gender comment on trainer Rice on the Broadway Stakes (NYB) but bit my tongue and said nothing as gender is irrelevant.Stretchrunner II (talk) 21:29, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

May 2021 at Women in Red

Women in Red | May 2021, Volume 7, Issue 5, Numbers 184, 188, 197, 198 Online events: New: May Mays | Mental Health Contest (Apr/May/Jun): Women in Europe contest Year-long campaign: Women's rights Continuing: #1day1woman See also: Wikimedia District of Columbia: 100 DC Women contest Wikimedia CEE Spring: Central and Eastern European Women contest The Wikipedia Library: #1Lib1Ref Other ways to participate: Join the conversations on our talkpage | Help us plan future events Become a member | Opt-out of notifications Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Rosiestep (talk) 21:36, 28 April 2021 (UTC) via MassMessaging

June 2021 at Women in Red

Women in Red | June 2021, Volume 7, Issue 6, Numbers 184, 188, 196, 199, 200, 201 Online events: New: Wiki Loves Pride | June Junes | Jewellers & Watchmakers Contest (Apr/May/Jun): Women in Europe contest Year-long campaign: Women's rights Continuing: #1day1woman Other ways to participate: Join the conversations on our talkpage | Help us plan future events Become a member | Opt-out of notifications Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Rosiestep (talk) 18:50, 28 May 2021 (UTC) via MassMessaging

May thanks

Thank you for improving articles in May! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:19, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

See my talk today, - it's rare that a person is pictured when a dream comes true, and that the picture is shown on the Main page on a meaningful day. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:33, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

July 2021 at Women in Red

Women in Red | July 2021, Volume 7, Issue 7, Numbers 184, 188, 202, 203, 204, 205 Online events: New: July Julies | Finance, economics & banking | Olympic & Paralympic Games New contest (Jul/Aug/Sep): Latin America contest Continuing: Women's rights | #1day1woman See also: "Mind your elders" Other ways to participate: Join the conversations on our talkpage. Help plan and coordinate future events. Become a member. You can always opt-out of notifications. Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Rosiestep (talk) 16:06, 22 June 2021 (UTC) via MassMessaging

The Signpost: 27 June 2021

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June thanks

Thank you for improving articles in June, with some impressions of places, flowers and music for you. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:00, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

added: missing SlimVirgin, and RMF festival opening --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:37, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

GAN Backlog Drive - July 2021

Good article nominations | July 2021 Backlog Drive
July 2021 Backlog Drive: This Thursday, July 1, a one-month backlog drive for good article nominations will begin. Barnstars will be awarded based on the number, length, and age, of articles reviewed. Interested in taking part? You can sign up here.
Other ways to participate: Join the conversations on our talkpage
You're receiving this message because you have conducted 10+ good article reviews or participated in the March backlog drive. Click here to opt out of any future messages. --Usernameunique

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:31, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

WikiCup 2021 July newsletter

The third round of the 2021 WikiCup has now come to an end. Each of the sixteen contestants who made it into the fourth round had at least 294 points, and our top six scorers all had over 600 points. They were:

• The Rambling Man, with 1825 points from 3 featured articles, 44 featured article reviews, 14 good articles, 30 good article reviews and 10 DYKs. In addition, he completed a 34-article good topic on the EFL Championship play-offs.
• Epicgenius, a New York specialist, with 1083 points from 2 featured article reviews, 18 good articles, 30 DYKs and plenty of bonus points.
• Bloom6132, with 869 points from 11 DYKs, all with bonus points, and 54 "In the news" items, mostly covering people who had recently died.
• Gog the Mild, with 817 points from 3 featured articles on historic battles in Europe, 5 featured article reviews and 3 good articles.
• Hog Farm, with 659 points from 2 featured articles and 2 good articles on American Civil War battles, 18 featured article reviews, 2 good articles, 6 good article reviews and 4 DYKs.
• BennyOnTheLoose, a snooker specialist and new to the Cup, with 647 points from a featured article, 2 featured article reviews, 6 good articles, 6 good article reviews and 3 DYKs.

In round three, contestants achieved 19 featured articles, 7 featured lists, 106 featured article reviews, 72 good articles, 1 good topic, 62 good article reviews, 165 DYKs and 96 ITN items. We enter the fourth round with scores reset to zero; any content promoted after the end of round 3 but before the start of round 4 can be claimed in round 4. Please also remember that you must claim your points within 14 days of "earning" them (one contestant in round 3 lost out because of this). When doing GARs, please make sure that you check that all the GA criteria are fully met.

If you are concerned that your nomination—whether it is at good article nominations, a featured process, or anything else—will not receive the necessary reviews, please list it on Wikipedia:WikiCup/Reviews Needed (remember to remove your listing when no longer required). Questions are welcome on Wikipedia talk:WikiCup, and the judges are reachable on their talk pages or by email. If you wish to start or stop receiving this newsletter, please feel free to add or remove yourself from Wikipedia:WikiCup/Newsletter/Send. Judges: Sturmvogel 66 (talk) and Cwmhiraeth Cwmhiraeth (talk) MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 09:30, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Articles for Creation July 2021 Backlog Elimination Drive

Hello Montanabw:

WikiProject Articles for creation is holding a month long Backlog Drive!
The goal of this drive is to eliminate the backlog of unreviewed articles. The drive is running until 31 July 2021.

Barnstars will be given out as awards at the end of the drive.
There is currently a backlog of over 1400 articles, so start reviewing articles. We're looking forward to your help!

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) on behalf of Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for Creation at 21:54, 7 July 2021 (UTC). If you do not wish to recieve future notification, please remove your name from the mailing list.

Category:Barrel racing

The Barrel racing article says " Though both sexes compete at amateur and youth levels, in collegiate and professional ranks, it is usually a rodeo event for women”, so it doesn't seem to fit in the category "women's sport", as men also participate, even if not "usually". Everything else in that category is "Women's xyz", and if it's in that cat I can see "barrel racers" being made a subcat of "sportswomen", which is where we came in. But then we're in a field where apparently most rodeo events are not rodeo events, going by previous edit summary, so it's all pretty confusing. You've presumably seen the previous discussion (I noticed you hadn't been editing for a couple of weeks, hope you were ok). Your mentee does not seem to understand categories. PamD 05:16, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Where is this “discussion” occurring? Barrel racing is an iconic rodeo event, and absolutely a rodeo event. It is also probably 99% women, other than a few kids at very, very local events. The rodeo navbox is probably a good tool to guide the categories, though some “events” like wild cow milking are more like joke events run at intermission. Montanabw^(talk) 13:02, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I think you were pinged but you were away. See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Categories#Category:American_barrel_racers. (Was on my phone when I posted the above so it was tricky to find it and link, sorry). PamD 16:26, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

There's a degree of WP:OWNership here with "my mentor oversees here" (ie yourself) and the later assertion that the Category:Canadian barrel racers is too small and only exists because of a WiR editathon (ie "not written by me, therefore not of any signifiance"?). (Category talk:Canadian barrel racers). The categories, and the relationship between people categories and event categories, in the rodeo area could do with some attention, I suggest. But I'd better back out: I know nothing about rodeo, though I do know rather more than some people about categories. Over to you. PamD 16:31, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

I think the problem is that you two got into a bit of a pissing match. Tone matters. Sometimes, it’s best to recognize that when someone has done a lot of hard work, they will collaborate to improve things, but if you go in with a “this is terrible” tone, it doesn’t help. Also, consensus changes constantly—I had my head handed to me on a plate a few years back for creating too many smallcats, so be aware that people act in good faith. And everyone just try to be a little kinder, eh? Montanabw^(talk) 16:59, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Breaking my renewed WikiBreak to comment: "A mess" may have been blunt, but was accurate, with "Barrel racers" a subcategory of "American barrel racers" (as raised by the OP in that discussion) and multiple people incorrectly assigned both those categories (now fixed by SerAmantio). Yes, I could have expressed it more gently: "Some confusion here" would have been kinder. But the ownership responses, the "my mentor is the only one who can say anything here" (evidently not knowing that pinging you wasn't going to work anyway), the red-herring discussion about FAs, the misreading someone else's post and calling it "crazy" (rude, even as slang) ... perhaps Rodeo is one of those wikiprojects, like Milhist, where there are some interesting personalities around and outsiders need to tread with great caution. Ah well. Stuff to do in real life, will log out again now. PamD 10:48, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

I think you mean WP:STEWARDship not ownership. The only consistent editors in rodeo are myself, montanabw, and atsme. We hold the line against all the trolls, vandals, and poor editing. For more than five years. And you conveniently forgot I agreed with you about the categories; it’s just my solution that was different. dawnleelynn^(talk) 14:39, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

• PamD, Thanks for stopping by, and some thoughts. The hot button word here is “ownership.” People who are Stewards of an area (see WP:STEWARDSHIP) are not engaging in ownership when they say “what are you doing?” (even when they go a bit WP:MASTODON and say “WTF are you doing?”) In 15 Years of editing Wikipedia, I have never seen a discussion end well where an accusation of ownership gets thrown out. Here, it isn’t helpful to engage in a debate over who used inflammatory language first, but maybe mull over whether it would’ve been a better idea to say, “we need to clean up and re-organize these categories to be more in line with [ insert guideline here].” I know Wikipedia is not a social club, I know people with large areas of focus can get a bit abrupt (raising hand… clearing my 6000-item watchlist changed my life…), but AGF and the civility guidelines are not applied in the spirit that they were originally intended nearly often enough. So Pam and Dawn, I’d like everyone here to just bury the hatchet. You’re all good folks. Montanabw^(talk) 14:45, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Proposed Women in Green Editathon

Hello Montanabw -- With the goal of helping to progress the WikiProject Women in Green (WiG) women’s rights-themed GA nomination goal for 2021, I’m proposing that WiG hold a special editathon event in the fall (maybe October/November?). I can assist with logistics, but I need to know how much interest/support there might be from WiG participants first. Please let me know what you think in the talk page conversation! All the best, Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:12, 20 July 2021 (UTC)

Link

Looks like

• http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/520446/the-decline-of-wikipedia/

has moved to

• https://www.technologyreview.com/2013/10/22/175674/the-decline-of-wikipedia/

Hyacinth (talk) 04:35, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

July corner

On DYK today, two songs, a morning song that a cousin gave to me, about the many meanings of rising, and the other praying for the courage to take the necessary steps. The morning song is a GA, - I should write more given my initials, but I also want to care for articles of those who recently died (now Esther Béjarano), and of psalms in memory of Yoninah, - more missing than there. - Thank you for improving articles in July, - I come a few days earlier than normally because the bloom is fading already ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:47, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Did you know that Vivaldi composed cello sonatas? I didn't until I took the pic. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:35, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

August Editathons from Women in Red

Women in Red | August 2021, Volume 7, Issue 8, Numbers 184, 188, 204, 205, 206, 207 Online events: New: Indigenous women | Women's leadership & empowerment Contest (Jul/Aug/Sep): Latin America contest Continuing: Olympic & Paralympic Games | Women's rights | #1day1woman See also: Interwiki Women Collaboration Other ways to participate: Join the conversations on our talkpage. Help plan and coordinate future events. Become a member. You can always opt-out of notifications. Follow us on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 22:26, 23 July 2021 (UTC) via MassMessaging

The Signpost: 25 July 2021

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Reviving an old conversation

We had a short conversation in 2016 about a possible bio for Nicole Hamilton, currently a redirect to Hamilton C shell. You'll recall my concern about personally contributing. But someone else has created a Draft:Nicole Hamilton page that might be a helpful start. I've had nothing to do with the content; it just came up for me in a search. Might you take a look to see what you think, please? Msnicki (talk) 16:29, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Will do. Will respond at your talk. Montanabw^(talk) 18:15, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Photo of temporary plastic post for Electric fence

Hello,

In 2007 you added a hidden comment to the article Electric fence requesting that you be reminded to add a photo if it hadn't appeared in a few weeks (diff). It's been a bit more than a few weeks now, but I hope that this reminder is useful to you. If you no longer have said photo, please let me know so I can remove the hidden comment. Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 08:07, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

As you haven't responded, I presume it's okay if I remove the hidden comment. I'll wait another day or two though, in case you missed my message. DesertPipeline (talk) 17:51, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

@DesertPipeline: as there was a photo of a fence with step in posts was added to the article, it was obvious that the hidden comment was inadvertently left behind and could be removed. I did a bit of other cleanup. By the way, it’s better to just fix things than to tag-bomb articles… 😉Montanabw^(talk) 20:53, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

What do you mean by your last sentence? I only tag problems in articles when I don't have the ability to resolve them myself (or sometimes when I intend to come back later and fix them, but tag them anyway in case someone fixes them before I get around to it). DesertPipeline (talk) 21:11, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah, looks like it was the edit right before yours that tag-bombed. Never mind, I still think you could have been WP:BRD and just remove the 14-year-old hidden comment, but I do appreciate that you asked.Montanabw^(talk) 22:33, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

No problem – I've made that sort of mistake before too where I accidentally attributed an edit to someone else by misreading the history page :) Also, I probably would've removed it if you weren't still active, but since you are, I wanted to check that it wasn't something you'd forgotten for a very long time – that's something else that's probably happened to me before :) DesertPipeline (talk) 10:40, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

August thanks

August songs

Thank you for improving articles in August! I try, today DYK for a GA by a banned user, - remember making Great Dismal Swamp maroons a GA? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:20, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Today: Teresa Żylis-Gara, the second soprano to impress me on stage, died, - long live the memory of her beautiful singing, remembered with thanks. 28 August 2013 was a special concert day: look. After Hillbillyholiday gave me a tree. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:53, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

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September thanks

September songs

Thank you for improving articles in September! On Peace Day, Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:59, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Today: a woman in red (Omas gegen Rechts), two who died under "in memoriam" and LouisAlain missed - my first editnotice read: "Every editor is a human being" which is quoted from a comment by Geometry guy in a 2012 discussion on WP:AN. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:54, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

... with a ping to Floq (where the grapes are already archived) for some reasonable admin's look into the long thread perhaps - nutshell on my talk --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:39, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

October 2021 at Women in Red

Women in Red | October 2021, Volume 7, Issue 10, Numbers 184, 188, 209, 210, 211 Online events: New: Women in STEM New Contest (Oct/Nov/Dec): Women in Oceania contest Continuing: Women's rights | #1day1woman Special event: 12 October: Ada Lovelace Day 24-Hour Global Edit-a-thon See also: Women in Green Good Article Edit-a-thon Other ways to participate: Join the conversations on our talkpage. Help plan and coordinate future events. Become a member. You can always opt-out of notifications. Follow Women in Red on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

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Not going to wade in there, so just putting this here

"Toxicity" could also, maybe, just barely conceivably, be due to people who call those they disagree with "disgruntled trolls"... --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:46, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Floquenbeam, which brings up yet other problems. The first is off-wiki trolling, which yes, is trolling. The second is that on wiki, we too often sweep problems under the rug in the name of “civility.” I was specifically thinking of things like this — which was on-wiki. If that wasn’t a disgruntled troll —with a throwaway sock account — then at the least, we have a definitions issue. I would also suggest that anyone who was permanently banned from Wikipedia is more problematic than merely “those they disagree with.” Not all banned users are banned for troll-like behavior, of course, but they generally have been given multiple opportunities to mend their ways and failed to do so. People can have legitimate disagreements and high emotions without crossing into troll territory. So I guess I do respectfully disagree with what I think you are implying— Yes, unfortunately there is such a thing as a disgruntled troll. It is not the same as an editor one disagrees with. (FWIW, Of the oppose !votes at my RfA, nine are from now-blocked users, at least two of whom were identified as sock account (to be fair, three of the supports are now blocked too). Montanabw^(talk) 17:31, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, yes, of course there are actual trolls; I was trying to gently refer to sweeping generalizations. But on a more interesting note, while this isn't a scientific study, I have definitely noticed that, if you go back to old RFA's, it seems the older the RFA the higher the percentage of blocked/banned users supporting and opposing. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:40, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

That would be an interesting study as well, the percentage of blocked/banned users correlated to the year they started editing or something. Is there a correlation between length of editing and reaching a breaking point? Montanabw^(talk) 17:48, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

See User:MastCell#The Cynic's Guide to Wikipedia, Item #2. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:07, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

• Regarding the initial comment: on reflection, i think i was misreading you. there are certainly disgruntled trolls who stir up all kinds of disruption and bad feelings. With your 9 red-linked, blocked opposers, you certainly got a lot of slimy comments you didn't deserve from trolls. If I can try to salvage my comment, I was trying to say that I thought in general trolls aren't the main source of toxicity in so many WP discussions and processes, instead it's lots of "normal" editors losing their temper (and a subset of those realizing there is often no consequence and so repeating it), or editors in general becoming more partisan (in politics and in everything else). You may disagree with that - it's admittedly a hot take - and if so then we disagree. But I implied you were equating trolls with people you disagree with, which was a stupid and unfair thing for me to say. --Floquenbeam (talk) 18:06, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

  Heh, understood. I agree that toxicity is definitely not the only problem with the RFA process, and the problem of people losing their temper and their only too-human errors becoming grounds for the civility guidelines and policies to be used as a sword instead of the shield is definitely another factor. Montanabw^(talk) 18:38, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

  Remember you own RfA? Ruined by your Joseph (opera) indignation? Sometimes just u wait. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:45, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

• If I may be so bold as a talk page stalker of Montana, someone I truly admire, and having limited knowledge of this particular instance(s) but having watched and participated in a number of administrative board discussions and RFA's over the last several months (not at all saying I am an expert after such a small amount of time) I find we are at the same impasse with regards to civility as has faced many communities of people when it comes to the definition of self-defense. There is no doubt that countless actions of incivility happen in our community every day. I agree with @Floquenbeam that it generally happens between active editors who are here doing their normal routine. Most incivility happens in the normal course of discussion. It almost always occurs when one side or both sides get frustrated and possibly angry over content disputes. It is almost always associated with feelings of offense because we all have those and there in lies the issue. The balance between a response due to a feeling of offense and the literal action of offense. I will say that empathy has something to do with it too, or a lack of it, especially on the side of offenders. One reason we, using that loosely to represent the community, allow our tempers to cause us to lash out is because we really don't see the human on the other side in that moment. Their humanity has been devalued by a multitude of factors not solely caused by anything to do with this encyclopedia. The kaleidoscope of colors found in humanity are being squeezed and pushed to blend together by society to the point where we can't distinguish one over another and when we do face the beat of a different drum, when we do face someone singing an independent tune, a dance uniquely of their own, we simply don't know how to respond in kindness anymore. "Everyone should think and act as I do and if they don't I will lash them with my words and I will tear them to shreds with my actions." We do have policies and though the encyclopedia is free content this is not a public entity. Wikipedia is owned by a private entity and can make their own rules by which this free content is created and distributed. But because civility is a pillar of this community it should be both shield and sword, not to protect the voice of the offender but the voice of the offended and in a lot of cases an individual can be both. When is it okay to be uncivil? I say never and this coming from a human being that fully knows we all fail in that regard sometimes. It is still never acceptable. Not by me and not by anyone. These trolls, as you were, are easily identifiable most of the time and are generally dealt with swiftly. What to do with the every day editor that commits an uncivil action is difficult. I think most reasonable editors here would respond to a simple discussion at a latter point after they have cooled off. They will realize their actions were uncivil and will attempt to make amends. This isn't always the case though because, again, even good people can, by way of experience or education, come to devalue another human being face-to-face rather easily, much less through a screen of words. --ARoseWolf 13:42, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

  I had to think about this for a while, First off, the use of language such as “offender” is problematic. It’s seldom is so clear cut. The reality is that you correctly identify most disputes as two good faith editors who just get upset over content issues. Sometimes passionately upset… But, the most challenging individuals of all are those who have a superficial civility while they are actively twisting the knife in someone’s back. These folks really are “concern trolling” or gaslighting, but if you don’t understand the situation and you just read the words on the page you do think there is this “perfectly reasonable“ person that is being persecuted by someone with a lot of anger. But in reality, the angry person is often someone who cares about the content or issue, and has been dealing with WP:BAIT until they snap. The Wikipedia essay WP:CHEESE is my favorite on this topic. It is probably accurate to say that patience and civility are virtues on Wikipedia, but the civility policy is simpler and really is fuzzy— what’s sanctionable are personal attacks—and Sometimes, people can misinterpret a disagreement as a personal attack when it is not. I think in part this is the challenge of conveying information only via the written word. And, it is very difficult to keep a spirit of kindness when you know damn well that someone is pushing their own agenda and they don’t really care what the consequences are. There are deeper spiritual implications here of course, but not all “truths” are equally “true.” On Wikipedia we are after neutral point of view, reliability, and verifiability. I decided years ago that it is useless to speculate on people’s motives or beliefs, and that it really is true that you have to focus on the content. But, in the heat of an editing dispute, sometimes that does become difficult. I pity anyone who tries to exercise stewardship over the articles about Bigfoot. Montanabw^(talk) 16:48, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

help?

Please put on your lawyer cap. I think this is titled wrong. When I found the article the information in it was totally about the original case Unity Dow v Attorney General, decided in 1992. The appeal Attorney General v Unity Dow was finalized in 1994. I expanded it but am not sure about the title. It seems to me that since the appeal was launched against the first case and the first decision was upheld, that it should be the title of the article. Am I wrong? SusunW (talk) 15:27, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

SusunW, I would say “Attorney General of Botswana v. Unity Dow”. I don’t see any reason not to just move it to that title, if you need help making a move, just post here again and I can do it for you. Montanabw^(talk) 16:36, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

So, it should be named after the appeal. Is that standard practice? Good to know. It'd be lovely if you moved it, as you know I suck at technical stuff. Will it automatically fix the redirects too? SusunW (talk) 16:57, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

It can be really confusing when the order of the party names gets switched. But traditionally a case is named with the party having the burden first. (Whether that be plaintiff, prosecutor, or appellant. ) It is the loser in the case below who files the appeal, and when that loser was the defendant, then the defendant becomes the appellant, which is super confusing but that’s why we go to law school…I’ll make the move.Montanabw^(talk) 17:43, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

Mumbles to self, just ask Montanabw if it comes up again. Thank you! SusunW (talk) 18:48, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

RfA

...easily manipulated by a small number of disgruntled trolls. Not just trolls either. There are too many vindictive and abusive users out there including Arbcom members themselves, who will blow a case up out of all proportion by taking things cleverly out of context as if butter wouldn't melt in their mouths, and the result is a desysoping. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:16, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

aka “concern trolling.” 😉 Montanabw^(talk) 03:42, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

November 2021 at Women in Red

Women in Red | November 2021, Volume 7, Issue 11, Numbers 184, 188, 210, 212, 213 Online events: New: Film + Stage | Endocrine health Contest (Oct/Nov/Dec): Women in Oceania contest Continuing: Women's rights | #1day1woman See also: Wikipedia Asian Month 2021 Other ways to participate: Join the conversations on our talkpage. Help plan and coordinate future events. Become a member. You can always opt-out of notifications. Follow Women in Red on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

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November 2021 backlog drive

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October thanks

October songs

Thank you for improving articles in October! - Today: see yourself, read about a hymn praying to not be on earth in vain, about a comics artist whose characters have character (another collaboration of the "perennial gang", broken by one of us banned - as if blocked wasn't enough), and in memory of the last prima donna assoluta, Edita Gruberová. I had to go to two grave sites last week, one who died now, one who died 10 years ago, so standing upright and in black seems appropriate. More colours - but subdued - can be had on hikes, - click on songs. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:23, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Today: memories in friendship --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:13, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

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WikiCup 2021 November newsletter

The WikiCup is over for another year and the finalists can relax! Our Champion this year is The Rambling Man (submissions), who amassed over 5000 points in the final round, achieving 8 featured articles and almost 500 reviews. It was a very competitive round; seven of the finalists achieved over 1000 points in the round (enough to win the 2019 contest), and three scored over 3000 (enough to win the 2020 event). Our 2021 finalists and their scores were:

1. The Rambling Man (submissions) with 5072 points
2. Lee Vilenski (submissions) with 3276 points
3. Amakuru (submissions) with 3197 points
4. Epicgenius (submissions) with 1611 points
5. Gog the Mild (submissions) with 1571 points
6. BennyOnTheLoose (submissions) with 1420 points
7. Hog Farm (submissions) with 1043 points
8. Bloom6132 (submissions) with 528 points

All those who reached the final round will win awards. The following special awards will be made based on high performance in particular areas of content creation and review. Awards will be handed out in the next few days.

• The Rambling Man (submissions) wins the featured article prize, for 8 FAs in round 5.
• Lee Vilenski (submissions) wins the featured list prize, for 3 FLs in round 5.
• Gog the Mild (submissions) wins the featured topic prize, for 13 articles in a featured topic in round 5.
• Epicgenius (submissions) wins the good article prize, for 63 GAs in round 4.
• The Rambling Man (submissions) wins the good topic prize, for 86 articles in good topics in round 5.
• The Rambling Man (submissions) wins the reviewer prize, for 68 FAC reviews and 213 GAN reviews, both in round 5.
• Epicgenius (submissions) wins the DYK prize, for 30 did you know articles in round 3 and 105 overall.
• Bloom6132 (submissions) wins the ITN prize, for 71 in the news articles in round 1 and 284 overall.

Congratulations to everyone who participated in this year's WikiCup, whether they made it to the final round or not, and particular congratulations to the newcomers to the WikiCup, some of whom did very well. Wikipedia has benefitted greatly from the quality creations, expansions and improvements made, and the numerous reviews performed. Thanks to all who have taken part and helped out with the competition, not forgetting User:Jarry1250, who runs the scoring bot.

If you have views on whether the rules or scoring need adjustment for next year's contest, please comment on the WikiCup talk page. Next year's competition will begin on 1 January. You are invited to sign up to participate; the WikiCup is open to all Wikipedians, both novices and experienced editors, and we hope to see you all in the 2022 competition. Until then, it only remains to once again congratulate our worthy winners, and thank all participants for their involvement! If you wish to start or stop receiving this newsletter, please feel free to add or remove yourself from Wikipedia:WikiCup/Newsletter/Send. Sturmvogel 66 and Cwmhiraeth. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 19:55, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Sabino again

Hey, just popping by to say I finally replied on the talk page. Been super busy lately, sorry. Iamnotabunny (talk) 00:53, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Danetime

Just found this at CAT:CSD tagged with {{db-animal}}. I added a source specifically about Danetime, but I don't know much about horses. As you do, could you take a look and see if the article can be expanded? Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 19:57, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Prabook as source at John Misha Petkevich

Hi Montanabw, I removed Prabook as a source because it’s completely user generated, and isn’t a reliable source per WP:USERGENERATED. While a self-published source would be acceptable for basic biographical details, Prabook isn’t self-published, it’s an openly editable wiki with no editorial standards or reviews, so it isn’t acceptable for any information at all. It’s been discussed a few times at WP:RSN. Would you consider undoing the revert? Thanks, Politanvm ^talk 04:31, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

So @Politanvm: what you are saying is that while Facebook or LinkedIn would be ok for basic bio details, Prabook is more like WP itself in that anyone can edit, and that’s why it is viewed as unacceptable? Montanabw^(talk) 15:22, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that’s right. Facebook or LinkedIn is fine for WP:ABOUTSELF types of things, but Prabook is completely open. There’s a bit more about it on the founder’s Wikipedia article. It’s a combination of scraped information from other public sources and unverified edits by users. Politanvm ^talk 15:38, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi Montanabw, wanted to let you know I’ve opened an RfC at RSN, since I’ve noticed Prabook being used as a source in additional articles since last week. Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#RfC: Prabook.com Politanvm ^talk 23:40, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Bay

Oops, sorry about that edit conflict! Unlucky timing. Iamnotabunny (talk) 18:32, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Hey, I liked my version of the genetics section :( I spent all morning working on it, and even had a friend proofread it and everything. Iamnotabunny (talk) 18:40, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Iamnotabunny:, I do too, I put it back…I didn’t realize there was an edit conflict at first. My intent is to clean up the rest of the section, which is badly worded. Montanabw^(talk) 18:46, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I'll put it back then. The main point I wanted to get across with it is that bay is (almost) the wildtype color of horses - in particular, agouti is not a "modifier", it's the ancestral state. Otherwise, it'd be like explaining that bay horses have two copies of the MATP gene, which pumps sodium ions out of the melanocytes and turns perlino to bay, or that bay horses have two copies of the PMEL17 gene, which makes them bay instead of silver dapple. Iamnotabunny (talk) 18:55, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Looks like you already got most of it. Thanks! Will touch up. ~~

I think I’m about done. You did great work! Montanabw^(talk) 19:01, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

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DYK for Earl Old Person

On 12 November 2021, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Earl Old Person, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Earl Old Person, lifetime honorary Chief of the Blackfeet Nation, inadvertently broke a 1000-year tradition in 1971 when he asked the Shah of Iran to stand up? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Earl Old Person. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Earl Old Person), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

—valereee (talk) 12:02, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

		Hook update
		Your hook reached 10,678 views (889.8 per hour), making it one of the most viewed hooks of November 2021—nice work!

theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 03:15, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

November songs

Thank you for improving articles in November! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:01, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Today we received the annual arbcom message, which made me think, of Doug and others lost. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:25, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanksgiving music --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:13, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

December 2021 at Women in Red

Women in Red | December 2021, Volume 7, Issue 12, Numbers 184, 188, 210, 214, 215, 216 Online events: New: "Double the lede!" | Women who died in 2021 Contest (Oct/Nov/Dec): Women in Oceania contest Continuing: Women's rights | #1day1woman See also: Women in Climate Change and preparations for our 2022 Climate initiative Other ways to participate: Join the conversations on our talkpage. Help plan and coordinate future events. Become a member. You can always opt-out of notifications. Follow Women in Red on social media: Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

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Io, Saturnalia!

		Io, Saturnalia!
		Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and distraction-free. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:05, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Reaching Both Ways by Helen Pease Wolf

Are you are familiar with Reaching Both Ways by Absaroka author Helen Pease Wolf of Lodge Grass, Montana? Wondering if it's worth the effort of tracking down a copy and writing a Wikipedia article. Gamaliel (talk) 20:27, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: I'm not, but the Pease surname is a major family name on the Crow Reservation, as you can see here: [23] and and here. It looks like Helen was respected as a local historian: [24]. The book appears to be out of print, and the few used copies I can locate are overpriced, but it is in at least 42 libraries, so interlibrary loan is definitely a possibility [25]. I'm thinking she is more likely to reach notability as a historian (who lived in the mid-20th century pre-Google age) than just for being a book author. Her grandfather, Fellows D. Pease was the most famous "anglo" ancestor, and his notability is mentioned in the NRHP article linked above. Looks like a potentially fascinating topic. Montanabw^(talk) 22:18, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! The more I learn the more fascinating this gets, I just wish the sources were more accessible. Gamaliel (talk) 15:48, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

@Gamaliel:, if there’s anything you locate that is known to be in hardcopy at the Montana Historical Society, it’s pretty easy for me to pop over there and scan stuff that is in the closed stacks. I am on a first name basis with the crew there… shoot me an email with any requests. Another good source is to google Montana memory project. The search interface is bleech, but they have got tons of stuff that is digitized. It’s just finding it…Montanabw^(talk) 20:26, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

December thanks

December songs

Thank you for improving article quality in December. If you like Advent music, check this out. If you like Christmas music and wishes, watch my user talk until 27 December ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:19, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Songs of the season

		Holiday cheer
		Here is a snowman a gift a boar's head and something blue for your listening pleasure. Enjoy and have a wonderful 2022 M. MarnetteD|Talk 15:25, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Season's greetings

	A Shaker Christmas wish
	Give good gifts, one to another Peace, joy and comfort gladly bestow Harbor no ill 'gainst sister or brother Smooth life's journey as you onward go. Broad as the sunshine, free as the showers. So shed an influence blessing to prove; Give for the noblest of efforts your pow'rs; Blest and be blest, is the law of love.

--Ser Amantio di Nicolao^{Che dicono a Signa?}_{Lo dicono a Signa.} 19:45, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Section move discussion for [[Belmont Stakes]]

An article that you have been involved with (Belmont Stakes) has some content that is proposed to be moved to another article (United States Triple Crown of Thoroughbred Racing on television). If you are interested, please visit the discussion at Talk:Belmont Stakes. Thank you. JRHorse (talk) 01:04, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

FA help request

Hey MontanaBW, was wondering if you had time to review an FA? Buffs (talk) 23:03, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, not at the moment. I'm too busy off-wiki to really do anything that requires a lot of focus. Montanabw^(talk) 23:38, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Buffs (talk) 01:48, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

in friendship

January songs

in friendship

Thank you for being around! - Happy new year, in friendship! - One of my pics was on the Main page, DYK, and even made it to the stats. - In this young year, I enjoyed meetings with friends in real life, and wish you many of those. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:33, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Gerda, for all of your beautiful messages. They brighten My heart. Montanabw^(talk) 05:06, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! 2022 began happily with vacation. I uploaded images but stopped at 22 January - click on songs. 30 January means 10 years of Precious. It's also the birthday of a friend, - I'm so happy I mentioned his DYK on his 90th birthday when he was still alive. I have a great singer on DYK whom I heard, Elena Guseva, and wait for a Recent death appearance of Georg Christoph Biller whom I saw in action. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:04, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

My post to WP:FTN about the Hopewell and a comet burst might interest you

Also, there's been discussion about Yvette Running Horse Collin on Facebook recently. [26] I think Carl's blog is an RS[27] but maybe being a forest archaeologist isn't enough. Doug Weller talk 15:23, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Oh dear gawd. That “theory” has been the bane of my existence since it came out. The hotcupofjoe blog is not a perfect source, but he’s correct. I’m only guessing, but I think the stories she found may have been like tales of the Great Flood, in that people may have had some kind of mythos that recounted actual experiences at the end of the Ice Age. Talkpage friends, all please do watchlist History of the horse in North America, Mustang, and Wild horse. Montanabw^(talk) 16:21, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Doug Weller talk 17:22, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Always precious

Precious

ten years

I remember with pleasure your support from 10 years ago, then in the effort to introduce {{infobox opera}}, sacrificing your admin ambitions (an effort that finally succeeded last year, DYK?), and for horse articles. To be continued! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:24, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Invitation to contribute

Hi. I'd like to invite you to contribute to an article on working to create space for Indigenous history and culture on Wikipedia. The article will be simultaneously published in an academic journal and on the Wikiproject if project members agree. Your insights would be extremely valuable. I'm going to issue a similar invitation to some members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America, and would welcome additional suggestions for people to invite. The article is in a very early stage of planning as my hope is that it will be fully collaborative and that everyone who wants to will have a hand in designing it (and, of course, Indigenous voices should be prioritised rather than my own).

If you are interested, or have further questions, please sign up here or leave a comment on this subpage's talk: User:Vizjim/IndigenousWikipedia. Regards and respect, Vizjim (talk) 09:35, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Reddit thread on a few breeds that might interest you

Hi there, I hope this message finds you well.

While browsing reddit's badhistory sub, I stumbled on this thread which you may find interesting, as it critiques a couple of our horse breed articles: https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/t4gbsf/the_georgian_grande_the_horse_breed_created_due/

I'm obviously not in any position to evaluate whether the points made therein have any merit, but I thought you either would, or at least get some entertainment out of it.

Cheers, MLauba ^(Talk) 19:08, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

March thanks

March songs

Thank you for improving articles in March. Music if you like. Prayer for Ukraine. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:11, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

The Prayer for Ukraine is on the Main page, finally + new flowers, and btw: the TFA is a young writer's first --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:19, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Sunday flowers and sounds, don't miss the extraordinary marriage of the beginnings of the theme of Wie schön leuchtet der Morgenstern, BWV 1, and Prayer for Ukraine - here! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:04, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Request for FA Review

You are listed as an FA mentor. Would you be so kind as to assist in reviewing the article Texas A&M University? Buffs (talk) 23:00, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Hi, Montanabw,

I was looking at a PROD'd article and noticed that you had PROD'd it years ago and realized that I hadn't run into you in a long, long time. I hope all is well with you and your family and your off-line life. I took a two year break from editing Wikipedia from 2016-2018 and didn't miss it at all! But, I got the urge to do some work and eventually came back to do work on a daily basis again. I hope you'll return should the project become interesting again for you. All the best, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:37, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi Liz,I’m still around! Not as active, but involved at a lighter level. Glad to see you back! Montanabw^(talk) 03:29, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

April

April songs

Easter - resilience - Spring - thank you for improving articles in April --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:35, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

dance and singing, peace doves and icecream --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:51, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

May music

May songs

I like my talk today (actually mostly from 29 May - I took the title pic), enjoy the music, two related videos worth watching! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:11, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

June songs

19 June songs

My song collection in June is especially rich, look, and the hall where I first heard DFD, Pierre Boulez and Murray Perahia. Do you find the baby deer in the meadow (last row)? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:58, 20 June 2022 (UTC)