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Move to Third Lebanon War

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https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/the-third-lebanon-war-between-israel-and-hezbollah-has-begun-whats-next/

https://www.jewishpress.com/news/middle-east/lebanon/israel-launches-the-third-lebanon-war/2024/09/30/

https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/09/22/israel-deliberately-raises-stakes-against-hezbollah/

https://anglican.ink/2024/09/26/urgent-letter-from-anglican-bishop-of-cyprus-and-the-gulf-on-the-third-lebanon-war/

https://wavellroom.com/2024/09/04/on-the-brink-of-a-third-lebanon-war-can-israel-overcome-hezbollah-this-time/

Already widely used and technically correct 2604:3D09:1F7F:8B00:38FF:A30A:5A13:E402 (talk) 20:26, 30 September 2024 (UTC) WP:ARBECR Selfstudier (talk) 22:17, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with third Lebanon war or maybe just 2024 Invasion of Lebanon. HuntersHistory (talk) 22:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those are all either Israeli or pro-Israeli sources, so hardly neutral. Calling it the Third Lebanon War removes any reference to Israel in the invasion, and suggests that Lebanon's official armed forces are involved, both of which are misleading Little Professor (talk) 20:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not engage with non EC editors that are only permitted to make edit requests, nothing more. Selfstudier (talk) 22:18, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Article title

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If this article is to retain the "invasion of Lebanon" part, it should be preceded by "Israeli" for clarity; as far as I can see, "Israel", "Israeli tanks" and other similar terms are universally used by reliable sources. I don't think this is too controversial, but at the moment 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon is a redirect. Nythar (💬-🍀) 20:32, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, would make more sense. Someone coming across the page wouldn't actually know the invaders until they look at the text. SK55555 (talk) 20:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. HuntersHistory (talk) 22:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@HuntersHistory@Nythar@SK55555. Our procedures require that if a bold move is reverted then it must be conducted via a formal RM. I have started one below.VR (Please ping on reply) 00:03, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Background

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A background section should be added once the article's initial edits that are fleshing out the breaking/current events that this article focuses on are done. It should probably include references to immediate events (such as 2024 Lebanon pager explosions, 2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike, etc.) and past events (such as 2006 invasion of Lebanon). I know this article is really new, so I do not want to disrupt the current construction occurring. Mason7512 (talk) 21:21, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 30 September 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (early close per WP:SNOW) – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 14:20, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2024 Israeli ground operation in Lebanon → 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon – Most RS are calling it an "invasion". "Ground operation" is what Israeli govt calls it (therefore WP:POVTITLE), just as the Russian govt called the Russian invasion of Ukraine as a "special operation". Rs using "invasion": GlobeAndMail, Reuters, Washington Post, CTV news, Arab News, MSNBC etc. Most sources that call it a "ground operation" do use scarequotes for it and don't always use their own voice. This also resembles an invasion given the amount of soldiers and tanks pouring into Lebanon. VR (Please ping on reply) 23:31, 30 September 2024 (UTC) [reply]

More sources using "invasion" in their own voice
  • "Shortly before the Israeli invasion, the army declared three northern communities near the Lebanese border to be". AP News
  • "This appears to culminate a day of positioning for an Israeli ground invasion of Lebanon." CNN
  • "Israel's widely expected ground invasion of Lebanon appeared to be getting underway early on Tuesday" Reuters
  • "This follows reports of an Israeli ground invasion starting in the South of Lebanon amidst" Al-Ahram
Strong support per nom. Skitash (talk) 23:32, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support per nom. Bitspectator ⛩️ 23:42, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support and suggest speedy move This shouldn't even need to be discussed. Why was the article originally created with an euphemism? A ground operation is an invasion. Examples. Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip 2003 invasion of Iraq, Russian invasion of Ukraine. Viewsridge (talk) 23:45, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Israel had not officially started an incursion at the time this article was created. Israeli forces briefly entered Lebanon, but the argument that qualifies as an invasion is weak. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 04:11, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support 'Ground operation' is a euphemism. No matter the scale of this event, it is still an invasion. Khronicle I (talk) 23:50, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support agreed, would follow consensus and similar past events (including those also described as "ground operations" or "limited incursions" by Israel and others) Mason7512 (talk) 00:05, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support per WP:SPADE. WillowCity(talk) 00:26, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support and speedy move, SNOW, plus this is blatant POV. Ground operation is hopelessly false-neutral voice, like using the word "officer-involved shooting". Needs moving immediately, we can't wait days for doubt to begin to creep in. </MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 00:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Maybe we should call it a "Special Ground Operation" in Lebanon. selfwormTalk) 00:40, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support, if that's what the sources say, then it makes sense to move it there. LilianaUwU (talk / contributions) 00:43, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
strong support per nom and speedy move — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephan rostie (talk • contribs) 11:57, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think someone can move it now, its nearly unanimous support Braganza (talk) 12:12, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support, makes sense to move it now, there's virtually universal consensus - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 12:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

More reactions by countries

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https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/10/1/us-out-of-step-as-world-reacts-to-israels-ground-offensive-into-lebanon Seems like Japan, the UAE, and the Us have responded now aswell. Rad da writer (talk) 10:26, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Map of the conflict

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Maybe it would be handy to add some kind of map for the conflict? Berobalkan (talk) 11:04, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Since the invasion just started, we dont know yet how the frontline is, once we know, a map will be made Lucasmota0975 (talk) 12:11, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support someone should make a map once the front lines are known. HuntersHistory (talk) 16:18, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The good editors in my opinion are @Glrx and @Physeters. They are both skilfull and have edited Ukraine war map. Berobalkan (talk) 17:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 October 2024

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Change "2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon" to "2024 Israeli Invasion of Lebanon following 8,000+ rocket attacks on civilian targets"

Source: https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4893654-hezbollah-has-fired-more-than-8000-rockets-toward-israel-since-october-7-ambassador/

Source: Danny Danon, Israel Ambassador to UN, in a speech to the UN 2601:189:4100:1FD0:28FC:7342:ADC7:C09C (talk) 16:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: page move requests should be made at Wikipedia:Requested moves. Cannolis (talk) 18:16, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Terrorist incidents in Tel Aviv

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Is there an article about the current attacks in Tel Aviv? Web-julio (talk) 16:58, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

this is not relevant to the topic of this article. 2024 Iran–Israel conflict would be better suited for this Mason7512 (talk) 21:16, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reactions

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The summary of Italy's reaction is somewhat deceptive as it leaves out the key detail that it would only be offering military support in a situation supported by Israel.

Also, I've searched for the original source of the quote attributed to the Danish Prime Minister, but have been unable to find it on either English and Danish sources. At best I've found one Danish and one Swedish publication that quotes other publications as having quoted her as saying such, but have found no original sources. Additionally the quote appears to have little to no traction in other reliable sources especially in English language media, and the sources I have been able to find are of questionable reliability and sometimes offer different summary of her apparent words. Something that certainly seems odd. Consequently I suspect Al Jazeera got duped by a fake quote and therefore more reliable sources, and ideally the original source of the quote, should be added. ChristofferItzakah (talk) 00:19, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Iranian missile attack

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Since the Iranian missile attack today on October 1st was a result of the Israeli aggression in Lebanon, any casualties and damage from the missile attack should be included, as well as the involvement of Iran and other Axis of Resistance members in the "belligerents" section since an attack on Hezbollah would mean an attack on the alliance itself Mauzer's random BS (talk) 02:51, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

request to change name from 2024 israeli invasion of lebanon

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change it to: 2024 israeli invasion of south lebanon or, israel-hezbollah war or, 2024 israel-hezbollah conflict or, 2024 israeli invasion of hezbollah or, 2024 israeli invasion of hezbollah controlled lebanon


reason for request: israel has not declared war against lebanon, only hezbollah General Phoenix (talk) 05:28, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to make a formal move request, see instructions at WP:RMCM. However, keep in mind that there was very recently a recent RM that had consensus to move the page title to what it currently is. ArkHyena (talk) 08:23, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 October 2024

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The strength is compromising of 4 divisions, the Israeli army has put in 70K troops. 2A02:8109:B607:5000:2582:1E0C:F105:76A8 (talk) 11:16, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Sincerely, Guessitsavis (she/they) (Talk) 12:14, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lede

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I've made further improvements to lede that I have not been able to instate due to 1RR:

On 1 October 2024, Israel invaded Lebanon as part of the ongoing Israel–Hezbollah conflict.

The ground invasion followed a week of major Hezbollah setbacks in September that degraded its capabilities and devastated its leadership, that began with an Israeli attack that detonated their communication devices,[1] and culminated with the assassination of its leader Hassan Nasrallah on 27 September.[2] Throughout that week Israeli airstrikes targeted Hezbollah's infrastructure across southern Lebanon.[3]

The Israeli military declared parts of Israel's northern border are a closed military zones.[4] Israel states that the operation seeks to root out Hezbollah's forces and infrastructure that pose a threat to civilian communities in the north of the country Israel.[5][6][7] The country also stated that Hezbollah was preparing for an attack similar to Hamas' 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel.[5][8]

On the same day, the Lebanese Armed Forces (LAF) withdrew from the Blue Line. Hezbollah denied that the Israeli military had entered Lebanon.[9] Makeandtoss (talk) 11:21, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Israeli strikes kill 492 in Lebanon's deadliest day of conflict since 2006". AP News. 23 September 2024. Archived from the original on 24 September 2024. Retrieved 24 September 2024.
  2. ^ Nakhoul, Samia; Hafezi, Parisa; Lubell, Maayan (29 September 2024). "Nasrallah's killing reveals depth of Israel's penetration of Hezbollah". Reuters.
  3. ^ Stroul, Dana (23 September 2024). "Israel and Hezbollah Are Escalating Toward Catastrophe". Foreign Affairs. ISSN 0015-7120. Retrieved 29 September 2024.
  4. ^ Chao-Fong, Léonie; Belam, Martin; Gecsoyler, Sammy; Yerushalmy, Jonathan (30 September 2024). "Middle East crisis live: Israel launches small raids across border amid reports Lebanese army is pulling back". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 30 September 2024.
  5. ^ a b "Live updates: Israel begins 'limited' ground offensive against Hezbollah in southern Lebanon". AP News. Retrieved 1 October 2024.
  6. ^ "IDF invasion of southern Lebanon meets no Hezbollah resistance". The Jerusalem Post | JPost.com. 1 October 2024. Retrieved 1 October 2024.
  7. ^ Livni, Ephrat (10 January 2024). "Why Did Israel Send Troops Into Lebanon?". The New York Times.
  8. ^ Mackenzie, James; Gebeily, Maya; Lubell, Maayan (1 October 2024). "Israel says it's raiding Hezbollah strongholds in Lebanon, group fires at Israel". Reuters.
  9. ^ "Lebanon latest: Israel launches ground invasion against Hezbollah". www.bbc.com. Retrieved 1 October 2024.

Losses

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Israel has lost 3 merkava tanks in the invasion as of now per hezbollah

https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/lebanon-news/801167/hezbollah-says-destroyed-three-merkava-tanks-advancing-on-lebanon-vill/en

https://en.abna24.com/story/1490939 217.150.82.145 (talk) 16:15, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IDF casualty

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as of 10/2 since the invasion the death toll is 8 not 14 [1]https://idfanc.activetrail.biz/ANC0212024124457 https://www.idf.il/%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A4%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%97%D7%9C%D7%9C%D7%99-%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%94/Aqwsf (talk) 16:24, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

sky news arabia

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@Viewsridge I'm beginning to see a pattern here but I won't comment on it.

I do not see that sky news arabia is considered a depreciated or otherwise unreliable source. Part of me wants to say that an Arabic source is immediately deemed unreliable when no previous review of it concluded such a thing suggests bad faith but that's neither here nor there. Basically my question is, is there any reason you consider sky news arabia to be an "unreliable source" Genabab (talk) 16:41, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 October 2024

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Would reccomend adding on the infobox the https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Israel-Lebanon-Syria-border-Conflict-2023.svg since its the map, also it has to be updated since some reports and footage show Israeli troops are already in Lebanese territories. Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 18:15, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hezbollah claim of 3 destroyed Israeli tanks

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I don't think these deserve to be added to the article, let alone, to the infobox. During the Gaza conflict Hamas falsely claimed destroying hundreds of Israeli tanks. And Hezbollah has made similar ludicrous claims during its conflict, claiming to have killed 2,000 Israeli soldiers, while the real tally is less than 25. Viewsridge (talk) 22:29, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there's anything wrong with it, its already got the "Hezbollah claim" disclaimer. </MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 22:56, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. furthermore, cites a reliable source, as does the "2,000 Israeli soldiers" claim viewsridge removed earlier today. In my opinion, both ought to be included under the heading Per Hezbollah Genabab (talk) 23:40, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The real casualties are definitely higher than 25, which is the IDF claim 185.127.127.29 (talk) 07:35, 3 October 2024 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBPIA and WP:ARBECR. Viewsridge (talk) 10:38, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's literally impossible for the IDF to lie about it's casualties, since the number is so small, all the soldiers have phones, and every death is made public; A family member is bound to say something if they notice their family member's death was not made public, especially if it's 2,000 additional deaths like Hezbollah claims. 2A0D:6FC7:43C:CAB5:A78:5634:1232:5476 (talk) 07:49, 3 October 2024 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBPIA and WP:ARBECR. Viewsridge (talk) 10:38, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
in the Gaza War Israel claims to just have 800 casualties Braganza (talk) 07:56, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hezbollah doent claim 2,000 deaths but casualties Genabab (talk) 09:03, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Theres something called israeili military censor, if the losses are high they will find a way through, they did this in the south lebanon conflict, gradually citing losses 185.127.127.29 (talk) 09:42, 3 October 2024 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBPIA and WP:ARBECR. Viewsridge (talk) 10:38, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
what do you mean here? the IDF can't lie? these are delusional claims, like for example: the IDF claims that the number of Palestinian fighters killed is 17,000, while sources like the Euro-Med monitor, a Non-profit Human Rights Organisation headquartered in Geneva, reported a number close to 3,000 fighters dead, you can't say the IDF claims are the most reliable, what we should do is to write what both sides claims and opinions. Fares3195 (talk) 10:08, 3 October 2024 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBPIA and WP:ARBECR. Viewsridge (talk) 10:38, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ViewsridgeWhat does that even mean ?_? Genabab (talk) 11:21, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Non extended confirmed editors cannot participate in ecp article disputes, see the move page discussion above. Viewsridge (talk) 11:59, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
woah.. Genabab (talk) 13:53, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So you'd like info to be changed based of your assumption? Do you have any contradicting information or proof to back your assumption? 108.45.148.183 (talk) 11:25, 3 October 2024 (UTC) Struck per WP:ARBPIA and WP:ARBECR. Viewsridge (talk) 12:00, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please add an (IDF claim) disclaimer on Hezbollah casualties reported by the IDF

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In order to differentiate between the reports and claims made on both sides, could someone please add the disclaimer "IDF claim" or "per IDF", same thing for Hezbollah. Fares3195 (talk) 01:28, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like it's been done already. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 11:21, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Background

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The current background version is incorrect (eg it claims Hezbollah attacked northern Israel on Oct 8, which is not true). The same incorrect material keeps getting replicated across many articles. There was a consensus version here and I suggest we use that. It is:

Shortly after the onset of the Israel-Hamas war in October 2023, Hezbollah joined the conflict, citing solidarity with Palestinians,[1] which quickly escalated into regular cross-border military exchanges impacting northern Israel, southern Lebanon and the Golan Heights.[2] Hezbollah said it aimed to pressure Israel by forcing it to fight on two fronts.[3] Hezbollah has offered an immediate ceasefire should a ceasefire also happen in Gaza,[4][5] where 40,000 Palestinians have been killed, majority being women and children. From 8 October 2023 to 20 September 2024, Hezbollah has launched 1,900 cross border attacks, and Israel has launched another 8,300.[6] The fighting killed 564 in Lebanon (including 133 civilians),[7] and 52 in Israel (including 27 civilians), displaced entire communities in Israel and Lebanon,[7] with significant damage to civilian infrastructure.[8]

After this we'd write about the pager attacks, assassination of Nasrallah, and other bombings. VR (Please ping on reply) 11:29, 1 October 2024 (UTC) VR (Please ping on reply) 11:29, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Hezbollah fires on Israel after several members killed in shelling". Al Jazeera. Al-Jazeera.
  2. ^ "Hezbollah bombards Israeli positions in disputed area along border with Syria's Golan Heights". AP News. 8 October 2023. Retrieved 27 September 2024.
  3. ^ Stroul, Dana (2024-09-23). "Israel and Hezbollah Are Escalating Toward Catastrophe". Foreign Affairs. ISSN 0015-7120. Retrieved 2024-10-01.
  4. ^ "Hezbollah warns of regional war if Gaza bombing goes on". 2023-11-08. Retrieved 2024-10-01.
  5. ^ "Violence escalates between Israel and Lebanon's Hezbollah amid Gaza assault". Al Jazeera. Retrieved 2024-10-01.
  6. ^ "Mapping 10,000 cross-border attacks between Israel and Lebanon". Al Jazeera. Retrieved 2024-10-01.
  7. ^ a b "Lebanon: Flash Update #25 – Escalation of hostilities in South Lebanon, as of 23 August 2024 – Lebanon". United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. 27 August 2024. Archived from the original on 23 September 2024. Retrieved 27 August 2024.
  8. ^ "Israel-Hezbollah: Mapping the scale of damage of cross-border attacks". www.bbc.com. Retrieved 2024-10-01.

Add names of all hezbollah commanders involved (incl. slain ones like hassan nasrallah and ali karaki)

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in the israeli side some of the commander names are given, yet not all. add the names of hezbollah commanders in the belligerents not just the leader. also if possible, add iran/irgc and axis of resistance/other islamic terror groups present in south lebanon. 2A02:2908:4101:8F7F:6182:F8F4:FD7E:8164 (talk) 05:24, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 October 2024

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Change the israeli casualties to 14 soldiers

https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/middleeastnews/801118/sky-news-arabia-14-israeli-soldiers-dead-in-clashes-on-the-ground-in-s/en AlMuslim17 (talk) 02:02, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Note: The Sky News Arabia article that this appears to be citing was recently removed as an unreliable source - is there consensus on this? WP:RSP says they are partially owned by Sky News UK, which is generally reliable, but its unclear if this applies to Sky News Arabia too. Jamedeus (talk) 03:34, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

US waning influence on Israel

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The article's analysis section emphasizes the Israeli invasion of Lebanon demonstrates the US losing influence over Israel. This case is made because the US administration publicly urged restraint, however, there are reports of the US privately pushing Israel to invade.

I think adding a sentence or two about this public vs private stance may paint a fuller picture of the situation.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/09/30/us-israel-military-hezbollah-00181797 72.50.213.39 (talk) 12:39, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

US does not support Israeli campaign

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The infobox reference cites this sentence 

“I made it clear that the United States supports Israel’s right to defend itself,” Austin said.

This does not make the US a belligerent to the conflict at all, I suggest US gets speedily removed from the campaignbox. Viewsridge (talk) 12:48, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Institute for the Study of War

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Hello all! I noticed that the ISW has started releasing maps on the ground invasion, similar to how they do for the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I'm wondering are we able to use those maps here as we do elsewhere? It's very helpful for us visual learners. Completely Random Guy (talk) 20:48, 3 October 2024 (UTC) https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-october-2-2024[reply]

I'm not sure if it meets Wikipedia's non free content policy. If someone can find a valid rationale, I guess there wouldn't be any problems. We do have to remember Wikipedia is subject to U.S. copyright law. Aydoh8[contribs] 02:27, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ISW is a hawkish neoconservative NGO of questionable reliability, with most of its references on the war uncritically sourced from the Israeli military. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:07, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Casualties

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I know there's a link and all, but I haven't seen the claim 60+ casualties on the Hezbollah side anywhere other than here? 60? Am I living under a rock? I checked the IDF twitter account and it says nothing about it, surely they would say something if they had killed 60 of them? Someone double-check this please, I am very skeptical of this info. Fishthatflies (talk) 22:01, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The IDF is not a reliable source when it comes to casualties, particularly on the non-Israeli side (Palestine, Hezbollah or what not), as it is in their best interest to lowball the numbers. I know throughout this conflict people have been taking issue at Al Jazeera as well due to it being funded by the government of Qatar, who has a close relationship with Iran, who Hezbollah (along with Hamas, the PFLP, the Houthis and Syria) are generally regarded as proxies of. It's not clear whether either (or both) source/s are toying the numbers to make it seem better or worse than it is, we just have to take it at face value. Aydoh8[contribs] 02:35, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The consensus you link to shows that Al Jazeera is considered reliable, although biased, for the purposes of the conflict. We can't draw an equivalence with using the IDF itself as a source, and this certainly doesn't justify taking these numbers "at face value". Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 11:54, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Involvement of Amal

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Amal announced deaths of two of its militants. Shouldn't we include it as a party to the conflict? Gorgedweller (talk) 21:24, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Share the source. Bitspectator ⛩️ 01:19, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://abualiexpress.com/en/en35949/ Gorgedweller (talk) 10:19, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would personally wait for a better source. Bitspectator ⛩️ 15:07, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 3 October 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus seems to be clearly against, no point waiting the full 7 days on a recently created article. If sourcing changes, this may be revisited. (non-admin closure) Soni (talk) 05:02, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon → Third Lebanon War – reliable sources that say 3rd Lebanon War:

1. https://www.timesofisrael.com/israels-third-lebanon-war-is-underway-what-you-need-to-know/ "Here’s what to know about Israel’s incipient Third Lebanon War."

2. https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/the-third-lebanon-war-between-israel-and-hezbollah-has-begun-whats-next/ "The Second Lebanon War lasted for thirty-four days in 2006. The length of the third war will depend largely on how quickly Hezbollah will come to the table."

3. https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-822644 "Here’s what to know about Israel’s incipient Third Lebanon War." (for some reason, identical to imes of Israel page? but doesnt change what it says)

4. https://thedispatch.com/article/has-the-third-lebanon-war-begun/ No mention of third war in the main body, but the title does.

5. https://wavellroom.com/2024/09/04/on-the-brink-of-a-third-lebanon-war-can-israel-overcome-hezbollah-this-time/ Ditto Genabab (talk) 14:22, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is a good point.
I would "counter" by asking, should we at least include "Third Lebanon War" in the Lede? Perhaps by saying "also called by Israeli sources The Third Lebanon War" or something along those lines? @Asarlaí Genabab (talk) 14:56, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If there are enough good sources, we could include it as an alternative name in the lead, noting that it's primarily used by Israeli sources. – Asarlaí (talk) 15:07, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Asarlaí Aren't the listed sources enough for that? Genabab (talk) 09:54, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is quite interesting how countries often name conflicts after the country that they are fighting. For example, it is widely called the Vietnam War (especially by the US), but I've heard that people in Vietnam call it the "America War" instead. In the case of Vietnam specifically, it still makes sense to call it the Vietnam War anyways since that's the widely accepted name for it, but it still serves as a good example. In this case however, it would make more sense to be as neutral as possible and try not to use a name that is used only from an Israeli point-of-view.
Calling it the Lebanon War because you are speaking from the POV of Israel would be biased in the same way as calling it the Israel War because you are speaking from the POV of Lebanon. Since there are reliable sources that call it the Lebanon War, it wouldn't be as bad, but it would still show bias. For that reason, I think it would be better to stick to a more neutral term, especially one that refers to both countries. "Israeli invasion of Lebanon" makes it clear that Israel is one one side and Lebanon is on the other, while "Lebanon War" does not make any kind of clarification on who is fighting against Lebanon. Anonymous Libertarian (talk) 14:05, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: This might be appropriate in the future but seems premature at the moment. An article title "Has the Third Lebanon War Begun?" can hardly be used as evidence for this name change, per Betteridge's law. The final source says the countries are on the brink of war, but does not assert it's an actual war, and I'm insure if the Israeli sources are considered WP:NPOV in this context. 0xchase (talk) 14:46, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I considered this, but I can't find any source that said that about the conflict pre-invasion. so if something is to be changed, it should be here. Genabab (talk) 14:54, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose: Only Israeli sources have mentioned this and its not third war in Lebanon's POV so its a clear WP:NPOV violation. Prodrummer619 (talk) 18:27, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
oppose: Third Lebanon war
Support: Israel–Hezbollah war or the current title of 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon HuntersHistory (talk) 20:45, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's like saying the Vietnam War was actually the American War from Vietnam's perspective. That's true, but not the standard applied anywhere else. Shankar Sivarajan (talk) 22:09, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But the difference here is that the US perspective tends to dominate English language media and publications; by contrast, Israel-preferred terminology is usually not adopted by most English language media outlets and publications, with the exception of the minority who identify as particularly pro-Israel. We see other examples of this – for example, what Israel wants to call "Judea and Samaria", most English language sources call "the West Bank" instead. "Third Lebanon War" is another example of Israel-centric terminology that the global English-language media are likely to ignore. SomethingForDeletion (talk) 04:44, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly Oppose Links provided are cherry-picked (pro) Israel-centered sources. Most media does not use this terminology, (at least not yet) and the term is almost solely used by one 'side', some Israelis. '2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon' is way more accepted, specific, and clearly understandable. Mason7512 (talk) 20:43, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose / Wait: Oppose at this time, seems premature. Support above notion of Israel–Hezbollah war rename. In the coming days, should reassess to see if Third Lebanon War is more appropriate.Spilia4 (talk) 22:09, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. ToI and JPost are Israeli and are known for not being neutral, ACUS is a pro-Israel source, The Dispatch is a conservative news outlet that is also pro-Israel (despite claiming to be non-biased), and the Wavell Room is a British military think tank (the UK being an Israel ally as well). I can't find anyone else calling it the 'third Lebanon war' or anything along those lines, not to mention the NPOV issues discussed in the last RM. So until more sources from both sides start calling it as such, I think it's best to stick with the current title since it's simply when and what. Aydoh8[contribs] 02:24, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The "Third Lebanon War" terminology is primarily used by Israeli sources. Yes, you can come up with examples of some non-Israeli/neutral sources using it, but those are a small minority. Most major global English-language media outlets – such as the BBC or New York Times – aren't using that phrase. SomethingForDeletion (talk) 04:47, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait: Conflict hasnt escalated to proportions like Israel vs Gaza. - shJunpei :3 07:36, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose POV title exclusively used by Israeli sources, as it is the "third" only from Israel's point of view. The current title is more factual. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 11:51, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now. The invasion of Lebanon is undergoing, it is too early to call it anything else. Cscescu (talk) 18:21, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose suggested name per Israeli POV reasons already mentioned by others. Propose 2024 Lebanon War in line with 1982 Lebanon War or 2006 Lebanon War. ZionniThePeruser (talk) 19:00, 5 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose Invasions are part of wars and not the wars themselves. Examples include 2003 invasion of Iraq and Iraq War. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:05, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: What I have mostly heard it being called is either an invasion or a ground operation, not a "Lebanon war" Anonymous Libertarian (talk) 13:56, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose The proposed name change would mean adopting an Israeli POV of the war. Name seems to be used almost exclusively in Israeli sources, not in any other media. Jeppiz (talk) 20:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Clean up list tag

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Can the user who placed the 'cleanup list' tag under the 'International reactions' section (or anyone else) explain why the tag was placed. What issues are present within the contents that need to be resolved? Mason7512 (talk) 20:13, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll remove the tag since nobody has come forward. Cortador (talk) 12:04, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request – civilian casualties

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I would like to request that in the Casualties and losses section, "1,000+ Lebanese civilians killed[36]" will be removed or rephrased. That is because the article itself doesn't mention if they were civilians or fighters, while Hezbollah hasn't published official death numbers since the beeper attack. Thus we can't know how many civilians were killed - and the Al Jazeera article doesn't say it either — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.55.173.215 (talk • contribs) 16:40, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Copying this over from WP:RFED. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:02, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Bowler the Carmine | talk 23:20, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Third Lebanon War" listed at Redirects for discussion

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The redirect Third Lebanon War has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 October 9 § Third Lebanon War until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 18:12, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update Lebanese army casualties

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Today 2 Lebanese soldiers are killed source so please update the template from 2 to 4. 70.26.36.11 (talk) 17:19, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Next time, please include:
{{#invoke:protected edit request|extended|answered=no}}
at the top of a talk page comment requesting an edit. Mason7512 (talk) 20:33, 11 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Involvement of Lebanese Armed Forces

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It would appear the Lebanese Armed Forces is now a belligerent and should be added to the infobox. According to the Lebanese Army "the Israeli enemy targeted an army post in the Bint Jbeil area - in the south, and the personnel at the post responded to the sources of fire"[2].VR (Please ping on reply) 13:43, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I had earlier added this with a note too,[3] looks like @Mikrobølgeovn: reverted this. I would appreciate if you could restore the note. Viewsridge (talk) 14:03, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A single clash does not mean that the Lebanese Army has entered the fight. There was a deadlier skirmish between Israeli and Egyptian forces along the Egypt-Gaza border. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 14:58, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes but Israel did not invade Egypt, but Israel is in fact invading Lebanon here. Not a fair comparison. Viewsridge (talk) 15:28, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its not just the clash, but the statements associated with the clash. After the Egyptian-Israeli clash both sides worked to de-escalate. By contrast, Lebanon claims Israel "targeted" it (implying this was deliberate) and there's no attempt to de-escalate. Viewsridge correctly points out that Israel is still pressing ahead with the invasion of Lebanon's territory.VR (Please ping on reply) 15:44, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Has Israel named the LAF as a target alongside Hezbollah? Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 19:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To reiterate: To fire back when fired upon is pretty standard behavior. Even UN peacekeepers would presumably do that. To say that the LAF has now entered the war is at best original research, at worst a fabrication. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 20:57, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its not OR, its based on reliable sources. Whether Israel declares or not, is not relevant. Israel is invading their territory and firing on them and they are firing back. All of this is supported by RS and makes them a belligerent.VR (Please ping on reply) 21:23, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The sources say that the LAF clashed with the IDF (which, by the way, also happened in 2006). They do not say that the LAF has joined the war. It is misleading to list the LAF as a belligerent based on single incidents. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 00:41, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Firing on each other and invading ones territory is very much what belligerency is about. Here is another source that considers LAF to be a belligerent.VR (Please ping on reply) 01:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Mikrobølgeovn makes some good points. This was one incident, and neither Israel nor Lebanon have said that they're at war with eachother. The source you cite is an American political magazine. We'd need something from Israeli or Lebanese officials, or from mainstream news outlets. – Asarlaí (talk) 08:34, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its not one incident, but two. And official statements are never necessary to be included in the infobox, and many times countries deny their involvement. For example: Second Nagorno-Karabakh War's infobox says "Turkey (alleged by Armenia, denied by Turkey)" and "Syrian mercenaries (denied by Azerbaijan)"; Operation Radd-ul-Fasaad's infobox says "Indian Intelligence (alleged by Pakistan, denied by India)" etc. Finally, what makes you think that Reason (magazine) is not reliable? VR (Please ping on reply) 19:39, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We are now in the absurd situation where the LAF is listed as a belligerent in the war, while an attached footnote states that it is staying out of the war. These things are mutually exclusive. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 21:46, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The footnote isn't in Wikivoice. It's a statement from Lebanon. A country can say something and do something different. I don't see much confusing about the current set-up. If A attacks B, and kills members of B, and B responds and intends to continue responding... B is a belligerent. Bitspectator ⛩️ 02:30, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All while A is invading the territory of B. Bitspectator ⛩️ 02:52, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So if UNIFIL is attacked and fires back strictly in self-defense, it's also a belligerent? Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 11:34, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"All while A is invading the territory of B."
The Lebanese Armed Forces is the army of Lebanon itself. This article is about the invasion of Lebanon. Bitspectator ⛩️ 11:43, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is unusual, but not unheard-of. Although the Russo-Japanese War was fought on Chinese territory, China did not get involved. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 13:01, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But the LAF is involved. Bitspectator ⛩️ 02:44, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is a poor argument. The LAF has 80,000 active personnel. They have no intention of joining the war at this point. Israel has no intention of fighting the LAF either. There have been one or two incidents of exchanges of fire; this does not make the LAF a belligerent. Afdshah (talk) 15:43, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See comment bellow by Cortador. Bitspectator ⛩️ 15:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
According to BBC News, the IDF has "targeted" the Lebanese Army, who has referred to them as the "enemy". 1
The Guardian reports that the Lebanese Army has "returned fire" for the first time. 2
The Times supports that, and once more cites the Lebanese Army referring to the IDF as an "enemy". 3
Al Jazira likewise. 4
This wording by RS and their choice of words to cite is IMO sufficient to cite the Lebanese Army as a participant in the conflict. If this was about shells having unintentionally hit Lebanese Army positions, it would be different, but that is not how sources present the situation. Cortador (talk) 15:47, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I forget, where is this war taking place? How can we not include Lebanon... when Israeli forces are invading Lebanon. Scuba 15:40, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because the sources don't say the Lebanese Army are actively involved in the fighting, and the Lebanese Army itself said they're saying out of the conflict for now and have moved away from the border. – Asarlaí (talk) 15:57, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that this situation is similar to the Russo-Japanese war, because that war was fought between two countries but took place in a third country, while this war is primarily a fight between the Israeli military and a Lebanese organization, which is being fought within Lebanon and the Lebanese armed forces are being directly targeted and engaging in combat. We can note the rhetoric of the armed forces of Lebanon, where they say that they will "stay out", but we should also give weight to their actual behavior of attacking Israeli troops that have entered the country (in returning fire) and how they have retreated from certain military positions. Both of these are clearly what a belligerent in an armed conflict would do, no matter how minor their role is.--JasonMacker (talk) 19:46, 7 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's overstating things. How many times have the Israeli and Lebanese armies engaged in combat during this conflict? The sources say there was one exchange of fire. Withdrawing from the combat zone and saying they'll "stay out of it" is the opposite of what a belligerent would do. – Asarlaí (talk) 13:03, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As with all other material in the article, contentious claims need to be supported directly by reliable sources. The cited source does not claim that Lebanon is a belligerent or a party to the conflict. If the material cannot be directly supported, it should be removed. Wikipedia editors are not entitled to present their own conclusions in articles. Mr rnddude (talk) 13:42, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Did you read the source? "The fighting between the U.S.-funded army of Israel and the U.S.-funded army of Lebanon seems to be another such consequence of U.S. policy...American taxpayers have helped arm and train both the armies that are now apparently shooting at each other...on Thursday, the Lebanese army announced that it had, in fact, been sucked into the conflict...An official in Lebanon told Agence France-Presse that it was the first time the Lebanese army fired on Israeli forces throughout the war...Two hours before, the Lebanese army had announced that one of its soldiers was killed by Israeli fire." How can anyone read that and conclude the Lebanese army is not a combatant? VR (Please ping on reply) 23:50, 8 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's an American libertarian political magazine, which is pushing a certain political point-of-view. The article's wording makes that obvious (e.g. "American taxpayers have helped arm and train both the armies that are now apparently shooting at each other"). Do any major news outlets say the Israeli and Lebanese armies are now at war with eachother? If they don't, neither should we, as that would go against Wikipedia policy against original research. – Asarlaí (talk) 09:29, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, you're asking me to bring sources for a claim that I'm not making. I never said Lebanese army "declared war" on Israel. Rather they are engaged in combat with Israeli forces, hence they are combatants. Are there any sources that deny the Lebanese Army's combatant status? The "Infobox military conflict" is not just for declaration of war, but for engagement in military combat.VR (Please ping on reply) 15:17, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well here is one source. We also have the Lebanese military's own statement that it's staying out of the conflict for now. – Asarlaí (talk) 15:57, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That source seems ambiguous. It says "These sources argued that the LAF shouldn’t be expected to intervene" but it also says "the LAF claims that it has only responded [to Israeli forces] once. “A soldier was killed after the Israeli enemy targeted an army post in the Bint Jbeil area” in southern Lebanon, “and the personnel at the post responded to the sources of fire,” the army said in a statement on Oct. 3." Ps, that article also has its biases, all sources do.
Maybe the best course is to list Lebanese Army with a qualification like "Disputed by X".VR (Please ping on reply) 16:37, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The purpose of the infobox is not to engage in public relations for the countries listed. Russia says that it's a limited "Special Military Occupation" and they're not at war with Ukraine according to their laws. Does that mean they shouldn't be listed as a belligerent on the Russo-Ukrainian war infobox? Of course not. For the same reason, it doesn't matter how the LAF (or the IDF or anyone) portrays themselves. We have to look at the actions they have undertaken (according to WP:RS) and judge their belligerency that way. I don't know how else to describe it when a country's armed forces are under attack by an invading army... that country's armed forces are belligerents. They're obviously not the main belligerent, and that should be noted, as it currently is: "The Lebanese government stated they will stay out of the conflict between Hezbollah and Israel, but would respond to Israeli attacks on their positions." The war has been going on for 10 days and Israel has already attacked the LAF multiple times, as recently as just a few hours ago: as reported by NPR and other news sources. If it was a one-off thing similar to the border clash on the Egypt-Gaza border, then sure, I could understand the argument, but this is clearly different. As the NPR article states, "An Israeli airstrike killed two Lebanese soldiers and wounded three other troops on Friday, Lebanon's military said, an incident that entangles the country's official army in the escalating conflict [(emphasis mine)] between Israel and Iran-backed Hezbollah militants in Lebanon." Just looking up the definition of "belligerent" makes that clear: "a nation or person engaged in war or conflict, as recognized by international law." The LAF are clearly engaged in this conflict, regardless of what their PR says. Reviewing the Wikipedia articles on Belligerent and Non-belligerent, it's clear that Lebanon is in the former classification and not the latter. JasonMacker (talk) 02:33, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. I think the current footnote is what is needed to deal with this nuance. Bitspectator ⛩️ 02:48, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I think the footnote should be expanded to note that while the LAF intended to stay out of the fighting, they have been involved to a limited degree. Cortador (talk) 06:41, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This might be getting slightly technical, but several sources have suggested an "International Armed Conflict" (IAC) exists between Lebanon and Israel, even before the invasion. "IAC" is a specific term in international law that has implications on how parties must behave, and is contrasted from "NIAC" (Non-International Armed Conflict). None of these sources deny that a NIAC exists between Israel and Hezbollah, but argue an IAC also exists between Israel and Lebanon.[1][2][3] The ultimate question for us is what exact criteria do we want to use before listing a party as a belligerent.VR (Please ping on reply) 16:27, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Said, Mohamed El-Sayed (18 September 2024). "Lebanon: Massive cyberattack risks further plunging region into war". Cairo Institute for Human Rights Studies (CIHRS).
  2. ^ "Military occupation of Palestine by Israel | Rulac". www.rulac.org. an international armed conflict exists between Israel and Lebanon.
  3. ^ Badreddine, Hussein (18 September 2024). "Israel, Hezbollah, and Lebanon: A Tripartite Conflict?". Opinio Juris.

UNIFIL Casualties

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Two peacekeeping soldiers from the Garuda Contingent were injured after their observation post was fired upon by IDF troops. The Indonesian government, through Foreign Minister Retno Marsudi, strongly condemned this attack.[1][2][3][4][5][6]


Additionally, there is a photo that serves as visual evidence, presented by Sindonews (Sindonews is one of Indonesia's credible media outlets), confirming that the Indonesian peacekeepers were indeed injured. [7]


I hope the information I have provided can be included in the conflict timeline and infobox, as I have observed that most of the sources cited in the infobox and timeline come from Al Jazeera. As additional information, the commander of the Garuda Contingent for UNIFIL is Colonel Gouvar. [8] Bukansatya (talk) 05:57, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any specific changes/additions you are requesting be made? If so, what? Mason7512 (talk) 16:17, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would just like to clarify the information regarding the timeline for August 10 and add references for it, as I believe that citing only news from Al Jazeera carries the risk of bias.
And I am not sure whether this is correct or not, but I would like to add the Garuda contingent as a party involved in the conflict in the infobox. Bukansatya (talk) 17:01, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is that there are 8 countries that have contributed troops that number more than 500. While is true that Indonesia has contributed the most troops for UNIFIL, it seems like the infobox should be representative of UNIFIL as a whole and not just one country. Thats why when I put the troop strength (10 000) for UNIFIL, i kept the combined number and didnt break it down individually for each country (which would take up a lot of space in the infobox for a peacekeeping force that isnt a main combatant!). Thats why I think it might be better to have a list of all of the national units involved somewhere in the UNIFIL article, and then the infobox here should link to that.--JasonMacker (talk) 03:39, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, thank you for your help Bukansatya (talk) 03:44, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More Israeli soldier Injured reported by Yedioth Ahronoth

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https://news.cgtn.com/news/2024-10-13/news-1xFrvPs43Li/p.html 2A02:AA1:114E:DFAE:FA94:9092:1F46:79D0 (talk) 11:10, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 October 2024

[edit]
  • What I think should be changed:

Under Strenght-Israel

−
12,000–14,000
+
15,000

And removing reference [d].

  • Why it should be changed:

Update number of troops to include all 4 divisions.

  • References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

The guardian, Middle East Eye Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 16:27, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done
Thank you for this suggestion. JasonMacker (talk) 19:13, 13 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nasrallah as Leader

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Although he was KIA, he was the leader for the first days of the Lebanon War, if you consider the pagers to be Day 1. I recommend adding to the Hezbollah leaders Hassan Nasrallah (KIA, Sept 27, 2024) 2601:602:8C81:C690:6CD6:6D69:2686:DD93 (talk) 21:19, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is based off of a timeline where the invasion starts on the 1st of October, when Israel officially announced/admitted to it's ground actions in Lebanon. Therefore, Hasan Nasrallah was never involved, but had already died once the invasion 'officially' began. If you think the official start of the invasion should be changed, that is another issue, but, as it is now, his addition would be inaccurate. He is still mentioned in the Background section, though. Mason7512 (talk) 23:58, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

UNIFIL

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While this discussion was ongoing, User:Durranistan added UNIFIL to the belligerents section of the infobox. I checked, and there is precedent for this, such as Mali war and War in Darfur, both of which have UN peacekeeping missions listed as belligerents. For that reason, I agree with the addition of UNIFIL here, but similar to the listing of the LAF, I added a clarifying note that UNIFIL is not actively engaged in hostilities.--JasonMacker (talk) 17:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I should add that this makes the debate about whether to include the LAF a bit silly. Under a standard in which UN peacekeeping missions can be listed as belligerents in conflicts, despite not firing upon anybody, surely LAF should be counted as a belligerent when they have returned fire on Israeli forces?--JasonMacker (talk) 17:09, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think peacekeepers should be listed as combatants if they actively engage in combat, but that's really not the case with UNIFIL. If it were, the countries that provide troops would effectively be at war. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 18:27, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not a country is "effectively" at war is not for us to decide. We leave that judgment to reliable sources. As for "engaged in combat", I think that armed personnel being fired upon counts as being "engaged in combat", even if they don't return fire. That's the conclusion I reached per the Engagement (military) article. Firing on UN personnel counts as the initiation of a combat engagement. However, it doesn't count as active engagement (on the part of UNIFIL), because UN peacekeepers did not return fire. So it would count as passive engagement since it required evacuation of combat personnel to a hospital to remove a bullet. JasonMacker (talk) 19:14, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We would literally need to rewrite military history. Switzerland shot down several German aircraft during WWII. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 22:40, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While Switzerland was not a belligerent in world war 2, it was a belligerent specifically when it came to violations of their airspace and other physical attacks on their territory. This is correctly described in the Aerial_incidents_in_Switzerland_in_World_War_II article's infobox that lists Switzerland as a belligerent. So, you can relax. No rewriting of military history needed. JasonMacker (talk) 22:54, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • UNFIL is definitely not on the "side" of the LAF, their mandate is neutral. I'm moving the LAF back under the Lebanese side. The other issue is that "medics killed" casualty counts also includes Hezbollah-affiliated medics. BBC reports: "One organisation has been hit more than any other. The Islamic Health Society (IHS), funded by Hezbollah, operates emergency services, hospitals and medical centres across the country." VR (Please ping on reply) 17:13, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update Israeli losses

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Channel 12 reports 5 dead and 9 wounded 185.127.127.27 (talk) 19:50, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://mobile.mako.co.il/news-military/036814c74a0e1910/Article-d63b42195aa9291027.htm?sCh=31750a2610f26110&pId=173113802&main_article=2&click_id=iRr4oFj6SV
This is the source 185.127.127.27 (talk) 19:51, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://t.me/HezbollahOperation/1081 2A02:AA1:1646:1CEC:235D:BA79:2162:6891 (talk) 20:11, 17 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli Civilian and Soldier Casualties per PM office

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Per ABC news, the prime minister’s office has reported at least 29 civilian deaths in the north and at least 29 soldier deaths in the north.

source:

https://abcnews.go.com/International/live-updates/israel-hamas-hezbollah/?id=114770972&entryId=114827282 108.21.97.157 (talk) 02:36, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Its not clear from when that's started counting. This article only counts from October 1st onwards. 141.226.93.8 (talk) 05:44, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Amount of Hezbollah fighters captured

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Per Times of Israel & Jerusalem post the IDF has captured another 3 Hezbollah fighters (members of the Radwan unit) moving the total to 4.

Sources:

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-824851 https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-troops-nabbed-3-hezbollah-commandos-hiding-under-building-in-south-lebanon/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Napoleon583 (talk • contribs) 18:57, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The post no longer exists 185.127.127.27 (talk) 20:09, 16 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
yes it does... 141.226.93.8 (talk) 05:44, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
now it worked 185.127.127.27 (talk) 13:16, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update Israeli losses According to Hezbollah

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Hezbollah reported 55 killed and over 500 wounded, claiming the destruction of 20 Merkava tanks, four military bulldozers, an armored vehicle, an armored personnel carrier, and two Hermes 450 drones. They noted that the death toll does not include casualties from attacked military bases, but only from clashes within Lebanon and at the border.source https://english.almanar.com.lb/22356422A02:908:A63:FC00:B8EC:AF26:487B:6498 (talk) 00:47, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide a source, thank you. Mason7512 (talk) 01:05, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://aje.io/0sp83l?update=3255356 2603:6081:6200:E9:78B2:3A8A:8D13:B16D (talk) 04:10, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Mason7512 (talk) 13:18, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New Hezbollah Statement about the damage inflicted on IDF

[edit]

According to Hezbollah officials via LBCI Lebanon,

Per Hezbollah, the damage inflicted on the IDF should be changed to 55 kills, 500+ wounded, 4 Bulldozers destroyed, 20 Merkava tanks, an armored vehicle, a troop carrier and two hermes 450 drones

Source:

https://www.lbcgroup.tv/news/lebanon-news/806771/hezbollah-says-it-continues-to-confront-israeli-aggression-inflicting/en 185.76.177.88 (talk) 09:14, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

already  Done Mason7512 (talk) 13:19, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

additional brigade

[edit]

per this link Israel has called up an extra brigade to the northern front, should that be included in the strength category? Rabawar (talk) 10:30, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What is the definition of "attack"?

[edit]

In the background section there is the following sentence:

"From 8 October 2023 to 20 September 2024, Hezbollah has launched 1,900 cross border attacks, and Israel has launched another 8,300. "

The source is an Al Jazeera article here: [4]https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/9/25/mapping-10000-cross-border-attacks-between-israel-and-lebanon

Neither the source or the article define what an "attack" is so I dont see the value of including this in the article. 2620:149:13C0:300:0:0:0:4E (talk) 20:05, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reservist dies from injuries, Update israeli losses

[edit]

The number of Israeli soldiers killed in Lebanon should be updated to 22, as the IDF has confirmed that a reservist fighting during the previous week has succumbed to their wounds and died.

The source is a Times of Israel news article: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-reservist-critically-hurt-in-southern-lebanon-fighting-succumbs-to-wounds/ Buonaparte3331 (talk) 03:09, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update Lebanese army casualties

[edit]

Today 3 Lebanese army were killed so this brings the total to 7. source 2605:B100:D21:3D25:69D7:1C4B:507B:AE22 (talk) 16:02, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hezbollah casualties according to IDF

[edit]

A report from Times of Israel has discussed the following news on Hezbollah casualties: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/halevi-says-idf-estimates-at-least-1500-hezbollah-operatives-killed-others-surrendering/ 2409:40E0:5B:DA55:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 17:18, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This could also mean that they've killed 1,500 Hezbollah members since October, as they article doesn't specify if these casualties are from the invasion or the overall conflict. Mauzer's random BS (talk) 16:24, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New Hezbollah rocket attacks

[edit]

Israel has reported 1 fatality and 13 (I originally said 53 which I apologize for as I was reading a different article on accident) injured in a recent Hezbollah rocket attack. This being said, any casualties from Hezbollah rocket attacks in Israeli territory should also be included since they'd be linked to this conflict. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/10/19/drone-hits-netanyahus-home-as-hezbollah-rockets-target-northern-israel Mauzer's random BS (talk) 18:30, 20 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IDF estimates

[edit]

So I checked out the article of the Times of Israel where the drastic estimate of 1,500 dead Hezbollah fighters was made by an IDF official, I believe they meant 1,500 SINCE October 7th, it would seem to add up. This is from another article of the Times of Israel "Israel’s military chief said Friday that at least 1,500 Hezbollah operatives are believed to have been killed in Lebanon since the start of the conflict" Mauzer's random BS (talk) 06:42, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Israeli friendly fire

[edit]

4 IDF soldiers were injured, 3 being from a friendly fire incident. "Also Friday the army said four soldiers had been seriously hurt in fighting in Lebanon the previous day, three of them as a result of friendly fire. The three, from the elite Maglan unit, were mistakenly hit by a shell fired by an Israeli tank. The IDF said it was investigating the incident." https://www.timesofisrael.com/hezbollah-drone-targets-netanyahus-house-in-caesarea-pm-wife-not-home-no-injuries/?utm_campaign=most_popular&utm_source=website&utm_medium=article_end&utm_content=1 Mauzer's random BS (talk) 06:53, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hashem safieddine is dead

[edit]

According to the Guardian and his wiki page — Preceding unsigned comment added by Napoleon583 (talk • contribs) 00:25, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Casualty section is too cluttered

[edit]

The casualty section of the battle box is wildly too cluttered.

Really, it is getting to a point where it is borderline unreadable for anyone trying to maintain brevity. It needs to be cleaned up and certain words need to be abbreviated.

For example, “surrendered” would be shortened to POW (prisoner of war). 2001:8003:3A18:E00:A4F7:2975:664:F26 (talk) 06:31, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It also makes no sense for the Lebanese army casualties to be above Hezbollah casualties, since the conflict is mainly between Israel and Hezbollah Mauzer's random BS (talk) 06:37, 21 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well currently we weirdly have Hezbollah medic casualties under the same side as UNFIL. And that's plain wrong. UNFIL's mandate is strictly neutral and there's no evidence that that have sided with Lebanon, let alone Hezbollah. We should have three columns: Israel, Lebanon and International, with casualties casualties of each nationalities in their respective columns.VR (Please ping on reply) 07:16, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, do we have any estimates of Hezbollah casualties from either Hezbollah or independent estimates? VR (Please ping on reply) 07:41, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Overall Lebanon death toll

[edit]

I know the overall since Oct 8, 2023 is reported to be 2,530[5], according to Lebanese health officials. The death toll on Sep 30 was 1,640 also according Lebanese health officials[6]. So it should be possible to do a WP:CALCULATION to determine that casualties since Oct 1 are 910.VR (Please ping on reply) 07:51, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New development

[edit]

IDF sources have accepted that their one hermes 900 drone was shot by Hezbollah. Kindly update is as per IDF. Source: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2024-04-08/ty-article/.premium/israeli-army-confirms-in-a-first-hezbollah-shoots-down-advanced-hermes-900-uav/0000018e-bd86-d92b-adaf-ffe63fde0000 Baltistani (talk) 16:38, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update the Israeli deathtool

[edit]

https://t.me/thecradlemedia/22888 2A02:AA1:1646:1CEC:BD27:9031:1DEA:33C6 (talk) 16:41, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

22 civilian deaths

[edit]

Please update civilian casualty numbers to reflect current date. There are more than 22 confirmed civilian deaths since the start of the conflict 2605:8D80:464:93B3:1F7:6F70:4F9B:D8CC (talk) 15:51, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[7]https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/israel-iran-strikes-lebanon-gaza-war-10-26-24#cm2qdftlq000p3b6muse3lx1w 2001:56A:FB72:A600:BAB2:E3B:CE5F:25DF (talk) 23:53, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hezbollah death toll

[edit]

The death toll was from a Times of Israel article that didn't say 1,500 Hezbollah fighters died after Oct 1, rather since the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah started in 2023. "Israel’s military chief said Friday that at least 1,500 Hezbollah operatives are believed to have been killed in Lebanon SINCE the start of the conflict there, while adding that the numbers could be higher" Mauzer's random BS (talk) 23:56, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update Israeli casualities.

[edit]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/four-idf-reservists-killed-14-wounded-in-battle-with-hezbollah-in-south-lebanon/ 2A02:AA1:1646:1CEC:DD6F:1F79:F45B:48F (talk) 19:44, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 October 2024

[edit]

Hi,

It is needed to change the Start date from October 1st to September 30th 7pm ET in the page summary and on the first sentence of the article to make this article clearer on its English version giving an accurate description of when the invasion actually started since it has already been unambiguously defined by multiple sources. And that ET is the widest used timezone by users of English version pages of Wikipedia.

Parts to change: 1) On September 30th 7pm ET, Israel invaded Southern Lebanon in an escalation of the ongoing Israel–Hezbollah conflict, a spillover of the Israel–Hamas war.

2) Date September 30th[c] – present (3 weeks and 5 days)

Main source: https://x.com/IDF/status/1840890054819864776

Thank you in advance. MaxBartlet (talk) 00:37, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done - This article isn't written according to the American Eastern Time Zone. The tweet was written when it was already 1 October 2024 in both Israel & Lebanon, the parties to this conflict that designate time zones. The fact that there were time zones in other parts of the world that were still 30 September 2024 is irrelevant. JasonMacker (talk) 18:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Added Commanders and leaders to the UNIFIL Infobox

[edit]

Axel Schulz should be added to the Commanders and Leaders section in the UNIFIL Infobox, as he serves as the Commander of the Maritime Task Force. On October 17, 2024, UNIFIL reported that one of the Maritime Task Force’s vessels shot down an unmanned aerial vehicle off the coast of Lebanon.[8][9]

Additionally, M Ghoffar Ngismangil [id] should be included, as he is the Commander of the Garuda Contingent for the UNIFIL Mission, and the Garuda Contingent is one of the involved units.[10][11] Bukansatya (talk) 16:32, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and added the other military leaders listed here. Axel Schulz is not listed there, but I added him. I added Ngismangil too. JasonMacker (talk) 20:03, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok thanks Bukansatya (talk) 23:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Title

[edit]

The title does not reflect current facts since October 1, because now the main subject of the article are the bombardement and not the ground operation. The ground operation are now limited, if the ground operation will have a largest superficy the title "invasion" will be justified but not now. I suggest to rename to Third Lebanon War like suggest in Talk:2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon/Archive 1#Requested move 3 October 2024. Nouill (talk) 17:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested an broadly rejected in that discussion. If you want this article name changed to Third Lebanon War, you need to demonstrate that this is actually a widely used name. Cortador (talk) 07:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't answer the question that this article is more about the bombardment that the ground operation, and that "2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon" title doesn't fit well with Wikipedia:Article titles. Nouill (talk) 10:22, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That doesn't matter. What matters is that "Third Lebanon War" isn't a widely used term. If you want to rename this article "2024 Israeli Bombardment of Lebanon", feel free to make a case for that. Cortador (talk) 12:18, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The neutrality of the actual title doesn't matter ? This is a questionable answer. Nouill (talk) 09:28, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think most will agree that a reasonable consensus was made that "Third Lebanon War" would be a non-neutral, inaccurate title. There's a reason the supposed "First" and "Second Lebanon War" (from the Israeli POV you are utilizing) are titled 1982 Lebanon War and 2006 Lebanon War. I agree that if you want to change the title, propose something else. Mason7512 (talk) 23:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update Israeli losses

[edit]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/four-idf-reservists-killed-14-wounded-in-battle-with-hezbollah-in-south-lebanon/ 4 killed 14 wounded 185.127.127.22 (talk) 17:50, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done.Mr.User200 (talk) 02:26, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Much appreciated 185.127.127.22 (talk) 11:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Israel hayom estimate

[edit]

https://english.almayadeen.net/latestnews/2024/10/29/israel-hayom--approximately-900-new-injured-soldiers-have-be Israel hayom believes there are 900 wounded, we should give them a small category under the Idf, please and thank you 185.127.127.22 (talk) 11:33, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Participation of Amal Movement?

[edit]

This Israeli source (https://israel-alma.org/2024/10/06/al-abbas-force/) claims that the Amal Movement has participated in the war on Hezbollah's side, and that it has a military wing and an elite unit of that military wing called the "Al-Abbas Force". For all I know, Amal did have an armed wing back during the civil war (Lebanese Resistance Regiments) that disbanded in 1991.

Is this source reliable? I can only find one other Arabic source (https://alwatanskynews.com/98673) that mentions this, which cites the Israeli source. Evaporation123 (talk) 01:06, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Amal still has an armed wing which took part in the Israel-Hezbollah conflict (2023-present) and also suffered some of it's operatives dead, some in direct confrontation and some in airstrikes so I think it should be added Waleed (talk) 16:55, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well it seems it got added already anyways. I just fixed up the order a little. Evaporation123 (talk) 18:33, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request: Map Update

[edit]

The Israelis have captured Kafr Kila and Khiam per TOI. And to add to that they have almost certainly taken most of the towns south of Khiam (they didn't just spawn there). edit: entered not captured — Preceding unsigned comment added by Napoleon583 (talk • contribs) 00:26, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources: [1] [2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Napoleon583 (talk • contribs) 00:23, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.timesofisrael.com/hezbollahs-radwan-force-planned-to-invade-israel-from-this-village-now-the-idf-controls-it/
  2. ^ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israeli-tanks-said-to-enter-deepest-point-in-southern-lebanon-so-far-in-fighting/

This conflict plays a major role in the Iran-Israel Proxy Conflict.

[edit]

It would make for more sense if Iran-Israel proxy conflict was also included as one of the conflicts that this invasion is a apart of. Hezbollah is a major proxy of Iran and has been since the 1980s, and it is clear that most of the resources of Hezbollah is allocated by the IRGC(specifically Quds Force). Kianmehr443 (talk) 03:23, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The number of pictures shows 61 israeli soldiers killed on october 2024

[edit]

https://t.me/HezbollahOperation/1357 2A02:AA1:1646:1CEC:8EB2:AAB5:33E4:2805 (talk) 12:26, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update Israeli deaths/injuries according to the IDF

[edit]

Five reservists were killed on Saturday according to the IDF, the death toll is now 42. [1]

References

  1. ^ https://www.timesofisrael.com/four-idf-reservists-killed-14-wounded-in-battle-with-hezbollah-in-south-lebanon/
Actually is 41 according to IDF and Israeli Gov.Mr.User200 (talk) 02:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Already done M.Bitton (talk) 20:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update Lebanese army casualties inside the template

[edit]

The total number of Lebanese army casualties is 11 not 7 so please update the number here is a source that say it's 11 (Lbc) 70.26.36.11 (talk) 22:46, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hezbollah & Israeli casualties

[edit]

Just 7 days ago Hezbollah claimed they suffered 900+ dead, this should be included, although I suggest it'd be written as "1,000+" since it is likely higher. Some sources also claim 62 IDF soldiers were killed since the invasion and Hezbollah claims 90+ IDF soldiers were killed. https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israeli-forces-lebanon-and-gaza-suffer-deadliest-month-2024 Mauzer's random BS (talk) 18:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Civilian casualties

[edit]

Should the infobox be updated to include civilian casualties on both sides? 104.218.158.89 (talk) 04:08, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would support this, although there have been 0 Israeli civilian casualties, something pretty typical for invasions. Mason7512 (talk) 20:14, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hezb has been killing a few with their rocket attacks 185.127.127.22 (talk) 06:08, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I believe those would fit more into the causalities of the wider Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present), as they were not killed in/ as a result of the invasion. Mason7512 (talk) 10:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we do: Latest says the official entire total is "2,865 [Lebanese] since October 2023"[12] Mason7512 (talk) 19:23, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Map Key and Colors

[edit]

tl;dr The colors of the map are confusing. Especially Israeli-occupied Lebanon. You can hardly tell the difference in colors between it and Israel.

And the colors on the key do not match the colors on the map.

Wall of text:

I'm VERY good at recognizing patterns. It's one of my gifts. And if I'm having issues, most other people will as well.

A map should illustrate something like an event in a quick snapshot. Most people won't take the time, as I did, to try and figure out faint differences in color or recognize the blue Israel key equals the soft purple on the map, the red Syria key equals the pink on the map, the bright blue teal key/soft green teal on map, much less the magenta key on the key that is just a slightly different shade of soft purple than Israel.

I like the map itself and how it's separated out. And I did learn something from it. I'm feeling very foolish as I thought Gaza was on the west side of Israel for some reason! (I think perhaps because I knew it was near a big water source and forgot about the Sea of Galilee!)

I'm not a graphic artist so don't know how to fix it. I know the key colors are too dark. I'd say, make the key colors match the map colors and change the Israeli-occupied Lebanon area to something more contrasting. Orange or green, maybe? Morphidae (talk) 14:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Iraq militias

[edit]

Iraqi militias, specifically the Islamic Resistance of Iraq militia, should be included as they're directly involved with their drone attacks on Israel and the Golan, which have been significant and destructive in cases Mauzer's random BS (talk) 02:28, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you can cite it and write it properly, you can add it (or make an edit request with your proposed material). Sirocco745 (talk) 05:34, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/iraqi-resistance-executes-operation-against-israeli-targets Mauzer's random BS (talk) 21:09, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Iranian support

[edit]

Since the U.S is listed as supporting Israel, it should make sense to list Iran as supporting Hezbollah Mauzer's random BS (talk) 04:11, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree 142.169.16.44 (talk) 19:26, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the US being listed as supporting Israel. While it's true that the US is an ally of Israel, Israel has a lot of allies. Should all of them be listed? There can be a new "foreign involvement" section that details US involvement in this war, but I'm not sure what could be talked about there. Let's focus on belligerents in the infobox only. JasonMacker (talk) 23:37, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the removal of “supported by” from the infobox. It is not informative. I think that we could write “supplied by” — as is in the infobox of the article Russo–Ukrainian war.
I will probably add “Supplied by: United States” for Israel, and wikilink in the case of Hezbollah — “Supplied by: See Hezbollah armed strength § Supply”. The supplies to Hezbollah are much less homogenous and transparent than those to Israel, which principally come from the US and Germany in this current phase. Y. Dongchen (talk) 01:15, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the key difference is that with Ukraine, military assistance is being sent specifically in response to the Russian attack. On the other hand, Israel has been receiving weapons from foreign countries from literally its inception. So the question becomes, does the consistent long-term military assistance to Israel that has continued through the invasion of Lebanon be considered assistance for this invasion of Lebanon specifically and be noted here? I'm okay with doing that. As I said, I'm not opposed to a "foreign involvement" section similar to the one for Russian invasion of Ukraine. We could note that several countries (US, Germany) have continued their military aid to Israel even after the Israel invasion of Lebanon. If I have time, I'll add that section this week myself and put a hatnote next to Israel in the infobox that links to that section of the article. For sources, I found this where Germany announced military aid to Israel even after Israel invaded Lebanon. It should be easy to find other sources too. JasonMacker (talk) 21:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Allies" has been added to the infobox columns. Thanks to whoever did that. Y. Dongchen (talk) 12:53, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
With regard to Germany, here are two sources (in German) by German papers that I came across last month:
Summary: foreign ministry stated late October that €94.05 million of armaments had been approved since August, in response to a parliamentary question. This contrasts sharply with the figure provided a few days earlier by the economy ministry, of €45.74 million for the year leading up to 13 October. Chancellor Scholz had said in parliament on 10 October 2024, "We have delivered weapons, and we will deliver weapons" ("Wir haben Waffen geliefert, und wir werden Waffen liefern"). It was in response to an intervention by Christian Democrat members accusing his government of not adequately arming Israel (more detail on that parliamentary debate: https://www.spiegel.de/politik/olaf-scholz-kuendigt-weitere-waffen-fuer-israel-an-a-d0072db3-313a-465c-bb9c-0d51736a05e3).
Then there is this article in Legal Tribune Online about a petition filed in the Frankfurt Administrative Court contesting the decision: https://www.lto.de/recht/nachrichten/n/vg-frankfurt-neuer-eilantrag-ecchr-waffenexporte-ruestungsexporte. Y. Dongchen (talk) 13:19, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Map needs change

[edit]

The IDF withdrew from Khiam according to al-mayadeen a reliable source whose been monitoring the ground invasion since the start https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/hezbollah-forces-israeli-troops--withdrawal-from-khiam--sout 185.142.40.148 (talk) 08:54, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Al Mayadeen is pro-Hezbollah. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 18:06, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So? The fighting in Khiam has stopped as well has any new advance attempt. If you read Hezbollah's statements its pretty clear that 1- they never entered the village the fighting was always on the outskirts of it and 2- in the past few days the they targetted gatherings of IDF troops outside the city a few times compared to the multiple times a day during the fighting which proves that the fighting has died down. Hezbollah is a much morw reliable source than the IDF which is looking to achieve and military gain in order to please their populus. If you don't think so please provide to me a reasonable agrument 185.142.40.114 (talk) 09:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What should we do about Yoav Gallant in the infobox?

[edit]

News has just broke out that Benjamin Netanyahu has fired Yoav Gallant[13][14]. How should we note that in the infobox? JasonMacker (talk) 18:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest a footnote or small text that his participation was from October to early November and similar for Israel Katz with a footnote or small text that his participation was from early November onward. --Super Goku V (talk) 22:29, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A footnote is fine. It is not unusual for leaders to be replaced during a war. Their term is not retrospectively diminished by the fact that they got replaced. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 09:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 November 2024

[edit]
  • What I think should be changed:

In the info-box

−
20 UN peacekeepers wounded
+
28 UN peacekeepers wounded
  • Why it should be changed:

Additional 8 Austrian UNIFIL troops were injured in a rocket attack on October 29th.

  • References supporting the possible change:

reuters Guy Haddad 1 (talk) 22:12, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 October 2024

[edit]

The total number of Lebanese army casualties is 11 not 7 so please update the number here is a source that say it's 11 (Lbc) 70.26.36.11 (talk) 02:12, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion of a "Per Hezbollah" casualty section

[edit]

Hezbollah themselves have claimed to have suffered 1,000+ fighters killed, this should be included since Hezbollah claims of IDF casualties are included, so it only makes sense to do so Mauzer's random BS (talk) 04:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's 1k for the entire conflict, not just the invasion, just like the Israeli claim 185.127.127.22 (talk) 17:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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