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Edward Colston

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Vowel length

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2020 Armenian–Azerbaijani skirmishes

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Bob Crane

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Woman

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Hyksos, the Exodus

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FBI files on Michael Jackson

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Bulgars

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List of largest empires

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Rafał A. Ziemkiewicz

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Order of Nine Angles

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Roman numerals

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Gilad Atzmon

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War of 1812

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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

There is an ongoing discussion about the results of the war of 1812, and how those results are shown in the results field, in the infobox. The article notes there is a dispute among historians as to who won the war of 1812, with some historians(Majority) saying it was a stalemate/draw, but others(a significant minority) say that Britain/Canada won. The viewpoint on who won differs between the two countries, with Canadians generally believing they won and the United States popularly say it was a stalemate/draw. I have proposed that for NPOV reasons, the result section in the infobox should reflect both views. The point was previously agreed to and consensus was that both viewpoints should be reflected in the infobox, as that would reflect what the article says - that discussion is here: [[16]]. This was changed later by a sole editor without consensus or discussion.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[[17]] [[18]]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Both myself and Davide King have debated this and while we agree on somethings, we cannot agree on others, and have both agreed that a third party should look at the issue.

Summary of dispute by Elinruby

I am "involved" to the extent that I have been doing a third-party edit on the article, which has suffered from copyvios from old texts with archaic language and complete dismissal of any but cherry-picked texts. In my opinion the entire infobox should probably be deleted rather than have editors spend another decade shoe-horning in complex information. But. If the article must have an infobox, and apparently it must, all of the issues with balance and weight need to be resolved. Adding the defeat of Tecumseh helps. Adding that Washington and York were put to the torch also helps. I would like to see a reference for status quo ante bellum and a clarification that this applied specifically to the border between the United States and Upper and Lower Canada, since many tribes were displaced in the aftermath of this war. Elinruby (talk) 13:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Davide King

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

I am not going to waste my time repeating obvious things. Just read this summary (fixed typo here).--Davide King (talk) 13:07, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

By the way, The Four Deuces, Ironic Luck, Red Rock Canyon, Rjensen, Shakescene, Tirronan and perhaps others should have been added too as they were all involved in some way. Why are they not included or mentioned at all?--Davide King (talk) 13:13, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

(1) I looked at who was posting on the specific thread, it was mainly you and I, and it was you and I who both agreed third party comment would be good (2) I have posted a note on the talk page for anyone interested to be involved, with a link to this notice so they can certainly join in if they wan (3) Some of them have expressed the view they *Do not* want to discuss it, though I agree, I think The Four Deuces may so I will put something on his talk page and I have added him above - Cheers. Deathlibrarian (talk) 13:21, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Also, the infobox does not say it was a draw; it says it was military stalemate which is not disputed even by those who say one side won. What is disputed (by a minority) is that it was a draw; it is not disputed that de facto it was a military stalemate. Military stalemate is also not mutually exclusive that one side, despite the de facto military stalemate per the Treat of Ghent, may have won according to some historians or popular views. What is mutually exclusive is draw and one side won, but we do not say either. We just say it was a military stalemate per the Treaty of Ghent. So I find this discussion unnecessary as per Shakescene we already had a long discussion that did not got us anywhere and that [took] up the equivalent of 12 printed pages or requires someone reading it on a desktop to hit "Page Down" about 15 times [...]. Besides it's really a variant of a position [Deathlibrarian has] been unsuccessfully litigating for a dozen years since 2008. At least as far as the outcome is concerned, the infobox is perfectly fine.--Davide King (talk) 13:51, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Ykraps

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Like it or not, 'stalemate' is not a neutral term, it is a point of view, and not one that all historians subscribe to. Historians may not agree on the result of the war but all of them agree that it is disputed. Some editors have made this an argument about who won or fringe theories which, to me, shows a lack of understanding as to what the proposal is. If the infobox redirects to the section where the result is discussed, each point of view can be represented and given appropriate weight. This is in line with the infobox parameter guidelines here.[[19]] As things stand, if you are the sort of reader that looks solely at the infobox, you will be left with the impression that stalemate is the universally accepted view, and that is quite wrong.--Ykraps (talk) 19:43, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by The Four Deuces

The dispute is about whether the info-box should say the outcome of the war was a draw or something else. One side says that we should report it as a draw, because that is how it is reported in textbooks and other tertiary sources. the other side says that because a small number of historians and popular opinion in the Province of Ontario have challenged the generally accepted view, claiming it was either a British, American or Canadian victory, we should report that the outcome is disputed. TFD (talk) 18:25, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Red Rock Canyon

The issue is over the infobox, specifically the "Result" section. Previously, the text there had enjoyed consensus for at least 3 years. Then last month some editors proposed a change. There was a short discussion and the change was implemented. Then some other editors objected and changed it back, and opened an RFC (now at Talk:War of 1812/Archive 23#Rfc about the outcome of the War of 1812). The RFC was poorly worded, leading to confusion among respondents (different editors making identical comments about what they believed the text should be framed their answers as both "yes" and "no"), but it was well-attended, with 12 editors commenting. Even while the RFC was ongoing, multiple editors opened many separate threads on the talk page about the same topic. The talk page quickly became obscenely long. Shakescene archived most of the talk page, including the still-active RFC [20]. The massive walls of text and proliferation of this debate into a half dozen different discussions is bewildering and exhausting. There are too many editors involved for this to be resolved on DRN. I believe the ideal solution is to shut down all the parallel discussions, including this one, and compose a clearly-worded RFC that gives editors two options (the long-standing consensus version and Deathlibrarian's proposed change). Then widely advertise it, including to participants in the previous RFC. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 13:58, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Ironic Luck

There was no reason to change that particular set of words from the infobox as the War of 1812 is factually established as a military stalemate which resulted in status quo ante bellum. This led to differing views (in Memory and historiography) of “who really won” the war. A significant portion of the sources stated that the war ended in as a draw or that both sides won. Some claim British/Canadian or American victory.

The reasoning that was proposed by DeathLibrarian reveals a double-standard in the Canadian/British perspective. The same defensive argument proclaiming that British territories (Upper/Lower Canada) won the War of 1812 could be flipped with the American state of Louisiana. Louisiana was not considered American territory by the British (as it was sold to the United States by Napoleonic France in the Louisiana Purchase) and probably would have been returned to allied-Spain if their invasion was successful.

I questioned how the British (and especially Canada) could claim victory when the Democratic-Republicans side of the United States celebrated their victory as they (strictly them) hadn’t lost anything in the war. There was even a Federal holiday to celebrate their victory (The Eighth) and lasted until the American Civil War broke out. The Americans in the modern era (generally) don’t care about the war. Canadian perspective is skewed with the Harper administration placing a large budget into commercial ads promoting nationalism with the “Canadian victory” narrative - when Canada wasn’t even a nation until 1867. Why "British/Canadian Victory-Stalemate" when the Americans felt they won at the time?

I conclude (as of now) that the number of historians that DeathLibrarian brings up as a Canadian/British Victory is an overblown proportion. Some of the sources he brought up stated that both sides claimed victory – perhaps a military stalemate linking to the memory and historiography section is a good idea? Ironic Luck (talk) 14:16, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Statement by Robert McClenon

I have read the article that states that Canada won the war. That statement is meant somewhat humorously, and is not meant to imply a British victory. That statement means that the inconclusive war between the United States and Great Britain, in which there was a failed American invasion of Canada, which was British (being the part of British North America that had not become independent in the 1775-1783 war), advanced the evolving concept of Canadian identity and of Canada as a distinct region that would continue to evolve into a nation. The statement was never meant to imply a British victory. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:09, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

War of 1812 discussion

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Panko Brashnarov

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2020 Armenian–Azerbaijani skirmishes ‎

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Names and titles of God in the New Testament

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