Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 193
This is an archive of past discussions about Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current main page. |
Archive 190 | Archive 191 | Archive 192 | Archive 193 | Archive 194 | Archive 195 | → | Archive 200 |
Sharyl Attkisson
First, all listed users involved must be notified on their personal talk pages. That, in and of itself, would not be enough to close this dispute, neither would the fact that Sphilbrick (talk · contribs) was never involved with the discussion so its unclear why he was included here. However, the fact that this dispute occurred over 20 days ago and had VERY little back and forth then, and none since then, means that yall have not made a good faith effort to resolve this yourselves. You must engage in polite discussion and attempt to find a compromise on your own on the article talk page before you bring the issue here. A good faith effort is more than 5 comments. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:45, 10 August 2020 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Britannia (TV series)
Closed. The two accounts that were pressing the claim of plagiarism have been indefinitely blocked for probable sockpuppetry. The POV tag has been removed because the only neutrality concern was raised by blocked accounts. This appears to resolve all disputes about the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:46, 4 August 2020 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Kamala Harris
Closed. There isn't likely to be an article content dispute about Kamala Harris, for at least four reasons. First, the filing party says that they want an objective benchmark on missed votes by politicians, but they haven't answered the question of whether they are making that argument in particular about Kamala Harris or about politicians in general, although the question was asked. Second, this noticeboard, which is for article disputes, isn't the right forum for a rule about politician articles in general. Third, moderated discussion isn't likely to be effective when there are twelve or thirteen parties. Fourth, at least one of the editors says that there is a conduct problem about the filer, and this noticeboard doesn't deal with conduct disputes. Depending on what they want, editors can: submit a Request for Comments at Talk:Kamala Harris; submit a Request for Comments in a WikiProject or an MOS page; resume discussion at Talk:Kamala Harris; or report the conduct at WP:ANI or Arbitration Enforcement. This dispute is closed. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:58, 4 August 2020 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Bob Crane
Closed. Discussion at DRN requires previous significant discussion at the article talk page. One post by each editor is not extended discussion. Also, the filing editor has not notified the other editors. Resume discussion at the article talk page. A thread can be properly filed if discussion is extended and inconclusive. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:47, 5 August 2020 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Elon Musk
Closed. It appears that the filing editor is withdrawing the request for moderated discussion. Discussion can resume on the talk page, or a new RFC can be used that is differently worded. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:43, 6 August 2020 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Israel
This dispute appears to have been concluded. |
Closed discussion |
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Arameans
Closed. There are two problems, one of which could be solved. The filing party has not listed the other editors, and has not notified them. That could be solved by listing and notifying them (the editors who discussed on the talk page). Second, the filing party has filed a Request for Comments. The Request for Comments take precedence over any other form of dispute resolution. The RFC will be allowed to run for 30 days. Interested editors should provide their views at the RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:10, 7 August 2020 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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TheDonald.win
48 hours is not a sufficient time to adequately try to work this out on your own. I would advise that all parties involved step back and take emotion/passion out of the discussion. Instead of demanding answers and quoting policy without explanation- try presenting other verifiable sources that prove your point or explaining the specific section of the policy and how it applies. This is a case where a little civility would go a long way to solving the problem. If, in a few more days, you still can't solve the problem among yourselves, you are welcome to re-open a case OR do an RFC. But please- try to be nicer to each other and you might be amazed what you can solve. I'm not saying anyone's behavior is at the point of needing warnings.... I'm just saying you all seem to be on the attack, rather than an academic, calm discussion. Nightenbelle (talk) 13:44, 13 August 2020 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Nick Berg
This discussion has been going on less than 24 hours. There has been minimal effort to reach a conclusion on your own. You have both stated your perspective and then given up and come here. Please try to find a solution on your own first, then perhaps ask for a WP:3O or WP:RFC. If that doesn't work in a few more days, then you are welcome to come back here and ask for mediation. Nightenbelle (talk) 13:54, 13 August 2020 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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National Rally
DRN does not accept cases where dispute resolution is pending in other forums or processes. A RFC on this issue is pending at the article talk page. If that RFC does not resolve the issue after it has run its course - ordinarily 30 days - then this case may be refiled for new consideration. — TransporterMan (TALK) 21:47, 13 August 2020 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Eugene Scalia
24 hours is not enough time to have realistically tried to solve the problem yourself. In addition- since there does appear to be a consensus on leaving the article as is- it is on the person wanting to change it (IE the filing editor in this case) to open an RFC. At least 3 editors are fine with the information as presented. A non-biased RS has been provided. Please try an RFC and more discussion on the talk page- they have suggested you write a well sourced counter point which is an excellent option- before opening a DRN. If you do re-open a DRN in the future, please make sure you are listing all invovled editors and notifying them on their personal talk pages. Thank you. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:38, 14 August 2020 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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The Heritage School (Newnan, GA)
Closing to give more time for discussion on the talk page and also due to the block against filing editor. Filing editor has a stated WP:COI as a "founding member" and is trying to insert WP:OR in the form of his experience. I suggest that OP find some WP:RS to support his arguments and suggest changes on the article talk page. Once RS have been found and suggested- that discussion can happen on the talk page. If there are still conflicts at that point, you are welcome to refile a DRN. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:33, 15 August 2020 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Swaminarayan Sampradaya
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Kbhatt22 (talk · contribs)
- Apollo1203 (talk · contribs)
- Moksha88 (talk · contribs)
- TheNDNman224 (talk · contribs)
- Harshmellow717 (talk · contribs)
- Skubydoo (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
Hello, I don't know where to start. First off thank you for the time. I have been trying to bring neutral consensus for over 2 weeks now and am requesting outside assistant. I myself have remained civil and am trying to stick to WIKI policies. I asked peaceray for direction and he sent me here. basically 2 weeks ago, some IPs came and removed content they claimed was bias, Edit warring ensued. The IPs made roughly 16 edits. No discussion at that point, both sides were just undoing each other. I stepped in and tried to be neutral and outlined the 4 points I found that had merit and I corroborated 4 of the 16 edits with more sources, my changes were also undone.
I have tried to stay neutral in all this and respectful. I see merit on both sides but the one side is removing anything they don't like that the IP adds and the IP is removing stuff they feel is BAPS/branch specific specific. I proposed a neutral consensus/resolution. I proposed that the page remain strictly to temples, idols and scriptures created by religion founder and then it link off to each branch where that branches ideology can be outlined. This page is currently dominated by one branch, using a lot of one branches documents for support which would violate the (Wikipedia:Neutrality of sources) policy as well is the independent sources policy by my understanding as they have a vested interest being one branch within the Swaminarayan family. Even from imagery, there is 9 images on that page and 8 are from BAPS and 3 specifically highlight their leader even tho the image is suppose to be about something else. These red flags are acknowledged but no consensus on a lot of the proposed changes is able to be reached.
I proposed edits on my sandbox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kbhatt22/sandbox I can link almost 90% of the images and a large amount of sources originate exclusively from one branch that is attempting to represent the entire religion when that branch wasn't founded for 100 years after the religions origin. I am simply suggesting diversification of sources and images on the page. I have proposed replacement images with reasoning that diversify and simplify the page.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Swaminarayan_Sampradaya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kbhatt22/sandbox
I have provided sources, and ample reasoning and logic for my proposed changes. Consistently, the users who have a history of working together on this content as well as the similar IPs either ignore certain points I make or take turns responding so I am constantly making the same points with limited counter discussion. I feel like an independent entity with no bias to the subject would benefit this dispute.
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
I didn't start this dispute. I just tried to help both sides reach a consensus and this has turned into a 3 week drag along. I am just hoping someone with no outside bias or no history of work in the section but a veteran of wiki could help. I have been respectful, neutral, and tried to be logical. If I am wrong, I will take it from someone who has the neutral viewpoint. I just do not see what is wrong with my proposed edits pushing for diversification and equal inclusion of all branches.
Summary of dispute by Apollo1203
Hi all. I got involved as I had followed the discussion on the proposed photo edits. I agreed with some of Kbhatt’s points, like updating the leadership details of one group and reordering the links. I also agreed with him and other users to change the photos to be more inclusive. However, there were inconsistencies in what Kbhatt proposed, like taking issue with images with religious leaders of specific branches yet then proposing an image with a religious leader of a specific branch. I suggested more viable photos needed to be proposed and copyright permissions acquired to resolve the picture discussion. I had actually already reached out for copyright permission for certain photos that should have led to more diversity, but I was waiting for a reply from the copyright owner, when Kbhatt apparently decided that it was taking “too long” and escalated the discussion to this forum (prematurely, in my opinion). Another issue was whether reliable sources were being used. I believe I clearly outlined how the sources I had used are reliable and how they meet all the requirements as per Wikipedia policies. As the sources follow the criteria, I don’t understand on what legitimate basis Kbhatt is questioning those sources. Apollo1203 (talk) 03:07, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Moksha88
I am surprised Kbhatt22 escalated this here, particularly because we had reached consensus on several edits, like updating details on leadership (Edit 2) and not misrepresenting the author’s words (Edit 3).1 However, I feel the points of disagreement arise from inconsistent reasoning. For instance, he has now changed his mind on Edit 3.1 On one hand, he claimed to want to be inclusive of all traditions within this religion yet initially framed issues on his sandbox by assigning sides.1 In addition, even when sources fully meet WP:RS, 12 he complains sources are not reliable 1234 yet produces 3 sources as supporting evidence, of which 2 are primary sources.1 2 Moreover, I feel that a general lack of organization in Kbhatt22’s posts and keeping things clear on Kbhatt22’s sandbox, led to confusion for other editors and contributed to the delay in reaching consensus (which is what he says led him to this forum). For example, he spoke about introducing diversity in the pictures.1 While it seemed that most editors agreed with him in principle,123 his proposed solutions were a bit disorganized so that editors’ views on each point did not always lead to clarity regarding consensus. I attempted to organize things on the sandbox so editors would be able to properly discuss each point,1 and rather than everyone trying to further clarify there, Kbhatt22 escalated this issue on this forum. For content, I don’t see any dispute that has arisen on this article, that a more committed effort at organized, collaborative discussion will not resolve. Moksha88 (talk) 20:48, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by TheNDNman224
It should be noted that this discussion was initially instigated by unregistered users, all of whom were later proven to be sockpuppets of User:Applebutter221. I had recommended using the sandbox to facilitate this discussion (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Swaminarayan_Sampradaya&diff=next&oldid=968054112) as it was hard to follow the discussion for all the edits proposed by Kbhatt22. From my perspective, at the core of this disagreement is the validity of sources used. Kbhatt22 raised concerns about whether the sources in the article were reliable. I looked into the sources used in the article and realized that the sources undergirding the points Kbhatt22 is questioning are not unreliable, but in fact, are academic secondary sources according to WP:RS, which has been pointed out in the talk page. (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Swaminarayan_Sampradaya&diff=prev&oldid=969913712). Once this is accepted, I don’t think there is too much left to dispute, as the points in the article are written for the most part as per these reliable sources. The issue of the Lekh seems to be a sticking point for Kbhatt22, but I think it has been explained by other editors, which makes sense to me, so I will not belabor that point here. Also, Kbhatt22 raised the question of changing some of the pictures, and I think the general consensus in the talk page was on changing some of them. There was an ongoing discussion as to both the particulars of the change as well as apparently some efforts to get appropriate copyright permissions by some editors according to Kbhatt22’s suggestion, which takes time. Before allowing for these issues to be resolved, the discussion was frozen by the escalation to this noticeboard. Further complicating matters was the disruptive behavior of the sockpuppet. Now, I think the best resolution to this issue would be to restart the discussion on the talk page without the disruptive sock puppet, and have all the interested editors work through the details of the pictures patiently. ThaNDNman224 (talk) 17:47, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Harshmellow717
I initially became involved in this discussion when I attempted to engage with an unregistered user (who later turned out to be an indefinitely banned sockpuppet) who was edit warring (1). Since then many of the edits Kbhatt22 (talk · contribs) proposed have reached consensus (2). I have attempted to facilitate discussion over some of the proposed edits by formatting the talk page so that each edit can be discussed independently (3, 4). As I understand it the current unresolved discussion is surrounding 1) the classification of the Lekh as an administrative document or a scripture (see diff). 2) Whether the phrase “Akshar-Purushottam Darshan” and its underlying ideology is branch specific (see diff). As I indicated on the talk page according to the secondary sources (see in more detail here), in the Swaminarayan Sampradaya, the Lekh is a legal administrative document accepted by only two branches, and not a scripture accepted by all branches of the sampradaya. Moreover, the academic sources indicate “Akshar-Purushottam Darshan” to be branch agnostic as it is philosophy propounded by Swaminarayan (the founder of the Swaminarayan Sampradaya) in his primary theological text, the Vachanamrut. While Kbhatt22 (talk · contribs) disagrees with me on these points, I appreciate Kbhatt22 (talk · contribs)’s willingness to engage in discussion.
It should be noted that once the talk page discussion was initiated, Applebutter221 (talk · contribs) joined the discussion and in conjunction with unregistered users attempted to force their viewpoint. To this end Applebutter221 (talk · contribs) also tried to convince several users (see some examples - 1, 2, 3, 4) to push consensus in their favor (WP:CANVAS). The unregistered users and Applebutter221 (talk · contribs) were part of an sockpuppet investigation and have been subsequently banned. Harshmellow717 (talk) 03:03, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Skubydoo
Hello, I came across this page last week from the NPOV Noticeboard[1] and figured the users could benefit from a neutral third party’s involvement. The main issue appears to be that an IP address made disruptive edits on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya article which started the still ongoing discussion on the talk page.[2] There seems to be assumptions by some users about other users’ perspectives [3], which is making things personal.
I’m not sure why this matter was escalated here amidst an already productive discussion, other than for Kbhatt22 to get their own way. Kbhatt22 has proposed edits to the page which have guided the discussion. On their sandbox and the article’s talk page, there was unanimous consensus reached over two edits.[4] Those in the discussion are currently working to reach consensus on other proposed edits about chronology of links, scriptures, and image use.[5] I think since the consensus for a few of these issues appears to be against Kbhatt22's proposed edits in the article talk page, Kbhatt22 seems to want to circumvent further discussion instead of accepting the consensus.
Kbhatt22 seems to be crusading for a specific point of view (WP:POVFIGHTER) which I have already warned them[6] against. I have already asked Kbhatt22 to consider making their own original contributions instead of trying to police the contributions of other users. Kbhatt22 states that the content in the article is based on biased sources[7], but from the evidence presented , almost all of the sources seem to be reliable academic, secondary sources.[8]
I would encourage Kbhatt22 to continue to do the hard work of collaborating with others and making original contributions. Not every edit that one proposes is going to be agreed with by the larger Wikipedia community, even if one feels strongly about it. I will continue to moderate the discussion, and can bring the discussion back here if they reach an impasse.
Best wishes, Skubydoo (talk) 06:06, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
Swaminarayan Sampradaya discussion
- I would like to keep the topic of this dispute focused on the 4 edits proposed in my sandbox if we can. Individual comments can be whatever you feel is pertinent but I'd rather the reviewer of the dispute only have to focus on these 4 edits tied to this request. Thanks! Kbhatt22 (talk) 20:15, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- Hi, with all due respect this is not the forum for this. This is the policy for this section "This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion." Please refrain from making this dispute about the people. If you feel their is bias by any users then their is probably a forum for that. This is about finding resolution simply of the edits proposed in my sandbox. Thanks Kbhatt22 (talk) 00:25, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
I feel the need to respond to Skubydoo since he made this a personal attack. Please stick to the merit of the edits proposed per the policy of this dispute forum. Another user apparently has stated he represents the swaminarayan branch, and you are going to say I have a biased and POV perspective for saying I am not a part the branches so can be subjective? I was not aware of this at the time but was clicking through the things Applebutter mentioned above and found it disheartening that one user has admitted to bias, and that despite me outlining the sources being scholarly, they originate entirely from one branch (Almost 90% of images arer branch specific) and are promoting ideology for that branch as if it represents all branches and their is a pattern of removal of anything that falls outside that branch. I beg the Moderator to skim through the entire dialog. Yes I may have made a mistake or two in wording, but remained civil and constructive the entire way through and neutral. I was not proposing removing everything, simply diversification of sources and images. of the 16 edits, I only saw merit in 4 and brought it too the talk page and bolstered it with sources. For you to say I am leading a crusade to get my way is hurtful when others seem to have shown a bias and you are targeting me over suggesting we need diversification. This is not a crusade for me to get what I want. I did independent research and proposed a mix of revisions and original contributions and the points we reached consensus on were both in my favor and not in my favor. I am literally the only one who can say that. We did reach an impasse because the dialog has stopped for days and no one is willing to address the valid red flags I have raised and this NEEDS a neutral admin to review what is happening here. I would like us to continue focusing on the merit of the edits and not make this personal. This will make it clearer and hopefully save the admin some time reviewing this Kbhatt22 (talk) 11:52, 31 July 2020 (UTC)
- Hi Kbhatt22, I didn’t mean for my observations to feel like a personal attack, and so I am sorry that you feel this way. I have been following along on the talk page and saw that you assigned sides for users in your replies and in your sandbox when it was unnecessary, even after I called attention to it. This didn’t signal to me that you are looking for collaboration but for a way of diverting collaboration. If that was not your intention, I really do apologize. I am not clear on how reimagining this conversation as a dispute is going to help foster the collective thinking and dialogue that a strong Wikipedia article needs. Rather than trying to understand the evidence and policies presented by other users, It really does appear to me that you are attempting to bring intervention into a discussion because all of your ideas are not being favored. This is not a personal attack, but an observation I am making about this course of action. I hope that helps clarify my intentions. Let me know if I can clarify anything else. Best wishes, Skubydoo (talk) 03:22, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
- Hey. I stopped assigning sides once you told me too. If i did accidentally do it, I apologize as well. And even before I did, it was never specific users. I did however establish sources were one sided. I have always strived for collaboration and neutral consensus. I still have respect for you and all the users involved so far. The reason why this was raised here is because we were all going along in discussion and things seemed to have escalated across dozens of pages among almost a dozen users and some users previous statements of representing a specific branches were raised and it felt like a true neutral moderator was needed. Especially on edit 1. I bowed out every place where consensus was against me and agreed with everyones logic but that is one edit that I feel is being strongly objected for no valid reason. It doesn't help that the comments from the now blocked user were removed from the discussion as we have dozens of orphaned responses that add to the confusion. A admin moderator would strongly help on edit 1 especially. Kbhatt22 (talk) 05:11, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Possible Statement by Moderator
I am willing to try to moderate this dispute, but I have a few comments and questions. First, I know nothing of the dispute up until now. Second, read the usual ground rules, which will be in effect if we begin discussion. Third, is this strictly a content dispute, or is this about user conduct also? If this is about both content and conduct, is everyone willing to put conduct issues aside, and try to resolve the content? Fourth, will every editor please provide a one-paragraph summary of what they think the issue is. Be civil and concise. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:02, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Possible First Statements by Editors
Hi Robert McClenon. Thank you so much for for taking the time to moderate this. I am excited and happy to have you. I will try to be concise. I do not wish for this do be about conduct of anyone or about users. Simply the merit of the content. The best way I can summarize this dispute is it is about the inclusion of a scripture under the "Scriptural Traditions" section on the Swaminarayan Sampradaya page. The excerpt from page 208 of this book (sourced dozens of times already on the page) perfectly captures this dispute.
- "The original Ahmedabad and Vadtal dioceses value the Lekh, where as those groups that emphasis the authority of the sadhus over the acharya and different lineages of gurus downplay or ignore the lekh as simply an administrative document for temporary application and not as sacred scripture. Baps emphasizes the Swamini Vato, which contains the sayings of Gunatitanand."
Currently the page lists the scripture "Swamini vato" under that section. Someone proposed removing that scripture and replacing it with the "Desh Vibhah Lekh". Some users do not want to include the "Desh Vibhah Lekh" under the scriptures section claiming the same reasoning as outlined above and wish to continue to only list "Swamini Vato" under scriptures. My proposal is that since both have fundamental importance to the tradition of various branches, and this page represents the faith as a whole, we simply include both. This is a simple summary of the first proposed edit in dispute. I am not sure what is wrong with this approach and why including both is so objected. Kbhatt22 (talk) 11:56, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Hello Robert McClenon (talk · contribs), I Just posted my summary of dispute above, is this what you were referring to? Or am I supposed to post a one paragraph summary here under the "first statements" section? Thanks, Harshmellow717 (talk) 03:18, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
I know it says I have 48 hour to respond to anything. I don't believe their is anything for me specifically to respond too yet but want to make sure I am showing that I am still engaged in this request. Thank you Kbhatt22 (talk) 19:21, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Second Statement by Moderator
If you have already made a one-paragraph statement, you may repeat it, or you may explain in one paragraph why you disagree with a previous statement. If you have made a statement that is longer than one paragraph, please summarize it in one paragraph, focusing only on what will be in the article. Remember that I don't understand the details (unlike the periodic table dispute) and I don't expect to understand the details. It appears that the dispute has to do with what writings should be considered scriptures. If that is the issue, focus on that. If there is another issue also, please identify it. Be civil and concise. Some of you have only been civil. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:26, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Second Statements by Editors
You are correct Robert McClenon. I will mostly echo my earlier statement. The excerpt from page 208 of this book (sourced dozens of times already on the page) perfectly captures this dispute.
- "The original Ahmedabad and Vadtal dioceses value the Lekh, where as those groups that emphasis the authority of the sadhus over the acharya and different lineages of gurus downplay or ignore the lekh as simply an administrative document for temporary application and not as sacred scripture. Baps emphasizes the Swamini Vato, which contains the sayings of Gunatitanand." -https://www.google.com/books/edition/Introduction_to_Swaminarayan_Hinduism/ODdqDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=lekh
Currently the page lists the scripture "Swamini vato" under that section. Someone proposed removing that scripture and replacing it with the "Desh Vibhah Lekh". Some users do not want to include the "Desh Vibhah Lekh" under the scriptures section claiming it as an "administrative document" as outlined above. My proposal is both have fundamental importance to the tradition of various branches. This page represents the faith as a whole. We should include both. We already list texts that originate and are accepted strictly by one branch i.e "swaminarayan bhashyam" so why not list one accepted by most branches but at the very least acknowledged by all. The section merely lists scriptures and then links to their landing page. By pushing the notion that it is an "administrative document" and should not be included in scriptures, we as Wikipedia contributors are taking sides in an ideological difference within the faith. The branches that accepts the lekh have existed since the origin of the faith and were established under the founder. The branch that downplays the lekh didn't officially exist until almost a century later. Regardless we should not be taking sides in this ideological difference. We are merely listing it and linking to its Wiki page like the rest of the texts in that section.
Just for clarification. This is the only issue raised on the dispute board. It is the only one I wish to exhaust any of Robert McClenon time on. 88% of the images originate from the same branch that downplays the lekh but once this Lekh dispute is resolved, I will make another attempt to continuing that discussion with the other users on the talk page to avoid occupying the moderators time. Thank you! Kbhatt22 (talk) 11:46, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you Robert McClenon (talk · contribs) for moderating. As I indicated on the talk page according to the secondary sources, in the Swaminarayan Sampradaya, the “Lekh” is a legal administrative document accepted by only two branches, and not a scripture accepted by all branches of the sampradaya. Williams makes it clear that the “Lekh” is only accepted by two branches, but not by others. While he states the Swamini Vato is a primary text for one branch, Williams doesn’t say that it is not accepted as a scripture by other branches. In fact, the Swamini Vato is published and accepted as a scripture by all the branches of the sampradaya, [here are a few examples 1, 2, 3, 4]. Regarding the “Lekh”, the most authoritative scholarly source I found on this topic was by a Prof. Dave - where he wrote a ten page chapter focused solely on the “Lekh” titled “Reappraisal of the ‘Lekh’” in New Dimensions of Indology (1997). He states that the “Lekh” is “the constitution of the acarya parampara” laying out the legal distribution of property and rights of the two acharyas (the heads of the two dioceses). Thus, it is “considered an important document” for the Nar-Narayan and Laxmi-Narayan branches. However, he notes that other branches, like the “Swaminarayan Gadi of Maninagar...totally reject the ‘Lekh’” and BAPS, Anoopam Mission, Yogi Divine Society, Gunatit Samaj, etc. consider it only an “administrative document” that has no “philosophical importance”. The rest of the chapter is mainly focused on how the “Lekh” submitted by the Nar-Narayan and Laxmi-Narayan branches to the court are not the same documents, raising questions about the validity and historicity of the document itself. But the point I got from this source is that the “Lekh” is not accepted as a scripture by the majority of the branches of the Sampradaya, and the two branches that do accept it see it primarily as a legal document about splitting property and rights between two cousins. Interestingly, the official website of the Nar-Narayan branch does not list the “Lekh” in its scriptures section [5]. They further write, “At Vadtal, Shreeji Maharaj established the dual Acharyaship, in direct succession to Himself. This He did by means of a legal document (known as Desh Vibhagno Lekh), which He dictated and got written by Shukanand Swami” [6]. The official website of the Laxmi-Narayan branch also states the “Lekh”, “describes in detail the functions of the Acharyas” and “has proved to be the basis upon which most judicial rulings are made” [7]. Therefore based on the secondary sources cited and the official websites of these organizations, I believe that the “Lekh” should not be included in the scriptures section as it is purely a legal document, while the Swamini Vato should be included, as it is a scripture accepted by all branches. Harshmellow717 (talk) 01:09, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- Hi @Robert McClenon, I came across this dispute as a third party a few weeks ago when the article was posted on the NPOV noticeboard by an unregistered user who later was proven as a sockpuppet of Applebutter221. I reviewed the references provided by all the parties, which state that the Lekh is a document outlining successorship for the Vadtal and Ahmedabad dioceses, two branches within the Swaminarayan Sampradaya. These two groups regard it as a sacred document. However, numerous sources cite that other groups within this tradition, such as the Yogi Divine Society, BAPS, and Anoopam Mission, acknowledge the validity of the Lekh administratively, but do not recognize it as a scripture. One way I am thinking of this is that including the Lekh in the scripture section would be like including the Book of Mormon as a scripture for all of the Christian religion, rather than being specific to a denomination. This Lekh document is already adequately described in the article under the ‘Major Branches’ section. It would not belong in the scriptural tradition section. Thanks, Skubydoo (talk) 02:56, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- Robert McClenon (talk · contribs), I appreciate your assistance in this matter. I was surprised to find this article escalated here because we had reached consensus on several edits already (see 'Resolved') 1. I entered the discussion later than the other editors, and it felt like we were working towards consensus for the other edits. The discussion was mostly civil and could have been better if the issues were framed around policy versus assigning sides. For instance, the introduction in the sandbox reads, “The goal here is to reach Consensus between the back and forth between the IP's and Baps” 1. The IP’s, or unregistered users, initiated this dispute which were subsequently furthered by Applebutter221’s bad faith accusations of conspiracy - all of whom were proven to be sockpuppets of Swamiblue who had been indefinitely banned in 2016 for similar behavior 1. For the question of Lekh, I think a better understanding of WP:RS is warranted, particularly when primary sources were being cited to support its inclusion as a scripture (a court case and a magazine published by one of the two dioceses). 12. Overall, I don’t see any dispute that has arisen on this article, that more civility and a deeper understanding of core policies can’t resolve. Moksha88 (talk) 10:29, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- Robert McClenon (talk · contribs), Thank you for your involvement in this discussion. In regards to the inclusion of the lekh, there is not much left to say that hasn't been said above. As far as I can tell looking at all the materials provided, the lekh does seem to be a legal document that is not widely accepted by all factions in the sampraday, and should not be included in a 'scriptures' section. ThaNDNman224 (talk) 20:13, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Third Statement by Moderator
Some of you have made long statements in support of your positions. However, it is first necessary to define what your position is, and we are only interested in what should be in the article. Please identify specific sections of the article that you want to change. I see a section on Scriptures, which has some subsections. If these are the only areas of dispute, please indicate what you want those sections to say. If there are other sections of the article, please identify the sections of the article that you want to change (or keep the same). If I need to give each of you a subpage, I will do that, but I think that you should be able to explain what changes you want to make to the article. Remember to comment only on content, not on contributors. Be concise.
If you want to provide additional information, you may tell me where this school fits into the general breakdown and tradition of Hindu philosophy and theology.
Once again, be concise. Comment only on what should be in the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:18, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Third Statements by Editors
Thank You Mr. Robert for providing direction and guidelines. I will try to be concise. Here is the addition being requested under the section of scriptures.
- The Change (Addition)
- === Desh Vibhag Lekh ===
- The Desh Vibhag Lekh was written under the directive of Swaminarayan in 1827 establishing the division of territory into two dioceses of Ahmedabad and Vartal[9]: 188 It was dictated by Sahajanand Swami himself and written by Sadhu Shukmuni in the Darbar of Khachar Dada Ebhal at Gadhada in the year 1826. It was translated into English by Geo. P Taylor in 1903. It has been accepted as such by the Bombay High Court as valid document.[9]
I feel some of the points above were slightly misleading. I will summarize my clarification with; this is a text that is acknowledged by almost all the branches but interpreted/valued differently among them. My addition simply lists it and links to its dedicated Wiki page like the other scriptures where the interpretation difference is already outlined. I suppose the entire counter argument is centered around the assumption that an "administrative document" cannot be a scripture but the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive to begin with. A scripture is defined by Merriam Webster as a sacred writing. This something fundamental to the mythos and origin story of the faith. It seems an unjust comparison to the Book of Mormon keeps being made. To address a major difference being neglected in that comparison, The Book of Mormons was authored centuries after the founding of Christianity while the Lekh was authored under the directive of the founder of the faith. Major difference.
This school within the Hindu philosophy at a very high level exists as such: Swaminarayan founded the faith in the early 1800s based of principles of Vaishnavism within the Hindu umbrella. In 1827 he directed the writings of the lekh to establish two branches, the Ahmadabad Branch(1827) and Vadtal Branch(1827). It also included guidelines/rules for members of the faith. Over the course of the faiths history, other branches were officially formed such as Baps(1907), Maninagar (1941), Gunatit Samaj(1986) and several other ones. They each weight the 'lekh' differently, some newer branches do disregard it. I am simply asking the above be added to the list/sections under scriptures to guide readers to its stand alone page like the rest of that section. The new counter-argument is it is not accepted by all branches. It is accepted by the branches founded during the creation of the faith by its founder. Also worth noting for the moderator, the scriptures section already lists texts that are not accepted by all branches. Thanks! Kbhatt22 (talk) 23:15, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
- Hello Robert McClenon (talk · contribs), I do not want any changes made to the article regarding the “Lekh”. As the article stands, the “Lekh” is mentioned in the lead and major branches section, where it is appropriate given its administrative function. The scriptures section encompasses major scriptures accepted by all branches. As I previously outlined (see diff), the “Lekh” is not accepted as a scripture by all branches but is accepted as a legal and administrative document. To make my position clear, The “Lekh” has been adequately accommodated elsewhere in the article and is not appropriate for the scriptures section. Harshmellow717 (talk) 01:34, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
- Robert McClenon (talk · contribs), I don’t think the current version of the article should be modified to include the Lekh as a scripture. The scholarly consensus outlined by Harshmellow717 does not characterize the Lekh document as a scripture accepted by all branches (1) nor does the reference cited in the proposed edit. As I mentioned previously, two other sources presented in the previous talk page discussion to support its inclusion were primary sources (12). Since this document pertains to successorship, it’s best addressed in the ‘Major branches’ section as found in the current article. Moksha88 (talk) 14:58, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
- Robert McClenon (talk · contribs), To be very concise, I also believe the Lekh should not be included in the 'Scriptures' subsection. The editors above have already echoed my position and concerns surrounding this. I am adding this to remain in the conversation. ThaNDNman224 (talk) 15:43, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Hi @Robert McClenon, my position is, in short, that the ‘Lekh’ document should not be included in the scripture section. As I stated earlier, including the Lekh in the scripture section would be like including the Book of Mormon as a scripture for all of the Christian religion, rather than being specific to a denomination. It is not a scripture, sacred document, or administrative document for the sect as a whole, but is only considered one by specific branches. I agree with Harshmellow's summary of Dave's book which outlines which branches of the Swaminarayan sect specifically reject the Lekh. Its inclusion in the ‘major branches’ section, as it is now, is sufficient for the branches that do accept the Lekh. Thank you, Skubydoo (talk) 16:59, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Fourth Statement by Moderator
It appears that multiple editors do not want the Lekh listed as a scripture. So my question is whether we are willing to have consensus not to include the Lekh, or whether we need to use an RFC.
Are there any other issues that require resolution? The filing editor originally listed several points in their sandbox, one of which had to do with the list of scriptures, and some of which have been resolved. Are there any other issues requiring resolution? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:56, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
Fourth Statements by Editors
Hi Robert McClenon (talk · contribs). Thank you for still being committed to moderating this. The inclusion of the Lekh as a scripture is an ideological difference within the branches. I guess at this juncture I would be curious based on what you have read, what you're thoughts are. I ultimately said, I would go with what you're better judgement was. All the reasoning against its inclusion directly aligned with one branch that didn't exist for the first century of the faith. It just feels wrong to push the pages narrative from the perspective of one branch which has happened on this page multiple times.
I had pointed out 4 revisions in my sandbox out of almost 16 proposed by someone else. I conceded to consensus on many of them (even if consensus was against me). The only outstanding issue was around the lekh diversification of images. 8/9 images originate from or promote the one branch that downplays the lekh. I had proposed sourcing images of idols, temples, or scriptures from the founder so they remain branch agnostic or at least give some representation to the other branches. I think I can work with the other users on this outstanding item before needing moderation. Thanks Kbhatt22 (talk) 11:10, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
Fifth Statement by Moderator
No, I don't plan to form an opinion on what my thoughts are. Disputes over what are Christian Scriptures are messy enough without venturing afield.
If there are any other issues that require dispute resolution, please identify them. Please advise whether there is a need for an RFC on any issue. Otherwise I will close the case. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:16, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
Fifth Statements by Editors
Understandable, would an RFC bring comments from someone who has no history editing this content or users who have a history of editing this content?
At this time there are no other disputes I wish to occupy you're time with. Thanks Kbhatt22 (talk) 23:38, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
- Thank You Robert McClenon (talk · contribs) for moderating this dispute. I agree this dispute should be closed. Harshmellow717 (talk) 01:35, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
- Robert McClenon (talk · contribs), I believe the consensus is to not include the Lekh in the 'Scriptures' section. Let's go ahead and conclude the case. I appreciate your assistance in this matter. Moksha88 (talk) 02:53, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
References
- ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ANeutral_point_of_view%2FNoticeboard&type=revision&diff=968090622&oldid=968084807
- ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Swaminarayan_Sampradaya&type=revision&diff=967889265&oldid=967833352
- ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Swaminarayan_Sampradaya&diff=next&oldid=968097784 <”I updated the claim to match the source to resolve it for both sides, at which point Baps removed it.”>
- ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Kbhatt22/sandbox&oldid=970117124
- ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Kbhatt22/sandbox&oldid=970117124
- ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ASwaminarayan_Sampradaya&type=revision&diff=968399742&oldid=968332116
- ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ASwaminarayan_Sampradaya&type=revision&diff=968054112&oldid=967989025
- ^ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ASwaminarayan_Sampradaya&type=revision&diff=969956590&oldid=969913712
- ^ a b Raymond Brady Williams (2001). An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism. Cambridge University Press. p. 36. ISBN 0-521-65422-X.
tejendraprasad.
Hi @Robert McClenon, Thanks for your help in this matter. I think this case should be closed. Bringing in to an rfc isn't needed, since there is productive discussion on the talk page. Take care, Skubydoo (talk) 03:36, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
- Hello Robert McClenon (talk · contribs) appreciate your help in moderating this discussion. I agree with everyone in that this should be closed. ThaNDNman224 (talk) 17:16, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
China–United States trade war
Filing editor opened this after receiving a block due to a currently open case regarding the behavior on this talk page on ANI. As you are not allowed to open a DRN while another case is pending on other boards, this DRN is closed. Nightenbelle (talk) 18:36, 15 August 2020 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Richard Stallman
(reason edited by Nightenbelle due to one not being listed by closing volunteer.) Reason closed- cannot have an open case on another noticeboard and also open a DRN case. Please finish one then open another if necessary. Clone commando sev (talk) 00:53, 18 August 2020 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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