Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

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the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process),
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compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action.

^ The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.
^ This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

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Modifications by administrators

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Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped.

Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied.

Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions.

Important notes:

For a request to succeed, either

(i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or

(ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA

is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.

While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
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Information for administrators processing requests

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Bohemian Baltimore

Bohemian Baltimore is topic banned from the self-identification or citizenship of living or recently deceased people, broadly construed. They are further warned against making accusations or casting aspersions without evidence. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:20, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Bohemian Baltimore

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Morbidthoughts (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 05:50, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Bohemian Baltimore (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log
Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Editing of Biographies of Living Persons

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

19:52, 25 October 2024 Adding self-identification category to Grant Fuhr without direct support from article and its cited sources. Reverted by me.
18:35, 25 October 2024 Replacing Taino descent category with self-identification category. Was reverted by User:Lewisguile noting same issue.
18:34, 25 October 2024 Replacing Taino descent category with self-identification category. Reverted by Lewisguile noting same issue.
16:43, 22 October 2024 Replacing Navajo People category with self-identification Indigenous Mexican category. Reverted by me because neither article text nor its cited sources verify self-identification.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 07:49, 30 May 2024 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I first learned about Bohemian Baltimore's disputed edits that introduce a self-identification qualifier to biographies of living people without explicit support from RSes on a May BLP Noticeboard discussion about Patricia Norby.[1] Consensus was against these edits. As far as I can tell, Bohemian Baltimore has made hundreds of this type of edits since 2023, mostly by use of categories.[2] The categories are very contentious themselves based on a prior CfD discussion.[3] I have reverted many of these edits and previously warned Bohemian Baltimore in August about this.[4][5][6]

I believe Bohemian Baltimore should be barred from BLPs involving Native/Indigenous topics.

Despite YuchiTown's attempt to rationalise the self-identification label, I'd like the reviewing administrators to consider what also happened when the categories were linked to the individual biographies as raised in the CfD discussion. It is not just the word self-identify that is added. When people click on the category page, they can see variations of the following summary about the listed people: "This category page lists notable citizens of the United States who claim to have _____ ancestry but who have no proof of this heritage. In some cases they make the claim despite having been proven to have no ______ heritage at all." with a later Pretendian link. BB created these categories and their corresponding summaries[7][8][9][10] and then linked people to these non-neutral contentions without direct unchained support from RSes. Think of the impact these unsourced gatekeeping assertions have on people. Morbidthoughts (talk) 00:16, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Barkeep49,@Seraphimblade, @ScottishFinnishRadish Similar to Hemiauchenia's example, I thought it was weird that BB brought up a lack of literacy and racism[11] in a discussion about whether a third-party report of a DNA test supported a self-identification of descent category. BB questioned another user's reading comprehension[12] in the Norby talk page discussion when that person objected about self-identification on OR grounds. Morbidthoughts (talk) 17:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[13]

Discussion concerning Bohemian Baltimore

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Bohemian Baltimore

I do not appreciate this transparent attempt to harass me and censor my contributions to Wikipedia. Each of these individuals was either adopted or self-identifies as Taíno. None of these people have tribal citizenship; the source of their Indigenous identity is very literally through their own self-identification rather than through any tribal citizenship. As for the ArbCom discussion, where is this "consensus"? Where is this stated and by whom? What binding precedent was set or rules established for editing? Please, enlighten me. What exactly am I missing here? It is very disappointing and alarming that this user is deploying strong-arm tactics to permanently suppress the contributions of Native and allied editors. This is not the first time this editor has defamed or harassed me, based on his own idiosyncratic and self-declared definition of self-identification. There are many ways to handle disputes. Trying to get me banned from editing is outrageous and controlling and it undermines Wikipedia's diversity. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 10:02, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Raladic Please stick to the topic. I regard dragging these long dead and irrelevant debates into this conversation as a smear. I made an attempt to improve visibility for gay, lesbian, transgender, and bisexual people; to address erasure and invisibility of LGBT people, as a proud member of the LGBT community. I will not apologize for being queer. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 09:38, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish What knowledge do you have of tribal citizenship? Is this a topic you have attempted to research and educate yourself on before declaring that I should be banned? Tribal citizenship is very much verifiable and defining. The fact that the Taino have no tribal citizenship is not "original research". It's simply a fact. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 17:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Valereee American Indian tribes under law are sovereign nations with citizens. There are neo-Taíno revivalist organizations that promote Taíno identity and who promote reviving a distinct Taíno culture, which was assimilated into the Spanish-speaking Puerto Rican culture centuries ago. However, these non-profit organizations are not tribes. Typically, they are registered as 501c3s. They have no citizens. They have no sovereignty. The basis of their identity is purely through their own self-identification, rather than any legal status. Whether or not a group should be recognized as a tribe is an opinion. Not that my opinion really matters, but I know of several groups of American Indian descendants who have no recognition as a tribe, but who I think should be recognized. The Taíno revivalists lack of any sovereign nation is a fact, not an opinion. A Puerto Rican who self-identifies as Taíno is simply a US citizen. Whereas, for example, an enrolled Cherokee Nation member is both a citizen of the US and a citizen of the Cherokee Nation. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Newyorkbrad In the United States, American Indian tribes are defined as "domestic dependent, sovereign nations" under law with government-to-government relationships with the US government. Members of tribes are citizens of sovereign nations. Being Native American is a matter of citizenship and sovereignty, not merely a question of race, color, ethnicity, or ancestry. There are no Taíno tribes in the United States. Due to genocide, disease, assimilation and other factors, the Taíno assimilated into the larger Puerto Rican population. The Taíno language is extinct. The Taíno as a culturally distinct people have not existed for centuries. In recent years, some Puerto Ricans have begun to self-identify as Taíno based on their DNA heritage. These neo-Taínos self-identify as Indigenous due to centuries old Indigenous ancestry. No Taíno group is recognized as a sovereign nation. That is to say, neo-Taíno identity is inherently a question of self-identification rather than citizenship in a sovereign nation. Puerto Ricans who self-identify as neo-Taíno are US citizens and they have no additional tribal citizenship. The term "self-identification", while wrongly perceived by some uninformed white editors as a pejorative term, is actually widely used by Indigenous peoples. The term is used by the Department of the Interior, the United Nations, the Organization of American States, and many other bodies. The fact that neo-Taíno revivalists have no recognition as sovereign nations is just that, a fact. The question of whether a neo-Taíno group should be recognized is a separate matter. That's an opinion. Their lack of sovereignty is not an opinion. It is a fact. Right now, historical Taíno people of Puerto Rico who lived during colonial and pre-colonial times are in the category Category:Taíno people from Puerto Rico. Whereas, neo-Taíno revivalists were listed under Category:Puerto Rican people who self-identify as being of Taíno descent. That category was emptied and nominated for deletion. The people who were in the category are now under Category:Puerto Rican people of Taíno descent. The historic Taíno people are clearly distinct from neo-Taíno revivalists who invoke DNA heritage, and for navigational purposes there should be separate categories for these separate groups of people. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 04:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Raladic I really despise having to re-hash ancient and irrelevant drama, but some of the categories I created were actually kept. So actually, it was a useful and productive conversation about the visibility of queer people within the ace community, and about the definition of bisexuality (and the "two or more genders" definition I used is actually widespread and normative, despite Wikipedia's fossilized conservatism on these matters). I do not like homophobia. I do not like being subject to homophobic attacks. These old conversations have been irrelevantly thrown in my face, on-Wiki and off-Wiki, by multiple people. Your intent doesn't really make a difference. To assume good faith, I am sure you and Mason think of yourselves as harmlessly correcting mistakes. Whereas, I view it as objectively homophobic as it creates a hostile environment for queer editors. I do not feel welcomed or respected as a queer person on Wikipedia. I feel defamed and excluded. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 05:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Theleekycauldron Unbelievable. Name one time there has been a "behavioral problem" in regards to Jewish topics. I'm a queer Jew and I have contributed greatly to queer, Jewish, and queer Jewish topics on Wikipedia. This discussion has clearly gotten out of hand. The proposal was to topic ban me from Indigenous self-identification. Now, I am being told I should basically be banned from almost every topic I focus on. This is just censorship, at this point. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Seraphimblade I discuss the atmosphere of racism and homophobia on Wikipedia, problems I consider structural rather than individual. This is something Wikipedia acknowledges is a problem, for example, in these articles: Racial bias on Wikipedia, Gender bias on Wikipedia. I do not say that a person is a racist or a homophobe in any of the cited examples. My concern here is whether this amounts to tone policing or not, and I worry that clamping down on editors for discussing problems of perceived or actual racial bias or any other kind of bias will create a chilling climate that discourages diverse voices from participating. Particularly when what is widely considered acceptable evidence or an acceptable argument often falls in the favor of the majority group. I think it is also important to remember that perceptions of who is "aggressive" and who is merely assertive or blunt is often colored by biases of various kinds; whether they be sexual, racial, ethnic, religious, or economic. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:30, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Theleekycauldron I would appreciate factual statements, rather than false statements. Name one time I called anyone an idiot on Wikipedia. Where have I stated that someone was acting in bad faith? I talk about Racial bias on Wikipedia, and indeed there's a whole article about the problem, because Wikipedia acknowledges that it is a problem. Discussing the problem of racism is not maligning people. And if we are supposed to be quiet and hush about the racial bias on Wikipedia, then that silences the ability of diverse voices to participate and it hold Wikipedia back. Saying that I should be topic banned from basically everything I edit because I'm apparently not nice enough or pleasing enough is addressing my personality, not the substance of what I write. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish As I mentioned and linked above, there's been a whisper campaign on Tumblr to "stop" me and other editors (including @User:Doug Weller, for some inexplicable reason). Pingnova and at least one other Wikipedia editor (prismatic-bell, Wiki username unknown) have participated in this discussion, that we know of. There could be others. The Tumblr user Moniquill (Monique "Blackgoose" Poirier of the Seaconke Wampanoag Tribe) and her followers have insinuated that because they disagree with my Indigenous-related editing, that I'm automatically suspicious on any Jewish or LGBTQ matter. My Jewish editing has never been contested. My LGBTQ editing of many, many years was questioned on one occasion based on a differing opinion on who is LGBTQ (the question was whether asexuals who identify as straight are queer, believe it or not), and some of the categories I created were actually kept in those discussions. So, the idea that I am some "controversial" person is a manufactured idea being promoted by individuals who have a vested interest in a particular Indigenous viewpoint, and vested interests in me being quiet. I think that's wrong and that I'm being unfairly maligned. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Vanamonde93 It's also a long-dead dispute that was decided upon and the decisions of which I respected, and it has not been an issue since. Furthermore, some of the categories I created were actually kept, so not all of the edits I made were contested let alone deleted. I'm concerned that my personality is under scrutiny here when we should be focusing on the subject of Indigenous self-identification. I'm also alarmed that some Wikipedia editors have spoken negatively about me on Tumblr, which makes me fear that canvassing in happening. This thread in particular on Tumblr attacks me and insinuates that I might be anti-Jewish or anti-LGBTQ (I'm a queer Jew), simply because they objected to my Native-related edits. So I find it suspicious that all of the issues in that Tumblr thread are being dredged up here, when the issue was narrowly about Indigenous self-identification. The Tumblr user prismatic-bell, who also mentions being a Wikipedia editor, wrote: "Would it be worth it to see if there’s overlap between these malicious editors, and if so, make that an additional angle of approach? I feel like the more groups we can prove are being harmed, the more likely Wikipedia will be to remedy the issue", as well as later writing "And what do we do to stop them, re: the rest?", suggesting they are advocating that something be done against me and other editors. The editor Doug Weller is also singled out for scrutiny. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:42, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Barkeep49 If "aspersions and accusations are important to note", then I would argue that the above mentioned off-wiki whisper campaign to "stop" me and other editors, involving at least two Wikipedia editors (one of whom is right here in this discussion) is also something to be noted. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Seraphimblade Notifying you of this whisper campaign as well. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to request that @User:Pingnova edit the comment about me to "they". I am not a "he". Thank you. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:57, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Yuchitown I think now that we see people expanding the question, and saying that I should be banned from all Indigenous topics and all Jewish topics and all LGBTQ topics, and perhaps even banned from all topics related to any "marginalized peoples", that this is no longer a question of policy. It's a question of personality. Effectively, a number of people are chiming in to advocate that I simply be banned from editing almost every topic I focus on. That's censorship targeting an individual. It's harmful to me, but beyond that, it harms Wikipedia and reduces the diversity of voices here. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish When I wrote, "I hope these are mistakes on your part", that is explicitly NOT claiming that the person is racist. And that person agreed that it was a mistake, so I was correct. Furthermore, I never accused the person above of being homophobic themselves. In fact, I explicitly stated that I did not think that person was acting in bad faith. I am surprised that my words are being characterized as overly harsh, when on both occasions I went out of my way to acknowledge that the other person was likely simply mistaken. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 02:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish I would like to reiterate that you and other admins are aware that there is a canvassing and harassment campaign against me and the issue was never addressed. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 03:13, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish I would also like to know why I would be banned from editing on Jewish-related topics. My Jewish-related editing has never been disputed, nor has anyone here given a reason any example of problematic editing around Jews/Judaism. Not examples, let alone a pattern. This is overkill. It's extreme and it makes zero sense. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 03:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@ScottishFinnishRadish Furthermore, what does "self-identification or citizenship of living or recently deceased people" even mean? That's so broad it could mean almost anything. Am I going to be slapped with a warning, for example, if I categorize someone as an "American writer", because that's a reference to citizenship? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 03:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Raladic

A similar issue around identities also occurred a few months ago in the LGBTQ space when @BB created a series of erroneous categories and tried to shift categories into sub-categories that would mis-categorize people with different LGBTQ identities. Refer to User talk:Bohemian Baltimore#Aromanticism and Asexuality are the A of LGBTQIA+ and Intersex is the I and is inherently an LGBTQIA+ identity and this one User talk:Bohemian Baltimore#Pansexuality is not the same as bisexuality by @Mason for context. And the resulting cleanup that had to be made afterwards per Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 April 7#Category:LGBT asexual people these wrong categorizations. So it does appear that the user may have a pattern of, while good-faith, wrong categorizations of BLPs, which are problematic, so a warning to be more careful of working on categorization of BLPs may be appropriate. Raladic (talk) 03:48, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No smear is intended, I merely pointed out that as I said above, that while I fully believe you made the changes in good faith, they were clerically incorrect as was pointed out in the subsequent discussions. I also fully appreciate you trying to increase visibility for LGBTQ people, as that is where I spend a lot of my time on Wikipedia as well as a queer person myself. Raladic (talk) 14:12, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am concerned that it appears that BB is doubling down with their latest series of replies today and have still not struck/retracted their accusation here, despite having been asked by @Vanamonde93 several days ago here. It looks like they are not able to see their own baseless accusations when all the other editors did point out an erroneous categorization on their part and by the looks of this here, they still disagree despite multiple editors having explained their misunderstanding. Raladic (talk) 02:56, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Valereee

I had similar interactions at Talk:Indigenous_cuisine_of_the_Americas#Content/context_removal? regarding removal of identification of individuals as native American in Wikivoice over the tribe not being recognized by federal/state governments, at that article and at Louis Trevino and Vincent Medina. BB wanted to insert 'self-identify as'. They did drop it after I pointed out the NYT was calling them Ohlone and another editor reverted them, but BB does seem to be pretty focussed on the concept of self-identification (vs. identifying in WV) of BLPs if they don't agree a group officially exists or how it's defined? Valereee (talk) 12:22, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

NYB, I'd like to hear that explanation w/re: identification of members of any tribe that isn't officially recognized by a government body. Valereee (talk) 15:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bohemian Baltimore, so you are saying that if a tribe isn't officially recognized by a government body, Wikipedia should be referring to folks as "self-identified", even if RS are referring to them as tribal members, because no one can actually be a member of a such a tribe? Valereee (talk) 17:23, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This category page lists notable citizens of the United States who claim to have Shoshone ancestry but who have no proof of this heritage. In some cases they make the claim despite having been proven to have no Shoshone heritage at all is pointy, RGW, and a BLP vio. I'm sympathetic to the fact there are many people out there making such false claims, but I feel like this is basically categorizing people as liars. Valereee (talk) 12:54, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Yuchitown

Bohemian Baltimore should not be banned from Native American topics. None of their edits to topics relating to Indian Country have been controversial or contested. Instead, MorbidThoughts has followed Bohemian Baltimore around and decided unilaterally that “self-identified” must be censored with certain individuals from Wikipedia. I was part of the Norby noticeboard discussion; the consensus was that New York Post was not an WP:RS and WP:CLAIM precludes the use of the word “claim” in BLPs. Native American identity is controversial and contested; it is a unique political identity in the United States.[14] In published literature about Native American identity, variations of “self-identified” are used freely (examples here). Self-identified does not mean “fraud”; it means exactly what the dictionary states: “To identify or describe oneself as belonging to a particular category or group of people; to assign a particular characteristic or categorization to oneself.”[15] A unique phenomenon has evolved in the US of tens of thousands of people believing and stating they have Native American ancestry without substantiating that belief (discussion and citations can be found at Cherokee descent). Making a statement of Native American descent is self-identification. I’ve yet to see anyone produce a published citation saying that the term “self-identification” is an unacceptable term in regard to statements of Native American descent. If MorbidThoughts would like to propose the censorship of this term as Wikipedia policy, they need to go through that process, as opposed to unilaterally deciding it is Wikipedia policy and attempting to get Bohemian Baltimore topic-banned based on their unsourced, personal feelings. Yuchitown (talk) 14:49, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For those suggesting a topic ban, I'd just like reiterate that Bohemian Baltimore's edits to topics related to Indian Country and to federally recognized tribes have not be remotely controversial and have been extremely helpful. The contested gray area of unrecognized organizations and individuals have been the topic areas where other editors have made pushbacks. It would be a loss to the encyclopedia to lose this editor's contributions to Indian Country topics. These two topic areas are not the same. Yuchitown (talk) 19:18, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Aquillion

My concern reading this, conductwise, is WP:FAIT - it is clear from eg. the CFD discussion (where Baltimore participated) that the categories Bohemian Baltimore created are highly contentious. Numerous other discussions and objections since have made that even more clear. Yet they seem to have taken the no-consensus outcome as a green light to go around making hundreds of replacements, effectively trying to ram through the template's usage via FAIT without ever going through the discussion necessary to do so. Obviously that discussion is now necessary, but since they've shown that they're not going to wait on it, my suggestion is that Bohemian Baltimore be barred from implying that any aspect of someone's identity is self-identified, or creating, using, applying, or reapplying any categories of that nature until / unless a clear affirmative consensus is reached to do so or under what circumstances to do so. I don't think that this is just a content dispute - that would be true if this was just on one or two articles; WP:BOLD protects a few individual edits. But making the sorts of systematic changes that Bohemian Baltimore has been doing after editors have objected is trying to force your opinions through by FAIT and is inappropriate. --Aquillion (talk) 15:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Clayoquot

Courtesy ping to HouseBlaster who closed the relevant CFD discussion as "no consensus, therefore keep". Some of the statements being made here could be read as challenging that closure. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Barkeep49 I agree that there's a difference between whether or not a category should exist and how particular editors use it. In practice though, since it's rare for RS to say that a given individual self-identifies as X, requiring RS to use a category is almost the same thing as deleting the category. I like your thinking that a community noticeboard discussion on how to use "self-identify" in BLPs could be fruitful. Many participants in the CfD discussion tried to discuss that issue but it probably wasn't the right venue. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:54, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A core issue seems to be whether "self-identifies as..." is contentious material. In the CfD and on this page I see arguments both ways - to some it seems obviously contentious, and others put forth academically-sourced arguments that it's not contentious at all. A community consensus on whether it is or is not contentious would be helpful. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 20:44, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that Bohemian Baltimore's wording in the category pages was a BLP violation. I fixed one just now and noticed that nobody else had tried to do it.[16] For the other non-deleted category pages named in this enforcement request, there has also been no effort made to edit the page to remove BLP problems.[17][18] (I will go fix them after I publish this comment). Re-editing a page is the first part of community-based dispute resolution and in some cases it has not been done, which suggests that very little community-based dispute resolution has been tried. Things seem to be headed in the direction of "If the community hasn't decided whether something is a BLP violation, file a complaint and the admins at AE will decide." Is that how Wikipedia is supposed to work? Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 19:34, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nil Einne

In response to Yuchitown, the BLPN discussion established the obvious. You cannot claim someone "self-identifies" as something unless supported by sources. Whether you want to call it pejorative, it doesn't matter much. BLP policy establishes that we shouldn't be adding unsourced content to articles point blank which includes saying someone self-identifies when it isn't what the sources say is. If sources said something like "according to subject A, they are Navajo" or "subject A has informed us they are of Navajo descent" then perhaps we could count that as self identification. But when the source says [19] "Only when he was contacted by his birth mother decades later (a Fed-Ex package with photos and a letter) did he learn that his biological father was a Mexican Navajo Indian."; this isn't the same thing. We assume that sources have done what they feel is necessary to verify claims they present, and this source has said "his biological father was a Mexican Navajo Indian" not "his biological father self-identified" or "the person he believes is his biological father". Therefore we take this claim at face value as being true and don't add our own interpretations. From what I've seen, most of the time, there's no reliable secondary sources on whether the subject has tribal citizenship. So commentary on the lack of tribal citizenship isoften WP:OR based on primary sources (i.e. looking into records or worse asking the tribe themselves) or based on non RS (e.g. blogs). That said if RSS do mention lack of tribal citizenship we should present this in our article, and can consider how to handle this in categories. But it's unlikely via a self-identification one. Nil Einne (talk) 07:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Another example of Bohemian Baltimore's problematic editing [20]. Removing the indigenous Mexican category is fine, was nothing in our article supporting it. But they not only added a self-identification category but added text to present the claim. The source they used [21] only says "Her maternal grandmother was of Spanish and Shoshone Native American ancestry". Nothing suggests this self-identification. The Walk of Fame probably doesn't have a reputation for fact checking so we IMO shouldn't present the claim of Shoshone ancestry as true. But we have no idea whether this was from Swank, a publicist or whatever else nor what evidence there is. With no source demonstrating this is a wider concern there's no reason to mention this at all. [22] Nil Einne (talk) 08:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Hemiauchenia

Although this is not related to the conduct at hand, I was concerned by the baseless personal attacks Bohemian Baltimore made in Talk:African-American_Jews#Merge_Proposal a few weeks ago, where he without foundation accuses editors in the discussion of displaying overt anti-Black racism [23] for having the audacity of... proposing that an article BB wrote be merged? Making baseless racism accusations is really unacceptable, especially for an editor with as many edits and as long a tenure as BB. Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Pingnova

@Barkeep49 Here are a couple instances when Bohemian Baltimore has been incivil or disruptive when discussing this topic outside mainspace: Talk:Guainía_Taíno_Tribe and Talk:History_of_Georgetown_University#White_supremacy.
Pushing OR: Talk:Bessie_Coleman#Not_Native and Talk:Bessie_Coleman#Native_American_claim. This is only one page, but is a theme with them.
They also pushe the WP:FRINGE theory that Native Americans are not a race or ethnic category: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_October_15#Category:American_people_who_self-identify_as_being_of_Native_American_descent.
Bohemian Baltimore seems preoccupied with editing unsupported claims of race fraud into BLPs (and other pages) and has made such edits to hundreds of pages. Their OR frequently includes looking up 100 year old family census records, as with the Bessie Coleman article. These edits are not based on RS. Their editing is extremely disruptive to the topic area. Tracking down and fixing all of them will take some time. The Native American topic area has only a few regular editors. Additionally I think we should take extra caution in this case because they are targeting marginalized people, especially living marginalized people, and are pushing race WP:FRINGE. Pingnova (talk) 03:44, 9 November 2024 (UTC) Moved comment to own section. Please comment only in this section. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 05:45, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Andrevan

I'd like to offer Talk:African-American_Jews#Merge_Proposal from last month, Bohemian Baltimore accused other editors of anti-Black racism[24] because they proposed merging Black Jews in New York City and had extensively edited that article to remove the Black Hebrew Israelite content, based on a discussion at Fringe noticeboard. Whether or not you disagree with the idea that Black Hebrew Israelites and Black Jews shouldn't be mixed together or whether or not you agree that there is not enough material to have a separate article about Black Jews in New York City versus being part of African-American Jews, I don't think it's really appropriate to accuse editors of racism simply for those editorial content decisions.Andre🚐 03:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I see this was already mentioned, I missed it. Andre🚐 03:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by theleekycauldron

Here's a list of things Bohemian Baltimore has said, all of which are in violation of WP:AGF, WP:NPA, and/or WP:ASPERSION:

They questioned CaroleHenson on whether or not they had a "reading comprehension issue".
They said everyone in this thread was "erasing Black Jews" because they wanted to merge Black Jews in New York City to African-American Jews. (Which, as Warrenmck tried to explain to them, doesn't erase Black Jews, but they didn't hear that.)
They also said in the same thread that Warrenmck was "turn[ing] this into an anti-Black witch hunt" for trying to remove Black Hebrew Israelites content from Black Jews in New York City.
They said in an edit summary that Warrenmck's removal of content about a Black Orthodox Jew in the midst of the same removal was "smearing" before they had a chance to say, as they did an hour later, that it was a mistake. Never apologized or retracted it. (I believe it was them who said that claiming that editors are disingenuous in intention is tantamount to calling them liars.)
They referred to this AE filing as a transparent attempt to harass me and censor my contributions to Wikipedia, which I see no evidence of.
They said the thread filer is deploying strong-arm tactics to permanently suppress the contributions of Native and allied editors, which they did not provide evidence for.
They implied in this thread that Raladic wants them to apologize for being queer, when they haven't come close to saying any such thing.
They insisted that merging Category:LGBT asexual women to Category:Asexual women was erasure of asexual and intersex people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender and not a recognition that asexual women are broadly accepted as part of the LGBT community.

theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Bohemian Baltimore

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I'm interested in hearing Bohemian Baltimore's response while I go through the background. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Each of these individuals was either adopted or self-identifies as Taíno. None of these people have tribal citizenship; the source of their Indigenous identity is very literally through their own self-identification rather than through any tribal citizenship. None of this is covered in the articles, and appears to be WP:OR. WP:CATDEFINE says A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently refer to in describing the topic, such as the nationality of a person or the geographic location of a place. These edits clearly fail that bar for categorization. I'm thinking a topic ban from the identification and citizenship of indigenous people. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The diffs above are not about tribal citizenship, but about descent. What you say above, some Puerto Ricans have begun to self-identify as Taíno based on their DNA heritage, is about being of Taino descent. Everything else you've said about this falls firmly under WP:OR as it applies to specific living people. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:32, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Clayoquot, if there is this much disagreement about it then it is fairly plainly contentious. WP:BLP says Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Users who persistently or egregiously violate this policy may be blocked from editing. Even if the self-identified label is neutral or even positive there is clearly contention about its use. In this situation no sources have been provided using the label, so it is unsourced, and arguments made here about its inclusion amount to WP:OR. Content policies, with OR specifically called out, must be strictly followed when dealing with BLPs.

I agree that there should be a broad community discussion about this, but as it stands applying the label without consensus and sourcing is a violation of our BLP policy. These violations have been persistent, and I would say after the amount of discussion on the topic clearly demonstrating a lack of consensus for inclusion, egregious. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Bohemian Baltimore: Before I evaluate this, can you please clarify what you mean by "tribal citizenship" as a member of the Taino people? I am certainly not an expert, but my understanding is that the Taino people are not a legally organized tribe, and that the ongoing efforts to create a registry of Taino citizens are unofficial and are themselves based on self-identification and voluntary registration. What criteria are you using to separate people whom you feel belong in Category:Puerto Rican people who self-identify as being of Taíno descent as opposed to Category:Puerto Rican people of Taíno descent? Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:14, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The idea, as Valereee writes, that we can only identify a characteristic of a person if it is government recognized regardless of what RS says (meaning, for instance, we could possibly have to label someone born in Ontario as "self-identified male/female/non-binary" because their birth certificates do not require any gender/sex field[25]) strikes me as an extreme position. But I feel we're in content decision territory here rather than BLP contentious topic violations and so this would either need to go to a community noticeboard - where there are more options for an uneasy mixing of the two - or have a content decision on this that Bohemian Baltimore is then violating in order for us to sanction them here. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Although there is not firmly established consensus, with BLP that defaults to exclude contentious labeling. Bohemian Baltimore is obviously aware of the contentious nature of these edits, and continues to make them without consensus or sourcing. To me that falls far enough on the wrong side of WP:BLP that a narrow topic ban on the identification of indigenous peoples, even if limited to such a time as consensus supports their position, is called for. Trying to force through contentious labels on BLPs without consensus is disruptive. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:37, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a really good point and you've convinced me that we can address the issue here. Per the other feedback, I'm definitely not ready to topic ban them from indigenous people and I wonder if even your narrow topic ban could impact positive work mentioned by some others above. So what if instead we issue a consensus required to change the identification of indigenous people restriction? Obviously we normally apply CR to articles not editors, but in this case I think them needing to get consensus before changing would address the issue at hand while still allowing them to do the other work. And per your comment - should there be a topic wide consensus formed (through an appropriate RfC held at a place like a Village pump) that these kinds of changes are appropriate the restriction effectively goes away. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Clayoquot there's a difference between whether or not a category should exist and how particular editors use it. The fact that there is not even consensus about its existence - I read that CfD at the time - does actually say to me that a higher degree of care is needed by those who do use it. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:22, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bohemian Baltimore needs to recognize that whatever their beliefs may be about the logical categorization of people of Taino heritage vs other indigenous groups, Wikipedia cannot apply labels unsupported by reliable sources. Absent such recognition I think the TBAN SFR proposes is necessary. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bohemian Baltimore If an editor were engaging in homophobic behavior toward you, they would be sanctioned for it. For that very reason, it's a serious accusation that needs to be backed up by evidence. I'm not seeing anything in this discussion that constitutes a homophobic attack. Please provide evidence, or retract that claim. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:35, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it should be clear just from reading the discussions over this matter that this is clearly a contentious thing to say about someone. So, we don't need to get into great intricacy of what a rather obscure part of the MOS says, or anything like that. WP:BLP is very clear on the point: Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Saying "self-identifies" is in this case clearly contentious. If the sources don't unambiguously support that, it must be removed immediately and may not be restored without clear and unambiguous consensus, and anyone who does unilaterally restore it is engaged in sanctionable misconduct. I would also reiterate that there is a difference between the question of a category's existence, and its appropriateness of use. Category:Drug dealers exists, and should, but its use on a given article could still most certainly be a violation of BLP unless reliable sources unequivocally back up that it belongs there. Similarly, it seems the issue is not the existence of these categories, but their use in a lot of particular instances where the sources do not seem to back that. As to the instant case, I have no objection to a topic ban for Bohemian Baltimore since they obviously have no plans to stop doing this without such a sanction, but I'm afraid that in itself, that will not solve the BLP issues here, which seem by now to have become quite widespread. I think we might need to consider wider-scale action to address that, but I'm not yet sure what that looks like. I see above that a "consensus required" provision was mentioned, and there is in principle no reason that a "consensus required" sanction could not be added to a category, so perhaps a first step could be a "consensus required" restriction to add (or re-add) these categories to any article? If we did that, topic bans on individuals may not be necessary, provided that they will in fact abide by that restriction. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 13:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I could support such a sanction, but surely the first step is simply enforcing WP:NOR; categories may not be used without supporting sources that are in the article, and doing so is already grounds for sanction. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure we can make that type of sanction at AE with a rough consensus, but I'm with Vanamonde that we should start by enforcing policy around BLPs normally. I would hope that if editors see that we're taking action on this they'll be less likely to engage in the same type of editing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, let's give that a try first then. Hopefully it will suffice, if not we can always look at it again later. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:28, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What is the "this" (that) which e're giving a first try? Barkeep49 (talk) 20:30, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A topic ban from the identification and citizenship of indigenous people is what I proposed above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:32, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do we have evidence of disruption with discussion? Because if not I'd still prefer we allow them that. Barkeep49 (talk) 22:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we've been given evidence of that. I'm fine with a article space topic ban, unless evidence of disruption in discussions is provided. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:53, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The link to the discussion provided by Hemiauchenia does show poor behavior, and there was a second inappropriate comment. This does (somewhat) fall under the BLP CTOP, but is different than the issue we're discussing here. Combined with the aspersions above of homophobic attacks, I think along with the topic ban we should issue a warning about aspersions and accusations. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Barkeep49, would you see the above as evidence of disruption with discussion? I know I certainly do, so I would be more in favor of an overall topic ban, discussion included, than an article-only one. Throwing around baseless accusations like that is quite disruptive to a discussion, and between here and the above article merge discussion, it seems to indicate that's a pattern of behavior, not a one-time mistake. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 16:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. That is evidence of disruption during discussions for me. It also is outside of the scope of the proposed topic ban. My bigger thinking is that I think Bohemian Baltimore is doing work the encyclopedia benefits from and so if there are ways we can have them focus on that work I'd like to try it. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:39, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think a topic-ban is needed at this time, unless there is evidence of additional problems after this discussion. I perceive the challenged edits as based on a good-faith understanding of the underlying issue, and as being quite defensible as within policy (since any living person's identification as of Taino descent may have a subjective component). Of course there are other arguments against changing the category (because the "self-identified" wording has an unjustified accusatory overtone), and consensus seems to be against doing so, but is there evidence that BB is now disregarding that consensus? If not, a reminder to be circumspect and to maintain civility on these sensitive and difficult topics hopefully should, in my view, be sufficient at this time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:31, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am surprised you find his answer to your Taino question sufficient @Newyorkbrad as that answer helped push me towards sanction. Ialso find the evidence presented by Nil Einne, Pingnova, and Valeree of problems sufficient for a topic ban. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:25, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Barkeep49: The consensus here seems to favor your view. Newyorkbrad (talk) 09:46, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bohemian Baltimore's behavior is incredibly aggressive and disruptive. Reading through the diffs in this thread and the thread itself, I can't imagine how people are supposed to collaborate with them when they malign their detractors as idiots, bigots, and bad-faith actors without anything approaching evidence. (Look at Hemiauchenia's thread, the filer diffs, Raladic's thread, and literally this page.) I think the best solution here would be a topic ban from self-identification with marginalized groups, broadly construed, but since that's not a CTOP, i support topic ban per ScottishFinnishRadish. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 18:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the self-identification falls under BLP which is a CT and thus something we could do. Barkeep49 (talk) 18:59, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
a BLP self-identification with marginalized groups TBAN works for me :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

oh, Self-trout, I assumed SFR was proposing a topic ban from indigenous groups (which, as it turns out, isn't a CTOP either!), but they've actually proposed one around identification of BLPs with indigenous groups. I would extend it beyond indigenous groups, since they have the same behavioral problems in the Jewish and LGBTQ topic areas, but yes, support that suggestion too. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:12, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Bohemian Baltimore: I never said you used the word "idiot", just like I never said you used the words "bad-faith actor". I am going to list what you did say in a separate statement above, because the list is frankly too long to put here. Would recommend that other admins read it.

But, no, you're not just "discussing the problem of racism", and no one is saying that you should be "quiet and hush about the racial bias on Wikipedia", and I'm not pearl-clutching ("feigning an overreaction with a typically bad-faith invocation of WP:CIVIL"). You have a pattern of accusing people of intentionally suppressing you and/or marginalized groups simply because they hold views that aren't yours, and that's not acceptable behavior. The reason I think your topic ban shouldn't be limited to Indigenous people is that your accusations and aspersions aren't, either. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Though it borders on blasphemy to disagree with Newyorkbrad about arbitration matters, I do disagree. Very basically BB is not showing a willingness to stick to what sources say. That's a problem anywhere, and particularly a problem in this fraught topic. I still support a TBAN with the scope suggested above. I recognize that there have been problems with categories on biographies of queer folk, but I'm leery of a TBAN there simply because it seems to me a recipe for wikilawyering, given that the dispute they were involved in was with respect to the boundaries of "LGBT". Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Vanamonde93: Please don't worry about disagreeing with me. I probably cast more solo dissenting votes while I was on the Committee than everyone else put together, so why should it stop now? Obviously there is a consensus here that agrees with you. Newyorkbrad (talk) 09:46, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We just need a bit of clarification of where support lies, and we can wrap this up. We have on the table currently:
1. A topic ban on the identification and citizenship of indigenous people, broadly construed
2. A topic ban on the identification and citizenship of indigenous people, mainspace only, broadly construed
3. A topic ban on self-identification of marginalized groups, broadly construed
4. A warning for casting aspersions and accusations
I think marginalized groups is too blurry to make an effective topic ban. I believe there has been enough demonstration of issues with their discussions to go for the full topic ban on identification and citizenship of indigenous people without the allowance for talk discussion, but I'm not so opposed to allowing discussion that I would hold things up over it, although it looks like the rough consensus here covers talk pages as well. At the risk of adding another thing to consider this late into the process there's a topic ban on the self-identification or citizenship of living or recently deceased people (we'll call this 5), which covers marginalized groups without any blurry edges. If we think there is enough concern to be talking about specific tbans covering marginalized groups, LGBT people, and Jewish people then I think self-identification and citizenship of BLPs is tight enough to allow their editing to continue, but broad enough to stop disruption. Call me in support of 1, 4, and 5. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:24, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I support the bolded topic ban proposal (which I see as inclusive of discussion). Barkeep49 (talk) 16:57, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would support 1 and 5, and 4 in addition to but not instead of one of those. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For me we're going beyond the warning with the topic ban we're choosing to enact. But yes the aspersions and accusations are important to note. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:23, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support 4 and 5 simultaneously, oppose 1 and 2 as too narrow (although support 1 if 2, 3, and 5 don't gain consensus). theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 10:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Barkeep49, are you opposed to the warning, or just ambivalent? Right now I would say we're on the edge of a consensus about the warning, with a solid consensus for the topic ban on the self-identification of living or recently deceased people. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What is the warning doing here that the topic ban is not? We're not warning them for the other misbehavior they've displayed here - we're topic banning them. Barkeep49 (talk) 16:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do not like homophobia. I do not like being subject to homophobic attacks. These old conversations have been irrelevantly thrown in my face, on-Wiki and off-Wiki, by multiple people. is an example from this AE report. This and this are tangentially related. I see the topic ban as addressing the BLPvio, and the warning relating to communication style in general. I support the warning, but I also see that the reason for the warning is why you supported the broader topic ban that covers Talk: as well. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For me, 1 or 5 (I'm fine with either) addresses the issue of trying to force what has proven to be highly contentious material into BLPs, so that's the misconduct leading to a topic ban (and TBs normally also cover talk page participation, so we're not taking any highly unusual step including that). 4 addresses the issue that, in addition to that, Bohemian Baltimore seems to have gotten into a habit of casting aspersions (and some pretty serious ones; most people would certainly not like to be called racist, homophobic, or the like) in discussions, and will need to drop that habit, not just in this topic area but in any discussions they may participate in going forward. If, going forward, they are going to bring such an accusation against any editor, they will need rock-solid evidence for it, not just to throw it out there. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 21:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bohemian Baltimore, I have just had to move several comments from the admin discussion section to yours. Please comment only in your own section going forward. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 02:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't looked at BB's wider edits, but it seems to me that the narrow issue of categories could be satisfactorily resolved with an RfC. It could just be an RfC about categories related to indigenous peoples of North America. Then BB and everyone else will be required to conform to it. I'm dubious of Theleekycauldron's suggestion about a wider RfC as there would be more argument about the scope than about the result. Zero^talk 03:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Bohemian Baltimore: You've alluded to an off-wiki canvassing campaign against you taking place on Tumblr in your comments above. I see that you have provided some links, though I am aware that it can be a bit hard to fully share all of that information on Wikipedia. If there is relevant information you cannot share on-wiki, I do hope that you collect evidence of the off-wiki coordination and send it to the Arbitration Committee, which is competent to review that sort of stuff and to take actions based on off-wiki evidence. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 03:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm seeing a rough consensus for a topic ban on the self-identification or citizenship of living or recently deceased people and a warning for casting aspersions and making accusations. Barring any administrator objection I'll close with that result soon. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Request for 1RR at Fascism

1RR removed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:49, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This article had 1RR imposed indefinitely in 2009, by KrakatoaKatie, as an individual admin action. Judging based on comments so far, there's uncertainty about whether the restriction is enforceable. The options are to leave the restriction in limbo, remove the restriction, or have an admin adopt the restriction explicitly under CT, potentially AmPol. Are any admins willing to do so? There has been recent, AmPol-adjacent disruption of the article. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think there's a serious issue with an article restriction stuck in limbo like this. Some admins and editors think it's in place and enforceable, and others think it's misplace and unenforceable. We should move in one direction or the other. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is a bit of a pickle, since the content being edit warred over isn't really AP2, persay, so placing 1RR as a CTOP action is a bit squirrely. I don't think anyone would object to using AmPol in this way, but if someone did they would have a point that it is a borderline use of CTOP sanctions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To make the connection a bit more explicit:

The main person recently edit warring to remove "far-right" as a descriptor of fascism is Johnny Spasm. I'll drop a formal notice at their talk page, but to be clear, I'm not advocating for enforcement action against him. Diffs of removal: 1, 2, 3, 4.
JS contextualized this repeated removal as an American-politics-related action in comments at the talk page:
1. dismissing the view of another editor and making assertions about their politics because they "live in Seattle, Washington" (diff)
2. identifying as an "American with far right beliefs" and arguing that "it is the far left in America that displays more fascist values than the far right", calling Biden out specifically (diff)
3. Criticizes the descriptor's inclusion while "both candidates in the US Presidential election are throwing around the word fascism" ([26])

If that's not enough of a connection, it's unlikely that enforcement of the 1RR could be reasonably connected to any other CT, and the restriction should be removed. Admins here, with experience judging which articles are covered by which CTs, are best placed to make the call to either adopt the restriction or remove it. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Before assuming this as a CTOP action, has there been much edit warring other than the recent edit warring that resulted in a block? For an indefinite 1RR there should be a substantial history of edit warring. That 1RR looked like it was a response to an edit war almost 15 years ago, so absent more disruption I'd say let it lapse. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's pretty actively edited, with multiple reversions in the past week. I have no objection to allowing it to lapse, though, replacing it if needed. KKatie hasn't edited in a week, maybe suspense for a few days as not urgent? Valereee (talk) 16:43, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There has not been any other recent major edit warring. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:13, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There was a minor edit war over the same left v. right issue on 10 November. Three editors involved, and one reverted twice. That editor has a brief enough edit history that it's easily gleaned that they are American or have a predominant interest in American topics. Only edit to a political bio is an American political bio.

Again, I wouldn't object to someone determining that this is not enough disruption and removing the restriction. Either side of this knife's edge would be good. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we should have a decision one way or another, but unless it's pressing I'm willing to wait a bit longer for KrakatoaKatie to weigh in. At this point I'm coming down on the side of removing 1RR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gosh, I missed this discussion somehow. Sorry, everybody. :-( If there's no need, by all means let's lift it. I remember placing this, which is a minor miracle considering I don't remember to rinse the conditioner from my hair sometimes, and it was a barn burner of an edit war back then. I'm all for lifting stuff that's no longer necessary. Katie^talk 14:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging ScottishFinnishRadish and Valereee, who both mentioned wanting to hear from KK. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:56, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like with p-blocks available, we probably can pull the 1RR off and see what happens. It's easy enough to put it back if it turns out it was helping. Valereee (talk) 15:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with lifting it. Is it in an edit notice, or logged anywhere? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's at Template:Editnotices/Page/Fascism. No log that I could find. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:07, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removed it with a reference to this discussion. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:11, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:18, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like lifting the restriction is agreed but I checked a couple of recent edits that asserted fascism is a far-left ideology (one editor went on to make the same claim regarding Nazism), and it is crystal-clear that it is an AP issue. I know we're supposed to be nice but edits like that warrant a NOTHERE or CIR indef, IMHO. While we have to welcome new editors, we also have a duty to support established editors who get worn down by the grinding river of ignorance. Johnuniq (talk) 01:11, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Southasianhistorian8

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Southasianhistorian8

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: GhostOfDanGurney (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Southasianhistorian8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:ARBIPA

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

21:37, November 12 Ignores WP:ONUS, edit warring in order to restore POV-pushing/WP:COATRACK content after that content had been removed by Nyttend.
02:11, November 14 Repeats the same WP:COATRACK behaviour at another article, just over 24hrs after Nyttend (a longstanding administrator) warned them about WP:COATRACK on their talk page.
08:49 November 14 Personal attack towards me on their userpage in response to sharing my concern about diff2 and agreeing with Nyttend, claims I'm "piling on my t/p over a topic that does not concern you as a form of petty bullying/harassment and revenge." (bolding mine; Nyttend was the only other user with a message on their talk page)
10:05 November 14 Leaves a retaliatory message on my talk page, spurned by my reverting of their edit in diff2.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

20:47, 2022 May 30 Indeff'd for abusing multiple accounts in the area of conflict as per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Suthasianhistorian8/Archive. Unblocked in December 2022 following a standard offer.
19:06, 2021 November 11 48hrs for edit warring in the area of conflict.

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 16:31, 2021 November 27 (see the system log linked to above).

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

SAH continues to push their anti-Sikh POV into articles. Diff1 shows them adding repetitive content which was already covered in the article, not to mention that it has its own article. Repeating in such detail can only be interpreted as an attempt to draw a equivalency between Khalistan movement and the Canada-India row that is not supported by sources.

Diff2 shows them doing them same at Hardeep Singh Nijjar, using that article as a COATRACK to add content about a tangentially relevant person, content which belong in an article about that person, and attempting to further their POV that Nijjar was a "militant".

Diffs 3 and 4 showcase an unwillingness to self-reflect when conduct concerns are brought up, getting defensive with personal attacks, retaliatory warnings, and digging up of past dirt (which they already mentioned in the last AE thread about them). At no point do they acknowledge WP:COATRACK either in response to Nyttend or myself.

Contribution history shows they nearly-exclusively edit about Sikh topics, suppressing positive information and restoring negative information. Talk page history shows numerous NPOV warnings. At this point, we either have a LISTENing issue or a WP:NOTHERE issue. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 17:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@103.251.217.66: I disagree with your evaluation of this as only a content dispute. I am reporting conduct; specifically violations of WP:EW (after the user made an agreement to never edit war[27] as part of their SOCK unblock request), WP:NPOV, and WP:NPA. I am aware that AE does not and should never rule on content. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 01:14, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Has SAH gotten a waiver of the word limit that I'm not aware of? They are at 1552 by my count. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 02:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ivanvector: While BLPCRIME is a reason why I reverted diff 2, it was not the only reason, with the other reason being that I felt SAH was pushing a POV using WP:COATRACK edits, something they had been warned about 24 hours previously for the edit in diff 1. My issue with the edit to Hardeep Singh Nijjar re: Arsh Dalla is beyond the BLPCRIME issue. It goes into the aspect of using another person's arrest to further a POV that Nijjar was a militant extremist.

The fact that SAH filed a report about Simonm223 to AN today[28] for simply trying to engage with SAH at SAH's talk page[29], then WP:BADGERed voorts at voort's talk page after voorts closed the thread[30] shows that SAH's conduct is the primary issue, not the content of any article. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 23:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ScottishFinnishRadish: it is at DRN [31] on referral by Voorts after SAH made a thread reporting Simonm223 at ANI [32], was warned for forum shopping, then badgered voorts at their talk page[33] The DRN has new posts tonight that I still need to catch up on. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 02:51, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...Okay, seriously, this is getting out of hand now. SAH's response to being asked to state concisely what they want to change that another editor wants to leave the same at DRN is to post a wall of text outlining their entire rationale to insert what they call "a brief few sentences or paragraphs" (huh?). Is this not WP:BLUDGEONING of a discussion?[34] ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 02:58, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[35]

Discussion concerning Southasianhistorian8

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Southasianhistorian8

(Note, below is SAH's original statement, the one people have commented on. The altered statement, where he removed/changed the things others had criticised, so that their criticism no longer made sense, can be found here. See my comment down in the admin section (in a moment from now) for why I've put their original statement back. Bishonen | tålk 09:11, 21 November 2024 (UTC).)[reply]

Talk about desperation. Any outsider can take a look at my handling on Khalistan movement and see that I handled myself very responsibly as opposed to GhostofDanGurney who keeps lobbing personal attacks at editors he dislikes. I only made one revert, and when Nyttend posted on my t/p, I told him I would not revert further, and initiated a discussion on the t/p. The content I added was literally a direct result of the killing of Hardeep Singh Nijjar, a Khalistan activist, and the RCMP's allegations of India's operations against Khalistan activists, so clearly the event is relevant to the page at least to some degree and I'm extremely confident that editors at 3O or DRN will agree. The content there wasn't even authored by me, I copied it (with attribution) from the Canada-India diplomatic row. If I was so biased, wouldn't I be trying to suppress this information? I figured that precluding such a consequential event would be irresponsible and make it appear as though the page was skewed towards a pro-India narrative. What more do you want from me?

Now, in line with GhostofDanGurney hastily making edits to get one over me such as here-where he engaged in interpretation of a primary source to publicy discredit a figure, as confirmed by ScottishFinnishRadish on A/E, here where he falsely accused me of plagiarizing his work Now he falsely called Arsh Dalla a "low profile" individual thus wrongly invoking BLPCRIME; Ghost could have spent at least 10 minutes researching this guy or at least initiated a respectful discussion on the t/p instead of piling attacks on my t/p. Instead he made a rude condescending post on my t/p, threatening to escalate matters and stating that I need to confirm whether I understand Wikipedia's policies to him, as if he's my boss or something. He has yet to engage in the t/p of the article where I laid out sources and arguments, instead coming here to again win a content dispute illegitimately.

Now just days after his failed A/E request where he was also criticized for making personal attacks and making nonconstructive edits, he's again wasting everyone's tie over this drama. This ridiculous BATTLEGROUND behaviour should not be given carte-blanche here.Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 19:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GhostofDanGurney- Is one revert on the Khalistan movement page, in which I believed the removal from Nyttend to be a simple misunderstanding and subsequently went on the t/p, and zero reverts on the Hardeep Singh Nijjar page - for a grand total of one revert considered "edit warring". If so, you've edit warred hundreds of times as well Ghost. You've also told people to "fuck themselves", called them "thots" and "hypocrites" and more; I've never come close to saying something like that. Again, I strongly urge admins to issue a block for these juvenile insults. Literally every disagreement on his t/p is met with a nasty response-[36], [37]. This ill-researched statement is like the last time when you falsely accused me of plagiarizing your work.

Regarding, allegations of BLPCRIME or Dalla's low-profile/non public figure status-I've laid out a comprehensive case here-which shows extensive media coverage surrounding Dalla + sources in which Dalla clearly gave interviews to the media thus making him a high profile person as per Wiki policy. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 03:02, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Black Kite, I saw a thread on the article's t/p in which two editors expressed a desire to move the paragraph about the diplomatic row in the lead of the article. I removed the paragraph from the lead, and intended to move it and expand on it in the body of the article, but was unexpectedly called away before I could. By the time I returned, you had reverted me. In hindsight, I should have made my 2nd intended edit immediately afterwards and linked the t/p discussion, so my apologies for that. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 03:48, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(End of original statement)

@Bishonen:, those year old edit summaries are part of a continuing pattern of Ghost's hostility to anyone who disagrees with him, even as recent. The underlying behaviour hasn't changed at all, he was making inflammatory edit summaries, which SFR acknowledged in the first A/E not too long ago-[38] + [39], then right after that he took a quote from a primary source and framed it in a very inflammatory way (also acknowledged by SFR) to clearly cause irritation. His t/p reveals numerous attacks against people who disagree with him as recent as 2023-ironically it was him who did not have consensus and [40]. He also admitted to messaging Kautilya3 on Twitter after a heated content dispute, which is pretty absurd.

As for this edit-[41], I explicitly stated that it shouldn't have been in the lead-Please gain WP:CONSENSUS to add this to the article's lead, in accordance with the t/p discussion. I already apologized for the poor communication on my part here (I should have stated my intention to move and expand the para and linked the t/p discussion) and admit that I should take care to not add WIP edits, but I feel like AGF should apply here, especially when I already apologized and it involves my private life. I'm willing to own up to when I make a mistake.Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 04:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In all, I think that a good solution to this conflict(s) would be a 2 way IBAN between Ghost and myself, after the DRN or any other consensus building forum has concluded. Our editing seems to primarily intersect at two pages-Hardeep Singh Nijjar and Canada-India diplomatic row out of the many hundreds of pages we've edited, the C-I row is not a page I'm particularly interested in anymore. There may be more developments on those two pages surrounding the ongoing criminal investigation, but that's not something I'm too interested in and will likely not make edits towards. I'm committed to resolving the Nijjar content dispute peacefully through consensus, and I hope Ghost will too, and I'll also commit to avoiding GoDG as much as possible from hereon. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 05:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Liz, I agree, but a lot of my earlier thoughts/responses were unorganized as this a pretty complicated, high stress dispute. Would me linking my earlier responses be a good solution? Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 07:04, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This was my previous statement(s) up until 21 November 4:38 , I substantially altered it for length and because a lot of the responses were spur of the moment/unorganized-[42]. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 07:12, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (103.251.217.66 (talk))

I think both needs to calm down. both should talk on the article talk page before making changes to the article and stop reverting changes.
I see this is only as content dispute... I don't think Southasianhistorian8 is attacking you op.. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GhostOfDanGurney&diff=prev&oldid=1255952101 you should assume good faith.. and you are also trying gatekeep article it seems to me... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Canada%E2%80%93India_diplomatic_row#NPOV

Statement by Simonm223

I would concur that both editors should probably both get some space from each other for a few days. A short-duration 2-way iBan might be a reasonable remedy here. Most of the edits in contention from both editors don't seem disruptive although both could be a bit more careful with sourcing to avoid primary sources and to ensure that secondary sources are included in major edits. The only point of contention I'd take with either's position (as I don't think either is actually entirely wrong so much as operating at cross-purposes) surrounds the interpretation of WP:BLPCRIME. Arsh Dalla is not a public figure per the definition laid out by WP:PUBLICFIGURE because his notoriety is entirely from the circumstances of him having been accused of a crime. As such the guidance, editors must seriously consider not including material—in any article—that suggests the person has committed or is accused of having committed a crime, unless a conviction has been secured for that crime very much applies here. Simonm223 (talk) 19:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Southasianhistorian8 there is a key difference between Bishnoi and Dalla. Bishnoi stood trial and was convicted. My understanding is that Canada has declined to arrest and extradite Dalla. As such, since he is a free person and considered innocent both under Canadian law and by Wikipedia's standards, and since all the media coverage around him is about whether he did any criminal acts, we should not be commenting on him on Wikipedia. I hope this clarifies WP:BLPCRIME for you. Simonm223 (talk) 20:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly my attempt to provide some friendly help regarding the BLPCRIME issue has left me a bit more concerned about WP:IDHT than I was at the outset. Especially since WP:OSE statements do not override BLP policy. Simonm223 (talk) 23:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Swatjester

Regardless of which side is correct on the merits of the arguments, it does *not* help SAH's case that they've presented their opposition to Ghost of Dan Gurney in an uncivil and excessively inflammatory manner. "he clearly has an extreme vendetta against and is desperate to hound me off this page" fails to assume good faith. So does accusing them of having "a long history of suppressing any critical information on the page... saw this opportunity and rushed to try to hound me further." Vaguely handwaving at a previous report does not suffice to make that anything less than an aspersion. Saying "I find it reprehensible that this bullying behaviour has carte-blanche on Wikipedia" is both uncivil, inflammatory, and presumes that the behavior is 1) bullying, and 2) has "carte-blanche" despite this AE request existing and there having been discussion about it in multiple talk page forums already. Regardless of how this AE gets decided, I'd admonish SAH to find a more constructive, less inflammatory way of expressing their positions. I think all involved would do well to be reminded that in a contentious topic area you need to be on your best behavior. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 21:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Black Kite

SAH is still - whilst this AE is continuing and having started a DRN on the topic themselves - removing sourced and DUE information at Hardeep Singh Nijjar [43]. Quite bizarre behaviour, almost like they want to be sanctioned. Black Kite (talk) 21:04, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Southasianhistorian8

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Southasianhistorian8, you're at three times your limit and no admins have commented yet. You need to trim about a thousand words. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:43, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't had the time to look into this in-depth, but I plan to in the next couple days. In the meantime, has anyone started a thread at BLPN? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:58, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This seems like a plain dispute over interpretation of BLPCRIME with respect to an edit that was made yesterday, but instead of a discussion at WP:BLPN, there are three enforcement threads visible on this page and another at WP:AN. Perhaps the editors involved should try BLPN first, or other forms of dispute resolution, instead of running here to get each other banned? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:35, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I encouraged these editors to take their dispute to DRN. I think everyone needs to de-escalate, step away from the article, and let the process at DRN play out. If that fails and this acrimony continues, IBANs, TBANs, or page restrictions might be needed. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also haven't had time to research this properly, but I've noticed without difficulty that SAH's behaviour on this very page is poor. SAH, you point out that GhostOfDanGurney told someone to go fuck themselves in 2018, (near the beginning of their Wikipedia career) called somebody else a thot in the same year, and you "strongly urge admins to issue a block for these juvenile insults". A block? Six years after the fact? Please don't air ancient history at AE, especially when it has nothing to do with the matter in hand. I see you offer the same diffs and others from your historical collection in the retaliatory report below, too. I'm also interested to see your explanation of Black Kite's point that during this AE, you removed sourced and DUE information at Hardeep Singh Nijjar, 'almost like [you] want to be sanctioned'. You explain that two editors on Talk wanted to "move" the information, and therefore you re-moved it, intending to move it to the body and even, virtuously, expand on it there, but were interrupted at this very point. This statement of yours flies in the face of a) your edit summary for the removal,[44] and b) what you yourself said about it on Talk.[45] In view of that, the drama where you are "unexpectedly called away" is unfortunately not credible. Bishonen | tålk 04:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC).[reply]
Just noting that I think Southasianhistorian8 has rewritten much of their statement here today. Many comments others have referred to are now absent from their statement. I know that the length of their content was a concern but I don't think a participant should basically rewrite their original statement in response to other editors' complaints. It's confusing when one tries to understand the flow of the discussion. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, indeed they have, and that's not acceptable. Before I commented, I counted SAH's words to see if they had complied with shortening their statement. Yes, they had, it was 554 words. Then, after I had complained about poor behaviour, specifically asking admins to block G over ancient diffs, and trying to explain away Black Kite's complaint of disruption during this case, they "substantially altered it for length and because a lot of the responses were spur of the moment/unorganized". That's one way of putting it. Another would be that after my criticism and Simon223's, they removed the things we criticized. That's unacceptable on talkpages, and just as unacceptable here. Linking to the old version doesn't help much. You simply shouldn't have done it. I have restored the version I commented on, with a link to your new, massaged, less "spur of the moment" version. The time to think is before you post here, not after people have told you what's wrong with it. Note, if you decide to no longer offer an argument that's been criticized, you may of course disown it. But that's done by ~~crossing it out, like this~~. Not by removing it. Bishonen | tålk 09:15, 21 November 2024 (UTC).[reply]

GhostOfDanGurney

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning GhostOfDanGurney

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Southasianhistorian8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 04:03, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: GhostOfDanGurney (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Topic ban on India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan related topics.

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

19 September 2023 Tendentious edit warring alleging "anti-Canada POV pushing" despite numerous editors' objections and RS
21 October 2023 Admits to harassing another user he was in a content dispute with on Twitter.
25 October 2024 ~~Personal attacks~~ Inflammatory edit summary, accusing of cherrypicking and being without evidence, even though most of the article included content for which evidence was not publicly disclosed and WP:OWN behaviour
22 October 2024 More ~~personal attacks~~ inflammatory edit summaries, also acknolwedged by ScottishFinnishRadish in the 1st AE
26 October 2024 Replaces neutrally worded sentence with an inflammatory and tendentious interpretation of a primary source as acknowledged by ScottishFinnishRadish, clearly attempting to publicly discredit the diplomat, thus violating WP:BLP. Also a clear case of WP:HOUNDING and WP:OWN behaviour. (Also the impetus to this while conflict)
26 October 2024 Files an A/E request over a content dispute, wasting a large amount of community time
26 October 2024 Falsely claimed I plagiarized his work
15 November 2024 WP:IDHT, brazenly ignoring sources right above him which explicitly state that Dalla's alleged criminal network was linked to Khalistani militancy
14 November 2024 Makes an inflammatory and condescending post on my talk page, accusing me of WP:NPOV violations and threatening to escalate matters before engaging on the t/p.
14 November 2024 Files another A/E request days after his first failed one over 1(!) revert and me responding to his escalation on my t/p. Instead of following WP:BRD, Ghost is filing frivolous reports forcing this platform to be a substitute for content issues. He did not engage with my arguments on the t/p of the Nijjar page which I laid out right after he reverted me, instead he immediately filed a 2nd report, then waited multiple hours to respond to my points on the t/p. He cannot even abide by Wikipedia's most fundamental policy which is to discuss when you have a disagreement with someone, not intimidate them through reports.
15 November 2024 Falsely claimed I was in violation of edit warring, citing a total of one revert.
20 November 2024 Further exhibits bizarre, unprovoked aggression despite a DRN being underway, where editors are expected to try to reach a consensus civilly.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

14 August 2020 Blocked for personal attacks
19 June 2018 Blocked for edit warring

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Previously given a discretionary sanction or contentious topic restriction or warned for conduct in the area of conflict on 21 October 2023 by Kautilya3.
Gave CTOPS warning in this topic area on 19 October 2024

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

GhostOfDanGurney has a history of being incredibly rude and juvenile when engaged in content disputes. He regularly calls people names, assumes bad faith or incites drama through his inflammatory bheaviour-Be gone thot, Actually, I'll let people see how much of a hypocrite you are for posting this fucking bullshit., [46], [47], [48], [49], among numerous other diffs. Constantly exhibits tendentious and WP:OWN behaviour in articles-[50], [51], [52] + [53], [54], [55].

Even barring the personal attacks, how is it fair that he's non stop filing frivolous reports against me-in the most recent A/E he filed, it was literally over one revert, content he personally didn't like, and me responding to his escalation on my t/p (pretty ironic considering what he says on his own t/p). Instead of engaging with my points on the article's t/p, he filed a 2nd A/E. How is that not brazen harassment and bullying and a major waste of time? How in the world is that not a weaponization of A/E to get one over an editor they dislike? Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 04:55, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GhostOfDanGurney The definition of militancy is as follows: "the use of confrontational or violent methods in support of a political or social cause." Militancy almost always involves criminal behaviour and actions, does it not? Otherwise it wouldn't be called militancy, it'd be called activism. A criminal network alleged to be close the Khalistan movement apparently does not mean violent actions taken out in order to support the movement? Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 07:38, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GhostOfDanGurney your A/E request against me- stated that I have a WP:LISTENing (IDHT) problem. Please give me examples in the past 2 years where I specifically acted against or ignored community consensus in terms of a content dispute. If you are unable to do so, it'll be overly clear that you're just throwing anything on the wall against me, as a substitute for engaging on the t/p, despite yourself far more being guilty of the same accusations you throw out. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 23:30, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now that a DRN is underway, it would be nice for you to at least temporarily stop inciting conflict and work towards a consensus there. If you are unable to do so, admins should issue an immediate block for failing to discuss despite initiating a content dispute and battleground behaviour. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 23:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GhostOfDanGurney, an A/E report was well overdue given your lengthy and egregious WP:OWN and inflammatory conduct on various articles. You constantly using this platform as a substitute for BRD pushed it over the edge, and in of itself is sanctionable. The desperation to bar anyone from examining his atrocious conduct is telling. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 00:04, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested: [56]

Discussion concerning GhostOfDanGurney

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by GhostOfDanGurney

In their statement in the above request against them, they said, "He has yet to engage in the t/p of the article where I laid out sources and arguments". So I commented on the talk page,[57] saying that I opposed the content as (in addition to the BLPCRIME issue) there was already adequate sourced content on Hardeep Singh Nijjar#Allegations of militant activity (it's already the largest section of the article). This had nothing to do with the additional sources SAH presented to the talk page after I had removed the content.

I then wrote a sentence on the wording "criminal network" as used by SAH in their >greentext proposal which made no corroboration to any militancy, just allusions to "gangsters". It did not mention the KTF by name, and the preceding quote they posted only mentions "the Khalistan cause". An IDHT charge here is a long stretch that shows a misunderstanding of the policy, and to use the phrase "brazenly ignoring" here is an assumption of bad faith. If my above request doesn't result in sanctions against SAH, this frivolous request should. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 07:18, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What does any of that re: militancy have to do with me "act[ing] as though [my] point must be accepted by the community when [I] have been told otherwise.", per WP:IDHT? I don't understand at all how my talk page comment violates IDHT. What about that specific comment is actionable here? ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 08:32, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is SAH is unable or unwilling to answer the above question, this retaliatory attempt at a tu quoque style of ad hominem should be closed with a WP:BOOMERANG. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 22:47, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's twice now I've asked this question and gotten no response. It's obvious that this retaliatory request is a backdoor way to get around the 500-word limit that you ignored before @ScottishFinnishRadish: told you to trim it. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk) 23:45, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning GhostOfDanGurney

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

This is unnecessary, and retaliatory. Spot checking of the diffs alleging personal attacks, I don't see anything remotely of the sort. Going back and digging up diffs from 2018 and 2021 is likewise unhelpful and represents a battleground mentality towards weaponizing an AE action that is deeply concerning. Honestly if SAH thought this was a good idea after not listening to the advice about dropping the stick and behaving more civilly on the other AE request, it probably merits boomerang sanctions to stop the disruption. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 04:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SAH, I've looked at the diffs. The ones from 2024 don't appear actionable, and I think your characterizations of them as personal attacks are a stretch. The "thots" and "go fuck themselves" diffs were, as I mentioned, from 2018 and 2021, not directed at you, and were comments from his own talk page (which is a space where he is entitled to ask people to stop/leave within the confines of WP:USERTALKSTOP, and though it doesn't excuse the incivility of the language, we tend to give a degree of leeway in those cases.) So I don't see the relevance of those edits to your dispute with GhostofDanGurney today. ⇒SWATJester ^{Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat!} 04:47, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Blockhaj

Blockhaj is indefinitely topic banned from Yasuke, broadly construed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:51, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Blockhaj

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: Gitz6666 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 11:33, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Blockhaj (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Yasuke
Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

20:11, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj adds according to some historians against clear RFC consensus (There exists a consensus to refer to Yasuke as a samurai without qualification), plus tag bombing.
22:54, 15 November 2024 . More POV-pushing - further neutralising the text, Blockhaj removes sourced content on the samurai status (Nobunaga (...) made him the first recorded foreigner to receive the rank of samurai).
23:11, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj explains their reasons, That rfc is not neutral, after I opened a discusssion on the talk page (Recent edits).
23:47, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj restores their edits after Silver seren undid them at 23:24, 15 November 2024.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on 23:00, 15 November 2024.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Both edit N° 1 and edit N° 2 are reverts (undoing this edit and this edit respectively); Blockhaj violated WP:1RR by restoring their preferred version with edit N° 4. Besides, disregard for RfC consensus (WP:IDHT) and POV-pushing are pretty clear. There may be a lack of knowledge of WP:RULES, as suggested by their behaviour during the Yasuke case (between 08:57, 10 November 2024 and 09:10, 10 November 2024, Blockhaj added their !votes to the Proposed Decision and got reverted by ScottishFinnishRadish here) and by this unwarranted removal of another user's comment: 19:53, 15 November 2024. Still, it's disruptive.

With the 1RR restriction now in place, their preferred description for Yasuke is now still in the first sentence of the lead section.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

11:30, 16 November 2024

Discussion concerning Blockhaj

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Blockhaj

Im sorta done with the Yasuke discussion since there is a clear motive by particularly focused edditors to not improve the page based on arbitrary systems rather than direct discussion.

As for the complaints:

20:11, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj adds according to some historians against clear RFC consensus (There exists a consensus to refer to Yasuke as a samurai without qualification), plus tag bombing.

The rfc cannot be taken seriously by anyone interested in history. It is not a neutral statement and goes against basic principles of such subjects like Yasuke. We have very few sources on Yasuke, and educated guesses about his status, especially judgmental terms such as samurai, should not be portrayed as unanimous by historians to any degree of imagination. This is a case of echochambering. The rfc was full of users with no previous edits on Wikipedia, and the larger coherent "edit gathering" coincided with Ubisofts announcement and following damage control of their new game portraying Yasuke as a full-fledged samurai. I do not claim that every new editor there was hired by Ubisoft, but it was clearly corelated to some degree and biased in favour of the company's agenda.--Blockhaj (talk) 12:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As for the "tag bombing" (how can 2 related tags be classified as tag bombing?), they reflect the discussion which has been going on under the section: Talk:Yasuke#Full_section_regarding_the_definition_of_samurai.--Blockhaj (talk) 12:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

22:54, 15 November 2024 . More POV-pushing - further neutralising the text, Blockhaj removes sourced content on the samurai status (Nobunaga (...) made him the first recorded foreigner to receive the rank of samurai).

This paragraph was out of place because it is covered later in the text with better formatting and is thus superfluous and somewhat disruptive to the latter flow.--Blockhaj (talk) 12:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

23:11, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj explains their reasons, That rfc is not neutral, after I opened a discusssion on the talk page (Recent edits).

This one is self-explanatory above.--Blockhaj (talk) 12:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

23:47, 15 November 2024. Blockhaj restores their edits after Silver seren undid them at 23:24, 15 November 2024.

Silver seren reverted various edits in one swoop without checking them, reintroducing various textual errors from previous erronous edits which i had fixed.--Blockhaj (talk) 12:13, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Blockhaj

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I'm thinking indef topic ban, although I'll give this a bit to see if there's any objection. Ignoring an RFC and edit warring after an arb case just wrapped up is definitely the wrong call. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:58, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Ecrusized

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user: Ecrusized (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Ecrusized (talk) 15:00, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed: WP:CT/A-I

Sanction notice on user talk page. Diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ecrusized&diff=prev&oldid=1224781735

Discussion leading to the block: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1157#WP:BATTLEGROUND User:BilledMammal

Administrator imposing the sanction: ScottishFinnishRadish (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator: The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ScottishFinnishRadish&diff=prev&oldid=1257767232

Statement by Ecrusized

Greetings all. Today is precisely the 180th day since the filing of my indefinite topic ban on the Arab-Israeli conflict. I was sanctioned for WP:BATTLEGROUND editing, not understanding the arbitration rules, (including 1RR). As well as a commentary towards other editors. During the past 6 months, I have completely refrained from editing any and all topics linked to the Arab-Israeli conflict on English Wikipedia. I have updated the maps of the Israel-Hamas war, and Israel-Hezbollah conflict, on Commons, after confirming with ScottishFinnishRadar, the administrator who sanctioned me, that editing commons was not in violation of my topic ban. I would like to appeal my topic ban in this area because I have now learned about the 1RR rule, what the arbitration commitee is and how its rules work. As well as my personal commentary towards other editors in the topic area. I believe my appeal is just as I have observed all of my sanctions rules since its enforcement, and I have waited 6 months to file this very first appeal on the ban as its required. Thank you all.

Ecrusized response to Red-tailed hawk

Dear Red-tailed hawk, neither of the two articles you've linked, which I have edited during my topic ban, are sanctioned under WP:CT/A-I. During the time of my sanctioning from the topic, I have checked the talk page header of every article I was editing to confirm beforehand that I was not violating my topic ban. 2024 missile strikes in Yemen is an article about US and British strikes on Yemen. The article is not linked to the Arab-Israeli conflict on its talk page header in any way. Instead, it is applied to enforcement for post-1978 Iranian politics. For which I was not placed under restriction for. Regarding the now deleted article, 2024 Turkish Hostage Crisis which I nominated for deletion. It was a news story citing Turkish language sources, once again, not linked to the WP:CT/A-I nor in the scope of that topic. Both of the articles are also not linked Israel, or Arab-Israeli conflict in their categories. Additionally, I was told my the administrator giving me my sanction that I must refrain from editing topics involving Arab-Israeli conflict, which is what I did. I was not told that I must also refrain from editing topics that might be related to that topic area. This is why I am asking for an appeal, and giving a bold statement saying During the past 6 months, I have completely refrained from editing any and all topics linked to the Arab-Israeli conflict on English Wikipedia. If there are clear lines defining this topic ban, I believe I have completely abided by them. Ecrusized (talk) 21:42, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ecrusized 2nd response to Red-tailed hawk

Dear Red-tailed hawk you are indeed correct that 2024 missile strikes in Yemen was sanctioned under WP:ARBPIA at the time of my editing. However, this was not mentined in the talk page header where arbitration enforcements are generally written, and in my notion, without a guideline stating it as such, I did not consider US-UK strikes on Yemen within the scope of Arab-Israeli conflict. This does not appear to be a deliberate or blatant violation of my sanctioning from the topic area, but a misidentification of the enforcement, and its mandated expression. I believe I am asking my appeal in good faith. As an user who was previously heavily involved in editing Arab-Israeli conflict articles, I have nearly completely refrained from editing them, apart from one or two articles where the enforcement was not directly visible. Ecrusized (talk) 10:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by ScottishFinnishRadish

Statement by Red-tailed hawk

I am going to note that the user continued to make edits to articles relating to the 2024 missile strikes in Yemen, a topic very much within the scope of the ongoing war (see Israel–Hamas war#Yemen and the Red Sea) after the topic ban was issued on 20 May. These edits include:

A substantial edit to 2024 missile strikes in Yemen made on 31 May;
A page move and associated talk page move related to a specific missile strike in Yemen that was moved on 1 June;
Another set of edits to 2024 missile strikes in Yemen on 16 June.
The user created an AfD for 2024 Turkish hostage crisis on 5 July. The article was about a hostage taking scenario that was a protest against Israeli actions in Gaza.

As such, I am skeptical of the appellant's statement from above, where the appellant said During the past 6 months, I have completely refrained from editing any and all topics linked to the Arab-Israeli conflict on English Wikipedia. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 20:33, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In response to this comment:

With respect to neither of the two articles you've linked, which I have edited during my topic ban, are sanctioned under WP:CT/A-I, I will note that 2024 missile strikes in Yemen is extended confirmed protected per WP:ARBPIA (see this comment at WP:AELOG/2024#PIA), and that the infobox of 30 May 2024 Yemen strikes at the time of the page move indicated that this was part of the "spillover of the Israel–Hamas war". I do not understand how you reason that neither of these are within the scope of the WP:BROADLY construed Arab-Israeli conflict.
With respect to the deleted article, I have requested it be temporarily undeleted to show the text to everybody. However, it is quite clear to me that an article about a protest action against Israel's actions in the ongoing war would be within the scope of the WP:BROADLY construed WP:PIA tban.

— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:24, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will note that 2024 Turkish hostage crisis has now been restored temporarily for the purposes of this discussion. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:40, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (involved editor 2)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Ecrusized

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by (uninvolved editor 1)

Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

Result of the appeal by Ecrusized

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Carthradge

Stale, and the reporting editor had their EC permission pulled for gaming. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:20, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Carthradge

User who is submitting this request for enforcement: IdanST (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:58, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested: Carthradge (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced: Wikipedia:ARBPIA4

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

04:45, 23 September 2024 blatant WP:NPOV, WP:ECR and WP:PIA violations, while lying it's "Replacing link with more relevant direct link to topic".
16:42, 23 September 2024 WP:WAR violation, edit war with IvanScrooge98.
20:09, 13 October 2024 edit war continuation, blatantly violating WP:WAR, reverting again, this time edit war with me (that I reverted once to before he started this edit war).
20:32, 13 October 2024 personal attack, violating WP:NPA, while falsely claiming "they used minor edits with misleading descriptions to remove references to Gaza Genocide", despite he was the one that actually added that while he had no right to and engaged with multiple edit wars while violating WP:NPOV and WP:WAR.
00:18, 14 October 2024 he acknowledged SFR warning, that SFR reverted the edits, and later SFR even warned him twice here.
05:55, 17 October 2024 just 5 hours later he resumed WP:ECR, WP:PIA, WP:NPOV and WP:WAR violations, while ignoring SFR warnings.
18:18, 1 November 2024 as usual, WP:ECR, WP:WAR and WP:NPOV blatant violations.
Link now this page is ECR protected because that non-ECR editor didn't stop vandalising the page while ignoring admins warnings regarding his violations. There is a fair chance he'll keep vandalising, but in other articles.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

Here

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

These are also nearly all the edits the user has made over the past 6 months. I believe this user is WP:NOTHERE.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

16:10, 17 November 2024

Discussion concerning Carthradge

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Carthradge

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Carthradge

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

[1] The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction.

[2] This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator.

[a]

[b]

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