Talk:List of largest empires

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Empires with sourced areas but without dates

I figured I'd make a section for empires where sources have been found for the maximum extent but with no year specified (meaning they can't be included in the list). My hope is that this will be helpful when people try to locate sources. Feel free to add entries of your own to the list below. TompaDompa (talk) 23:38, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ashanti Empire: 100,000 square miles^[1] – since added using this source which provides the corresponding figure of 250,000 km² and the year 1820.^[2] TompaDompa (talk) 21:05, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Balhae: 438,000 km²^[3]
Đại Cồ Việt: 110,000 km²^[4]
Durrani Empire: 780,000 square miles/2,000,000 km²^[5]
Dzungar Khanate: 3,600,000 km²^[3] – since added using this source which provides the same figure and the year 1650.^[6] TompaDompa (talk) 03:03, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kanem Empire: 300,000 square miles^[7]
Nguyễn dynasty: 370,000 km²^[8]
Southern Qi: 2,147,000 km²^[3]
Phoenicia: 250,000 square miles^[9]
Vijayanagara Empire: 360,000 km²^[10]
Wari Empire: 320,000 km^{2^[11]}
Wuhuan: 400,000 km²^[3]
Xianbei state: 4,500,000 km²^[3] – since added using this source which provides the same figure and the year 200.^[6] TompaDompa (talk) 03:03, 18 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can add those empires in the list, I would only noted in the time cell "unknown". Janos Neman (talk) 12:09, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about largest empires, as such they might not have been at the time they existed. Slatersteven (talk)

References

^ Obeng, J. Pashington (1996). Asante Catholicism: Religious and Cultural Reproduction Among the Akan of Ghana. BRILL. p. 20. ISBN 978-90-04-10631-4. An empire of a hundred thousand square miles, occupied by about three million people from different ethnic groups, made it imperative for the Asante to evolve sophisticated statal and parastatal institutions [...]
^ Iliffe, John (1995-08-25). Africans: The History of a Continent. Cambridge University Press. p. 143. ISBN 978-0-521-48422-0. At its peak around 1820 the empire embraced over 250,000 square kilometres [...]
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e Cioffi-Revilla, Claudio; Rogers, J. Daniel; Wilcox, Steven P.; Alterman, Jai (2008). "Computing the Steppes: Data Analysis for Agent-Based Modeling of Polities in Inner Asia" (PDF). Proceedings of the 104th Annual Meeting of the American Political Scientific Association. pp. 8–9. Retrieved 2020-07-13.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
^ Wade, Geoff (2014-10-17). Asian Expansions: The Historical Experiences of Polity Expansion in Asia. Routledge. p. 144. ISBN 978-1-135-04353-7. [T]he state of Đại Cồ Việt was established in the tenth century [...] The maximum extent of the territory at that time was around 110,000 square kilometres.
^ Bosin, Yury V. (2009), "Durrani Empire, Popular Protests, 1747–1823" (PDF), The International Encyclopedia of Revolution and Protest, p. 1029, doi:10.1002/9781405198073.wbierp0481, ISBN 978-1-4051-9807-3, retrieved 2020-07-14
^ ^a ^b Bang, Peter Fibiger; Bayly, C. A.; Scheidel, Walter (2020-12-02). The Oxford World History of Empire: Volume One: The Imperial Experience. Oxford University Press. pp. 92–94. ISBN 978-0-19-977311-4.
^ Shillington, Kevin (2013-07-04). Encyclopedia of African History 3-Volume Set. Routledge. p. 733. ISBN 978-1-135-45670-2. The limits of the empire correspond approximately with the boundaries of the Chad Basin, an area of more than 300,000 square miles.
^ Wade, Geoff (2014-10-17). Asian Expansions: The Historical Experiences of Polity Expansion in Asia. Routledge. p. 144. ISBN 978-1-135-04353-7. [W]hen Nguyễn Vietnam surrendered to France in the late nineteenth century the territory it claimed to control had more than tripled to over 370,000 square kilometres
^ Hart, Hornell (1948). "The Logistic Growth of Political Areas". Social Forces. 26 (4): 402. doi:10.2307/2571873. ISSN 0037-7732. In the Mediterranean area the earliest historic governments which extended their territory by major use of fleets were the Greek and the Phoenecian, reaching areas of approximately 250,000 square miles each
^ Morrison, Kathleen D.; Sinopoli, Carla M. (1992). "Economic Diversity and Integration in a Pre-Colonial Indian Empire". World Archaeology. 23 (3): 336. ISSN 0043-8243. At its maximal extent the Vijayanagara empire encompassed some 360,000 square kilometers
^ Alcock, Susan E.; D'Altroy, Terence N.; Morrison, Kathleen D.; Sinopoli, Carla M. (2001-08-09). Empires: Perspectives from Archaeology and History. Cambridge University Press. p. 85. ISBN 978-0-521-77020-0. The total spatial extent of the empire, not including the north coast, I estimate to have been some 320,000 square kilometers.

Xiongnu Empire

It is a bit confusing that the Xiongnu empire is listed at 9m km2 in 176 BC as the largest in history to date, but then in the table of largest at that time, the Han dynasty is still listed as the largest, with the Xiongnu empire appearing not until 150 BC at only ~5m km2 Samsledje (talk) 15:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The latter table gives snapshot estimates at 50-year intervals at that point in time, following the cited source. The source makes an exception for the Macedonian Empire, so it gets an in-between entry at 323 BCE. The source also makes an exception for Assyria in 660 BCE, but that happens to fall between entries where Assyria is at the top regardless, so it doesn't show in our table apart from the maximum area estimate being higher than it otherwise would have been. TompaDompa (talk) 17:19, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Potential Unit Error

The table under Empires at their greatest extent uses "Million km^2" as the unit for land area. The cited source by Rein Taagepera ("Expansion and Contraction Patterns of Large Polities: Context for Russia") uses Mm^2 (Megameters squared). These are not equivalent units, and it does not appear that unit was converted correctly. 2600:8804:6F00:3D50:D19E:BB2F:53DF:629A (talk) 17:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's correct the way it is: 1 million km² is the same thing as 1 Mm². A square with side length 1,000 km = 1 Mm has an area of 1 million square kilometers, and equivalently an area of 1 square megameter. TompaDompa (talk) 19:15, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I stand corrected. Mental glitch. 2600:8804:6F00:3D50:D19E:BB2F:53DF:629A (talk) 01:25, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Recent changes

Æ's old account wasn't working removed Nazi Germany from the list, writing that The nazis never made an empire. Whether or not we think it should count, The Oxford World History of Empire includes it in their list of empires. If we are to exclude entries that our sources deem empires, that needs to be based on some kind of predefined criteria that we can apply consistently, and not just because we disagree with the sources in individual cases.

The same editor changed the caption of the lead image from The British Empire (red) and Mongol Empire (blue) were the largest and second-largest empires in history, respectively. to The British Empire (red) and Mongol Empire (blue) were two of the largest empires in history. The original version is more precise, and clearly explains why those particular empires are the ones we use a map to show in the first place. There is no reason to be vague here.

I have reverted these edits and reinstated the long-standing stable version. TompaDompa (talk) 09:03, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you know what Western bias is? Because that is what's happening here. Æ's old account wasn't working (talk) 09:06, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is way too unspecific an objection to even begin to address. TompaDompa (talk) 09:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One source does not describe all. Æ's old account wasn't working (talk) 10:12, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I will leave you with this question:

What is an empire?

It seems we all need to think about it. Æ's old account wasn't working (talk) 10:14, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's no more actionable than what you said before. You have yet to articulate any concrete suggestion, or indeed problem description. And yet you changed the article to your preferred version for the third time despite having been reverted twice. TompaDompa (talk) 16:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A worthy opponent!

Just what I need! Æ's old account wasn't working (talk) 02:45, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you want sources?

I can give you sources. Æ's old account wasn't working (talk) 02:58, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The data on the British Empire is inaccurate. Absurdly inaccurate. Æ's old account wasn't working (talk) 10:22, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SOurce? Slatersteven (talk) 12:08, 20 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source(s) incoming! Æ's old account wasn't working (talk) 02:55, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For example:

According to the National Archives of Australia, Australia became an independent country on 1 January 1901.

I could list off some more SOurced examples, but this alone is most likely enough.

Might come back to this soon. Æ's old account wasn't working (talk) 11:11, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No it became a self-governing Dominion in the British Empire. Slatersteven (talk) 13:24, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It all depends on what autonomy is.

Using my example from earlier, Australia was effectively an independent nation by 1901, though not fully independent. The Australian government considers 01/01/1901 to be the nation's date of independence, however the journey to full independence from their British overlords definitely took some time.

Dominions were mostly autonomous to some extent.

And besides, do you have any SOurces to list off in your defence? Æ's old account wasn't working (talk) 05:40, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

But they were still part of the empire. And yes, the one we already use in thre article. Slatersteven (talk) 12:36, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SOurce? Æ's old account wasn't working (talk) 01:51, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Saying that dominions were part of the empire would be like saying that the Soviet satellite states were part of the Soviet Union proper. Æ's old account wasn't working (talk) 01:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How is it that we consider Nazi Germany an empire, but not the Central African Empire? Æ's old account wasn't working (talk) 05:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's begging the question, really. What makes you assume this to be true? TompaDompa (talk) 15:37, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It was not one of histories largest empires? Slatersteven (talk) 15:45, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Explain why an empire larger than that of the Austro-Hungarian Empire doesn't qualify for the list. Æ's old account wasn't working (talk) 01:51, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well lets see...for one the Central African Empire was self-declared and seems to have lacked international recognition. The AH Hungarian empire was not self-declared, nor did it lack recognition, indeed it was a major participant in WWI. Can you not see how if I declare my self emperor of the world and my home address as "capitals of the world emperor" that woudmn not enable me to be put on the list?Slatersteven (talk) 10:50, 23 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Obeng, J. Pashington (1996). Asante Catholicism: Religious and Cultural Reproduction Among the Akan of Ghana. BRILL. p. 20. ISBN 978-90-04-10631-4. An empire of a hundred thousand square miles, occupied by about three million people from different ethnic groups, made it imperative for the Asante to evolve sophisticated statal and parastatal institutions [...]

[IlliffeAsante-2] Iliffe, John (1995-08-25). Africans: The History of a Continent. Cambridge University Press. p. 143. ISBN 978-0-521-48422-0. At its peak around 1820 the empire embraced over 250,000 square kilometres [...]

[Steppes-3] Cioffi-Revilla, Claudio; Rogers, J. Daniel; Wilcox, Steven P.; Alterman, Jai (2008). "Computing the Steppes: Data Analysis for Agent-Based Modeling of Polities in Inner Asia" (PDF). Proceedings of the 104th Annual Meeting of the American Political Scientific Association. pp. 8–9. Retrieved 2020-07-13.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)

[4] Wade, Geoff (2014-10-17). Asian Expansions: The Historical Experiences of Polity Expansion in Asia. Routledge. p. 144. ISBN 978-1-135-04353-7. [T]he state of Đại Cồ Việt was established in the tenth century [...] The maximum extent of the territory at that time was around 110,000 square kilometres.

[5] Bosin, Yury V. (2009), "Durrani Empire, Popular Protests, 1747–1823" (PDF), The International Encyclopedia of Revolution and Protest, p. 1029, doi:10.1002/9781405198073.wbierp0481, ISBN 978-1-4051-9807-3, retrieved 2020-07-14

[Oxford-6] Bang, Peter Fibiger; Bayly, C. A.; Scheidel, Walter (2020-12-02). The Oxford World History of Empire: Volume One: The Imperial Experience. Oxford University Press. pp. 92–94. ISBN 978-0-19-977311-4.

[7] Shillington, Kevin (2013-07-04). Encyclopedia of African History 3-Volume Set. Routledge. p. 733. ISBN 978-1-135-45670-2. The limits of the empire correspond approximately with the boundaries of the Chad Basin, an area of more than 300,000 square miles.

[8] Wade, Geoff (2014-10-17). Asian Expansions: The Historical Experiences of Polity Expansion in Asia. Routledge. p. 144. ISBN 978-1-135-04353-7. [W]hen Nguyễn Vietnam surrendered to France in the late nineteenth century the territory it claimed to control had more than tripled to over 370,000 square kilometres

[9] Hart, Hornell (1948). "The Logistic Growth of Political Areas". Social Forces. 26 (4): 402. doi:10.2307/2571873. ISSN 0037-7732. In the Mediterranean area the earliest historic governments which extended their territory by major use of fleets were the Greek and the Phoenecian, reaching areas of approximately 250,000 square miles each

[10] Morrison, Kathleen D.; Sinopoli, Carla M. (1992). "Economic Diversity and Integration in a Pre-Colonial Indian Empire". World Archaeology. 23 (3): 336. ISSN 0043-8243. At its maximal extent the Vijayanagara empire encompassed some 360,000 square kilometers

[11] Alcock, Susan E.; D'Altroy, Terence N.; Morrison, Kathleen D.; Sinopoli, Carla M. (2001-08-09). Empires: Perspectives from Archaeology and History. Cambridge University Press. p. 85. ISBN 978-0-521-77020-0. The total spatial extent of the empire, not including the north coast, I estimate to have been some 320,000 square kilometers.

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