Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard

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Welcome to Conflict of interest Noticeboard (COIN)
Sections older than 14 days archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) This Conflict of interest/Noticeboard (COIN) page is for determining whether a specific editor has a conflict of interest (COI) for a specific article and whether an edit by a COIN-declared COI editor meets a requirement of the Conflict of Interest guideline. A conflict of interest may occur when an editor has a close personal or business connection with article topics. Post here if you are concerned that an editor has a COI, and is using Wikipedia to promote their own interests at the expense of neutrality. For content disputes, try proposing changes at the article talk page first and otherwise follow the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution procedural policy.
You must notify any editor who is the subject of a discussion. You may use {{subst:coin-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.
Additional notes: This page should only be used when ordinary talk page discussion has been attempted and failed to resolve the issue, such as when an editor has repeatedly added problematic material over an extended period. Do not post personal information about other editors here without their permission. Non-public evidence of a conflict of interest can be emailed to paid-en-wpwikipedia.org for review by a functionary. If in doubt, you can contact an individual functionary or the Arbitration Committee privately for advice. The COI guideline does not absolutely prohibit people with a connection to a subject from editing articles on that subject. Editors who have such a connection can still comply with the COI guideline by discussing proposed article changes first, or by making uncontroversial edits. COI allegations should not be used as a "trump card" in disputes over article content. However, paid editing without disclosure is prohibited. Consider using the template series {{Uw-paid1}} through {{Uw-paid4}}. Your report or advice request regarding COI incidents should include diff links and focus on one or more items in the COI guideline. In response, COIN may determine whether a specific editor has a COI for a specific article. There are three possible outcomes to your COIN request: 1. COIN consensus determines that an editor has a COI for a specific article. In response, the relevant article talk pages may be tagged with {{Connected contributor}}, the article page may be tagged with {{COI}}, and/or the user may be warned via {{subst:uw-coi|Article}}. 2. COIN consensus determines that an editor does not have a COI for a specific article. In response, editors should refrain from further accusing that editor of having a conflict of interest. Feel free to repost at COIN if additional COI evidence comes to light that was not previously addressed. 3. There is no COIN consensus. Here, Lowercase sigmabot III will automatically archive the thread when it is older than 14 days. Once COIN declares that an editor has a COI for a specific article, COIN (or a variety of other noticeboards) may be used to determine whether an edit by a COIN-declared COI editor meets a requirement of the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest guideline.
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User:Metalworker14

• Symphony of Heaven (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Metalworker14 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• [nearly all additions of themetalonslaugth.com] appears to be from Metalworker14

I've definitively determined there's a strong COI between the editor and the band Symphony of Heaven and personally identifying private evidence has been emailed to paid-en-wpwikipedia.org. It isn't hard to find it, but we can't directly post such information. I am opening the case here, because I suspect further promotional activity such as promoting bands, record labels or sources cited within the articles the editor created. The user is a prolific creator of articles about Christian Metal and Metal bands, albums and record labels. Suspicion was triggered when Metalworker14 uploaded an image into Symphony of Heaven through Commons, stating that they were the copyright holder only for me to find that it's a downsized version of the black and white photo right above "biography" from the band's official website. The band's website is copyrighted and does not identify the author of the photo, and the photo that was on Commons did not have VRT verification. The user has previously been notified about uploading an image from the band's Facebook. In the process of investigating copyright matters, I browsed the band's website and came upon "For managemental concerns: Return to Dust Promotions" at contact section of the page. When I went to seek information on that company, the search result suggests COI with the extensively cited source "The Metal Onslaught Magazine is extensively cited in Symphony of Heaven as well as other articles created by the same author. Graywalls (talk) 18:39, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

While I cannot comment on whether there is a COI issue with the article you flagged without seeing the off-wiki evidence you found, I would like to add that this website themetalonslaught.com is not a RS at all, yet Metalworker14 has excessively used it across many articles which raises serious suspicions that they may have a COI with the magazine. I strongly suggest they stop using this source entirely unless they receive approval at WP:RSN. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 19:11, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

@Saqib:, I believe that there is COI with the Magazine and the inserting party, actually. I just had to be really careful to not go foul of WP:OUTING but if you spend a few minutes Googling, it should become clear. Graywalls (talk) 19:47, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Off-wiki evidence does suggest that they have a COI with both Symphony of Heaven and Ascending King. And according to our P&Gs, Metalworker14 is required to declare their COI either on their user page or on the tps of the relevant articles, which they have yet to do so I strongly urge them to do so as soon as possible. Also, I recommend they refrain from directly editing these articles but if they continue to ignore these warnings, a temporary block may be necessary to get their attention. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 14:38, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Symphony of Heaven is one thing, but the bigger issue is the extensive use of sources they're closely related to that are not WP:RS trying to bolster the notability of non-notable bands, albums and recording companies. If you spent more than a minute or two searching with the research skills held by quite a few Wiki editors, that should become obvious. All I can say is that it's highly plausible and convincing that Metalworker14 has vested interest to promote certain authors and certain magazines, production and promotion companies. Graywalls (talk) 14:52, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that is absolutely correct. The user has created over 150 articles and the frequency with which certain sources and authors are used would be considered industrial grade spam if those references were being added to pre-existing articles.

The fact that the user created the articles themselves and used these non WP:RS compliant sources to support notability makes the matter worse rather than better.

To be honest, the sheer number of links makes me wonder if Search engine optimization was a factor here. Axad12 (talk) 15:39, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

That's a large part of what music promoters do. Outside evidence suggests involvement of suspected COI editor partaking in the promotion business. Perhaps themetalonslaught needs to be suggested for Mediawiki blacklisting. Graywalls (talk) 15:44, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Quite so. There is no place on Wikipedia for this sort of activity. Axad12 (talk) 16:03, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

There appears to be a membership overlap between Symphony of Heaven, Timoratus, Ascending King, The Thlipsis, Mystic Winter. Also a member from those bands having COI with these sources cited by the user in question here

Metal Onslaught Magazine, Life of Defiance Podcast.

Other COI possibilities are Return to Dust Promotions and Battlefrost Productions Graywalls (talk) 16:35, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Axad12:, were you able to locate the source referring to these? Graywalls (talk) 20:34, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi, A couple of days ago I had a look at the references for every 6th article that the user had created (as listed on their user page). I saw enough to appreciate that, as per your earlier comments, there was a recurring reliance on a rather small number of particular sources and authors. On that basis I was inclined to agree with your estimation that the user was involved in promotion and that there was certainly a clear and transparent conflict of interest in relationship to a particular individual.

However, I must admit that I do not recall specific sources at this point in time as I seem to have been quite busy on this noticeboard in the intervening two days and this thread had rather slipped from my mind. Axad12 (talk) 20:51, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Just to update that still waiting on functionary to weigh in. Graywalls (talk) 20:45, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Disclosing stock investment?

This is a general question, not about a specific user or article. WP:PE mentions "being an … investor" as an example of a financial COI. Does this mean that people who own small stakes (well under 1%) of publicly traded companies need to disclose their holdings on their talk page? I haven’t seen this discussed on this noticeboard before, and I tend to avoid writing about companies in which I own any stock, but I am not sure if small stock holdings are considered a COI. White 720 (talk) 20:26, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Fuzzy line. I think even a 0.1% stake in a publicly traded company would be enough to keep most of us awake at night worrying about fluctuations in the share price, unless it's also less than 0.1% of your personal assets. Would your assertion that your small holding was not a COI pass the MANDY test? Safer to use the WP:ERW to keep the article's integrity intact, and your own integrity too. Cabayi (talk) 11:08, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Noted, thanks for your response. For certain megacap companies, a 0.1% stake would be worth over $1 billion; a more realistic stake for an individual investor would be closer to 0.000001%. White 720 (talk) 17:56, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I seem to remember Dennis Brown encountered this a while back. No idea what, if any, result emerged. SerialNumber54129 18:35, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

There was some split in the community on this, and there is no clear consensus, although one or two admin will go rogue and try to block anyone they can in these cases. I personally am not going to divulge my stock holdings, regardless of size, out of principle. My edits can be examined by anyone and are clearly not for financial gain, so it isn't anyone's business. Common sense says that if you own a substantial amount of a stock (my personal opinion means it is ~10% of your net worth, or you get ~10% of your income from it) then there is a clear COI, and should act as you would with any COI. It isn't about the dollar amount, the COI is about the influence it might have on your editing. If you do edit solely to benefit yourself, expect to get blocked; it doesn't matter how much you own. We can't verify your holdings, we can only judge your edits and most people have enough common sense to know a COI when they see it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:34, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with what the other commenters seem to be saying here, that the percentage of someone's portfolio or net-worth is more important that the percentage of the company. If you knowingly own a single share Berkshire Hathaway, but your whole ability to retire depends on its success or failure, I think it is going to impact your editing a lot more than if you owned 25% of Microsoft but that were only tiny fraction 0.1% of your total investments (although if you're so wealthy that you own that much of a major company, and it's only a tiny percentage of your portfolio, there's probably an article about yourself that you need to avoid the temptation to edit). PCHS Pirate Alumnus (talk) 19:07, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you and the other editors on this, what matters is percent of your own portfolio not the percent of the company you own with the exception of the truly stupendously wealthy. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:44, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Mark Kotter, Myelopathy.org, Bit.bio

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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A new editor has made three quality edited connected articles: Mark Kotter, Myelopathy.org, Bit.bio, and constantly removes all UPE/COI tags from them. I strongly suspect that this editor is connected with these subjects and they are all promotional to the work of Mark Kotter. Aszx5000 (talk) 20:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Damjana12 (talk · contribs) has created a total of three articles here, all related to Mark Kotter, which strongly suggests a COI. I recommend that Damjana12 declare this COI if they haven’t already. However, based on their tp, it appears they have repeatedly refused to disclose it when asked. I also found that Damjana12 has reversed the draftification of these articles to bypass the AFC route and has consistently removed the COI/UPE tags, which they should refrain from doing in the future. I’m sure that it’s not Mark himself writing these articles, but likely someone connected to him, such as an employee or a paid editor. For example, this Babraham Institute based IP 193.34.186.246 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has recently edited the bios for both Mark and Bit.bio and given Bit.bio is also headquartered at the Babraham Institute, it wouldn’t be surprising if Damjana12 is an employee from Bit.bio. Just my 2cents! Anyway, we’ll get to the bottom of this soon! — Saqib (talk I contribs) 21:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Saqib. I saw this partolling a while back and tagged it. I suspect that the skill-level of the editing strongly hints to a UPE (i.e. beyond the editing level of an employee trying to get their company on WP). thanks again for your attention. Aszx5000 (talk) 21:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Aszx5000, You might be right but the reason I mentioned it could be an employee of Bit.bio is that Damjana12 also created an article Spondyloarthritis (SpA) (redirected) that a typical paid editor usually wouldn’t be able to create because they aren't not an expert on the topic. You see my point, right? — Saqib (talk I contribs) 21:30, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I do, but when you patrol a lot of B-rated articles, you come across the tradecraft of advanced UPEs (i.e. who make very high quality articles), and one of their actions is to take a make a cut-out of an existing Wikipedia unrelated technical article (or import one from another WP-language) which they do in a single edit to create a more diverse editing history. Regardless, all things are possible and I have - unfortunately - seen all permutations :) Aszx5000 (talk) 21:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

The UPE has returned and removed all COI tags (again, for the third time now). Aszx5000 (talk) 09:02, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

User just needs to be blocked surely? Axad12 (talk) 09:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Just a note to say that off-wiki evidence indicates very clearly that the user has an obvious conflict of interest in relation to these subjects.

Therefore it is reasonable to assume that talkpage statements such as the following are false:

I chose to create the page on Mark after I watched this series on BBC where he is performing the operation

I have not receive any payment for creating pages

I have not made money by making any of my contributions on Wikipedia

The user may not have been specifically paid for their edits, but they are certainly an undisclosed paid editor with a strong conflict of interest in relation to bit.bio and Mark Kotter.

It never ceases to amaze me that users don't just admit their conflict of interest, make the relevant disclosure and follow the COI edit process, rather than making constant misrepresentations, wasting volunteers' time and taking themselves to the brink of an indefinite block. This is all the more the case when they provide details that make the reality clear in about 5 seconds to anyone wanting to investigate further. Axad12 (talk) 11:17, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I will not remove the tags until this is resolved.

However, there needs to be a fair discussion. On the topic of notability, Wikipedia guidelines propose the following https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(people)

People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published[ secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other and independent of the subject. In addition,

This applies to Mark Kotter as follows:

There are multiple published secondary sources that cover his achievements. These range from state media (e.g. Austrian Broadcasting Company), to commercial media, e.g. Forbes, and also include articles in scientific journal articles that summarise his achievements. Recently, Mark features in a 45 minute documentary on his life and contributions from the Austrian Broadcasting Company. I believe that very few people can claim this.

In addition, any biography where the person has received a well-known and significant award or honorary/ been nominated several times.

This is the case, Mark Kotter has won several national and international biotech and entrepreneurship awards. I am happy to update the list and find the links to the primary source.

These include: Great British Entrepreneur Awards, Mediscience Awards, Cambridge Independent Business Awards etc.

In addition, the following applies to academics - many scientists are notably influential in the world of ideas without their biographies being subject of secondary sources. A good metrics is therefore their h-index based on their publication record. Further evidence is the establishment of guidelines, including international clinical guidelines, NIHR James Lind Alliance Research Priority Partnerships, OMERACT minimal data sets etc. Mark Kotter has and continues to lead a number of such initiatives. 2A00:23C6:549E:9801:561:CFAF:F70C:6AA6 (talk) 20:31, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I want to address the recent claims made against my contributions to the articles on Mark Kotter, Myelopathy.org, and Bit.bio, as well as the suggestion that these pages be deleted on the grounds of undisclosed paid editing (UPE) or conflict of interest (COI). I believe these claims are unfair and do not accurately reflect the situation. Please allow me to explain why:

Quality of Contributions: The articles I have contributed to, including Mark Kotter, Myelopathy.org, and Bit.bio, are all well-researched and adhere to Wikipedia’s standards for neutrality, notability, and reliability. These articles cover important topics in biotechnology and medicine, which are of genuine public interest. The quality of an article should not be equated with promotional intent. These subjects meet Wikipedia’s notability guidelines and have been crafted to provide valuable, verifiable information.

Without wanting to go into my personal medical history, the reason I wrote something about Spondyloarthritis is because I suffer from the condition. And while I do not have a medical background, as a person affected for more than 10 years I do have a perspective.

Lack of Evidence for UPE/COI: While I understand that suspicions may arise when an editor creates multiple articles related to the same subject, I assure you that there is no undisclosed paid editing or conflict of interest involved. I have already clarified that my involvement with these topics stems from my professional experience and personal interest. I did intern at Bit.bio in 2020, which is openly disclosed, but I have not been paid or asked to create any of the pages. These contributions were made voluntarily out of a desire to improve Wikipedia’s coverage of notable subjects. There is no hidden financial motivation.

Reason for Removing Tags: I removed the COI/UPE tags from the articles because I genuinely believe they were unjustified. In the absence of any direct evidence of paid editing, such tags could mislead readers and create an unwarranted sense of distrust in the articles’ content. My removal of these tags was done transparently and in good faith, not as an attempt to obscure anything.

Professional Expertise Does Not Equal COI: It is important to recognize that editors who have expertise in a particular field, or connections to a subject, are not automatically disqualified from contributing to Wikipedia. Expertise often leads to high-quality contributions, and the Wikipedia community benefits from such knowledge. My professional background allows me to write accurately about these subjects, but this should not be conflated with promotional editing.

Notability and Relevance: The subjects I have contributed to, particularly Mark Kotter and bit.bio, are notable and have gained significant recognition within their respective fields. bit.bio is a leading UK biotech company, and Mark Kotter is a well-known figure in the medical community. These are not fringe or obscure topics but ones that deserve a presence on Wikipedia. Deleting these articles would deprive the platform of valuable, factual content.

Anyone who knows anything about the European biotech scene will undoubtedly know that bit.bio is one of most visible companies in this area. This is well demonstrated by independent journal articles, including from Forbes, Endpoints etc., press releases, mentions by government; bit.bio has been twice visited by the Minister for Science (both from the conservative and the labour parties). Third party press releases, e.g. from BlueRock Therapeutics mention their collaboration with bit.bio. (BlueRock has been all over the news recently for their Parkinson’s transplant).

Moreover, the board and SAB comprises some of the most visible and important people, and includes Hermann Hauser, Nobel Laureate Sir Greg Winter, SAB member Thore Graepel etc. I find it very strange that these people have been removed from the respective articles - it seems like there is an agenda in trying to actively undermine my contributions.

On the other hand, if the error is on my side and if I have failed to link the right sources to back this up, I apologise and am committed to work on this further.

Mark himself is a highly visible neurosurgeon and scientist. He is world renowned for his work on myelopathy; the charity is the only and largest charity that exists and has over 4000 patient members. If you look at his Google Scholar page, you will find very few other neurosurgeons in his field with a h-score approaching 50. He is the chief investigator of several international trials, leads the international RECODE Project, etc. It is just not right to mark this as ‘unimportant’.

Further evidence comes from independent press outlets: recently the Austrian Broadcasting Company (ORF) created an independent 45 minute documentary on his work: https://tv.orf.at/program/orf3/treffpunkt1796.html - this alone speaks to his notability; I am sure that you will struggle to find anything along these lines for 99% of the scientists who have Wiki pages.

Open to Discussion: I am committed to ensuring that my contributions meet Wikipedia’s guidelines, and I am more than willing to engage in constructive dialogue about any concerns raised. However, I believe that calling for the deletion of these pages without sufficient evidence or justification is premature and unfair. If there are remaining questions about the neutrality or accuracy of the articles, these should be addressed through discussion rather than through punitive measures like deletion. 86.139.243.27 (talk) 17:34, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I missed Mark Kotter because I've been reviewing articles near the 90-day cutoff, but Bit Bio is actually on the list of articles I was planning to review for NPP. I have mostly completed my BEFORE now, so expect to nominate it for deletion shortly. Alpha3031 (t • c) 02:42, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

AfD for Bit.bio here: [1]. Axad12 (talk) 05:39, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi, [Cut and paste copy of IP's previous post removed] 2A00:23C6:549E:9801:561:CFAF:F70C:6AA6 (talk) 17:17, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I hope you will agree that there is nothing wrong with my articles and I have removed the tags again. 2A00:23C6:549E:9801:561:CFAF:F70C:6AA6 (talk) 17:52, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Following on from my earlier comments, there is abundant off-wiki evidence to indicate very clearly that you currently have a long running conflict of interest in relation to bit.bio.

The reasons for suggested deletion are not punitive based on COI/UPE but relate to a basic failure to fulfil notability criteria (WP:NCORP). There is also a marked lack of independent sources and an over-reliance on press releases, which is clearly highly inappropriate for articles in the medical area.

Also your response above is 100% AI generated according to gptzero.me, so you really cannot expect readers to believe that it represents genuinely expressed sentiments or truth. In actual fact the response demonstrates a very faulty understanding of notability guidelines and the deletion process, and the material in relation to your conflict of interest is transparently untrue.

I will shortly replace the tags and would ask you (as other editors have done previously) not to remove them again. Axad12 (talk) 17:56, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

The explanations provided are simply not credible and I have therefore blocked the account. SmartSE (talk) 20:52, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

I am late to the party here as I did not see the COIN thread until after reviewing the bit.bio deletion discussion. I heavily trimmed Meatable and unless WP:NPROF can be shown, I do not believe Kotter would be notable. AfD will figure that out though. --CNMall41 (talk) 23:31, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ganbatte_Convention

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Ganbatte Convention (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Ganbatte_Michelle (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Based on the name and promotional edits, this user has a COI. Other editors have advised them of the COI policy, but they have not disclosed their COI as per Wikimedia's requirements and continue to edit the article. OXYLYPSE (talk) 11:04, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

They already mentioned on their tp that the organization is their friend's. Given that they created the draft and considering it was reviewed and declined twice, their unilateral decision to move it to the main namespace to bypass the AfC review process is concerning. I suggest they cease editing to this article, as they are not adhering to P&Gs. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 18:35, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I have moved the article back into draft space. Melcous (talk) 23:55, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

There are other pages too(Ex - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-Anime) which has same problem of not providing enough references for proofing there notability. So why there page is still valid...do they are paying the Wikipedia reviewers in any way so they don't remove there pages, i also have this question last time but the reviewers looks not in mood to solve the things, they just sitting here to remove pages Ganbatte Michelle (talk) 12:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Ganbatte Michelle, If you believe this article G-Anime doesn’t belong on Wikipedia, you can nominate it for deletion. However, arguing that this article exists so mine should too isn’t a strong justification. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 12:51, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Ganbatte Michelle Nobody is paying Wikipedia to have articles. The issues with Ganbatte Convention is that a) you have a conflict of interest b) you bypassed the draft approval process and c) it's probably not notable enough to be here.

You raise a fair comparison with G-Anime, I believe it falls under A7 for speedy deletion and have tagged it as such, but that may be challenged by any editor.

Nobody is here to be difficult, but there are processes you have been informed of several times that you refuse to follow. OXYLYPSE (talk) 13:01, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Like every anime convention page i created this page, nobody is here to help, I even found the reviewers here is not fair. You still keep pages who don't follow rules but who are genuinely trying you just removed there pages Ganbatte Michelle (talk) 13:57, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:AKS.9955 and regional airline articles in India and Kyrgyzstan

• AKS.9955 (talk · contribs)
• IndiaOne Air
  • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/IndiaOne Air
  • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/IndiaOne Air (2nd nomination) (Ongoing AfD)
• TezJet

I am making a very unorthodox decision to bypass talkpage warnings and communication in favour of a COIN discussion. Normally, I would view this report as inappropriate without at least some warning, but AKS.9955 holds the autopatrolled right and the new page reviewer right. They should know the COI rules by now - and yet have, on multiple occasions, failed to disclose a potential conflict of interest. This issue first came to my attention in the second AfD for IndiaOne Air, when @Ratnahastin: commented that they suspected a COI. For the sake of this discussion, AKS.9955 has posted a picture of themself to Wikipedia, their full name (Arun Kumar Singh), and links to several of their social media accounts. I will only be posting links to social media accounts and news stories they have linked to on-Wiki, or webpages they very publicly linked to from a webpage they control and also linked to on-Wiki.

As stated on their own userpage, editor AKS.9955 can also be found on Twitter [2] and Instagram.[3]. The Instagram account's bio also links to a LinkedIn account- [4]. (The rest of the Instagram account is private- the LinkedIn thing is the only piece of information we get from it)

In the bio of the linked Twitter account, AKS.9955 self-identified as the CEO of IndiaOne Air. This appears to be confirmed by this news source, which AKS.9955 added to the IndiaOne Air article. Despite being so forthcoming about their identify, AKS.9955 has not been transparent about their potential for having a COI. They did not disclose their COI when creating the article in 2022. They did not disclose their COI in the initial AFD, again in 2022. In the initial AFD, they were one of the only two keep votes. The other keep vote, however, was made "per AKS.9955". They also have not disclosed during the current AfD discussion, despite Ratnahastin pointing out the potential COI in their nominating statement. However, in a response to a question about sourcing posed by @CNMall41, AKS.9955 did sum up the AfD by saying "the real question is, does the airline exist and has scheduled flights OR the effort here is to just delete the article????" (emphasis original).

Arun Kumar Singh has not been the CEO of the airline since late 2023. AKS.9955 has confirmed this onWiki, but failed to provide a source. Not directly relevant, but noting it down for timeline purposes.

Additionally, On AKS.9955's LinkedIn account (one of the non-private posts [5]), they self-identify as having a management role in TezJet. This appears to be confirmed by a news article- I can provide a link if needed. AKS.9955 created the TezJet article in 2019 and has continued to edit it until now. They did not disclose their connection to the company when they made the article, or any any point when they edited it. The article did not go through NPP either, because AK.9955 holds the autopatrolled right.

I've done some more digging, and I believe they have a COI or potential COI with many aviation articles - either because they have worked for them, or they work for a competitor. (For an example of their editing the article of a potential competitor, they voted delete in this AfD last year. (The AfD discussed Fly91, a regional airline in India - they don't currently fly the same routes as IndiaOne Air, but the potential COI should have still been disclosed). I am seeking further input on this matter to figure out exactly which areas they should not be editing. I'm not an expert in our COI guidelines- but it doesn't take an expert to figure out that the community needs to set some very firm boundaries when it comes to AKS.9955 and their editing of airline articles, and creating articles on businesses they own(ed) without proper disclosure. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 23:47, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this report,AKS.9955 has autopatrolled right since 2015. They have been creating articles on airline related topics since then [6]. All of them will have to be checked for potential COI, meanwhile it might be worth revoking the right as they have clearly abused it. Ratnahastin (talk) 01:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I was pinged regarding the AfD which I have no comment on. However, based on the information provided by GreenLipstickLesbian, there appears to be a clear COI with AKS.9955. As the user has failed to disclose their COI with IndiaOne Air, I will assume that there are other aviation related pages they have a COI with that they have also failed to disclose. Would love to hear feedback from @AKS.9955: though. --CNMall41 (talk) 02:29, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for flagging this @GreenLipstickLesbian:. This is indeed concerning that an airline CEO has been editing pages related to themselves and their competitors. I'm not sure if their autopatrolled rights can be removed yet, as we still need to assess whether the articles they created meet WP:N. However, their NPR rights should definitely be revoked now since they were granted in 2016, and I haven't seen them used. I’m also interested in hearing their thoughts on this report. --— Saqib (talk I contribs) 11:46, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

• Guys, this is the talked about Arun Kumar Singh, and yes, I have been CEO for several airlines in South Asia for a very long time. Contributing in Wikiepdia was my hobby (thousand of edits and hundreds of pages created), that I continued to do despite my busy schedule. All these James Bonds getting a high after pointing out a COI, can anyone tell me one single "wrong / paid" update that was done? I think Wikipedia has reached a point where it is no longer possible to contribute constructively without some sore losers sitting in their basements and preaching the world how things work. Can some admin delete my entire account altogether? I have no desires to contribute anymore to this website, which is fast becoming a cartel of "know it all". Let me find the place where I can request my account deletion. Do whatever the hell you guys want to with the pages; it does not change the business and real life at all. Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 05:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• Update: Requested for deleting my account here. Good luck. Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk) 05:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

"James Bonds getting a high"... "sore losers sitting in their basements and preaching the world how things work" — Such remarks against other editors are absolutely unacceptable, I would advice you to retract them or you would be risking stringent sanctions. Ratnahastin (talk) 07:32, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

• I've removed all advanced rights/tools. See log for details. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
• I took a look at the most recent creation by AKS.9955, which is Sky FRU. It was created last month with three references, one of which was to an "About Us" page and the other two were to websites that did not provide significant coverage of the subject to meet WP:GNG at the very least. That isn't the content standard expected of a "clean" article and as such I have unreviewed that page to let someone else at NPP evaluate it for notability. Haven't examined the other article creations but might look later. I think removal of autopatrolled and NPR was the right call here. Fathoms Below (talk) 01:27, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
• I kind of went just a little maverick, and closed the AFD procedurally, and moved the article to Draft space at Draft:Sky FRU. You can't move an article at AFD to Draft space, per policy, so this solved that issue. Likely, that would have been the outcome anyway. They exist, there is a reasonable expectation that they will get notable in due time, but they lack the sources to stay in mainspace now (fails wp:corp/wp:gng), so we incubate them. If any admin thinks I've overstepped and decides to revert, I understand and won't argue, but this seemed to be the logical way to handle it. Just put a note on my talk page. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 08:30, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  Probably for the best- given what just happened with the creator, it is unlikely that anybody would have put the effort in to find any more-hidden sources to prove the subject notable (if it even currently is). But this way, if anybody does want to do that in the future, they won't have to battle a pre-existing delete consensus. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 08:37, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

  I think it would have ended to drafity, else I wouldn't have done that, but the stigma of a previous AFD wouldn't have helped. And on paper, it is a perfectly legitimate draft that fits the criteria for drafts. The author of the AFD thanked me for the edit, so I'm guessing they agreed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 10:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

User:עידו כ.ש.

All the entries he created involved in conflict of interest and probably paid. Please check also his disclosure and contributions in Commons.

• Article name (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• username (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Replace this with a brief explanation of the situation. 2A0D:6FC7:33B:81FA:678:5634:1232:5476 (talk) 18:20, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Have you notified them? Can you explain what the actual problems are and list some examples? See WP:DIFF. What interaction have you had? Have you ever edited using another username/IP address? Polygnotus (talk) 18:30, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Hello,

I have never had edited on any other IP or username other than this. I do sometimes upload articles under payment, tho not most of the time, and I always disclose those I do via a template on the talk page after such payment has been received, per Wikipedia’s rules. Most of my paid articles were on Hebrew Wikipedia, and out of the articles I’ve edited that are currently on English Wikipedia only Aleph Farms was paid. If the article about Barack Rosen is the one who raised suspicions, I’m happy to confirm that I was not paid to create it.

I’m here for any additional questions :)

עידו כ.ש. (talk) 19:44, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

It looks to me as if everything is probably in order here.

The user has only ever created one article (Barak Rosen). That article has a significant problem in that large portions of the text are entirely without sourcing, but that does not seem to be something that an experienced UPE would have allowed to happen.

User, would you be able to add sourcing to the various elements where it is currently missing (as per WP:V)?

That article does not seem to me to be particularly promotional.

The user has already declared a paid COI in relation to a different article (Aleph Farms). If they had a COI in relation to the Rosen article then it seems reasonable to assume it would also have been declared.

Looking at the user's edit history back to the start of this year they appear to be a normal unconflicted user (except where declared on their user page). Axad12 (talk) 03:40, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for understanding. I’ll start to work on adding the sources per WP:V. I don’t have much experience on English Wikipedia rules but I’ll do my best based on reading and what I know from Hebrew Wikipedia. עידו כ.ש. (talk) 13:12, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

User: DavidRJD

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Nexperia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• DavidRJD (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Discussion

This self-declared WP:SPA with an existing COI with Nexperia has started making edits directly to Nexperia after the same edit requests were declined on Talk:Nexperia. This took place after repeated warnings on their talk page and past discussion here. - Amigao (talk) 19:32, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:AGF. @Amigao It seems you have a pattern of asserting WP:COI without declaring that you have a COI. -- even after you have repeatedly had your account suspended. Please declare your WP:COI. You've made 49 edits today alone, taking a particular political stance -- either you never sleep according to the time stamps, or you are violating WP as you are using a shared account. DavidRJD (talk) 19:51, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

either you never sleep according to the time stamps, or you are violating WP as you are using a shared account

I don't think you're reading Amigao's contributions log correctly. I see 9-12 hour breaks each day in their editing. (Also, your reply is a deflection, not a response.) Schazjmd (talk) 20:01, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

If you spend 14 hours a day editing content that reflects a political viewpoint, you are WP:COI.

At most, there is a 9-hour break, with some days no break. @Amigao is even making simultaneous edits to articles with edits made to multiple articles almost simultaneously. @Amigao is either the fastest editor known to man (making 80+ substantive changes a day) or part of a pool. I'm going to look more closely at the logs, but on Oct, 21st there were an astounding 81 edits made, almost exclusively to Asian topics. DavidRJD (talk) 20:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

While trying to avoid WP:OUTING, there is off-wiki evidence of the user's direct connection to Nexperia, which they have been consistently evasive about disclosing. DoubleCross (‡) 20:08, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I met the threshold and was honest in disclosure. You may not like it, but my answer was deemed sufficient by my mentor. Does WP:AGF only apply when you agree with a viewpoint? DavidRJD (talk) 20:59, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I met the threshold and was honest in disclosure

Assuming that the off-wiki evidence in question is correct (and it appears to be) - then no, no you most certainly did not and were not. DoubleCross (‡) 21:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Given that this is said user's second time on this noticeboard for this same COI issue, it now appears to be a WP:IDHT and WP:NOTHERE issue. - Amigao (talk) 22:22, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@Amigao Please declare your WP:COI. DavidRJD (talk) 22:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

If, as in this case, a user has edit warred over a particular element of an article, has then been asked to declare COI and made a COI edit request, and then ignores the negative result of the COI edit request and returns to edit warring, there must be a reasonable argument for them to be blocked from directly editing the article.

Worth noting also that the same situation has played itself out at the article for Wingtech, owners of Nexperia, where the user also made a COI edit request a month ago and has today decided to resume edit warring in mainspace despite the edit request not having been answered.

In that regard I had previously [7] notified the user that the COI edit process will take as long as it takes and you must wait for it to run its course, it isn't a question of waiting a certain amount of time and then implementing the changes yourself. So they were aware that pursuing this course of action was wrong.

Also, when the user previously edited in relation to the unresolved COI edit request I requested that they [8] Stop editing the article directly [while the edit request is outstanding]. Any further abuse of this point (on either this article or Nexperia) and I will ask an admin to block you.

My impression is that the user is an WP:SPA specifically on the very narrow topic of whether these companies are Chinese state-owned. Axad12 (talk) 02:59, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

"State owned" is not "publicly traded". There are are dozens of cites from WP:RS, but the focus seems to be to maliciously label. 2600:1700:2B0:197F:C4C7:31DD:D520:6C95 (talk) 13:54, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Declaring a COI doesn’t give someone free rein to edit however they wish. As noted above and on their TP, DavidRJD clearly violating our P&Gs and is engaging in what could be considered WP:DE so it may be best for them to block from editing pages where they have a COI, such as Nexperia and Wingtech. --— Saqib (talk I contribs) 12:41, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Edits were made citing WP:RS. I would urge anyone to look at the edits. @Amigao edits do not conform to the conditions and instructions in the P&G, particular on the ownership side.

I'd be far more concerned with people with a clear COI who don't declare it editing pages with free rein. 2600:1700:2B0:197F:C4C7:31DD:D520:6C95 (talk) 13:47, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry are you David RJD editing while logged out or a sock or meat puppet account posting in this thread in an attempt to give support? I assume from the reference above to "state owned" that it is one or the other.

At the end of the day, one of the edit requests was turned down and the other one is still awaiting a decision, and David RJD started to edit war on them again after being warned not to do so. I really can't see how that is anything other than disruptive editing. That's all the more the case when there seem to be suggestions (which I've not looked into) that a full disclosure of COI has not been made.

When I deal with COI edit requests a common theme is companies who want to remove reference to Chinese, Russian or Israeli ownership. I take no side on the broader questions involved there, but those are sensitive political/reputational issues which need to be approved by an independent editor before being implemented to check that what is claimed is correct. Axad12 (talk) 13:59, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

When you start your message with "meat puppet" you are taking a side. 2600:1700:2B0:197F:C4C7:31DD:D520:6C95 (talk) 14:09, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

No, I am not. Your IP address geolocates to Dallas, Texas, where Nexperia have their US operations. Are you DavidRJD? If so, edit while logged in. Axad12 (talk) 14:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

User has now been indefinitely blocked by Star Mississippi. IP range blocked by ToBeFree. Axad12 (talk) 04:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Smatprt (undisclosed paid editing, long term PR editing)

• Pacific Repertory Theatre (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (page created by Smartprt where they have a significant authorship share in stats)

Possible covert promo edit

• Golden Bough Playhouse (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (owned by Pacific Repertory)
• Theatre of the Golden Bough (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (owned by Pacific Repertory)
• Forest Theater (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (the building at which pacific Repertory is a tenant)
• Stephen Moorer (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (related to Pac Rep)

and related suspicious edits such as this

and this peculiar Special:Diff/916975478 by WP:SPA

• Carmel-by-the-Sea, California (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Pacific Repertory related edits made in early 2010s
• Smatprt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I became suspicious and checked the contribution history after I learned they were responsible for a lot of advertorial puff contents inserted into Carmel-by-the-Sea over a decade ago. I realized the account has been resurrected from sleeper status and making edits in the same subject area. Private evidence of positive COI and UPE submitted to paid-en-wp@wikipedia.org already about COI with Theatre of the Golden Bough's owner institution. Graywalls (talk) 14:34, 24 October 2024 (UTC) @Star Mississippi and Drmies:, I think they might be collaborating with you know who... or a slight chance of socking.. could you check? Graywalls (talk) 14:39, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

• Graywalls, I suggest you add this to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Smatprt/Archive. Geolocation makes it possible, but that is not a good enough piece of evidence. I could not base a CU block on any other technical data. Lots of people live there and any investigation will have to go by way of behavior and/or other information. Drmies (talk) 14:57, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
  • @Drmies:, do I start a new one, or am I supposed to add it into that case somehow? If the latter, I don't know how to do it. Graywalls (talk) 15:01, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
    • You can go to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations and type in Smat's name, then follow the instructions. Go have a look and think about what evidence you would like to present. Drmies (talk) 15:19, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not a CU and unfortunately do not have the bandwidth to dig right now, but endorse @Drmies' suggestion of an SPI. Let me know how I can help though. Also, ugh (issue, not you @Graywalls) Star Mississippi 16:35, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

SMATPRT here. Happy to answer any questions. As you can see from my history, I am only one person, and I am not a puppet for anyone else. As you can also see, I used to edit a variety of articles, mostly theatre related, or on the history of Carmel-by-the-Sea. After the great and ugly Wikipedia Shakespeare Wars, I soured on editing and have only continued on non-Sheakespeare articles infrequently. I was recently alerted that two significant Carmel History articles had been absorbed into a related article and then deleted and/or redirected, which is what I restored, since as I recall from Wiki policies, deleting unique pages and incorporating summery versions into a related article is not the Wiki way. Kinda the opposite, right? But it's been a while...

Anyhow - thanks for letting me respond. 50.213.42.61 (talk) 21:09, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

To ensure the authenticity of the response, please always correspond while signed-in rather replying later and saying it was you from your account. Graywalls (talk) 22:38, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Signing in so you know it's me :-). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smatprt (talk • contribs) 21:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

@Smatprt:, Although I don't want to make baseless accusations, the combination of your editing pattern, specifically the articles you edit and the evidence available off Wiki is strongly indicating you're doing paid editing. Paid editing does not mean there has to be a line item payment "for editing Wikipedia". I can not reveal the exact evidence, because policy strictly prohibits me from doing so publicly, but the relevant evidence has been emailed to the contact designated by Wikipedia. Graywalls (talk) 21:38, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

• The off-wiki evidence is clear as a bell. Without a shadow of a doubt this is a COI/UPE editor, and for a long time. Won't post the evidence or links here because OUT. I'm not sure if what I found is different than the OP's findings, but if needed, I can send it in. Netherzone (talk) 21:58, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Netherzone:, check this out. Graywalls (talk) 23:52, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  I know there is a backlog at paid-en-wp, but I'm wondering about what was sent. I'm finding so much evidence off-wiki online, and also on Commons. Do you think I should send in a summary to paid-en-wp of what I've found to see if there can be some action on this? I'm surprised an admin hasn't blocked them yet, since the undisclosed paid editing and promotion has been going on for years and years. Netherzone (talk) 00:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Netherzone:, Nothing much. Just something you would see right out the window in plain sight, but can not say by name per WP:OUTING. Wouldn't hurt to send what you've got though. Graywalls (talk) 00:19, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Smatprt, thank you for your contributions. Could you please tell us if you have a Conflict of Interest with any of these articles, Pacific Repertory Theatre, Golden Bough Playhouse, Theatre of the Golden Bough, Forest Theater, Stephen Moorer? You have mentioned that you don't have a financial stake in the topics you edit,[9] but I am wondering if you have any other type of COI connection to the subjects of these articles? Netherzone (talk) 03:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. I would be curious to see the evidence of paid editing because in looking at Smatprt's editing history I am not at all convinced that this is a paid editing account. What I see is an editor who is a Shakespeare buff with a particular interest in the Shakespeare authorship question. This is a natural pairing with an interest in the Carmel Shakespeare Festival and the Pacific Repertory Theatre (PRC) which runs the Carmel festival which has drawn national attention in the press and in academic journals related to American theatre and Shakespeare. The PRC has participated in scholarship in the Shakespeare authorship area; enough so that its director (Stephen Moorer) was given an award for his work by an academic society at Concordia University (a respected Canadian university) and the Shakespeare Oxford Society (an academic society that largely publishes on Shakespeare authorship issues) held its annual national convention in Carmel one year to correspond with the festival's unique programming. Anybody who is into Shakespeare scholarship as a passion could reasonably have the editing history that I am seeing from Smatprt. And if the editor happens to live in California they could be just taking an interest in a notable topic area in their local area. There's nothing wrong with that. Best.4meter4 (talk) 02:23, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  In fairness, I think I'd rather hear it from the user themselves. They were asked upthread whether or not they have a conflict of interest (on 24/10 and 31/10, and also on their talk page). The responses provided thus far seem evasive.

  The question that needs to be resolved is as follows, as per the request at the talkpage, here [10]

  Please indicate the nature of personal/professional relationship with the organizations/buildings/facilities in Carmel-by-the-Sea you have been editing on off and on for over a decade.

  The off-wiki evidence is perfectly clear in relation to the nature of the user's quite blatant conflict of interest. Axad12 (talk) 06:52, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• Commment. Like 4meter4, I would like to see the evidence. Is this a case of an editor's COI/paid editing, or is this a misguided vendetta against that editor? -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:52, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  It cannot be provided here without WP:OUTING, however it is easily located. Axad12 (talk) 07:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  Ssilvers and 4meter4, just a brief courtesy note to ask if you were able to satisfy yourselves as to the nature of the CoI under discussion here and to determine that this thread is very much not part of a misguided vendetta against the editor (who is not simply a Shakespeare buff with a particular interest in the Shakespeare authorship question)? Axad12 (talk) 17:16, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  No, I have no idea where to look. Moreover, even if it was COI or paid editing, I don't understand why good content that is properly referenced should be deleted. This appears to be some kind of hysteria. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  Regarding where to look, why not have a try?

  Regarding deletion, I think you are conflating two entirely separate issues.

  You seem to have made a number of bad faith allegations recently, e.g. here [11], and the comment re: misguided vendetta above and now the allegation of some kind of hysteria.

  Could these comments and your apparent disinclination to consider the possibility of CoI be at all related to the fact that you're the largest single contributor to the article on Stephen Moorer (where you've made no fewer than 71 edits)? Axad12 (talk) 20:13, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  Also, whatever is going on here [12]?

  And here [13] with further accusations of a vendetta and of threatening and badgering Axad12 (talk) 20:24, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  Furthermore, why is 4meter4 claiming at the Pacific Repertory Theatre article that the coi issues have been appropriately dealt with and solved? It doesn't seem very clear how a reasonable editor could have read this thread and arrived at that conclusion. Axad12 (talk) 20:35, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Axad12 I said that after adding more than 50 new references to the article, and checking the citations to the sources currently in the article. I spent many many hours sifting through sources in JSTOR, PROQUEST, EBSCOE, etc. I think after having read the literature and adding content and checking for verifiability, I could make an assessment on the state of the article. As it is, I am stepping away from it and have removed the article from my watchlist. This is too contentious of a topic area for my mental health. Please leave me out of this going forward.4meter4 (talk) 23:35, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

When I asked you to provide WP:THREESOURCES, it was simply a request for cooperation, which you're not required to honor, but it certainly frustrates others when doing so would help others realize notability and move along. Please also see the essay WP:AMOUNT. If what's needed is a 4 carat center stone diamond, five hundred 0.01 carat pieces won't be an acceptable substitute. You talk about how many sources, but not really about the DEPTH of coverage. It's extremely time consuming for other editors to have to sift through all those sources. When put together with your unwillingness to name the few sources that anchors down the notability, it can be seen as stalling the process. Graywalls (talk) 02:11, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@Graywalls You are now bringing this up again at a noticeboard discussion at which I am not the focus. This is now feeling like WP:HOUNDING; particularly after I already expressed my need to withdraw over experiencing mental distress due to conflict at the PRT article in my comment here and on the PRT talkpage. I already requested that you allow me to depart from dialoguing with you further on this issue multiple times. Please leave me alone.4meter4 (talk) 02:22, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

• I do not think I have acted in bad faith. As I have said before, if the content and sources regarding these arts organizations and related people are good, they should not be deleted. As for Stephen Moorer, I have had an interest in Shakespeare and regional theatre since joining Wikipedia in 2006, and so I have come across his WP article several times. I tried to improve it whenever I did (mostly in 2009). I see that someone recently deleted much of the content from the article, even though some of it is referenced acceptably. As for searching, I did do a search for "Smatprt" but did not see anything. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Ssilvers If we're talking about the Stephen Moorer Wikipedia article, can you confirm that you participated in the original deletion discussion concerning that article?

  And while I get where you're coming from - smatprt has certainy experienced some harassment from socks in the past - this is not a deletion discussion. This discussion is purely about determining whether or not Smatprt has a COI and whether they are likely to have engaged in undisclosed paid editing. Let's not get distracted by other issues here. This appears to be some kind of hysteria is not a very productive statement. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 20:57, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• GreenLipstickLesbian, I do not remember. I am getting the feeling that this had something to do with the old Shakespeare Authorship Question war, but frankly I don't remember. If all this is about is whether he had a COI, I did misunderstand and apologize. I thought this had to do with all the deletions and AfDs people are making to all the articles he worked on. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:04, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Ssilvers, you are not being truthful nor are you AGF of those who disagree with you. You have stated that those who disagree with you all the deletions and AfDs people are making to all the articles he [Smatprt] worked on? Are you sure you mean all? You made a similar accusations to an admin, like this: They are on a vendetta to delete everything the COI person wrote and this they are threatening to delete or merge out three certainly notable arts organizations[14] to an admin when neither of these statements are true, there is no vendetta to delete everything, nor have there been threats to delete. Why did you make that accusation? You have also implied some sort of conspiratorial accusation on this very thread is this a misguided vendetta against that editor?. You have lied about me and assumed bad faith Netherzone is obviously very invested in deleting any and all material connected with Carmel [15] when I have done no such thing as trying to delete all material connected with Carmel, California. You are completely out of line. Please calm down, stop exaggerating and making things up and take a breather. Netherzone (talk) 23:54, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

• Question @Smatprt:, I have two questions for you. In 2016, you added that Stephen Moorer has two sisters: "Jacqui Hope Moorer" and "Catherine Hudson". You also added where they lived. You did not provide a source. I've looked for one, and the only place I can find this information is the Stephen Moorer Wikipedia page/mirrors of the Wikipedia page. What was your source for this information?

Similarly, in 2009, you uploaded this image. Could you please explain how you happen to possess the copyright for it? You said in the author field that I (Smatprt (talk)) created this work entirely by myself. Could you explain how exactly you created it?

That being said, even the now-off en-Wiki evidence is compelling. Couldn't you have just used edit requests? GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 09:13, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

@GreenLipstickLesbian They also added the full date of birth on the BLP article Stephen Moorer in this edit without providing any source, which is also hint of Off-wiki relationship, such as potential use of non-published documents held by someone related to the article subject. Graywalls (talk) 15:18, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

In an effort to bring this thread back on track, I note that on 24th October Smatprt said that they are Happy to answer any questions [16].

That being the case, can I suggest that all outstanding issues in this thread will be resolved by a straightforward answer from Smatprt on the issue of what degree of association there is between, on the one hand, user Smatprt and, on the other hand, Stephen Moorer and the Pacific Repertory Theatre.

If the user is unprepared to answer that question then it seems to me that some form of admin action needs to be taken based on the easily accessible off-wiki evidence confirming the nature of the relationship.

In the meantime I wonder if many of the recent additions to the thread (e.g. from here [17] to here [18]) might be collapsed, as the two users involved seem to have inadvertently derailed the thread into a content discussion which has no bearing on the central issue. Axad12 (talk) 03:35, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Some of this have started brewing over at Talk:Forest_Theater#COI. @GreenC:, perhaps you wouldn't mind discussing the matter here regarding Smatprt. Graywalls (talk) 15:48, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

--> Well some here say it's obvious, but I have no idea how to look. From the context of the above discussion, I can make a reasonable guess. I would be more concerned about professional sock farms. COI and UPE exists all over Wikipedia it's a question of triage, how serious is it. The serious problems are dark money politics, PR firms, ideology think tanks, etc.. a small arts organizations is low hanging fruit mostly harmless and IMO a waste of time. I feel the same about Henderson for the most part: the harm level was very low, the removal of some article topics and content was unnecessarily damaging, and the time sink is/was high.

--> To give an example, I found a Republican political think tank had subtly molded the public perception of a Democratic think tank Media Matters for America that for over a decade cause massive harm to this organization after their biased description got picked up by international media echoed 100s of times around the world. I had to RfC change because some operatives were watching and blocking attempts.

--> Another example, Graywalls knows about, is that priest who used Wikipedia for self-promotion for over a decade, and to influence the media and clerks at the Supreme Court (USA) by injecting leading and false information into the news cycle.

--> When this forum gets involved in serious social problems let me know, happy to help, but it's hard to get outraged about a small arts community writing a theater history mostly concerning dead people, it's largely a harmless distraction from the limited resources available ie. the expert attention of people who care. -- GreenC 17:01, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

COI is a serious problem wherever it is found. Low hanging fruit does not get a free pass and identifying such users is not a waste of time. If you have no interest though, feel free not to participate. Axad12 (talk) 17:06, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I would like "not to participate" any further in this discussion. Please, everyone, stop pinging me. I feel llke Dorothy, realizing that I can just click my heels together. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:26, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@GreenC:, You chose to engage in the article talk page questioning the COI tag and supporting evidence behind it. There's no leeway reserved allowing "small arts community may engage un undisclosed paid editing or public relations editing". Procedurally, COI/N is the proper place for such things to be discussed in details. I guess I don't understand why you get involved and question the tag if it's not that important to you. Graywalls (talk) 18:20, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Forest Theater was already on my watchlist, because you and some others had previously brought it to my attention, on that deeply obscure category talk page, whose stated intention was to form a group of editors to delete all the Henderson articles. I exposed it as unambiguous canvassing, after which everyone left to carry on in places unknown. -- GreenC 19:45, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that treating COI as triage vs comprehensive is that when it does come time to deal with major violators countless editors will point to our lack of action on the ones you say don't matter as proof that the community condones this sort of thing in general. Once you start making exceptions for the groups you don't think are a real threat it makes room for other people to make exceptions for groups they don't think are a real threat but you think are. I think that these sorts of things are in fact a real threat, even when its a small arts group and not a megacorp. Honestly especially when its a small arts group and not a megacorp because its more likely to avoid scrutiny due to the nature of the topic areas. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:39, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not like a choice of triage vs comprehensive, the COI problem is so endemic anything you do is at best triage. -- GreenC 19:47, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on the analogy then? I don't see how a triage approach results in us not treating this particular case of malignant cancer (there are no gunshot patients or anything like that, look around you... This noticeboard is the OR). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:53, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not about not treating. But is it cancer? Using the triage analogy, this noticeboard is the ER where patients show up (as new talk page sections). The participants here are nurses and doctors, some more expert and committed than others. There is investigations into what the source of the problem is, immediate actions (banner tags), longer term treatments like editing articles. My point is he patients are not equally important. Some have COVID and risk infecting the community. Some have a bruised knee. Most COI is banal and not very significant and easily fixed without major surgery. I'd like to see this forum respect the WP:PRESERVE policy more and be conscious of the natural human trait to exact revenge/punishment on the perps by way of deletion. Because it's self-defeating to remove good content that might be addressed with a lighter less invasive touch. -- GreenC 20:45, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

This thread is not a thread about article content. Please take content discussion to the relevant article talk page. It is also not a location for shooting the breeze on how you think COI should be dealt with and whether or not you think COI is a serious problem. Axad12 (talk) 20:56, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

This is clearly about article content, we're discussing this particular case and you can't discuss COI without discussing specific content (how would such a discussion even work?). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:29, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Can we keep philosophical conversations about the purpose of COI/N to the talk pages? Thank you so much.

And @GreenC - if you want to discuss content, may I advise the article talk pages? And if you'd like evidence- smatprt has self-disclosed their real life name and identity on enWikipedia in the past. They have a conflict of interest. They clearly don't want their irl identity to be tied to their username onWiki, so out of respect for a fellow human being, I'm not linking it. But they have a very obvious financial incentive to edit certain pages in a positive light, and the way they are hiding that, refusing to disclose in the modern day, and not use things such as edit requests, is alarming and dragging this out a lot longer than it needs to. Other editor's insistence of trying to relive old CTOPs and turn this into a deletion discussion are also not helping. GreenLipstickLesbian (talk) 21:04, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

What is before us doesn't appear banal, not very significant, and easily fixed without major surgery. It appears to be the most pressing case facing us at the moment unless you know of others and are keeping them secret for some reason. There is no higher priority on the table. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@GreenC:, I guess I don't see why you turn a blind eye on obvious undisclosed paid editing or organization controlled accounts and don't flinch one bit, but become upset about hat note. Why does the hat note bother you? Organizations controlling page is an existential threat to the very purpose of Wikipedia. Graywalls (talk) 03:03, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

UPE and COI Promo, whatever the scale, is contrary to two of the fundamental principles of Wikipedia, WP:5P1: Wikipedia is not a soapbox, an advertising platform, a social network, a vanity press, an experiment in anarchy or democracy, an indiscriminate collection of information, nor a web directory. It is not a dictionary, a newspaper, nor a collection of source documents although some fellow Wikimedia projects are. And, it is often the case that COI/UPE goes against WP:5P2; which can be observed with some regularity at NPP or AfC: We strive for articles with an impartial tone that document and explain major points of view, giving due weight for their prominence. We avoid advocacy, and we characterize information and issues rather than debate them. In some areas there may be just one well-recognized point of view; in others we describe multiple points of view, presenting each accurately and in context rather than as "the truth" or "the best view". All articles must strive for verifiable accuracy with citations based on reliable sources, especially when the topic is controversial or is about a living person. Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong on Wikipedia. Netherzone (talk) 19:42, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

And when PR editing distorts the backbone of the article, whatever that builds upon it is inherently crooked. Public relations editing of Wikipedia is an existential threat to the encyclopaedia Graywalls (talk) 03:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

121Fam

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• 121Fam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Promotional editor who continues to move articles into the mainspace, objecting to draftication and often winding up deleted. I would like to assume good faith, but looking at the access dates of the creations, it is possible UPE in my opinion. I have asked the user four times to explain why access dates vary (and are often way earlier) than when they are added, but only received one response (which was "found at the source page"). I asked the user again yesterday (5th time now) and still received no response despite them editing after my request (which is the same editing pattern with the access dates). CNMall41 (talk) 18:09, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

This area is heavily affected by sock and UPE and looking at 121Fam's edits, I suspect they might be involved in similar activity. They're either creating articles on non-notable Indian TV series or editing ones that have been previously heavily edited by sock farms such as Deewani and Draft:Dangal Oriya. Sometimes, they seem to be repeatedly moving drafts to the main NS to avoid AFC review such as Draft:Gudiya Rani (TV series). I suggest that @121Fam: refrain from moving drafts to the main NS and instead seek approval through AFC. Also, there're suspicions about them being a sock of Entertainment4Reality. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 09:19, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the suspicion. The main purpose of this thread is to elicit a response from @121Fam: who, despite being notified of this thread, still refuses to address the issue.--CNMall41 (talk) 03:53, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

User 121Fam blocked indefinitely by Floquenbeam. Axad12 (talk) 04:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ranjha Family

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Chaudhry Ikramullah Ranjha (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Fazal Ahmed Ranjha (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Altaf Ahmad Ranjha (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Chaudhry Shahnawaz Ranjha (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Chaudhry Ikramullah Ranjha (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Draft:Ranjha family (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Mandi News (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This newly created user has created articles for almost the entire Ranjha family within a few days. I have put COI warning on there talk page but I have my suspicions that this could be paid editing. Wikibear47 (talk) 07:34, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I tend to agree. Further potentially relevant background here [19] and here [20].

When users begin to become very animated about their articles not (yet) showing up on Google searches and treating it as a matter of great urgency I always wonder why.

In the latter of those 2 links the user is asked for their connection to one of the article subjects, without response.

Note also, in the second link, Why isnt article Chaudhry_Ikramullah_Ranjha been displayed on the main page as we search it through internet mediums. My emphasis on 'we'. The implication would appear to be either that the account is a WP:SHAREDACCOUNT or that 'we' refers to the creator and the subject being in direct contact after both conducting Google searches. Or, perhaps, both scenarios apply and the account is directly linked to the subject.

A Google search for 'Mandi News' and 'Ranjha' seems to produce quite a lot of results but I am unable to discern the significance. Is 'Mandi News' an organisation of some kind? Axad12 (talk) 09:00, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Ranjha family is mainly from Mandi Bahauddin District. I think Mandi News could also be from the same area/city. Wikibear47 (talk) 09:07, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

See Mandi Bahauddin District#Notable People Wikibear47 (talk) 09:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Axad12,

Thank you for your thoughtful questions regarding the visibility of the article on Chaudhry Ikramullah Ranjha and the implications surrounding the account. I appreciate your diligence in examining these points.

Regarding the article's visibility on search engines, it's possible that the page hasn’t yet gained enough traction or backlinks to appear prominently in search results. This can happen with newly created articles as they gradually become indexed and recognized by search engines.

As for the suggestion that my account may be a shared account or linked to the subject, I want to clarify that my contributions are made independently, and my goal is to provide unbiased, well-researched content. I understand how it might appear otherwise, especially given the timing of edits or the focus on related topics.

To address your question about "Mandi News," it is a username I’ve chosen for my contributions here on Wikipedia. It does not represent any formal organization, but rather my personal initiative to engage with and improve articles.

I truly value your input, and I’m committed to maintaining transparency in all my contributions. If there are specific concerns or further questions, I’m more than willing to discuss them.

Thank you for your engagement on this matter!

Best,  

Mandi News Mandi News (talk) 10:22, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

• • Subject: Clarification on Article Contributions**

Hello [Wikibear47],

Thank you for bringing your concerns to my attention. I genuinely appreciate your vigilance in maintaining the integrity of Wikipedia.

I understand that the creation of multiple articles about the Ranjha family in a short timeframe can raise suspicions, particularly regarding potential conflict of interest or paid editing. I want to assure you that my intentions are purely to contribute meaningful and well-sourced information to the community.

To address your concerns, here are a few points:

1. **Neutrality and Sourcing**: Each article I’ve created is based on reliable, verifiable sources, and I strive to ensure that the content remains neutral and factual. I’m committed to following Wikipedia’s guidelines on neutrality and verifiability.

2. **Open to Feedback**: I welcome any specific feedback or suggestions you have regarding the articles. If there are areas you believe need improvement or additional sourcing, I would be more than happy to work on those collaboratively.

3. **Transparency**: I am fully aware of Wikipedia’s policies on conflict of interest and paid editing. If there are particular aspects of my edits that raise red flags, please point them out, and I will address them promptly.

4. **Collaborative Spirit**: I value the Wikipedia community and am eager to engage with other editors to ensure that these articles meet the high standards expected. If you or any other editors would like to discuss the content further, I’m open to that dialogue.

Thank you for your understanding and for your dedication to Wikipedia. I hope we can work together to enhance these articles for the benefit of all users.

Best regards,  

[Mandi News]

---

Feel free to adjust any parts to match your style! Mandi News (talk) 09:44, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm, gpt.zero currently seems to be down but the response above appears to be 100% AI generated. See for example the final line (re: adjust the style) and the fact that the text includes commitments to transparency without actually addressing whether a CoI exists.

I can only say that it seems very odd for an SPA to be creating multiple articles for members of the same family, plus working on a draft article for the family as a whole. In the absence of any response from the user when previously directly questioned on whether they have any links to the family, it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that some link does indeed exist.

I do note, however, that one of the sources in the article for Chaudhry Shahnawaz Ranjha seems to include very negative coverage, e.g. As per ACE sources, MNA Mohsin Shahnawaz Ranjah, his brother Hasan Ranjah and their father Shahnawaz Ranjah are accused of causing millions of rupees loss to the exchequer by evading property transfer fees. On the face of it, it doesn't seem clear why an outright pro-Ranjha account would have chosen to link to such a story, even if it is being used to support a claim in our article that the subject has a great influence in Sargodha politics. Axad12 (talk) 09:51, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Of course, the apparent contradiction directly above might be resolved by the idea that the article was created to some extent by AI (which it seems abundantly clear that the user has employed in this thread - see also the fact that the 'to' and 'from' names in that post apparently had to be populated). Axad12 (talk) 09:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Axad12,

Thank you for your thoughtful feedback regarding the Ranjha articles. I appreciate your diligence in ensuring our content meets Wikipedia’s standards.

I’d like to clarify that the articles are based on reliable sources that provide a well-rounded view of the subjects. While I understand the concerns about potential conflicts of interest, I assure you that I have approached this work with a commitment to neutrality and thorough research. The inclusion of various perspectives, including any critical coverage, is essential to presenting an accurate portrayal.

Regarding the articles’ content, they reflect established facts about the family's political influence in Sargodha, supported by credible sources. If there are specific claims you find questionable, I’m open to discussing them further and providing additional sources if needed.

I believe that with transparency and open dialogue, we can collaboratively ensure that these articles are comprehensive and balanced. If you have any suggestions on how to strengthen the content or address concerns, I’m all ears!

Thanks again for your engagement on this. I’m confident that with our combined efforts, we can produce quality articles that serve the Wikipedia community well.

Best,  

[Mandi News] Mandi News (talk) 10:10, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Axad12,

I appreciate your keen observations regarding the potential use of AI in drafting the article. You raise valid points about the importance of clarity and authenticity in our contributions.

While I have utilized AI tools for generating ideas and organizing content, I want to emphasize that the final article is thoroughly reviewed and based on credible sources. My intention is to enhance the writing process, not to compromise the integrity of the information presented.

If there are specific elements that seem inconsistent or unclear, I’m more than happy to address them directly. Ensuring that our articles are accurate and well-supported is my top priority, and I value your input in achieving that goal.

Thank you for your continued engagement on this matter. Let’s work together to ensure we maintain the high standards of quality and transparency that Wikipedia is known for.

Best,  

Mandi News Mandi News (talk) 10:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Hey Axad12,

I appreciate your insights on the Ranjha articles. It’s important we maintain the integrity of our work, especially when it comes to potential conflicts of interest. I understand your concerns about the SPA creating multiple articles for the same family without clear communication about any connections.

That said, I think it’s worth considering the importance of thorough documentation and multiple perspectives in these articles. If the contributor has focused on presenting the family's influence in Sargodha politics, it would be beneficial to include the negative coverage as well. This balance would help ensure the articles are fair and well-rounded.

I believe that reaching out to the contributor again to clarify their ties to the family could be very helpful. Transparency is crucial, and I’m confident that once they respond, any lingering suspicions can be put to rest. If they can confirm their neutrality and acknowledge the importance of including diverse viewpoints, it would strengthen the case for publishing the articles.

Let’s continue this discussion and work together to ensure that our articles reflect the full story while maintaining Wikipedia’s standards.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

Best,  

[Mandi News] Mandi News (talk) 10:03, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Mandi News, can I suggest that you refrain from further lengthy AI generated responses which do not address the central point, which is the existence of any link to the Ranjha family. For you to have instead responded saying I believe that reaching out to the contributor again to clarify their ties to the family could be very helpful. Transparency is crucial, and I’m confident that once they respond, any lingering suspicions can be put to rest would appear to be gibberish in this context as you yourself are the contributor whose CoI is in question. Axad12 (talk) 10:08, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Axad12,

Thank you for your feedback. I appreciate your directness and understand the importance of addressing the core issue regarding any links to the Ranjha family.

I realize my previous response may not have adequately addressed your concerns, and I apologize for that. It’s essential for us to have clear communication, especially when it comes to potential conflicts of interest. I assure you that my goal is to maintain transparency and uphold Wikipedia’s standards.

If you believe it would be more effective for someone else to reach out to clarify these ties, I’m open to suggestions. I want to ensure we’re all on the same page and that the articles reflect an unbiased view.

Thank you for your patience, and I look forward to working together to resolve this matter constructively.

Best,  

Mandi News Mandi News (talk) 10:13, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not convinced that the situation here is going to be improved by the further generation of AI responses (which thus far do not seem to have advanced the conversation in any meaningful way). Axad12 (talk) 10:15, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Dear Axad12,

Thank you for your inquiry regarding the visibility of the article on Chaudhry Ikramullah Ranjha and the implications surrounding my account, "Mandi News."

Regarding your question about the article’s appearance on search engines, it is common for newly created articles to take time to gain visibility and ranking. Various factors, including backlinks and search engine indexing, can influence how prominently an article appears in search results.

Concerning your suggestion of a potential shared account or direct connection to the subject, I want to clarify that my contributions are made independently, with a focus on adhering to Wikipedia's guidelines for neutrality and reliability. I understand how the context might raise questions, and I appreciate your attention to detail.

As for "Mandi News," it is simply my username on Wikipedia and does not represent any organization. My aim is to contribute to the platform by improving articles based on credible sources and thorough research.

I value your insights and am committed to ensuring transparency in my contributions. If there are any further questions or specific concerns you would like to discuss, please feel free to reach out.

Thank you for your engagement.

Best regards,  

Mandi News Mandi News (talk) 10:24, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Mandi News If you are unable to communicate with us without using an AI, you should probably edit a verson of Wikipedia that is in a language with which you are more familiar. We want to talk with you, not an AI. 331dot (talk) 10:23, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi 331dot,

I appreciate your feedback and understand the concerns regarding the authenticity of my contributions. I want to assure you that I am not using AI to communicate or edit articles. My goal is to engage meaningfully with the community and contribute to Wikipedia to the best of my ability.

I value the collaborative nature of Wikipedia and want to be a part of that. If my writing style has caused any confusion, I’m open to suggestions for improvement. I’m here to learn and grow within the community, and I welcome any guidance on how to communicate more effectively.

Thank you for your understanding, and I look forward to working together!

Best,  

Mandi News Mandi News (talk) 10:32, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi, if you genuinely wanted to to engage meaningfully with the community then I'd suggest that at some point over your previous 8 lengthy contributions you would have addressed the central issue of this thread. The fact that you have not done so does little to support the idea that you are not using AI. Axad12 (talk) 10:45, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Axad12,

Thank you for your feedback. I understand your concerns about my previous contributions not addressing the central issues clearly, and I appreciate your patience as I work through this.

I want to assure you that my goal is to engage genuinely with the community. If my responses have come across as lengthy or unclear, I will strive to be more concise and focused moving forward. I’m committed to ensuring that our discussions remain constructive and directly relevant to the topics at hand.

If there are specific points you believe need addressing, please let me know, and I’ll do my best to clarify. I truly value your input and want to contribute positively to our shared work on Wikipedia.

Thank you for your understanding.

Best,  

Mandi News Mandi News (talk) 10:49, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi, what I was hoping for was that you would address the central issue rather than getting AI to write a response to apologise for not having done so. You've already used AI to say that you aren't using AI, so further communication is apparently pointless. Axad12 (talk) 11:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

@Axad12 looks like @Mandi News is using AI to hide the fact that they are unable to answer genuine concerns raised by the community and are just wasting everyone's time. Wikibear47 (talk) 11:36, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Quite so. Plausible COI concerns, demonstrable WP:CIR issues and a time waster. See also here [21] for more of the same. Axad12 (talk) 11:50, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I've now blocked the user. 331dot (talk) 12:43, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

They've now decided to create socks. Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mandi News. --— Saqib (talk I contribs) 14:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

It seems the end user is rather persistent and had previously been blocked on 25th Sept, 2nd Oct and 22nd Oct. Well done to those who have been removing the user's creations via Speedy Deletion criteria WP:G5. Axad12 (talk) 18:37, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Stuart_Campbell_(blogger)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Stuart Campbell (blogger) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

A new account presumably registered to subject of article has changed section headings twice and removed direct quotes from his Facebook account. User was given a COI notice prior by another editor. I restored the section heading an first sentence of the paragraph as the wording aligns better with the third party sources, but I did not restore the quotes, as they were lacking any 3rd-party sourcing. Seeking additional input. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 18:19, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I am, openly, the subject of the article, and was forced to create an account to address defamatory and plainly malicious recent edits. Quotes have been attributed to me which were demonstrably written by other people - namely Graham Linehan - and a highly incomplete account of a court case involving me added/edited in order to create a false impression of homophobia. The false accusation was also made, without proper sourcing, that I "oppose transgender rights", which I do not. I greatly dislike being made to edit my own entry in this manner, but do not see any other option given the failure of other editors to properly defend it against partisan smears. Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk) 00:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The Graham Linehan quote misattribution was a bona fide stupid mistake on my part. It is gone from the page, and I have apologised on the user's talk page.

The broader COI issue predates my addition of that passage, though (as a quick glance at the page history will confirm). AntiDionysius (talk) 02:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Yet you continue to attempt to force the inclusion of an obviously deliberately incomplete and misleading account of my "Views on LGBTQ+ issues", which you refuse to justify. If the court case is the evidence of these supposed views, it is strikingly obviously inaccurate to selectively remove the judges' extremely pertinent comments on that matter. Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk) 07:27, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Your views seem pretty clear to me. OXYLYPSE (talk) 08:03, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Do they? How very fascinating. Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk) 08:04, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Gender and politics are both extremely messy topics to delve into. Each person's view of what is right and wrong is unique after all, and quite frankly, mixing the two together creates a recipe for disaster regardless of who's on what side. My recommendation would be for you to find comments or blog posts you have made in the past that back up your "history of supporting and promoting equal rights, including gay rights", and also do the same for content you've made that others would (easily or otherwise) interpret as attacks or opposition to transgender rights and such.

From my personal assessment of this situation, I reckon the best case scenario is the addition of something along the lines of "Campbell has since clarified his position on gender identity... XYZ", and with a sufficient neutral source that backs up the statement. If you can prove it and write it neutrally, then it can be added. You've come onto Wikipedia trying to make a point, nothing wrong with that, but now you have to prove yourself with sources and citations. It's just how things are here. Sirocco745 (talk) 08:32, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I did not come here to "make a point", I came here to correct a deliberate attempt to mislead and smear. As to a "sufficient[ly?] neutral source": the judges' findings and comments, made after three days of hearing evidence presented by senior experienced counsel in a court of law, provide easily the most comprehensive and impartial assessment possible of my views on the subject, which were the entire subject matter of the case in question.

I provided a link to the complete appeal judgement so that people could see the full context, as well as including the most relevant quotes to illustrate the key facts.

When placed next to the professionally-neutral, solemn, detailed and legally-binding assessment of several of Scotland's most senior law lords, the personal grudges of some random jealous and embittered minor blogger would appear to any reasonable observer to carry zero weight. Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk) 08:40, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

For more detail, I would suggest you examine both the original judge's findings as highlighted and linked here https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-severed-baby/, and the appeal court's findings as highlighted and linked here: https://wingsoverscotland.com/of-no-materiality/

I trust that you will agree both that judges are a neutral source, and that their findings with regard to my support for equal rights are unequivocal. Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk) 09:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, it's certainly an interesting read, especially considering I'm an Australian on the other side of the world who's view of Scotland has primarily been that of bagpipes and Demoman from Team Fortress 2. Jokes aside, I don't really have much to say about this. It looks solid at face value as a court statement, but it certainly doesn't help that gender stuff is the area you chose to make an insult with and that text makes it incredibly difficult for many people to tell if you're being sarcastic, serious, or derogatory. I don't know much about the politics over in Scotland, but it looks to me like Kezia Dugdale did what any politician does: find a hill to die on and find some ammunition to use against her opponent, regardless of its quality.

Look on the bright side, at least you're not ScoMo who had 5 years of relentless jokes about him because he allegedly shat himself at a McDonalds before that finally got cleared up. If your position is genuine, then there's a good chance an independent reliable source agrees with you on it. Secondary sources always trump primary sources in terms of reference quality on Wikipedia because it's not the subject talking about themselves, it's someone else stating their assessment of the subject. Everyone has a bias, and even Wikipedia itself has been found left leaning, but that's where community consensus comes in.

If you really want to continue defending your position, I recommend you read up on a few of the big important Wikipedia editing policies so you can familiarize yourself with "why are my edits being reverted?" A good one to start with is WP:NPOV and the WP:WEIGHT subheading. Sirocco745 (talk) 09:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, but I know fine how Wikipedia works, and why (Personal attack removed) There is a very limited amount of time I'm willing to spend on it, but wished to be seen to have at least tried. Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk) 10:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

This user has made a potential legal threat at this link. I have reverted it. GSK (talk • edits) 01:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, if this was an AN/I case it would have already ended with an administrative action. Am I not allowed to ask for someone to block the user in question from the article (not the talk page) until the user can understand what is the issue here and what isn't? ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 07:30, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I made no legal threat. Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk) 07:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

You said "Kindly desist from making defamatory edits to the entry about me or I will take whatever actions are available to me"; I can see why someone would think that was a legal threat, though it probably doesn't quite cross the line. 331dot (talk) 08:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Re-upping and endorsing the request for a pageblock as the user continues to edit in defiance of clear lack of consensus for their changes and despite their COI. AntiDionysius (talk) 22:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

And given they have said they "know fine how Wikipedia works" they should know that to restore changes reverted by three different users is disruptive. AntiDionysius (talk) 22:46, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

If you wish to debate your proposed edits, kindly do so on the Talk page like you're supposed to. You cannot simply keep ignoring the arguments and reverting the malicious and inaccurate sections. Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk) 23:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Would suggest also that the extremely unsavoury comments about fellow editors above, especially when read in the context of talk of "debate" and "arguments" over edits as opposed to consensus-building suggest something of a WP:BATTLEGROUND problem. AntiDionysius (talk) 23:13, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

This user is devoting an enormous amount of time to complaining and attempting to lock the page in a vandalised state rather than making any effort to discuss the matter. I have repeatedly made calm and reasoned arguments on the article Talk page and elsewhere, as per proper procedure, which this editor steadfastly ignores and refuses to engage with, instead merely edit-warring and reverting the malicious and inaccurate edits. Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk) 23:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Reverend Stuart Campbell, You should worry less about whether others are following 'proper procedure' and focus on following it yourself. Edit warring against multiple other editors is not the proper procedure, and it is putting you on a path to being blocked entirely. No one wants that to happen, but you have to work with others and not against them. MrOllie (talk) 23:29, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

"Edit warring against multiple other editors is not the proper procedure"

No, it is not. I have followed proper procedure by attempting to resolve the issues on the appropriate Talk pages. These other editors have not, and have repeatedly simply reverted edits with no attempt at discussion or consensus, which is contrary to the rules. It is most peculiar that you therefore direct this criticism at me, rather than them. Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk) 23:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

They're not new here, they know what is expected of them. You are still getting benefit of the doubt - but if you insist you know the rules as well as anyone, do not be surprised when they are enforced in the usual way. MrOllie (talk) 23:48, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

If they know what is expected of them, then it is surely all the worse that they are failing to do it. Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk) 23:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Despite claiming to "know fine how Wikipedia works" and stating we're all "gangs of friendless losers living in their mothers' basements", this user continues to edit pages they have a conflict with - now blanking sourced sections from the article on their blog.

If a page block is enforced, it should be for Wings Over Scotland also. OXYLYPSE (talk) 22:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I am fully entitled under Wikipedia rules to edit the page to remove a material inaccuracy. Despite being described as "Comments made by Campbell on the blog in 2012", the comments referred to DID NOT APPEAR ON WINGS OVER SCOTLAND AT ANY TIME and therefore have no business being discussed in the Wings Over Scotland entry, as I noted when removing the section. This was a material inaccuracy and removing it is entirely proper and permitted. We can of course resolve this easily - all you need do is produce a link to those comments on Wings Over Scotland and I will withdraw my objection to their inclusion happily. Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk) 23:10, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I have p-blocked @Reverend Stuart Campbell from the article. He retains access to the Talk page and all other pages. @Reverend Stuart Campbell, I see from @OXYLYPSE that there have been problems with your edits to other pages. Please do not test the limits or yourblock will be broader. Star Mississippi 01:53, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed)

Thank you for confirmation. Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk) 02:08, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm starting to consider reaching for WP:ANI as partial blocks seems ineffective against this case. A COIN and 3RR thread with several lengthy talk page discussions are enough of a timesink. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 02:18, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The personal attacks and continued accusations of bad faith are a problem, and post page-block the user seems to be indicating that they're not really interested in trying to work towards a consensus. AntiDionysius (talk) 02:20, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Accusing you of bad faith is like accusing Hitler of anti-semitism. It might not be nice, but it's true. Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk) 02:22, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I left a note at the COIN thread, @AlphaBetaGamma. I'm not going to extend the block as I'm about to log off, but have zero objection to one being implemented. Star Mississippi 02:26, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Got it. AIV filed, probably will nac this later because I'm sure this wouldn't be affected by my coi on this incident. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 02:30, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

::::this edit is nothing but a obvious threat openly claiming you're ready to perform off-wiki actions against Wikipedia volunteers. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 07:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)Looks like the link is pointing to the wrong version

I do wish more people would focus more on the quality of our content. My analysis of this situation has been brief, curtailed even. I see: "Campbell has been outspoken about his opposition to transgender rights" in our article and this is followed by a reference which says nothing of the sort. No one should be restoring such a poorly referenced statement, especially in a BLP. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 23:39, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for taking some degree of interest in the actual facts of the matter. Would that other editors were so conscientious. Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk) 23:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

There are multiple references, and one of them certainly says that - it says it in much stronger language than "outspoken about his opposition", too. But I don't want to get too mired in the substantive content discussion here at COIN. AntiDionysius (talk) 23:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

You don't want to participate in substantive content discussion at all. You still have not done so on the article's Talk page, which is the proper forum, despite having been requested to do so repeatedly for over 24 hours. I request once again that you do so, as per proper procedure. Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk) 23:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Reverend Stuart Campbell (talk · contribs) was blocked by ToBeFree. --— Saqib (talk I contribs) 12:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  The third noticeboard this was on :) I came there from AIV. Thanks for the ping ~ ToBeFree (talk) 21:27, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Snowleopardman

I'm not sure if this is the right place, but User:Snowleopardman/sandbox seems suspect given the subject's nickname and the user's name. SilverTiger12 (talk) 23:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

@SilverTiger12: It is too soon to raise this here. At the top of this page, the instructions say: "This page should only be used when ordinary talk page discussion has been attempted and failed to resolve the issue, such as when an editor has repeatedly added problematic material over an extended period." This editor has two total edits, and no discussion about their problematic sandbox content was ever started, beyond the automated speedy deletion notices. I left a {{uw-coi}} notice for them, and that might be enough to get them to stop posting self-promotional content. --Drm310 🍁 (talk) 22:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Rgstudio and article: Robert Gober

• Robert Gober (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Rgstudio (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

User Rgstudio has made a wide range of edits to the Robert Gober article, beginning in 2008. It appears that the account may be the subject of the article or a representative of Gober. I left a message on the user's talk page notifying them of COI guidelines, but they made several rounds of additional unsourced edits after I flagged the COI rules. 19h00s (talk) 15:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@19h00s, I agree with you that the likelihood of a COI is about 99.9%. Gober is a great artist, however his studio assistant or intern should not be directly editing the article if they work for Gober. @Rgstudio, I can help update the article (within reason) if you make edit requests on the article talk page. This is in keeping with Wikipedia's guidelines for COI editors. See WP:COI and for the Edit Request Wizard see: WP:Edit request wizard for more information. If you are paid or receiving in-kind compensation (for example for an academic or job-training internship), you must disclose this information on your user page, otherwise you would be an undisclosed paid editor which is not permitted, for information on how to disclose see: Paid editor disclosure. Netherzone (talk) 15:26, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Now they're copy-pasting text from books on Gober into the article (with references to Amazon links), even after your ping. @Rgstudio, please acknowledge that you've seen the multiple points of contact about your edits on Robert Gober. 19h00s (talk) 16:51, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I've reverted to the last good version prior to today's edits by the apparent COI user. Hopefully that will at least lead them to try a different approach. Axad12 (talk) 17:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

My apologies, but I was not seeing your edits. I do work with the artist and was correcting mistakes that others have put on his Wikipedia page. I was also adding information that was missing regarding his exhibitions and curated shows including links to the websites. I will undo my edits and read to better understand what I am allowed to change. I don't want incorrect and incomplete information out there, so I hope there is a way I can make edits. Rgstudio (talk) 17:30, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

I misunderstood the COI information that says "However, our policy on matters relating to living people allows very obvious errors to be fixed quickly, including by the subject." I thought that meant that I as Robert Gober's longtime archivist could log on and change errors, I didn't understand that I need to contact the Edit request wizard to make changes. I will do that now. Sorry that I was not receiving notifications of your messages to me. I only saw them now when I searched for them trying to figure out why my edits were being removed. Rgstudio (talk) 17:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

No worries at all, thank you for reverting the edits and engaging with us on this! Totally understand what you're aiming to do in terms of removing incorrect/outdated info and adding additional details about notable exhibitions and events Gober has participated in. As Netherzone explained above, there are multiple ways to go about adding or changing content on pages with which you have a COI - one of the easiest ways is to communicate with artist-interested editors like Netherzone (who offered above to assist on this), who can help you add well-sourced information that you otherwise would be warned against adding because of the Conflict of Interest. You're also welcome to use the edit request wizard to request changes. But I totally understand that you didn't see the notifications, and you definitely weren't trying to change anything controversial, so I think you're all good to move forward requesting changes via the official channels. Thanks for looping back around on this! 19h00s (talk) 17:38, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

@Rgstudio, if you submit an edit request and I don't see it for a while, ping me on my user talk page which is located here: User talk:Netherzone, or by clicking on the word, "talk" after my name. Netherzone (talk) 18:21, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Danko Nikolić

• Adaptive system (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Dankonikolic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

There has been a number of edits on the subject of "practopoiesis" and "ideasthesia", which are terms coined by Danko Nikolić, and which (as far as I can tell) aren't widely used. "See also" sections all over the wiki have been sprinkled with links to "practopoiesis", which redirects to a section of the Adaptive system article. Same with "ideasthesia". Here they link to the websites of two of his businesses. The account was warned as early as 2014 about their self-promotion. Also I'm not entirely sure what constitutes sockpuppetry or evidence thereof, but this seems like it might be a fairly clear-cut case? Silenuss (talk) 11:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi, the main account has only made 1 edit since 2018 (and that was in 2022), and then there are the 2 IP address edits from earlier this year. It seems highly plausible that the IP edits may relate to the same end user, but I wouldn't consider it to be sockpuppetry to make 2 logged out edits such a long time after the main account was last used.

However, that still leaves the issue of self-promotion and whether there is any tidy up that needs to be done. I see you have removed the recent IP additions, is there anything else to be done in that regard?

Interestingly, the previous occasion when this user was brought to this noticeboard was here [22] back in 2015. Back then the user seems to have been able to summon the support of three quite blatant meatpuppets, but that is all ancient history now. Axad12 (talk) 11:57, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm thinking about removing all the "practopoiesis" links from the "See also" sections. There's no point linking to a section that doesn't exist anymore. I'll also get rid of the redirect. It's a little less clear what else I could/should do here, so I'd appreciate advice on how this sort of thing is usually handled. Silenuss (talk) 06:08, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Sadly, it’s quite common for academics to be involved in citing their own works in a promotional way. The relevant policies (WP:SELFCITE and WP:CITESPAM) are rather brief and they don’t specify what action is to be taken. Some users take the approach that the individual edits should be taken on their merits, others take the view that they should all be removed. All agree that such edits should have been done via the COI edit request process. In practical terms the action to be taken will depend on how much tidy up users are prepared to undertake.

The degree of the self-promotion in this case is quite extreme. It goes well beyond self-citing and the user had previously been warned about using Wikipedia for self-promotion. Indeed they received a 24 hour block [23].

Comments by the user leave no room for doubt that they have been involved in a promotional campaign, for example:

you are right that there is my own interest involved: to promote ideasthesia. This is not deniable [24]

and Yes, I understand that this link promotes my work. But also isn't that in some way the goal of Wikipedia?

Of course, the goal of Wikipedia is very much not to promote academics or their work, as per WP:PROMO, so feel free to remove, revert, etc. to your heart’s content.

On the broader topic of people who self-cite, it's probably a good rule of thumb that if no one apart from the author could be bothered to install a reference then no one apart from the author is going to be troubled by its removal. After all, non-COI inclusion only requires the existence of one non-conflicted human being somewhere in the world who feels that the material warrants inclusion. That is a very low bar indeed. Axad12 (talk) 08:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Also worth noting that the user's article on Practopoiesis was deleted after discussion at AfD here [25] for obvious reasons. Other users may wish to consider whether the article on Scaled Correlation, by the same author (and sourced almost solely to one of his own works) warrants a similar response. Axad12 (talk) 08:41, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Artists Repertory Theatre

• Artists Repertory Theatre (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

This article is essentially being controlled by the organization. There are numerous WP:SPA single purpose accounts being used, but it's quite obvious that the organization itself is literally curating the article. Needs to be pared down, possibly re-done from scratch so that it's not written around the way the organization wants to present it. Graywalls (talk) 05:05, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Graywalls, I think you should mention some active editors who you believe have a COI with this article. I’ve checked the history and most of the accounts accused of COI are stale. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 07:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

There aren't any active ones. Read through the edit history. They use a fresh burner account with each series of edits. Look in the talk page tag. I think those only represents some of them. It's obvious, because they make no other edits. Graywalls (talk) 07:40, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Graywalls, I believe the article should be semi-protected for at least a year. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 07:47, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@Saqib:, also see TheatreWorks (Silicon Valley). I see it. Do you see the pattern too in the edit history? PR editing is glaringly obvious. Graywalls (talk) 08:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

It looks to me as though there is potentially a great deal of WP:COPYVIO in the Artists Repertory Theatre article from material on their own website (specifically the 'Organisation History' section, here [26]). That ought to allow a large amount of material to be stripped out immediately. Axad12 (talk) 16:08, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Further examination indicates that a large proportion of the text has been lifted directly from the sources indicated in the text. Typically a sentence ends with a reference from where that sentence has been lifted. I'm happy to go through the whole article later today, compare it to the sources and strip out all the copyvio, but isn't there an easier way to do this (e.g. with Earwig?). Axad12 (talk) 16:43, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I've now removed all WP:COPYVIO material from the article, but I am having trouble applying the copyvio template to request revdel. Could somebody more familiar with that template/process do the honours? Axad12 (talk) 18:58, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Revdel now requested at WP:CP. Axad12 (talk) 02:48, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Axad12, Thank you for your efforts on this. Why don't you install this script? — Saqib (talk I contribs) 08:58, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Simple answer: because I'm borderline computer illiterate and I don't understand it. To be honest, I find that looking into COI issues quite effectively only really requires time, persistence and Google (and I can get by without scripts - whatever they are).

There are some things that I find impossible to do here, like setting up SPIs, but usually if I ask nicely someone else will do that if they are convinced by the evidence I've located.

Apologies if that all sounds a bit Luddite. Everything I've learned here was picked up by looking into how someone else had done the same thing and then copying it (that was how I did the WP:CP referral a few hours ago). I get by okay with that, but if I have any strengths (opinions seem to differ on that point) they lie elsewhere. Axad12 (talk) 09:56, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Don't rely just on Google. Do a "second opinion" with DuckDuckGo, Bing and others as you often uncover additional information not found in Google. Graywalls (talk) 17:33, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Definition of self-published sources

Please see:

• Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#GLAAD & anti-LGBT groups – a discussion about whether we can use certain material about public figures/third-parties, or if the organization's website falls under WP:BLPSPS.
• Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#SPS definition – a discussion about whether an organization's website is really self-published (i.e., written by 'the org' and posted online by 'the org') or if it might be traditionally published (e.g., if it is written by one staff member and posted online by a different staff member).

These discussions could have wide-ranging implications not just for non-profit advocacy groups, but also for political and corporate websites. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:09, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

None of these discussions has any implications for the use of sources: corporate websites are bad sources, just not for the confused reasons you propose. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 08:56, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Actually, corporate websites are excellent sources for some statements because Wikipedia:Primary does not mean bad. If you need to include a statement along the lines of "The company said _____", then the corporate website is a good option for supporting that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:30, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

But, it should be used sparingly. Article should not be a place to voice what the company said. A company announcing it has reached net zero carbon footprint status citing the company, or Churnalism source is undue. Graywalls (talk) 19:38, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

In principle, articles should be mostly WP:Based upon sources that are independent, and sources that are secondary (and ideally sources that unite both qualities and are also high-quality in other respects). That would still leave room for an occasional brief mention of things that seem relevant. For example, if the company is known for an eco-friendly marketing strategy, then adding a sentence saying that "they reported Net-zero emissions in 2022" might not be unreasonable. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:06, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

If it's not discussed by secondary source that is NOT churnalism, I strongly disagree. The article isn't a place to parrot self aggrandizing contents issued by the company PR. As an acceptable use of primary source, if a reliable source announces company intends to close sometime in 2022, then there's a statement on the company's official page that they closed in January 2023, we can use it to cite the closure. For anything that's remotely boastful to the slightest degree, no way. Graywalls (talk) 20:17, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm never sure whether you actually mean secondary source when you say things like that. IMO if you have a notable business and you have an independent source saying something like:

• "The company's detailed plans for environmental stewardship are extensive. The company is embarking on a project that will save the whales, restore the wetlands, and reduce their carbon emissions. All of this ethos is reflected in their plastic-free packaging. Their environmental credibility is the most important factor in their company's marketing strategy. A public commitment to environmentalism has been good for profitability, but an oft-overlooked advantage is reduced risk of liability for ground contamination..."

and a few years later, the company issues a press release (or posts on their website) that they reduced their carbon emissions down to zero, then I've got no problem with the article mentioning their claim. The sources directed our attention to their environmentalism; the net-zero thing is merely an example of what the sources focused on. Simple examples are a good use of WP:PRIMARY sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:31, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Personally I’d say that company websites are an acceptable source for certain basic info such as company location, names of CEO, CFO, etc. and maybe some basic historical details such as date founded.

Beyond that, no, because there is little meaningful difference between (a) how a company presents itself on its own website, and (b) a press release.

I don’t see any merit in the idea that if a company slightly rewords a press release and places it on its own website then somehow it becomes an independent WP:RS compliant source.

Also, the idea that content may become so because it was drafted by one member of staff and placed online by another is fanciful. In many companies the individuals who decide on website content are the same as those who draft press releases. Even if that were not the case, both individuals would have an identical paid conflict of interest. Axad12 (talk) 04:34, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

the idea that if a company slightly rewords a press release and places it on its own website then somehow it becomes an independent WP:RS compliant source. Zero people in any of the discussions taking place have suggested this. (That's why I object to the misleading framing by WAID in their first post in this thread.) 100.36.106.199 (talk) 21:07, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Quite so, I agree with you 100%. Axad12 (talk) 21:13, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Axad, putting their content on their website wouldn't make it independent. Nobody has suggested that. The question is whether it would make it stop being self-published.

There are three qualities that need to be kept completely separated here:

• Is the source independent?
• Is the source primary?
• Is the source self-published?

A press release saying that Bob's Business sold a million widgets last year is non-independent, primary, and self-published.

The same statement, made by the same people, but posted to their website, is IMO still non-independent, primary, and self-published. But a few editors at WT:V are arguing that the content of the website is non-self-published, at least for larger organizations, because probably 2+ different humans were involved in writing and posting it. According to these editors, putting that information on the corporate website makes it non-independent, primary, and non-self-published. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

In that case I agree with you too.

I stand by my earlier comments that (a) the input of more than one individual with the same paid (or unpaid) conflict of interest does not resolve concerns about whether a source is self-published, and (b) it does not seem reasonable to assume the involvement of more than 1 individual.

Others may have a different view but I very much doubt if it would carry much weight at, say, COI edit requests (especially not the COI edit requests that I respond to, where any such argument would be firmly rejected). Axad12 (talk) 05:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that this: the input of more than one individual with the same paid (or unpaid) conflict of interest does not resolve concerns about whether a source is self-published is a nice way of putting it. For example, Girl Genius is a webcomic written, illustrated, and published by a husband and wife. It's two humans, and they have also hired various colorists to help out (and a few of their things have been published in the traditional fashion), but the mere fact that there is more than one human involved doesn't mean that they aren't doing it themselves. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:31, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

User:Eric Schucht

• Comstock's magazine (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

After proposing the article for deletion, user Eric Schucht contested the deletion; in his message, he affirmed himself to be a paid freelancer for the publication in question, which he did not disclose on his user page (despite listing other publications he has worked or freelanced for); additionally, he made unsubstantiated claims about the personal identity of a fellow Wikipedia editor, which violates Wikipedia's harassment policy. Specific to the Conflict of Interest policy, user Eric Schucht did not disclose his COI when he proposed the article for creation and otherwise did not disclose his COI on Wikipedia until the article was proposed for deletion. There is no contest here — Eric Schucht affirmed he is a paid freelancer for the company whose article is in question. He has an obvious Conflict of Interest. TheMediaHistorian (talk) 20:58, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

TheMediaHistorian, OK, look! They’ve disclosed their COI. Now it’s your turn to share yours too, don’t you think? @Eric Schucht: You wrote, Maybe a connected contributor tag should be added to the talk page disclosing that. Why say “maybe” when you’ve got 99% of the article and you’ve already admitted your COI? It’s not a maybe; it definitely should be and you’ve done it yourself before, not me. Also, I can spot some unreliable citations and the content definitely has a promotional tone, as well. Anyway, could you explain why you never disclosed your COI for this particular article? Also, please avoid disclosing the real-life identities of other editors, as it’s considered outing - and you just did that. I’m hoping it was just a mistake. And what exactly led you to call this editor a former disgruntled Comstock's employee, especially since they’ve been on Wikipedia since 2020 and have never touched this page before. We really need to hear your reasoning on that. I’ve added some tags, so I hope you won’t just remove them! — Saqib (talk I contribs) 12:00, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I apologize for the concerns I've raised. A COI tag should have been added. I made the article before I started freelancing for the magazine, and never thought to add it until the issue was raised. I now see that was wrong. As for "unreliable citations and the content definitely has a promotional tone," obviously I want the article to meet Wikipedia standards and to be as good as it can be. Which sources or sentences are you concerned with? I'm happy to delete copy or do a re-write. <redacted> Eric Schucht (talk) 13:09, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, you are potentially revealing the identity of a Wikipedia editor, in violation of Wikipedia's policies. You were warned once before about this, and now you will be reported. TheMediaHistorian (talk) 15:32, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

TheMediaHistorian, Your real-life identity - if it was true - has been redacted, so there's no need to worry. I'm still waiting to hear back from you. You can choose not to respond, but that will count against you. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 18:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

There is nothing to confirm or deny. The user in question originally posted information that included the full name of a purported Wikipedia editor, in violation of Wikipedia's anti-doxing policy. That information can't be confirmed or denied, per Wikipedia's own guidance against publishing comments and/or information that could lead people to uncover the identity of an editor:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Harassment

"If you have accidentally posted anything that might lead to you being outed (including but not limited to inadvertently editing while logged out, which reveals your IP address, and thus, your approximate location), it is important that you act promptly to have the edit(s) oversighted."

and

"If you see an editor post personal information about another person, do not confirm or deny the accuracy of the information. Doing so would give the person posting the information, and anyone else who saw the page, feedback on the accuracy of the material."

What you are asking someone to do here is explicitly discouraged by Wikpedia. Accordingly, there is nothing to "count against," because what you're asking me and others to do is the precise opposite of what Wikipedia itself says we should do.

Last, no one has raised a COI issue involving me. An editor's appeal to hypocrisy in response to a COI issue against them does not rise to the level of a formal COI complaint. Thus, there is nothing for you to investigate on that matter. TheMediaHistorian (talk) 07:28, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Moreover, by posting that they believe the identity to be a "former disgruntled Comstock's employee" is still identifying, given that the Comstock's page in question — which the editor has since affirmed their COI — identifies, or once identified, that very person. So, User: Eric Schucht is still in violation of Wikipedia's harassment policy. TheMediaHistorian (talk) 07:29, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

User:PazSeguro

• Peerspace (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Alto (rideshare) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Tock (company) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• PazSeguro (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

New/newish account. Another editor already warned them about COI and they denied it. Everything about their edit pattern screams PR editing. I'm not convinced. New account. Made 2-3 small edits, and right into creating three new articles on companies within a month of editing all showing signs of flowery language. Graywalls (talk) 17:56, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I have provided a bit more complete response on my talk page Special:Diff/1255660533.

I am not employed by any of the three entities mentioned here but I am unclear if I am conflicted in regard to Tock. I would think I am not but I have provided a bit of transparency in the interest of keeping things above board and receiving feedback on the matter.

I'm also unclear on how many of the items I included are promotional since they reflect what sources say and what I see on other similar articles but I will take a closer look later and welcome constructive improvement. PazSeguro (talk) 01:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Graywalls that the activity here appears to strongly resemble undeclared paid editing. Over the last 24 hrs there has been extensive tidy up at all 3 articles and a further 4 editors have suggested that material (since removed) was promotional or similarly inappropriate.

It seems to me that you've received a lot of excellent advice [27] [28] [29] [30] from Grayfell, the editor who originally tagged these articles as reading like adverts. You should also be able to establish other elements that users have found objectionable by looking at comments left in the article edit histories and at the relevant talk pages. Given the volume of input and advice that you appear to have received thus far it's surprising that you're still claiming above that you're unclear what was promotional about the articles.

It's also surprising to see you claim that the articles only reflect[ed] what sources say, when you've received significant advice on why much of your sourcing was inappropriate and non-independent. It is concerning that you don't seem to be taking on board the input you've received from multiple editors.

I’d suggest that as a bare minimum you should be submitting any future articles through the Articles For Creation process, details of which can be found here [31]. This will allow an experienced editor to check your work for inappropriate tone, inappropriate sourcing, etc. before it is installed in article mainspace and will prevent the need for time consuming community tidy up after the event.

Hopefully this note is of assistance. Axad12 (talk) 04:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Betty Shamieh

• Betty Shamieh (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Rinageorgia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Would appreciate advice on this one. In September, Rinageorgia (talk · contribs) added text to Betty Shamieh taken from Shamieh's publisher's website and from a theatre's website. I removed it and requested revdel, which was done. The user said I got explicit permission from Betty Shamieh to use her descriptions of her plays and her new novel so I asked about conflict of interest. The user responded I do not [work for or represent her], I just reached out to make sure that I was allowed to use the descriptions on her website. The user has now added text to the article about Shamieh which does not all read neutral - "sharp wit", "candid, often humorous perspective", "poignant storytelling". The user has also just replied to my September CoI notice saying I understand and do not have a conflict of interest. Although I would like to assume good faith, this so far single-purpose account is worrying me, so would appreciate other eyes on the article. Thanks. Tacyarg (talk) 20:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Something was clearly very wrong there. I have removed all of the unsourced material from the article, which leaves very little left. If the user wants to add detail to the article then it will need to be neutral and properly sourced. Also, importantly, it cannot be original research (e.g. material along the lines of 'this play explores themes of...').

To be honest, the material that the user added (the first time or the second time) is the sort of thing that would be expected of a professional publicist - and it is presumably not coincidental that the material was added in the run up to the subject releasing their first novel - i.e. see the notice that was placed very prominently at the top of the article Her novel, TOO SOON, will be released by Avid Reader Press/Simon & Schuster in January 2025. Axad12 (talk) 22:23, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Axad12. Yes, that was the feeling I had too. Hoping the user will edit neutrally from now. Tacyarg (talk) 22:26, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Upon further investigation, I see that much of the material I just deleted from the article was WP:COPYVIO from the subject's website (very close paraphrasing rather than direct lifting, but still copyvio).

As you note, the user states I got explicit permission from Betty Shamieh to use her descriptions of her plays and her new novel, which is interesting but if we are just to go on a user's say-so then anyone could directly lift anything from anywhere on the basis that they had received permission.

However, I do think that the issue is academic really because clearly we can't have articles about writers where the writer basically gets to define their own work in considerable detail. That is always going to be entirely inappropriate. Axad12 (talk) 22:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

This one has been happily resolved. The user has clarified in response to Axad12 on their talk page that they do not have a CoI but are an academic working in the field. Axad12 has given them some good advice and they have since made constructive changes to the article. Thanks, all. Tacyarg (talk) 12:02, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

SPX Capital

• SPX Capital (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Amandadomicioli (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Spxcapital2024 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

WP:SPA accounts clearly used to only make promotional/COI edits for this article. One has already been banned. Imcdc Contact 01:37, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The blocked one looks to be for WP:ROLEACCOUNT. Only individuals can have accounts and they can never be shared, so company name accounts aren't allowed. The other name isn't a sock, but appears to be an account made to comply with the name rule. Graywalls (talk) 03:10, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The remaining account made one edit, and I've got it on my watchlist, Graywalls did some good copy editing work on the page. The part that Amandadomicioli was attempting to remove appears to be property sourced. TiggerJay (talk) 07:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I trimmed out things about the contents of speculation since "newspaper said people said... blah blah blah blah blah blah" doesn't comport to NPOV or RS, but we can just say led people to speculate about. The source is in Portuguese, so I translated it using automatic translation in my browser. Someone fluent in both languages may want to look over my work. Graywalls (talk) 14:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Vesan99

• Promomed (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Alexander Vedyakhin (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Saint-Petersburg International Mercantile Exchange (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Russian National Reinsurance Company (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
• Vesan99 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• SBruno (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Ivansychev (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Solod2020 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

First was spotted in 2022. Was not banned, we kept him under observation.

The nature of his activity was such that he would go into an article created by a newly registered account (obviously created to order), check the quality as an experienced participant, and make minor edits.

Last year he was banned by Ле Лой and it was confirmed by local ArbCom in ru:АК:1299. It is small, I'm giving translation in full:

1.1 The arbitrators find it proven that Vesan99 has a conflict of interest and made edits in violation of WP:RSUW and WP:NPOV at least in the articles:

• ru:Фазылов, Бахтиёр Шухратович (Bakhtiyor Fazilov) — advertising: [32], [33];
• ru:Промомед (Promomed) — extensive edits to an article about a pharmaceutical company;
• ru:Кагоцел — complimentary edits to the article about a medical drug with unproven efficacy: [34], [35].

1.2 ArbCom found that participant Vesan99 actively added individual links promoting private companies. See [36], [37], [38], [39] (replacing a link to a site affiliated with the participant) and generally a significant number of articles with a link to this resource.

1.3 In many cases, the defendant acted in a conflict of interest: for example, it was proven that he had the most direct relation to the resource from 1.2.

1.4 The arbitrators became aware of an episode when the defendant removed relevant information from articles about competitors, and then demanded a monetary reward from them for its return.

2. Having studied the contributions of SBruno, YuFedorov, Dnslllrnv, Ivansychev, verification of Solod2020, as well as the actions of the Ioanndemidov account, from which advertising is entered on the same topic, some external data, and having questioned the defendant himself, the Arbitration Committee found his connection with the persons who own these accounts, as well as their cooperation in paid articles, proven. Among other things, their edits are noted in all articles of paragraph 1.1.

3. The defendant had already had his patrol flag removed for spamming his site, and the topic of his spam had already been brought up for discussion, cf. [40] and [41]. When he was given the patrol flag again, the defendant did not mention that he had been removed for spam, using the most evasive wording and significant omissions.

His accomplices are at most not active in en.wiki:
SBruno - not active now, hit some articles 2015-2020
Ivansychev - edited Russian National Reinsurance Company.
Solod2020 was spotted in nomination in created by Wgc120 article TheGenealogist. ( WP:MEAT )

Since Vesan99 doesn't have much of a contribution to the English Wikipedia, I suspect that any edits he made were paid.

Although Vesan99 himself is not active here often, he continues to edit, for example, on Wikidata, and may edit again. I would like to record that the local community agrees with the decision of the Arbcom of another language section and it is possible to put corresponding templates on the articles, so that, perhaps, they will be reworked in the future.·Carn·!? 11:16, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Manx Museum

• Manx Museum
• Special:Contributions/5.253.76.1

Hi, not 100% sure if this is the correct place to report, so please let me know if this should be moved to AIV or the like. Back in May 2024, an IP filled the Manx Museum page with promotional fluff and a charity donation link in this diff here. The edit summary was "All descriptions updated by Manx National Heritage, the site owner.", implying some sort of COI. I'm not sure if this is a static or dynamic IP, so I'd appreciate some help here. Thanks, Sarsenet (talk) 12:07, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

The Manx Museum article has now been reverted by Melcous to a pre-promo version.

Looking at this IP user's edits elsewhere on Wikipedia I'm concerned by the almost entirely unsourced article on the Isle of Man Railway and the entirely unsourced lengthy articles for the Isle of Man Railway Museum and Castletown railway station. These were tagged for requiring further citations 6 years ago, but in the absence of any being forthcoming it must be time for some major pruning.

In fact, looking at the Isle of Man related railway articles that this IP user has contributed to, they seem to be almost entirely unsourced. Similarly Braddan A.F.C., etc., etc. It seems the user has well over 500 edits in total, mostly to Isle of Man related subject matter, and a spot check suggests that the edits were all entirely unsourced.

The user's talk page also seems to have attracted 6 notices over the two years re: their edits (unsourced/own research/unconstructive). None have received a response. How is this issue best dealt with? Axad12 (talk) 12:49, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Some examples of this IP user’s more colourful handiwork…

This company is an entire shambles the CEO Martijn De Lange should hang hs head in shame at being associated with is without doubt the worst delivery company in Europe[42]

UK television personalities Philip Schofield and Holly Willoughby are professional queue jumpers[43]

Salt Bae’s name vandalised. [44]

Further more recent vandalism, altering the name of Optimus (robot) to ‘Murder-bot 9000’ [45] and editing the ‘Purpose’ field to Manslaughter of the Human Race[46]. Plus this [47].

The user (assuming that all the IP edits are by the same end user) claims to be Manx politician Alex Allinson, here [48]. Axad12 (talk) 13:25, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know about the reversion. I also was looking through some of their recent edits- the above-mentioned numerous unsourced edits of Isle of Man Railway Museum- and they're pretty concerning. According to user contribution search, nearly 25% of edits to the railway museum page were made by them. Not inherently bad, but that combined with the previous talk page notices is cause for concern. Sarsenet (talk) 13:47, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm currently looking through the rest of the edits by that IP address, and by it's pre April 2022 predecessor, here [49]. It looks to me as though they have made rather more edits to Isle of Man related political topics than one would like to see from a serving politician.

For example, while Minister for Education, Sport and Culture he appears to have made the following edit to the Culture of the Isle of Man article, directly related to the business of the relevant dept [50]. Also this edit removing negative info on COVID cases [51]. It seems the user was also regularly updating the article on COVID-19 pandemic in the Isle of Man. See also this edit adding spammy links to the article of his current dept [52].

With regards to the edits to railway and museum related articles, Allinson is currently the Minister for Enterprise, which includes tourism. So it would seem he has a very clear conflict of interest on those subjects, especially when editing about them in a promotional way. Axad12 (talk) 14:39, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

To me it looks as if this is a shared IP and the railway, politician and vandalism edits were made by different people. I agree that the railway related content is problematic in terms of WP:OR and WP:NOTWEBHOST but I don't think there is enough to merit a block at this time. I think the main course of action is to remove all of the unsourced content from the railway articles and try to educate them on why they can't add unsourced content to articles. SmartSE (talk) 16:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Re: the three different elements being the work of different people...

There have been a significant number of edits via that IP which relate either to Allinson directly or to departments/topics which he was involved in as a minister at the time that the edits were made - e.g. the 35 updates to the IoM covid article during a period when, according to Google, Allinson (a doctor) was regularly briefing the media on that topic). We know for a fact that someone plausibly claiming to be Allinson operates under this IP and it is reasonable to assume that the Allinson / departmental edits were made by him (or by someone operating on his behalf).

For highly promotional edits to be made to IoM museum articles when Allinson has oversight of tourism is, at best, a rather extreme coincidence.

Also worth noting that the large museum edit [53] was (in it's entirety) a cut-and-paste job from this location [54] and as such was a very significant WP:COPYVIO.

Re: the railway articles, presumably there is a wikiproject dealing with that sort of thing and members there may be best placed to take the articles to a point where they reflect Wikipedia norms. Removing all of the unsourced material immediately would take the articles back to stubs. Axad12 (talk) 17:16, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Actually, it's just occurred to me that perhaps those railway articles don't fall within a specific Wikiproject because the Isle of Man isn't part of the United Kingdom and thus presumably WP:UKRAIL doesn't apply. That may explain how they arrived at their current state. Maybe large scale deletion of the unsourced material is the only option after all... Axad12 (talk) 17:30, 9 November 2024 (UTC)