User talk:Anna Frodesiak/archive10

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Deletion review of Wikipedia logo

Hallo. You may have already seen, but in case you haven't, the result of this deletion review was to keep Wikipedia logo deleted until a userspace draft has been made, in which another deletion review can be open. Since you expressed interest earlier, I'm guessing that you still want to create an article for it, so I guess you can get started with it in your userspace. Best, ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 19:20, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I missed that. Thanks. I will get started. Please feel free to tweak, etc. I will start the draft in User:Anna Frodesiak/Red sandbox. Will it have a See also or "main" to the Wikispace article? My intention is just to have something in the mainspace for visitors. Should it just be a short article? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:10, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure about the link to the Wikispace article. I think that you can add it, and during the next deletion review, it can be discussed. As for it being a short article, I think you worded it very nicely: "a short article in the mainspace containing only sourced content with images of the logo during its evolution." As long as it is adequately sourced, I think it'll be fine. That's the main reason that a redirect to the Wikipedia page was denied. ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 00:35, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Splendid. I'm on it. Thank you kindly. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 00:41, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Re: Award

Thanks very much for the award. It feels great to be part of the small but amazing Gastropod cabal (err team). How do you create these images? On MS Paint? They look very detailed. The cafe on your user page must have taken a lot of effort. -- Ganeshk (talk) 22:46, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

You're very welcome. Yes, I use MS Paint, which is highly sophisticated software. You have to attend a weekend workshop to know what you're doing. My userpage was sinchy. I just add a painting once in a while. A painting only takes about a minute. Regards, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:56, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Ganeshk, make sure you check out her photographs as well. Anna is a fantastic artist. One thing I wish she would do in the future Is redesign the cafe so that the door is in the middle perspective while the paintings adorn the walls on the left and right sides. This would lengthen the image rather than widen it, making it ideal for mobile devices and smaller screens. Viriditas (talk) 03:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Aw, you're too kind. If I put the door in the middle, won't it be off the screen for some? Also, then how could I wear my crown? My photos: Actually, some were sent to me by friends here in Haikou. Now, if I can just figure out why "TALK PAGE" keeps changing places on the door. Hmmm. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:55, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Award for you too

		The Strombus Thinker
		Because you Anna, like Susan and Michal, are always thinking about gastropods, I hereby also present to you this cherished award I've drawn myself (in MS paint as well!). And what do you believe he could possibly be thinking? --Daniel Cavallari (talk) 01:24, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I am a doodler, but you, my friend, are an artist. Beautiful work! Anna Frodesiak (talk) 21:53, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Gastropods in the Signpost

"WikiProject Report" would like to focus on WikiProject Gastropods for a Signpost article to be published in early May. This is an excellent opportunity to draw attention to your efforts and attract new members to the project. Would you be willing to participate in an interview? If so, here are the questions for the interview. Feel free to skip any questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. Also, if you know anyone else who would like to participate in the interview, please share this with them. Have a great day. -Mabeenot (talk) 03:45, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Hello Anna, Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2010-04-26/WikiProject report has been published although it is not May yet. --Snek01 (talk) 21:58, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Overhaul of the Project Page?

Hi Anna, I am very interested indeed in your idea about overhauling the Project Page. I think it is kind of out-of-date and a bit messy looking. I would love to see what you could do in terms of improving it. Currently I do not think it is very inviting. Best, Invertzoo (talk) 18:13, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi Susan. I will do my best. I was thinking of nicer colours -- not too blinding, but less institutional. Formatting for consistency. Maybe some sequencing. I will dump it into User:Anna_Frodesiak/Pink_sandbox. Please feel free to comment on what I am doing. I may not get to it for a while, though. But, I will try to have something in place before the Signpost bit comes out.

Now, more importantly, shouldn't you be underwater right now? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:05, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi again Anna, Thanks for the note! Well I am in the water a fair bit, but most of the time I am crawling on my hands and knees on the beaches/coastline looking for the dead shells of really small rare species, hopefully ones I have not found yet. I did very well in a bay on St. Kitts, finding another 100 species there. On Monday I have an day trip, an expedition to the small Dutch island of Sint Eustatius. Anyway I want to thank you for your suggestions and your impetus to Project Gastropods. Without your urging I think we would taken hugely longer to get all these various current significant improvements.

By the way, I must tell Snek and Ganesh how much I like the new version of the project page. So much cleaner! Were you interested in perhaps adding some color to make it prettier at some point? Invertzoo (talk) 11:15, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

No Problem

Uploading images for you would not be a problem, absolutely! If you need any img uploaded, just let me know. Best wishes! --Daniel Cavallari (talk) 23:22, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Email me and I will have your email and then send you images. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:49, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Anna I'm sorry It took me so long to answer! I'm in a real rush these days. Well, I've e-mailed you from my e-mail account. Ready to upload when you are! Best, --Daniel Cavallari (talk) 14:27, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Re: Uploading images

I will try to help any way I can, however, I'm afraid I am very bad with emailing images. If you send me some, I can try and upload them, but I may not get very far. Regards, --The High Fin Sperm Whale 00:33, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

No problem. Snek and Daniel can help. That should be fine. Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:49, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

funniness

i was just trying to be funny and give my friends a good laugh. i'm only 14

That's okay. But, please try to be a constructive Wikipedian. Also, stay in school and don't trust men in expensive suits. Happy editing. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 19:06, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Welcome

Thank you for the welcome. I went to the guideline and tried to get everything in compliance. I don't have a user page, so I linked to my talk page. Maybe I should try to create one (it's red now). Please let me know how I can help. 21:48, 9 May 2008 (UTC) 20:13, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Just wait...

I noticed that you're actively commenting on the username of User:21:48, 9 May 2008 (UTC). Can you please leave him alone until an admin can get a username block on him? I fear that we're scaring him away...--Unionhawk ^{Talk E-mail} 22:06, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely. There's nothing more that I can do. I was being friendly to encourage him to stay, but persistent in suggesting that he immediately cease using the user name for the reason I wrote at Wikipedia:UAA: "Each edit he makes leaves a trail of confusion in the histories and diffs that will cost many editors in the future 10 seconds of staring at it trying to figure it out."

Just making that edit at Wikipedia:UAA cost me an extra 10 seconds hunting for the right place. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 22:28, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Your rollback of Wikipedia:Introduction

New editors are allowed to test below a certain line on that page, provided they avoid profanity. You should not be reverting there. Best wishes. Immunize (talk) 15:12, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. My mistake. I think I actually warned the user too then reverted a minute later when I figured it out. A thousand pardons. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

No worries. A bot cleans out the test edits every 12 hours anyway. Immunize (talk) 18:20, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

How does Notability work?

{{helpme}} (Note: Cancelling out this 'helpme' as this appears to be a message directed at Anna Frodesiak; I will also try and help the user on their own user talk page.  Chzz  ►  19:30, 4 May 2010 (UTC))

Dear Anna,

I am new to Wikipedia, and I am writing about Ivan Kristoff, a founder of volunteer rescue teams, who has made significant contributions to the world of rescue and highrise safety. He has initiated and completed some of the riskiest demonstrations and test of rope rescue and aerial ropework operations at extreme heights. This includes Preparations for joint operations with Tactical Police Units, Emergency Services [1] and Hostage-rescue demo with Police and Emergency Services [2]

He is famous in Canada and his native country Bulgaria as Spiderman for his way of saving people and trying to make safer the constuction highrise industy and rescue operations for rope access workers. Unfortunately, most of the articles in English are not kept in digital format, because he has left Canada more then five years ago.

Nowadays he is mostly covered in the Bulgarian media, so we were thinking not to enclose them (the article in Cyrilic) in the English version of Wikipedia. For example, we enclose an interview with the former Mayor of the capital Sofia and now Prime Minister of Bulgaria Gen. Boiko Borisov - [3]

This is why we added the Contributions for safer vertical operations:

"Kristoff has found innovative solutions and made safer the vertical and aerial rope access field of work. His experience and know-how of vertical and remote access at extreme conditions and heights, contributed to the development and improvement of safety standards. He has ventured above the limits of conventional ropework practices, create and tested on himself his avant-garde methods, and do anything in good faith to bring humanity a few steps ahead."

Some of his achievments can be found on [4]. We would appreciate if you can help us with your suggestion in doing the right way to eliminate something or enclose additonal prove or inforamation for credibility.

Thank you. Rescuenews (talk) 19:26, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Hello. You wrote "...so we were thinking not to enclose them (the article in Cyrilic) in the English version of Wikipedia..." Is there a an article for him on the Bulgarian Wikipedia?

I commented on your article at Talk:Ivan_Kristoff.

Another editor has replied regarding your question "How does Notability work?" on your talk page. If you need more information, please write to me again. Regards, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 20:22, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Wild honey

Hi! Glad to see you created a new article about the Chinese honey. I'm not sure if it should reside at Wild honey, however. In fact, that name should redirect to Wild Honey, a dab page. The topic of Chinese honey is all over the news right now (there's a major controversy about their export practices) so you should be able to find enough information about Chinese honey production and add it to an article about that topic instead. Viriditas (talk) 04:20, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I thought about the name for a long time, and I know it is not really satisfactory. I'm not clear on what you mean about the dab. What then should the article name be? The reason I ended up going with Wild honey is that it didn't already exist and it is the literal translation from Chinese.

I searched for ages to find the stuff on Chinese sites. The ref is the only link I found. The honey in the news idea came up zilch too. This stuff is little-known here and rare to encounter. There is a guy from a small village who finds on once in a blue moon and sells it on the street. You see it once or twice a year. Please advise. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:32, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Since "wild honey" can refer to several different things, we have a dab page for this purpose: Wild Honey. That name should eventually (no hurry) redirect to it. From what I can tell, your content should be incorporated into the list at monofloral honey. I would recommend running this by the project(s) or other editors first. Viriditas (talk) 04:46, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The dab plan makes sense. I'd hate to see the content lost in monofloral honey (from a Google point of view). Putting into multifloral might make a false claim. Maybe it's from only one flower. I posted images on beekeeping and I think also honey talk pages with no reply. This is dilly of a pickle. What about a freakish name like Asian subterranean wild honey?Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:55, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

What would be great would be to find the species.Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:08, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I believe you can anchor a redirect to the list entry, so it would show up in Google, but I'm still not sure what we are talking about. All we know is that it is crystallized honey, right? Viriditas (talk) 06:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

"...redirect to the list entry, so it would show up in Google..." No idea what that means, but it sounds great. Crystallized honey, made by some kind of bee (there is a hex comb) underground in some parts of China. That's all we know. We can't call the article crystallized honey because that is a kind of honey resulting from a man-made process. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 09:51, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Honey#Bastard_Honey!! Anna Frodesiak (talk) 09:59, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Good find. That makes perfect sense, and starting an article about "bastard honey" would be very interesting, but I can't find a single source on the subject. It might be possible to find something in the specialist literature perhaps. Viriditas (talk) 10:11, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually, since there are major health risks due to ingesting bastard honey (honey could be poisonous) there has to be a significant amount of info on the subject...somewhere. My guess is that we will find it under another name. Viriditas (talk) 10:15, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

There's also honey hunting, of which wild honey is the prize. Viriditas (talk) 10:21, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I will do some digging on bastard honey and check out honey hunting. Please check

• [5]
• [6]
• [7]

The Bastard honey article looks a bit strange but I will try and fix it. Also, I don't know the policy on how much content to leave when

Main article: example

is added to a section. And, I stole a bit of the old content verbatim too. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:32, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

There's no rush to redirect or move. There are more sources about wild honey than there are bastard honey, so the name wasn't necessarily wrong. The thing is, there is a history of "wild honey", and you could write about it, but it isn't localized to just China. But, also keep in mind, when people search for "wild honey" they might be looking for other titles by the same name. So, "bastard honey" is actually a subset of wild honey. I know you are probably going to scream after reading this, but go ahead, I can't hear you. :-) Viriditas (talk) 10:39, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Aaaaaaaaarrrrrgggghhhh. Kidding. You are right about the subset. That makes sense. Let's leave it for a spell. I will dig and see what happens. I will post at Project Insects and see if somebody knows the species. Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:58, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the good work. I added honey hunting to honey's see also, and linked wild honey in the honey hunting article. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I haven't done anything except confuse you! I was looking through Google books and there's a great deal of information about wild honey in the U.S. There was even a Honey War and "professional" wild honey rustlers who devoted their lives to it. Also, it seems that wild honey collection provides some form of income in many parts of the world. Viriditas (talk) 11:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

What does a stroke feel like? Kidding again. Where does that leave us in terms of main articles and redirects? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:23, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure, which is why I wanted to take some time and do some research. I was just reading a few issues of the American Bee Journal from the 19th century on Google Books. I can't get enough of old magazines; There's something incredible about being able to peek into another time and place, and some of the stories are just so funny. Anyway, I have to hit the hay. Viriditas (talk) 11:29, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

No problem. It sounds like status quo is fine for now. Thanks again for the redirects and copyeds. Sleep well. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:32, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank You for reverting the edits that were made to my page. =) --Fumitol (talk) 12:09, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

You are welcome. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:12, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

And Again, a thanks is in order. He/she is quite annoying. --Fumitol (talk) 12:17, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

No problem. And, yes, a nasty vandal. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 12:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

The Grand Lodge of British Freemasons in Germany

Good evening,

I have been trying to keep the above entry on Wikipedia up to date. Certain individuals are attempting to hinder me by replacing what I enter on the page.

I can supply sources and documental proof of my entries.

How can we resolve this please?

Best regards

John KellasJohn Kellas (talk) 20:20, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi John. If the information in the article is incorrect, and unsupported by the sources shown in the reference section, then I suggest removing all but the first sentence or two of the article. Reduce it to only a basic definition and description of the subject. It's not a good idea to blank the page or to replace the text with a statement about the validity of the content. If you add only what is supported and remove all that is not, then nobody can object. Please be sure to add inline citations (references) to support the claims. From there, you and other editors can build the article based on verifiable sources. I also suggest that you state your concerns on the discussion page of the article.

I will keep an eye on things. Ask me if you are unsure how to add references. Please let me know how else I can help. Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 21:34, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Hello Anna.

I am resident in Germany and am a Freemason. Furthermore, I have been a member of a Lodge within the Grand Lodge of British Freemasons in Germany (GL-BFG) for nearly 40 years.

We need to differentiate between what is factual and what are personal opinions.

First of all, the official web-site of the Grand Lodge of British Freemasons in Germany is www.gl-bfg.com and any additional information regarding this organisation can be gained from this web-site, indeed the reference to this web-site is given within the article. The web-site www.glbfg.de is a personal web-site run by John Kellas. If one takes a look at this web-site of his, even the most casual observer would have to agree that the contents can hardly be described as neutral opinion.

In that web-site, this person makes all kinds of accusations, but entirely against persons within the Organisation and not against the Organisation as an entity. Some of these accusations may indeed by factual or supportable by documentation. That is not in dispute. However, not by any stretch of the imagination can this web-site be considered a dispassionate description of the story of the Grand Lodge of British Freemasons in Germany.

The next point to be made, is that this person has been expelled from Freemasonry, a fact that he makes quite publicly on his web-site, although he disputes the validity and/or legality of this action which was taken against him. He may possibly have good grounds to dispute the issue, but whatever the situation, as a consequence of this expulsion it is difficult for him to be referred to as a proper authority on this organisation.

He will no doubt argue that he has also been a mason within GL-BFG for many years and at one time even held an high office (the office he held is called the Junior Grand Warden and is indeed an high position). But if the person does in fact have reason to dispute the legality or validity of anything at all, then he should and undoubtedly it is his right to take the matter up with the relative authorities. But it is not his right to publish his forum publicly in such an august place of reference as Wikipedia.

There may possibly be grounds for the GL-BFG to have need to sort out its internal matters, but this should and must and in the fullness of time will be done from within its own ranks. If this person wishes to continue with his crusade against personal members within that Grand Lodge by using his web-site, then let him do so and let him face any consequences. But he should not be permitted to make the kind outbursts he does express in Wikipedia. Wikipedia should be considered a factual encyclopaedia, similar for example to Chambers or Britannica and therefore the kinds of outbursts he has been making, must be avoided and indeed condemned.

I have no doubts now that he will argue against these points, trying to assure and/or reassure that he has absolute proofs and documents etc. supporting any claims, references or accusations he may have and I as I have stated earlier, it could well be that some, indeed many of these points may be founded on facts - I am really not trying to dispute that. But I am trying to make sure that any articles published in Wikipedia on this Grand Lodge, are in some way considered to be neutral and acceptable.

Coronatum Veritas (talk) 14:37, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

With due respect to both of you, I am only concerned with the content of the article.

John Kellas' site must be considered a questionable source. However, the only sources currently used to support the article are two Freemason websites, which must also be considered questionable sources. "If no reliable third-party sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it."

I will remove the bulk of the article, leaving the first sentence stating that the organization exists. I suggest that you build the article by adding content that is properly cited from reliable, third-party sources.

If you have any further comments on this matter, please use the article's talk page. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 17:14, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Excellent! Thanks very much! This is almost exactly what I asked the arbitration panel to undertake, although there I asked for the entire subject to be deleted and I still feel that deletion should be the final situation, it will stop all the nonsense!

Please keep tabs on the subject and if any doubtful entries appear, delete them immediately!

Coronatum Veritas (talk) 17:32, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I will keep an eye on the article. I have commented further on article's talk page. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 17:49, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I have also commented on the article's discussion page

Coronatum Veritas (talk) 13:33, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

That weird "underground honey"

Psst! Hey kid, want to buy a bridge? How about an elevator pass?

Hi Anna, I have been wondering a lot about that supposed underground honey. It looks suspicious to me, as if the disk was made by people and then covered in moss and plants with some honeycomb from a wasps nest and a couple of plant stems stuck in to make it look good. First off, all bees place all honey in sheet-like combs, never as a solid mass. Secondly honey always has to be in the liquid form, otherwise bees can't use it. I was thinking that maybe this is honey mixed with a lot of sugar crystalized out in a wheel-shaped container and then dressed up to make it look like a genuine wild product. I can perhaps try to see if I can ask a friend of mine who is an apiculture expert. Best wishes, Invertzoo (talk) 23:45, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, Susan, you just might get your name changed from Sluggy to Sleuthy on this one. I just woke up and you have my head spinning.

Clues in support of the hoax theory: Apart from what you've cleverly pointed out, I checked all the bee species and nothing about subterranean honey. Hexcomb looks like wasp paper. Hexcomb structure visible on the surface, but not inside. Moss on the sides???? actually wanting to grow on honey?? The frequency of these types of tricks. The vendor's refusal to allow me to take a photo the first time I encountered it. The smug look on the vendor's face.

Clues in support of the authenticity theory: Hexcomb on surface seems to be oriented correctly. Smells like honeysuckle. Appears (allegedly) in two province. Weak, weak, weak.

I smell a rat.

My guess, from what you've pointed out, is 10:1 in favour of a hoax. I just might head down to the tea house where the lazy men drink tea all day while their wives are out working, and ask them if they know. There is the odd chance that some other kind of creature made this, but I really doubt that. I should be feeling like an idiot right now, but I can't seem to wipe the smile off my face. I don't know whether Viriditas is going to laugh or want to kill me. Maybe both. Well done Susan!!!! Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:15, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I actually was wondering about that smile. There was something strange about it. I would probably go ahead and redirect the entire article to Wild Honey at this time since "wild honey" is a valid term. Viriditas (talk) 02:24, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Done. That smile is very suspicious. Viriditas (talk) 02:29, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Kill you? Never! Laugh as I pour honey all over you and parade you in front of the bears at the zoo? Maybe... Viriditas (talk) 02:40, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Bring on the bears. You see, Susan, this is why you are a good scientist. I went to large tea house and engaged a group of the oldest men there. They laughed and said it is fake. As a foreigner is a rarety, a large group formed. Young men all insisted that it is real on the basis that their aunties say so, or that they heard it somewhere. A noisy discussion ensued, which is probably still going on now. I believe the old men.

I will swap the { {hoax} } tag for a { {db-hoax} } tag. The loss: My 2 hours, Viriditas' half hour (sorry about that), one of my assistant's hours, a dollar fifty for the sample, a bunch of misinformed visitors to the article, my face and reputation. The gain: A good story for the dinner table, and a lesson learned.

I have travelled to almost 30 countries, have lived in several, and have seen many a scam. But, I never even considered this to be a fake. I am impressed. This was a good one, even for China.

Viriditas, meet you at the zoo at, say, sevenish. The 5-gallon drum of honey is on me, literally. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:05, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Don't tempt me, Anna. I'll enjoy it. :-) Don't be so hard on yourself, Anna. There are so many scams going on around us at every moment, that if you became aware of all them, you would freeze in your very tracks. From all the sticky honey, of course. Seriously, I was reading somewhere just the other day that dishonesty is our natural inclination from birth (for survival purposes), and that honesty is something we learn as we get older and mostly artificial. The number of lies people tell everyday is overwhelming. Diogenes of Sinope was really onto something when he was seen around town carrying a lamp in full daylight. When asked what the heck he was doing holding a lamp during the day, he replied, "I am looking for an honest man." Viriditas (talk) 05:18, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Ha ha. That's very funny. Actually the last time I got stung was many, many, many years ago in Mombasa when I gave a money changer 10 bucks and he ran out the back door. You mentioned "suspicious". I hope you know that I would never deliberately waste anybody's time or do anything to harm Wikipedia. Of course, it is reasonable to suspect that I may be an idiot. And now, I have to see about my elevator pass, as it will expire tomorrow. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:45, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I can't find the article to tag it { {db-hoax} }. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:50, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

&redirect=no [8] Viriditas (talk) 05:54, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Okay. Thanks. And sorry again for the wasted time. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 06:03, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Don't be silly, I run into this stuff all the time. It's human nature. Are you interested in magic at all? The really good magicians can not only detect liars by observing facial tics and the like, but they can implant false thoughts in your own mind, like pushy salesmen. (Isn't that what advertising is all about?) Scary! Viriditas (talk) 06:11, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes. I just read a lot about cold reading. They use a lot of suggestion to elicit information. Spooky stuff. The honey salesman though, just sat there. He didn't suggest. But there are a lot of these things here in China. There are actual snake oil salesmen here. No kidding. The bottle actually says "Snake Oil". Too funny. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 06:28, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Did you see that scene in Sherlock Holmes (2009 film) where Holmes "reads" Watson's fiancée? Not a very good film, but an interesting scene. Viriditas (talk) 06:49, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes. At the dinner table, I think. Agreed, not the best casting. Downey is not sinewy or old enough, as Holmes is often described in the novels. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 07:18, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sure you're right, but I'm a weird one. For me, Downey and Jude are such professionals, I feel they can play anything. What turned me off from this film was the direction, the editing, and the writing - in that order. I can't quite figure out what the director was thinking, but something went terribly wrong somewhere. The film lacked imagination, originality, spontaneity, and basic joie de vivre. And don't get me started with the pacing and clichés. Does anyone actually screen these things before they release them? I mean Watchmen was a better film, and boy did that stink. Viriditas (talk) 10:27, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

One reason that I was suspicious is that the honey we get in the US which is from China is sold as 100% honey, but it is is diluted, like 30% or even up to 50% with high-fructose corn syrup (yuck). Most people don't notice the difference because sweet is sweet and you still get some of that real honey flavor. I am assuming that your block of stuff might contain a proportion of real honey and the rest is sugar or a mixture of sugar and corn syrup. It is an interesting hoax.

On this site they mention Chinese "rock" sugar, which is apparently yellow, [9] rather like our brown sugar I guess. I suppose perhaps this is the sugar they use to make the honey concoction. Also from a google search it appears [10] that it is possible to buy natural and artificial flavoring that smells/tastes like honeysuckle. That can perhaps be added to the mixture to help increase the honey-like appeal of it.

Best, Invertzoo (talk) 18:06, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

That looks exactly like the stuff. But, if it's more expensive than ordinary sugar, then I guess they would use yellow dye. Outrageous!! White sugar costs $0.51 USD/lb. and the fake honey sells for $2.92 USD/lb. The guy sells the entire (approx.) 20 lb. slab in about two hours. That's a profit of about 50 bucks, the equivalent of 2 weeks work for a waitress. I have seen it for sale three times, always in a poor area. By the way, nice irony with the honeysuckle website. I have yet to tell my friends about this. They are going to have quite a laugh. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 18:36, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

How does it taste? Maybe it does have some honey in it? Does it taste nice? How do people use it? To sweeten tea? Or to make desserts? Who knows, maybe this is an ancient hoax that is of interest in and of itself? You know, like the Shell game or something? Also, I don't know for sure that it is a hoax, I just have my suspicions. I mean why would the mass be all covered with moss, especially underneath. Surely if it is "underground honey" it would have earth on all of the sides, otherwise all kinds of other creatures would for sure have eaten it up back when it was "in situ". I tried to imagine scenarios where a real bee nest up in a tree or whatever was robbed by people and a lot of the honey ran down into the earth and then crystalized, but I couldn't come up with a really convincing scenario. What do the vendors call it? Do they call it the equivalent of "wild honey" or "underground honey", or what? Do they say anything about it at all? I suppose the vendors are taking advantage of people who have lived their whole lives in the city and therefore don't know anything about the countryside? Can you buy real honey in your part of town? Do vendors ever sell real honey in jars or honeycomb? If so ask them about this weird kind of supposed "honey", they would let you know the lowdown on this I expect. Invertzoo (talk) 20:43, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

It seems like a pity to waste your photos, so if you perhaps felt like making an article section (or even an article) about honey adulteration, there is a good piece here [11], and there is also some info at adulterant. There's lots of info if you google >adulteration honey<. Best, Invertzoo (talk) 21:09, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I will try to answer in point form:

• It tastes like sugar, that's all. I doubt it has even a speck of valuable honey. It is to be mixed with hot water and consumed for purported health benefits.

• My guess is that it is a very old trick. Chinese people suffer from a lack of originality and creativity. This is due a number of reasons including: large school class sizes, a play it safe attidute, distain for uniqueness, and a very traditional society. The result is that they do what they did yesterday. Brilliant ideas are rare. They are carried on, and occasionally improved upon. Those "clever ways" that we see are the result of natural selection. Dumb ideas that don't make it drop out. Good ideas continue and evolve when an improvement is stumbled upon.

• I will check out the hoax article and see if it fits. It seems, though, to be interesting but rare. So, I'm not sure if it's notable.

• Is it really a hoax? Well, there's an old saying: "When four old men in a teahouse laugh and say something is fake...." Okay. Well, it should be an old saying. I am 99% sure now. Physical and logical facts, plus four laughing, old men.... Moss doesn't grow underground, right? That means that somewhere in the woods, there is a cylinder of honey sitting ON the ground, with a paper comb on top. Not likely.

• They call it "Wild honey".

• Trickled down into the earth? That doesn't explain the paper comb on the top.

• The vendor has a sign saying something like "Wild honey. Good for your health. Blah blah." The vendor says the same. I could not communicate with any of them well. Their native language is Hainanese, not Mandarin. They speak Mandarin, but badly, and with a strong accent.

• They are taking advantage of city folk. But, most of the people in Haikou are either from villages on the island, or have family from villages who they visit. They know all about the countryside. Many must know the slab is fake but say nothing, as is the way here. The others? They believe it because some auntie told them it is real? How does the auntie know? A cousin told her. There is a serious problem with vetting information here in China. There is no basis in fact for a great many of their beliefs. Just look at Chinese medicine. What percentage really does anything? They spend a fortune on it because the doctor told them. The doctors make money from its sale. The way here is: "Sneeze once, must go to doctor, doctor must give medicine because bad doctor no give medicine, 2 kinds of oral antibiotics, 2 kinds of I.V. antibiotics, 40 USD herbs and magic mushrooms, see you next time you sneeze."

• Real honey is always sold in supermarkets, and specialty honey shops. The specialty honey shops have jars with proper wax combs inside and particles, and a honey "soda fountain-like thing" to fill jars, bee boxes, literature, and actual bees trying to reclaim the honey around the soda fountain. This is in the city. All this is no guarantee that it is honey. But it smells like honey. Such is China.

• That's a good idea. I will ask the honey shops.

• No big waste of photos. A girl from the photocopy shop took them for me. She is a friend, and was happy to do it. Honey adulteration? I don't think there was any honey in it. If you stick moss on sugar, is that "sugar adulteration"? Ha ha ha.

Wow. Long post. I hope this answers everything you asked. Now you know why I was smiling. This country is a never-ending source of entertainment. It's the second coolest country next to India. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:34, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I wonder if the subject has a place here? Then again, is it really a hoax, or just a fake product? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 05:52, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I would like to qualify the above statements by saying that I am speaking generally, and about the people here. It is not a statement about race, but rather a statement about the culture. These views are well understood, discussed, and agreed upon by many Chinese friends. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 09:15, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

OK it's not a hoax but it certainly is a fraud, and a casual google search shows fake honey to be a problem internationally. Well, thanks for all the careful answers! Goodness knows you are probably sick of the subject by now, but if you or someone else can find some published sources about fake honey aka counterfeit honey as well as sources on honey adulteration then I do think the whole subject deserves at least its own subsection in the honey article. I see there is a short article here about fake honey in Turkey [12]. Best wishes, Invertzoo (talk) 21:19, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm no longer too sweet on the whole honey subject. I was happy to write my comments in this thread because it was about the fraud, which I found interesting. But, the subject itself is not particularly interesting to me. I don't even like honey that much. Plus, China has had a role in counterfeiting honey. Despite its many faults, I think China is a great country, and I would not want to write anything in the mainspace that would besmirch its name. Now, there are a couple of praying mantis species that need articles. You can't counterfeit a praying mantis, unless of course, you're really good with Fimo. Regards, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:45, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Forget Fimo! Try a Oaxacan woodcarving of a praying mantis. Viriditas (talk) 08:15, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Wow! Anna Frodesiak (talk) 08:45, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

One of many. Viriditas (talk) 08:49, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Darn! Now I feel terrible. It turns out they are destroying native forests to build those things. Viriditas (talk) 10:36, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

the Grand Lodge of British Freemasons in Germany

Dear Anna,

it is not my style to make personal attacks on anyone unless they are cemented in fact. However, I agree with you that the entry for The Grand Lodge of British Freemasons in Germany should be reduced to a simple explanation of what it is and it's website. I am not in agreement with the other persons somewhat emotional and personal comments-something he tries to accuse me of. I sincerely hope that the new entry on the Wikipedia page will be accepted by the other person and that you are also in agreement with it.

Kindest regards

John Kellas —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Kellas (talk • contribs) 16:59, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

As you may have noticed by now, I have removed all but the first sentence. Please use the article's talk page for further discussions about Grand Lodge of British Freemasons in Germany. If I can be of help in matters not related to the content of that article, please feel free to ask here on my talk page. Best wishes, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 17:25, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Grand Lodge of British Freemasons in Germany

Well done Anna. I feel your conclusion is absolutely correct. My only wish was to stop any persons portraying this organisation in a favorable light. Thank you. Best regards John Kellas —Preceding unsigned comment added by John Kellas (talk • contribs) 09:42, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

You are most welcome. Glad I could help. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 09:49, 11 May 2010 (UTC)