Talk:Ukraine/Archive 11

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Archive 11

What does light green colour stand for?

Is there a rule how to use light green in all of Wikipedia?

In all wiki articles on various countries, I've noticed that dark green designates national territory. From what I've seen in other articles, light green is used for territory claimed by certain country, but outside of their control.

Examples:

People's Republic of China page > PR China claims Taiwan, PR China does not control Taiwan > Taiwan is light green.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/CHN_orthographic.svg/2048px-CHN_orthographic.svg.png

Republical of China (Taiwan) page > Republic of China claims all of mainland, Republic of China does not control it > all of mainland is light green.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/Republic_of_China_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg/2048px-Republic_of_China_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png

Serbia page > Serbia claims Kosovo, Serbia does not control Kosovo > Kosovo is light green.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Europe-Serbia.svg/2045px-Europe-Serbia.svg.png

Pakistan page > Pakistan claims all of Kashmir, Pakistan does not hold eastern Kashmir > eastern Kashmir is light green.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/PAK_orthographic.svg/2048px-PAK_orthographic.svg.png

India page > India claims all of Kashmir, India does not hold western Kashmir > western Kashmir is light green.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/India_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg/2048px-India_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png

So shouldn't the same apply here?

Dark green should be parts which Ukraine claims and controls, and parts that Ukraine claims, but does not control should be light green, consistent with all other Wikipedia articles.

Ukraine claims and holds Lviv > Lviv dark green.

Ukraine claims but does not hold Crimea > Crimea light green.

~ 78.0.5.233 (talk) 11:05, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

That should apply if and when the situation becomes similar to the examples you gave, meaning frozen conflicts with established even though not mutually recognized borders. In an ongoing war, in which the front lines change every day, the situation prior to the war should apply. We do have daily updated maps showing changes in the front line, but that map is not suitable for the infobox which provide stable information. Jeppiz (talk) 11:29, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

OK I get get the point, but I still don't understand why would it be so difficult to update map in infobx once every week or two weeks to reflect objective reality? Is it really that hard work? Besides, an update every week or two is far more relevant than a 7 months old map. Imagine if this is ww2, Poland has been occupied and you say we need to wait for war to end before updating map. It's silly. But OK, it's how I feel. Tnx for replying. ~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.5.233 (talk) 11:38, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

It is a map of Ukraine. It is not supposed to show the front lines. If you want to see which areas are under occupation each day, the article is 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Mellk (talk) 12:54, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Agree with Mellk. Is impractical to have articles about countries have their maps updated every week to reflect frontlines, when there is an article dedicated to the war of which the frontlines are about. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 21:40, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Honestly not that impractical. There are plenty of people online who obsess about the war so the work gets done relatively fast (and if the conquest of a few villages is forgotten for some time, it is barely visible at this scale of the map). The update is done directly on the file on Commons so no change has to be made on the Wikipedia article. It's OK to not want to see frontlines on an infobox map, but this is really not about practicality. GrandEscogriffe (talk) 19:10, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

This is true but the annexations do not have fluid borders. The borders are fixed and reflect the borders of the Ukrainian subdivisions. The argument that the frontlines are constantly changing is irrelevant. Nikolai Gennadievich Nazarov (talk) 23:03, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Nonsense.

The UN general council has recognized Ukraine within its 1991 borders. Therefore, whatever Russian think they have "fixed" is irrelevant. DoctorWhutsup (talk) 08:06, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Considering the number of exploded sites with ammo in Crimea, it is a legit war territory and potential target. DoctorWhutsup (talk) 08:07, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

The map displayed should show the territory as recognised by the UN. The map of Ukraine doesn't need to show any front lines because it's an article on the country, and Ukraines borders have not changed. As was said above, an article on the war would be more appropriate to show the front lines. However, that does not change the borders of Ukrainian territory.

Russia believes the borders have changed, but Russia has no authority to decide what is Ukraine and what isn't Ukraine.

The borders of Ukraine on Wikipedia should reflect what is truly the territory of Ukraine, including Crimea. ReticuliZ (talk) 08:50, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 October 2022

In the caption next to the section 'Foreign Domination' in History, under the map of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, change "Poland and the Polish Crown exercised power over much of Ukraine since 1569." to "over much of Ukraine after 1569." Since implies a change that continues into the present, whereas after suggests a change that ended at some point. In other words, saying since would imply that Poland still excercises power over Ukraine. David12345 (talk) 16:11, 14 October 2022 (UTC) David12345 (talk) 16:11, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

 Done ~~ lol1VNIO (I made a mistake? talk to me) 16:51, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

GDP rank missing

Is there a reason the GDP rankings are missing? I normally go to a country's Wikipedia page when I want to quickly look up this kind info so it's an unpleasant surprise to see this info missing here. 2601:204:D101:4C60:2073:D4E8:5858:811E (talk) 08:23, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

It says in the last sentence of the lead that "Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe by nominal GDP per capita". Kleinpecan (talk) 14:48, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

No offense, but your quote doesn't answer the question ("Is there a reason the GDP rankings are missing?") because it (1) only gives the rank in Europe and (2) only applies to nominal GDP per capita (PPP GDP per capita rank is missing, total nominal GDP rank is missing, and total PPP GDP rank is missing). Other "country's Wikipedia page"s show the world rank of all 4 of these in the sidebar. You're making a lot of assumptions about the desired rank.  selfworm^Talk) 19:23, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

In such a top level article I think it is for you to justify adding GDP rankings - personally I think Economy of Ukraine is where they belong not here Chidgk1 (talk) 13:38, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 October 2022

I would like to recommend making a change to the following sentence on the page dedicated to Ukraine: "The name of Ukraine probably comes from the old Slavic term for "borderland",[23] as does the word krajina."

Please, instead of "borderland" it must be "land".

Explanation:

"Ukraine" or "Ukrajina" was first documented in the Kyiv Chronicle in 1187 and means "land". There were different ukraines: e.g. white, red, green ukraine. The concept of Ukraine as a "borderland" was invented by Moscovites (the original title for modern Russians) during their imperial period in order to undermine Ukrainian history and ethnicity. "Ukrajina", "vkrajina" or "krajina" is still used among other Slavs as a "land". E.g. in Slovenian "krajina", "pokrajina" etc. Diamangel (talk) 10:29, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

No sources provided, and not correct. The word Krajina has been used for border regions in numerous Slavic languages (Croatian, Serbian, Slovene, Polish) for centuries. Jeppiz (talk) 23:27, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Map needs to be updated

as of October 2022 2601:681:300:11B0:74FF:FC82:57A0:D662 (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2806:2F0:3340:2CD3:97A6:361E:151D:EFAD (talk) 17:43, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

The map in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Independence was updated on 1st November. Chidgk1 (talk) 15:32, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Where is Zaporizhzhia on a map?

What that WP:OR map is doing in article title? Does Zaporizhzhia is not in Ukraine anymore? As well as big part of Donetsk region and other inconsistencies? Manyareasexpert (talk) 21:26, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

You mean the location map in the infobox? That is to show where the country is in the world/Europe. What exactly is your change suggestion? Chidgk1 (talk) 16:05, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine_-_disputed_(orthographic_projection).svg right, this image in the infobox. There was an edit war on this image recently and now, being reverted to prev version, it is correct. This version https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/9/9e/20221025120352%21Ukraine_-_disputed_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg however is not. Manyareasexpert (talk) 16:26, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

The map in the independance section is the one which is updated frequently not the location map Chidgk1 (talk) 15:36, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 November 2022

Ukraine is the largest country entirely in Europe. 50.232.240.38 (talk) 15:14, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Please delete : It is the second-largest European country after Russia, which it borders to the east and northeast.[a][11] Please add: Ukraine is the largest country located entirely in Europe. 50.232.240.38 (talk) 15:17, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Not done, the current version is more comprehensive. The area of European Russia is by itself larger than Ukraine. --Mvqr (talk) 15:34, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Economy

"[...] ; the country was rated 122nd out of 180 in the Corruption Perceptions Index for 2021, the second-lowest result in Europe after Russia."

I think it has to read before russia.

Seriously. 79.248.206.42 (talk) 20:12, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

I've reviewed the source and it's correctly describer in the article. I suspect you're confused by the phrasing; you might think 'after' means that a change has occcured over time, perhaps between before and after the invasion. Instead, what is meant is that Ukraine comes after Russia on the list, when read from worst to best. David12345 (talk) 15:21, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 December 2022

The description under one of the pictures is misleading because it states that Polish troops entered Kyiev after signing of the Riga agreement but it is false. Polish troops entered Kyiv along Ukrainian troops of Petlura and later one the soviet counter offensive was lunched against Poland and the battle of Warsaw was won by Poles the Riga agreements was signed. Please correct that as it falsify the history and creates as if Kyiv was occupied by Poles.

Is: "Polish troops enter Kyiv in May 1920 during the Polish–Soviet War. Following the Peace of Riga signed on 18 March 1921, Poland took control of modern-day western Ukraine while Soviets took control of eastern and central Ukraine."

Should be just: "Polish troops enter Kyiv in May 1920 during the Polish–Soviet War. "

or 

"Polish troops enter Kyiv in May 1920 during the Polish–Soviet War. Kyiv was captured again by bolshevik troops later this year which they retained after Riga agreement." 31.61.227.10 (talk) 18:35, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.. Colonestarrice (talk) 02:44, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Request to add map of regions and oblasts

There is a better Map of Ukraine showing Regions and Oblasts. Consider adding this new map so that readers are not confused by history. They need a clear presentation of modern Ukraine without all the confusing irrelevant references that only Ukrainians will understand. https://www.cassbeth.com/ukraine/Ukraine-Regions-Oblasts.png (copy and paste the link into your browser, selecting the link is blocked by the website because it is sourced from outside the website) 2601:80:4382:6AB0:EC36:340E:4F8D:10CA (talk) 20:03, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Firstly, that link does not work. Secondly, we cannot take maps from elsewhere. Thirdly, it is unclear where you want this sort of map added or what current map is confusing. CMD (talk) 03:28, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

this is spam. somebody should just remove all of it. Manyareasexpert (talk) 11:10, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

This is not SPAM. The site does not allow other websites to link to images. Clicking on it does not work because the site blocks its images from being links on other websites. If you copy the above link and paste it into the browser it should load. The map is located at [1]https://www.cassbeth.com/ukraine/index.html#Maps-Of-Ukrainian-Lands. Scroll to the bottom of the section. There are 2 maps Ukraine Regions and Ukraine Regions, Oblasts, and Republic of Crimea. Once you see the maps you will know where to place them. This is all done with the best of intentions. 2601:80:4382:6AB0:EC36:340E:4F8D:10CA (talk) 13:13, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

If the site is that protective of its images, then we definitely cannot use them here. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:54, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

I don't think you understand. It is a practice of websites to prevent other websites from posting links to their images so that they do not have extreme use of bandwidth. This is basic internet operations going back 20 years. Unfortunately this wiki converts all text URLs into link URLs. By the way if you notice on the website there is a copyright notice that clearly states that these maps are released to everyone for any purpose.2601:80:4382:6AB0:EC36:340E:4F8D:10CA (talk) 14:50, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

I guess you want to replace

 
Volyn

 
Rivne

 
Zhytomyr

 
Kyiv

 
Khmeln-
ytsky

 
Lviv

 
Ternopil

 
Ivano-
Frankivsk

 
Zakarpattia

 
Chernivtsi

 
Vinnytsia

 
Cherkasy

 
Kirovohrad

 
Mykolaiv

 
Poltava

 
Chernihiv

 
Sumy

 
Kharkiv

 
Dnipropetrovsk

 
Odesa

 
Kherson

 
Zaporizhzhia

 
Donetsk

 
Crimea

 
Luhansk

Kyiv

Sevastopol

•

•

 ? So I have amended the title of this talk page section. This map of oblasts in the article seems to come from a template - don’t you think the clickable links are useful? Chidgk1 (talk) 14:30, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Do not replace that map with the links. It is excellent. Add the other map or its variant that shows the regions and names the Oblasts. Think about the map of the USA. It is simple and clear showing the states and or regions. It is a form of branding. Place them side by side. Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:80:4382:6AB0:EC36:340E:4F8D:10CA (talk) 03:21, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

United States does not have a map of regions only states. Personally I think your suggestion would be too many similar maps for this top level article - what do other people think? Also Geography of Ukraine is not restricted - you could edit that if you like. Chidgk1 (talk) 19:41, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Holodomor link in intro doesn't match what the text says.

At the end of the second paragraph of the intro, there's this line: "In the 1930s, millions of Ukrainians were killed by the Holodomor, a Stalin-era man-made famine." It says "man-made famine", yet the link it goes to clearly shows that there is not a consensus. The line should at the least be changed to say just "famine" without "man-made". That entire paragraph has no references either. I'd honestly say a lot of this whole entry relies on users not trying to confirm any of the biased information within and just taking it at face value. Djengle91 (talk) 21:13, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

After scanning the Causes of the Holodomor article, I agree. How do we set up an edit request to change that? סשס Grimmchild. He/him, probably 10:41, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

WP articles are not considered reliable sources, see WP:RS. The lead section should summarize the article, so references are not needed there. But references are needed in the body of the article, and there is a reference to BBC. So, basically there is no problem, although improvements are surely possible. Rsk6400 (talk) 12:20, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

@Rsk6400 I'm referring to a link to another Wikipedia article within this article. The link uses the text "man-made famine", but if you follow the link, it goes to the "Causes of the Holodomor" page, which makes it clear there is no consensus on whether it is "man-made" or not. Using "man-made", or even "natural", inserts bias as well as being in opposition to its own link.

I don't know all the protocols, but if there's a rule that says "you can't link to an article on long-haired dogs with the text 'short-haired' dogs", this would fall under that. Djengle91 (talk) 18:48, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

There is consensus among historians that it was man-made. The question is whether it was a consequence of (man-made) collectivization or whether Stalin intentionally used hunger to get rid of possible opposition. The second question is whether the (possibly) intended hunger was targeting Ukrainians specifically, which would mean that it was not only man-made but also genocidal. Even if the article Causes of the Holodomor should not reflect this consensus of historians, the expression "man-made famine" should stand because WP follows consensus of academic research.

But in reality, even Causes of the Holodomor is saying exactly what I outlined above. Rsk6400 (talk) 19:31, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Belgian Metrotime.be , - reported .

Regarding discovered bunkers where children were tortured.

Does that belong to the topic? Supposedly, she only gave them something to drink once every 2 days.

(To minimize problems of the duodenum .)195.244.167.108 (talk) 12:47, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Area

the total area doesn't match, the area at the source url: 603628 km2 vs 603,550 sq km WikedKentaur (talk) 11:10, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Fixed thanks Chidgk1 (talk) 14:20, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

photo

There is a slight inconsisteny between the description of the photos under the heading "government" The descripion under Volodymyr Zelenskyy is in English and that of Denis Shmygal is in Ukranian. I propose to change the latter to "Porträt des ukrainischen Ministerpräsidenten Denis Shmygal", to make it consistent with the language of the article. Hskoppek (talk) 11:05, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm not following, the language of the article is English. As for the descriptions, other languages can be added on their Commons pages. CMD (talk) 11:31, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

When enlarging the picture, or when scrolling through the pictures, the caption seems to be pulled from Commons when no alternative caption is specified. I've added an english caption to the picture on commons, but I think someone needs to either specify that that caption should be used or add a seperate caption here. David12345 (talk) 12:10, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

If you added an English caption on Commons I'm not seeing it. That said, I just checked the article code and the pictures are in a wikitable??? I've replaced with a multiple image template, which should help. CMD (talk) 15:30, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm not very familiar with commons, here's the change I made: [2] David12345 (talk) 16:33, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Ah, I have copied that into the description too. Let's hope whatever the issue is is solved. CMD (talk) 16:46, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Recognised regional languages of ukraine

Crimean tatar, Krymchak, Gagauz, Hungarian, Karaim, Romanian and Russian are regional Recognised Languages 92.40.213.238 (talk) 12:54, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source for that please? Chidgk1 (talk) 19:36, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

This might be a reliable source for it: https://www.husj.harvard.edu/articles/language-status-and-state-loyalty-in-ukraine Ozziebro (talk) 07:49, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Just so you know, its a Harvard website so I think it might be more in-depth. Ozziebro (talk) 07:50, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

I cannot find it in that source - which sentence please? Chidgk1 (talk) 19:01, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Then we might have to find another one. Ozziebro (talk) 08:43, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source please could you update Language policy in Ukraine. I could not find "Karaim" in that article. Chidgk1 (talk) 19:06, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Ok. Ozziebro (talk) 08:44, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Most of the source say Slavic languages. Ozziebro (talk) 08:47, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Map in lead inaccurate

The leading map is not accurate to the present situation in Ukraine dose not include the occupied areas in the south and east of the country that have been annexed by Russia in light green as with crimea and the donbas but instead dark green falsely showing it as de facto part of Ukraine. Roma enjoyer (talk) 10:05, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

We are not editing the infobox map to reflect the day-to-day movement of an ongoing hot war. CMD (talk) 10:49, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

To clarify, what I am saying is not that the day to day movements of the war should be shown in the map, instead I think that the annexation of southern and eastern areas should be shown by changing the colour to light green like it is in the Russian article or for Crimea and the donbas in this article Roma enjoyer (talk) 11:37, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

That area is changing day to day due to the ongoing war. It has never been stable. CMD (talk) 11:54, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

"Republic of Ukraine" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Republic of Ukraine and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 16 § Republic of Ukraine until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. An anonymous username, not my real name 18:15, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Not the "borderland"

It also means area. Край — area of the land populated by people Luengram (talk) 12:34, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

If it "also" means area, then it means it has multiple meanings. Therefore, the meaning with more context, borderland, is right. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 15:56, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Too many history books? Which are the best history books?

At the moment there are 18 history books listed under "print sources”. Do you think this is too many? If so which are the best ones which should be kept here rather than moved to history of Ukraine? Chidgk1 (talk) 06:37, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

The ones that are actually cited (Piotrowski, Magocsi, Subtelny, Boshyk) should obviously be kept. That is what this section is really for. In addition, a few are cited with full bibliographical details inline (Katchanovski, Yekelchyk, Berkhoff) so they are redundant. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 13:15, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Should move to an article called Bibliography of Ukraine as compiling bibliographies is a major activity of historians and scholars here on Wikipedia...it's done for our readers to have access to research material ...as the main purpose of this site is education... i,e Wikipedia:List of bibliographies like Bibliography of Canada. Moxy- 17:17, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Bibliography of Ukrainian history already exists so I have added to the list Chidgk1 (talk) 17:29, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I am a bit confused as when I delete them all there are no cite errors. I thought there would be cite errors but a bot would fix them overnight Chidgk1 (talk) 17:23, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

@Chidgk1: There are no cite errors because (most of) these citations are simply text without any templates. So please be careful and check before deleting any entry. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:32, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Seems too much work to go through them all manually. So I was going to undo my change but I see @Moxy has already done so Chidgk1 (talk) 17:38, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Oh sorry I guess I have never noticed this kind of citation before as this may be one of the oldest articles I have edited Chidgk1 (talk) 17:51, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Lets not delete if your not aware of the significance of the reference material..at worst move to BIB and link the bib like Canada# Bibliography of Canada. Please do what is best for your readers to gain information. This section was compiled by User:Rjensen (Richard J. Jensen) one of our resident experts. Moxy- 17:37, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

OK @Rjensen obviously knows more than me so I will leave this alone Chidgk1 (talk) 17:40, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I tried to select the ones recommended by experts. I rely on reviews in scholarly journals. Most Wikipedia users have access to small libraries that will have only a few books on Ukraine, so their effective opportunity is maybe one or two --and they can use this list to see if they are good books. Those with access to a university library will have hundreds of titles and this will help them narrow down to the best. Ukraine is a HOT topic these days and it's likely that many of the good titles will be checked out. Rjensen (talk) 01:15, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Citation/Reference correction

In the Diaspora section, citation number [315] is attached to "Brazil" despite the citation referring to a Canadian news article concerning Ukrainian refugees to Canada. This citation reference should be relocated next to the proper reference point "Canada". MelioraCogito (talk) 05:04, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

One benefit of the section being an excerpt is that you should be able to correct it yourself in Ukrainian diaspora. Any problem let us know Chidgk1 (talk) 13:06, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Deleted merged content from 1930 in Ukraine

Having just closed Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 20#1930 in Ukraine as delete, I wanted to note that a map formerly at 1930 in Ukraine was used in this article for a time before being removed. Please see that discussion for more information. --BDD (talk) 22:33, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Map legend

The map legend reads "Russian-occupied territories of Ukraine prior to the 2022 Russian invasion" for the uncontrolled territories prior to the ongoing Russian invasion. However, the only territory directly occupied by Russia before the invasion was Crimea. The region of Donbass was occupied by pro-Russian separatists with unofficial support from Russia. To my knowledge, this is what all reliable sources claim, and it should not be controversial to consider this a good faith mistake. I suggest we change it back to what it was before, either "Occupied/annexed territories prior to the 2022 Russian invasion" or "Claimed but uncontrolled territory prior to the 2022 Russian invasion" or something in the lines of "Russia and pro-Russian separatists-occupied territory prior to the 2022 Russian Invasion" to present the Russian involvement in a more accurate manner. 187.71.138.117 (talk) 00:14, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

After the recognition of the republics on 21 February 2022, Russian troops were sent there. Mellk (talk) 00:20, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Strange

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Very strange that many African countries are downgraded in their HDI but Ukraine figure is still left for more than 2 years even with the war raging which means obv it's per capita income and HDI have gone drastically down but the majority of white editors ignore it and concentrate on downgrading African countries on purpose Nlivataye (talk) 10:02, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I am reasonably confident the various HDI gnomes are not part of some random and pointless conspiracy. CMD (talk) 14:12, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:42, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Geography of Ukraine

The area of Ukraine and it's demographics are clearly not up to date with the changes in recent years and recent months. It's still considered as it was before russian annexation of Crimea and Donbas. Perhaps this is a matter to be taken in consideration. 2A02:2F01:8E08:3B00:F1:6416:C98D:A1F (talk) 12:55, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

The area of Ukraine and ITS (not IT'S) demographics. So what are you suggesting? That we rewrite Wikipedia to ratify the Putinist position that Crimea and Donbas are Russia, not Ukraine? Perhaps you'd like to try the Russian Wikipedia first. Uporządnicki (talk) 13:42, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Ack! Someone removed OP's (or is it VP's?) gaslighting, doublespeak response--and created an edit conflict with my own brilliant retort. Uporządnicki (talk) 14:16, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I guess it depends -- does Wikipedia recognize de facto reality or de jure reality?

De facto -- the Donbas are part of Russia (annexed) just as assuredly as the Golan Heights are part of Israel.

De jure -- few states will recognize the annexation

Question -- the US never really recognized the incorporation of the Baltic states into the USSR following WW2. Did Wikipedia show a map with the de facto reality (i.e. part of USSR) or the USA de jure reality (still independent but occupied)?

The answer should guide action here. Chesspride216.144.161.51 (talk) 18:38, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Please use correct formatting and indentation and take a look into WP's history. Rsk6400 (talk) 19:20, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Brest-Litovsk treaties in history section?

It seems in the history section there is no mention of the Brest-Litovsk treaty (between Russia and the Central Powers), or the separate Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (Ukraine–Central Powers), both of which recognized the independence of Ukraine by the Central Powers. The treaties were later nullified upon German surrender, however they still happened. Is there a particular reason these are not included? NoN33d4UserNames (talk) 01:16, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Since the Ukrainian People's Republic (UNR) of 1918-21 was the first Ukrainian state, the national flag of which is still used today, it is so important for Ukrainian history, that it needs a better representation than it has by now. As the article stands, the UNR is presented as a chaotic failure, but we should at least notice that it gained international recognition by the treaties you mentioned. Rsk6400 (talk) 07:37, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, though reading the materials, the period is indeed extremely chaotic, possibly even more so than described in the current article. For example, according to the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (Ukraine–Central Powers) article, during the treaty the UNR/UPR lost control of Kiev, and then later regained it. Then somehow as far as I understood the central powers turned on the UNR, and the people of the UNR were also unhappy. Meanwhile the Russian Civil War was happening. According to Ukrainian war of independence Poland also took various sides (once attacking to annex Galicia, then helping against the Bolsheviks). This is not to mention the transition from UPR to UNR, i.e. the coup, and other internal struggles. Definitely more happened than is written in that section. NoN33d4UserNames (talk) 16:56, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

UNR is the same as UPR, the first one is the abbreviation of the Ukrainian name, the second one of the English name. The history was chaotic, but there is a line of continuity from the central rada (council / parliament) of 1917 to the UNR until 1921, and that's an important point for the interpretation of Ukrainian history - modern Ukraine was not formed by Lenin (as Putin claims), but by the central rada which has its roots in a strong national movement that goes back to the 19th century and built on traditions from the Middle Ages and the Early Modern Period. Rsk6400 (talk) 18:10, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, I confused the UNR with the Ukrainian State, which is the name change after the coup. I believe the "People's Republic of ..." is a common translation for the name "Наро́дна Респу́бліка". For example, the current name of the PRC in Ukrainian is "Народна Республіка Китай". The word "народна" is similar yet rather different than "national". The word "народ" is more like "people". There is a separate word for "national", which is "національний" (natsional'nyi). I will open a discussion regarding this in the UPR page. NoN33d4UserNames (talk) 18:44, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Suggestion of map change

I'm wondering why we haven't made the annexed areas of Russia's disputed territory. I mean even if they are illegal by international law it's recognised by Russia and two other UN members (North Korea and Syria) as legit. And because we want to be neutral, we have to dispute those areas too. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 14:05, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

WP:NPOV means neutrally presenting what reliable sources say. Rsk6400 (talk) 14:13, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

How do reliable sources paint this dispute in their maps? Manyareasexpert (talk) 14:14, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

They show the current front-line generally. However, assuming the OP is referring to the infobox map, the reason we haven't changed it is because this is a live war with shifting control, which is not the purpose of the infobox. (On top of that reliable sources say Russia's annexations were vague, no doubt why they show the frontline rather than some annexation map.) CMD (talk) 02:55, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Culture

Hello, regarding the Culture section, would it be possible to update the number of sites listed on the World Heritage List? Here are the updated information, and I think it would also be interesting to mention the 247 sites whose damage has been verified by UNESCO, as well as the addition of the Odesa centre to the list of world heritage in danger. Could an editor give their opinion and make the changes that you think are relevant? Thank you very much. E.poul (talk) 21:46, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I have changed the number to 8 but will leave someone else to decide the rest (exact text is in sandbox link above) Chidgk1 (talk) 14:32, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! E.poul (talk) 12:26, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

 Done Snowmanonahoe (talk) 17:53, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

National anthem

Please replace the anthem audio with one of these authentic (performed by Ukrainian orchestras) renditions: Президентський_оркестр_Гімн.ogg or Anthem_of_Ukraine_instrumental.ogg. VSL (talk) 01:24, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

A change like this one would need consensus. The audio file that is currently in the article is a performance by Veryovka Ukrainian Folk Choir, an authentic Ukrainian musical group. This group has even been recognized with a stamp in their honor. So they clearly qualify as sufficiently Ukrainian. EdJohnston (talk) 23:23, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@EdJohnston You are not right. Check the current audio. VSL (talk) 23:35, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Oh I see; what we have here currently is the US Navy band. But, if you want to replace the present recording with a different one, how about choosing a choral version rather than instrumental? The US Navy version is instrumental. The one by the Veryovka choir in State Anthem of Ukraine gives you a sung version of the anthem plus English subtitles for the words. The two new .ogg files that you propose above are once again just instrumental. EdJohnston (talk) 01:48, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

There is also a more complete 1916 vocal performing: Zazuliak — Shche ne vmerla Ukraina.oga Mykhailo Zazuliak — Shche ne vmerla Ukraina.oga

So a poll may be taken here for which version (or two versions: instrumental and vocal) to include:

Президентський_оркестр_Гімн.ogg

File:Anthem of Ukraine instrumental.ogg Anthem_of_Ukraine_instrumental.ogg

File:Anthem-of-Ukraine Chorus Veryovka.ogg Anthem-of-Ukraine_Chorus_Veryovka.ogg

Mykhailo Zazuliak — Shche ne vmerla Ukraina.oga

VSL (talk) 04:22, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Currently the last one (1916 complete) is tagged as public domain. For the other 3 I'm unsure which of the copyright exemptions these fall under. "works of folk art (folklore)"? CMD (talk) 04:54, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

@EdJohnston @Chipmunkdavis

Президентський_оркестр_Гімн.ogg is performed by a state-established and state-funded orchestra, so it should be in the public domain. One may also try to ask them on https://www.facebook.com/npo.ua and npo.ukr@gmail.com.

The same for Anthem-of-Ukraine_Chorus_Veryovka.ogg, but the vocal in it overlaps the music, and the music is more important.

So I suggest to replace the current audio with Президентський_оркестр_Гімн.ogg. VSL (talk) 14:15, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Source for civilians killed by nazis

It says the nazis killed '7 million ukrainians' and the 'majority of jews' yet provides no source whatsoever for these colossal figures. 2600:6C4E:183F:6100:65EC:A0C1:6C9F:4343 (talk) 17:52, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:LEAD, that statement is a summary of a section of the article. There sources are in that area, specifically Ukraine#World War II. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:09, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 April 2023

Change the arrow color indicating population movement from red to grey. So change it from Decrease to NeutralDecrease. As1999610 (talk) 02:29, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Done as although many would consider the decrease to be a bad thing it could be argued that it is good that so many people have been able to leave Chidgk1 (talk) 14:40, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

@Wolfman5678 You reverted this manually with a comment of “fixed”. Could you explain the reason for your change in more detail please? Chidgk1 (talk) 18:02, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Red represents declining population and green represents increasing population of a country. Has nothing to do with good or bad. Wolfman5678 (talk) 21:48, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

I think population change is neither color. GDP etc would be one of the two colors. Mellk (talk) 21:52, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

As far as I know the red triangles always mean ‘bad’ and ‘green’ good Chidgk1 (talk) 12:12, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Website

Not sure if it’s legit. If you scroll down and click the Spotify icon, there’s some playlists that don’t feel like they were made by a government PokiBeni898 (talk) 01:19, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

No comment on the legitness, but I've removed that field as it's intended for international organizations rather than countries. CMD (talk) 10:58, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 May 2023

2A02:C7C:C01B:800:A19A:2316:55A0:68D5 (talk) 17:13, 22 May 2023 (UTC) Change Ukraine's independence date from Soviet Union date from 24 August 1991 to 1 December 1991

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. In other words, which 24 August 1991? The one that stands for the date when declaration of independence was proclaimed cannot be changed because that's when it happened. –Vipz (talk) 22:02, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Etymology

The source for The name of Ukraine likely comes from the old Slavic term for "borderland",[22] https://www.economist.com/prospero/2014/02/05/johnson-is-there-a-single-ukraine is written BY R.L.G. which is not reliable much. Please take sources from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine and rewrite the text appropriately. Manyareasexpert (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Economist generally does not name writers but the magazine is considered reliable Chidgk1 (talk) 09:13, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

By the way would you be able to improve Name_of_Ukraine#Interpretation_as_"borderland", for example by adding cites or removing uncited info? Chidgk1 (talk) 09:18, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

This article requires extended-confirmed editor. Economist is reliable for recent events but for history and linguistic topics it's better to use scholar sources. Let's see what's in Name_of_Ukraine#Interpretation_as_"borderland". Manyareasexpert (talk) 09:24, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

@Manyareasexpert So as you have not edited Name of Ukraine recently does that mean you think that article is fine? I have not edited it either but I see there are a lot of "citation needed" tags. Which source do you think should be used here and exactly what should be written here? Chidgk1 (talk) 15:34, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I tried to search for sources and wasn't able to find good enough in English for now. I see Name of Ukraine includes Interpretation as "region, country" and there is a source http://litopys.org.ua/pivtorak/pivt12.htm in Ukrainian. Manyareasexpert (talk) 16:46, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Religions in Ukraine

A study in 2020 by Razumkov found that about 65.4% of the population claims to adhere to one of the branches of Orthodox Christianity (25% in the Kyiv Patriarchate, 21.2% "simply" Orthodox, 15% in the Moscow Patriarchate, 1.8% in the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, and 2% to other types of Orthodoxy), 7.1% "only" Christians, 6.5% to the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, 1.9% to Protestantism, 1, 1% to Islam and 1.0% to Latin Catholicism. Judaism and Hinduism each make up 0.2% of the population. 16.3% say they are non-religious or do not identify with the religions mentioned.https://razumkov.org.ua/uploads/article/2019_Religiya.pdf Other study by the Kiev International Institute of Sociology(KIIS): https://kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1129 Laikaofsiberia (talk) 11:42, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Of course, this contradicts with the front page Laikaofsiberia (talk) 08:36, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Could someone change it? Laikaofsiberia (talk) Laikaofsiberia (talk) 07:18, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Laikaofsiberia: By ‘frontpage’ I guess you mean the box of facts at the top right which is called an ‘infobox’ in Wikipedia jargon. You mean you want 1% Islam included in the infobox? Please can you tell us exactly what you want changed in ‘please change X to Y’ format. As I know nothing about Religion in Ukraine I will likely let someone else answer but maybe you could also edit that article (and discuss on their talk page if necessary). Their pie chart seems to be using a more recent source than yours. Chidgk1 (talk) 15:50, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

On the infobox there is this info:

87.3% Christianity

11.0% No religion

0.8% Others

0.9% Unanswered

According to other sources I found this:

65.4% adhere to one of the branches of Orthodox Christianity (25% in the Kyiv Patriarchate, 21.2% "simply" Orthodox, 15% in the Moscow Patriarchate, 1.8% in the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, and 2% to other types of Orthodoxy),

7.1% "only" Christians,

6.5% to the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church,

4.0% others

As the page is protected, I cannot edit it, so that's why I wrote it in the talk page. It seems relevant to me to separate Christianism and orthodoxy, as it is a source of conflict in the country. Laikaofsiberia (talk) Laikaofsiberia (talk) 17:17, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

|ans= Laikaofsiberia (talk) 16:21, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Occupied territory correction

Crimea is shown in light green and described as a territory prior to the 2022 Russian invasion. Crimea was occupied by Russia in 2014. 174.56.126.60 (talk) 14:30, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Crimea is still part of Ukraine as of 2023. It never stopped being sovereign Ukrainian territory. The Russian military is just illegally squatting there. 173.67.130.26 (talk) 19:57, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Mistakes to fix / Things to add

1. In the Culture section, change the link of Cossack songs from the nonexistent article Cossack's songs of Dnipropetrovsk Region to Cossack songs#Dnipropetrovsk region, Ukraine. Also, add a mention of the National List of Elements of the Intangible Cultural Heritage of Ukraine.
2. In the Literature section, change Kotlyarevsky to Kotliarevsky for consistency.
3. In the Cuisine section, correct the spellings of holubtsy to holubtsi, and kapusnyak to kapusniak. Remove buttermilk from the drinks list, as it is not even mentioned in the source. Instead, add riazhanka and soured milk, which are mentioned in the source. Also, as per the existing source and Українські Страви, holubtsi may include millet instead of rice, so that should be mentioned as well. Most of the ingredients for kapusniak that are listed are not always included, as kapusniak is a general cabbage soup that has many variations.

Shwabb1 (talk) 22:44, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2023

There are 3 typo. Please change

Following the death of Stalin in 1953, Nikita Khrushchev became the new leader of the USSR, who began the policies of De-Stalinization and the Khrushchev Thaw. During his term as head of the Soviet Union, Crimea was transferred from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR, formally as a friendship gift to Ukraine and for economic reasons.[128] This represented the final extension of Ukrainian territory and formed the basis for the internationally recognized borders of Ukraine to this day. Ukraine was one of the most important republics of the Soviet Union, which resulted in many top positions in the Soviet Union occupied by Ukrainians, including notably Leonid Brezhnev, General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union from 1964 to 1982. However, it was him and his appointee in Ukraine, Volodymyr Shcherbytsky, who presided over extensive Russification of Ukraine and who were instrumental in repressing a new generation of Ukrainian intellectuals known as the Sixtiers.[129]

to

Following the death of Stalin in 1953, Nikita Khrushchev became the new leader of the USSR, who began the policies of De-Stalinization and the Khrushchev Thaw. During his term as head of the Soviet Union, Crimea was transferred from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR, formally as a friendship gift to Ukraine and for economic reasons.[128] This represented the final extension of Ukrainian territory and formed the basis for the internationally recognized borders of Ukraine to this day. Ukraine was one of the most important republics of the Soviet Union, which resulted in many top positions in the Soviet Union being occupied by Ukrainians, including notably Leonid Brezhnev, General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union from 1964 to 1982. However, it was he and his appointee in Ukraine, Volodymyr Shcherbytsky, who presided over the extensive Russification of Ukraine and who were instrumental in repressing a new generation of Ukrainian intellectuals known as the Sixtiers.[129] Dominic872 (talk) 10:35, 21 July 2023 (UTC) Dominic872 (talk) 14:42, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done ULPS (talk) 17:21, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Muslim population

"Judaism, Islam, and Hinduism were the religions of 0.2% of the population each."

Many reliable mainstream news publications state that about ~1% of Ukrainians are Muslim (AP News, Al Jazeera, CNBC, France 24, Washington Post). United States Institute of Peace as well.

Any reliable figures from Ukrainian sources? Mooonswimmer 16:37, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 August 2023

Change "State A4nthem of Ukraine" in the info box to "State Anthem of Ukraine". TTWIDEE (talk) 09:33, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for the heads up. Rsk6400 (talk) 09:45, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

 Already done M.Bitton (talk) 09:55, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 August 2023

1 - This part about Industrial Revolution in Ukraine is not correct :

Ukraine, like the rest of the Russian Empire joined the Industrial Revolution later than most of Western Europe[75][failed verification] due to the maintenance of serfdom until 1861.[citation needed]

ABOVE STATEMENT IS NOT CORRECT and Has no sources. Actual facts - Ukraine in the 18th and 19th century was divided between two empires - Russian empire and the Habsburg empire, like the next source cited suggests. Industrial Revolution was a regional phenomenon and not something that has happened in the entire country at once. Quote from the source "The individual regions of the Ukraine differed greatly in their development because natural resources are unevenly distributed and because for centuries the territory of the modern country was in the hands of three different foreign powers. " https://www.erih.net/how-it-started/industrial-history-of-european-countries/ukraine

CHANGE THIS TEXT : Ukraine, like the rest of the Russian Empire joined the Industrial Revolution later than most of Western Europe[75][failed verification] due to the maintenance of serfdom until 1861.[citation needed]

TO THIS : Modern day Ukraine was divided between the two empires - Russian empire and the Habsburg empire, where a variety of industries have emerged. The first sign of industrialisation in Ukraine, appeared with the construction of the first iron rolling mill in Luhansk in 1795

2 - > This is MISINTERPRETATION aligned with the soviet propaganda about Ukraine, that before the soviets came, Ukraine was unplowed fields: Other than near the newly discovered coal fields of the Donbas, and in some larger cities such as Odesa and Kyiv, Ukraine largely remained an agricultural and resource extraction economy.[76]

Change THIS : Other than near the newly discovered coal fields of the Donbas, and in some larger cities such as Odesa and Kyiv, Ukraine largely remained an agricultural and resource extraction economy.[76]

TO THIS : Early enterprises in Ukraine were established in the 18th century, such as : a textile factory in Putyvl (Sumo region), Okhtyrka's tobacco manufacturing plant (1718) , sail-and-linen mills in Pochep and Sheptaky, a gunpowder plant in Shostka, and silk plants in Kyiv and Nizhyn.

In the Ukrainian regions of the Russian empire early mechanised factories grew rapidly in the 1820s-1860s. The growth of machanised plants and mills in the nine Ukrainian regions of the Russian empire between 1825 and 1860 grew from 674 to 2,709, with the number of industrial workers growing from 15,200 to 85,800, with a total increased output from 15.7 to 34.4 million rubles. Ukrainian plants made up 17% of Russian Empire's plants, with an 11.8% of production value. The most industrialised region of Ukraine within Russian Empire was Kyiv Gubernia, with accounted for 38 percent of Ukraine's workers and 42 percent of its output. Abolition of serfdom in 1861 lead to even greater pace of industrialisation in Ukraine, particularly boosted by the construction of railroads between 1870s and 1880s. Via the railroad coal from the Donbas and iron ore from the Kryvyi Rih could be transported for processing, which created growth in ferrous metallurgy and related industries. Cheaper rail transport facilitated for greater and faster delivery of grain, sugar, spirits, coal and rails to the ports of Odesa and Mykolaiv, where they were exported. When the rail connected Ukrainian right and left Dnipro banks, the regions were more economically integrated and started to advocate for their joint interests.

3 -> BELOW statement IS NOT ENTIRELY CORRECT :

Austrian part of Ukraine was particularly destitute, which forced hundreds of thousands of peasants into emigration < 

(The above part forgets to mention Boryslav Oil fields, more here: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boryslav#cite_note-4) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Petroleum_Trail))

> CHANGE THIS : Austrian part of Ukraine was particularly destitute, which forced hundreds of thousands of peasants into emigration

TO THIS: The Galician part of Ukraine that was ruled by Austria saw the beginning of global oil exploration on its territory, even though the region was one of the poorest in the Habsburg empire. Boryslav oil fields experienced a real oil boom in the mid 19th century. In 1861 in Boryslav, Robert Doms built one of the first oil rigs in the world. The oil fields saw the number of rigs grow from 4000 to 12000 in three years in the 1870s In the 1860s the first oil mining school in Europe was opened in Boryslav. The oils fields even contributed with its natural mineral wax to the insulation of the first trans-Atlantic telegraphic cable line. In 1909, 5% of World's oil was produced in Boryslav, ranking it as the third biggest producer of oil globally

The area around Boryslav became famous for quick creation of wealth and was known in the 19th century as "Galician California" It was one of the few area that was providing employment to the local jewish population, many of whom have worked as labourers, skilled workers and entrepreneurs in the oil industry. Lettashtohr (talk) 14:01, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

1.  Not done for now: The source says that the Luhansk mill was the first iron rolling mill in Ukraine, not necessarily the first instance of industrialization.
2.  Not done for now: I'm not sure about the reliability of the source provided, I'll wait and let other editors comment (leaving the request marked as "unanswered")
3.  Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. "JewishGen" appears to be self-published.

Edward-Woodrow :) _[talk] 21:08, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

1 - Reg. Luhansk Mill. Seeing other sources call it metal works, maybe its description needs adjusting. As for the date, Luhansk and Donetsk were founded by a Scotsman and Welshman in the times of early industrialisation. The city of Luhansk and its early factories was founded by Charles Gascoigne. Quote : " The city of Luhansk emerged in 1795 as Luhansky Zavod (“Luhan River’s Factory”) – a metal factory, founded by English industrialist Charles Gascoigne, with a settlement for its workers adjacent to Zaporizhzhian Cossacks settlement Kamianyi Brid. Both settlements merged about 90 years later in the city of Luhansk." https://euromaidanpress.com/2021/07/03/ukraines-new-york-child-of-a-tragic-love-story-of-european-industrialists-and-donbas/

more references to this info :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/05/09/the-surprising-british-origins-of-eastern-ukraine/

https://www.theweek.co.uk/news/world-news/russia/956580/the-battle-over-the-donbas-explained

https://www.johnkay.com/2022/04/22/scotland-and-ukraine/

Here also a very detailed history of the establishment of Luhansk :

https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1495244875616473094?lang=en

2- Do you mean the reliability of the Internet Encyclopedia of Ukraine?

3 - As for Boryslav Oil fields.

I provided a link to website with readable text, bc it's easier to look up. In the following book one can find similar information : Frank, Alison Fleig (2005). Oil empire: visions of prosperity in Austrian Galicia. Cambridge (Mass.): Harvard university press. ISBN 0-674-01887-7. Lettashtohr (talk) 12:11, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Should this article use more excerpts?

There is only one now. I think more would be useful to allow new editors to change non-contentious stuff Chidgk1 (talk) 08:49, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

OMG no.... Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries#Transclusions. Should be looking to improve the article with standalone prose text.Moxy- 11:44, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 August 2023

Change “)) is a country in Eastern Europe.” To )) is a disputed country in Eastern Europe. 2600:1700:5242:3010:507:FDAD:CF6C:A631 (talk) 20:48, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: pure nonsense. M.Bitton (talk) 21:48, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 August 2023

Add coordinates:

 {{Coord|49|48|N|30|50|E|type:country|display=title}} 

Wiki-ircecho (talk) 08:50, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Why? -Lemonaka‎ 17:35, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, all the other countries have coordinates. Wiki-ircecho (talk) 08:34, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done; broader coordinates of 49N 32E were already given in the infobox, I've edited that line to also put them in the title. --Belbury (talk) 08:38, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Why was the excerpt from Ukrainian diaspora replaced?

Hello @Moxy,

In your edit summary of replacing the excerpt with text you wrote "clean up attribution" but I don't understand. Can you explain please. Chidgk1 (talk) 17:57, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Expanded content and as per H:TRANSDRAWBACKS Moxy- 06:29, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Show the occupied territories of Ukraine on the map?

Don't want to start a flame war for this. However, considering the map on the Wikipedia page for Russia includes the occupied/annexed territories of Ukraine, why aren't they shown on this page for consistency? With the south-east of the country shaded light green like Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk are. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 20:34, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

The Russia map has been inconsistent with wider norms since 2014, so it's not a good example. As for this map, the territory in question has been subject to a hot war since even before the claims. The infobox is not a good place to map a hot war. CMD (talk) 02:43, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

But the Russian claims are solid, and are likely to be for a while. We don't necessarily have to show the front lines, but to display the Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts as being disputed might be best. It just seems odd to hold onto the 2014 map as if the situation hasn't drastically changed. RaiBrown1204 (talk) 05:10, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what makes claims solid or unsolid, but the frontline is still shifting due to war. Colouring the whole oblasts would be quite inconsistent, we don't usually show uncontrolled claims from other states in infobox maps. CMD (talk) 05:25, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

We should update the map with current approx frontlines. The conflict seem frozen, and 9 years old map is outdated. Beshogur (talk) 11:28, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose"Frontlines" are not national boundaries, and do not affect the definition of national territory as far as International Law is concerned. A specific map in the body of the article, showing the ongoing conflic with Russia, would be more appropriate. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 12:28, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

  "Russian-occupied territories of Ukraine prior to the 2022 Russian invasion" isn't a boundary either. We should keep people updated. national territory as far as International Law is concerned wikipedia isn't bound to international law. Beshogur (talk) 11:57, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support: The article should either stick with the internationally recognized borders or with the current ones (de facto), which did not change for almost a year at this point. Combining both the map of the internationally recognized borders and the map of the current frontline would also be a good decision. Showing the irrelevant status quo makes no sense whatsoever. CapLiber (talk) 14:20, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose, and switch to a Ukraine map. This is a locator map of Ukraine, an internationally recognized independent state since 1991, with stable borders since 1954, a founding member of the UN in 1945, a Soviet republic since 1922, and a nominally sovereign state since 1919. It should show its stable, defining boundaries. It is not this week’s war map, nor this year’s map of the Kremlin’s aspirations. We should switch it to a map showing only the boundaries of Ukraine. Rightfully or not, the reason the locator map of Russia shows non-Russian territories is because they are written into Russia’s constitution – that has nothing to do with this subject. The locator map of Ukraine should not be based on the Russian constitution, nor on Russian positions this this weekend, nor on what we have at this moment, which is showing the Russian occupation nineteen months ago. Reliable sources do not do this.[3][4]  —Michael Z. 00:16, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Then adding another map with uncontrolled territories (from 2014 and from 2022) should be a compromise. CapLiber (talk) 11:57, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

That would be late February 2015 to 2022, after Russian forces captured the city of Debaltseve. It’s actually already indicated on the map captioned “Russian-occupied territories of Ukraine as of 25 September 2023” as “frontlines at the start of the invasion.” The area could have a different colour and labelled “Russian occupied 2015–2022,” to be clearer.

We could also consider adding maps of the occupation of Crimea in February–March 2014, the oblasts where Russian-backed separatists tried to capture government buildings in April–May, territorial control in eastern Ukraine at the time of the destruction of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 in July, and the major battles of Ilovaisk in August–September and Debaltseve in January–February 2015. But the entire nine-year war is only covered by two paragraphs.  —Michael Z. 13:26, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Invasion OF Russia??

"... and finally, the full-scale invasion of Russia in starting from 24 February 2022"

Surely this must be:

"... and finally, the full-scale invasion by Russia starting from 24 February 2022" 51.155.204.30 (talk) 06:12, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

 Done Thanks. Rsk6400 (talk) 06:22, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

The date was linked to the Minsk Agreement which stipulated a cease fire, lasting as long as the agreement, i.e. to 22th February 2023.

When I had look on this page maybe 10 years ago, I counted 8 languages as spoken in Ukraine. That must have changed, all foreign speakers of Polish, Hungarian etc. emigrated? 2001:8003:A070:7F00:1111:CF3C:B4E0:25BF (talk) 03:20, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 September 2023

Romani people remain one of the most marginalized communities in Ukraine. Though the 2001 Census identified some 47,600 Roma gypsies in the country, rights groups have estimated the Roma number between 200,000 and 300,000; the Council of Europe, for example, estimates that they number approximately 260,000 in Ukraine. Add this information to the demographics section.

Source: https://minorityrights.org/country/ukraine/ 103.164.138.55 (talk) 21:50, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

 Done –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 22:26, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Economy

For the past year since the war but Ukraine per capita grew to 5200$ really? Even with all the devastation? Even Russia lost 2,000$. Many African countries have been downgraded and many stuck but Ukraine is growing faster??? This is a joke RickyBlair668 (talk) 08:39, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

If you are saying that the sources cited are incorrectly summarized, please detail the specfic errors. If the sources are accurately summarized, but are in error or you disagree with what they say, you will need to take that up with the sources, not us. You may also offer sources that you have with more current or what you deem more accurate information. 331dot (talk) 08:44, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it's high time we question the said sources as well using common sense because only people from certain countries and organizations have decided to only be the writers of these datas and even when we source datas from said countries; they are removed and we editors are banned. So keep that in mind. RickyBlair668 (talk) 08:49, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Estimate must be very rough because it will be hard for IMF to guess, for example, how many shells and drones the country will make in December. After 2023 has finished I think we should NOT change the infobox to estimates for 2024 but cite more accurate figures for 2023. Do you all agree? Chidgk1 (talk) 14:09, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Estimates are probably poor in any case, but what this article should not have is any sort of up or down arrows in the infobox. They're questionable in most circumstances (what timeframe do they refer to?), but particularly meaningless for a wartime economy in flux. CMD (talk) 02:33, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Religions in Ukraine

Change this (from the infobox):

• 87.3% Christianity
• 11.0% no religion
• 0.8% other
• 0.9% unanswered

Into this:

- 65.4 % orthodox

- 14.6 % Christianism

- 3.2 % other religions

- 17.0% unanswered.

A study in 2020 by Razumkov found that about 65.4% of the population claims to adhere to one of the branches of Orthodox Christianity (25% in the Kyiv Patriarchate, 21.2% "simply" Orthodox, 15% in the Moscow Patriarchate, 1.8% in the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, and 2% to other types of Orthodoxy), 7.1% "only" Christians, 6.5% to the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church, 1.9% to Protestantism, 1, 1% to Islam and 1.0% to Latin Catholicism. Judaism and Hinduism each make up 0.2% of the population.

16.3% say they are non-religious or do not identify with the religions mentioned.https://razumkov.org.ua/uploads/article/2019_Religiya.pdf

Other study by the Kiev International Institute of Sociology(KIIS):
	https://kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=1129

Laikaofsiberia (talk) 20:15, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

«Україна» is derived from «край» which does not only mean «edge»/«border», but also means «land»

Stating that «Україна» is derived from Russian «edge» (rus. «край») instead of Ukrainian «land» (ukr. «край») which sounds the same to Russian is at best counter intuitive. Do you agree?

It is also worth noting that in Ukrainian there is a word «країна» that also means «land» or even «state». I suppose, it is also derived from «край» and all the countries in Ukrainian are named with that word which further proves the theory that «land» is a more correct meaning of the word «край» to use because then every country would be just a border instead of a state. Fenimoure (talk) 12:21, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Lack of associations of the Zelensky regime with authoritarianism

Why is Zelensky's regime not considered authoritarian or at least a dominant party state when his regime banned 11 perceived pro-Russian parties and consolidated media power, but Putin's regime is considered an"authoritarian dictatorship" even though he didn't ban pro-Ukrainian parties in Russia?

No normal democracy would have banned its largest political party with the associations of "treason" when most of the parties banned by the regime primarily served their party interests rather than the Russian interests that the Zelensky regime accused them. LeonChrisfield (talk) 19:14, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

@LeonChrisfield: Please don't forget to sign your comments. And please read WP:RS, WP:NOR, and WP:SYNTH. Rsk6400 (talk) 19:05, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Jacobin and NPR are reliable news sources on the WP:RS list. There was no justification for reverting my edit. LeonChrisfield (talk) 19:16, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

There are thousands of RS, not only news, but also scholarly sources (e.g. the lectures of Timothy Snyder) describing Ukraine in a different way. And at least your npr source doesn't describe Ukraine as "authoritarian" or "dominant party state". That's why I mentioned those guidelines, especially WP:SYNTH. Rsk6400 (talk) 19:30, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

The NPR source says nothing about a “dominant party system”. In fact several of the journalists interviewed express support for various policies as necessary in time of war. I didn’t look at Jacobin because it wouldn’t be RS for this. Volunteer Marek 19:36, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

What Leon is trying to say is that the article should mention the fact that Zelensky has banned pro-russian parties. This is a fact, and concluding on wether his regime is « authoritarian » or a « dominant party state » remains an interpretation. Saying that Russia is currently not an autocracy because Ukraine isn’t is just a biased view on a small amount information (that Ukraine has banned parties but not Russia). Laikaofsiberia (talk) 20:20, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I think it's LeonChrisfield's job to explain what they are "trying to say". Rsk6400 (talk) 20:40, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

What are you talking about? LeonChrisfield said that these parties were pro-russian. Laikaofsiberia (talk) 17:09, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Treaty

Way do you not have the treaty between Russia and Ukraine as part of this article? 38.145.148.195 (talk) 03:13, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

This is a high level overview article - for more details see History of Ukraine and it would be great if you could improve it if you have reliable sources. Chidgk1 (talk) 16:39, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Change/Fix the category Etymology and orthography, as it doesn't match the origin of the article "Name of Ukraine"

Following the article "Name of Ukraine", the word Ukraine comes from "land", not "borderland". Since the origin is from "land" has provided more resources and valid arguments in that article. Please, fix it Valentyn Holod (talk) 22:20, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

While this comment has validity, there are also multiple interpretations, so it seems worthwhile to add additional information to place these multiple interpretations in context as the meaning has different views. While some do hold that Ukraine simply means "land", others hold that it is defined by its relations. The root word has multiple meanings, and you are right to point out that the current entry lacks nuance. Additionally, for further context it would seem worthwhile to add more recent interpretation of this name relating Ukraine as the gates of Europe (pp. xxiii-xxvi). BowTieTuba (talk) 21:33, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

The word "ukraina" only means "borderland" in Russian, not in Ukrainian or Old Slavic. The long historical assumption of this etymology being valid is based on the long-time dominance of tsarist Russian and then Soviet sources, and suppression of Ukrainian sources. In all likelihood, that meaning was completely fabricated by the tsars in order to assert their claimed status as the true inheritors of Rus', and demote Ukraine to being a mere periphery of Rus'. When the truth was the opposite, it was Kyiv that was the center of Rus' and Moscow the periphery. — Red XIV ^(talk) 01:49, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Under the section, "Etymology and orthography," the article currently states, "The name of Ukraine likely comes from the old Slavic term for 'borderland', as does the word krajina." This statement has only one reference, from the magazine the Economist. There are at least three sources in the longer description in Name of Ukraine which support your claims, and provides better detail. Thus, while abridging content for the main Ukraine article is appropriate, the current article appears to be misleading and false in its definitive statement that the Slavic term for Ukraine means "borderland," because though some may think this, there are at least three trustworthy sources that do not.

On the main Ukraine article, there is currently only one sentence on the etymology of Ukraine (quoted above in its entirety), and five sentences on usage of the grammatical article "the" before Ukraine. There is certainly room in this section to expand the one sentence on the meaning of Ukraine to more accurately convey current scholarship.

I agree with you that the section on "Etymology and orthography" in the article, Ukraine should be revised to more accurately convey current scholarship regarding the origin of the name, Ukraine, albeit perhaps still in a more abbreviated format than the main article, Name of Ukraine.

Because this article is protected, it may take greater consensus from other users to change this section. BowTieTuba (talk) 07:01, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

This is a proposed edit request of the first paragraph of the Etymology and orthography section, with text copied from Name of Ukraine:

−

The name of Ukraine likely comes from the [[old Slavic]] term for 'borderland', as does the word ''[[krajina]]''.

+

The name of Ukraine is frequently interpreted as coming from the [[old Slavic]] term for 'borderland', as is the word ''[[krajina]]''.Yet, the name of Ukraine has been interpreted both as "borderland" and as "region, country." The generally "accepted" and frequently used meaning of the word as "borderland" has increasingly been challenged by revision, motivated by self-asserting of identity. Linguist Hryhoriy Pivtorak (2001) argues that ''Ukraine'' had been used as a term for their own territory by the [[Ukrainian Cossacks]] of the [[Zaporozhian Sich]] since the 16th century, and that the conflation with ''okraina'' "borderlands" was a creation of tsarist Russia.

BowTieTuba (talk) 07:35, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it would be a good suggestion. Ukraine in the sense of "borderland" is not an invention of tsarist propaganda, since the name appeared long before Ukraine was subordinated to Moscow. In the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the Ruthenian term "ukraina" was used to describe every borderland. Marcelus (talk) 10:04, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The issue other users have raised is that the meaning of Ukraine is presently disputed, a fact which is not represented in the current article that asserts only one translation, based on a single source. The dispute is more clearly addressed in greater detail in the associated article, Name of Ukraine. While you may agree with the interpretation of Ukraine as "borderland", there is other research that translates it instead as "land" or "country", a fact which should be represented in this article, although perhaps in a more abbreviated form as further detail regarding the linguistics can be found in the Name of Ukraine article. BowTieTuba (talk) 00:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

As this article is at a high level, this proposed edit addresses the two academic interpretations from the associated name of Ukraine article without excess detail, as the topic is covered in greater depth at name of Ukraine:

{TextDiff|The name of Ukraine likely comes from the old Slavic term for 'borderland', as does the word krajina.|The name of Ukraine is frequently interpreted as coming from the old Slavic term for 'borderland' as is the word krajina. Another interpretation is that the name of Ukraine means "region" or "country." }} BowTieTuba (talk) 00:32, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Proposed edit:

−

The name of Ukraine likely comes from the [[old Slavic]] term for 'borderland', as does the word ''[[krajina]]''.

+

The [[name of Ukraine]] is frequently interpreted as coming from the [[old Slavic]] term for 'borderland' as is the word ''[[krajina]].'' Another interpretation is that the [[name of Ukraine]] means "region" or "country."

BowTieTuba (talk) 00:35, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

References

The population given in the infobox is umbiguous

It is not stated if the 33 million is within the 1991 border or the current border. I think we should add a second source which makes a distinction of that.

This source has makes such a distinction.

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/ukraines-demography-second-year-full-fledged-war

172.98.147.246 (talk) 23:25, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

re: "1991 border or the current border", Did the borders of Ukraine change when I wasn't looking?  // Timothy :: talk  00:42, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

In the same infobox Ukraine's area is listed as 603 thousand pre war and 484 thousand currently controlled by Kiev government.

The same idea should be applied to population. List the population in the pre war border and list the population in the area currently controlled by Kiev government. To make it consistent.

168.91.58.244 (talk) 07:19, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

A single private report using “so-called ‘2022 borders’” is not the basis for what’s shown in a country infobox. The borders are the borders, not temporary and constantly changing invasion lines.

Thanks for bringing to our attention the problematic area and population rows. It shouldn’t only have an estimate of population during the conflict extracted from some excel file, but Ukraine’s last census figure and latest estimate of the permanent population.  —Michael Z. 16:35, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 January 2024

Suggested source for the [citation needed] in the "Health" section under "Demographics" re: the demographic crisis Ukraine faces: https://phys.org/news/2023-04-dying-ukrainian-voices-depopulation-crisis.html Vxcheng (talk) 06:07, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Added with tweak per that source, shifting the cn as it did not cover the whole text. CMD (talk) 06:19, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

The Ukraine map on the globe in the article should have two colors

Right now it is shaded in dark green color. There should be two colors. The dark green should be for the territory controlled by Kiev government. The territory annexed by Russia and claimed by Kiev government should be colored in light green. Sort of like how Taiwan is shaded light green on the China map on the globe in the China page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China

216.165.212.4 (talk) 14:25, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

The history of ukraine is incomplete, 1783 was it not incorporated into russia?

In 1783 with Cossack army abolished and serfdom introduced, Hetmanate was fully incorporated into Russian Empire. 31.111.62.38 (talk) 18:26, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 April 2024 (2)

185.12.14.2 (talk) 19:50, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Я хочу изменить шрифт на более выразительный в статье "Ukraine"

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.

Also, please post in English on the English Wikipedia (alternatively you can edit Ukrainian Wikipedia). Jamedeus (talk) 20:14, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 April 2024

178.67.192.192 (talk) 14:17, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

editprotected "Ukraine"

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 14:23, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Ukraine driving side

In the quick facts section it's stated that the driving side is on the right, having been there on numerous occasions, people drive on the left in Ukraine . Thanks for correcting Naguizz (talk) 22:43, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I think you may be misunderstanding what is meant by driving side. This parameter refers to which side of the road the vehicles are on, not which side of the vehicle the driver sits on. In countries where they drive on the right, the driver sits on the left (and vice versa). --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:06, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: You provide no sources and a quick Google search shows this is incorrect.  // Timothy :: talk  23:30, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Gibberish description of the Internet

The article currently states "The internet in the country is robust because it is diverse." but this doesn't really mean anything.

The Internet is robust. It is robust because of redundancy. The Internet is not geographically correlated, though. Even if more servers are provisioned from America, that is transparent to end users. So saying "The internet in the country" is meaningless; even if there are no servers in the Ukrainian countryside and few servers in Ukrainian cities, The Internet itself neither notices nor cares and it continues to be robust regardless of physical or political borders.

Saying "because it is diverse" is vague; is it referring to how The Internet exchanges data via UDP (which is less reliable) as well as IPv4 and IPv6? The Internet being robust is not anything special to do with Ukraine but is a property arising from its location-agnostic design.

Please reword this statement to get away from series of tubes-like handwavium. 49.180.106.148 (talk) 11:35, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

You could use WikiBlame to see who wrote that but I am pretty sure it was me. And probably you or someone else can suggest a better wording? Chidgk1 (talk) 17:30, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Sure! What is the main idea you wanted to convey with that sentence? Or if you were wanting to contrast the facts with expectations, or with other countries, etc. what should the reader be impressed with? 49.180.106.148 (talk) 04:50, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

I have now deleted the sentence Chidgk1 (talk) 17:43, 7 February 2024 (UTC)