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Pashtuns

– Discussion in progress.


Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

Users involved

Dispute overview

The User:Krzyhorse22 has removed the photos of Pashtun Presidents of Pakistan and Pashtun Forien Minister of Pakistan. But he insists on the photos of non-Pashtun Indian actresses with Indian actor Shah Rukh Khan to be added in the Pashtuns page. Are photos of Indian actors and actresses more important than the Pashtun Presidents of Pakistan in the Pashtuns page ? If so then why do the photos of Pashtun Presidents of Afghanistan are also there in Pahtuns page. The Indian actresses Anushka Sharma and Katrina Kaif are not even Pashtuns ! The photo of just Shah Rukh Khan by himself can be added but not with the non-Pashtun Indian actresses. Like we have the photo of just Indian actor Saif Ali Khan in the Pashtuns page. I am going to move this issue to the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard and Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring if you persist in adding photos of non-Pashtun Indian actresses and remove photos of Pashtun Presidents of Pakistan. Thanks

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Discussed on this talk page and Pashtun talk page

How do you think we can help?

The Pashtuns page should have photos of all Pashtun that have reached high political positions. The photos Pashtun Presidents of Pakistan and Foriegn Minister are being deleted while Indian actor who may be ethnically Pashtun with non-Pashtun actresses is being added. While there are several photos of Afghan Pashtun Presidents. This page is about all Pashtuns not just Afghan Pashtuns.

Summary of dispute by Krzyhorse22

User:WikiBulova is being disruptive, he seems to have a problem with people from India. He appeared for the first time at this article and began removing the pictures of all the young famous Bollywood stars who have ethnic Pashtun background, which is well sourced and verified by editors in the past. Instead, he filled the article with bald headed old Pakistani men whos ethnicity cannot be verified. See [1]--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 01:03, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Pashtuns discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Hi there, I'm Steve, one of the volunteers here at DRN. Taking a look at the talk page, I think I have a perspective on the situation here and some feedback, however I would like to hear from Krzyhorse22 before I open this up for further discussion. (Other volunteers, if I for some reason drop off the face of the earth for a day or two and the case still hasn't had any commentary, can this be closed as insufficient discussion? Steven Crossin (was Steven Zhang) 00:49, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

User:Krzyhorse22 Well ! The bald headed old man was a ethnic Pashtun and President of Pakistan while your pretty young Indian actresses are not Pashtuns. Last time I checked both ethnic Pashtun Afghan Presidents Hamid Karzai and Ashraf Ghani were also bald old men. Have they grown hair and became younger lately ? WikiBulova (talk) 01:21, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Alright. let's cut this off right here. I'd like us to focus on the issue at hand rather than each other, so I will start by asking only for links to the relevant discussions where the previous infobox images were decided on, and the discussion where the change to these images was discussed and agreed on (and no other comments, please, solely these links). Thank you. Steven Crossin (was Steven Zhang) 01:54, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Sorry Steve, I apologize. Just our esteemed friend User:Krzyhorse22 commented about excluding bald headed old and adding the young famous Bollywood stars and just made sarcastic joke. I again apologize. Nonetheless, the article is about accomplished Pashtuns who speak Pashto and not a beauty contest of actors and actresses. WikiBulova (talk) 02:25, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for apologising, I hope we can keep things on track. That said, changes to Wikipedia do require a consensus among editors - it's what makes this site relatively stable, if we just make changes all over the place without discussing them, then well Wikipedia will become the mess that some members of the public think it is. Now, I imagine at one point there was a discussion regarding the original images in the infobox. I thank you for your comments, but at this time (as they are the advocate for keeping the infobox images the way they were) ask that WikiBulova point me to the original discussion/s where the infobox images were decided. Once we have that, I'll continue the discussion (I'd ask that comments apart from the ones I have asked for wait until after I've opened up this for more discussion). Thanks. Steven Crossin (was Steven Zhang) 02:40, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Are you talking about this discussion, Steve? --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 02:47, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Took a glance at that, but it's a bit of a mess when I look at the discussion (a lot of insults, etc - definitely not the sort of decorum I expect.) I'll keep reading it over, thanks. Steven Crossin (was Steven Zhang) 02:53, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Comment: Honestly, I'm not following the actual technical problems of this discussion too closely. This dispute looks to have been enabled by a lack of respectful atmosphere on the article's talk page. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 02:58, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
The images in the infobox is not the issue. WikiBulova specifically removed the images of widely recognized Pashtuns who are from India (i.e., Shah Rukh Khan and Saif Ali Khan) from the article's body and replaced them with more Pakistani politicians (Sartaj Aziz and Ghulam Ishaq Khan). First, the Ghulam's image by policy is not allowed in the Pashtun article. [2] Second, Sartaj Aziz's ethnicity is unproven and he is not widely recognized as Pashtun, it's word of mouth only. WikiBulova is doing WP:OR by claiming he is Pashtun. The basic rule is that we must first verify someone's ethnicity before adding such claim in the Pashtun article. This has been discussed many times in the article's talk page in the past. Third, WikiBulova doesn't like to see the two popular Indian actresses standing next to Shah Rukh Khan, who are often seen as lovers in Bollywood films. WikiBulova prefers an image with him being alone. Notice that in the same article Zalmay Khalizad appears with former U.S. President George W. Bush [3] and Malala Yousefzai with current U.S. President Obama and his family [4] but this didn't affect WikiBulova. Therfore, he clearly has a problem with people from India, meaning he is racist toward a particular group. I, on the other hand, think that having the two popular Indian actresses standing next to Shah Rukh Khan is helpful in the article because it expresses his popularity in India, in Bollywood films, and particularly with Indian women, the same way the expression of importance is given to Malala with Obama, Khalilzad with Bush at the White House, and Bacha Khan with Mahatma Gandhi.[5] This obviously doesn't mean Obama, Bush and Gandhi are Pashtuns.--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 11:17, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Pashtuns have been migrating and settling in Delhi Sultanate and later Mughal Empire for last 800 years. These Pashtun have lost their language and culture after few generations and have been assimilated in the local Urdu culture and are now known as Pathans. There is a clear distinction between Pashto speaking Pashtuns and non-Pashto speaking Pathans claiming Pashtun heritage but cannot speak Pashto language for many generations. There also people who also adopted Khan family name that does not mean they are Pashtuns. There are millions of Pathans in Pakistan and India. There can be two pages one for the Pashtuns who speak Pashto and other for the Pathans who have lost ability to speak Pashto for many generations. The people must make distinction between Pashtuns and Pathans which may be the cause of conflict here. The Pathans page is being redirected to Pashtuns page and it could resurrected for Pathan community of Pakistan and India. There are 31 million Pashtuns in Pakistan and only 13 million in Afghanistan and they are under represented in Pashtun page. I am not being racist, I am just indicating that Pashtun page should have photos of Pashtun people and Indian actors and actresses are not Pashtuns but could be Pathans. Why are Pashtuns from Pakistan are being Pakistanis while the Indian actors who can't even speak Pashto are being ethnic Pashtuns ? By the way, I don't see User:Krzyhorse22 apologising for his comment insulting bald old people. I would be making this report separately if it is not being discussed here. On personal note, My maternal family also claims to be Pashtuns but can't speak Pashto so they are Pathans but not Pashtuns. In the Shah Rukh Khan's page it clearly indicates he had Pathan father and Hyderabadi mother not clearly Pashtuns. The followings are URLs where Shah Rukh Khan claims to be Pathan and NOT Pashtuns. How SRK’s Pathan father fell in love with his South Indian mother Also look at these pages: Pathans of Punjab, Pathans of Rajasthan, Pathans of Uttar Pradesh, Pathans of Bihar, Pathans of Gujarat and Rohilla. Thsese are Pathans who claim Pashtun heritage. WikiBulova (talk) 14:44, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Then why you keep putting images of non-Pashto speaking Pakistanis (Ayun Khan, Sartaj Aziz, Ghulam Ishaq Khan) in Pashtun article? [6] SRK's father was born and grew up in Peshawar, he was a Pashto-speaking ethnic Pashtun. SRK's father's father was from Afghanistan. [7] They spoke Urdu? Maybe Chinese? Every native person of Peshawar speaks Pashto, they identify selves as "Pashtuns" (not Pathans). Pashtun ethnicity is inherited through father (not mother), and it is not defined by the use of Pashto language. There are a number of white Americans who learned Pashto and can speak it fluently (search in YouTube), are these white Americans Pashtuns? Why should I apologize for describing someone as a bald old Pakistani? Should I call him a young non-bald American instead?--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 18:14, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
You want [8] to be accepted as reference in Wikipedia then let the Administrators decide it. There are also as you put it "bald old men" in the Pashtuns page like Bacha Khan, Mahatma Gandhi, Hamid Karzai and Ashraf Ghani but you only choose to insult Ghulam Ishaq Khan. If you want to accept all the Pathans as Pashtuns then you will have at least 80 million in Pakistan, 20 million in India, 13 Million in Afghanistan, 3 million in Bangladesh, etc. What do you think is the difference between words Pathan and Pashtun ? In India and Pakistan, Pathan is a person who speaks Urdu language and his ancestors may have been Pashtuns. Well, People learning second language is different from their mother tongue. Lets us look at the Rohilla Pashtuns, who were the last pure Pashtun dynasty in North India and were defeated and ethnically cleansed by the British and remaining later assimilated in Urdu speaking community. Rohillas were attacked by the neighbouring kingdom of Oudh, who also received assistance from the British East India Company forces under Colonel Alexander Champion. This conflict is known as the Rohilla War. When Hafiz Rahmat Khan Barech was killed, in April 1774, Rohilla resistance crumbled, and Rohilkhand was annexed by the kingdom of Oudh. Rohillas fled into the dense forests across the Ganges, and later began a guerilla war. In response, many Rohillas were hunted down by the troops of British East India company and subsequently scattered in the countryside. They settled in many small towns and cities. Charges of ethnic cleansing and genocide were brought against Warren Hastings of the East India Company, by Edmund Burke and were later taken up by Thomas Babington Macaulay. Rohilla even escaped to Nepal but British forced Nepal to extradite Rohilla Pashtuns. The whole of Rohilkhand (including Bareilly, Pilibhit and Shahjanpur) was surrendered to the East India Company by the treaty of November 10, 1801. That date marks the transformation of last remaining Pashtuns in Northern India into Pathans.

WikiBulova (talk) 18:48, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I know about these people more than you. It is undisputable fact that these were/are non-Pashto speaking Pakistanis. See here The population figures are only guesses, not allowed in Wikipedia. All Pakistanis use Urdu. Bottom line, to put someone in Pashtun article you must cite a reliable source where the ethnicity can be verified. Dead links cannot be used and doing WP:OR is not allowed. About the YouTube video, it has been used in his article for years. [9] That's him explaining (clearly and in detail) to the world that his father's father was from Afghanistan, why don't you accept it?--Krzyhorse22 (talk) 22:34, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
More than 91% Pakistani do not speak Urdu as mother tongue. It is used as national language since it was used as inter-community language since the British Raj in 1857. Languages in Pakistan are: Punjabi 44.17%, Pashto 15.44%, Sindhi 14.12%, Saraiki 10.42%, Urdu 7.59% and Balochi 3.59%. Languages of Pakistan. Actually the Indian actors and actresses are non-Pashto speaking Pathans and not Pashto Pashtuns. While in Afghanistan, Persian used as inter-community language and not Pashto. WikiBulova (talk) 01:14, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Muhammad Ayub Khan". Story of Pakistan. Archived from the original on 17 March 2010. Retrieved 29 April 2010.
  2. ^ Lyon, Peter (2008). Conflict between India and Pakistan: An Encyclopedia. ABC-CLIO. p. 23. ISBN 978-1-57607-712-2. Retrieved 22 August 2010.
  3. ^ Hussain, Rizwan (2005). Pakistan and the emergence of Islamic militancy in Afghanistan. Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. p. 74. ISBN 978-0-7546-4434-7. Retrieved 22 August 2010.
  4. ^ Jaffrelot, Christophe (2004). A history of Pakistan and its origins. Anthem Press. p. 69. ISBN 978-1-84331-149-2. Retrieved 22 August 2010.
  5. ^ a b "Senate of Pakistan – Sartaj Aziz". Senate of Pakistan. Retrieved 2010-09-05.
  6. ^ Profile of National Security Adviser (Profile of National Security Adviser). "Profile of National Security Adviser". Profile of National Security Adviser. Retrieved 15 May 2014. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
  7. ^ Staff report (28 October 2006). "Obituary: Ghulam Ishaq Khan". Telegraph. Retrieved 19 October 2012.
  8. ^ Herald, Pakistan. "Ghulam Ishaq Khan". Press biographical sketch of Pakistan Herald. Pakistan Herald. Retrieved 19 October 2012.
  9. ^ Cite error: The named reference newPaper_dawn was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
Hi all. Haven't forgotten about this, just got a tad on today and will revisit this tomorrow. Steven Crossin (was Steven Zhang) 01:41, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

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