Jump to content

User talk:Clovermoss/Archive 8

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 5Archive 6Archive 7Archive 8Archive 9Archive 10→Archive 13

Question from Yung Cadet Space Boy (22:46, 9 October 2022)

Hello can I create my own article --Yung Cadet Space Boy (talk) 22:46, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Yung Cadet Space Boy Hi and welcome to Wikipedia. If you're talking about creating an article about yourself, that's not the best idea. I'd encourage you to try editing something else. The best advice for creating an article can be found here. Keep in mind that no one "owns" an article that they start, it's free to be edited by anyone. Also, a friendly reminder that Wikipedia is not be used for promotion, but is meant to be a neutral encylcopedia about notable topics.
A lot of the time, it's a bit easier to improve articles before you create one. There's a lot of articles that are only a sentence or two that are considered notable by our guidelines that can easily be expanded. Personally, I typically like trying to improve Canadian content. If you tell me an interest of yours, I can try to help you find an article that matchs it.
If you have any other questions or need me to clarify anything, feel free to come back here. Clovermoss (talk) 00:35, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Question from Shugg670987 (23:34, 10 October 2022)

Hello, how do I publish my draft? --Shugg670987 (talk) 23:34, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi Shugg670987 and welcome to Wikipedia. Sorry for the delay, it was thanksgiving for me yesterday and I was spending time with friends. I assume you're talking about Draft:Adam Ormsby? This page explains a lot about drafts if you're curious, but I've added a template for you that has a button you can press to submit the draft for someone else to review.
Reading this page about creating new articles may be informative. While it sounds like Ormsby makes interesting Minecraft parody songs, to have an article on Wikipedia he would have to meet our notability guidelines. The best way to ensure that is to have three sources that are independant and reliable that talk about his work in-depth. It may be the case that you cannot find sources like this no matter how hard you try. While that can definitely be disappointing, there's still plently else you could do here. There's a wikiproject dedicated to improving YouTube-related topics: Wikipedia:WikiProject YouTube. Maybe you'd find it interesting? There's also Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games.
If you need me to clarify anything or any other questions, feel free to come back here and ask whenever. Clovermoss (talk) 13:18, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Some JW sources

Hello Clover,

As this isn't strictly about the RfC you brought up on the JW congregational discipline page, I thought it would make more sense to talk to you here. I just thought I'd be able to bring some sources from outside the JW's to your attention.

George Chryssides: Jehovah's Witnesses: A New Introduction. This is a basic book that for someone who has studied the Witnesses will seem a bit simple, but still worth having.

--Jehovah's Witnesses: Continuity and Change. This book is a bit more in depth but my problem with it is that it's a bit too deferential to the JW's.
--And while it's a site you have to pay for, Chryssides in particular has uploaded a number of his articles onto academia.edu, so it might be worth checking that out.

Zoe Knox: Jehovah's Witnesses and the Secular World From the 1870s to the Present. A very academic book that can be a bit thick for people who aren't used to reading it, but well researched. I can knit pick a few things if necessary but overall a good book to have.

Emily B. Baran: Dissent on the Margins: How Soviet Jehovah's Witnesses Defied Communism and Lived to Preach About It. An excellent work that, obviously, focuses on the Soviet Union and the JW community there.

I assume you know about M. James Penton's Apocalypse Delayed, but you might also be interested in his Jehovah’s Witnesses in Canada: Champions of Freedom of Speech and Worship and also Jehovah's Witnesses and the Third Reich: Sectarian Politics under Persecution.

Definitely get Franz's Crisis of Conscience.

Anyway, that's just a few. Cheers! Vyselink (talk) 08:37, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, Vyselink. It means a lot to me, truly. I think I'll slowly add all those books to my collection :) I actually did purchase a copy of Jehovah's Witnesses: A New Introduction (it just hasn't arrived in the mail yet), I assumed some of it would seem very obvious to me, but I thought it'd be useful for thinking about what's vital to know from a non-JW perspective and filling in some of the gaps that I might have. There's aspects I think I wouldn't know much about if it goes into detail about things like advanced privileges. The most I was ever able to do was put in pioneer-level hours during my summer vacations (I remember being so proud about filling in my field service reports) and be on the stage with those householder scenerios with other sisters. I had several return visits and even helped conduct a Bible Study when I was 12, although looking back I mainly think about in a 'I was really good at knowing what to say but not actually understanding or thinking about my beliefs that much' way. I stopped believing when I was 13 and I refused to attend meetings after that so I don't think certain aspects of doctrine are as familar to me as other former JWs. My living situation changed dramatically around that time (which was how I was able to get away with not attending meetings) so that was an interesting way to start my teenage years. I think it helps that one of my parents is disfellowshipped, I don't know how people ever make it completely alone. I went from everything I did being so vital to feeling like my identity was completely shattered and then just trying really hard to fit in and be normal but not quite ever actually being able to. I was an absolute goody-two shoes by most people's standards so it was a really weird dichotomy to have that but also feel so much guilt for not being good enough by JW standards. For the longest time I tried to mostly just act like nothing ever happened. I'm 20 now (I actually had birthday cake for the first time this year) – life's changed but I still haven't completely moved on, I think. Sometimes everything bothers me so much more than at other times. That's part of the reason I want to understand what I even used to believe more... sometimes it feels so surreal because I'm just so different now. I think I'm a much better person than I used to be, though. Clovermoss (talk) 10:27, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

No problems Clover. As someone who also grew up in the JW's I can empathize with your experience to a degree. I personally never believed, and I made it VERY clear that this was so throughout my life. I went through a Bible Study with a local brother, who was a very kind man that I still respect to this day and think of fondly even though he died many years ago. I continued to attend meetings until the day I moved out of my mother's home when I was 18 out of respect for her, but while I never caused any trouble (just from my own devices I have never smoked, drank, or done drugs as I'm just not interested) I also never shied away from responding to JW's assertions that their path was the right one with questions and thoughts of my own. I wish you the best of luck in your path and healing. Vyselink (talk) 06:15, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

@Vyselink: I definitely used to believe. I was one of the "exemplary young ones" that the CO brought up on a visit once, lol. I went in field service with him and his wife and she said that I could be like her someday. Even at the time I felt conflicted about that because I had always aspired for more even though I knew I wasn't meant to. I remember wishing that I was born a boy so that I could be like others my age and give the micophrone to commentors at the meeting, that sort of thing. An aunt gifted me a headscarf in case I needed a head covering someday and that meant something to me. I kept it in my service bag for the longest time.
Anyways, most of my massive reading list has arrived. I tried to use one of the books to fill in what I percieved as a very obvious gap on the main Jehovah's Witnesses article. It didn't really seem like there was any content about how women and men have different roles within the organization? I tried to remedy that. Thoughts? I'm sure there is something I could be doing better here. I'm under the impression you have the book too so maybe you have some specific advice? Is there something you would do differently? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:11, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
@Levivich: I know I've brought this up before but I keep feeling concerned that maybe I'm doing something wrong here since obviously all of this matters to me on a personal level. I try my best to be neutral but I worry sometimes that it's impossible for me to be. Do you have any advice on this? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:11, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
Whenever I'm researching a broad topic (like JW) that I'm unfamiliar with, I go hunting for "The Most Recent Seminal Work in the Field" aka "The Big Work" -- the work that everyone else publishing in the field seems to cite in every paper.
For example, when I was expanding Syrian Kurdistan, I started by reading the most recent academic publications, which I found by just searching GScholar for "Syrian Kurdistan" with the date restricted to the last couple years. I looked at what those publications were citing, particularly in their introduction/overview/history sections. I noticed everyone cited a book called "A Modern History of the Kurds" by David McDowall; the book was originally published in 1996, its third edition was published in 2004. When I was doing my research, in late 2019, it seemed everyone cited "McDowall 2004", both pro-Kurdish and pro-Syrian sources. (In 2021, the 4th edition was published.) Here is a write-up from the London School of Economics that calls it a "ground-breaking modern history of the Kurds". The problem with that book, though, was that in 2019, the most-recent version was from 2004, before the Syrian Civil War started in 2011, which meant that the book was very much out-of-date, and I had to look at more recent sources to get up-to-date information. But still, that was The Seminal Work, with over 2,000 GScholar citations.
As another example, in Genocide studies, The Recent Seminal Work (or at least, A Recent Seminal Work) is Adam Jones (Canadian scholar)'s 2017 Genocide: A comprehensive introduction. Over 1,000 GS citations.
Typically, I find The Recent Seminal Work is (1) published by a top academic publisher, (2) written/edited by a "famous" scholar (usually wiki-notable, often already has a wiki article), (3) cited by the vast majority of very recent publications (within the past 1-3 years), (4) on its 2nd edition or later (good books get updated and reissued), and (5) has a huge number of GS cites, like over 1,000. It's like "the work you can't get away from" when researching the topic because it's cited again and again.
For JW, there are probably multiple works like this. And they may not be the most-recent, updated works, but I feel these "Recent Seminal Works" are pretty good for giving the traditional, mainstream, scholarly view of any given topic. It's the "orthodoxy" in the field. If you find three Seminal Works about JW, summarizing those three works will probably give you a very solid, NPOV-compliant foundation for writing an encyclopedia article.
Now, it wouldn't surprise me that Seminal Works would have gaps. For example, gender roles in JW. McDowall 2004, ironically called "A Modern History of the Kurds" was great for a pre-2004 history of the Kurds, but in 2019, it did not actually provide a modern history any longer. Similarly, Jones 2007 is a widely-cited work about genocide in general, but it spends very little time talking about mass killings under communist regimes (MKUCR) specifically, and so was not as helpful for that particular article. The Recent Seminal Work for MKUCR is probably The Black Book of Communism from 1997. That fits all of my criteria above, yet it's a work that has been heavily criticized in the past 25 years; it represents the orthodoxy, but in a field where the orthodoxy has been strongly challenged. So my little method is not at all perfect.
But I would suggest reviewing recent scholarship about JW and seeing if you can identify seminal works that everyone is citing (which I think you already have, with Vyse's suggestions above, plus what you've already found). You should be able to put together a list of like 3-5 of the Biggest Names in the Field and their Seminal Works, and that should give you a good foundation to identify what the established, mainstream scholarly views are about the subject. You may then need to supplement that with more-recent or more-specialized works, e.g. about the role of women in the church, just as McDowall 2004 had to be supplemented with more-recent scholarship about recent historical events, and Jones 2017 had to be supplemented with more-specific scholarship focusing on communist regimes.
Hope this helps? Levivich (talk) 19:52, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
@Levivich It does. Wow that is a lot more detailed than I was expecting. I was just worried about actually being on the right path here. I still am, honestly, worried that maybe I'd have a tendency to lean a bit too much towards criticism of the religion due to my personal experiences? But at the same time I want to try and remedy obvious gaps like the gender roles section that didn't exist before today because omissions like that are kind of misleading if someone isn't already familar with the JWs. I guess I just worry that content I add will be misleading in itself. Maybe part of my existential crisis here is that apostates are "mentally diseased" liars so maybe that's impacted my pysche, I don't know. There's a reason I was mostly staying away from JW-related things while editing here. But I feel like there's something deeply wrong about what I'm doing even though logically it doesn't seem that bad? But then I worry that I actually am somehow being unfair about it all.
I have a collection of books going on right now so it seems like that's a step in the right direction. I just have to actually read them all. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:02, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Clover. First you don't need to ping me as I have your talkpage on my watch list so I'll know when you respond here. Second I would have to know which book you are talking about to give you any specifics on it. As for the men/women roles within the organization, you're right that it isn't talked about much, unless there is something new that does so that I don't know about. Chryssides in "Continuity and Change" has a page on it and Penton goes into it a bit in "Apocalypse". But the reason why not much is done is because the JW's make it very clear what the women's roles are. It's not a source of contention as it might be for Catholics or Protestants because there is no "liberalisation" of the JW's that is possible as they are currently constructed. Vyselink (talk) 16:24, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm specifically referring to Chryssides and the 2021 version of A New Introduction. I haven't read through the whole book yet but I looked at the index for pages about women and family. I realize that it's not really a source of contention for the JWs because uniformity of beliefs and all that but it seemed like it was important to at least mention that that's what the belief is in the article about the JWs. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:32, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
If you still have this page on your watchlist, I just wanted to say that I haven't forgot about you. I get distracted sometimes and also there's only so much of this I can handle at once. It tends to bring out certain emotions in me but that's not really suprising. But the point is that if it's ever too much, I try to step away and take a break. No point ruining my enjoyment of life for things I simply cannot change. So I'm trying to take certain things a bit more slowly this time and also just gain some perspective I guess? I'll be around to focus more on this when I feel like I can. :) Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 06:00, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

New Page Patrol newsletter October 2022

Hello Clovermoss,

Much has happened since the last newsletter over two months ago. The open letter finished with 444 signatures. The letter was sent to several dozen people at the WMF, and we have heard that it is being discussed but there has been no official reply. A related article appears in the current issue of The Signpost. If you haven't seen it, you should, including the readers' comment section.

Awards: Barnstars were given for the past several years (thanks to MPGuy2824), and we are now all caught up. The 2021 cup went to John B123 for leading with 26,525 article reviews during 2021. To encourage moderate activity, a new "Iron" level barnstar is awarded annually for reviewing 360 articles ("one-a-day"), and 100 reviews earns the "Standard" NPP barnstar. About 90 reviewers received barnstars for each of the years 2018 to 2021 (including the new awards that were given retroactively). All awards issued for every year are listed on the Awards page. Check out the new Hall of Fame also.

Software news: Novem Linguae and MPGuy2824 have connected with WMF developers who can review and approve patches, so they have been able to fix some bugs, and make other improvements to the Page Curation software. You can see everything that has been fixed recently here. The reviewer report has also been improved.

NPP backlog May – October 15, 2022

Suggestions:

  • There is much enthusiasm over the low backlog, but remember that the "quality and depth of patrolling are more important than speed".
  • Reminder: an article should not be tagged for any kind of deletion for a minimum of 15 minutes after creation and it is often appropriate to wait an hour or more. (from the NPP tutorial)
  • Reviewers should focus their effort where it can do the most good, reviewing articles. Other clean-up tasks that don't require advanced permissions can be left to other editors that routinely improve articles in these ways (creating Talk Pages, specifying projects and ratings, adding categories, etc.) Let's rely on others when it makes the most sense. On the other hand, if you enjoy doing these tasks while reviewing and it keeps you engaged with NPP (or are guiding a newcomer), then by all means continue.
  • This user script puts a link to the feed in your top toolbar.

Backlog:

Saving the best for last: From a July low of 8,500, the backlog climbed back to 11,000 in August and then reversed in September dropping to below 6,000 and continued falling with the October backlog drive to under 1,000, a level not seen in over four years. Keep in mind that there are 2,000 new articles every week, so the number of reviews is far higher than the backlog reduction. To keep the backlog under a thousand, we have to keep reviewing at about half the recent rate!

Reminders
  • Newsletter feedback - please take this short poll about the newsletter.
  • If you're interested in instant messaging and chat rooms, please join us on the New Page Patrol Discord, where you can ask for help and live chat with other patrollers.
  • Please add the project discussion page to your watchlist.
  • If you are no longer very active on Wikipedia or you no longer wish to be a reviewer, please ask any admin to remove you from the group. If you want the tools back again, just ask at PERM.
  • To opt out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

Question from Firefoxx8 on Wikipedia:User pages (21:30, 17 October 2022)

change user name --Firefoxx8 (talk) 21:30, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Firefoxx8 The answer can easily be found using Google search or go to https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Changing_username (t · c) buidhe 22:05, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Nomination of Changer (song) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Changer (song) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Changer (song) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Mooonswimmer 14:21, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Question from Rossob7 (20:54, 20 October 2022)

Hi there. How do I submit a page to be posted on Wikipedia? --Rossob7 (talk) 20:54, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

@Rossob7 Hi and welcome to Wikipedia. See this page for instructions. Alternatively, I could give you some suggestions on really short articles you could expand related to your interests. Sometimes it's easier to expand an article that already has the basic wiki formatting than to do everything from scratch. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:10, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi MMiller (WMF), I had a question for you. So today my talk page was protected for a few hours because I had someone keep writing stuff like this [1]. Anyways, it prompted me to wonder if this would cause any errors for mentees assigned to me. I put myself as "away" for a day to prevent any issues but I was just wondering if I hadn't done that if any potential questions would've been reassigned? I'm just curious if there's actually a process for this or if it's just something that's never really crossed people's minds. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:06, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Ask your mentees to ping you at a separate page, such as the teahouse. (t · c) buidhe 17:39, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
I would but my understanding is that the newcomer homepage questions don't really work like that? I don't have an established relationship with any particular mentee, either, like traditional AAU. I'm just going to mark the "away" thing again so the interface gives questions to another random mentor just in case this situation causes problems. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 17:43, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
Hey @Clovermoss -- thanks for thinking about this and caring about the experiences of your mentees. Having a protected talk page is something we've bumped into before! @Trizek (WMF) and @Martin Urbanec (WMF) can both give you the details on what to do.
I also want to introduce you to @KStoller-WMF, who has taken over as the product manager for the Growth team this year (my role has changed to manage multiple teams). Kirsten, please meet Clovermoss, who is an enthusiastic mentor and deep thinker about the experience of newcomers. MMiller (WMF) (talk) 03:42, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
@MMiller (WMF) Congratulations on the new role. I hope you like it. Nice to meet you KStoller-WMF, I'm Clovermoss. :) Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 06:57, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
Tracked in Phabricator
Task T244258
Hello Clovermoss, nice to meet you!
This use case is documented, but we haven't prioritized it. At the moment, mantees and questions aren't reassigned unless if you mark yourself as away (or, starting this Wednesday, if an admin sets you as away).
In the future, please ping me if you need any information about mentorship or Growth, or feel free to directly post on the project talk page.
Trizek (WMF) (talk) 13:28, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
@Trizek (WMF): I'll likely post on the associated talk page if I have any issues/suggestions regarding the growth team in the future (it keeps discussions less fragmented and more visible for people who are interested in them). Thanks for the introduction and for linking the phabricator task. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 17:08, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
Thank you! It would actually help me, as this way I can see most conversations at one place. :) Trizek (WMF) (talk) 17:25, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
Hello, it's nice to meet you too @Clovermoss!
I always have a hard time deciding when to prioritize tasks like T244258 , since it seems like an edge-case that doesn't happen often. So it's very helpful to hear about a specific example of how completing this task would help. So thanks for bringing this to our attention! KStoller-WMF (talk) 21:42, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
Hi KStoller-WMF. I admit I was wondering about how you determined this to be an edge case? I wouldn't say it's a super common scenerio because talk pages are nessecary for communication but they are protected sometimes. I think that having some sort of backup measure for when that happens is a good idea because the longer someone's on the list the more likely this is to eventually happen, I'd imagine.
Something the past few months has definitely made me think about a lot is how I think greater communication between the community and the WMF is essential. I do think it's important to see your perspective to understand it and for you to see mine. Obviously you do care since you're talking to me right now :) But I'm just one person. Maybe a survey of whose on the mentor list would be useful?
I took a look at the list and what's in the logs for the talk pages of the editors who're on it. It turns out I'm not the only one. Pinging Isabelle Belato, CaptainEek, Pahunkat, TheSandDoctor, JavaHurricane, I dream of horses, Blaze Wolf, TheAafi, Firefangledfeathers, Ferien, Cullen328, Cassiopeia, Oshwah, Kpddg, Shellwood, SHB2000, and Winner 42 because we've all had our talk pages protected at some point and maybe some other people's opinions would be useful here. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:35, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
Can confirm that my talk page was semi'd due to spam for a short time. It was also considered for a time when I was targeted by a sexually harassing LTA (I declined). However, I've been editing for over a decade, and still have had my talk page only once, briefly, so perhaps it is an edge case. I dream of horses (Contribs) (Talk) 22:40, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
Hi Clovermoss. My talk page was protected a while back as it was getting a lot of vandalism, even though I wasn't editing that often at the time. One idea from me that might fix this problem: perhaps if a talk page is protected, then questions can be automatically posted on a subpage that the mentor will get notifications for. Not sure how difficult that is to achieve though. Thanks. --Ferien (talk) 22:48, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
Can confirm. My talk page has repeatedly been semi'd because it gets vandalized often and I'm also harassed. I've actually considered removing myself from the list because of this since if my talk page has to continue to get semi-protected then there's no point in me being a mentor if my mentees will never be able to talk to me. I have created a subpage before however it almost never gets used because there's no good way for me to make it known. Because I'm a vandal fighter this'll likely continue happening, however being an anti-vandal mentor can be helpful as you can help mentees figure out how to constructively fight vandalism, so it's not like we should forbid people engaged in anti-vandalism work from being mentors. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 22:59, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
I've been signed up as a mentor for eight months, sixteen users have initiated contact at my talk page, and my talk page has been protect for two hours. I'd support a fix along the lines of what Ferien suggests, but I do think the issue is best described as an edge case. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 23:06, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
  • I find the issue to be rare. I'm an admin and an Arb, and my talk page gets several hundred views a month. But in the last three years, it hasn't been protected even three days. As issues go, its quite low on the priority list imo. If there is an issue, the workaround should just be: ask your question at the TeaHouse for the time being. CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 23:36, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
I've had my talk page semi'd before on various wikis, including enwiki. The simple solution for this by linking my meta page and asking mentees to post a message there. --SHB2000 (talk) 07:02, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Same here. I do couther vandalism work and due to that my talk page got vandalized at times but my talk page only good protected once of twice. I dont see a big issues so far. Cassiopeia talk 09:31, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

@KStoller-WMF: My understanding is that the newcomer homepage doesn't work the way people here are suggesting in regards to alternatives? I understand that in the rare cases someone's talk page is protected for lengths of time people will have a seperate talk page/be communicated with other ways, but I don't think that norm would nessecarily work with how the newcomer homepage is set up. That's why I was curious about if it reassigned your questions like it does if you're marked as away, it seemed like the best solution to me with how it's already set up. Please let me know if I'm misunderstanding something. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:39, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

@Clovermoss thank you so much for gathering feedback from other mentors who have had their talk page protected! This is super helpful to better understand the underlying issue.
My understanding is that the solution you are suggesting (automatically mark a mentor as "Away" if their talk page is protected T244258) would work well and follows a similar approach to how we handle temporary blocks: T318819. Marking a Mentor as "Away" isn't very disruptive for newcomers, because they still see their usual mentor's name on their homepage, and they only see a notice if they want to ask a question:
Your primary mentor, (mentor_name1), is currently away until (date).
Another mentor, (mentor_name2), will answer your questions for the time being.
When you ask a question, it gets published publicly under your username, (mentee_username), to your mentor's talk page, which is where they can find and respond to your question.
I'll post a question on T244258 to get a better idea of the complexity of completing this task. I certainly agree that it's a problem we should address eventually, and perhaps since it's similar logic to T318819 it will be low-effort to complete. KStoller-WMF (talk) 17:20, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
That's not a bad idea, however I don't think marking the mentor as "Away" when their talk page is protected is the best choice here. With a temporary block it makes sense as the mentor shouldn't be answering questions if they got blocked. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 01:04, 30 October 2022 (UTC)
Have you been able to check out Special:MentorDashboard? Being marked as away basically just means you're not available. It's not just for when people get blocked. But if a mentee asks a question and the user talk page in question is protected I can see some bizzare technical issues occuring. Not really my forte but I trust what KStoller is saying that setting blocked talk page mentors as temporarily away is probably the best way (and quickest) technical way of dealing with the issue. If you have an ongoing relationship with a mentee, you could always just contact them on their talk page or find some way of making it work between the two of you. Unless you have some sort of other idea? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 20:03, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Women in Red November 2022

Women in Red November 2022, Vol 8, Issue 11, Nos 214, 217, 245, 246, 247


Online events:


See also:


Other ways to participate:

Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Lajmmoore (talk) 17:32, 26 October 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Question from Before dia on Internationalized domain name (20:45, 30 October 2022)

Wich is more important money or knowledge --Before dia (talk) 20:45, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi Before dia. Welcome to Wikipedia. I've left some links on your talk page about how to contribute here if you're interested. I think knowledge is more important than money, maybe you do as well? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:50, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

The Signpost: 31 October 2022

* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 03:42, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Question from Alamin Yobe (22:49, 11 November 2022)

Hello --Alamin Yobe (talk) 22:49, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

@Alamin Yobe Hello to you as well. If you have any questions about editing Wikipedia, feel free to come back here and ask! I'll leave a message on your talk page with some helpful links as well. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 11:40, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Question from Utkarsh kotarya (14:12, 12 November 2022)

i am upload some video , and photo. but this material is not upload. please help me . how can upload photo and video . thank you teacher --Utkarsh kotarya (talk) 14:12, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi Utkarsh kotarya and welcome to Wikipedia. So I think the guide you're looking for would be here. It's very important to read all of it and not just the how you upload images part. One thing that's crucial is that anything you upload cannot be a copyright violation. Another thing that's important to keep in mind is that Wikipedia is not a web hosting service and that Wikimedia Commons, our sister project, has some criteria for the files it retains. Depending on why you want to upload something, a place like YouTube may be more suitable. Uploading video is more complicated and even I haven't been able to manage that yet, but asking at their help desk may be more helpful. Is there anything else I can help you with? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 17:30, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Question from Traduced (22:42, 13 November 2022)

Clovermoss Hello, thank you for being assigned as my mentor. Are you human? --Traduced (talk) 22:42, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

@Traduced Hi, yes I'm human. Is there anything in particular you wanted to know? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:52, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Question from Adventures In Accuracy (05:44, 18 November 2022)

Hello Clovermoss,

I'm not sure if this is the appropriate forum for my question, as it is related to a draft article I've created, but I will give it a shot. A reviewer commented that my article "is just blatant advertising and will not be accepted." I sent the reviewer a message asking for a more specific explanation and how it could be improved, and the comment was updated to say that my article "is just blatant advertising, particularly the "Current Activities" section and will not be accepted." So, I am wondering how to get assistance on making my article more likely to be accepted. I have several solid references, and I believe it is quite neutral in tone, especially since I have declared a COI because I volunteer for the organization which is the topic of the article. I would still like to officially submit it for review. Since a reviewer has made a comment, does that mean no other reviewers will look at it in its draft state and make additional comments? My draft article, from what I can tell, can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Ikorta

Thank you for any help you can provide. --Adventures In Accuracy (talk) 05:44, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi Adventures In Accuracy, thanks for reaching out to me. Hopefully I can help you adequately. So first things first, you can resubmit the draft if you would like to. Sometimes another reviewer will take a look at it. A lot of reviewers tend to keep their comments relatively brief because there tends to be a backlog of thousands of drafts and a handful of reviewers. I understand that that experience may be frustrating, I'm just trying to explain the other side of it because maybe that will give you some peace of mind.
So, taking a look at the draft, I would agree that the current activities section is more promotional in nature. My suggestion would be to get rid of it completely or add a sentance or two consolidated elsewhere? Sometimes it can be difficult to write completely neutrally about subjects we care about. That's why our conflict of interest policy is so important. It looks like you already declared your COI on your userpage, thank you for following that path.
The best advice in general to writing an article can be found here. Keep in mind that Wikipedia doesn't actually allow articles on everything, we have specific considerations for organizations and companies in particular so we don't become something like yellowpages. These specific considerations can be found here.
Does that help? I can clarify further or answer any other questions you might have. I can also help you find other articles you may be interested in editing. Maybe you'd be interested in helping out at Wikipedia:WikiProject Georgia (country)? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:37, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
I'm also "pinging" Theroadislong in case they want to say anything here. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:39, 18 November 2022 (UTC)
Thank you, Clovermoss. This Information helps quite a bit. I would think that resubmitting the draft entails editing it and then publishing it again. That seems logical to me, so I will try that first and go from there. Adventures In Accuracy (talk) 10:32, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
I'm glad you found my comment useful, Adventures In Accuracy. Something I wanted to clarify is that if you're talking about the 'publish' button, that just updates your draft to include any changes you made in an edit. Think of it as a manual 'save' button. To actually resubmit the draft, you'd have to click the 'resubmit draft for review' button. I'd encourage you to keep working on the draft first before doing that, though. I know I sent you a bunch of links the last time but one of the most important ones to spend the most time reading would likely be this one. The key is finding three quality sources: ones that are reliable, independant, and talk about this organization in-depth.
If there's anything else I can help you with in the future, feel free to come back here. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:55, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
Thank you, Clovermoss. At no point have I officially submitted this article (Draft:Ikorta) for review; it was my understanding that it is a good idea to first leave it in the draft space to see if any editors comment, which did indeed happen. I've only saved my draft along the way. Regarding independent sources, I have five in the References section and four additional ones in the External Links section. Thank you for the link to the Notability information. I read that and also read many other Wikipedia help pages and resources before even writing the article. It makes sense why these things matter; I just hope that this organization will be considered notable. I'll run through the article again and see if I can make any further improvements, and then I'll submit it for review. Adventures In Accuracy (talk) 12:38, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Speedy deletion contested: Scarling. discography

Hello Clovermoss. I am just letting you know that I contested the speedy deletion of Scarling. discography, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: The band's name is sometimes stylised that way, so redirect isn't implausible. Thank you. BangJan1999 19:20, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry about that BangJan1999. It looked like a typo to me, but obviously I was wrong. I have no issues with you contesting the CSD nomination. I'd suggest adding content at Scarling discography to clarify that the band is sometimes stylized that way. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:22, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Question from Seidhr33 (15:12, 21 November 2022)

Hello! I'm new here, and I wanted to add to the christianity page concerning modern christian victim complex and current (2016-2022) christian hate. I find the general article lacking, is this acceptable? --Seidhr33 (talk) 15:12, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

@Seidhr33 My main advice would be to read this page. Articles are meant to summarize what reliable sources say about a subject. This link may also be helpful. Feel free to be bold and try to make improvements, but if your changes are reverted don't edit war. Politely discuss the changes you want to make on the revelant talk page instead. Does that help? I can clarify if nessecary. Feel free to come back here if you have any other questions. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:37, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
This was very helpful! I will of course endeavor to always make meaningful edits! Thank you so much! Seidhr33 (talk) 16:09, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

Thanks for reviewing a few of my redirects. Also, thanks for adding the rcatshell template to them, I don't know why the AFC/R script didn't add them like usual!

echidnaLives - talk - edits 11:10, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Women in Red December 2022

WiR Women who died in 2022
WiR Women who died in 2022
Women in Red December 2022, Vol 8, Issue 12, Nos 214, 217, 248, 249, 250


Online events:

See also:

Tip of the month:

  • Remember to search slight spelling variations of your subject's name,
    like Katherine/Katharine or Elizabeth/Elisabeth, especially for historical subjects.

Other ways to participate:

Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Lajmmoore (talk) 20:53, 26 November 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging

The Signpost: 28 November 2022

* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 15:40, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

ArbCom 2022 Elections voter message

Hello! Voting in the 2022 Arbitration Committee elections is now open until 23:59 (UTC) on Monday, 12 December 2022. All eligible users are allowed to vote. Users with alternate accounts may only vote once.

The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to impose binding solutions to disputes between editors, primarily for serious conduct disputes the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the authority to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail.

If you wish to participate in the 2022 election, please review the candidates and submit your choices on the voting page. If you no longer wish to receive these messages, you may add {{NoACEMM}} to your user talk page. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 01:41, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Growth team newsletter #23

Welcome to the twenty-third newsletter from the Growth team!

Highlights

Screenshot of the positive reinforcement module improvements.

Positive reinforcement: an improved impact module to test

The goal of the Growth team is to encourage newcomers to try editing for the first time, and encourage them to keep editing. We want to increase newcomers' motivation by showing them how impactful their edits are.

Newcomers have access to an impact module; you can find yours at Special:Impact. The revised impact module provides new editors with more context about their impact. It will display the number of edits, the number of thanks received, the last time they edited, the number of consecutive days they edited, and the number of views for the articles they edited.

This module will soon be available at our pilot wikis starting December 1. You can already test this new module at Beta Wikipedia. For safety reasons, do not use your regular account and password at Beta wiki. Create a new, specific account for this wiki, with a different password.

Structured tasks: improvements based on patroller feedback

After the deployment of Structured tasks, we received feedback from various communities regarding how patrollers of recent changes were feeling overwhelmed by an increase in edits to check, and how some edits were poor quality or of poor relevance.

We made several improvements based on the feedback we received. Several points of improvement have already been addressed:

  • Patroller fatigue:
    • By default, newcomers can complete up to 25 "add a link" tasks and 25 "add an image" tasks per day. If patrollers are overburdened, each community can use Special:EditGrowthConfig to lower that limit.
  • Quality of edits: what constitutes a "quality edit" is not a well defined concept. We initiated a discussion and summarized our findings. We also worked on the following improvements:
    • Add a Link
      • Underlinked articles are now prioritized, so it's less likely that newcomers are adding links to articles that are already have a lot of links.
      • The confidence score was increased, so suggestions are more likely to be accurate.
      • The default number of suggested links per article has been lowered to 3. This can be changed at Special:EditGrowthConfig. Communities can also exclude articles containing certain templates or categories from being suggested.
    • Add an Image
      • Lists will no longer receive "add an image" suggestions.
      • Disambiguation pages will no longer receive "add an image" suggestions.
      • We have many further improvements we plan to make to "add an image" in early 2023. [2]

The Positive Reinforcement project will also address some of the concerns around encouraging newcomers to progress to higher value edits. The Growth team will soon work on strategies geared at "Leveling up" newcomers so they progress from easy to more difficult tasks.

Recent changes

  • All Wikipedias now have the same onboarding experience. Previously, at a few wikis, 20% of new accounts didn't get the Growth features when they created their account. These 20% of new accounts were used as a control group, in order to know if the Growth features were changing newcomers' behavior. Experiments have shown that Growth features improve activation and retention, and as we want to provide the same onboarding experience at all Wikipedias, we have decided to remove the control groups. We will utilize control groups when testing new features, and German Wikipedia keeps a control group at their request. [3]
  • The quality score for "add a link" suggestions will change. We will suggest less links for each article, but they will be more accurate. We will first deploy it at our pilot wikis, and then to all other wikis where this feature is available. [4][5]
  • Growth's features FAQ has been updated and expanded. This page centralizes all the information about Growth features. We invite you to read it, and, if you can, to translate it.

News for mentors

  • All Wikipedias can now setup and manage a mentorship program in an easier way.
    • We changed the process to make it more reliable, easier to improve and easier to use.
    • Wikipedias where mentorship hasn't been enabled yet can turn mentorship on following a new process. When done, mentors can sign-up by visiting Special:MentorDashboard.
    • Wikipedias where the list of mentors already existed have been converted to the new system.
    • A new special page — Special:ManageMentors — now displays the list of mentors. This page can be transcluded on any other page. There are also new processes to signup as a mentor or to quit mentorship, and we improved community mentorship management.
  • The Mentor dashboard's "Your mentees" module will have a new footer, called "Recent changes by your mentees". This footer will include a link to Recent changes, where mentors can see only edits made by their own mentees. [6]

Deployments

Improving this newsletter

We plan to have a more regular newsletter, every two months. We also want to know if the current format suits you! Let us know what you like, what you like less and your suggestions of improvements: leave us a comment, in your preferred language.

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

20:57, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

meow!!!!!!!!!!

Ogusokumushi (talk) 20:19, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Question from Lazydelilah (01:01, 2 December 2022)

Hello! Thank you for being a mentor, what a lovely position!

I really only plan to edit for grammar and spelling, or to very rarely read a source to answer a tag, but I will be sure to reach out to you if I do have any questions. Thank you again! (Also, sorry that this is not a question, I am sure you are quite busy.) --Lazydelilah (talk) 01:01, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi there Lazydeliah. It's wonderful to meet you. I don't mind you reaching out, honestly it's refreshing. :) It's okay to only edit for grammar and spelling, that's actually how I started out [8]. Feel free to come here whenever you have any questions, it won't be a bother, I assure you. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 08:46, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

WikiProject Canada 10,000 Challenge sixth anniversary

The Bronze Maple Leaf Award
This maple leaf is awarded to Clovermoss for creating three Canada-related articles and improving three others during the sixth year of The 10,000 Challenge of WikiProject Canada. Congratulations, and thank you for your contributions! Reidgreg (talk) 20:31, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
Thanks Reidgreg. It's nice to have another maple leaf to add to the collection. :) I try to do what I can even if I'm not that impressive when it comes to content. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:25, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Question from Goathellste (13:14, 8 December 2022)

Hi! Someone reverted my changes despite my information being accurate. I tracked down the citation given and it's definitely not correct. What's the correct action to take here? --Goathellste (talk) 13:14, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

@Goathellste Hi and welcome to Wikipedia! I assume you're talking about your edit to Voice warning system? I'm pinging Spf121188 so they're aware and so they might be able to explain their reversion. Usually, if there's disagreements about content, people start a talk page discussion. The revelant one in this case would be Talk:Voice warning system. Alternatively, if you're certain that the ref doesn't actually verify what's in the article, you can add {{failed verification}} to the end. I'm on my phone right now and busy so I can probably give more detailed advice later if you need me to clarify anything, but I hope this helps. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:02, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of De cero (Album

A tag has been placed on De cero (Album requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section R3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a recently created redirect from an implausible typo or misnomer, or other unlikely search term.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. MB 04:48, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

MB I don't think I created this redirect? iirc, I moved the page (I'm assuming that's why I was notified) to a more sensical title and waited because I wasn't sure if the missing bracket was enough to qualify for R3. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 09:31, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
Yes, you did fix this article title with a page move. Mal-formed disambiguators are usually deleted and since one was new enough to quality for R3 I went that route instead of RFD. There were actually links to it I had to fix first. MB 15:11, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Livonia Township

I reverted your move of this. Although this name is unique, WP:USPLACE says we always include the state name. Furthermore, there are some states, including Minnesota, where townships always include the county also. I know I have seen that documented somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment. But if you go to the Livonia Township article and check the other towns in the county (all listed in the nav box), you will see they all follow this format. The cities and unincorporated communities are just "name, state" MB 05:01, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

@MB Alright, thanks for letting me know. I was under the impression that if the disambiguation wasn't nessecary (other places with the name) it should just be the township. I notice now that different countries have different naming conventions... I'll try to keep that in mind for the future and reference that page later. If you do find the other page you were looking for, could you let me know then too? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 07:36, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
I must have been thinking of the section "Minor civil divisions" a little farther down in WP:USPLACE that says there should be consistency per the standard picked for that state. Iowa is another state that includes the county. I recall once I was about to do a move just like you did, but stopped after I noticed other towns were named that way. Here is a ongoing move discussion about one in Illinois where the county was removed that offers some insight. MB 15:37, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Question from Uleih on Billy Meier (13:49, 11 December 2022)

 Courtesy link: Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard § Using the occupation parameter in an infobox to state that someone is a "cult leader" This resulted in me starting a BLPN discussion after Uleih was more specific. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:21, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Hello,

Why attack on person is allowed and slander?

Wikipedia articles should be neutral not one sided. This Wikipedia page is clearly attack on Eduard Meier!

And why reference link not up to date and behind paywall [21]. No way to confirm info. --Uleih (talk) 13:49, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi Uleih. Attacks on people are not allowed on Wikipedia and there's extra rules regarding biographies of living people because of this. However, I'm not seeing anything that would qualify as "attacking" this individual? Articles are meant to summarize what reliable sources say about a subject. In regards to neutrality, it's also important that a false balance is not created. As for paywalled references, ideally references should be freely accessible to everyone, but it is not required. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:26, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
To slander his Occupation as Cult leader clear attack on his person and made up lie! He personally have said it and FIGU has nothing to do with religion and he wants avoid people making religion out of it.
"biographies of living people" is joke! Most reference are attack on person! And are not legit. Reference [9] what is this? You clowns only make mockery of yourself!
Where is references to documentary about metal examples and sound recording analyses by scientists they are legit no link to there. How hell you can tell me this article is neutral?
Where is scientific information from Contact Notes what came true? No mention not even single article?
This show rigged and run by clowns Wikipedia is! Just like Graham Hancock article. Uleih (talk) 07:27, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
@Uleih I think you're the one whose misled about the definition of science. When all you have to say is that the people who edit here are clowns and that a reference to a book is a mockery...
The simple fact is that if this guy made some sort of breakthrough scientific discovery, there would be reliable sources that go into detail about this. Those sources do not exist and taking someone at face value about knowing some sort of secret is not how an encylopedia works. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 08:39, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
@Uleih I think I might have slightly harsh in my last response to you. While it's unrealistic to believe to expect that an encyclopedia article would promote pseudoscience, I do happen to agree with you that someone's occupation shouldn't be described as a cult leader in the infobox. I started a discussion at Talk:Billy Meier. I didn't even notice that the first time I looked at the article, I mostly just read the content throughout it. This may come as a surprise to you, but I actually have nothing to do with the existance of that particular article. I'm just someone who cares about Wikipedia and volunteers to answer questions new editors have. So I don't appreciate being called a clown and that's really not the way to act on here. We have a civilty policy and it's just not nice to actually make personal attacks. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:58, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

TheWikiWizard - December 2022

Hey, Clovermoss! Here is the December 2022 issue for the TheWikiWizard! We've been dormant for a few months!

Humor

  • How many times will you write 2022 in 2023??
  • Don't write Christmas Cards/do gift shopping in December, do it in the summer!

Wiki(p/m)edia News

Not much to report this issue, but we do have these to report!

  • Quite a few RFAs took place since the last issue of this newsletter. You can view more here!
  • The Voting for a sound logo is taking place on Wikimedia Commons, head over to that link to find out more!
  • The Arbitration Committee Elections is happening on the English Wikipedia. (The elections may have finished by the time you see this message, please check the page for the date and time of the election deadline)

Editor's Notes

  • Have a great holiday and new years! We'll see you in 2023.


Like this Issue? Got Feedback? Spot a mistake? Discuss this issue here

To change your subscription, or to subscribe click Here.

See you next time. Happy Holidays! --つがる Talk to つがる:) 🍁 02:43, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
This issue was delivered to you with MediaWiki message delivery (talk) on 02:50, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Peace Dove Christmas

Peace is a state of balance and understanding in yourself and between others, where respect is gained by the acceptance of differences, tolerance persists, conflicts are resolved through dialog, peoples rights are respected and their voices are heard, and everyone is at their highest point of serenity without social tension.

Happy Holidays. ―Buster7 ☎ 03:45, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

Question from IndyCar1020 (20:46, 14 December 2022)

Hi Clovermoss,

I see you're listed as my mentor.

I've started editing the China article, I feel like this is a sensitive area. I'm making edits in good faith, how should I conduct myself? Do I need to talk about changes in the Talk section first? It doesn't seem other users do that.

Just thought I would ask. Thank you. --IndyCar1020 (talk) 20:46, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi IndyCar1020. Welcome to Wikipedia. If you're just doing stuff like fixing typos [9] there's no need to ask on the talk page if that's okay. You're right that China is an article that might have some more controversial subject matter, so if you ever try to make bigger changes, there's something called bold, revert, discuss. This is also a process that's good to follow in general because it encourages people to work together and find a common ground. Is that useful or do you want me to be more specific with anything? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:18, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Peter Webb

Hi, thanks so much for sorting out the muddle I left behind me. I had no idea how to fix the reference section, went back to have a go and found you had been there already. Vey much appreciated. Thanks again. Cheers, many many dogs Manymanydogs (talk) 08:48, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Me again. One thing.....Peter was not an artist. He was hugely involved in creating the New Zealand art market and acceptance of contemporary art via being an art dealer, publisher and auctioneer. I realise 'gallerist and auctioneer' was a bit clumsy though. Any thoughts?
Peter Webb (art dealer and auctioneer)?
Peter Webb (art advocate and entrepreneur)?
Would both work Manymanydogs (talk) 08:58, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
Hi Manymanydogs. I've since moved it to Peter Webb (art dealer). My bad. I'm also going to ask someone whose more experienced in page moves if I had the right idea here. MB, any thoughts? If I'm messing up too often, please let me know. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 09:11, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
The move was fine. The disambiguator should be as concise as possible yet sufficient to distinguish from others. The fact that it needed to be disambiguated prompted me to check the dab page and it was missing, so I added it there. I also made a couple of unrelated edits to the article. MB 16:03, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
MB Thanks! I had a similar idea to what you ended up doing with the interview links but I was undecided on the best way to fix that. My original idea was to wait until someone reviewed the article before I added it to the DAB page because I wasn't sure if I should do so myself. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 16:54, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
I don't think there is a reason not to add to the dab before the article is reviewed. If it gets deleted, the deleting admin will remove all links to the article. It was reviewed recently anyway. Keep up the good work. MB 17:00, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for all your help it is so great to know that there are people like you behind the scenes. Manymanydogs (talk) 20:04, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

You're very welcome! Here's a tip for the future: you can click the 'reply' button instead of starting a new thread each time. Alternatively you could click "edit source" near the top and add your comment that way. If you take a look at it, you can kind of get used to wikiformatting over time. When discussions get really indented, I like to use {{od}}. If you're curious, after you've seen this, I can show you a bit in real-time what I mean. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 20:07, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
@Manymanydogs: I'm assuming you're busy but if you're ever curious about what I was talking about in my last comment, this is what that looks like [10]. Notice that the colons cause indentation for each comment and that {{od}} allows everything to start all over again. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:08, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
Hi there. I have to confess I use the visual editor so am probably a bit restricted in this area. Thought I would tackle the code next year...but having said that I'll probably chicken out! Have a good Christmas break and thanks again for your interest and ongoing help. Manymanydogs (talk) 23:14, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
@Manymanydogs: I wish the same to you! If you ever are interested in learning the intracies of the source editor, feel free to come back here and ask questions. But if Visual Editor is working for you, feel free to keep using it. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:15, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Your essay, and delays

I said I would look at it some time ago, and for some time I failed to get around to it, and I apologize for this (I have perhaps overestimated my capacity for getting around to things). But I am glad you have submitted it and Iook forward to running it! jp×g 04:40, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

That's okay JPxG, I figured you had a million things to do and just didn't get a chance. I will say that I'm excited for my first contribution to the Signpost since 2020! Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 05:06, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Oakes Park, Niagara Falls

Information icon Hello, Clovermoss. This is a bot-delivered message letting you know that Draft:Oakes Park, Niagara Falls, a page you created, has not been edited in at least 5 months. Drafts that have not been edited for six months may be deleted, so if you wish to retain the page, please edit it again or request that it be moved to your userspace.

If the page has already been deleted, you can request it be undeleted so you can continue working on it.

Thank you for your submission to Wikipedia. FireflyBot (talk) 11:03, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

I stuck a couple of extra refs in there, in case you want to pick it up. Merry Christmas! Girth Summit (blether) 11:42, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
@Girth Summit Thanks! I admit I kind of forgot about this draft's existance... time to take a look at my neglected drafts and do something about them! Merry Christmas to you as well. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:37, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
@Girth Summit: By the way, I fixed your typo [11]. It's St. Catharines (a) not St. Catherines. To be fair it is a relatively atypical spelling but you tend to feel a bit miffed about people messing up city names you care about :) I still like you, though. Thanks for adding the refs earlier. I think it's a decent stub now. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 00:47, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
Nice one - better a decent stub than a deleted draft! Sorry for the spelling mistake - my eyes missed that, I really ought to use copy/paste for that kind of thing. Girth Summit (blether) 13:08, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
@Girth Summit It's okay. I messed up a word myself and someone else fixed it later on. Several eyes are always better than one! Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 13:40, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Verifying source and bias

Hi Clovermoss. I was reviewing the article "Superheterodyne Receiver" and noticed the first cited statement that Lucien Levy is the creator of the Superheterodyne Receiver instead of Edwind Armstrong, was incorrectly described from the cited source. I went to the source and the document does not say Levy was the inventor, just that through a long drawn out legal battle, AT&T was able to run Armstrong out of money and win a patent for the Superheterodyne. This was due to AT&T trying to break into the radio industry. The patent was later reverted back to Armstrong who sold it RCA. How do we deal with statements that show a clear bias away from the cited source? This seems to go beyond "point of view" and looks to be just plain incorrect. LDtronic01 (talk) 18:33, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi LDtronic01. I would suggest starting a talk page discussion about this at Talk:Superheterodyne receiver. I will admit that there's a lot of technical terms used throughout the article and the source that I'm not really familar with so asking at the relevant talk page is more likely to get a response from someone who actually knows something about radios. It's also good practice in general because it keeps all discussions related to the article in one place.
I've taken a look at the content a few times and I wouldn't say "It was long believed to have been invented by US engineer Edwin Armstrong, but after some controversy the earliest patent for the invention is now credited to French radio engineer and radio manufacturer Lucien Lévy" is an accurate summary of the cited source. It mentions that Lévy filed the original patent and that there was a similar patent filed by Armstrong. It doesn't say anything about A&T running Armstrong out of money or because this the business was trying to break into the radio industry, like you're suggesting here. It also doesn't say that it was "long believed" to be invented by Armstrong, as the current version of the article states.
To answer a more generalized version of your question... citing a source that does not support the content someone has added would be violating a Wikipedia policy called original research. If I came across a similar situation: I would remove the content in question (saying it's not in the source), look for other sources that might verify it to replace the citation, or put {{failed verification}} at the end of the sentance. Does this help? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:00, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Yo Ho Ho

ϢereSpielChequers is wishing you Seasons Greetings! Whether you celebrate your hemisphere's Solstice or Christmas, Diwali, Hogmanay, Hanukkah, Lenaia, Festivus or even the Saturnalia, this is a special time of year for almost everyone!

Spread the holiday cheer by adding {{subst:User:WereSpielChequers/Dec22}}~~~~ to your friends' talk pages.

ϢereSpielChequers 22:05, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas, Clovermoss

Or Season's Greetings or Happy Winter Solstice!
As the year winds to a close, I would like to take a moment to
recognize your hard work and offer heartfelt gratitude for all you do for Wikipedia.
May this Holiday Season bring you and yours nothing but joy, health and prosperity.
Onel5969 TT me 20:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Hello Clovermoss: Enjoy the holiday season and winter solstice if it's occurring in your area of the world, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 22:16, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Spread the WikiLove; use {{subst:Season's Greetings}} to send this message

CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 22:16, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy Holidays

Happy Holidays
Hello, I wish you the very best during the holidays. And I hope you have a very happy 2023! Bruxton (talk) 18:40, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Women in Red January 2023

Happy New Year from Women in Red | January 2023, Volume 9, Issue 1, Nos 250, 251, 252, 253, 254


Online events:

See also:

Tip of the month:

  • De-orphan and incorporate an article into Wikipedia using the Find Link tool

Other ways to participate:

Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Lajmmoore (talk) 18:00, 27 December 2022 (UTC) via MassMessaging

The Signpost: 1 January 2023

* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 03:44, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Question from Aletheia Ascendant (04:12, 1 January 2023)

Hello and Happy New Year. I see you have been assigned as my mentor and wanted to thank you in advance for this. I have no questions yet, but I'm sure this will change. I have finally created my account as a very overdue New Year's resolution, and look forward to helping out. --Aletheia Ascendant (talk) 04:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear that this was your New Year's Resolution, Aletheia Ascendant. Feel free to come back here anytime. Happy new year to you as well. :) Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 04:18, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Welcome to the 2023 WikiCup!

Happy New Year and Happy New WikiCup! The 2023 competition has just begun and all article creators, expanders, improvers and reviewers are welcome to take part. Even if you are a novice editor you should be able to advance to at least the second round, improving your editing skills as you go. If you have already signed up, your submissions page can be found here. If you have not yet signed up, you can add your name here and the judges will set up your submissions page ready for you to take part. Any questions on the scoring, rules or anything else should be directed to one of the judges, or posted to the WikiCup talk page. Signups will close at the end of January, and the first round will end on 26 February; the 64 highest scorers at that time will move on to round 2. The judges for the WikiCup this year are: Sturmvogel 66 (talk · contribs · email) and Cwmhiraeth (talk · contribs · email). Good luck! MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 14:17, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion contested: Christy(2023 Indian film)

Hello Clovermoss. I am just letting you know that I contested the speedy deletion of Christy(2023 Indian film), a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: I don't believe this is implausible enough for R3. I'd recommend redirects for discussion instead. Thank you. BangJan1999 22:26, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

@BangJan1999: Understood. I thought it might qualify since missing brackets did at User talk:Clovermoss#Speedy deletion nomination of De cero (Album but I suppose not. Thanks for the heads up. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:32, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
@BangJan1999: The page was now deleted under G8? Honestly that makes me more confused than whether or not R3 applies. I did start an RfD. Maybe it was a misclick for G7 since the one comment was from the creator saying per nom? Callanecc, what are your thoughts? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:09, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
@Clovermoss: Personally, I think that the purpose of R3 is for redirects that are unquestionably implausible, such as redirecting Vo Vaughn to Mo Vaughn. The page in question did get moved and blanked to Ukiverse, a page I've tagged as A3, so maybe G8 applies, although I'm not an expert or an admin so take what I say with a grain of salt. BangJan1999 14:29, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Onel5969, in your opinion, how implausible must an implausible redirect that's recently created be? Is it okay for missing brackets but not spacing errors? Or is that something that's up to admin discretion for CSD'd pages? In a similar future circumstance should I just open an RfD instead? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:36, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
There's nothing wrong with speedying this, although RfD could also have been used. It's a judgement call. Some folks would find the lack of spacing plausible, while others may argue that not hitting the space bar is a common mistake. Obviously, the admin who deleted it agreed with you. This is definitely a borderline instance, and I can see both sides of the argument. But peronsonally I would have Rfd'd it. Onel5969 TT me 14:45, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Re the G8, Clovermoss was correct, it was a misclick for G7. The creator of the page blanked it so I deleted it for that reason. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 23:24, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Happy New Year

Happy New Year!
Hello Clovermoss:


Did you know ... that back in 1885, Wikipedia editors wrote Good Articles with axes, hammers and chisels?

Thank you for your contributions to this encyclopedia using 21st century technology. I hope you don't get any unnecessary blisters.

CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 20:24, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Spread the WikiLove; use {{subst:Happy New Year elves}} to send this message
CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 20:24, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

New Pages Patrol newsletter January 2023

Hello Clovermoss,

New Page Review queue December 2022
Backlog

The October drive reduced the backlog from 9,700 to an amazing 0! Congratulations to WaddlesJP13 who led with 2084 points. See this page for further details. The queue is steadily rising again and is approaching 2,000. It would be great if <2,000 were the “new normal”. Please continue to help out even if it's only for a few or even one patrol a day.

2022 Awards

Onel5969 won the 2022 cup for 28,302 article reviews last year - that's an average of nearly 80/day. There was one Gold Award (5000+ reviews), 11 Silver (2000+), 28 Iron (360+) and 39 more for the 100+ barnstar. Rosguill led again for the 4th year by clearing 49,294 redirects. For the full details see the Awards page and the Hall of Fame. Congratulations everyone!

Minimum deletion time: The previous WP:NPP guideline was to wait 15 minutes before tagging for deletion (including draftification and WP:BLAR). Due to complaints, a consensus decided to raise the time to 1 hour. To illustrate this, very new pages in the feed are now highlighted in red. (As always, this is not applicable to attack pages, copyvios, vandalism, etc.)

New draftify script: In response to feedback from AFC, the The Move to Draft script now provides a choice of set messages that also link the creator to a new, friendly explanation page. The script also warns reviewers if the creator is probably still developing the article. The former script is no longer maintained. Please edit your edit your common.js or vector.js file from User:Evad37/MoveToDraft.js to User:MPGuy2824/MoveToDraft.js

Redirects: Some of our redirect reviewers have reduced their activity and the backlog is up to 9,000+ (two months deep). If you are interested in this distinctly different task and need any help, see this guide, this checklist, and spend some time at WP:RFD.

Discussions with the WMF The PageTriage open letter signed by 444 users is bearing fruit. The Growth Team has assigned some software engineers to work on PageTriage, the software that powers the NewPagesFeed and the Page Curation toolbar. WMF has submitted dozens of patches in the last few weeks to modernize PageTriage's code, which will make it easier to write patches in the future. This work is helpful but is not very visible to the end user. For patches visible to the end user, volunteers such as Novem Linguae and MPGuy2824 have been writing patches for bug reports and feature requests. The Growth Team also had a video conference with the NPP coordinators to discuss revamping the landing pages that new users see.

Reminders
  • Newsletter feedback - please take this short poll about the newsletter.
  • There is live chat with patrollers on the New Page Patrol Discord.
  • Please add the project discussion page to your watchlist.
  • If you no longer wish to be a reviewer, please ask any admin to remove you from the group. If you want the tools back again, just ask at PERM.
  • To opt out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

Question from Jcaritas on Hamline University (21:41, 6 January 2023)

Hello! I work for Hamline University, and we've noticed some broken links to our site on various wikipedia pages (mostly in the references sections). I'd love to update them, but I'm confused by what I'm looking at when I click the edit button for the references section. It looks like a call to a template (==References==

) but how do I access the particular reference whose link I need to change? Thank you!! Jennifer Caritas --Jcaritas (talk) 21:41, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

@Jcaritas: Hi Jennifer. So if you're trying to update the link to something, when you're looking at the references part of the article, it should show numbers. If you click the upward arrow next to it, it "jumps" to where that link is in the text. If you go to the section where that link is, you can update the citation. Clicking templates at the top of the screen and then cite web gives you fields you can fill in. That will automatically add it to the references section. Something to keep in mind is that you have a conflict-of-interest as an employee of the university. I'll leave some links at your talk page that go into that a bit more. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 03:16, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

You've got mail!

Hello, Clovermoss. Please check your email; you've got mail!
Message added 01:31, 7 January 2023 (UTC). It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Vanamonde (Talk) 01:31, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: I've replied to your email. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 03:26, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Yesterday

We want to read and write stories on Wikipedia. What are we supposed to do or know before we start? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Francis Musesha (talk • contribs) 21:54, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

@Francis Musesha: I'm confused about what you mean by "yesterday" in the thread title? Perhaps you could clarify? Wikipedia is not for reading and writing stories... it's an encyclopedia. If what you're looking for is the former, there are other websites out there more suitable for that purpose. Also, please note that shared accounts are not allowed. I'm saying this since you brought up "we". Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:38, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Question from Samaneh.omranian on Wikipedia:IRC help disclaimer (21:52, 15 January 2023)

Hi. --Samaneh.omranian (talk) 21:52, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi. how can I edit my draft which is under rebiew. --Samaneh.omranian (talk) 21:53, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Hi @Samaneh.omranian:. Are you talking about Draft:Abbas Shokri? If so, just click "edit" near the top of the page. Does that help or do you need to me clarify something further? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:57, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 16 January 2023

* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 02:12, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Discord invite

Hey there. Congrats on being a very active new page patroller this month. You're doing great. If you want to hang out with other NPPs, consider joining us on the NPP Discord. Discord is text chat/chat room/instant message software that can be really fun. If not no worries. Thanks and see you around :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 18:18, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

@Novem Linguae: Thanks for letting me know, I actually had no idea that I was considered such an active reviewer. I swear that half the time I watchlist what I see for a few months to see what happens but I've keeping up with that and it's been interesting in which cases my instincts are right.
Thanks for the Discord invite, I actually am interested. I participate on the Wikimedia Community server sometimes so I'm not entirely unfamilar with how it works. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:24, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Question from DerpBae (14:05, 25 January 2023)

Hey! There is a topic that doesn't have a page yet. It's an entire hobby with a "moves" list/tutorials and different types of props. Am I able to get a page started for this? --DerpBae (talk) 14:05, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi DerpBae. Thanks for reaching out. So what matters when it comes to starting articles here is if it would meet our notability guideline. Typically this means that there are three sources that you can summarize that discuss the subject in-depth. Tutorials aren't really what you're looking for... try finding something like a book about the history of the hobby or news articles that discuss it? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 22:52, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Question from Huajie2020 (06:06, 28 January 2023)

ok thx. --Huajie2020 (talk) 06:06, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi Huajie2020. Did you have any questions about editing Wikipedia that I could help you with? Or were you looking for this page you accidently created a few months ago? If it's the latter, it was deleted because it was a page in my userspace that wasn't created by me. I don't hold any hard feelings and I think you were just trying to figure out how certain things worked. So if you do have any questions, feel free to reach out. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 14:50, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Question from Skipjack56 (02:26, 29 January 2023)

Hello there,

I'm a long time user and supporter of Wikipedia.

I know some changes were recently made to Wikipedia, which were not too confusing, but I can't find the PDF button fr downloading particular articles, like the one I was just reading and wanted to download.

Did Wikipedia have to remove the PDF option and it is no longer available, or has the that button just been moved to a new location? --Skipjack56 (talk) 02:26, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi Skipjack56, thanks for reaching out. So I did switch to the new design temporarily (it is possible to switch back to the old design if you want to) to see if I could understand your question. From what I can tell, the download as pdf option used to be on the left side of the screen. It is currently on the right under tools. Does that help? If you have any other questions or need me to clarify anything, feel free to come back here. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 08:48, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
Okay thanks for your answer.
I did take a look at TOOLS on the new screen before asking you about this, but I must have missed seeing the PDF button.
Will take another closer look. Skipjack56 (talk) 21:38, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
@Skipjack56 Were you able to find it? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 02:15, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
Sorry for the late reply.
To answer your question, yes I was able to find it as you described.
Thanks for your help! 2603:800C:707:CB73:8044:A1D4:9362:52FF (talk) 19:06, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red in February 2023

Women in Red Feb 2023, Vol 9, Iss 2, Nos 251, 252, 255, 256, 257, 259


Online events:

Tip of the month:

  • Explore Wikipedia for all variations of the woman's name (birth name,
    married name, re-married name, pen name, nickname)

Other ways to participate:

Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Lajmmoore (talk) 07:26, 30 January 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Growth team newsletter #24

Welcome to the twenty-fourth newsletter from the Growth team!

Newcomer experience projects

The Growth team partnered with other WMF teams to conduct several experiments around increasing account creation and new editor retention. Results from four of these experiments are now available:

Newcomer tasks

  • Several communities suggested improving "add a link", by suggesting underlinked articles first. We released this change to Growth pilot wikis. We will review the data and collect feedback before considering releasing it to more wikis. [12]
  • The deployment of the "add a link" to all Wikipedias is still in progress. Suggested links use a prediction model, which has to be trained. The deployments will resume after we finish training all models. [13]

Mentorship

  • When someone wants to signup as a mentor, they are now informed if they don't meet the defined criteria. [14]
  • Workshop hosts asked us to have workshop attendees assigned to them. They can soon use a custom URL parameter. This way, workshop hosts will continue mentoring the event's attendees after the workshop. It will be available in February. [15]
  • Have you considered to help new editors on your wiki, by signing up to be a Mentor?

Other news

  • In Special:SpecialPages, Growth experiments now have their own section. [16]
  • This newsletter will have a new publication period, 6 times a year: January, March, May, July, September, November.

Translations

  • Newsletter translation: We are looking for translators for this newsletter. If you are interested and have the needed English language proficiency to assist, then please add your name to this list. You will receive an invite on your talk page to translate the newsletter when it is ready.
  • Interface translation: You can also help by translating the interface, or reviewing translations to make them more inclusive. Interface translations are hosted at translatewiki.net.

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.• Help with translations

14:44, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 4 February 2023

* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:43, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Rcats, line breaks, and shells

Hey, just a nitpick. Generally they want 2 line breaks above categories. Plus I'm curious about the need for the redirect category shell template you added here. No biggie. Carry on. Cheers! {{u|WikiWikiWayne}} {Talk} 23:18, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi WikiWikiWayne. I admit I've always just added rcat shells when I've seen them missing because I thought they served some purpose because redirects typically have them but I'm not actually certain if that's the case. Onel5969, is it nessecary to do this? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:24, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
Yeah, 🍀. I can never remember the syntax for that shell when I do need to add them. I defer to Paine Ellsworth to tidy up after me. No harm, no foul. Cheers! {{u|WikiWikiWayne}} {Talk} 00:10, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
I'm not as conversant in redirects as I once was. You might want to ask Rosguill or Hey man im josh, who are the redirect kings, but my understanding of that shell (which I personally have never used) is it serves the {{WikiProject banner shell| on project pages. If that is the case, it is only needed if there are 2 or more redirect cats, e.g. from a move and an alternate spelling. But I could be wrong, as it doesn't seem to be doing any harm in this above instance. Hope this helps. Onel5969 TT me 01:49, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
Rosguill or Hey man im josh, what are your thoughts? I think I just assumed rcat shells were nessecary since they were always added to my redirects by new page patroller Utopes and I've just included them automatically since. Are edits like these nessecary in that they have a functional purpose? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:21, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
I'm going to pull a couple of quotes from Template:Redirect category shell/Comparison.
The Rcat shell template wraps rcats in a similar manner to other shell templates, such as the {{WikiProject banner shell}}. However, rather than collapsing the templates, the Rcat shell gives them a more sophisticated and professional appearance. - From the last paragraph of the lead.
There is no policy nor guideline with a goal to get editors to use the Rcat shell. So it is up to editors to decide which style is better for use: the Rcat shell wrapping the rcats or the rcats are used individually. The editors who have worked to improve the Rcat shell hope that other editors will put it to good use. - From the Editor's choice section
In addition, it automatically detects protection levels and includes that in the template. My patrols of redirects will often add the rcat shell because that's a part of what WP:Capricorn does. I'll add categories, or simply just click the patrol checkbox and then press save, it will automatically add the rcat shell, rcats I've selected, and mark the page as reviewed.
@WikiWikiWayne, do you have any references for the 2 line breaks? At Template:Redirect category shell#Mbox-based it states A blank line is usually placed between the redirect target and this template to make the "Edit" screen easier to read." In addition, the examples at Wikipedia:WikiProject Redirect/Style guide only show a single line break. Hey man im josh (talk) 13:52, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Hey, Clovermoss. It's all good. You use no extra line breaks, I use two extras. One sounds like enough. Sounds like the Rcat shell adds functionality even to single Rcats, so I'll start using the shell too. Thanks for digging in. Two extra breaks might be on the stub-template doc. Dunno. Carry on. Courtesy pings to @Hey man im josh and Onel5969: Cheers! {{u|WikiWikiWayne}} {Talk} 00:09, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

@Hey man im josh and Onel5969: WP:STUBSPACING talks about the benefit of two line breaks. I can see this helping Rcat output formatting too. Cheers! {{u|WikiWikiWayne}} {Talk} 01:42, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Question from Prakashofficail1 on User talk:Prakashofficail1 (11:03, 11 February 2023)

I have published a article of a artist that article is a true --Prakashofficail1 (talk) 11:03, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi Prakashofficail1. I'm not sure what you are trying to ask me? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:22, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Arbitration cases

Regarding this comment: as unsolicited advice, please feel free to ignore this comment. The following guidance might be more honoured in the breach than observance, but generally speaking, arbitration cases garner a lot of comments, thus arbitrators appreciate when comments are focused on specific relevant aspects. Anything that avoids adding to their reading workload is helpful. When commenting on a request, the most desirable feedback is on reasons why a case should or shouldn't be opened, and reasoning on the scope. I acknowledge that many feel free to chime in with any of their thoughts, and thus I understand if you continue to feel a desire to do so as well. (I am not immune to making side comments in other types of discussions, though I try to resist. Although I feel the comments I have made in past arbitration cases have been directly relevant, I'm pretty sure some arbitrators have disagreed, so I know there are areas subject to interpretation.) isaacl (talk) 17:22, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Unsolicited advice is still welcome. I appreciate other perspectives, so feel free to comment here anytime on what I say or do. I thought it was important to say something because sockpuppetry (with Icewhiz and in the topic area) seemed like it was relevant to the case and I figured that if my observation wasn't within the purview of the case, it could just be ignored. As for whether or not ArbCom accepts the case... ArbCom initiated the case request themselves so I figured they weren't really looking for input on that. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 17:37, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
For this specific case, though it seems the committee is likely to open a case, commenters should still discuss specifics related to the reasons why it would be best to open or not open a case, and its scope/format. The side comment aspect of your comments is that they were general in nature and not related to the topic area in question, as you stated you were unfamiliar with the dispute and didn't understand what was going on. Thus personally I think your comments were not likely to affect the committee's thoughts at this time. It's true that any irrelevant comments can be ignored, but as I said, reducing reading workload is desirable. If during the evidence or workshop phase it becomes important to consider if persons X, Y, and Z are using multiple accounts, you can present your evidence or analysis then. Thanks very much for your consideration! isaacl (talk) 17:58, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
My concern was more that one side of the topic area might be more likely to be accused of being sockpuppets, as an outsider looking in, and that can shut down certain discussions. This can influence content disputes if one side is always viewed with suscipion. A journal article claiming that Wikipedia is in the wrong here adds to that concern. I added the disclaimer about not knowing much about the topic area because it's something that's true and might impact that perspective, same with considering Levivich to be a friend. Both GizzyCatBella and Levivich are parties in the case and given the comments surrounding Jacinda01 (Icewhiz sock named as party issue as collapsed thread in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case), I thought it was relevant and not nessecarily general in nature (even if it might be on the more borderline part of that spectrum). Is this clarification helpful? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 18:08, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
I understood your point of view. I was just expressing my opinion that it would be more useful to discuss this in either the evidence or workshop stages, accompanied with evidence and analysis. Since the case hasn't started yet, personally I don't think considerations about sockpuppetry have to be discussed yet. (Without context, just saying "I don't think X, Y, and Z have multiple accounts" doesn't seem to connect to anything. If in the workshop you said "Based on diff D presented in evidence, A and B accused X and Y of sockpupptry, which shut down discussion C", the dots would be connected.) Of course, I understand if you have a different opinion; like I said, you should feel free to ignore mine. isaacl (talk) 21:31, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
I'll think about what you said. I'm not too familiar with different phases in regards to ArbCom cases or even participating in general. It's possible my concern is too tangential. We'll see as time passes, I guess. Regardless, I do appreciate you reaching out. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 23:32, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

A BIG thanks!

Thank you for the nomination for editor of the week! Grapesoda22 (talk) 03:39, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

@Grapesoda22: You're welcome. I hope you have a good week. :) Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:27, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 20 February 2023

* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:01, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Eden High School

Thank you for finding that ref. I had found a primary ref for the merger, but it didn't give the year, so I'm fine with your ref. It's not a contentious issue, we just needed to justify the change of school boards names. Meters (talk) 20:58, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

@Meters: Okay, thanks for letting me know. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 21:17, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
I really appreciate you digging that up so quickly. Meters (talk) 21:22, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
@Meters: The article has been on my watchlist for awhile so to me it's more of a neglected to-do list item, even if the clarify tag was only added recently. I appreciate you trying to keep the article more encyclopedic with the flood of recent edits. I've made a few more since yesterday – everything seem alright to you? You seem to do a lot of work in regards to secondary school articles in particular. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:13, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
No problems with your changes. Meters (talk) 21:33, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

TheWikiWizard - February 2023

Hey, Clovermoss! Here is the February 2023 issue for the TheWikiWizard!

Humor

  • Have you finished raking up those leaves from fall?
  • Are you making your list yet for next Christmas? Only 10ish more months to go! It's never too early ;-)

Wiki(P/M)edia News

  • Wikipedia (EN) has a new look! Remember, if you prefer the old look and are logged in, you can go to preferences to change back to the old vector skin!
  • WMF (Wikimedia Foundation) is going to update it's terms of use, you can find out more here
  • There is a planned test that will take place with the servers, and it may affect your ability to make changes for a period of time, more information can be found here
  • We've got some new RFA's (Requests for Adminship) on EN Wikipedia that took place since the last issue!

Editor's Notes

  • Happy 2023! This is the first issue of the year!
  • If you ever want to help out with TWW please let us know! Please note TWW issues may be delayed, but we haven't forgotten about TWW!
Like this Issue? Got Feedback? Spot a mistake? Discuss this issue here

To change your subscription, or to subscribe click Here.

See you next time. We hope you have a great 2023! --つがる Talk to つがる:) 🍁 01:10, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
This issue was delivered to you by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) at 01:17, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red March 2023

Women in Red Mar 2023, Vol 9, Iss 3, Nos 251, 252, 258, 259, 260, 261


Online events:

See also:

Tip of the month:

  • Mobile phone readers may only see the article "lead" – take some time to make it shine!
    Include something to keep people reading.

Other ways to participate:

Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Lajmmoore (talk) 12:52, 26 February 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Wikimedia Foundation project to improve PageTriage

Hi, as an active New Page Patroller, I wanted to make sure you were aware of an upcoming Wikimedia Foundation project to improve the PageTriage extension. We recently published results of user interviews, and have some findings that we would value patrollers' opinions on. If you haven't yet, please consider adding the project page to your watchlist to stay up to date with our progress! Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 13:17, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

WikiCup 2023 March newsletter

So ends the first round of the 2023 WikiCup. Everyone with a positive score moved on to Round 2, with 54 contestants qualifying. The top scorers in Round 1 were:

  • Unlimitedlead with 1205 points, a WikiCup newcomer, led the field with two featured articles on historical figures and several featured article candidate reviews.
  • New York (state) Epicgenius was in second place with 789 points; a seasoned WikiCup competitor he specialises in buildings and locations in New York.
  • Germany FrB.TG was in third place with 625 points, garnered from a featured article on a filmmaker which qualified for an impressive number of bonus points.
  • United States TheJoebro64, another WikiCup newcomer, came next with 600 points gained from two featured articles on video games.
  • Byzantine Empire Iazyges was in fifth place with 532 points, from two featured articles on classical history.

The top sixteen contestants at the end of Round 1 had all scored over 300 points; these included Berkelland LunaEatsTuna, Thebiguglyalien, Sammi Brie, New England Trainsandotherthings, England Lee Vilenski, Indonesia Juxlos, Unexpectedlydian, Washington (state) SounderBruce, Wales Kosack, BennyOnTheLoose and Chicago PCN02WPS. It was a high-scoring start to the competition.

These contestants, like all the others, now have to start again from scratch. The first round finished on February 26. Remember that any content promoted after that date but before the start of Round 2 can be claimed in Round 2. Some contestants made claims before the new submissions pages were set up, and they will need to resubmit them. Invitations for collaborative writing efforts or any other discussion of potentially interesting work is always welcome on the WikiCup talk page. Remember, if two or more WikiCup competitors have done significant work on an article, all can claim points. If you are concerned that your nomination—whether it is at good article candidates, a featured process, or anywhere else—will not receive the necessary reviews, please list it on Wikipedia:WikiCup/Reviews Needed.

If you want to help out with the WikiCup, please do your bit to keep down the review backlogs! Questions are welcome on Wikipedia talk:WikiCup, and the judges are reachable on their talk pages or by email. Good luck! If you wish to start or stop receiving this newsletter, please feel free to add or remove yourself from Wikipedia:WikiCup/Newsletter/Send. Sturmvogel 66 and Cwmhiraeth. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 19:37, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

You've got mail

Hello, Clovermoss. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.
@ARamadan-WMF: Thanks for reaching out to me about this. I've replied to your email. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:34, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
@ARamadan-WMF: You have mail again. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:34, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
I received it, thanks a lot! ARamadan-WMF (talk) 13:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 9 March 2023

* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 05:40, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Question from Wagon TV (16:21, 11 March 2023)

I want to be perfect on this --Wagon TV (talk) 16:21, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi Wagon TV. I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, could you please clarify? In the meantime, I've left some helpful links on your talk page. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 17:46, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

A kitten for you!

Great job handling the Davidcannon BLP situation!!

~ Eejit43 (talk) 00:36, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

World War II and the history of Jews in Poland: Arbitration case opened

Hello Clovermoss,

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World War II and the history of Jews in Poland. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World War II and the history of Jews in Poland/Evidence. Please add your evidence by April 04, 2023, which is when the first evidence phase closes. Submitted evidence will be summarized by Arbitrators and Clerks at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World War II and the history of Jews in Poland/Evidence/Summary. Owing to the summary style, editors are encouraged to submit evidence in small chunks sooner rather than more complete evidence later.

Details about the summary page, the two phases of evidence, a timeline and other answers to frequently asked questions can be found at the case's FAQ page.

For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration.

For the Arbitration Committee,
~ ToBeFree (talk) 00:12, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

@ToBeFree I have a question. I don't really have anything to say other than what I said at the case request, which is more of a tangential concern anyways (although my previous talk page discussion expands on the rationale a bit). Is there any point in repeating what I said elsewhere or would that be redundant? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 04:33, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
Ah, no worries then. Especially for non-parties, there is no requirement to add evidence – the bold formatting is just meant to prevent a surprise for those who do want to add evidence. 🙂
Your statement has been copied/archived to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World_War_II_and_the_history_of_Jews_in_Poland/Preliminary_statements#Statement_by_Clovermoss, and it contains a link to Special:Diff/1098286261. That's a message from one case party (GizzyCatBella) to another party's (Levivich's) talk page, but looking at the deleted revision the block was about ([17]), this seems to have been unrelated to "the topic areas of World War II history of Poland and the history of the Jews in Poland".
So I personally don't think there would be a point in converting this to an evidence statement. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 20:16, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
Hi Clovermoss. I was going to post on the /Evidence talk page, but since you had not posted there I thought this would be more direct (and ensure you saw it). First, thank you for your evidence; ArbCom cases are most definitely not the most obvious or straightforward, and I commend your efforts. On that note, though, I do have a request (from the drafters) - could you please (in your evidence section) provide some more context behind the diffs you have presented? We have looked at them but are honestly not quite sure what they are or why they should be considered evidence for this case. Thank you, and if you have any further questions please feel free to either ping me or post on the Evidence talk page. Primefac (talk) 19:18, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
Hi Primefac. I hope my recent edits clarify my thought process a bit more. If it's not relevant, feel free to discard it. If you need me to clarify anything further, feel free to ask. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:35, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
It is still a bit... disjointed? I've moved it to the talk page for the moment as it is not currently what the drafters feel is usable evidence (yet). Primefac (talk) 21:43, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
@Primefac: Is it the diffs? I could provide more for more of a pattern if that helps. The ultimate argument I was going for is that having interactions with other people like that doesn't just stay confined to a topic area (if someone implies you're a sock somewhere, having an argument with them in a CT won't suddenly change that). This is what I was thinking in regards to the GizzyCatBella diffs. iirc, they've implied it at other times as well. In regards to VolunteerMarek, my interpretation of seeing him and Levivich interact is the implication being that he is somehow associated with or proxying for Icewhiz. Again, I can provide more diffs if this is useful. Both of these interactions have the underlying implication that Levivich is somehow inherently untrustworthy (and trying to manipulate discussions). I don't think that's fair. I was using diffs related to Levivich because that's who I've seen be the target of that, but therotically other people could have their opinions discounted in the same way (through the Association fallacy). It's complicated because my understanding is that the area actually does have an extenstive history of sockpuppetry. But not everyone who does x or y is doing it because of Icewhiz. So I'm essentially just restating what I already said. You're the ones who determine what is and isn't evidence. Is the "yet" a polite way of declining or is it realistic that this could eventually be reconverted? Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:30, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
@Primefac: Regardless, I wish you the best of luck figuring out everything. I can imagine that ArbCom cases aren't easy to deal with. Maybe I'll figure out the intricacies of ArbCom sometime in the future. I will admit that I was hoping that my observations would be useful but if they're not then it's not like I can change that. I'd rather you have more information than nessecary in contrast to not enough. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 15:08, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
My suggestion is to treat it like an essay: figure out what your thesis statement is, and then what evidence or analysis needs to be provided to support your thesis statement. For example, if your thesis is "Editor A implies Editors X and Y are collaborating", then you need to show diffs of this happening. If this first thesis is introduced into evidence, either by you or someone else, and you have a subsequent thesis that "Editor A implies Editors X and Y are collaborating in order to avoid responding to arguments made by Editor X", then you need to show evidence of that, and it might be better placed on the Analysis page, since you're drawing a conclusion. If someone introduces a thesis that "Editors X and Y were collaborating, based on the following evidence", and you want to rebut that thesis, then you can post your analysis of their arguments on the Analysis page. isaacl (talk) 17:05, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
I appreciate your advice. I think the best path for me moving forward right now is to focus on other things (especially real life). If I do try to take another go at this later, I'll take this into consideration. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 12:40, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 20 March 2023

* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 11:15, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

"Ketchup potato chip" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Ketchup potato chip has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 March 17 § Ketchup potato chip until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 17:12, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Question from Apaara (17:20, 21 March 2023)

I have a script about a renowned clergy REVEREND OLUBUNMI ADELEYE THOMAS JP. How do I feature his story from birth to date as most of his faithfuls and followers would love to read about him on Wikipedia. Please put me through on how to feature his article and or do I share the script here for you to publish? Thanks YEMI OGUNLARI From Nigeria --Apaara (talk) 17:20, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

@Apaara Hi, it sounds like you have a conflict of interest here? I'll leave a message at your talk page explaining what you should do if that's the case. Any article is required to meet our notability guidelines. Do you have three reliable and independent sources that go into detail about him? If you don't, I'd strongly suggest you focus on other things. I could introduce you to other content we have about Nigeria that needs to be improved if you're interested. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 18:55, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
Ok, please introduce me to other contents.
Thanks Apaara (talk) 19:22, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Question from Apaara (19:35, 21 March 2023)

I will be grateful to be introduced to other important contents as I wait for your reply. --Apaara (talk) 19:35, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

@Appara: You read what I sent, correct? Could you please just confirm or deny if you have a conflict-of-interest or are being paid for your edits? It's very important. I can provide more detailed advice later, but please answer this first. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 03:36, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Women in Red April 2023

Women in Red Apr 2023, Vol 9, Iss 4, Nos 251, 252, 262, 263, 264, 265, 266


Online events:

See also:

Tip of the month:

Other ways to participate:

Facebook | Instagram | Pinterest | Twitter

--Lajmmoore (talk) 07:51, 27 March 2023 (UTC) via MassMessaging

A barnstar for you!

The Teamwork Barnstar
Thank you for attending the app's first office hours in March 2023. Your willingness to give your time and service is greatly appreciated. ARamadan-WMF (talk) 09:38, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
@ARamadan-WMF: Thanks! It was nice meeting all of you. Maybe more community members will show up in the future? I appreciate everybody's willingness to listen to feedback. As I said, if it went into a void it wouldn't have been worth doing. So thank you for actually listening to me. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:23, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Question from DenisGaspar (11:44, 30 March 2023)

Hi. How long does it actually take Wikipedia to verify an article? --DenisGaspar (talk) 11:44, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi DenisGaspar. Wikipedia in itself doesn't verify anything, we're a website that functions because we have a community of people that mostly just edit whatever they're interested in. For some people that's their local area, others fixate on typos and copyediting, participate in discussions, etc. The great thing about contributing here is that you can decide what you want to do. Verifiability is the name of the Wikipedia policy that might give you more detail in regards to what you're looking for. Sometimes articles don't meet standards you might expect them too. If this is the case, you might see {{failed verification}} at the end of a statement or tags at the start of an article (they look like boxes that say stuff like this article needs more references). If my answer isn't specific enough or you were trying to ask something else, feel free to come back. I'll leave some links on your talk page that you might find helpful as well. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 11:55, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
@DenisGaspar, are you talking about the draft on your userpage? It's unlikely to be reviewed because it is not submitted for review. Userpages are usually left alone unless they are so bad that they need to be immediately deleted. If you want to convert your draft into a proper Wikipedia article, I suggest submitting it to WP:AFC. Best, Usedtobecool ☎️ 01:54, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Growth team newsletter #25

Welcome to the twenty-fifth newsletter from the Growth team! Help with translations

Celebrations

Leveling up release

5,000+ images added via the newcomer task in February

  • In February 2023, 5,035 images were added via the newcomer “add an image” feature (on all wikis where available); 155 were reverted.
  • Since the feature “add an image” was launched: 36,803 images have been added; 2,957 images were reverted.

Recent changes

  • Add a link
    • Community Ambassadors completed an initial evaluation that confirmed that prioritizing underlinked articles resulted in better article suggestions. We then evaluated the change on Growth pilot wikis, and results suggest that more newcomers are successfully completing the task and experiencing fewer reverts. We have now deployed the new prioritization model to all wikis with "add a link" enabled. [18][19]
    • We continue the deployment of "add a link" to more wikis. These changes are regularly announced in Tech News. To know if newcomers at your wiki have access to this feature, please visit your Homepage.
  • The Impact module was deployed on our pilot wikis, where we conducted an A/B test. We published initial findings, and a data scientist is now completing experiment analysis. [20]
  • Donor Thank you page experiment – Donors land on a “thank you” page after donation, and that landing page now includes a call to action to try editing: Example Thank you page in French. This promising feature is tested at several Wikipedias (French Wikipedia, Italian Wikipedia, Japanese Wikipedia, Dutch Wikipedia, Swedish Wikipedia).
  • Growth features are now the default experience on both test.wikipedia.org and test2.wikipedia.org. You can test our features there.

Upcoming work

Growth team's newsletter prepared by the Growth team and posted by bot • Give feedback • Subscribe or unsubscribe.

13:10, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

The Signpost: 03 April 2023

* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:45, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Clovermoss/Archive_8&oldid=1188962680"