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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

1993 constitutional crisis in see also

I can't edit, can someone add it? Egezort (talk) 01:46, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done CJ-Moki (talk) 01:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Small edit suggestion

I think that "and claimed that Shoigu had allegedly" is a little redundant and could be shortened to "and alleged that Shoigu had". Largely Legible Layman (talk) 02:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done CJ-Moki (talk) 02:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Someone should add a wikibox

This is a staple of all conflict Wikipedia pages, but this certain page doesnt have one. Russian Wikipedia has already done it... why cant we? Brojiden69 (talk) 02:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Facts dude truthfully Bigbreh (talk) 02:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I tried adding one earlier, but ElijahPepe removed it. I agree that the article should have an infobox. CJ-Moki (talk) 02:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I would say add the infobox, but don't include the combatant or commander parameters. So something like this:
Wagner Group rebellion/Archive 1
Part of Russian invasion of Ukraine
Date23 June 2023 – present
Location
Ukraine, Russia
Status Ongoing
Gust Justice (talk) 02:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Lead section paragraph

The lead section is only one paragraph and for some viewers its to much to read. Please spit some of the line to make it two paragraph and not just one singular paragraph. SteamManx (talk) 09:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Done! Chaotic Enby (talk) 09:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (2)

In "International reactions", add the following:

References

  1. ^ Tobias, Billström. "Tobias Billström on Twitter: "Regeringen följer utvecklingen i Ryssland noga, allvarligt läge"". Retrieved 24 June 2023.
Thank you. Added. Liam2520 (talk) 11:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

"Alleged" mutiny?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Look at the timestamps. This section that was started when the first news broke is obviously not connected to the current state of coverage, and probably shouldn't attract any subsequent comments, because it only serves to confuse editors.—Alalch E. 15:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

As far as I've seen, Prigozhin has already said that he is going against the Russian government now, and the Russian government has been issuing statements calling for Prigozhin to be prosecuted for armed rebellion and whatnot. I've seen no reliable sources describe the mutiny as "alleged", it seems that the Russian govt, Wagner group, and most RS' are in agreement that there is a real mutiny here Presidentofyes12 (talk) 23:21, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Despite Prigojin claims that he has "25k troops going for russian MOD in Rostov" - nobody saw them. There is no any evidence of it in 6 hours, while Rostov area is pretty densely populated. So this mutiny is now happening only in media. Lola Rennt (talk) 00:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose Right now there is only a social media bubble following this and no confirmed Wagner attacks on russia, especially Rostov-on-Don have happened, all we have right now is blather from Prigozhin. This is alleged. Bigfatman8766 (talk • contribs) 00:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
    Both the Russian government and Wagner are confirming that it's happening. Most media are reporting on it (sources can easily be found in the discussion right below this one). I don't know what higher standard you need, but that's already far more than a "social media bubble". Chaotic Enby (talk) 00:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
    >>Most media are reporting on it
    reporting on what? There is no any meaningfull report of Wagner and MOD encounters. There are only claims that there is a mutiny. But no any actual events of Wagner mutiny were reported. Lola Rennt (talk) 01:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
    Wagner's boss has publicly stated that he is going against the government in Moscow, Moscow has called this a mutiny, and reliable sources are reporting on this. We don't need fire exchanges between the two to call this a mutiny (term used by the Russian government) or rebellion (term used as the article title at the moment). Cortador (talk) 15:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Precedent

I think it would be useful to mention that one time in which Wagner captured a Russian colonel who was publicly humiliated into admitting he had ordered to shoot at Wagner forces because he was drunk or something. I think it was the only real conflict or clash between Wagner and Russian professionals prior to this. This is what I am talking about: [1] [2]. Super Ψ Dro 00:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I just added this, but it could need rephrasing or to be moved to a different place. Idk Presidentofyes12 (talk) 00:16, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
That might as well be what Prigozhin meant as "Our men have been bombed by the Russian forces!" I think that what I am talking about is said in the article Deus vult fratres! (talk) 11:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (7)

In 'see also', add a link to the page of Valery Sablin, who attempted a similar mutiny. Spider Gwen from Spider Gwen (talk) 16:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 16:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (2)

Add the German response under International Reactions:

From the Official Twitter of the German Foreign Minister:

"We are continuously monitoring the current developments in Russia and are in close contact with our international Partners. German Citizens in Russia are urged to observe our adapted travel and safety instructions."

Source: https://twitter.com/ABaerbock/status/1672562208973156355 2A01:C23:B97D:E400:7D94:A381:3CC4:22F1 (talk) 14:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done 🌶️Jalapeño🌶️ Don't click this link! 14:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (5)

In the map description, can you specify the colors and who controls what? E.G. Black = Controled by Wagner Group and Red = Controled by Russian Goverment? TheCorvetteZR1(The Garage) 14:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done Iseult Δx parlez moi 14:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 24 June 2023

(non-admin closure) Closing early as the IP who started this discussion is a sock who is spamming move requests at multiple talk pages. Nythar (💬-🍀) 17:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wagner Group rebellion → 2023 Russian conflict – makes more sense 82.79.211.8 (talk) 17:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Strong Oppose; extremely vague and ambiguous. OfTheUsername (talk) 17:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Strongly oppose - Very vague, could mean anything from the War in Ukraine in 2023 to an international diplomatic conflict. No point.
Sincerely, Key of G Minor. Tools: (talk, contribs) 17:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (8)

In international reaction, under the Sweden bullet point, please amend with the following:

Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson tweeted "We closely follow the information on domestic political developments in Russia. Ministry for Foreign Affairs is in close contact with the embassy in Moscow, consulate general in Saint Petersburg and our international partners. I will discuss the issue with my Nordic Prime Minister colleagues when we meet tomorrow."[1] 185.83.93.99 (talk) 17:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done --IanDBeacon (talk) 18:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Ulf Kristersson [@SwedishPM] (June 24, 2023). "Vi följer noggrant uppgifterna om den inrikespolitiska utvecklingen i Ryssland. UD har nära kontakt med ambassaden i Moskva, generalkonsulat i Sankt Petersburg och våra internationella partners. Jag ska diskutera frågan med mina nordiska statsministerkollegor när vi möts imorgon" (Tweet) (in Swedish) – via Twitter.

We need a better name god damn it

like Prigozhin's revolt or something??? 75.25.129.9 (talk) 18:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

WP:NOTAFORUM. Also please watch your language. IanDBeacon (talk) 18:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (9)

Status : Wagner troops retreat from controlled territories Tutarvafis (talk) 18:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

We need a source for that please. IanDBeacon (talk) 18:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 Partly done: or mostly done, following news reports. Nythar (💬-🍀) 20:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (7)

[note 2] says "theree" instead of "there".

So it should be:

"There were Mi-8MTPR-1 electronic warfare helicopters, one Mi-35 Hind, one Ka-52 Alligator, one Mi-8 Transport,[10][11] and one An-26 transport plane.[12]"

instead of:

"Theree were Mi-8MTPR-1 electronic warfare helicopters, one Mi-35 Hind, one Ka-52 Alligator, one Mi-8 Transport,[10][11] and one An-26 transport plane.[12]"

(bolded to show difference) 115.188.159.190 (talk) 20:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done Nythar (💬-🍀) 20:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Mutiny or Rebellion?

This was an informal discussion. Users should now vote on the requested move at #Requested move 24 June 2023 if they want their !votes to be taken into consideration. Super Ψ Dro 10:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I don't know the exact term to be used, But I would say rebellion makes more sense, Wagner PMC is a paramilitary group, and they are not apart of the russian army, A "mutiny" of this size seems more like a rebellion or heck even a civil war. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 23:45, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

  • Well, as of now both seem to be used in sources, although mutiny is used a bit more. We could wait to see what term sets into common usage. I, however, am concerned about whether it should be seen as "alleged" or not, because most sources are now saying that it is, indeed, happening. Presidentofyes12 (talk) 23:49, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
This is an odd case. Both the Wagner Group and the Russian MoD are well-known spreaders of misinformation, so we probably shouldn't take anything they say as true, perhaps only as "claimed". Nythar (💬-🍀) 23:52, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support Rebellion. As a PMC, they're not part of Russia's chain of command so there is nobody for them to mutiny against; Wagner's highest commanding officer is Prigozhin himself.
675930s (talk) 10:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support rebellion. I've looked into the definitions of mutiny and rebellion more and rebellion would make more sense in this context because Wagner is a private military company, so I would assume that they don't have a legal connection to the russian military, mutiny is used for rebelling against superiors (military officers) however this seems like a direct rebellion against the kremlin and ministry of defense. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 23:56, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
Just quickly looking at some of the sources here - rebellion may make sense, but I'd say better titles would be 'Wagner-Russia Skirmishes', 'Wagner-Russo Conflict' for the time being - till we get a more clear image on exactly what is going on. It appears to be way too large for the word 'mutiny' (and also this title wouldn't be easily discoverable). Foxterria (talk) 00:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
They're all Russians. Prigozhin claims to still obey Putin. It makes no sense to say Wagner is fighting Russia and that both are separate entities. This is a conflict between Wagner and the Ministry of Offense of the Russian Federation or, more broadly, the Russian professional army. Super Ψ Dro 00:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I concur. Wagner is its own paramilitary force, not part of the Russian Military. The term "Mutiny" is completely incorrect to use here. Nohjmich17 (talk) 05:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support rebellion. To me it appears to be a more appropriate option and while reading news, many from Russian sources, I haven't seen "mutiny" being used a single time, at least in the translation of Russian-language sources. I am not aware of how are originally English-language sources reporting on this. Super Ψ Dro 00:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support mutiny for now- I thought I'd give a proper opinion on this- most sources, as far as I've seen, seem to be citing Russian govt. allegations of "mutiny":
Russia-Ukraine war live: Russia investigates ‘mutiny’ as Wagner chief says ‘evil’ military leaders must be stopped
Mercenary chief vows retaliation after he says Russia killed 2,000 fighters, Kremlin alleges ‘armed mutiny’
Moscow accuses Wagner head of mutiny as Ukraine prepares main thrust in counteroffensive
The list goes on. So I guess it'd make sense to keep it as mutiny for now, although the fact that they seem to be saying that Moscow is accusing Wagner of mutiny could complicate things. Idk Presidentofyes12 (talk) 00:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Some sources say the Russian government is accusing Prigozhin of "mutiny" while others of "rebellion" (e.g. [3] [4]). Some sources, when showing Prigozhin's rejection of these accusations, say he denies that he is doing an "armed rebellion" (instead of mutiny) [5]. To me it appears it is a matter of translation. So maybe the issue would then fall on what word is the most appropriate. The meaning of "mutiny" does not look so to me because as some have explained above, Wagner was never subordinated to the Russian government or to whoever they're rebelling against. Super Ψ Dro 00:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Per its own article Wagner has always been a de facto arm of the Russian government and military, with Prigozhin being a close confidant of Putin and the other top commanders also being ranked Russian officers. Support "mutiny". Lightspecs (talk) 01:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Okay, de facto is understandable. But the fact of the matter remains that Wagner isn't legally, officially, etc., part of the Russian Military. Their chain of command extends to their own leadership, not Russian Military Leadership. Nohjmich17 (talk) 05:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support "rebellion" in the title as Wagner is a private group formerly loyal to Moscow, instead of a part of the Russian Armed Forces themselves. Although I still believe it's best to wait until we have a clearer picture of the situation. Chaotic Enby (talk) 00:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Neither. It seems to me that currently we have no evidence from WP:RS that there is an actual military rebellion by Wagner forces. All we have is lots of blabla from Prigozhin, criminal charges against him, and panic from official Russian forces with military vehicles driving around and checkpoints. A social media bubble is not an armed rebellion. Boud (talk) 00:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
That is not a valid stance. Whether this thing is real or not it is receiving huge media coverage so the article will stay at least for a while. Maybe you'd rather add "alleged" next to either "mutiny" or "rebellion" but it is clear we need to chose between one of the two. Super Ψ Dro 00:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Alleged? Yes. An actual rebellion or mutiny ongoing? Not for now at least. We cannot make such claims based on unreliable sources, meaning this page shouldn't have been moved to its current title. Nythar (💬-🍀) 00:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The BBC, Reuters and The Guardian are among the outlets that are reporting on this. I do not think they're considered unreliable.
And the current is the first title this article had. It shouldn't be moved without discussion into "alleged". I believe there is a need for a discussion on this talk page for whether we should refer to this as an alleged thing or not just like we're having one for whether we should call this thing a mutiny or a rebellion. Such a discussion has not happened yet. Super Ψ Dro 00:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The question is whether reliable sources have independently verified that the events taking place in Russia are a mutiny or rebellion. This has not yet happened, so the status of this event is currently unverified. The title is based on unreliable sources. I agree that we need a formal move request. Nythar (💬-🍀) 00:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Yeah I opened one but there has only been one reply there as of now. Presidentofyes12 (talk) 00:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The mainstream Western media is reporting on claims of mutiny and using scare quotes to clarify that there's not yet any real evidence of a mutiny. The adjective "alleged" wouldn't make sense, because Prigozhin is claiming that Wagner is rebelling, it's not just the Russian authorities alleging the supposed mutiny. I'm not sure what title to propose, though. Boud (talk) 00:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support Rebellion. Wagner group runs separately from the Russian military as a private military company. Hence, it would be considered a rebellion since it's an independent force opposing the authority of the Russian government. GodzillamanRor (talk) 01:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Wait mutiny is a fine term for the next 12 hours, and presumably the facts will be clearer by then so people can make a sensible assessment. 217.180.228.188 (talk) 01:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support rebellion It's the term that makes the most sense considering both what Wagner's connection is to Russia, the fact that the term is being used in RS alongside mutiny, and just accuracy of terminology. Even if Wagner is destroyed during the course of this, rebellion seems like the best word to use. SilverserenC 01:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support rebellion, Wagner is not a component of the Russian Ground Forces but a separate organization. CJ-Moki (talk) 01:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Comment I question the categories used for this article and whether this can actually be considered a "coup". Since it is not a takeover by the official military forces but action by a private security company, and they haven't actually "taken over" anything yet, this term doesn't seem appropriate. Liz Read! Talk! 01:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
    I mean, they just took over Rostov-On-Don about 10 minutes ago. SilverserenC 02:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
    I wouldn't consider it as a coup in my opinion. Prigozhin hasn't made any mentions of removing Putin in his rebellion/mutiny, but he did want to remove Shoigu from Minister of Defence. GodzillamanRor (talk) 03:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support Rebellion. Mutiny is a loaded term used by Russian media to describt this. It also implies troops munitying against their commanders, which is definitely not whats happenning here,. AS has been noted, Wagner troops are not part of the Russian army, therefor are not munintying against their commanders. Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • The overwhelming consensus here seems to support a name change to Rebellion, and that seems to be the term used in the media - I'll leave it a while, And then make the change. Deathlibrarian (talk) 03:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Do not make any changes, please, Deathlibrarian,before the situation clarifies and the sources out there gravitate towards a rather uniform appellation. This is not just too early to be making such unilateral decisions but we're talking about a sistuatoon that literally is developing and changing as we speak here. -The Gnome (talk) 09:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Comment: I wouldn't call it a "coup", but at least one Russian general has: "Lt. Gen. Vladimir Alekseev, a Russian intelligence official, also posted a video criticizing Wagner's actions on Friday, saying "This is a coup d'etat." Carlstak (talk) 03:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support rebellion or revolt - mutiny is a little lackluster for reasons explained above. Also, oppose coup unless the Wagner Group actually succeeds. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk · Contribs) 04:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Wait & Support Rebellion, since so much of the information is unconfirmed Telegram stories, it seems that waiting and deciding tomorrow is the best choice. Nevertheless, Rebellion would be more fitting based on current information and the most likely information that will be cleared up in the coming days. LocalStinko (talk) 05:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Civil War is way, way, way, to early to use here. This conflict is not even remotely on that scale. Lets wait a lot longer. The Russian government right now is unified against Wagner, and reports of Russian soldiers siding with Wagner are few in number and don't really qualify as civil division. Nohjmich17 (talk) 05:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Hows about "uprising" instead of either term? Although truth be told that doesn't quite ring the right bell either.
Whatever the case, faeces about to get extant yo. The next few days are going to be interesting. AbominableIntelligence (talk) 05:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Hopefully this resolves itself fast. Professor Penguino (talk) 05:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Rename it to Prigozhins Rebellion. sounds tougher.
  • Support rebellion, but do not name it to Wagner Rebellion - rename it to Wagner Group Rebellion. I think the term Wagner Rebellion implies that it's a popular or common name for the current military operation, whereas calling it 'Wagner Group Rebellion' would make it so that Wikipedia is not asserting a potentially sensational name for this, and simply stating that it is a rebellion done by the group. This username should not be capitalized (talk) 08:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support status quo i.e. "mutiny" for the time being. The situation will soon be clarified. It's a volatile situatoon that changes are as we speak.
A note on the nomenclature. It's not a coup nor an insurrection, not according to the accepted meaning of these terms. It may be classed as a rebellion or as a mutiny. The grounds for the latter as far from non-existent, and have little to do with thr official Russian term for the group's actions. We have mutinies by mercenary groups historically in the Roman Empire, in Byzantium, etc. But let's wait a bit and see. Nothing seriously wrong with the current title that needs urgent intervention. -The Gnome (talk) 09:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Strong support rebellion Mutiny is not the correct word here. Rebellion is more correct and appropriate to use, because a mutiny, in the more narrow sense, commonly refers to when soldiers in the lower ranks rebel against their own officers and leaders. The title could be very misleading here, and imply that some of Prigozhin's soldiers rebelled against Prigozhin himself. "2023 Wagner Group rebellion" or something similar would be more appropriate to use.TwistedAxe [contact] 09:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support rebellion This is not a simple mutiny, as the Wagner forces have captured parts in Western Russia.
TheTechnologyGuy23 (talk) 09:52, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support rebellion The situation is increasingly worsening at the moment. Wagner Group is now openly talking about a "civil war" (see here). A part from propaganda, it seems quite clear to me this isn't a mutiny anymore. -- Nick.mon (talk) 10:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support Mutiny Same thing as rebellion, stop wasting time and report the story. -- Mahie rahman (talk · contribs) 20:10, 24 June 2023 (AEST)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 24 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved; strong support for moving to Wagner Group rebellion. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 13:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Wagner Group mutiny → Wagner Rebellion Wagner Group rebellion – The renaming of this article from Mutiny to Rebellion has been discussed, with the overwhelming consensus being the the term "mutiny" is incorrect (for a number of reasons), and that the article should be renamed "Wagner Rebellion" Thanks! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wagner_Group_mutiny#Mutiny_or_Rebellion? Deathlibrarian (talk) 04:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I think it should be Wagner Group Rebellion, to keep the full name in. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 04:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
It is no longer a mutiny, as large swathes of land are being captured. "3 Day Special Millitary Operation" of Moscow is now ongoing. Ridkent (talk) 12:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Agree This is no longer a simply mutiny, it’s an armed rebellion, which means the entire crisis in Russia and Ukraine has 3 sides now: Ukraine and Russian Opposition, Russian Gov. and Wagner Group. Who knows, it might escalate into a civil war!
TheTechnologyGuy23 (talk) 04:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
It already is civil war. It went from war to civil war the moment Wagner took Rostov-on-Don. Redacted II (talk) 11:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
But yeah, 2023 Wagner Group Rebellion is a better title. TheTechnologyGuy23 (talk) 04:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
If Wagner comes to Moscow and takes power, then the article should be named the 2023 Russian coup d’etat. TheTechnologyGuy23 (talk) 04:52, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I agree with this, but only if it comes to this scenario. Although it seems unlikely as Moscow authorities are on high alert and Prigozhin has no intent of ousting Putin. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
In the past, there was only one coup in Russia, which was in the Soviet Union, and no one calls it the 1991 Russian coup d'état attempt (the 1993 Russian constitutional crisis is not a coup). If there is a coup, 2023 should not be in the title. Parham wiki (talk) 09:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Did they riot in the past years? Parham wiki (talk) 09:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I agree, but shouldn't it be changed to something along the lines of 2023 Russian Civil War? Given that now Russian forces are rebelling alongside Wagner forces against Putin and skirmishes, shelling, and battles have begun in full force, that means it is a Civil war, not just a coup d'etat - I think it should be stated as it is as bluntly as possible. Spitfire3k (talk) 04:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
There should be mention of a civil war as a hypothetical possibility, however this appears to be a contained rebellion at the moment. Fighting has mostly been containted to Rostov-on-Don, although there are reports of it moving up the M4 highway towards Moscow. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I don't think proper to consider it a civil war since it hasnt been confirmed that there are full on battles and skirmishes in order for it to be considered a civil war between Wagner PMC and the russian state. A rebellion is a more proper description of the situation. DNMWN (talk) 05:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The definition of a civil war is "a war between citizens of the same country." This has surpassed a coup, because it isn't a faction of Wagner fighters from Chechnya fighting the Russian government to install a different leader or party. Russian military personnel are picking sides, with tens of thousands of soldiers being moved around Russia and Ukraine as we speak. This is a civil war, we have a video of fighting as intense as in Ukraine taking place in Russian territory. Even if this conflict doesn't last, and believe me I think it will, this is by all means civil, and it is impossible to deny at this point it is not a war. This must be recorded not as a revolt, a mutiny, or a rebellion, but as it really is - a 2023 Russian Civil War / The Second Russian Civil War. Spitfire3k (talk) 05:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Agree - The article should be renamed 2023 Wagner Group rebellion, which is also the red-link article for the stiuation on Simple English Wikipedia. AmericanBaath (talk) 04:58, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Agree, with caveats: No casualties yet to determine a civil war (also, may need to have civil parties to a conflict to be a civil war). But, also, revolt might be better for now. Support, but give it a day (really, a few hours) to see what else transpires. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 04:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Comment - at this stage, it is a rebellion. It could become a civil war, if more forces side with Wagner, but at the current stage, you couldn't describe it as that. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I’m willing to bet that the communists and other political movements based around revolution will revolt soon if Wagner destabilises the government enough 47.40.177.156 (talk) 05:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Agree - Being renamed as rebellion would be the proper description as they are not officially related to the russian state, so it is not mutiny.
DNMWN (talk) 05:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Agreed, should not be labelled civil war, way too premature for that, but it has definitely gone beyond a mutiny. Mutinies are usually contained to where they start, whereas this has moved on to marching into and controlling areas beyond its origin and has an ultimate goal of occupation with the possibility of structural changes in authority at the top of the Russian government. Definitely more in line with rebellion. Pmgrunert (talk) 05:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Comment - Hypothetically, if other groups joined this rebellion, what would be the name? Second Russian Civil War? Bigfatman8766 (talk) 05:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
    Possibly, it depends how the events unfold. "2023 Russian insurgency" could also be a viable title. I feel like going as far as to call it a "Second Russian Civil War" would require a lot more than just the expansion of the rebellion, but the total collapse of the Russian Federation into warring factions. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Agree - If Russia wins, it should be called "2023 Russian insurgency". If Russia loses it should be called "Second Russian Civil War" or "Russian Civil War (2023)". Bigfatman8766 (talk) 05:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
We may see a second civil war, history will tell 47.40.177.156 (talk) 05:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Wait. Perhaps the article should be renamed to 2023 Russian coup d'etat in the future). I suggest to wait until the events end and/or become clear. Just like the Sudan case. PLATEL (talk) 05:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Wait - just about nothing has happened besides some videos of tanks, there have been no casualties (at least that I've seen). For example, this could easily be some sort of distraction by Russia to disguise a new offensive; it is too early to determine what this is GLORIOUSEXISTENCE (talk) 05:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Wait. Camilo Sánchez Talk to me 05:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Agree it has become far too widespread to be a simple mutiny judging by the capture of the Southern Military HQ 24.236.137.89 (talk) 05:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Comment - would prefer "Wagner Group rebellion" or something along those lines. Augend (drop a line) 05:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Wait. Too soon to give a title that implies a civil war, which hasn't occurred at the moment. I think the year should also be added in the title as others have proposed ADifferentMan (talk) 06:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Agree. With the 11th largest city in Russia apparently captured and under Wagner's military control, this is way beyond a "mutiny" at this point. —Fuchsia 'tude (talk) 06:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Agree: Seconding this argument. CJ-Moki (talk) 07:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Putin has just admitted in a tv address that the country is facing a real civil war.--KoberTalk 07:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Comment - Hi all - mostly everyone wants to remove mutiny - I htink most people would agree "2023 Wagner Group Rebellion" is the best option. Another move request to support this is below https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wagner_Group_mutiny#Requested_move_24_June_2023%2C_adding_%22Group%22_and_%222023%22Deathlibrarian (talk) 06:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I believe you can change the move request to "2023 Wagner Group Rebellion". I just don't like how there are two different move requests even though they both have the same consensus. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 06:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Agree I, too, believe that rebellion is a more apt term. 72.179.249.34 (talk) 07:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Oppose - they're not trying to overthrow the government, just calling for the removal of two people. All news articles are describing it as a mutiny, and it's what it's been called by the Russians. Sir Magnus has spoken! (So can you!) 07:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Wait until the situation becomes clearer. "Wagner Group mutiny" as a title is fine for now. If it is to be changed, the full name "Wagner Group" should be part of the name, eg. "Wagner Group rebellion". There's no need for a year; either they succeed, or they won't get a second chance at this. — The Anome (talk) 07:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Do not do anythng and wait for at least a week, the situation is changing too quickly.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:29, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Absolutely not. It is now that this article will receive the greatest number of readers seeking information (exactly the aim of an encyclopedia). It is also now that information is uncertain that outlets will resort to places such as indeed Wikipedia for information, we're risking altering information artificially and unnaturally (WP:CITOGENESIS, WP:CIRCULAR). We need to act fast. Super Ψ Dro 09:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
As I said above, we do not have that time. We need to offer readers the best information possible and to take measures to avoid circular reporting. If most sources used "rebellion" but because Wikipedia called it a "mutiny" it is this word that became the most common, Wikipedia has failed in its purpose. Super Ψ Dro 09:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
*Wait Wait until more info comes out, this situation has, can and will change rapidly. Justanotherguy54 (talk) 08:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Comment Neutral on whether the title is mutiny or rebellion, but either way it should not be capitalised as it is not a proper noun. 2A02:C7F:2CC5:5A00:A427:E859:DC99:3D6D (talk) 08:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Support I am actually confused on if this is a coup, rebellion, mutiny, whatever you want to call it, it's in the very early stages. But that being said, the proposed title of "Wagner Group Rebellion" seems most accurate, at least temporarily. Completely Random Guy (talk) 08:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Agree, should be rebellion. 2A02:2908:4101:F4E7:9DA6:217:2FDB:E096 (talk) 08:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Support The actions and methods used by Wagner constitute more than just a mutiny, but a legitimate rebellion against the Russians state. They are holding multiple cities at this point, usually a mutiny is on a much smaller, localized scale. Monological (talk) 09:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Comment Whatever decision is taken i'd suggest that adding 2023 to the title is probably a good idea, not only because it sounds better but also because i'm fairly sure most articles like this have the year in the title. MJ9674 (talk) 09:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The !votes at #Mutiny or Rebellion? ought to also be considered. Super Ψ Dro 09:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Yes, of course.—Alalch E. 09:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Note: Two of the above links do not work because the sections were removed by another editor in this edit: Special:Diff/1161681311—Alalch E. 10:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose on Revolt Now while Rebellion and Revolt seem to blend together a lot, there is a agreement that a revolt seeks to destroy government (or in this case a part of government). However this doesn't seem to be Wagner's main goal, It seems that they want to remove Shoigu, not destroy the ministry of defense. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 10:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Agreed. Super Ψ Dro 10:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support "Rebellion" is less likely to be misinterpreted. as "mutiny" could suggest an internal conflict within Wagner PMC. Wikolitan (talk) 10:35, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Strong support Like I've stated before in the previous discussion, mutiny is not the correct word here. Rebellion is more correct and appropriate to use, because a mutiny, in the more narrow sense, commonly refers to when soldiers in the lower ranks rebel against their own officers and leaders. The title could be very misleading here, and imply that some of Prigozhin's soldiers rebelled against Prigozhin himself. Also, not to mention the fact that PMC Wagner is completely unaffiliated with the Russian MOD, and hence they have not committed any mutiny, as they are a PMC and an alone-standing military group. This rebellion is also far too much of an escalation to be called a "mutiny", because of the fact that Wagner's advances into cities like Rostov heavily increase the risk of a civil war occurring. TwistedAxe [contact] 10:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
    Support I second this. Rebellion seems more correct than mutiny, and is more precise. It is past the point of a mutiny. We will have to see how the situation develops, but for now it looks to be a rebellion by Wagner. DJ-Aomand (talk) 11:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support (for now) - I think "Wagner Group coup attempt" might be more accurate, but in the comming days I'm pretty sure WP:RS will settle on a consensus on what to call this situation, and we should use whatever that is. In the interim, I support saying rebellion instead of mutiny. By the plain definitions of the words, this isn't a mutiny, but it is rebellion. Fieari (talk) 11:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
• Agree Because a "mutiny" does not have political goals, while there are definitely political goals in this case. Additionally, a "mutiny" implies that one group is fully subordinate to the other group, which is not the case here. The PMC Wagner Group was simply tied to the Russian MoD through a contract. For these reasons, "rebellion" or even "coup d'etat" would be the more appropriate terms. Ilan Be. (talk) 11:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Strong support "Wagner Group Rebellion" As PMC, they are not part of Russia's chain of command, so they cannot mutiny against them; Prigozhin is Wagner's highest commanding officer.
675930s (talk) 11:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
100% SUPPORT. Wagner has thrown Russia into a state of civil war in less than a day. That isn't a mutiny. That's rebellion. Redacted II (talk) 11:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Agree Knowing a bit more know and the circumstances, "rebellion" is a better word to use than "mutiny". If this escalates even more, than my vote is also for a possible "coup d'etat". Bakir123 (talk) 12:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support. An event of this magnitude can't be classified as a mere "mutiny". Also, as mentioned above, this situation could evolve into a "coup d'état" in near future, and could possibly require further renaming as the events unfold. — Sundostund mppria (talk / contribs) 12:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support--This is on a far larger scale than a mutiny. The Wagner Group captured a city of 1 million people and may have taken or be about to take Voronezh, another large city. The situation is developing so rapidly that by the time this discussion concludes, we may be calling it a coup or civil war. The Quirky Kitty (talk) 12:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support - Terminology around the word 'mutiny' supposes a small group of soldiers defying orders in a way that only involves one specific location or a tiny few of them. This is far beyond that already. We're talking about a militant campaign to take over a widespread set of places across a whole territory. And the Wagner Group's leader has already made it clear that his enemy is Putin, personally. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 12:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Light support, some sources still use mutiny but im seeing an increase in "rebellion"'s usage, and the rationale of other editors makes sense Presidentofyes12 (talk) 12:46, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support - Wagner company heading to Moscow, successful capture of a military district and reportedly some Russian military elements joining Prigozhin for an armed cause against Putin is technically beyond a mutiny. The almighty anomalocaris • chat 12:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Support We define a mutiny (on our page for it) as a revolt to overthrow an organization to which a group was previously loyal. While one of the goals of this is certainly to overthrow the MoD, it is equally clear from statements and footage that Wagner is attempting to take over complete cities, which is getting outside the range of a mutiny.
2G0o2De0l (talk) 13:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 24 June 2023, adding "Group" and "2023"

procedural close. Two RMs can't run at the same time. Keeping the older and better attended RM open. It doesn't matter that the proposed title in the original RM has a miscapitalized word, that's not a reason to start a duplicate RM. Ongoing RM: #Requested move 24 June 2023. (non-admin closure) —Alalch E. 09:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

As we said in the other Requested move, people agree on adding group and 2023 to it. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 05:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Partial Agree - I also think we should "2023" to the title and make "rebellion" lower case, making it 2023 Wagner Group rebellion. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:19, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Agree with AmericanBaath: in full. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 05:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Agree- consensus seems to be to rename it to - *2023 Wagner Group Rebellion* Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC) Lets change it to that please, and remove mutiny at least, which is clealry incorrect. Deathlibrarian (talk) 05:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Agree. I wasn't going to add very much, just look for information. However as above, I agree with adding "2023". However should rebellion be with small 'r'? - Master Of Ninja (talk) 06:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Opposed to 2023 - Has this happened in the past? Parham wiki (talk) 09:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Be careful and maybe delete the article

Odd conspiracy theory — Czello (music) 15:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


I think this is a ruse and this site shouldn't help Putin pull it off. If it is and some Russian reads this article and is inspired to join a false cause, then there might be blood on the hands of the editors on here. This article should be deleted in order to avoid interfering. 2604:2D80:6305:600:21FF:8A5D:758:ED86 (talk) 10:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

If that made any logical sense at all, international news outlets would be culpable, too. Raccoon Enthusiast (talk) 11:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
We cannot, and WILL NOT, delete this article. It is our job, no, our duty, as Wikipedia editors, to provide the truth, especially regarding events like this. Redacted II (talk) 11:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_newspaper 82.27.191.105 (talk) 15:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
No, actually- even if this is somehow some elaborately planned and uncharacteristically well-executed ruse, it's still an event that must be covered here. Your own belief that this is a ruse is not valid reasoning to delete the article, not at all Presidentofyes12 (talk) 12:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I believe it is dubious to provide updates for events such as this in real time where information will change on a hour by hour basis as if Wikipedia is journalism. For example, updating battlefield losses in real time is essentially providing potentially unreliable information as if it is fact. 82.27.191.105 (talk) 13:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Even if this were to be a "ruse", it would be the most notable geopolitical ruse of the 21st century to-date. 217.180.228.188 (talk) 13:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 24 June 2023 (3)

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved.WP:SNOW. (non-admin closure) Ecrusized (talk) 15:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Wagner Group rebellion → Rebellion of the Wagner Group – The article was successfully moved from "mutiny" to "rebellion". Now I only want to purpose a change in wording which in my opinion feels more natural. There's many articles following this style, see Rebellion of the Alpujarras (1568–1571), Rebellion of the Three Guards or Rebellion of 1088. Super Ψ Dro 14:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Oppose Unnecessarily longer/more disjointed. The Kip (talk) 15:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Oppose along with the other editors above. This change would add nothing. BogLogs (talk) 15:24, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Moving it adds nothing, and the longer title makes it less accesible.
Sincerely, Key of G Minor. Tools: (talk, contribs) 15:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Requested move 24 June 2023

(non-admin closure) Closing early as the IP who started this discussion is a sock who is spamming move requests at multiple talk pages. Nythar (💬-🍀) 17:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wagner Group rebellion → 2023 Russian conflict – makes more sense 82.79.211.8 (talk) 17:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Strong Oppose; extremely vague and ambiguous. OfTheUsername (talk) 17:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Strongly oppose - Very vague, could mean anything from the War in Ukraine in 2023 to an international diplomatic conflict. No point.
Sincerely, Key of G Minor. Tools: (talk, contribs) 17:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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Should a map be included?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Discussion continues here: #Map?—Alalch E. 13:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Given that this is pretty clearly a revolt, should we create a map of some sort? I've already have one pre-made, though I've realized that mapping out the specifics at this point is difficult for obvious reasons. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk · Contribs) 05:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Please do one which doesnt label Ukrainian territory as “Russia”. Volunteer Marek 06:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
As far as can be told the map is supposed to be a defacto controll map not a political map there for labling those regions as being russia would imply they are russian controlled not literally a part of russia and thus the map should be mostly fine EnthrallingUsername (talk) 07:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
This needs to be clear. Volunteer Marek 07:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I'm of the opinion that A map showing defacto control serves the most utility in this developing situation. Although a distinction between what is occupied Ukrainian territory under defacto Russian control could be helpful. Dragon105 (talk) 07:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
It’s also unclear what the different shades mean. Volunteer Marek 06:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I've added keys to the caption detailing the meaning for the shades. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk · Contribs) 07:16, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Perhaps the shades could eventually be modified to be a bit more colourblind accessible? I know this is not top priority but as a colourblind person I find the colour choice is a bit hard to tell the difference between. EnthrallingUsername (talk) 07:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
As @Volunteer Marek said, your map needs to clarify what the shades mean. Personally I know what the shades mean having seen similar maps on YouTube videos, but it still needs clarification. AsyarSaronen (talk) 06:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The map currently on there is ridiculous in overestimating Wagner control. We have no evidence that Wagner has anything but a few convoys in Rostov and along the highway to Voronezh 24.4.112.195 (talk) 06:57, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I agree. If there is a map at all, it should only colour yellow those areas that have been confirmed to have a sustained Wagner presence. Right now that seems to be only Bakhmut, Rostov-on-Don and Voronezh. AsyarSaronen (talk) 06:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Don't let this discourage you @Knightoftheswords281. I would prefer for there to be a map somewhere on the article for quick reference as to the status of the mutiny/coup/rebellion/what-have-you. AsyarSaronen (talk) 07:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The original map just colored the area around Rostov. The additions since was added by @Borysk5:, who cited this tweet. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk · Contribs) 07:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Please elaborate that the areas colored as Wagner are NOT under the military occupation of Wagner besides key cities such as Rostov (as of now most have left)
Wagner is clearly moving through these territories instead of occupying them and they should thus be colored or stated as such 76.132.246.141 (talk) 07:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Pretty much every military map are de facto control based, meaning that areas where troops "move by" are still colored as control (see for example, C:File:Syrian_Civil_War_map.svg and the amount of sparsely populated desert is still colored). I do agree that the territory under the Wagner can be trimmed. - Knightoftheswords281 (Talk · Contribs) 07:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
the map is real and accurate Chudcel (talk) 07:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Wagneratriots in control trust the plan Chudcel (talk) 07:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Slava Prigozhin! Chudcel (talk) 07:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Feels far too early to determine the scale and extent of territorial gains/losses on an amateurish map like this when even the nature of the conflict is still dubious at the moment. Give it a week? Or stringent community input/standards like there are on the main Ukraine invasion map? ‒overthrows 07:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
A map is a good idea, but the borders of occupation in the current map is completely arbitrary and highly misleading. A map showing settlements and highways with a confirmed Wagner presence would be more appropriate. Wikolitan (talk) 10:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Map should not be included until it's clear that there are areas under "control" of Wagner Group beyond just simply passing through. "Wagner Presence" is also not clearly defined. Members of an organization being present an area does not mean that area is governed or occupied by that organization. Nacles (talk) 12:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Them map is absolutely necessary! Actually, it is the only most important piece of information that I use in this post. Amateurish? Let it be; but it is updated and gives information at a glance. As a similar example, in the Wikipedia article "Russian invasion in Ukraine" I *only* use the map, and nearly never read the text. The map us useful to triple-check the claims of other sources. A picture is worth thousand words. Please put back the map, even if it is not perfect. Pterodaktilis (talk) 13:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Map colors

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Discussion continues here: #Map?—Alalch E. 13:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

How come Crimea is painted as Russian territory? According to international treaties and ratified boundaries, Crimea is the (temporary occupied by Russia) territory of Ukraine. It should be painted by light green. Let's correct. Pterodaktilis (talk) 07:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agree - Crimea is occupied by Russian forces, so it should be the middle green. Leave dark green for legal Russian territory.
Bigfatman8766 (talk) 07:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
@Bigfatman8766 @Pterodaktilis I fixed this and made Crimea occupied in the most recent update of the map. Noorullah (talk) 07:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Disagree - Crimea has been integrated into Russia for the last 8 years and is de facto Russian territory. According to the legend I woold say that is territorial control, rather than an occupation. 2600:8801:BE32:7300:E2:6D4C:F06D:8951 (talk) 07:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
"De facto" means it is not legally recognized, Crimea is de facto territory of Russia, so it is not legally Russia and so it is being occupied.
Bigfatman8766 (talk) 07:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Defacto doesn't necessarily tie into legal recognition. Defacto (in fact) just refers to the on ground reality of control, while dejure (in law) is the legal status of the territory. Therefore an area can be both dejure and defacto controlled by a political entity. Dragon105 (talk) 08:16, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
This is false, De jure means in law, De facto means in fact or in reality, thus something can be both de jure and de facto at the same time. Additionally while there has not been foriegn recognition of Russian ownership of Crimea the fact of the matter is they have for the last 8 years been the one with all meaningful controll of Crimea. Thus while there is not technical recognition of it, it helps no one to obfuscate the fact that it has been entirely in Russian hands for 8 years even if technically most countries dont recognise it. As an example there was a time when after the end of the civil war the Republic of China and it's claims where still recognised officially but the Peoples Republic of China controlled the mainland, and at that point would have been strange to say the ROC owned it at all even though their claims where recognised by many countries. EnthrallingUsername (talk) 08:19, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The fact that Crimea is not legally recognized as a part of Russia outside Russia is very important during these events, much more important than the fact that Russia had certain degree of control over that territory for the last 8 years. Thus it must be in different color than the officially recognized territory of Russian Federation. Moreover, the status of Crimea is very similar to the status of Donetsk Oblast' of Ukraine, so painting them light green is consistent.
If yo want, you can pick shades of light green to encode the time span for which different Ukrainian territories were under Russian de facto control, but this will make the map even more complicate and is not relevant for understanding the current events.
Therefore, I vote to have Crimea in the same color as Lugansk and Donetsk regions, and also the same color as the Ukrainian territories occupied by Russia after the 24th of Feb. 2022. Pterodaktilis (talk) 08:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
"De facto" is not a well defined term. For example, Donetsk and Lugansk regions were under "de facto" Russian control to varying degree during the last 8 year period – first through the proxy separatist groups and covert Russian army presence, later through the overt Russian occupation. They are light green, as occupied territories. The same logic applies to Crimea, so it should be light green for consistency and to avoid misleading the readers (I was mislead).
The only consistent an unambiguous way to assign territory colors is to paint them according to international treaties that are currently in force. Pterodaktilis (talk) 08:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
This is completely bogus. Ukraine isn't even the only country with this color scheme on Wikipedia. Killuminator (talk) 10:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023

Reaction of Dutch Minister or Foreign Affairs Wopke Hoekstra on the Wagner Group Mutiny: "Volg met veel aandacht de binnenlandse ontwikkelingen in Rusland. Daarnaast ben ik in nauw contact met de ambassade, die er alles aan doet om een duidelijk beeld te krijgen van de situatie. Via het reisadvies & de informatieservice informeren we Nederlanders die in het land zijn."

Translated: "Following the internal developments in Russia with close attention. Also in close contact with the embassy, which is doing everything in their power to get a clear image of the current situation. We inform our citizens by means of our travel advice and the information service [of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs]."

https://twitter.com/WBHoekstra/status/1672526599277666304

Do with is as you like, Keep up the good work! 2A02:A460:301E:1:E074:B329:84E:116 (talk) 10:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

If at all welcomed, I can keep an eye on Dutch and Belgian reactions on the conflict. Chesteroy (talk) 10:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for this invaluable contribution, it will be added to the article. Noorullah (talk) 10:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Reaction of president Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine: "Everyone who chooses the path of evil destroys himself. Who sends columns of troops to destroy the lives of another country and cannot stop them from fleeing and betraying when life resists. Who terrorizes with missiles, and when they are shot down, humiliates himself to receive Shahed drones. Who despises people and throws hundreds of thousands into the war, in order to eventually barricade himself in the Moscow region from those whom he himself armed. For a long time, Russia used propaganda to mask its weakness and the stupidity of its government. And now there is so much chaos that no lie can hide it. And all this is one person, who again and again scares by the year 1917, although he is able to result in nothing else but this. Russia's weakness is obvious. Full-scale weakness. And the longer Russia keeps its troops and mercenaries on our land, the more chaos, pain, and problems it will have for itself later. It is also obvious. Ukraine is able to protect Europe from the spread of Russian evil and chaos. We keep our resilience, unity and strength. All our commanders, all our soldiers know what to do. Glory to Ukraine!"
https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1672543858863767552
Keep on the good work! Chesteroy (talk) 11:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Reaction of UK prime minister Rishi Sunak in an interview with the BBC on the 24th of June 2023: “We’ve been monitoring for a while now, the potentially destabilising impacts of Russia’s illegal war in Ukraine. We’re keeping a close eye on the situation as it’s evolving on the ground as we speak. We’re in touch with our allies and in fact I’ll be speaking with them some of them later today. But the most important thing I’d say is for all parties to be responsible and to protect civilians.”
Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-66006142?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6496c6e4523d5b1261708478%26UK%20government%27s%20emergency%20committee%20to%20meet%20as%20Rishi%20Sunak%20responds%262023-06-24T11%3A08%3A55.429Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:ca437233-ecb1-40a1-bbad-2cd0bd6d44ca&pinned_post_asset_id=6496c6e4523d5b1261708478&pinned_post_type=share
Keep on the good work! Chesteroy (talk) 11:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (3)

UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak urged "all parties to exercise responsibility and protect civilian lives".[1]

References

  1. ^ https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-66006142?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6496c6e4523d5b1261708478%26UK%20government%27s%20emergency%20committee%20meets%20as%20Rishi%20Sunak%20responds%262023-06-24T11%3A08%3A55.429Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:ca437233-ecb1-40a1-bbad-2cd0bd6d44ca&pinned_post_asset_id=6496c6e4523d5b1261708478&pinned_post_type=share

Lukys1 (talk) 11:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Wiht source and full text:
Reaction of UK prime minister Rishi Sunak in an interview with the BBC on the 24th of June 2023: “We’ve been monitoring for a while now, the potentially destabilising impacts of Russia’s illegal war in Ukraine. We’re keeping a close eye on the situation as it’s evolving on the ground as we speak. We’re in touch with our allies and in fact I’ll be speaking with them some of them later today. But the most important thing I’d say is for all parties to be responsible and to protect civilians.”
Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-66006142?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=6496c6e4523d5b1261708478%26UK%20government%27s%20emergency%20committee%20to%20meet%20as%20Rishi%20Sunak%20responds%262023-06-24T11%3A08%3A55.429Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:ca437233-ecb1-40a1-bbad-2cd0bd6d44ca&pinned_post_asset_id=6496c6e4523d5b1261708478&pinned_post_type=share
Keep on the good work Chesteroy (talk) 11:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Please specify where you'd like this sentence added to the article. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Canadian Response


PM Trudeau stated: "Canada's incident response group will meet on Saturday to discuss the latest developments in Russia," and in a tweet said, "Canada is in contact with allies and will continue to monitor the situation closely."

Source: https://ca.news.yahoo.com/ottawa-says-monitoring-tensions-russia-154643753.html

45.44.182.194 (talk) 17:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

References

 Partly done: the latter part of that quote has been added. Nythar (💬-🍀) 20:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (7)

[note 2] says "theree" instead of "there".

So it should be:

"There were Mi-8MTPR-1 electronic warfare helicopters, one Mi-35 Hind, one Ka-52 Alligator, one Mi-8 Transport,[10][11] and one An-26 transport plane.[12]"

instead of:

"Theree were Mi-8MTPR-1 electronic warfare helicopters, one Mi-35 Hind, one Ka-52 Alligator, one Mi-8 Transport,[10][11] and one An-26 transport plane.[12]"

(bolded to show difference) 115.188.159.190 (talk) 20:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done Nythar (💬-🍀) 20:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Putin did mention Wagner explicitly.

The sentence "However, Putin did not mention Prigozhin or Wagner explicitly." should be removed, since Putin did mention it on his speech: http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/71496 He does it in the eighth paragraph. Ektoras duncan (talk) 11:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I wonder if this comes under the primary source policy 675930s (talk) 12:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
The statement's not sourced in the Meduza article anyway, so I removed it. HappyWith (talk) 02:10, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Alleged fighting in Rostov-on-Don?

Several videos and claims of clashes between the MoD and Wagner in Rostov are circulating, eg [6]. Should these be mentioned, or should we wait for more sources to report on these? If it turns out to be a major fight, should there be a separate article for the "battle"? Chaotic Enby (talk) 01:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

It could be an option that we make a mention of "Unconfirmed footage of clashes", Since we don't have any way of confirming them as of right now. OneMoron (talk) 01:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Agree with this! Chaotic Enby (talk) 01:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I also agree with this, so long as they're mentioned in WP:RS. CJ-Moki (talk) 01:29, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
But it isn't. This tweet is not a reliable source. Nythar (💬-🍀) 01:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
That's why it should say "unverified claims". War Monitor is usually right about a lot of things -- just in my experience. Professor Penguino (talk) 05:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
We are gonna need to wait for reliable sources to report on the issue, it just occurred less than an hour ago, it could be a second civil war 47.40.177.156 (talk) 05:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Comparisons

Someone needs to compare and contrast the start of the russian revolution. 2602:306:BC74:6240:2D1B:6FD8:BBA:3BE0 (talk) 01:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I think the Wagner PMC's existence besides the normal military is pretty much unprecedented. Gerdolfo (talk) 10:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Possible involvement from other Russian military units

Multiple videos/images circulating currently of soldiers fighting alongside Wagner in Rostov wearing patches consistent with the Russian National Guard as well as vehicles belonging to other units. Nothing confirmed in terms of media coverage but just be on the lookout for it so we can update the infobox as needed.

If and when media begin to report on it, I would begin to think of this more as a coup attempt rather than a mutiny or a rebellion and would recommend changing the article title to reflect that. QuaintCable (talk) 04:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Additional Reaction to Mutiny

Add Exiled Russian-Jewish Billionarie and Liberal opposition activist Mikhail Khodorkovsky's support for the Wagner group expressed in the following posts under the "International Reactions" topic:

https://t.me/khodorkovski/8345 https://archive.is/lb1xv LocalStinko (talk) 04:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Appears to be have been implemented with different sources. Thanks! LocalStinko (talk) 18:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Dmitry Utkin in commanders and leaders

The infobox lists Dmitry Utkin in the "commanders and leanders" for the Wagner Group. There seems to be a lack of evidence for involvement by Utkin, however, and the man has made no public appearances since 2016. Is there any reason to believe he is involved? AmericanBaath (talk) 05:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Nope. I removed him and the other commander earlier and was reverted without explanation. I'm going to re-remove the material. HappyWith (talk) 05:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Utkin still issues messages via the Wagner Concord Group Telegram channel, in which he sided with Prigozhin in their earlier scuffle with the MoD over ammunition. He was also cited as the "Commander" of Wagner in the Prigozhin-affiliated RIA FAN news site as late as April 2023, after claiming credit for the seizure of Bakhmut. NAADAAN (talk) 16:18, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
But did he take place in this uprising specifically? That's the key issue here. Wikipedia isn't the place for educated guesses, even when they're factually true - it's for info that's obviously and clearly sourced to reliable publications. To actually put it in, we would need to see the Institute for the Study of War or Meduza or something saying "Dmitri Utkin was also seen leading troops in Rostov" or something like that. HappyWith (talk) 20:21, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Is it appropriate to call this a coup?

I don't think there is enough information out as of yet to warrant calling this a coup, much less a Civil War. What do you guys think? Professor Penguino (talk) 05:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Nope. Coups succeed in toppling governments, by definition. Nothing yet to show that occurring here. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 05:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Agreed Professor Penguino (talk) 05:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Well, attempted coups are still called coups, whether they are successful or not. The salient point here is that Priggy is still (by the looks of it) loyal to Putin and isn't attempting to overthrow the Russian government - only a part of it. That's why coup, attempted or not, is not the right word at all. AbominableIntelligence (talk) 05:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
None of our sources call it a coup or coup attempt so I've removed references to that for now. — Czello (music) 08:26, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Casualties

Recently found a video of a "downed Wagner helicopter" https://t.me/rusbrief/129265 Clearly see the tail of the helicopter as something is burning 76.132.246.141 (talk) 05:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

https://t.me/milinfolive/102549?single
Another of a burning Wagner technical pickup truck and claims that there is an unknown truck burning as well but not shown in the photo 76.132.246.141 (talk) 05:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
According Yevgeny Prigozhin on Telegram, three Russian military helicopters have been shot down, not one. AmericanBaath (talk) 05:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

More Contextualization Is Needed: Events Predating June 23

We're forgetting the larger context to this: on June 10, all mercenary groups were ordered by Shoigu to register with the Russian military by the end of June. The Wagner group refused that order on June 11, which clearly set the stage for the trainwreck to come. Though the claimed attack on the Wagner group, that set off this rebellion, hasn't (yet) been decisively confirmed, it's clear from context that the action would have been the "or else" part of Shoigu's order, and is clearly motivated by that rationale, and should be understood as such in that larger context. At the very least, the earlier events should be listed as "precursors" to the revolt, since the conflict entailed by the June 10 declaration and June 11 response set the stage for what was to come. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.29.226.169 (talk) 14:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done. I've added in material about the order to register. HappyWith (talk) 02:41, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Finished

Didnt they agree on a “peace treaty”? If so then this article needs to be changed a bit. 46.8.172.177 (talk) 19:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done - the infobox now reflects that the rebellion is over. HappyWith (talk) 01:32, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 June 2023

I found some grammar error in the aftermath section (the word at the very end of the section) please change the sentence from "things" to "armed rebellion" Little kevin341 Edits (talk) 03:53, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Fixed. Super Ψ Dro 08:10, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Information about hostages among relatives of the Wagner Groups soldiers

Why was this sentence deleted?

"These talks were preceded by a fact that, according to Olga Romanova, the head of the civil rights organization Russia Behind Bars, the Federal Security Service started to take hostages from the family members of the convicts recruited by the Wagner Group.[1]"

Here is another source https://novayagazeta.eu/articles/2023/06/24/voiska-prigozhina-voshli-v-rostov-chvk-vagner-podderzhal-khodorkovskii K8M8S8 (talk) 20:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I Google-Translated the articles you linked, and she doesn't really say that? The most similar thing is in the NG source, where she says something along the lines of: "Relatives of [Wagner-recruited] prisoners received messages from the FSB, requesting their personal data for the military registration and enlistment offices(?). They don't tell the relatives why this is happening, but, apparently, we're talking about hostages." I did what I could to decipher the roughly translated version, but at most it seems like she's saying that it's just vague threats from the FSB - not, as the wikitext implied, "the FSB is literally taking hostages".
Can any Russian speakers translate this better? I'm really not confident in my rough translation, so there is probably something I'm missing.
@K8M8S8 To answer your question, I think we could add the passage back if we just stick closer to what the source says - that Olga Romanova accused the FSB of threatening relatives of Wagner convicts. More info might come out later, and then we could say more. HappyWith (talk) 20:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
@HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith Ok. Let's do that. K8M8S8 (talk) 20:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Done. I think another problem with the original text may have been that it insinuated that the hostage-taking was an incentive in the deal when the source never mentioned that, so I didn't include that in the re-added text either. HappyWith (talk) 20:46, 24 June 2023 (UTC)


References

  1. ^ ""Пригожин загнан в угол". Ольга Романова о том, могут ли начаться бунты в колониях России". Current Time TV (in Russian). 24 June 2023.

Denis Kapustin telegram source

@Norschweden Per WP:BRD, can you please explain why you reverted my edit and restored material coming from a primary source? We can't use this post unless reliable media are also covering it. HappyWith (talk) 20:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

there is no general primary sources ban, even tho some people might think so. and for a quote of a reaction i's perfectly accaptable by wikipedia rules to use a primary source. it would be simply idiotic to not cover it here just because a aecondary source wasn't referenced Norschweden (talk) 22:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
It's a moot point anyway - I found a non-primary source for his speech, and added it in. https://news.obozrevatel.com/ukr/russia/u-lavah-rosijskih-dobrovoltsiv-rozkol-rdk-pidtrimav-prigozhina-legion-svoboda-rosii-vistupiv-proti-vsih.htm HappyWith (talk) 03:35, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Should "Wagner Group" be used or "PMC Wagner"?

PMC Wagner is the official name of the group and is also easier to type, but their are multiple instances on Wikipedia where the unofficial name is used. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 07:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-june-23-2023 Marginataen (talk) 07:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
@Bigfatman8766 Also done, changed Wagner Group to PMC Wagner per its official name. Noorullah (talk) 07:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
In the article prose we should just say "Wagner", which is what the sources typically use, not "Wagner Group" or "PMC Wagner" or "Wagner PMC". Saying simply Wagner is the most natural.—Alalch E. 12:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the area controlled by the Wagner Group is that large.

I have seen many videos about Wagner Group mutiny on telegram and twitter and I think it is too early to say that wagner has taken control of Rostov Oblast and Voronezh Oblast because so far there is little video evidence to support that wagner group has taken control of Rostov Oblast and Voronezh Oblast. so in my opinion at the moment wagner grub only controls the city of Rostov-on-Don and the surrounding satellite cities. Bukansatya (talk) 08:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Images

It would be nice if images of Wagner forces in the streets or any of the reported fighting can be added --Nilsol2 (talk) 08:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

@Nilsol2 All of the Wikipedia images have to be copyright free, and right now almost all of the footage from Rostov is copyrighted by news agencies or their private owners. The only way to submit a image in this article is to manually add it by an owner of one. Kuraczan (talk) 09:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
We've got images now: File:Prigozhin rebellion Rostov tank with flowers in the muzzle June 24.jpg and File:Prigozhin rebellion Rostov man in front of the police June 24.jpg. I put one of them into the article, but we could also use the other one. Not totally sure what stage of the rebellion these images are from, but I think editors can work it out. HappyWith (talk) 00:54, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Wagner Group casualties

Why does this section in the table include casualties before the actual start of the event? Killuminator (talk) 09:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Add putin's address?

This morning. Putin released an address to the nation regarding the "armed rebellion" in Russia. This is not only a primary source, but the address will probably be a definitive video in russian history. However, it is basically propaganda... Bigfatman8766 (talk) 09:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 26 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Non-ECP user making ECP move request. (non-admin closure) Ecrusized (talk) 08:40, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Wagner Group rebellion → 2023 Wagner Group rebellion – I propose to change the article title from Wagner Group rebellion to 2023 Wagner Group rebellion WIKIROBOTBOT (talk) 07:57, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

@WIKIROBOTBOT strong oppose. Not only is there only one Wagner Group rebellion, but 2023 isn’t even over yet so we can’t be sure there won’t be a second Wagner Group rebellion in the same year. As a result the proposed title has an unnecessary qualifier which may not even be unique. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 08:08, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Putin address video

Reddit~enwiki (talk) 11:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

A new February Revolution

Prigozhin previously warned of a new 1917 [7] and reemphasized its basis [8] and now we have Potemkin Mutiny [9] -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 06:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The info about the "new 1917" is already in the article, as well as him accusing the MoD of lying about the cause of the war. Is there anything else you want to add? HappyWith (talk) 16:31, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Second Russian Civil War

I know this may be dumb question, but would the mutiny be considered a civil war? If not, why? TheMaster3dit0r6969 (talk) 09:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Civil wars have civilians fighting each other. This isn't happening now. Super Ψ Dro 10:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Civil wars include armed groups, like the Wagner or Syrian national Army TheTechnologyGuy23 (talk) 10:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Civil wars often consist of multiple groups fighting multiple groups, The last russian civil war was a hot mess of reds vs whites vs seperatists, and these sides weren't united in one single group. Right now this is Wagner vs Russia, and I would also say the situation is not large enough to call a civil war. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 10:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
It would most likely be: Russia vs Wagner vs Russian pro-democracy rebels+ukraine TheTechnologyGuy23 (talk) 10:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
In good-faith, Your understanding of what defines a "civil war" is flawed, the American Civil War by your standards (a war between the two sides of Union and Confederate) would not be a civil war. AverageWikiEditingEnjoyer (talk) 08:57, 24 June 2023 (EST)
No it is not a civil war, if you want something 'comparable' (I use that extremely loosely here) this is more akin to Kornilov's Revolt if anything Tweedle (talk) 10:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
It is still too early to say that this mutiny is a civil war. If it takes longer, yes, it's civil war. Of course, provided that it is widespread, like the civil wars of the American and Libya. Parham wiki (talk) 11:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I think if any other factions join Wagner, including Russian military units, then it would at that point be Russian military vs Russian military and be a civil war. Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
It's too early to talk about civil war. But the situation is evolving. DR5996 (talk) 13:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
It might not be considered a civil war due to potentially not meeting the scale, intensity, duration, and casualty thresholds often used to define such conflicts.
However, these classifications be somewhat subjective and can vary depending on the specific definitions used.
If the conflict is not resolved within a short to medium long period (1 to 6 months) without major changes to the national leadership, I would call it a civil war. MathiasL05 (talk) 13:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

At some point it may be but not there yet. For our purposes we wait for sources. Volunteer Marek 15:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Volodymyr Zelenskyy's response

Volodymyr Zelenskyy responsed to this mutiny on Telegram: [10]. BlackShadowG (talk) 11:34, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Also on twitter.
President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine in a tweet on the 24th of June: "Everyone who chooses the path of evil destroys himself. Who sends columns of troops to destroy the lives of another country and cannot stop them from fleeing and betraying when life resists. Who terrorizes with missiles, and when they are shot down, humiliates himself to receive Shahed drones. Who despises people and throws hundreds of thousands into the war, in order to eventually barricade himself in the Moscow region from those whom he himself armed. For a long time, Russia used propaganda to mask its weakness and the stupidity of its government. And now there is so much chaos that no lie can hide it. And all this is one person, who again and again scares by the year 1917, although he is able to result in nothing else but this. Russia's weakness is obvious. Full-scale weakness. And the longer Russia keeps its troops and mercenaries on our land, the more chaos, pain, and problems it will have for itself later. It is also obvious. Ukraine is able to protect Europe from the spread of Russian evil and chaos. We keep our resilience, unity and strength. All our commanders, all our soldiers know what to do. Glory to Ukraine!"
https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1672543858863767552
Was removed from international reactions because it was too lengthy, but might be valuable nonetheless considering the Russo-Ukrainian conflict. Chesteroy (talk) 11:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
already compressed it. Borgenland (talk) 12:10, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Personal chef

> Yevgeny Prigozhin was formerly sometimes described as a confidant of Russian president Vladimir Putin and was his personal chef.

This phrase is clearly some kind of nonsense. What kind of chef when by the 2000s he was an accomplished businessman? What? Personal chef? That's his nickname not his job Gamma1138 (talk) 12:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Reports of Wagner in Moscow Oblast?

Apparently Wagner forces were reported to be in the oblast, having passed Barabanovo, with rumors of them being on the outskirts of Moscow itself. Should the map be updated? Chaotic Enby (talk) 14:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

What is your source? 🌶️Jalapeño🌶️ Don't click this link! 14:58, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Still eyewitnesses accounts so not much. But heard on Twitter Spaces that the Russian police confirmed Wagner forces in the oblast, trying to find a direct quote from them. Chaotic Enby (talk) 15:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Take this with more than a few pinches of salt, but here's a report Chaotic Enby (talk) 14:59, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
More tweets, not great as sources but good as an indication that we can look for better sources Chaotic Enby (talk) 15:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
If you have to add the comment regarding pinches of salt, it is not appropriate for Wikipedia. Kindly stop trying to add misinformation to the article. Kremshin (talk) 15:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Not saying these sources should be added, sorry if I wasn't clear. My point is it's something to look into for better sources, if there are some, that could then be added. If the Russian police did in fact confirm Wagner presence, that could be addded. Chaotic Enby (talk) 15:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Neither Twitter "sources" are confirmed, and one was partially retracted- the latter did not specify which sources Presidentofyes12 (talk) 15:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Twitter is not a reliable source. WP:RSTWITTER. The nature of Wikipedia is we should be one of the slowest to report on things (because we are summarizing reliable secondary sources such as reputable WP:NEWSORGs), but also the most accurate. There is no rush. –Novem Linguae (talk) 15:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't think socportal.info is a reliable source. You can just scroll it's main page and see its bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordi2023 (talk • contribs) 16:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Only 200 men?

Why Russia is listed in infobox as having only 200 men in defense positions? Cactus Ronin (talk) 15:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

It is listed as such as that is the correct figure. Kremshin (talk) 15:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
@Kremshin Russian Armed Forces wikipedia page states there are 1,5 million active personnel and 2 million reserves, i dont think this army only having 200 men on lines is a plausible claim. i think there should be added "*(exact numbers unknown)*" text next to the confirmed information. Cactus Ronin (talk) 15:07, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Most of those 1.5 million are not combatants. Almost all combatants are in Ukraine or on other Russian borders. That means they aren't in defensive positions. I find the 200 number pretty plausible, honestly. Fieari (talk) 15:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Surely there are more than 200 men in the Moscow Police? Juxlos (talk) 16:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Because its the kaydrovs sent after them 2405:8D40:4898:253F:BC8E:B731:BFB3:28EF (talk) 15:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
@2405:8D40:4898:253F:BC8E:B731:BFB3:28EF What source confirms that only Kadyrovites are against the Wagner mutiny? Cactus Ronin (talk) 15:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
"~200 Kadyrovites", this is sourced NAADAAN (talk) 16:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
@NAADAAN emphasis on "only" Cactus Ronin (talk) 16:19, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
@Cactus Ronin This is an estimate from Meduza; would "200+" be a better way to write it? It seems like the rest of this conversation that were focusing more on the figure in complete disregard that this is only an estimate of how many Kadyrovites were deployed (nothing more, nothing less). If you have a sourced estimate for the MoD and National Guard forces deployed to handle the mutiny, you are free to add it. NAADAAN (talk) 16:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Only the number of Kadyrovites. May take some time until any sources are found about the number of members in the AFR and others participating in this. Deus vult fratres! (talk) 16:32, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Wouldn't then it be better to add in something along the lines of "Unknown number of other Russian armed personnel" until some actual numbers are found? 82.160.125.101 (talk) 17:27, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
It would, but the Kadyrovite numbers should be kept Deus vult fratres! (talk) 20:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (10)

Status : Wagner troops retreat to field camps Tutarvafis (talk) 18:54, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Stale; unsourced. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:38, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Edit request

So, obviously I cannot edit this page at this time. However, I believe Russia's push to place Wagner into its command structure should be noted in the prelude. It caused friction between Russia and Wagner. Feel free to use 

<ref>{{Cite news |last=Osborn |first=Andrew |date=13 June 2023 |title=Putin backs push for mercenary groups to sign contracts despite Wagner's refusal |language=en |work=[[Reuters]] |url=https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-backs-push-mercenary-groups-sign-contracts-despite-wagners-refusal-2023-06-13/ |url-status=live |access-date=24 June 2023 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20230622143644/https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-backs-push-mercenary-groups-sign-contracts-despite-wagners-refusal-2023-06-13/ |archive-date=22 June 2023}}</ref>

as a citation. To quote it, "Russian President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday he backed a Defence Ministry order for mercenary groups fighting in Ukraine to sign contracts with it before July 1, something the high-profile Wagner Group has pointedly refused to do. [...] Yevgeny Prigozhin, founder of Wagner and Russia's most powerful mercenary, has said his group will not sign a contract, citing what he regards as the inability of Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, someone whom Prigozhin has repeatedly vilified, to manage groups like his. [...] The new contract system would much more closely integrate Wagner and Prigozhin, regarded as a reckless but effective maverick by some government officials, into the Defence Ministry's command structure in a subordinate position. [...] That would make it harder for Prigozhin to build his own political and military influence, something he has spent months doing while receiving military hardware and ammunition from the army." Editoronthewiki (talk) 00:35, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Definitely, I was just thinking to add material about that myself. HappyWith (talk) 01:35, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
And, done. Thanks for the suggestion! HappyWith (talk) 01:40, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
Thank you @HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith! Happy to help. I think it hasn't been added to the Wagner page itself yet if you have a free moment as well if you are interested Editoronthewiki (talk) 20:05, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Factual error in chapter 'Resolution'

Chapter 'Resolution' refers to Prigozhin attempting to contact the administration on July 24th rather than June 24th. This needs to be corrected ASAP. CaliforniaChampagne (talk) 09:59, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Fixed. Ecrusized (talk) 10:02, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

June 26 not July 26th

Resolution article CracksInTheFloor (talk) 16:30, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

rinkevičš(Latvia) full tweet

"Latvia is closely following the developing situation in Russia and exchanging information with allies Border security has been strengthened, visa or border entry from Russians leaving Russia due to current events won’t be considered" LatviaRich (talk) 16:42, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Source? 🌶️Jalapeño🌶️ Don't click this link! 16:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
https://twitter.com/edgarsrinkevics/status/1672559389721391109 185.83.93.99 (talk) 21:12, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The Mushroom putsch?

Are there sources of these name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.25.177.133 (talk) 17:01, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

what? Scu ba (talk) 17:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Socportal

Currently, the infobox lists the 217th Guards Airborne Regiment as being on the side of PMC Wagner, as per a Socportal source. According to a Tweet, this happened over 2 hours ago. If this were true, it would be pretty difficult to cover up, so there should be other sources as well. There aren't. I have a suspicion Socportal is not a reliable source. Dieknon (talk) 16:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I feel like Socportal may not be very reliable either. We should follow WP:RS and WP:BRD. --IanDBeacon (talk) 16:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Why would socportal fail WP:RS? Scu ba (talk) 16:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Have you looked for Russian-language sources as well? Super Ψ Dro 16:41, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Follow-up: I've since removed the lines of text with the Socportal references, and now am requesting @Scu ba: and @Juxlos: to participate in this discussion. --IanDBeacon (talk) 16:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
That is exactly what Socportal is, a registered media company in Ukraine that publishes in Russian, Ukrainian English and German. I'm not sure why people are saying they fail WP:RS. they have proper legal standing as a media company, have reporters, a functioning editorial board, and all the other qualifiers to be a RS. Scu ba (talk) 16:51, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
@Scu ba This is a case where WP:EXCEPTIONAL applies. A regiment of the Russian armed forces defecting and joining Wagner would be a major development that you would expect to end up on every news site in existence, but the only place that this is mentioned is a Socportal piece? Looking at the Socportal website brings up several red flags to me, everything from the .info url to the fact they have 500 followers on twitter to the NGO that claims to own them having no internet presence all paint a picture of a small/amateur operation. This is a case where we should wait for major mainstream sources. 192.76.8.66 (talk) 17:05, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Could perhaps we have some input from the Arbitration Committee, perhaps some form of enforcement of WP:BRD in accordance WP:ARBEE? IanDBeacon (talk) 17:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Now that the situation is over and nobody else talked about the 217th, this was the right call. Socportal was just disseminating twitter and telegram feeds for geolocated videos and repeated statements from trusted actors to update the situation and then turning them into somewhat coherent articles. They where bound to have gotten something wrong eventually. Scu ba (talk) 21:24, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
I see the Socportal has been removed from the sources list. Could we perhaps fix the infobox too? The claim that the 217th Guards Airborne Regiment is on PMC Wagner's side is unsourced. Dieknon (talk) 16:46, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 Done IanDBeacon (talk) 16:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Could prigozhen be dead?

Seems likely, lukashenko announces it meanwhile he was so close to moscow As well as he has been silent, also he didn't mind shooting down helicopters, why would he suddenly care about "bloodshed" when he got thousands killed on both sides in Ukraine. Seems veey fishy to me. THEREALhistoryandgames (talk) 17:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

WP:NOTAFORUM. This page is for discussion on improving the encyclopedic value of the article, not for general discussion on the rebellion. PrecariousWorlds (talk) 17:57, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
i see, my apologies THEREALhistoryandgames (talk) 18:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
No worries, I made the same mistake too when I first started using Wikipedia. You can use this page to suggest anything you think will improve the quality of the article! PrecariousWorlds (talk) 18:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
Just. Say fog of war 110.226.182.42 (talk) 18:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Losses

Please add a loss of an antonov An-26 aircraft to the russian loss list. HankolainenHistorikko (talk) 09:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

President Zelenskyy's reaction on this mutiny

Add in section Reactions in sub-heading 1 International under inscription Ukraine ,,President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy posted on Telegram on 24 June 2023 ,,He terrorizes with rockets, and when they are shot down, he humiliates himself to give "Shaheda". He despises people and throws hundreds of thousands into the war - in order to eventually barricade himself in the Moscow Oblast from those whom he himself armed. For a long time, Russia used propaganda to mask its weakness and the stupidity of its government. And now there is so much chaos that no lie can hide it. And all this is one person, who again and again scares the year 1917, although he is not able to lead to anything else. Russia's weakness is obvious. Full-scale weakness..'' referring to the conflict between the recent allies of the Russian forces and the Wagner Group.[1]'' - Duosdebs01 (talk) 11:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Zelenskiy / Official". Telegram. Retrieved 2023-06-24.

Name Tally so far

  • Aljazeera: Mutiny/Rebellion
  • BBC: Mutiny/Rebellion
  • CNN: Mutiny/Rebellion
  • RT: Coup attempt
  • CGTN: Mutiny/Rebellion

Borgenland (talk) 11:40, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

BBC liveblog uses following header on 12:47 GMT: "Russian mercenaries seize military sites as Putin vows to punish rebellion", see: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-66006142
Flemish public VRT uses following header on 12:49 GMT:"Mercenary army Wagner occupies Russian city Rostov-on-Don en advances to Moscow, Putin states (rebellion or revolt) is a 'dagger in the back'", see: https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2023/06/24/liveblog-wagner/
Dutch public NOS uses the following header on 12:51 GMT: wines states Wagener Group has passed Voronez; Zelensky: this (rebellion or revolt) is Putin's own fault", see: https://nos.nl/liveblog/2480088-ooggetuige-wagner-groep-is-voronezj-voorbij-zelensky-deze-opstand-is-poetins-eigen-schuld Chesteroy (talk) 11:55, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Donetsk

Roads into Russian-controlled Donetsk blocked: Al Jazeera reporter

Al Jazeera’s Ali Hashem reporting from Russian-occupied Donetsk says the situation in the city is fluid.

“The Wagner Group marched into the city and took control of the central command centre and now we are hearing that they are besieging most of the government buildings there,” Hashem said.

“All roads to and from Donetsk are blocked and fighters from Wagner are on the streets of the city,” he said.

“There were some attempts by a few people to kind of protest but there was a crackdown on them.”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/6/24/russia-ukraine-live-news-russia-accuses-wagner-chief-of-mutiny

Tips for the Map. I'll mention this in the article once an article format of this story comes out. Borgenland (talk) 12:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

A Quick Matter About Terms

The leader of the Wagner Group has asserted that the entire force had organized itself as "the patriots" (Ru: патриоты) against the FSB and other authorities, labeling Putin and senior figures under the leader as "the bastards" (Ru: подонков). Or that's what I understand. I don't speak Russian. Is there anything about the commentary here that perhaps an English language reader might miss? CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 12:47, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Kadyrov’s army has arrived in Rostov

See here. Count Iblis (talk) 13:15, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Freedom of Russia Legion

Response of Freedom of Russia Legion: [11] BlackShadowG (talk) 14:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

RVC and Collaborators on Wagner's side

Add the Russian volunteer corps and army collaborators to the Wagner side. 2A02:3030:808:E225:1:0:C5CF:87A2 (talk) 14:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (6)

Add a map with more colours to indicate Ukrainian territory held by Russia. Tftz845 (talk) 14:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done This is an article about the Wagner Group rebellion, not the Russo-Ukrainian war. The map should only show the Wagner Group's territory in Russia, not the Russian occupation in Ukraine. 🌶️Jalapeño🌶️ Don't click this link! 14:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Best source for 'Putin made the wrong choice, soon Russia will have a new president' quote?

I'd really like to add Prigozhin's response to Putin's speech, namely, "Putin made the wrong choice, soon Russia will have a new president" as being very relevant to the article. It was posted on his official telegram, but that's a primary source. A number of secondary sources have ALSO reported on it, but I'm not sure which would be the best... I'd prefer one of the big world media companies like the BBC, but the secondary sources that have reported on this are... not good. Business Today, News 18, Newsweek, all blacklisted by wikipedia, for good reason. Anyone have a better secondary source? Or would this be a good place to just use the primary source? Or does the fact that BBC hasn't reported this quote really mean that it's not inclusion-worthy? Fieari (talk) 15:09, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Primary would be fine because its directly related to the event and its by one of the main participants, not some off tangent thing unrelated, although normally its nice to accompany such stuff with secondary sources. Tweedle (talk) 15:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Request of the following information to be added

1. The reaction of Finland regarding the subject; Petteri Orpo, the prime minister of Finland has been in contact with Kaja Kallas (PM of Estonia) and Krišjānis Kariņsi (PM of Latvia) in regards of the group rebellion. Finland is closely cooperating with Estonia and Latvia. Orpo's tweet

2. More info regarding the reaction of the chechens regarding the subject - the chechen leader also stated the following: “The [Wagner Group) rebellion must be crushed, and if this requires harsh measures, then we are ready!” [[12]]


NotAGenious (talk) 15:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

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