This is an archive of past discussions about Fried chicken. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
I think it has to do with regards to the other sublime Southern dish, Chicken Fried Steak, which is a variation on weinershnitzel developed by Germen immigrants to Texas. "Chicken Fried Chicken" would be chicken cooked similar to Chicken Fried Steak (ie. breaded and then pan-fried as opposed to deep-fried".
Convoluted
This version of the fried chicken probably supersedes the appearance of both its Scottish and American counterparts chronologically
Eh? Am I to take this to mean that it predates it?
Done. It should be noted that one of the benefits of creating a user name is the ability to edit pages that are semi-protected (like this one was). Cheers. --MZMcBride18:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Scots and Scottish
Sorry don't really know how to edit this, but should the line where it says "The Scots, and latter the Scottish" say the Scots-Irish and latter the Scottish, or are the Scots and and Scottish different people now?
Blanking recipe vandals
Quit removing the recipie.. If you have a better one I will try it..Untill then leave it. If some one wants to modify it fine but dont blank it or take all recipies off Wiki, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.17.100.65 (talk) 02:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Should this article really be under the category of "African-Americans" as well as the others, or is that vandalism? I understand that it's an African-American dish, but having it in the category of "Soul Food" and what not probably ought to cover that. Isn't having it under that category sort of racist? Is Watermelon under that category as well? I'm just sayin'...--Antodav2007 (talk) 08:02, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I think its dumb to even label it as a traditionally African-American dish. Who in America does not eat fried chicken? I mean, really... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.242.197.108 (talk) 16:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I've added an NPOV section about the stereotype - if anyone would like to add sources, you're welcome to, but I thought at minimum it needed to be noted. Cataloging the existence of stereotypes, and the reason for their existence, is as important as cataloging any other type of information. I've also pieced together many sections from revisions in the past year or three that were destroyed in previous edit wars, due to the topic's status as a racist stereotype. Feel free to rework them however you like, but try to add information rather than removing it.Lesqual (talk) 03:24, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Um....
Ok, I actually came to this page looking for info on: How did "fried chicken (and watermelon)" become a racial slur? Or, why would someone even be offended by this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.19.243 (talk) 18:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
It was another food used by racists to explain how different the 'black race' was from the rest of the human race. The logic was that they have different skin, they have different-shaped faces, they eat different foods, so it's justified to treat them like animals. In reality, these were simply some of the only food choices available to slaves in plantation life, and they developed over the generations into a general racial cuisine (later permeating into the rest of the South). The offensive aspect is not in the knowledge that many African-Americans like soul food, it's in the racist expectation that any black person should enjoy eating certain things and talk/act a certain way. While it's important not to allow trolls to vandalize the page with an embracement of this belief, it's also important to acknowledge it.Lesqual (talk) 03:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
Scottish Nonsense!
So this article suggests that fried chicken, as eaten in the southern United States, is the result of Scottish influence. That is a catgorically false assertion. Though it is true that fried foods and fried chicken inparticular existed before the American version, there is no evidence to support the claim that American fried chicken derived from Scottish cusine. It is generally accepted that, like southern barbecue, fried chicken as we know it today came out of the African-American culinary tradition. Once again another wikipedia article about something quintisentially American has been tainted with a UK bias. --216.39.232.190 (talk) 13:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
"Southern fried chicken
Chicken parts that are floured or battered and then fried in hot fat. The term southern fried' first appeared in print in 1925...Southerners were not the first people in the world to fry chickens, of course. Almost every country has its own version, from Vietnam's Ga Xao to Italy's pollo fritto and Austria's Weiner Backhendl, and numerous fricassees fill the cookbooks of Europe. And fried chicken did not become particularly popular in the northern United States until well into the nineteenth century...The Scottish, who enjoyed frying their chickens rather than boiling or baking them as the English did, may have brought the method with them when they settled the South. The efficient and simple cooking process was very well adapted to the plantation life of the southern African-American slaves, who were often allowed to raise their own chickens. The idea of making a sauce to go with fried chicken must have occurred early on, at least in Maryland, where such a match came to be known as "Maryland fried chicken." By 1878 a dish by this name was listed on the menu of the Grand Union hotel in Saratoga, New York..."
---The Encyclopedia of American Food and Drink, John F. Mariani [Lebhar-Friedman:New York] 1999 (p. 305-6)
[NOTE: this book has much more information than can be paraphrased here. Ask your librarian to help you find a copy]
"Seventeenth- and eighteenth-century descriptions of colonial foodways ignored the chicken for the most part. In the earliest manuscripts to enter America there are, of course, chicken recipes for roasts, stews, and pies, and none other than Governor William Byrd II was dining on the iconic southern dish of fried chicken at his Virginia plantation by 1709..." ---Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America, Andrew F. Smith editor [Oxford University Press:Oxford] 2004, Volume 1 (p. 226)
"Once again another wikipedia article about something quintisentially American has been tainted with a UK bias"
What are the other examples? There is surely cultural imperialism on both sides of the Atlantic; indeed, Wikipedia is more often than not accused of having an American-centric bias? And BTW the fact that a UK aspect may be present could be something to do with the Scots-Irish/Scots/English and Welsh settlers forming a major part of the original founding fathers of the US of A? Just a thought. 80.229.27.251 (talk) 14:43, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions about Fried chicken. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
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I rmved 3 categories, because the article is already in Soul food, which is a sub-cat of the 3 i removed. Being in the subcat automatically makes an article part of the parent cat.YobMod16:10, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
Hot chicken variant
Added a link to the Nashville-style hot chicken variant. The Southern Foodways Alliance (founded by John T. Edge, in fact) recognizes it as a unique regional specialty. Joelmoses 2000 (talk) 19:13, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I added {{fact}} to the infobox of the article which says that it came from US. Well, it is of conflict of interest with the article itself, especially that the article's history section that it came from ancient cultures of Rome, Greece, etc. So why claim that it originated from US? That's why a citation is needed.--JL 09q?c15:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Merger Problems
The problem with merging something like Korean fried chicken is that it's not true that they are cooked same way a "common fried chicken" is. eg, Korean fried chicken usually uses a smaller chicken than in America, cut into smaller pieces. In America, where it's harder to find these chickens, they use mostly wings. The chicken is twice fried, much like belgian frites, once to cook them through and render fat from the skin, and once again to crisp them. The coating/batter/breading is entirely different from Southern fried chicken. And Korean fried chicken often comes with a very Korean sauce or glaze.
Many cuisines have a version of fried chicken, that while similar in some ways to Southern fried chicken probably did not come from Southern fried chicken and is unique enough to deserve its own entry. eg, ayam goreng, Indonesian fried chicken, first stews the chicken in a curry, then fries it crisp. Thai fried chicken is much like Korean fried chicken except a sweet and very spicy sauce is applied to them. Saying that all fried chicken is the same is like saying that all chicken noodle soup is the same, when there are multiple American styles, pho ga, chicken ramen, etc.
There should be a general "Fried Chicken" entry and Southern fried chicken, along with other forms of fried chicken, should be enumerated and described underneath. Versions of fried chicken should get their own entry if enough information, history, etc, can be established. Extramsg (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.21.221.56 (talk) 05:11, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Both are entirely orphan, or few articles link into it.
It does not assert any significance to have its own article. For example, Both are cooked the way a common fried chicken does, except that they are originally made by Koreans and Cantonese people.
I propose that in this article, we will create a section or a subsection here that mentions the Cantonese and Korean versions of the food.
Cuisine dish articles should not be merged like so. It so happens the English and these other cuisine dishes all say "fried chicken". That doesn't mean they are the same or even close. Being orphaned or having few links does not qualify two subjects to the same either. Benjwong (talk) 06:44, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
The method of preparation and cooking for Cantonese crispy fried chicken is very different from that of batter coated American southern style fried chicken. Combining the categories risks creating a Western centric POV problem that is likely not merited. The entire family of Chinese poultry cuisine including Cantonese crispy fried chicken, Cantonese duck, Hainanese chicken, white chicken, Peking duck, and probably other popular recipes may be more closely interrelated to each other even though they are not all fried and as substantial a category as batter coated fried chicken. Lambanog (talk) 09:55, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Oppose per the two comments above me. They are entirely different, and would be akin to merging articles on Mac & PC, for example; they are both computers, but are very different. In this case, all articles are food, but are quite different. Airplanemantalk03:43, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Oppose as noted above. Korean Fried Chicken is a distinct dish, and has regional variations throughout S.Korea. I think the confusion has arisen because the Korean Fried Chicken is poorly written giving the impression that it is served/developed in the US by American-Koreans, and is a variation on American Fried Chicken. Which is wrong.
Annual Fried Chicken Eating World Championship
The section on the "Annual Fried Chicken Eating World Championship" is tagged for having no refs. I just did a Google search, an found nothing relevant except Wikipedia mirrors. Now for many topics this wouldn't mean anything, but an event of the sort described, held recently would IMO be unlikely to miss coverage in some web source or other -- I didn't even find a blog post about this. Also, 128 pieces an a minute sounds inherently improbable. I hereby challenge the accuracy of this section, and suggest it be removed if at least one source cannot be provided. DES(talk)03:42, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
Globalize
The present article has a quite generic name ("fried chicken"), but in spite of this generic name deals almost exclusively with fried chicken in the cuisine of the Southern United States. I see two options.
An option that is better in my eyes, but also more work, is to have a general true article Fried chicken with a section "Fried chicken in various cuisines", comparable to the article Chicken soup with its section "Chicken soup in different cultures". The present article should then be presented in condensed form in the newly written general article in a subsection such as "American South", with the present version article turned into the spinout article Southern fried chicken.
I'd actually far rather go for option #1. The differences in preparation and presentation across the dishes is extreme enough that they're not really the same subject. That said, there's no real need for a dab, just a hatnote to point at the East Asian options. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk11:14, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
Beyond the "techniques" section, some of the cultural analysis re: Coon Chicken Inn and Sambo's has some fairly bad grammar. "Acceptation" is one example.
I made some changes, but am not sure they cover all of the issues you spotted. But please note that you can immediately fix such minor problems yourself, instead of reporting them. --Lambiam13:30, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't see that. Apparently this article has been a magnet for racially motivated vandalism since 2005. Well, happy editing of unrestricted pages; just a few more edits, and you'll be autoconfirmed and able to edit semi-protected pages. --Lambiam01:59, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Milk, buttermilk, just flour
Looks like I'm too new(?) to edit this page. Early in the page is the sentence "To prepare the chicken pieces for frying, they may be marinated in buttermilk, or simply dipped in buttermilk or milk." It's implied that buttermilk or milk is always used, and I'd call this inaccurate - sometimes the chicken is only dusted in flour, sometimes it's battered without being pre-treated with buttermilk or milk.RamblingChicken (talk) 02:28, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
This article is a mess
The article name is a generic "fried chicken" but most of the article is about the American version of fried chicken (Southern fried chicken) with a huge "history" section for only that version. Then later it suddenly mentions America again under "global variants". As has been suggested above, this problem needs to be addressed. Fine suggestions have already been made above but not implemented fully. I will rearrange the whole article to comply more with its generic name if no one comes up with good reasons not to. - Takeaway (talk) 01:06, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
I read that this fried chicken recipe was first published in Nathan Bailey's 1736 cookbook, Dictionarium Domesticum, and it consisted of the juice of two lemons, malt vinegar, bay leaves and green onions as a marinade; and flour, white wine, three egg yolks, and salt as batter. The story is described in this link here, and you can watch the recipe get recreated in this video here. So do you think the 280-year-old recipe should be added to the article? --Angeldeb82 (talk) 22:05, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
Recent FAC nomination removed
I removed the FAC nomination for this page as it is quite far from the expected standard. There are many unsourced statements in the article, and some places only a single citation is placed at the end of a long paragraph. Many sources used here, I would question meeting the standards of WP:RS and definitely do not meet FA criterion 1c. For example, one of the highly contentious statements in the article ("The Scots had a tradition of deep frying chicken in fat, unlike their English counterparts who baked or boiled chicken. Scottish immigrants to America continued this frying chicken tradition and are responsible for the introduction of it to African slaves.") is sourced to an Enquirer article and a website of unknown reliability. Neither of those sources even supports the language you use in the article. Lots of work is needed here to create a cohesive narrative using high-quality sources that support statements made, etc. --Laser brain(talk)13:43, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
I noticed another online article in which an author conveyed an opinion that the idea fried chicken's being initially scottish is manipulative and racist...it's very strange that probably most people associate fried chicken with "Kentucky Fried Chicken" (with Colonel Sanders on the sign) and that's completely unmentioned- although the author has read through many sources about fast food....so that a "oh, SLAVE fried chicken" idea doesn't drift to the reader through the cracks :
Enslaved people recieved a chicken recipe from the Scottish and adapted it with traditional seasonings. True or False?
If someone deliberately 'misses' something when they're conveying their perspective, are there people who will ever come to notice that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.181.209.241 (talk) 17:39, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
This Wikipedia article describes fried chicken as parallel evolution in both Scotland and West Africa, with the results being combined in the American South (with no indication of how exactly each group got ahold of the other group's ideas). No racism is intended or even included. If the article you read mentions this article in particular, we might be able to mention it in the section on racial stereotypes (perhaps retitling it to "Fried chicken and race controversies").
Harlan Sanders was born 25 years after the Civil War was over and did not serving KFC until 60 years after the Civil War was over. It would be racist to pretend that only black people were eating and/or cooking fried chicken at that point, and downright trolling to suggest that Sanders had slaves. There were, however, white-owned racist-themed fried chicken joints at the time.
What separates fried chicken from other fried forms of chicken
"What separates fried chicken from other fried forms of chicken..." Oh come on. The type of chicken described in this article is southern fried chicken - just because some people refer to it as simply 'fried chicken' doesn't mean that 'other fried forms of chicken' as the article awkwardly puts it should not also be called 'fried chicken'. You wouldn't write "what separates football from other foot-based ball games" in an article about one particular code of football.Eggybacon (talk) 19:01, 15 December 2016 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 15 August 2017
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There is an error in the first paragraph under history.
"Scottish frying techniques and African seasoning techniques were (used?) in the American South by African slaves"
"However, it was the Scottish who were the first to deep fry their chicken." I doubt that. Fried chicken is also a specialitie of the viennese cuisine, called Backhendl (backed chicken), is known at leaste since the 18. century and is the "ancestor" of the Schnitzel. 80.109.30.91 (talk) 22:40, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Omni Flames. Lulu.com is a pay-to-print publisher, so Pyatt's "Other Side of the Skillet" fails WP:RS. It is clearly a paraphrase of the text in this article. The Daily Meal article likewise post-dates the addition of the claim to this article, which is a concern pop-news sites often do grab their information from us these days. Sumnu and Sahin's "Advances in Deep-Fat Frying of Foods" is an RS, is from an academic publisher, and is sufficiently old enough that it works. The other two do not, however. Even then, Sumnu and Sahin describe fried chicken as an American Southern dish based on earlier Scottish and African techniques.
There's also still the problem that the sources saying that the Scottish-Americans introduced it to the slaves doesn't actually support that at all (see "Scottish, West African, or a mixture?" a couple of sections above). Ian.thomson (talk) 10:27, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
I've rewritten the lede and the first paragraph of the History section. I removed the sources that failed WP:RS as well as non-academic (but otherwise reliable) sources (except those which explicitly cite academic sources), added quotes to all the citations (I think), added a new source, and wrote it from scratch by summarizing the citations (organizing them by their overlapping points). That addresses this immediate issue, though the rest of the History section cites other problematic sources. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:55, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
People fried chicken all over the Old World for at least 2000 years. The "Scottish" vs. "West African" thing is purely related to, how did the recipe first called "fried chicken" in the United States in the 19th century develop.
No amount of references about Scotland or West Africa is going to resolve this question. Let's accept as a given that the Scots and West Africans both fried chickens for centuries, just like everyone else. No need to pile up more references to the effect. What you are actually looking for are references on how the thing became popular in 19th-century America. --dab(𒁳)06:13, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
description
the description states 'It has even been reported that some of those who enjoy eating the food limit themselves to eating it only a certain number of times a year, to keep their fat intake reasonably low'. This comment sounds like its meant to be very shocking or notewworthy, however surely its common sense that people naturally try to limit their intake of high calorific/oily food? its a bit like saying 'due to ice cream having a high calorie content it has even been reported that some people do not eat it at every meal time'. Surely its a given? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.96.14.189 (talk • contribs) 16:14, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
Split proposal
Small consensus to split out Southern fried chicken. It is up to @Buuz and Aoinne: to do conduct the split. Be aware that this is currently a Good Article, so any split should maintain the quality of this article. GA status is not inherited though. AIRcorn(talk)03:40, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I propose that Fried chicken be split into Fried chicken and Southern fried chicken, as most of the content except the paragraphs under "Global variants" section is about fried chicken in the cuisine of the Southern United States. The hatnote ("This article is about fried chicken in the cuisine of the Southern United States. For fried chicken in the Cantonese cuisine of Southern China and Hong Kong, see crispy fried chicken. For fried chicken prepared Korea-style, see Korean fried chicken.") is also quite long. --Buuz (talk) 04:17, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
IP comment
The statement "this was commercialized for the first half of the 20th century by restaurants like Sambo's and Coon Chicken Inn, which selected exaggerated blacks as mascots, implying quality by their association with the stereotype." This sentence is grossly inaccurate. Sambo's restaurants were not founded until 1957, the second half of the 20th century. Moreover, Sambo's did not emphasize fried chicken or other African American foods per se, but was modeled more along the lines of a Denny's or Internationla House of Pancakes. It is also grossly inaccurate to suggest that Sambo's selected an exaggerated black mascot. It selected a popular character from a well known children's story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.35.49.35 (talk • contribs) Catgut (talk) 22:20, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree. I used to go to a Sambo's restaurant several times a week and I don't remember ever seeing anyone eating fried chicken there. If they had it on the the menu at all (I don't remember it on the menu), you can bet that it wasn't even breaded at the restaurant. At best, it would be thawed out and dropped in a deep fryer. I would never associate fried chicken with Sambo's. 2001:1890:1263:AFF:183F:D28F:14:3BA2 (talk) 07:27, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
I'd never heard of the Coon Chicken Inn mentioned alongside Sambo's. I checked the link and it turns out that it was only ever open in three cities: Salt Lake City, Utah; Lake City, Seattle, Washington; and the Hollywood District of Portland, Oregon. The article mentions four locations, but it also says that the fourth was announced, but was never opened. So why is this place worthy of being listed along with Sambo's, which didn't even exist in the first half of the 20th century, deserve special mention as having been at the forefront of commercializing fried chicken? 65.68.190.91 (talk) 20:59, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
Oils
The article fails to mention one of the very best oils for cooking fried chicken -- vegetable shortening. Many excellent cooks known for their fried chicken won't even use anything else but vegetable shortening. 2001:1890:1263:AFF:183F:D28F:14:3BA2 (talk) 07:34, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
It's cooked in an oven, not in an oilbath. Just read the souce or google it. By definition it isn't deep-fried and has nothing to do with deep-fried chicken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jurtenland (talk • contribs) 14:44, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
Fried Chicken is a generic term.Should include variants outside the US
Since the term fried chicken is a generic term to refer to any form of chicken that is cooked by frying in oil,it seems illogical to mention that the term fried chicken should be reserved for american versions only.Wikipedia is a international platform that is used by people across the world.Should the need arise,I suggest that this article be renamed as "American Fried Chicken" and dedicate the term Fried chicken to a more broader aspect.Thank you.;) --Hari147 (talk) 10:54, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
Indonesian
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In resource section on Reference #31 Fried Chicken recipe has been linked to AllRecipes page which is non-functional. I found a similar recipe on a website named BetterButter and the link is also functional.
Not done. The link in reference 31 works fine. There is no need for replacement, especially with a poor-quality link as suggested. (Not that a user-submitted recipe on allrecipies is a good source, anyway). oknazevad (talk) 11:12, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
Historical origins of fried chicken
The Townsends channel on YouTube has done some fantastic research and reproduced a fried chicken recipe from an English cookbook called the Dictionarium Domesticum dating from 1736. While it's not termed "fried chicken" (instead being termed a "marinade"), there's no question when you see the results of Townsend's cooking that it is true fried chicken.
I didn't want to even try to edit the article because I see it's had some drama over the years, but I'm providing this for those who may want to adjust the article (since Townsends did the research on the primary source to provide a useful citation). 73.231.143.107 (talk) 08:50, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
As much as I enjoy the Townsends channel, that video (which I've already seen) really only reliable to demonstrate that the recipe is fried chicken and that's it. It does not establish what role that recipe has in history, which is what would be needed for it to be added to the article. (Well, there's also the issue that Townsends is technically self published and technically no more an authority than any random person on the street).
In fact, he mentions that it's pretty different from fried chicken today. The seasoning in particular is radically different from modern (i.e. "Southern style") fried chicken, which was (to oversimplify) a marriage of British techniques and West African seasoning. Ian.thomson (talk) 14:29, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2020
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Please remove racial discrimination and talk about fried chicken. It's not racist to have fried chicken. This is not about race it's about the history of a food. 67.77.87.43 (talk) 01:40, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}}
Someone needs to remove this paragraph from the "History" section:
Fried chicken originated from ancient Tibet in 2002. It was invented when a rather large African American man named Tyrone Blackson accidentally dropped his uncooked chicken in the dirt. Picking it up, he quoted "Oh Dayum, Nigger. This Chikn' be lookin' faaaahn'. I be smellin' mahh' Chikkin' ohhhhhh. Dis Chikkin' be tastin' daaaayum' faahn' wit' dem' dose' crumbs on it and den' be putted' in the hot oil. Awww' sheeet', awwww dayum'. Watermelon." With this, the new notion of delicious delicacy today known as Fried Chicken was brought into existance. Thanks to Tyrone Blackson who now works as a waterchicken (watermelon-chicken) cross breader.
The section under "Racial Stereotype" contains inaccurate information. It is stated that a KFC changed its name to Obama Fried Chicken. However (and the citations in this sections comfirm this), it was not a KFC but an independent chicken shop that created a sign that featured KFC insignia and coloring, along with the letters "OFC" and a Colonel Sanders-like silhouette of Barack Obama. The name "Obama" was not written anywhere on the sign, and after complaints they changed their name to "UFO" while maintaining the silhouette of Obama Paulsomething1 (talk) 02:48, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 4 October 2020
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Fried Chicken may also have its origin in English Cuisine. The book Albions Seed by David Hackett Fischer, states that the tradition of Frying Meats in the South comes from the Southern and Western regions of England. Unlike other regions of England, which preferred boiling and baking meats, the South and West of England preferred Frying and Roasting meats. [1]
The above passage or a variant of it is what I would like to be added to the article. This information may or may not be true. However, I feel like it is only accurate for Wikipedia to represent information from all scholarly sources.2601:5C4:4300:4A00:C99B:4933:2F95:82E2 (talk) 06:17, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
Not done It's unclear what changes you want to see made. Edit requests are supposed to specifically illustrate how you would like the text to be changed. oknazevad (talk) 23:17, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
This edit request to Fried chicken has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Please reread the request before saying it is unclear because it is different from its original form.
Fried Chicken may also have its origins in English Cuisine. The book Albions Seed by David Hackett Fischer, states that the tradition of Frying Meats in the South comes from the Southern and Western regions of England. Unlike other regions of England, which preferred boiling and baking meats, the South and West of England preferred Frying and Roasting meats.[1]
I do not wish to change or remove anything from this article. I want to add to it. The above passage that is highlighted in bold or a variant of this passage is what I would like to be added to the article. This information may or may not be true. However, I feel like it is only accurate for Wikipedia to represent information from all scholarly sources.2601:5C4:4300:4A00:9C06:D008:616B:51B5 (talk) 20:23, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
Instead of overwriting the old request, you should have made a new one. I've restored the old one for record keeping purposes. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:38, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
Now that the request is clearer, I'm still going with Not done for now as the reference is inadequately complete to verify the addition. What's the ISBN for the book? That would help aid in the appropriateness of the addition, both in verifying the content and evaluating whether it is a reliable source. oknazevad (talk) 22:59, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
Not done. You need to read it more carefully. This specific form of fried chicken originated in the southern US, drawing in both Scotch-Irish and African traditions. oknazevad (talk) 02:44, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 26 September 2021
This edit request to Fried chicken has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
Ok, since I reverted the moves, I'll open discussion.
The reason I reverted the rescoping is two-fold. First, because it amounted to an improper copy-and-paste move, which is plainly not allowed. If this article, which is specifically about the form of fried chicken that originated in the southern US, is to be moved to "southern fried chicken", then that needs to be handled via a requested move, otherwise it becomes an attribution issue. Since all the edits that created the current article are in this edit history, then that edit history needs to be preserved in whole, not spilt across two articles by a cut-and-paste even if the "copied" template is used or links exist in the edit summary.
Secondly, because the discussion above used as the rationale is over four years old, and the proposer never made any moves to compete the split themselves. In the years since this article has become more focused and specific about the southern US fried chicken, meaning that any such action is not actually a split anymore, but the aforementioned move, so the discussion and conclusion above is no longer valid at all, meaning it's inappropriate to use it as the rationale. A new discussion needs to occur, because the mishandling of attribution is a license violation. So here is that discussion.
Now, as for the question of whether to move this article to Southern fried chicken, I actually agree it should be moved. There are a lot of versions of fried chicken in many cultural cuisines around the world, only some of which have any connection to southern fried chicken. To have it at the broader name is a case of systematic bias, and needs to be rectified. The idea then of using the broader name for a set index article listing many of those worldwide varieties is a sound one as well. But doing such needs to be done properly, and links also need to be fixed to make sure they point to the right article afterwards, which is not a small task. There's also the issue of the British chain that is currently disambiguate only by capitals, which is weak disambiguation at best. So it's a significant project to handle, but ultimately I think the idea is sound. Just was done presumptively and incorrectly. oknazevad (talk) 15:56, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
I had attempted to repair the attribution without looking closely, and didn't realize that basically the entirety of this article had been cut-and-pasted to the other, so thanks for catching that. (I initially thought that part of the article had been split out.) I agree that a requested move would be the appropriate approach here, if it is to be moved. I haven't looked at the content part of it, so no opinion on the move itself. DanCherek (talk) 16:50, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
Requested move 5 October 2021
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The "southern" in the proposed name is to contrast it with and disambiguate it from other forms of fried chicken from entirely separate cuisines that have no connection to the US-originating dish, such as many of the Asian forms of fried chicken, though not all of them; Korean and Taiwanese varieties that arose in the post-World War II period were influenced by Americans, but types from the Malay peninsula and nearby areas have been around for centuries. A set index article at the general term to list such varieties makes sense to me. But threatening to do it even if there's no consensus doesn't fly. oknazevad (talk) 01:59, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Comment The split has to occur one way or the other. Moving this article to Southern fried chicken and splitting Fried chicken from that is what I'd done had this article not been move-protected. However, If the move does not happen, I'll split the article by procedure (copy and paste) again. --Scudsvlad (talk) 23:24, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
And I'll promptly revert it again and take you to ANI for failing to respect consensus. Don't try to short circuit actual discussion by threatening to make illegitimate moves anyway. oknazevad (talk) 01:10, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
I'd argue that that's one of those historical trivia factoids that is misplaced in the article and doesn't belong there, like those annoying background factoids one finds at online recipe sites where they give a bunch of useless things before they get to the actual subject. That this article is specifically about the one variety is covered even earlier by the lead and the hatnote and readily apparent from reading the whole thing. oknazevad (talk) 01:59, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Comment. I was going to support, because the undisambiguted term "fried chicken" is too broad to be limited to one variety, but I am intentionally withholding my support because of the threat above. I think a closing admin needs to trout the proposer. oknazevad (talk) 01:12, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Oppose a move and oppose a split per WP:SLFP and comments above. In addition, a move would create a new problem because the text currently covers both traditional Southern-style chicken and fast food Kentucky-style (see here for more details on the difference), variants that are quite similar with similar origins that would be difficult to disentangle and split up. The only other types mentioned here are Korean fried chicken, a derivative of the Kentucky style, and the Cantonese batterless version. Hatnotes work just fine; leave it alone. — AjaxSmack01:57, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, a Quora thread is not a reliable source regarding any topic, and that's just yet another rant about how home cooking/mom-and-pop shops are better than chains. Doesn't change that KFC's chicken is well within the parameters of southern fried chicken, as are Popeye's, Church's, or any other chain. It's not a distinct style. Plus the question in the linked thread is based on an incorrect assumption; northerners only say "KFC" when talking about that chain specifically. oknazevad (talk) 14:08, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Looks good. Only thing I'm skeptical about here is the "Kentucky-style" thing in the lead here. It's not a common alternate name unless talking about KFC, and the source is one (British) celebrity chef's website. I think it's a bit UNDUE, and doesn't need to be in the lead. oknazevad (talk) 13:26, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
American centric joke is this article
this article started as a page about any chicken that's fried. somehow the generic term was hijacked to show only one specific kind. yet such a strange thing could be considered a "good" article for years. a joke on par with Donna Strickland scandal. RZuo (talk) 13:33, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
@Lorrainx: you need to discuss your attempted changes on the talk page and try to get a consensus. Your edits removed a lot of reliably sourced material, and improperly cited two sources that might be reliable for other things but are not academic sources with a focus on culinary history.
I added a good chunk of material a while back about West African origins as well, but that doesn't mean that Scots didn't have their own version. However, I do agree that the article does seem to go particularly heavy on a Scottish origin when there are five reliable sources that explicitly refer to it as West African.
The sources for the claim that the Scots introduced it to the slaves are:
Food timeline, which is questionable, but I assume it is really that site's citation of "The Encyclopedia of American Food and Drink" that is really being cited here.
Neither of those sources say that the Scots introduced the dish to the slaves, just to America. The second source says that the slaves adapted to the Scots' fried chicken quite well, but it doesn't say that they didn't have their own traditions before. And those sources are countered by several academic sources saying that the dish has West African origins. As with bluegrass and a lot of other Southern culture, this appears to be the result of parallel evolution and convergence. While that last statement by me is WP:OR, it is undeniable that we are giving WP:UNDUE weight to the Scottish origin. Ian.thomson (talk) 00:05, 27 June 2016 (UTC)
How is the Eurocentric narrative is being talked about first if the 2nd paragraph talks about ‘Meanwhile, many West African peoples had traditions of seasoned fried chicken (though battering and cooking the chicken in palm oil). ’
This article uses a more broad topic for the item mentioned in the article
The article for fried chicken on wikipedia mentions a specific type of fried chicken when there are multiple types of fried chicken such as Korean Fried chicken. I believe this article should be either be moved to southern fried chicken and make this article a disambiguation or a more general topic NotOrrio (talk) 08:20, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
Requested move 19 November 2022
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Fried chicken → Southern Fried Chicken – Proposal to move the article fried chickent to southern fried chicken as the term fried chicken is too broad considering this article only mentions a specific type of fried chicken. While I do believe the article (list of fried chicken dishes) has gone some way to ressolving this problem there isn't anything other than a list stating fried chicken in general. I suggest moving the article to Southern Fried Chicken and replacing this page an article for fried chicken in general NotOrrio (talk) 08:45, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
Oppose malformed request. It's not a proper noun. Even then, the "corrected" version (still malformed) is exactly what was rejected a year ago. oknazevad (talk) 16:03, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
Oppose. This move would cause even more problems than it's trying to solve. As someone who was born in the South and has lived here all my life, the term "Southern fried chicken" is often used here to refer specifically to chicken which is pan fried (partially submerged in oil) as opposed to deep fried (completely submerged in oil). Rreagan007 (talk) 17:19, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2022
This edit request to Fried chicken has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.
The origin of fried chicken is Scottish, only later was it adapted into “southern American” fried chicken. Please correct the origins to Scotland. 71.38.7.31 (talk) 01:50, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Although I am proud of Scottish influence on fried chicken, I think the article should reflect that west Africa also developed their own fried chicken tradition instead of simply modifying that of the Scottish settlers.
I believe these sources are sufficient in quality and number to alter the article, and will insist on at least as much effort specifically countering the African influence (not just demonstrating a Scottish influence) before these sources are removed from the article. There's no reason not to acknowledge that West Africa is just as much a parent of fried chicken as Scotland. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:39, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
I have read that frying in fat may have orginated in ancient Egypt. I have read about west Africans frying in palm oil; ok. But breading/battering then frying. What is that origin? I don't know about the authors referenced in those links. What are their sources? Mendes cookbook? I basically am looking for those core facts instead of possible "alt" history myths. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avalon321 (talk • contribs) 04:06, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Chickens are not indigenous to Africa. Presumably they have been present there for a rather long time, but were they common in West Africa 500 years ago? Or was this an adaptation of a technique originally used for other more common analogous poultry? (Guineafowl?)
West Africans have their own fried chicken. However, it is completely different from present day fried chicken. The present day fried chicken entirely originated from Scotland. The present day recipe is not differentfrom the oldest recorded Scottish recipe. The breading and bartering originates from Scotland. Rhajamomi (talk) 22:48, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
Falsified history
Scottish fried chicken did in fact have “seasoning”. The same used in American fried chicken just with a thin layer of batter. Blatant stereotype. West African spices were not used in American fried chicken. Another racial stereotype. Seems like a social justice warrior rewrote the definition to fit American stereotypes. 2600:387:A:15:0:0:0:4B (talk) 19:10, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
The books by Hannah Glasse and Nathan Bailey both have recipes seasoning chicken. The recipe by Nathan Bailey in particular describes a process not wholly dissimilar from making fried chicken today even if the seasoning is of a more bygone palate.
Page 78 of Glasse's The Art of Cookery referred to as "Scotch Chicken"
The "Scotch chicken", which is on page 77, not 78, is for boiled chicken, not fried. It's more chicken soup than anything to do with this dish. The second book has fricassee, and some other stewed chicken dishes, but still no fried chicken. Neither disprove the sourced content that the seasoning typically used in modern southern fried chicken developed the southern US by adding spices used in other southern dishes to previous, more basic battered fried chicken. No one said no chicken dishes were ever seasoned. Those books are irrelevant, as they don't mention this dish at all. oknazevad (talk) 00:58, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
My mistake. It wasn't the Scotch chicken recipe but the recipe on page 78 titled "to Marinate Chickens". The books aren't irrelevant but my referencing of the Scotch Chickens entry was. Both books refer to a process of marinating, battering and frying chicken. Bdgibs (talk) 23:21, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
Hannah Glasse and N Bailey
Why are neither Hannah Glasse nor N Bailey mentioned? Both published fried chicken recipes in the 1700s.
Another 1736 English cookbook by Bailey https://books.google.com/books?id=5M6KnQEACAAJ&pg=PT393#v=onepage&q&f=false (Google is not showing the page #, but it's searchable as "Marinade of Chickens") where quartered chicken is marinated in lemon, verjuice, vinegar, clove, salt, pepper, bay leaf, and spring onions. It's then dredged in flour, eggs, and wine, and then fried in lard.
Both of these recipes beat the 1860s/1870s references discussed in this article by a full century. This is not original research either, as it's covered with https://firstwefeast.com/features/2016/04/fried-chicken-illustrated-history by James Beard award winner Adrian Miller, and he credits Glasse as publishing the first known recorded recipe of modern American fried chicken in 1747.
Further, the points in this article alleging (paraphrased) "Scottish/British/American fried chicken was unseasoned until it was merged with west African recipes" are just plainly false. Nutmeg, mace, bay leaf, parsley, pepper, and especially salt, are most certainly seasoning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.189.41.26 (talk) 18:46, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
Fried chicken is purely of Scottish origin. The claim that the Scottish people did not season their chicken is entirely false and are just perpetuating racial stereotypes as recipes from the 1700s prove otherwise. These recipes indicate that the Scottish indeed seasoned it with like bay, Cloves, Nutmeg, Parsley as well as wine. They also had a batter consisting of eggs, wine and flour. West Africans on the other hand did not put flour in their chicken. They simply fried it plain much like other world cultures. It is only the Scottish who used a flour barter and the current recipes clearly get their inspiration from the traditional recorded Scottish recipe. Rhajamomi (talk) 22:42, 23 December 2022 (UTC)
Indeed, this article cites a British cookbook that describes fried chicken with the seasonings that Rhajamomi lists. The first source listed is a food engineering textbook, written by two food engineers, and does not make any reference to qualified subject matter experts, or give any indication as to where it got the idea that Scottish fried chicken was unseasoned. The say so of two food engineers is a credible source for topics related to food engineering, but not culinary history. The second source listed does not say that Scottish fried chicken wasn't seasoned.
Also, oknazevad, your tone is combative and inappropriate. What Rhajamomi wrote is accurate, and supported by credible sources. More importantly, it represents a good faith attempt to improve the article, which deserves respectful engagement, not the tone above.
it makes sense to think west africans wouldnt use flour. wheat is hardly grown anywhere in subsaharan africa even in modern times, not to mention centuries ago. it's got to be a luxury to use flour back then. RZuo (talk) 14:54, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
"Seasoning"
It's probably worth a discussion as to what is meant by Scottish chicken lacking seasoning entirely. My sense is this relies on a vague sense of "seasoning = (quote-unquote) ethnic spices", which seems to be raised by others on this talk page as well. If seasoning is supplementing food via herbs, spices, salts, and/or sugar, intended to enhance a particular flavour, it is a bit hard to imagine the Scottish never seasoning fried chicken. Pretty much everything is seasoned in that sense. Others with more insight into cooking and terminology may be helpful here. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 21:24, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
This BBC article notes a recipe "all too familiar to today’s Southern US cooks" and that is most definitely seasoned (bay leaf, cloves, nutmeg, parsley). In light of that I think the wording of the article needs to be changed substantially. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 01:55, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
Looks like it was removed, thanks everyone. The dubious claim that Scots did not use seasoning on their fried chicken seems to be part of a disturbing trend of stereotyping white people as being hostile to flavorful food, usually by some claimed deficiency of character. The flip side of this coin is orientalist stereotyping of people in areas colonized by Europeans as being exotic, replete with flavor and spice. To resist racist cliches, we should be careful with claims that fit the stereotypes too conveniently, holding them to high standards of sourcing. Acone (talk) 20:54, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
Done. It should be noted that one of the benefits of creating a user name is the ability to edit pages that are semi-protected (like this one was). Cheers. --MZMcBride 18:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Not done It's not "holiday" specific, per se. — Andy W. (talk · contrib) 04:52, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
Done one, as far as I can tell there are no links to "Southern fried chicken" from this page. Omni Flames let's talk about it 12:10, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
Not done: There is no link to Indonesian in the article. NiciVampireHeart 15:20, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
Already done : Another user has already reverted the vandalism. Reaper Eternal (talk) 11:49, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
™ —¿philoserf? (talk) 00:05, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
