Talk:Fried chicken

Hannah Glasse and N Bailey

Why are neither Hannah Glasse nor N Bailey mentioned? Both published fried chicken recipes in the 1700s.

Hannah Glass in 1747 published this https://books.google.com/books?id=BJY58UqSEMUC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false (page 60) and references chicken dredged in a batter of eggs and breadcrumbs, seasoned with nutmeg and mace, and then fried in butter until golden brown. Then it's served with gravy.

Glasse then https://books.google.com/books?id=xJdAAAAAIAAJ&q=chicken#v=snippet&q=%22marinate%20chicken%22&f=false is another edition of the same book, and page 78 references quartered chicken, marinated in vinegar, pepper, bay leaf, and salt. It's then dredged in a batter of flour, eggs, wine, butter, nutmeg, and parsley. Then it's fried in pig fat until golden brown and served with gravy.

Another 1736 English cookbook by Bailey https://books.google.com/books?id=5M6KnQEACAAJ&pg=PT393#v=onepage&q&f=false (Google is not showing the page #, but it's searchable as "Marinade of Chickens") where quartered chicken is marinated in lemon, verjuice, vinegar, clove, salt, pepper, bay leaf, and spring onions. It's then dredged in flour, eggs, and wine, and then fried in lard.

Both of these recipes beat the 1860s/1870s references discussed in this article by a full century. This is not original research either, as it's covered with https://firstwefeast.com/features/2016/04/fried-chicken-illustrated-history by James Beard award winner Adrian Miller, and he credits Glasse as publishing the first known recorded recipe of modern American fried chicken in 1747.

Further, the points in this article alleging (paraphrased) "Scottish/British/American fried chicken was unseasoned until it was merged with west African recipes" are just plainly false. Nutmeg, mace, bay leaf, parsley, pepper, and especially salt, are most certainly seasoning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.189.41.26 (talk) 18:46, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Here is another source for Nathan Bailey's Dictionarium domesticum published in 1736. The recipe starts on page 410 if you're using the website's page counter. It seems this wiki article is citing biased sources. https://archive.org/details/b30505513/page/n409/mode/2up 2600:8803:5B05:C900:9896:D402:26CD:2FCE (talk) 17:57, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Page is full of false information

Fried chicken is purely of Scottish origin. The claim that the Scottish people did not season their chicken is entirely false and are just perpetuating racial stereotypes as recipes from the 1700s prove otherwise. These recipes indicate that the Scottish indeed seasoned it with like bay, Cloves, Nutmeg, Parsley as well as wine. They also had a batter consisting of eggs, wine and flour. West Africans on the other hand did not put flour in their chicken. They simply fried it plain much like other world cultures. It is only the Scottish who used a flour barter and the current recipes clearly get their inspiration from the traditional recorded Scottish recipe. Rhajamomi (talk) 22:42, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Do you actually have proof for your assertions that completely contradict the reliably sourced material in the article? oknazevad (talk) 19:21, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, this article cites a British cookbook that describes fried chicken with the seasonings that Rhajamomi lists. The first source listed is a food engineering textbook, written by two food engineers, and does not make any reference to qualified subject matter experts, or give any indication as to where it got the idea that Scottish fried chicken was unseasoned. The say so of two food engineers is a credible source for topics related to food engineering, but not culinary history. The second source listed does not say that Scottish fried chicken wasn't seasoned.

Also, oknazevad, your tone is combative and inappropriate. What Rhajamomi wrote is accurate, and supported by credible sources. More importantly, it represents a good faith attempt to improve the article, which deserves respectful engagement, not the tone above.

Acone (talk) 23:52, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

Wheat yield

it makes sense to think west africans wouldnt use flour. wheat is hardly grown anywhere in subsaharan africa even in modern times, not to mention centuries ago. it's got to be a luxury to use flour back then. RZuo (talk) 14:54, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

"Seasoning"

It's probably worth a discussion as to what is meant by Scottish chicken lacking seasoning entirely. My sense is this relies on a vague sense of "seasoning = (quote-unquote) ethnic spices", which seems to be raised by others on this talk page as well. If seasoning is supplementing food via herbs, spices, salts, and/or sugar, intended to enhance a particular flavour, it is a bit hard to imagine the Scottish never seasoning fried chicken. Pretty much everything is seasoned in that sense. Others with more insight into cooking and terminology may be helpful here. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 21:24, 20 March 2023 (UTC)

This BBC article notes a recipe "all too familiar to today’s Southern US cooks" and that is most definitely seasoned (bay leaf, cloves, nutmeg, parsley). In light of that I think the wording of the article needs to be changed substantially. WhinyTheYounger (WtY)(talk, contribs) 01:55, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Go for it. —Ganesha811 (talk) 19:13, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

looks like the"no seasoning" comment is unnecessary and should be removed 2607:FEA8:28A2:D700:21A7:2D09:B44A:6F76 (talk) 05:21, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Looks like it was removed, thanks everyone. The dubious claim that Scots did not use seasoning on their fried chicken seems to be part of a disturbing trend of stereotyping white people as being hostile to flavorful food, usually by some claimed deficiency of character. The flip side of this coin is orientalist stereotyping of people in areas colonized by Europeans as being exotic, replete with flavor and spice. To resist racist cliches, we should be careful with claims that fit the stereotypes too conveniently, holding them to high standards of sourcing. Acone (talk) 20:54, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Page name change request

• What I think should be changed the title of the page should be changed from fried chicken to southern fried chicken
• Why it should be changed: the origin page is USA and fried chicken originally came from Scotland. Another editor will not allow added origins as they insist the page is just to do with southern fried chicken.
• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Sharnadd (talk) 14:50, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

References

 Not done to request a page rename see the process at Wikipedia:Requested moves. — xaosflux ^Talk 14:58, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Battering vs breading

The first paragraph of this article confuses battering with breading. It rightly describes fried chicken as usually being battered in a coating of egg milk and flour. But then later it refers to that coating as a breading. Breading is a different three step process. First, the chicken is coated in flour. Then it’s dipped in an eggwash. All of this is seasoned. Then the egg washed chicken is dipped (dredged?) into a breading of things like Panko or cornmeal or anything else that would crackle out when in a deep fat fryer but still cling to the chicken in the oil. If battering is described then any breading reference should be changed to battering. Documikey (talk) 01:00, 19 September 2024 (UTC)