Talk:2023 Wagner Group plane crash/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2023

Minor change - in text, after in-text citation 7 and the line pertaining to the "Grey Zone" claim:

A video that supposedly shows the plane plunging from the sky has been circulating on social media. Ghostlynewspaper4488 (talk) 18:45, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

i already edited the article with the video Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 18:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! Ghostlynewspaper4488 (talk) 18:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Contested deletion

The article was repeatedly tagged for speedy deletion by a vandal, who has since been blocked, and will not actually be deleted.

This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because there are many sources and information about it and we will try to add the latest details on this page. --RVBILLIS-99 (talk) 18:36, 23 August 2023 (UTC) EDIT: Will try to archive the references via Internet Archive... ...wish me luck. This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... this is a potentially historically significant event due to the deaths of Prigozhin and Utkin, pertaining to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, as well as the June 2023 Wagner uprising in Russia. More information will likely be divulged over time, and the page will likely continue to be fleshed out until then. --Ghostlynewspaper4488 (talk) 18:37, 23 August 2023 (UTC) This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because it is an important event in geopolitics — Preceding unsigned comment added by Webblittt (talk • contribs) 18:39, 23 August 2023 (UTC) This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... it is talking about an event that a lot of credible claims (BBC, CNN, Sky News) are talking about. I have read the Speedy Deletion Criteria and I don't see one that this article is violating. --Maksiwood 2 (talk) 18:39, 23 August 2023 (UTC) Clearly not a serious proposal. The IP responsible for the speedy deletion tagging has also vandalised the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:39, 23 August 2023 (UTC) The only criteria that I believe it comes close to violating is A7 which does not apply to the article as stated by the 11 note. Maksiwood 2 (talk) 18:43, 23 August 2023 (UTC) This article should NOT be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because it concerns a confirmed aviation incident or accident. The relative rarity of such events supports the existence of articles about them. There is precedent for articles about comparable events (i.e. comparable in the number of casualties and the fact that the involved aircraft took catastrophic damage). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Exhaustedyak (talk • contribs) 18:41, 23 August 2023 (UTC) Per above Parham wiki (talk) 18:44, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 August 2023

Change:

• "and well as" to "and"
• "Channel One. . At" to "Channel One. At"
• "where seen" to "were seen" 93.72.49.123 (talk) 10:46, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done Thank you for pointing out these changes: although minor, these grammatical issues affect the readability of the article. —C.Fred (talk) 11:14, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Minor punctuation mistake

At the very start of the Reactions heading, it says:

The disaster's coverage was confined to a 30-second report on that evening's edition of Vremya, the flagship news program of the state television channel, Channel One. .

As you can see it has two dots at the end, which I'm pretty sure is a mistake.

Kosinvita (talk) 10:42, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Done, thanks. Lklundin (talk) 10:46, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2023 (2)

After reference to Wagner's assertion that the plane was shot down by Russian air defense, request to add a line noting that at least one other Russian non-state news source disputes that claim, arguing that it may have been an explosion started from onboard the plane, as videos show no trail of smoke consistent with a ground missile and eye-witnesses have not reported seeing any missile.

Source: ;

Reasoning: since nothing is confirmed right now, it doesn't seem correct to only include one possible scenario when others are available. RabsLanding (talk) 19:08, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Not sure if Telegram links are allowed as standalone sources, I'm looking at the Meduza website to see if I can find a source there to corroborate the claim. Chaotic Enby (talk) 19:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  Update: found this with Fedorov's quote Chaotic Enby (talk) 19:22, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

  I think it warrants inclusion, I'm going to try and find a source that is a little bit more mainstream. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 19:53, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

   Done as I looked into Meduza and it seems like a good enough source to me. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 20:02, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

References

Patrick Ryder

Patrick Ryder's opinion seems out of place in "Investigations". I think it should be moved to "Reactions". More importantly, I can't find it in the NYTimes cite (because it's a stupid fucking updating timeline where it's impossible to link to anything permanently). 93.72.49.123 (talk) 20:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done Also threw in some bonus copyediting. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 23:29, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Edit request

Please add: According to preliminary assessments by US intelligence agencies, an "internal explosion" on board the aircraft led to the crash. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/24/world/europe/us-prigozhin-plane-crash.html 91.54.26.242 (talk) 03:45, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

 Already done Parham wiki (talk) 19:14, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 August 2023

Please add in Investigation section that Molecular-Genetic tests had been conducted on the remains were found out matching to the Flight list. DitorWiki (talk) 14:46, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

It was already done in the passengers section no need to be repetitive. Borgenland (talk) 16:10, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

 Already done A09 (talk) 21:06, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Russian Civil Aviation Authority confirms that everyone on board has died

If you look on Sky News that's what they claim. Is anyone able to find the original source, or at least a proper article instead of a timeline? - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 20:09, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Here is the website of the Authority: http://favt.gov.ru/

I am looking for the statement. Maksiwood 2 (talk) 20:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Found the source @AquilaFasciata

https://t.me/s/favt_ru Maksiwood 2 (talk) 20:27, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Appreciate ya - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 20:29, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Edit request

The list of people on board the plane, as stated by the Russian Aviation Authority, is:

Propustin Sergey Makaryan Evgeniy Totmin Aleksandr Chekalov Valeriy Utkin Dmitriy Matuseev Nikolay Prigozhin Evgeniy

Crew members: Levshin Aleksei, commander; Karimov Rustam, co-pilot; Raspopova Kristina, flight attendant.

Source: https://t.me/s/favt_ru

I think this should be added.

Maksiwood 2 (talk) 20:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

You need to provide a reference as per WP:BURDEN We normally only list notable people who die in crashes, ie people with bios already on Wikipedia. - Ahunt (talk) 21:01, 23 August 2023 (UTC).

EDIT: For later context: above reply was changed from saying that I have to provide sources to this. /edit

I have: https://t.me/s/favt_ru

Here's another: https://tass.ru/proisshestviya/18572819 Maksiwood 2 (talk) 21:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

This does not demonstrate the notability of any passengers beyond Prigozhin and Utkin. Those two are already included in the article. Dieknon (talk) 21:05, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Ahunt changed their reply Maksiwood 2 (talk) 21:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

He probably did so prior to becoming aware of the fact that you've replied to him. I shall format it to be less confusing. User:Ahunt, I am going to edit your comment to be in line with the talk page guidelines, so this is your chance to object. Dieknon (talk) 21:42, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Add information about the likelihood of it being shot down.

Add a small bit of text which explains that "Given the presumed maximum altitude of the plane, it is possible that plane was shot down due to the capability of active Russian air defense systems being able to shoot the plane down."

This will provide a little bit more context hopefully. Novoazovsk24 (talk) 20:59, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Add the presumed maximum altitude (28,000ft) and give an example of a system bthat can reach that height. Maksiwood 2 (talk) 21:02, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I cannot edit the page but I agree. Novoazovsk24 (talk) 21:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The average Wikipedia reader will find the information that "Russia has anti-air missiles" pretty damn obvious. This addition would bloat the article and give undue weight to the Russian missile hypothesis. Yes, it could be a missile. And we can add more to the article once major news sources start talking about it. But they haven't started yet. So for now, we wait.

Dieknon (talk) 21:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

FlightRadar24

According to CNN the transponders of the plane stopped transmitting data around 6:11 p.m. local time, according to flight tracking data from FlightRadar24, which can be fully accessed with a paid membership. [1], [2] GoodSimon (talk) 21:58, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Shootdown?

New photos of the aftermath of the aircraft shows some tiny holes similar like a missile Hit, Like Siberian 1812, MH 17 and PS752, plus the vertical stabilizer was found some kilometers away from the crash site, getting this info by Denys Davydov: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H2FGud37RQ

(You can argue about YT being not a realiable source, but he shows the images and Denys is very credible) Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 01:42, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Even then it’s not us editors job to make OR. Let proper analysts do the thing and make the speculation if necessary. Borgenland (talk) 01:44, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 August 2023

Change the uppercase 'a' in the word 'an' at the very start of the article to be lowercase. Nextrava (talk) 19:29, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done Cannolis (talk) 20:40, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Passengers and crew

. Chris Adam203 (talk) 20:29, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Could you post because I can't because protection. Chris Adam203 (talk) 20:30, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

What do you wish to be posted @Chris Adam203 Maksiwood 2 (talk) 20:31, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Passengers and crew Chris Adam203 (talk) 20:32, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Passengers and crew : Chris Adam203 (talk) 20:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I think it's too long for writing here Chris Adam203 (talk) 20:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The list with the passengers, it's public Chris Adam203 (talk) 20:34, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Do you mean the list that the Russian aviation authority posted:

Propustin Sergey

Makaryan Evgeniy

Totmin Aleksandr

Chekalov Valeriy

Utkin Dmitriy

Matuseev Nikolay

Prigozhin Evgeniy

Crew members:

Levshin Aleksei, commander;

Karimov Rustam, co-pilot;

Raspopova Kristina, flight attendant.' Maksiwood 2 (talk) 20:34, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes Chris Adam203 (talk) 20:34, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Well it just got Extended-Protected so I can't add it either. Maksiwood 2 (talk) 20:35, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

We only list notable people killed in aircraft crashes, ie people who have bios on Wikipedia already. See WP:NOTMEMORIAL. - Ahunt (talk) 21:33, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

So does this mean here in this article, we should call out the names of Prigozhin and his founding partner of the Wagner group (the partner's war name is actually Wagner and reason for Wagner Group's name). And then just list that x number of fellow passagnegers who were Wagner members and then that 3 crew members also perished in the downing of this jet? Captain, co-pilot and the stewardess. 2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (talk) 13:56, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

"Missing bodies"

Do not say there are two "missing" bodies. This is not the languages being used by the sources. There were 10 listed on the manifest, with eight bodies being accounted for. Schierbecker (talk) 20:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

"All ten passengers' remains were successfully recovered.[18]"
This conflicts with the manifest which has 7 passengers and 3 crew.
Also, the attributed source is a BBC article that itself attributes to unnamed reports (BBC is getting sloppy), so the source chain is broken; one cannot determine if all bodies were on the plane, if they were the same people as on the manifest, how many bodies have been recovered sofar, or who they are.
Also the statement conflicts with Shierbecker's above point of "There were 10 listed on the manifest, with eight bodies being accounted for". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a02:a470:54d5:1:2eb7:e95e:e7a:99a2 (talk)

Presumably killed

IanDBeacon reverted my edit ([3]) that Prigozhin and Utkin were _presumably_ killed in the crash. However, on the WP:BIO WP:BLP of Prigozhin there was and still is the {{recent death presumed}}. As such I call on IanDBeacon to revert their edit (and keep their discussion of this article here and not on my user talk-page). Thanks. Lklundin (talk) 07:16, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@Lklundin: I inserted "apparent" twice in the Reactions section. @IanDBeacon: Please wait for consensus based on reliable sources before changing to wording that Prigozhin's death is definite. There are plenty of clues that, per common sense, strongly point to a definite death (Wagner supporters putting a lit cross at his headquarters - they would likely have been contacted privately by Prigozhin if he were not in the crash; no online sign of life from Prigozhin himself; all ten bodies recovered but Russian authorities not denying his death in order to pretend he was someone insignificant or to delay his martyrdom status). However, making that interpretation would be WP:OR. Boud (talk) 08:29, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

As for when this page can write that Prigozhin (and Utkin) are dead, we need to align with especially the page of the Yevgeny Prigozhin, which as a WP:BLP has a high threshold for a WP:RS regarding their death. In other words, as long as there is a "presumed"-template on the Prigozhin page we need to also presume their death here. Lklundin (talk) 08:53, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

S-300

The maximum range of an S-300 missile system is around 400km, the crash site is roughly equidistance at 200km between Putins property in Valday, Novgorod Oblast and Moscow, so missile systems defending either could have shot the plane down, but 200km is a long range and vapour trails could be expected. Ânes-pur-sàng (talk) 08:55, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

From the many vidoes already posted on YouTube, that all align/concur and not have immediate signs of editing as they align, there we do matter of fact see the vapour trails as exact fingerprint of a typical S-300 missile!

Pls see the french avaiation specialist and national tv who just uploaded this on YouTube:

Prigojine est mort, son avion aurait été abattu par un missile - YouTube

At 2 mins 03 seconds, you see the frames, where we see both the missile propulsion vapour trail, and you also see on same still frames the exact smoke you also get from the mid-air explosion, when this missile takes out an airplane!

Please also observe that Russia have several of these S-300 launch ramps on mobile platforms. From the vapour trail and the jet explosion and debris parts, it looks as if the S-300 AA system was in very close proximity on the ground, just below the jet where it past over on its trajectory to St Petersburg. Please also note that Moscow Air traffic control had asked unusually the jet flight crew to take a flight corridor several miles off but still parallel to the standard flight corridor used between Moscow and St Peterburg. 2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (talk) 13:22, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

None of this matters until reliable sources report on it. When they do, we can include the information with a citation to the reliable source(s). Also see WP:No original research. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 16:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Whose Commentary?

Official statements and reports aside (Russian and otherwise), we should only have a line or two about media speculation. Ukraine has something to say? Fine. France? Also noteworthy. The former head of the Russian desk of MI5? Lots of ex-government officials on the airwaves. Highly placed sources? I would tread lightly. kencf0618 (talk) 10:22, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. What I’m seeing is pretty much Telegram rumormongering getting added here as soon as a mainstream source quotes it.

If a reliable source is stating that certain less reliable sources made certain statements, then the only reliably sourced statement that can be made is that certain statements were made by certain less reliable sources.

In which case, we need to follow Wikipedia:Due weight. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 16:11, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more. And so we await the official report from the Ministry of Emergency Situations (Russia). kencf0618 (talk)

Coords

w:ru is giving the coordinates as {{coord|57|43|00|N|33|58|00|E}}, which sounds reasonable (no seconds, so within a mile or so) but is unsourced. Moscow Mule (talk) 16:14, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Putin's condolences

Is Prigozhin now really dead? Borgenland (talk) 16:43, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Are you asking us? And what prompted the question - did you read something in a source which you think should be added? 199.208.172.35 (talk) 16:46, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

See https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-08-24-23/index.html

Putin makes first remarks on Prigozhin since plane crash, calling Wagner boss "a man of difficult fate"

From CNN's Anna Chernova, Katharina Krebs and Radina Gigova

In his first remarks since the plane crash that presumably killed Yevgeny Prigozhin, Russian President Vladimir Putin said the Wagner founder was "a man of difficult fate, but talented."

Putin said Thursday he sends condolences to "Wagner employees" on board a plane that crashed on Wednesday.

"First of all, I want to express my sincere condolences to the families of all the victims, this is always a tragedy," he said.

"Preliminary information suggests that Wagner Group employees were also on board," Putin added during a meeting with the head of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic Denis Pushilin at the Kremlin.

"I would like to note that these people have made a significant contribution to our common cause in the fight against the neo-Nazi regime," Putin said, referring to Russia's war in Ukraine. The Russian leader has repeatedly and falsely accused the Ukrainian government of neo-Nazism.

Putin also said Russia's Investigative Committee is conducting an investigation.

Borgenland (talk) 16:58, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

None of that seems to bear on the "Is he really dead" question. Let the analysts and journalists continue doing their jobs. Who knows how much of an answer we'll ever really get. 199.208.172.35 (talk) 17:03, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Per the above Talk:2023_Tver_plane_crash#Presumably_killed the criterion in the context of this page is whether the {{Recent death presumed}} is present on Yevgeny Prigozhin. Also, WP:NOTFORUM. Lklundin (talk) 17:06, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Having trouble verifying citation

From the article: "Following the incident, the National Resistance Center of Ukraine reported that convoys of Wagner personnel and vehicles were seen leaving their bases in Belarus and heading towards the Russian border, with the Belarusian Special Operations Forces attempting to intercept them"

I tried following the citation, and it takes me to a very long feed instead of an individual article. (The Web Archive version is currently giving me "503 Service Unavailable ... No server is available to handle this request.") I tried doing Ctrl+F to verify the statement, but I'm having trouble finding it. Can the person who added this citation give a more precise citation that takes us directly to the relevant article (instead of a long feed of articles), or give a quote that we can do a Ctrl+F on. Slieredna (talk) 23:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@Scu ba: Parham wiki (talk) 23:17, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

feel free to remove it, it was in the live update BBC article, and there was no follow-up to it. Scu ba (talk) 02:46, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I actually found it referenced in today's (24 Aug) ISW report. But they assessed they are returning to Russia to disband, and made no mention of Belarusian special forces:

"The Ukrainian Resistance Center reported on August 23 that an unspecified number of Wagner personnel at camps in Belarus began preparations to return to Russia following Prigozhin’s death"

Scu ba (talk) 02:51, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I’d like to restore part of its effects on the Wagner Group later. Thanks for this source. Borgenland (talk) 02:54, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Thanks for raising this; I removed a similar claim earlier today that attempted to show effects that were not subtantiated by the source, and I will go ahead and remove this one too. What's worse is that I was able to make it to the second page of the feed and there is another headline showing that forces are not moving, so whoever wants to re-add this will clearly need a better source. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 23:25, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Proof & evidence, and a notice about Russian state security modus operandi

Firstly, there's a need for absolute, total, uncensored proof & evidence (visual confirmation) of the two main people of interest, Prigozhin and Utkin.

I don't expect the Russians nor Western intelligence to provide such materials, however, for this article's relevancy everything must be tackled with “alleged” and “supposedly”.

Secondly, people with an interest in these matters forget or genuinely don't know how the Russian state security organs (“gosbezopasnosti”) operate. “Vranyo”, “dezinformatsiya”, “zachistka”, “mokroye delo”, “gruz dvesti”, “eskalatsiya radi/dlya deeskalatsii”, and “voron voronu glaz ne vyklyuyet” (alternatively “volk ne kusayet drugogo volka”), are the name(s) of their game.

For all intents & purposes, it isn't outside the realm of possibilities that while the news broke out about the plane being shot or a bomb doing the job that, somewhere in Fiji or Dubai, a Russian man ordering by gesturing with his left four-fingered hand, for himself & his friend fresh out after his tattoo removal surgery, another round of vodka, watching the news, laughing together. A phonecall interrupts their R&R, reminding them that their families & some of their friends will soon join them at their location, pension retreat. Trexerman (talk) 09:23, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Crosslink within Wagner Group, Prigozhin, et.al.

When this article is ready, please crosspost / crosslink this article within Wagner Group Yevgeny Prigozhin, Dmitry Utkin, and any other articles in which it should be referenced/included. I am not able to edit those pages. 20:10, 25 August 2023 (UTC) LWu22 (talk) 20:10, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

See also

I'm thinking of adding a See Also section with the Lin Biao incident. What do you all think? Bremps... 01:21, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Military leaders who tried (allegedly in Lin's case) to rebel against their autocratic leader, and met an untimely, suspicious death in a plabe crash Bremps... 01:22, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

That would make sense, as it does relate, however, this will also prompt everyone to add every other political/military officials fatality by crashed aircraft to the 'see also'. Vatily.varistokovko (talk) 03:05, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Best to leave such things until we see secondary sources making comparisons. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:17, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump @Vatily.varistokovko We have a reliable secondary source now. A Plane Crash and Prigozhin’s Lin Biao Moment – The Diplomat Bremps... 00:55, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

If so, it would make more sense to link to the subject of Putin's regime of 'Fenestration' as it is now termed. Namely that known leaders getting in Putin's personal way, has an overwhelming probability of terminating their lives in unusual ways. Fenestration is direct when falling out of windows of high rise buildings. Tea and what appear to be 'suicides' are other methods. But this is best described in seperate dedicated article on the Putin Purge. 2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (talk) 14:01, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Other Victims

List of other passengers and crew (not sure about the proper anglicization of these):
Passengers

• Sergei Propustin
• Evgeney Makaryan
• Alexandr Totmin
• Valery Chekalov
• Nikolai Matyuseev

Source: [4]https://tass.ru/proisshestviya/18572819 RabsLanding (talk) 20:35, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles on plane crashes usually do not include detailed passenger lists. Unless all of these people are notable somehow, I am against the idea of including them in the article. Dieknon (talk) 21:04, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Articles about public-transport flights (that is, scheduled airliner flights) generally don't list all the passengers, indeed - because they have nothing in common (beyond the shared misfortune of being on the same flight). But for notable general-aviation flights, where the occupants usually do share a pre-existing relationship, we very often do list them. Even if the individuals in question aren't notable themselves (or are only tangentially (WP:NOTINHERIT), due to their relations with the notable persons on the flight). Some examples:

• 1999 South Dakota Learjet crash - we list Stewart's agent and the agent's boss, and both of the flight crew
• Randy Rhoads#Death - we list the makeup artist passenger, and the pilot
• Death of Stevie Ray Vaughan - we Eric Clapton's agent, Clapton's bodyguard, and an assistant tour manager, and we list the single pilot
• 1991 Vallejo helicopter crash - we list Graham's girlfriend, and we list the single pilot
• Otis Redding#Death - we list all the musicians, the band's valet, and the single pilot

It's very likely that all the people aboard this flight are employees of Wagner or Prigozhin, or are friends or other associates of the notable people on the flight. None of these people just rolled up at Sheremetyevo, bought a ticket, and were surprised to find they were the row behind Prigozhin.

That said, we shouldn't add them now, because a) it's discomfiting to use TASS as a source, even for official statements and b) because we can't yet say who these people are and why they were on the flight. But when both of these issues are adequately solved, I think we would normally list all those onboard. -- Finlay McWalter··–·Talk 20:48, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I disagree unless the other people are notable out of the interest of housekeeping – I think if we list the names, it will add length and potential clutter that wouldn't add to the understanding of the flight. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 20:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Support listing the names, at least the passengers. It is because of who was on the plane that this crash is primarily notable. There's only 7 passengers, so adding them is not unwieldy. There's already a good amount of secondary reporting in RS about the identities and roles of the passengers, including several who were notable enough to be sanctioned by the U.S. for their Wagner roles. See [5] [6] [7] [8], among others. At the very least, we should have the name and one-line bio for the notable passengers. Longhornsg (talk) 21:19, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I concur. The main reason this is at the top of the news is because of who is believed dead, not because a plane crashed. Nalixar (talk) 17:22, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Wingframe shows possible damage via anti-aircraft fire?

Telegram: Contact @orchestra_w Refer to image in the telegram post. Vatily.varistokovko (talk) 21:02, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Dont know how I can upload photos to here? But we have already a few photos that private citizens have posted from Russia, who came to the debris before authorities yet on site to close it off. One of those shows a side panel/door from the plane, with shrapnel damage that is similar to anti-aircraft missile damage. So we talk here about like A300 type of ground to air defense missile. 2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (talk) 13:13, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

You probably meant S300 and not A300? But in any case, the trail fumes we have seen from videos recording the downing of the plane does not indicate S300 type of AA missile usage. But instead the SA-19 Grison missiles you find on the 2S6M Tunguska AA vehicle, which Russia has many of in the area and they are highly mobile. 2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (talk) 09:33, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

SkyNews has a longer video segment, where they show live video from the crash site(s). Here it is 100% clear that it is the tail's vertical rudder section that lays on the ground, where its around 2km away from the rest of the plane, which came down in almost one piece.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/video/prigozhin-what-do-we-know/vi-AA1fJ1Ro?ocid=socialshare

You can recognize the vertical rudder shape, if you look up how the plane normally looks like. It is the only area, where you have that specific tube-shape at end, and the painting pattern with blue and the white segments matches this also.

The aviation/military expert in the studio also highlights that an onboard bomb would typically destroy the airplane in midair into many smaller pieces than what we saw. And also that the smoke trail vapor we see in the sky on the video-recording just as it happened in the sky, s typical signature of an anti-air missile had been fired towards the plane to take it down. 2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (talk) 13:15, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Do we know the origin of the trail? Nalixar (talk) 17:24, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Avoid saying "killed" or "assassinated" until actual reports appear.

We're not here to speculate, but to be an encyclopedia. It is only a murder when we know for sure it is a murder. Unspectrogram (talk) 05:44, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

The word killed does not on its own equate a murder, it simply means to cause the death of a living being. I support your motion in refraining from stating an assassination as fact, though we should still use presumably assassinate. NorthStarMI (talk) 07:11, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Lets just used the terms "died", or "dead" for now. Nalixar (talk) 17:13, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 25 August 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash for geographic accuracy. (non-admin closure) Qono (talk) 04:18, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

---

2023 Tver plane crash → ? – The title is incorrect. Tver is a city far away from where the plane crashed. Tver Oblast is a wider region named after the city, and it's not referred to as just "Tver." Triggerhippie4 (talk) 15:48, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support move to 2023 Russia Embraer Legacy 600 crash. Per nom, Tver isn't accurate. Per WP:CONSISTENT, the overwhelming majority of the crashes on Template:Aviation_accidents_and_incidents_in_2023 have the format "2023 + country + aircraft + crash", so suggest we mirror that naming convention for this article. Longhornsg (talk) 15:54, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Support move to 2023 Russia Embraer Legacy 600 crash, this is definitely better, it should have the aircraft name rather than "plane." This is necessary to distinguish this event from any other plane crashes in the region. The "crash" part might later be changed as well pending more word from credible sources (i.e. The Pentagon confirming it as "sabotage" or "assassination" etc.} Alpacaaviator (talk) 17:04, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

    The location doesn't seem to be the important part, at least compared to the significance of the passengers. I would prefer a title that reflects this. Nalixar (talk) 17:33, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose and suggest a speedy close while information still comes in. This is premature and guaranteed to end with a closure of WP:TRAINWRECK given no alternative title is suggested. Let more information come in. The current title is simple, accurate, and makes clear which crash is being discussed. That said, I have no opinion on a possible move to 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash as basically the equivalent of the current title if people really want to include "Oblast." Oppose anything else for the moment. SnowFire (talk) 16:30, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

  "Tver" and "Tver Oblast" are different things. To confuse them is a mistake, plain and simple. Anyone knowing Russian will confirm this. Triggerhippie4 (talk) 16:56, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

  • • Can I recommend you edit your nomination to directly suggest 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash then? I suspect that is more likely to get a decisive result than an open "vote for your favorite title" question. SnowFire (talk) 18:48, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support move to 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash. 1857a (talk) 16:42, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose an Embraer Legacy move as it it to wieldy Borgenland (talk) 17:41, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support, "Tver" is innacurate. "Tver Oblast" is better. Smeagol 17 (talk) 18:39, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support move to 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 19:09, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support either 2023 Russia Embraer Legacy 600 crash or 2023 Tver Oblast Embraer crash. Also strongly support waiting until more concrete information exists. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 19:11, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support move to 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash, it's a more accurate name. R. J. Dockery (talk) 20:16, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support move to 2023 Wagner business jet crash or maybe 2023 Russia business jet crash per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONCISE. I'm aware of WP:AVTITLE; however, as others have pointed out, "Tver" is somewhat ambiguous (not to mention obscure), and I 'd argue that "Embraer Legacy 600" is equally obscure to those unfamiliar with aviation. Mainstream media sources overwhelmingly refer to the event as the "Russia" or "Wagner" "business jet crash" or "plane crash"; a quick Google search bears this out. Of these terms, "business jet" sounds more encyclopedic and "Russia" is too ambiguous, because numerous bizjets will likely crash in Russia in 2023. Carguychris (talk) 20:53, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

  I’d make do with Wagner. Borgenland (talk) 04:16, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom, either to 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash or 2023 Russian Embraer Legacy 600 crash, possibly 2023 Wagner business jet crash. Brandmeister^talk 22:18, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
• "Plane" should not be in the title at all, it should at least be "airplane" or "business jet" if people are opposed to "Embraer Legacy." I still argue that there should be something discerning it from other plane crashes. Alpacaaviator(talk) 22:22, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

  I think "airplane" is too ambiguous, and a quick informal survey of family members reveals that nobody knows what an Embraer Legacy is, despite having listened (or at least pretended to listen) to me yammer about aircraft for years. I strongly support "business jet crash", regardless of whether it's ultimately Tver, Russia, or Wagner. "Helicopter crash" is widely used in Wikipedia article titles for similar reasons, so it's already an established practice to name the aircraft class rather than the precise make and model. Carguychris (talk) 22:40, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

• "Plane" is WP:SLANG or a WP:COLLOQUIALISM and should not be used in encyclopedic writing and especially not in an article title. - Ahunt (talk) 22:27, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

  I'll occasionally let the word "plane" slide in article text, but I definitely concur about the title. Carguychris (talk) 22:34, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

  2023 Elmina plane crash. 2022 Þingvallavatn plane crash. 2021 Palmas FR plane crash. 2019 Pakistan Army military plane crash. Lokomotiv Yaroslavl plane crash. It is common enough in article names for aviation incidents. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:49, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support move to 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash unless and until a popular name à la The Day the Music Died emerges as per WP:AVTITLE... and let WP:Disambiguation do the rest. kencf0618 (talk) 22:45, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash. Concise and accurate. And no, 'plane' isn't slang. It is a word in common usage, unambiguous in context, and ubiquitous in most varieties of English, as a simple Google search will readily confirm. Or indeed, a simple check of the titles for sources currently cited in the article: Financial Times, NYT, Sky News, Telegraph, Newsweek, BBC, et, etc, etc... AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:20, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

  A Google news search for "Tver Oblast plane crash" returns 17,900 results, while "Wagner plane crash" returns 73,700 results. Per WP:COMMONNAME, Wagner is clearly the more prominent name. Carguychris (talk) 18:27, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support move to 2023 Russia Embraer Legacy 600 crash per article naming conventions of other plane crashes and above. Yeoutie (talk) 03:58, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose any names including "Russia". We're talking about the largest country in the world by area, so this would be even broader and imprecise than Tver (or Tver Oblast, whichever one it is). For comparison we don't name any article about air crashes in the United States as, say for example "2023 United States plane crash" or "2023 American plane crash" or the like. No opinions on the other names suggested. S5A-0043^Talk 05:20, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support move to 2023 Wagner business jet crash. It is unequivocal and references Wagner, which is more salient here than Embraer or Tver. --TadejM ^{my talk} 07:12, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Support move to 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash and strongly oppose 2023 Russian Embraer Legacy 600 crash as too clunky and unmemorable. Killuminator (talk) 08:34, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Support move to 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash, per the reasons cited by others. Ref ^(chew)(do) 09:22, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support move to 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash. More WP:PRECISE. Pilaz (talk) 11:27, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

• Suggestion: why not something like Death of Yevgeny Prigozhin? News sources I've seen focus primarily on Prigozhin's death, and as a result that feels like more of a commonname than any of the descriptive titles above. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 12:43, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Because articles on notable aviation accidents are usually named per WP:AVTITLE. That's why e.g. Death of Kobe Bryant redirects to 2020 Calabasas helicopter crash and Death of Aaliyah to 2001 Marsh Harbour Cessna 402 crash. Brandmeister^talk 13:34, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
    • Huh. That feels ripe for a wider discussion, considering that's a WikiProject page vs. WP:COMMONNAME etc. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 16:23, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  As I write this, it's not yet been firmly established that Prigozhin was actually aboard the aircraft, and the crash may have also resulted in the deaths of several other Wikinotable figures. Carguychris (talk) 18:40, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed. Death could imply assassination or accident, and I believe Prigozhin's death has been confirmed. Nalixar (talk) 13:53, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

• I don't know why there are two threads about a possible move, but I'll repeat what I just wrote above, which is that the year is totally unnecessary, both as a disambiguator and per WP:AVTITLE. -- Kicking222 (talk) 13:08, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
  • It's not a regular airline flight with unique number, as such the year is good per WP:AVTITLE to distinguish from other possible Embraer Legacy 600 crashes: "For further disambiguation, the year can be added". And there are other examples: 2006 New York City Cirrus SR20 crash, 1999 South Dakota Learjet crash, etc. Brandmeister^talk 13:34, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

    Why are you disambiguating for something that has never happened? If another Embraer Legacy 600 gets shot down, then disambiguate. Kicking222 (talk) 15:03, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  Because per Embraer Legacy 600#Accidents and incidents there was already at least one crash of that aircraft before. Brandmeister^talk 15:54, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support either 2023 Kuzhenkino Embraer Legacy 600 crash or 2023 Tver Oblast Embraer Legacy 600 crash (both follow WP:AVTITLE and both titles are WP:PRECISE). RandomInfinity17 (talk - contributions) 15:22, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONCISE should always trump WP:AVTITLE and WP:PRECISE. This is why this article isn't titled the 1959 Cerro Gordo County, Iowa Beechcraft 35 Bonanza crash, and this one isn't titled the 1990 Walworth County, Wisconsin Bell 206B crash. Carguychris (talk) 18:34, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support move to 2023 Wagner business jet crash, or alternatively keep at current title 2023 Tver plane crash; the Wagner connection is what's significant here, not the location or aircraft type. — The Anome (talk) 17:32, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
• Comment WP:AVTITLE says it applies to accidents, and I haven't heard of anyone who thinks this was an accident. We don't know for certain that it was shot down, rather than having a bomb placed on board. Naming precedent in such cases is unclear, at least to me. When it is well established that a plane was shot down, commercial flights seem to get articles named with the flight designation (airline plus flight number), and military incidents get titles like 1991 Azerbaijani Mil Mi-8 shootdown. I guess I would leave it where it is until shootdown is confirmed. But 2023 Wagner business jet crash would be good too. --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 19:36, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  "I guess I would leave it where it is." The current title is factually incorrect, which is the most important issue of all in this discussion. The distance between Tver and the site of the crash near Kuzhenkino is approximately 150 kms, or 100 miles, you can see it on the map. Someone confused Tver with Tver Oblast (different things). Triggerhippie4 (talk) 20:26, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  Strongly concur, and I would argue that using Tver Oblast in the title is inherently imprecise, as it's roughly the size of Maine, New Brunswick, or the entire island of Ireland, and since it lies under a busy air corridor between Moscow and the Baltic, it's a virtual certainty that multiple aircraft will crash there in 2023, leading to the need for clunky additional wording to disambiguate the title. 2023 Wagner business jet crash disambiguates it much more concisely. Carguychris (talk) 23:09, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  Are you saying that "it's a virtual certainty that multiple aircraft will crash" in Tver Oblast in 2023? Triggerhippie4 (talk) 23:31, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, just like multiple aircraft will likely crash in Maine, New Brunswick, and the island of Ireland. Carguychris (talk) 15:54, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

  It's news to me that planes crash so often. How many crashes happened in the oblast in 2023 so far? Or in 2022? Triggerhippie4 (talk) 21:43, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support 2023 Wagner business jet crash per TadejM. Aaron Liu (talk) 20:33, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  2023 Wagner plane crash is also fine. I oppose 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash as Tver Oblast is not the focus/importance of this article and is the size of Maine; the focus is on Wagner Aaron Liu (talk) 16:39, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

• Comment I prefer the more accurate "Tver Oblast" over "Tver" as the crash location is about 150 km away from the city, as pointed out above. "Kuzhenkino" is also acceptable. I personally prefer titles that omit "Embraer Legacy 600" as the exact model of the plane doesn't seem particularly important to readers, and it seems obscure to anyone but aviation experts, although I acknowledge that including it is part of a guideline. But overall I would be happiest with a title that mentions "Wagner" (or "Prigozhin"), as that is by far the most noteworthy aspect of the crash. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 00:57, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

  I agree Parham wiki (talk) 09:12, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Support: Move to Assassination of Yevgeny Prigozhin, Killing of Yevgeny Prigozhin, or Death of Yevgeny Prigozhin. AmericanBaath (talk) 01:50, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

It's not just him, there were a lot of other Wagner people on that jet. "Assassination" is also unconfirmed; if we do use one of these I'd rather use "Death". Aaron Liu (talk) 14:55, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Possibly move to Death of Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmity Utkin? AmericanBaath (talk) 15:03, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

There's also Valery Checkhalov and 2 Wagner veterans. I'd rather go with 2023 Wagner business jet crash as there are too many people here. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:10, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support move to 2023 Wagner business jet crash as I think Prigozhin's involvement is more important and what most people will remember, not that it was in Tver Oblast. Ice Cream Sandwich 7 (talk) 04:09, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support move to 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash. It's the most concise, neutral and exact title I can think of. MaeseLeon (talk) 06:10, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support move to 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash. Taylor 49 (talk) 10:40, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support move to 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash. It mirrors titles of other articles about plane crashes. Ânes-pur-sàng (talk) 11:15, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support move to 2023 Wagner business jet crash as it conveys what is most notable about the topic. People come to the article primarily because it was a plane carrying Wagner leaders, or because it was likely an assassination of the occupants by agents of Putin, not because it happened in Tver Oblast. - Abovfold (talk) 16:05, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support move to 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash, as the crash was in the oblast and not in the city. GreatLeader1945 (talk) 16:26, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
• Comment: As a wise person once said, this will end with a WP:TRAINWRECK procedural keep. Why not save your energies until there's a fixed target to discuss...? CapnZapp (talk) 18:14, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

  This is not a trainwreck. A trainwreck is when a couple pages of several merit are put in the same discussion. This is just one page and is not eligible for a procedural keep. We might need an RfC on whether to use Tver Oblast plane or Wagner business jet though. Aaron Liu (talk) 18:47, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

The new name will never be decided this way, and you know it. Glad we agree this discussion is useless. CapnZapp (talk) 20:55, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I see overwhelming preference for 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash above with solid rationale. And I bet, not just me. Brandmeister^talk 21:31, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

However that doesn't mean it should be the outcome. "2023 Wagner business jet crash" supporters haven't engaged in much discussion with "2023 Tver Oblast plane crash" supporters, so we'd likely need a separate discussion, maybe an RfC to decide which name to use unless there's more discussion. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:40, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

It's a solid way to decide candidates for the names. Only four titles have seen support from more than 2 people, two of which from more than 3. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:36, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support move to 2023 Tver Oblast Wagner plane crash - both because this is more accurate and includes the WP:COMMONNAME. 72.14.126.22 (talk) 18:56, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

  That is a bit too long and unwieldy. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:42, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

  I agree that it's clunky, but it's perhaps the best compromise between WP:COMMONNAME and WP:AVTITLE. I'm not absolutely opposed to including the location in the title; I just think that the location by itself fails to convey what is most salient about this crash (Wagner and Prigozhin). I agree with your earlier suggestion for an RfC. Carguychris (talk) 17:05, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support move, but to what? "Tver" is the oblast's name, and the local community where it happened is called "Kuzhenkino". We don't know, though, just what happened. Yes, everyone suspects that the aircraft was deliberately downed, quite likely on Vladimir Putin's orders, but are we likely to have that confirmed for us in the short term? Until the cause is established, I suggest a name such as Kuzhenkino incident. Kelisi (talk) 19:24, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

  It crashed in Tver Oblast in any case. Smeagol 17 (talk) 21:49, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

  It also crashed near Kuzhenkino which is a lot more precise. Aaron Liu (talk) 22:42, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support move, the argument for the title change seems solid - "2023 + country + plane + crash as mentioned in the majority is solid.

ballads^one 22:09, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@Ballads2110 Are you supporting "2023 Russia plane crash" or "2023 Tver Oblast plane crash"? Aaron Liu (talk) 22:34, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

2023 Russia Embraer Legacy 600 crash .

2023 + Country + Plane Model + Crash ballads^one 11:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support - I would suggest something like 2023 Wagner plane crash or 2023 Prigozhin plane crash. There doesn't seem to be a common name that a majority of sources are using, but most do mention either Wagner or Prigozhin in the headline. For the former, there are a large number of headlines that prioritize Wagner over Tver, such as DNA confirms Wagner Group leader among crash victims, Russian officials say. For the latter, this appears to be the closest to a common name that I can find, with examples such as: Yevgeny Prigozhin crash was not caused by surface-to-air missile, says US; Prigozhin plane crash: What happened?; Nobody 'thought this was an accident': Prigozhin crash sends a signal to Russia's elite; Pentagon: No info to support missile strike theory for Prigozhin crash; Ros Atkins on... potential causes of the Prigozhin plane crash; News Wrap: Kremlin denies involvement in Prigozhin crash; Prigozhin plane crash: What's next after Wagner Group leader's apparent demise?; Russia Ally Calls Prigozhin Crash ‘Too Crude’ to Involve Putin; Prigozhin Plane Crash Analysis: Early Evidence Suggests Bomb, Sabotage. (Emphasis mine) --Super Goku V (talk) 07:30, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

  I agree Parham wiki (talk) 10:02, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support move to 2023 Wagner plane crash. Brief and to the point. Ericoides (talk) 13:45, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support move to 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash per reasons described. Other names are too specific and suggest a relationship between the occupants and why their plane went down. Yes, we will probably soon have very good evidence that the crash was a targeted bring-down, but as of right now this is still mostly (very informed) conjecture. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:20, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

  How does including the fact that Wagner people were on the plane, which is what gave this event importance other than being the plane's model's second crash in history, suggest a relationship? Aaron Liu (talk) 17:34, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Support 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash. Including "Wagner" is simply too precise. estar8806 (talk) ★ 17:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

How so? Tver Oblast is the size of Maine and is very imprecise. Unless you already know the plane crashed in Tver Oblast (which isn't the case in my local bubble) you won't look at that title and know that's the one where Wagner leaders died. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:52, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

It's precise because all the passengers were Wagner. Does "too precise" make any sense, like saying that calling the late Queen by the name Queen Elizabeth II is "too precise" on account of the number II? Ericoides (talk) 18:17, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Support 2023 Tver Oblast plane crash for now. This looks like WP:TRAINWRECK but we can at least change it to being more correct by adding "Oblast" at this time. JM2023 (talk) 19:02, 28 August 2023 (UTC)*

Support Wagner Group business jet crash. The incident would be pretty non-notable if had killed any other businesspeople, also adding "Group" for clarity. "2023" isn't needed as Wagner business jet crashes aren't numerous...--Paragem (talk) 02:30, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Support Wagner Group business jet crash. This is more encyclopedic than "plane." Alpacaaviator (talk) 03:45, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reserve chronology?

Why is the background section in reverse chronology? It starts at 2023, then the next paragraph is in 2019. These should be switched. --2603:3000:60:4100:DD95:6C97:73BF:EAC2 (talk) 14:34, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the 2019 statement shouldn't even be there; it's entirely unconnected with this incident and drawing a connection between the two is WP:SYNTH. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 03:11, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I put it there when no one was still sure whether he was really dead. I won’t mind it being taken down now. Borgenland (talk) 03:26, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you; I've removed the statement. Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 05:49, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect description altitude vs airspeed

The description of the flight path is incorrect. The author has transposed airspeed as altitude. EspressoDan (talk) 05:22, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

FlightRadar24 have made a dedicated page on their website now, where they have published their detailed recordings tracking this last flight of the airplane. Here you can see detailed data points on altitude and vertical change rates and you can also download the data points:

"Russian Legacy 600 crashes near Tver | Flightradar24 Blog"

Please note also that FlightRadar actually notices that the plane on that day did exceptionally not transmit its geo location coordinates! But that they got these through interpolation from their other sources on the ground. 2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (talk) 10:28, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Interesting. Any educated guesses as to why they wouldn't transmit their coordinates? Nalixar (talk) 17:30, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Needing sources for correct path. -Lemonaka‎ 09:13, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Title

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

We need to find a better title. One difficulty I have is with "plane crash", which is not encyclopedic. How about Tver Embraer Legacy shoot down. I don't think we need a year disambiguator here. Mjroots (talk) 18:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Support Similar articles have the word "shootdown" in their name, see "shootdown" for examples. CJ-Moki (talk) 18:06, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I feel like it should be held off until more information comes out. It hasn't even been confirmed that the plane was shot down. Maksiwood 2 (talk) 18:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Wait until it's been confirmed if it was actually shot down or not (or at least, until there's a consensus in reliable sources; actual confirmation may be hard to come by). NekoKatsun (nyaa) 18:16, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

agreed - wait Jjazz76 (talk) 18:18, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd like to suggest, once this is confirmed, mentioning Wagner or the plane's owner into the title, this seems more meaningful that the location (this is assuming we reach consensus where we can reasonably expect the plane was taken down to get at the passengers, not on account of where the plane was located: it's fair to expect the event likely relates to the owners of the plane). On shootdown vs plane crash, I'd weakly support shootdown, and I agree on waiting for confirmation Mlkj (talk) 18:29, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I concur - I used a neutral term as I created the article in haste as so little was known. No Swan So Fine (talk) 18:30, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I concur - The location and the date are of secondary importance to the impact of the event, the persons involved, and the possibility of foul play. Nalixar (talk) 13:11, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

General consensus on plane incidents is to include the year, the make/model/number of the aircraft, the location, and what happened (crash, shootdown, etc). See for example 2001 Marsh Harbour Cessna 402 crash, 2020 Calabasas helicopter crash, or 1999 Martha's Vineyard plane crash (Aaliyah, Kobe Bryant, and JFK Jr. respectively). WP:AVTITLE is the relevant convention. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 22:05, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Wait as per NekoKatsun. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 19:48, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Support - The BBC is reporting it was shot down. - Ahunt (talk) 19:55, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

"Social media linked to the Wagner mercenary group" to me sounds like a pretty flimsy source without further research. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 13:49, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose all mentioning the names of those involved per NekoKatsun. Support any title that follows WP:AVINANE/WP:AVTITLE.

S5A-0043^Talk 02:11, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I've collected some possible title options that this page could be renamed to

• Options that the page can be renamed to right now:

• 2023 Kuzhenkino Embraer Legacy 600 crash
• 2023 Tver Embraer Legacy 600 crash (both follow WP:AVTITLE)

• Options that need more sources or confirmation to be renamed to

• Assassination of Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin (if it does turn out to be an intentional act against them, similar to Assassination of Juvénal Habyarimana and Cyprien Ntaryamira)

• Death of Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin (unintentional act)

• Yevgeny Prigozhin plane crash (if this becomes the common name, similar to Lokomotiv Yaroslavl plane crash)

Let's take these names into consideration. RandomInfinity17 (talk - contributions) 23:00, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support for the Death of Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin: If the news is confirmed. Parham wiki (talk) 23:24, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support - Judging by the new photos f he crash, its becoming more evident that the embraer was shootdown, but the investigation has just started, but i do support this name change Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 01:47, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, if confirmed within reasonable doubt that the plane was deliberately shot down/bombed... Then the wiki article should include the name of Prigozhin in its title. It was his std plane for all his personal travel. And his presense in the jet being the reason for downing of the airplane. 2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (talk) 13:34, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

• Support 2023 Tver Embraer Legacy 600 crash and redirect Death of Yevgeny Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin to this article unless it warrants its own article. I think it would be worth keeping just the facts related to the aircraft crash to this page. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 13:44, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
• Support 2023 Tver Embraer Legacy 600 crash (or possibly 2023 Tver Embraer Legacy 600 shootdown if that is confirmed to be the case. Whatever title is chosen, "plane" is informal and shouldn't be included. Rosbif73 (talk) 14:31, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose renaming for now, and strongly oppose any inclusion of the crash cause or of the victims' names in the article title (especially a speculative one when the actual cause has not been officially determined). I recommend to wait with any rename, esp. given that the current title is permitted per WP:AVTITLE. — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:53, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

• Ooo. Assassination of Juvénal Habyarimana and Cyprien Ntaryamira is an excellent point, if this turns out to be an intentional act... but I have the sneaking suspicion that even if a shootdown is confirmed, Russia is likely to officially deny it, leading to media speculation that we don't want to report as fact in Wiki-voice. That said, I would support 2023 Tver Embraer Legacy 600 shootdown (if confirmed) or 2023 Tver Embraer Legacy 600 crash.

Once again, though there's no need to do this immediately. This just happened. Right now new information is coming out constantly, things are being corrected and changed, and the best plan is to wait for things to settle somewhat before deciding. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 17:38, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

• What is with people wanting "2023" in the title? If no other notable plane crashes / shootdowns / whatever have occurred in Tver or with this type of plane, it's unnecessary. WP:AVTITLE states that the year can be added, not that it must, and this is not a must. -- Kicking222 (talk) 13:02, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

  In the future will people more likely be looking for "that 2023 plane crash that killed Prigozhin & Utkin", or "that one time an EL 600 crashed"? – SJ + 10:27, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Support Article titles should have a nod to the future and having the date in the title makes it easier to distinguish it from future events (even if such events may or may not be likely. I would support have the year included.Jurisdicta (talk) 11:27, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

This major event's title is unambiguous without the year. Our titles of plane crash articles don't usually include the year. Jim 2 Michael (talk) 08:34, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Death could imply assassination or accident, and I believe we have confirmation via DNA testing that Prigozjin is dead. Nalixar (talk) 13:13, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

Destination

Are we sure that it was heading for St. Petersburg? Other planes travelling from Moscow to Petersburg at the same time travelled at a different angle. To me it seems that the plane's route was most consistent with flights to and from Kaliningrad. Swzielinski (talk) 18:03, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

@Swzielinski The sources state that the flight was going from Moscow to Saint Petersburg. Noorullah (talk) 18:13, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The sources listed in this article only say "most likely" and present no further sources themselves. Why would the plane not take the shortest route? It doesn't feel right for me. Swzielinski (talk) 18:23, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

This is a breaking news story. We won't be sure about a lot of things. If it hasn't been confirmed, it should be added that "The plane was believed to be heading for St. Petersburg..." Maksiwood 2 (talk) 18:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Looks to me like it was headed to St Petersburg rather than Kaliningrad - using the flight data publicly available from FR24: https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ra-02795#31b7cbfb Ghostlynewspaper4488 (talk) 18:55, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

I made a comparison of flight data: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1NYe6_cR0f0uYALldMrWKpbszMN9mQtA&usp=sharing

On the map the following flight data is shown:

1. The flight of RA02795 which ended in the crash, took place on 23.08.2023

2. The flight of RA02795 Moscow-St. Petersburg, which took place on 06.07.2023

3. The flight of AFL030 Moscow-St. Petersburg, took place on 23.08.2023

4. The flight of AUL253 Moscow-Kaliningrad, took place on 23.08.2023

Looks like the flights to Kaliningrad and to St. Petersburg actually fly parallel to each other for a part of the flight. I think that if the plane were to fly to St.Petersburg, it would've already turned more to the north like the other routes.

I don't think it's currently possible to know 100% that the plane headed for St. Petersburg or Kaliningrad. We will have to wait for more data. Swzielinski (talk) 19:28, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

This is interesting analysis, and may even be correct, but it’s original research and therefore I don’t think we can/should include it in the article. If you can find a reliable source that says the destination was Kaliningrad then of course it could be incorporated into the page. For now I think we won’t be able to say much other than “probably St. Petersburg”, as that seems to be what sources are reporting. 98.170.164.88 (talk) 19:41, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

A very interesting fact as documented by French aviation specialist "Prigojine est mort, son avion aurait été abattu par un missile - YouTube", then this plane was asked by Moscow air controllers to move a bit to the side of the traditional flight path corridor when flying to St Petersburg. Hence the plane was is a 'safe distance' away from the several other normal planes also in the air and on that route at same time.

You can also verify this by looking up overlays of flight paths from all the many planes that daily is navigating this same route. Prigojine's jet was distinctly several airmiles off this normal route. And check his jet's previous flights, again, they all used to follow the normal route. It is relevant, as we also have images from several sources that point towards a Russian anti-air missile was fired towards the jet. A jet of this built does not disintegrate mid-air without external catastrophic event. And we have image in this article already of side panel/door from jet that has the signature shrapnel marks from a missile. 2A02:A03F:A109:C900:6CC2:6904:6668:EED0 (talk) 13:08, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but I do not speak French. Does the specialist present some sort of audio recording or other proof for the "asked by Moscow ATC to move"? Swzielinski (talk) 14:11, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Wrong, a plane can also disintigrate mid-air through an internal catastrophic event… Tvx1 09:34, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Death of Prigozjin

BBC has just confirmed Prigozjin has died after Grey Zone announced it on Telegram 80.208.67.228 (talk) 19:39, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66599733

But there hasn't been anything from The Grey Zone saying that he died on the plane.

Yet Maksiwood 2 (talk) 19:44, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

TV2 News Denmark writes on behalf of Reuters that Grey Zone confirmed he died after “actions from traitors in Russia” 80.208.67.228 (talk) 19:46, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

"Grey Zone said so" is not proof. Prigozhin dying is an extraordinary event. If it is confirmed, every news outlet will be writing about it. Not just some guys on Telegram. Dieknon (talk) 19:49, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

"The Grey Zone" is not "just some guys on Telegram", they are tied to Wagner.

And if they are trying to fake it then Russians won't trust Wagner anymore, so I don't think they are. Maksiwood 2 (talk) 19:52, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

This is not confirmation. Anyone can presume anyone dead. Only when BBC posts a story titled "Prigozhin dead" or "Prigozhin confirmed dead", that's when it's confirmed. Dieknon (talk) 19:47, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Grey Zone is tied to PMC Wagner. 80.208.67.228 (talk) 19:48, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Hence why we shouldn't trust them. This could reasonably be Prigozhin faking his own death. It would then be in Grey Zone's interest to lie that he died. Dieknon (talk) 19:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1694429857407435234?s=20 what about this then 80.208.67.228 (talk) 19:52, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. Whether Prigozhin has died or not is not confirmed until multiple mainstream news sources say so. 2 Telegram posts and a Tweet are not enough. Dieknon (talk) 19:59, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes and what are your sources for Prigozhin faking it? Maksiwood 2 (talk) 20:02, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Firstly, talk pages don't have to conform to Wikipedia's verifiability policy.

Secondly, I never said the Prigozhin faked his death.

Dieknon (talk) 20:12, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

TASS confirming he was on board: https://tass.ru/proisshestviya/18572819 RabsLanding (talk) 20:14, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

TASS is not a reliable source by the widespread consensus of the Wikipedia community. You are free to read the most recent RfC on this issue, which contains countless example of TASS publishing obviously false information. Dieknon (talk) 20:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

That’s not what the explanation states. It’s reliable for some subjects of information and not for others. Tvx1 10:07, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

This once again uses the passenger list. It has nothing new. Maksiwood 2 (talk) 20:21, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Wagner mercenary boss Yevgeny Prigozhin killed in plane crash (cnbc.com)

Wagner chief Yevgeny Prigozhin presumed dead after Russia plane crash - BBC News

Wagner Chief Prigozhin Among 10 Dead In Russia Jet Crash - I24NEWS Vatily.varistokovko (talk) 21:11, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The source I gave was the BBC. Maksiwood 2 (talk) 19:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The BBC has confirmed that Grey Zone said that Prigozhin died. This is not the same thing as BBC confirming that Prigozhin died. Dieknon (talk) 19:52, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The Wagner telegram channel itself has said that their leader is dead. Maksiwood 2 (talk) 19:55, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

New BBC post: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66632924

Would this be enough for confirmation of his death? Note that the BBC cites Russian officials.

- MateoFrayo (talk) 02:52, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

It’s already fine. I’ve incorporated it 12 hours ago. Borgenland (talk) 02:54, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Problematic article title

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The disaster occurred not in Tver, but in the Tver region in the village of Kuzhenkino. "2023 Tver plane crash" should be renamed to "2023 Kuzhenkino plane crash", after the crash site. Arinbard (talk) 00:49, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

either that or rename as "Tver Oblast", rather than "Tver", which is misleading. Nalixar (talk) 17:29, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I feel the location shouldn't even be in the title since the notability of this article is in that Prigozhin and Utkin were on it. I wouldn't have even known this had happened in Tver if it weren't for the title. It should be something along the lines of "2023 Wagner business jet/plane crash" Ashleighhhhh (talk) 00:39, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Missile Theory

Reuters This states that it is unlikely that Prigozhins plane was shot down by anti-aircraft missles/systems according to information available at this time. Narshka (talk) 00:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure about that, the wreckage shows small holes like a AA fire Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 01:15, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Regardless, there is no DEFINITIVE evidence, it could very well have been anything under the sun. Narshka (talk) 05:06, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Small holes can also be created by the planes own debris following an internal explosion or during the crash. Tvx1 10:17, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 September 2023: improving referencing

I propose the following edits to the references on this page:

First change

Change reference 3 from

"Росавиация" [Rosaviatsiya]. Telegram (in Russian). Federal Air Transport Agency. Archived from the original on 23 August 2023. Retrieved 23 August 2023.

to

Росавиация, Russia's Federal Air Transport Agency (23 August 2023). "По данным авиакомпании на борту самолета Embraer - 135 (EBM-135BJ) находились следующие пассажиры" [According to the airline, the following passengers were on board the Embraer - 135 (EBM-135BJ)]. Telegram (in Russian). Archived from the original on 23 August 2023. Retrieved 23 August 2023.

This changes title and trans-title; adds last, first, author-link, and date; and removes publisher. I used Google Translate to translate the title; is that okay, and should I mark it somehow?

Second change

After "The crash prompted speculation that the jet was destroyed on the orders of Russian president Vladimir Putin, after Prigozhin had led the Wagner Group rebellion two months prior.", add the following citation:

Faulconbridge, Guy (2023-08-30). Trevelyan, Mark; Fletcher, Philippa (eds.). "Kremlin says Prigozhin plane may have been downed on purpose". Reuters. Moscow. Retrieved 2023-09-06.

Wikitext:

{{Cite news |last1=Faulconbridge |first=Guy |editor1-last=Trevelyan |editor1-first=Mark |editor2-last=Fletcher |editor2-first=Philippa |place=Moscow |date=2023-08-30 |title=Kremlin says Prigozhin plane may have been downed on purpose |language=en |work=Reuters |url=https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kremlin-says-prigozhin-plane-crash-may-have-been-caused-deliberately-2023-08-30/ |access-date=2023-09-06}}

Solomon Ucko (talk) 13:53, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

 Done Lightoil (talk) 08:05, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 September 2023

2023 Tver Oblast plane crash

The aircraft involved in the crash, pictured in 2022 at Sheremetyevo International Airport
Crash
Date	23 August 2023 (2023-08-23)
Summary	In-flight breakup due to unknown explosion affecting aircraft
Site	Kuzhenkino, Tver Oblast, Russia 57°44′52″N 33°57′15″E
Aircraft
Aircraft type	Embraer Legacy 600
Call sign	RA02795
Registration	RA-02795
Flight origin	Moscow
Destination	Saint Petersburg
Passengers	7
Crew	3
Fatalities	10
Survivors	0

Arrow Air charter (talk) 09:18, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

 Done Next time, please be so kind and indicate precisely what changes you are asking for (e.g.: Please replace the infobox image with......, caption: ............). This will help editors to see request details and decide more easily whether the proposed change is a constructive one. Thank you. — kashmīrī ^TALK 22:18, 13 September 2023 (UTC)