@Shaidar cuebiyar Ha! I like this bit from the link you shared: "it's a whole lot of positivity with a strong dose of reality that life is never perfect." That sounds like a good way forward into the new year. Netherzone (talk) 01:21, 31 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hiroshige, New Year's Eve Foxfires at the Changing Tree, Oji, 1857
Hello! Thank you for the new years wishes. The Epiphany is a special day in so many ways. I'll keep watching for your most recent pix. Congrats on the two new DYKs, they look great! I'm considering nominating a article I created on the 4th, I'm pretty sure if can come up with a hooky-hook. See Truth or Consequences Hot Springs - the name alone is interesting, and there's a lot of history there. I'm heading back out West soon, and will be visiting old friends there. Magic and light to you in the new year. In friendship, Netherzone (talk) 15:08, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Gerda,
I saw your new photos, the Gambas alla plancha is making me hungry! Were you in the Canary Islands (a place I've always wanted to go)? Netherzone (talk) 23:50, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am so glad to hear that his DYK ran while he was still alive. He sounds like a remarkable person, who must have been a wonderful friend. Ten years of Precious - so many people have been touched by these gifts of kindness. I remember when you sent me a beautiful blue jewel, I was in a funk that day, because things were not going to my expectations (when will I finally learn to let go of expectations, and simply embrace events and awareness from moment to moment? - it takes a lifetime I guess.) - Thanks for posting the pix, esp from the Canary Islands. They are now on my "bucket list"! Warm weather and the sound of the ocean sounds divine. Yesterday we got a big blizzard here - I've been shoveling snow for two days. Sending you good cheer, Gerda. Netherzone (talk) 22:43, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You probably know I work on New Page review. Sometimes I get stuck and I'm not sure if I should mark an article as patrolled, tag it with maintenance tags or nominate it for deletion. (NPP is really just triage). I think you're a very competent editor, and I value your judgement. Would you be able to take a look at Martin Höfer, and let me know what you think? Thanks, Vexations (talk) 21:54, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, Vexations I'll have a look momentarily. Please don't hesitate to ask again if you need help, I'm happy to assist. There have been times I considered learning more about how the New Page review process works, and wondered if I might enjoy doing some work in that area. Netherzone (talk) 21:59, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello again Vexations - It's crystal clear it's an autobiography. It needs serious pruning of puffery, jargon, name-dropping, excessive detail/original research and primary sources. I'll start doing some trimming to be able to see how much is worth keeping; the rest should go to his personal website. Netherzone (talk) 22:26, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Drmies I saw you were also working on trimming the Martin Höfer article. I am beginning to wonder if it might be a hoax. The vast lions share of the sourcing is to he-and-his father's gallery/publishing house/business FAKT. None of the collections listed on his website verifiable, most of the exhibitions can't be verified. The article sourcing by other authors that "seemed" independent have ISBNs directed to the Hofer publishing house FAKT; some sources don't mention him at all. Then there is this interview: [1] - I'm not fluent in German, but I think it basically says that he and his father are in the business of marketing artworks through investment funds. Q. Art as in an investment pool, artists running a financial company: isn't that like fire and water?
A. Exactly this connection is an immense advantage and our unique selling point. On the one hand, we see the art market as a financial market, but at the same time we use its opportunities to promote artists. We support the artists in our pool in such a way that they rise in the ArtFacts ranking. In this way we increase the value of your works of art. Then there is this (faux?) article written by his PR agent, Katja Schubach.[2] Do these patterns seem strange to you or am I being too skeptical and not assuming good faith? Netherzone (talk) 01:47, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @Netherzone, please have a look on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people#Turkish_and_Tatar_Y-DNA_genes_of_the_Muslim_Roma699
the source behind them, says nothing about turkish or tatar Y-DNA in muslim roma, the source says also nothing that muslim romani woman got children from turks or tatars men etc., the source says only about Genetic impacts of the Ottoman occupiers to the Host population to Romani people and Non Romani people, in this parts who once belongend to the ottoman empire.
That's why I wanted to correct it but I can't. You know I'am blocked from editing the Romani Article. But If you read the source, you can understand what I mean, and fix it. Thanky
--Nalanidil (talk) 13:12, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Nalanidil, I'm sorry, but WP:BLOCKEVASION states that "editors are not permitted to post or edit material at the direction of a blocked editor" as that is considered "proxy editing" or meat puppetry. I'd suggest just leaving the article alone. I also want to gently remind you that I had asked that you not post on my talk page, but rather use the article talk pages instead. I'd appreciate it if you would respect those wishes. Netherzone (talk) 15:07, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
LOL, @Netherzone, but you wrote and post allways on my talk page, isnt it strange?
Who are you that you do that it?
Well you didnt understand english, yet i see, because your answer have nothing to do with that what i have written.
Well then...but also I please you...do not wrote or post on my talk page again, as you have did several times ok? vice versa...#
Nalanidil (talk) 15:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please remove the ad hominim attack towards me that you have placed on your user page WP:NPA. You are asking me to help you circumnavigate your block, and I respectfully declined. Now you are resorting to personal attacks again, STOP. All I have ever asked of you is to follow WP policies and guidelines. I ask you now that you do not contact me again. Netherzone (talk) 17:39, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I didnt ask you for unblock about editing the romani people article, i asked you that you should read the source and see what is written in the romani page doesnt hold water. This was ALL what i told you. But you cant understand my english, your answers is allways out of that, what i wrote !. Anyway you and some other users, are the reason that I left the english wikipedia. Now you ALL can be happy !
sincerely: Nalanidil (talk) 23:11, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@JakubDeWisniewski thank you for your message and for reaching out. I'm busy today, and it will take me a day or two to research these artists and look into the sourcing and also to see what else might be found. But I will get to it. Sometimes there is content that is not included in the article that could support it, and sometimes an article is filled with fluff and weak sourcing. That is why editors are asked to do a WP:BEFORE search before nominating (or !voting) on an AfD. Wikipedia's criteria for notability for artists can be found here: WP:NARTIST and WP:GNG. For info on what constitutes "reliable sources" see WP:RS, and for what is meant by significant coverage, see WP:SIGCOV. Hope that's helpful info for you in the meantime, and hope you enjoy your time here. WP is a remarkable place! Netherzone (talk) 16:14, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@JakubDeWisniewski - This morning I went through both articles' sourcing, as well as an independent online search for each artist. I think Ewa Doroszenko is closer to meeting WP criteria for NARTIST and GNG, as her work is included in the two permanent collections. (I've added these to the article along with citations to the collected works). However, I'm not that certain of the notability of the two institutions, as my knowledge of the contemporary Polish art scene is limited (I'm mostly familiar with the 90s and 2000s in contemporary Polish art), but give it the benefit of the doubt that these are credible institutions based on their websites. There also is press coverage of her work in pieces with author by-lines, which indicates that they are probably not paid placement of PR (native advertising), which is a good sign. Re: BerriBlue my personal thoughts are that it is WP:TOOSOON for this artist to have an encyclopedia entry. She is in the emerging phase of her career, and the sourcing is weak (although there are a lot of refs in the article which makes it "appear" to be substantial coverage). There are a couple good sources, but most of it consists of blog posts, pieces without author bylines (probably paid PR), and primary sources (like her own website). The article reads as a promotional piece to me, with the possibility that it might be WP:UPE. I think in a few more years if she keeps going in the direction she is, there may be enough high-quality sourcing to support an article. So, in a nutshell, at this time, I think Ewa is notable, but BeriBlue is not. Hope these analyses are helpful to you, but keep in my that they don't reflect the community consensus (they are my policy-based opinions) - if you want to gain the feedback of the community, you could try posting on the talk pages of the respective articles, or WP:WikiProject Poland, or take either or both to AfD for the community to weigh in on. Best regards, and again, welcome to WP! Netherzone (talk) 17:41, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've broadened the block, for all the reasons, including WP:NOTHERE. I considered a rangeblock on the IPs, but it's a bit wide. Still not out of the range of possibility, but protecting the article might be simpler. If he returns with another IP that the block didn't catch, we can semi the article. Feel free to ping me if this happens and I don't catch it promptly. - CorbieVreccan☊☼22:10, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. It's obvious who it is, so even without the wide range block or PP it seems manageable. Will continue to keep an eye on this and will ping you if something seems odd. Netherzone (talk) 22:14, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Today is a feast day for which Bach wrote several cantatas including Mit Fried und Freud ich fahr dahin, BWV 125, which was on DYK 10 years ago and TFA 4 years ago. I'm less happy that Georg Christoph Biller had to wait days for a Main page appearance under recent deaths, and then stayed not even for a full day. It would have been so meaningful today, with the man in the cantata saying he can depart in joy and peace. - The February pic was taken in memory last year. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:05, 2 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I saw the Bach cantata this morning on the Main page, Brava! A nice way to start a Sunday. The articles, images, friends, songs are all an outpouring of joy of life, and wonderful contributions. I've been working on improving/finishing up some of Possibly's drafts before they get deleted, and improving some of his stubs on women artists. It makes me sad as I really miss seeing him around, but it makes me feel good knowing that his good works live on here. The very best in friendship to you Gerda. I always enjoy hearing from you. Netherzone (talk) 19:43, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Snow dust on oak branchesThank you for sharing the spring flowers and music on Valentines Day! We got a light dusting of snow last night. This morning I created a short article on a woman photographer, Jacinda Russell from a draft that had been started by our late colleague Possibly a fellow Precious and Women in Red warrior who created hundreds of stubs and articles on women artist. Netherzone (talk) 20:13, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi - I just came across a page with Possibly's greyed-out signature, and have since learned of his death. I didn't really know him well - we interacted a bit on Wiki, and we exchanged a few emails over the last couple of years; while I can't claim any close association with him, I did have huge regard for his judgment and editing skills. I see that you worked with him closely however, so please accept my belated condolences for the loss of a friend and colleague. If I may, I'd like to say a couple of other things.
First, I doff my cap to the work you've been doing to finish off the drafts he'd been working on. I don't want to tread on your toes in this work or to butt in where I'm not needed/wanted, but if there's anything I can do to help please let me know. Most of my content work is on architecture and 17th C history, if that helps.
Second, and please see this as something that I thought you might like to know, rather than an attempt to put any pressure on you to do anything, but Possibly and I were spit-balling ideas (over e-mail) for potential new admins around May of last year, and he suggested that you would be an excellent candidate. Unfortunately, the conversation kind of petered out - it was one of those things I'd meant to follow up on with him but never quite got around to. I thought you should know that he held you in very high esteem, and thought that you are exactly the sort of person who ought to be running things around here. Although that discussion never really concluded properly, I feel that I owe it to him to raise it with you, and to offer you my support if it is something you ever feel like pursuing - please reach out to me if you are interested and we can discuss it. I have enough faith in his judgment to assume that you would be more than up to the job.
(talk page stalker) of a form. I followed Netherzone when we began collaborating on Possibly's drafts. Speaking for myself, but I'd say the more the merrier on working through Possibly's drafts since we all have the same goal of continuing their work. StarMississippi19:56, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks - I saw the list of drafts you put together on Possibly's talk page, is that the best thing to work from? Draft:Castle Ten Berghe jumps out as be as being something I might be able to contribute to - my Dutch isn't great, but I have a smattering, and I'm better at buildings than people - I'll start work at the weekend, unless Netherzone is already on the case and doesn't want intrusion (which I would totally understand). GirthSummit (blether)20:19, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Girth Summit and @Star Mississippi - re: Possibly's drafts and stubs...the more the merrier! Of course all editors are welcome to jump in. In addition to the drafts, Possibly left behind a legacy of stubs on interesting topics, and hundreds are on notable women artists. Look at his "Pages Created", it's mind boggling. I agree that he had excellent judgement and skills (and a great sense of humor).
Girth, I'm humbled and honored by your words. Yes Possibly and I had some convos off wiki about this around that time and although I am interested in the notion of having access to a few more tools, at that time last May I felt like administration might "take the fun out of" editing, as I was worried that WP might start feeling like a job rather than pleasure. I think I have a better understanding and sense of boundaries now. I would not mind having a conversation in another venue (email or?) to gain a deeper understanding of what's involved. I have a lot of respect for our admins here and have learned so much from them, and would like to continue to learn more. Thank you. Netherzone (talk) 21:03, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I completely understand what you mean about 'taking the fun out of editing' - it's easy to let that happen to you, and to allow the backlogs to get between you and the article you want to write. However, there is no minimum amount of admin stuff required, we're grateful for all the help we can get, so if you would be willing to help out, then I'd be very happy to talk to you about it off-wiki - please feel free to drop me an e-mail. Cheers GirthSummit (blether)21:10, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The castle for sure, but really anything that interests you. I also am going through User:Possibly#Has_potential as most of the In Progress ones have been handled. Wonder if there's something we can do around notable women artists for WHM as I alluded to below before seeing the rest of this thread. StarMississippi21:14, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
since I know you're interested in arts from our work on Possibly's drafts. Would love your eyes here if & when you have a moment. She's no brainer notable as the inaugural White House Curator, and meets GNG, but would love your art brain on it if there's anything obvious missing. I feel like she could be a fun story ahead of Women's History Month. If you don't have time/interest, no worries at all. StarMississippi21:06, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. No rush at all. I built it with enough that it will survive AfD. And yes, she does. I think I'm making a March mini project of the curators. There aren't that many and in unshocking news, the ones without bios are majority women. NOt sure they're all notable, but could be covered somewhere. StarMississippi21:23, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I will be back at some point. I had a (very incomplete) preliminary draft underway when you created the page with much better content, so I still have some material to add once I whip it into shape. Agricolae (talk)
I don't know, but with 781 of them, I doubt there was a formal naming process beyond the descriptions he gives to each in the prospectus. Agricolae (talk) 01:02, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Agricolae, I think this new article would make an interesting DYK. I'm thinking about using Ostrich Running as an image and this as a hook:
Did you know...that the 19th century photographer Eadweard Muybridge created over 100,000 images for his study Animal Locomotion that included ostriches and capybara?
Yeah, go for it. This is the kind of thing DYK likes. Your choice on listing me or not. (I generally don't bother with any of this Wiki-community stuff myself, having had bad experiences too many times).
There is one thing that should probably be done before going in with this tag line. DYK needs the tag line to contain information found in the article, and cited there. While only appearing as an image might slide through, it would probably be better to throw mention of the ostrich into the text among the unusual species, but either way, it needs a citation.
There are a few other areas for improvement that come to mind, though they probably don't have to be resolved before going in:
The first is that my section does not mesh as well as it could with yours, there being perhaps too much duplication in discussing the subjects of his study between the Commission and Content sections (e.g. his use of humans and animals is mentioned in both Commission paragraphs as well as the Content paragraph). However, I haven't thought of a good way to reorganize things without leaving one part or another short of context, and it is not too bad as it is.
Second, I am not in love with the listing of archives that hold items from the collection. The Muybridge archive is probably worthy of specific mention because of its direct link to the creator, but the remaining list seems arbitrary, based on just what online catalogs happened to turn up (if I'm not mistaken) when searching from Capybara Walking. The Huxley-Parlour cite I just added says the material is held by more than 90 institutions, and gives a list of noteworthy holding institutions that seems more diverse and shares only one member in common with our list (though I am hesitant to use it as a basis, because it is potentially coming into making the list with a bias itself, but at least it is an idnependent source making the determination on which holders are noteworthy).
Third, there is probably something to be said about the fact that these works regularly feature in the exibits of major museums and galleries, internationally. I am finding frequent mention of either special or permanent exhibitions (e.g. the Tate, Huxley-Parlour, and NPR references already in article, for example), so this aspect of reception as art (and also as natural history) probably merits mention. Again, though, we want to be careful and not have it be just based on their own material to indicate that their exhibit is noteworthy. Huxley-Parlour may come to the rescue again, as in addition to documenting their own exhibit (non-independent so problematic) it includes a list of some institutions that have recently exhibited the work. Agricolae (talk) 00:04, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for these suggestions! I went forward with the DYK nom this morning, as I think the DYK will be of interest to our general readership. The article is in pretty good shape, and am grateful for your help. I added you as one of the creators, if you are opposed to that just let me know and I will remove your name.
I like your idea to expand the reception section since these works have been widely exhibited internationally and sources exist.
Re: the Huxley-Parlour citation, generally we do not use commercial galleries as reliable sources for certain types of information because commercial galleries are in the business to make sales. Therefore not an independent source. No doubt it's correct that images from the Animal Locomotion series are held in more than 90 institutional collections, but a better source would be an art history book or academic journal article, or even a museum since they are educational institutions rather than a merchant. Netherzone (talk) 19:09, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Agricolae, hmmm..... I've never had a weird experience before re: DYK, but you had mentioned that you did. The article went up today on the main page, and immediately a campaign was started to change the title, shortening it from Muybridge's actual title for his art/science commission and published portfolio, to something that is more "concise" per 'Pedia-isms. I'm flummoxed how the title of an artist's work can be "updated" by editors in another century because they believe the artist's original title does not conform to their version of what they think the artist should have titled the work. It is perplexing. Netherzone (talk) 00:45, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Gerda! Thank you for this, what a terrific duo of articles. I'm so impressed with the Ukrainian singer, pianist, organist, conductor, composer and academic teacher - and the photo of her is wonderful. Beautiful work, my friend. Happy March! Netherzone (talk) 08:28, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I saw that this morning when I checked the main page! Congratulations on your contributions, Gerda, bringing music into the daily lives of our readers! Happy spring... Netherzone (talk) 16:21, 25 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Anomalocaris, Hello! I reverted your good faith edit because it restored the unsourced resume-like list of shows. The main problem remaining is that the shows and collections are completely unsourced. He's obviously notable, however the article was promotional and not in compliance with MOS. I agree that it can be improved. Netherzone (talk) 05:26, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello again, the Bibliography section is sourced to Amazon to buy/sell books using embedded external URLs. This is non-standard formatting and the links to Amazon sales is WP:PROMO. I will be removing the Amazon links. If reliable sources can be found those should be added instead. Netherzone (talk) 05:40, 13 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
DYK for Animal Locomotion: An Electro-photographic Investigation of Consecutive Phases of Animal Movements
It would be easy to let things get deleted, and it's work to improve articles in a rush to keep them, but you are doing it, and it's improving Wikipedia and so I award you the (completely made up) rescue helicopter badge CT55555 (talk) 13:19, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks so much! Not everything belongs on Wikipedia, but when I find something that can be improved and may be of interest to our readership, I tend to jump in if I have the time. So nice to meet you here! Netherzone (talk) 13:33, 28 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the flowers, Gerda! The daffodils and forsythia are blooming in my garden, and the helebore still have flowers which last soooo long! This week I've sown seeds for herbs and lettuces. There is nothing like a freshly picked salad! Congrats, as always, on your recent DYKs, and thank you for the heads up about the Pink Floyd video to support Ukraine! I really enjoyed watching that. Pray for peace. Be well my friend! Netherzone (talk) 19:58, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Muscari naturalized in a NYC gardenGerda, some grape hyacinth for you! They have naturalized in my tiny urban garden, and bring such joy each spring. First yellow flowers, then purple mark spring here. In good cheer, Netherzone (talk) 03:32, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yes I will definitely give it a listen when I come back from my walk today! Thank you dear! Re: vibrancy - this pink azalea delights me every year and it just keeps getting more and more superabundant as the years go by. I mulch the soil beneath it with the dried flowers (that I shake off), and I think this may be the secret to its supreme health. There is another azalea in my garden, with violet-colored flowers. Depending on the light they sometimes look red-violet, sometimes blue-violet and sometimes magenta. Glorious! I am thankful for such beauty in the world. Netherzone (talk) 16:23, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Lilacs, azaleas and bleeding hearts (Lamprocapnos) in an urban garden
May is triple purple/violet month - lilacs, red violet azaleas and bleeding hearts all blooming together! The violets are blooming too, but I couldn't get them in the photo. Netherzone (talk) 19:52, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
May flowers in my little urban garden - wood hyacinth, purple iris, magenta clematis, and pink coral bells. Of course I think Ladislaja Harnoncourt should have an article, not just her sons. I'll see if I can find anything more out there to improve the article, or even an historical image. I'm reminded of a project on my "To Do" list, which is to start a list of Native American matriarch potters, women who passed down their craft and techniques to multiple generations. Some info on a few of them (who already have articles) HERE. The lineage and descendants of these women are fascinating, and there are many more... Ever onward! Netherzone (talk) 12:49, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Cactus in Huntington Library Botanical Garden, California Thank you for sharing your newest creations. I was recently in California visiting an old friend. We went to the Huntington Library Art Gallery and Botanical Gardens, the Desert Garden was most impressive as was the Japanese Garden and bonsai collection. Here is a photo of an impressive and unusual cactus, I'm still working on positively identifying it; it's two distinct growth patterns are fascinating. Netherzone (talk) 15:37, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, about external links, is it ok to link to foreign language wikipedia pages? For example, for the Langstrup belt plate there's a wikipedia page in Danish but not one in English. That's why I linked to the Danish National Museum page instead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ario1234 (talk • contribs) 21:24, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, my edit to the Utopian socialism page had been removed on you request due to being improperly referenced. Could you please tell me what I need to do to reference it? The page Neo-utopian socialism, which I have not been able to create yet, is the original source of the philosophy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheUtopiaProject.Neet (talk • contribs) 01:56, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your message TheUtopiaProject.Neet - you found my talk page on your first day – Hello! Glad to hear you saw No Original Research, that's important, but my message to you was more about adding content without adding a citation as a reference in a reliable, verifiable, independent source to back up the content. That's how things work on WP - article content needs to be referenced. Here's a link to info on citing sources: WP:CS. It takes a while to learn how things work here in this awesome collaborative project. Welcome! Netherzone (talk) 02:26, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please do aid me, when creating WP:DOE aka the 'cheat book' after I named it DOE, for some reason that I can’t really recollect I felt an overwhelming urge to name it WP:UPEBULLSEYE, I’m not so sure now, but since you have done the honors of naming almost all my essays did you ever suggest the name UPEBULLSEYE to me? Celestina007 (talk) 02:32, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Celestina, I can't recall coming up with UPEBULLSEYE, I'll bet you did! DOE is good too. I might have suggested WP:DUPE which is a double entendre, but it currently redirects for some reason to Proposed Article Mergers. Death of undisclosed paid editing would be a better target for DUPE, IMO. Netherzone (talk) 03:18, 11 April 2022 (UTC) Courtesy ping Celestina007Netherzone (talk) 03:18, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Celestina007, I wonder if there is a process to usurp WP:DUPE, the way one can usurp an unused user-name. Or a procedure like RfC to get community feedback on redirecting to a new target? Netherzone (talk) 13:44, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I did a little more investigation, and WP:DUPE is a redirect with zero page views - see here: [4] so it seems unused. I am wondering if a query at Redirects for Discussion WP:RfD might be worth persuing. Netherzone (talk) 15:31, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You are indeed apt but I literally do not think I have the stamina for that unfortunately, All of a sudden I have developed high blood pressure, this was like a month ago or less when my personal doctor spotted I was hypertensive, 152/113 is my current reading as of today, what this is doing to me is that it is draining my energy, I have a terrible migraine and I’m always fatigued thus the reason I can’t undergo anything extremely mentally draining, it exacerbates the migraine, prior now I didn’t have the aforementioned symptoms but now it is getting worse. Celestina007 (talk) 21:53, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Celestina007 ugh, that sounds unpleasant - it is so frustrating when ones energy is drained, it affects all the systems in the body. Be well and listen to your inner voice. Breathe.... Savasana.... Netherzone (talk) 22:03, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks NZ, I’m currently laying on a sofa, I intend to relax and enjoy editing, conversing with my friends (You) and doing rather simpler things for now, did you just say savasana? Did you study under a sadhguru? or dabble in oriental(Indian) mysticism? the savasana (शवासन) is the last pose done in Indian mysticism it is also called the pose of death it is usually done after reciting the OM mantra 108 times, I’m so amazed right now! Celestina007 (talk) 22:17, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
...like a fresh start, complete system reboot! Hope you feel better today with no migraine. Savasana may help with the blood pressure. Netherzone (talk) 12:55, 12 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi! If you have the time/interest, mind a look at this with your nose for artists? No worries if not. He seems borderline NARTIST, but sourcing independent of his galleries is thin. Any suggestions on where to look? Thanks either way StarMississippi16:28, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello! I took a quick look at the draft, and did a quick online search. I was able to verify three collections: Ogden Museum, Brooks Museum and Louisiana Stae Collection which would put him over the bar of WP:NARTIST. Regarding the current state of the draft, it seems to be written from the point of view of his gallery, which isn't great because it may seem a bit promotional. Some of the current sourcing is weak, either user submitted such as AskArt ("submit your bio" pay to play) or simple name checks that do not count towards GNG. I have a question for you, do you know if the Mississippi Encyclopedia a reliable source, or is it like Wikipedia? I'm not familiar with it, but they seem to have a substantial editorial board.[5] If it is RS, then I think that might also pass WP:ANYBIO. I think the draft can be moved to mainspace and would survive AfD. I'm about to head out for a walk before it possibly rains, but can do a little work on it later this afternoon. Netherzone (talk) 16:58, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, as always. What I know re: Mississippi Encyclopedia from other searches and some coverage is it's a hybrid and very much depends on who has written a particular article. It's not ideal in and of itself other than for non controversial information, but their better articles show their work. In this case, the Rector article is written by Patti Carr Black who has some subject-matter expertise as a published author and former director of Jackson's Old Capitol Museum so I'd think it would be usable. I can see the section on Rector, but it's the same rehash of the corporate collections and it's unclear where that information itself is coming from. Good to know this is worthy of continued digging. Enjoy your walk! I should do she same. StarMississippi17:48, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Star Mississippi I've cleaned up the Rector draft adding verifiable citations for three collections, and removing the promotional/advertorial tone. I was wondering if you could have a look at this draft: Draft:Alan Shields. I was helping a new editor who seemed to have lost interest with it after it was declined. Shields is a very well known artist! I've added many citations, so the collections and exhibitions are now referenced. If it looks good to you would you mind moving it to article space? I don't think I have permissions to move drafts to main space. Thanks in advance! Netherzone (talk) 20:55, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the delay, I finally went out and jumped in a few puddles. Nothing better than being outside in spring especially when rain drowned the pollen. Off to look at the draft now and I'm sure I'll be moving it. You definitely have the experience to be a draft reviewer. I can't recall what hoops that permission requires jumping through,but let me know if you want me to look into it on your behalf. StarMississippi01:17, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Accepted. He's definitely notable, as you well knew. If an interest in BUcky Fuller brought you to Shields, you might find this article a fun read. Ms. Burstyn hosted a talkback after a screening of House of Tomorrow and it was such a delight to learn more about Fuller. Thanks again on Rector. Definitely learning a lot more about art sourcing. StarMississippi01:26, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Glad you jumped in some puddles! My walk was long and much needed, and I got caught in the rain which was really refreshing. I am SO glad it's Spring. Thank you for moving Alan Shields to article space. I answered your question about studio/loft/home on the article talk page, and will look into the sources to try to disentangle the ambiguity. Ooh, the Burstyn-Bucky Fuller NYT article looks interesting, looking forward to reading it. If you find a moment to look into draft reviewer perms I'd appreciate that. I think I can help out with the backlog, and would communicate and seek advice if I was unsure about a draft. Netherzone (talk) 01:40, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Something about the rain that makes us all kids again, especially in this complex world we're living in. I came home so muddy and loved it.
Had a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Participants and you definitely meet all the criteria and then some. It looks like you just need to make an edit request to get approved. You'll find the AfC reviewers to be a helpful lot as they know more reviewers, less "work" all around. Timtrent and Robert McClenon specifically have been fonts of advice as I learned the ropes. And yes, figured studio question was better for the Talk as other editors interested in Shields might have input. StarMississippi13:26, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry if this is not the right way to get in contact with you regarding the other drafts I'm working on! The ones that I think are you may be interested in Jusaburō Tsujimura a Japanese puppeteer, puppet maker and dollmaker, Sal Salandra, an American needlepoint artist, and Sara Penn, an American gallerist, fashion designer, and curator. I realize these might not be directly in line with your interests, but if you see any that you find interesting let me know! I want to thank you again for your help with my Alan Shields article, I'm really happy it got published! Chainsawpunk (talk) 18:45, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Chainsawpunk. This is definitely a good way to reach editors. You'll see it was my conversation with @Netherzone just above that led to the Alan Shields article move. If it's a question that is more about the content, such as my loft/studio question, you may want to put it on Draft_talk:Jusaburō_Tsujimura, for example. Look forward to working with you. StarMississippi20:28, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello! This is a fine place to communicate. As @Star Mississippi mentions, for things specific to the individual drafts we can use the associated talk pages. I've watch listed all three and will have a read thru in the next few days. @Chainsawpunk, congratulations on your first article! A job well done. I looked for a free image of his work, but couldn't find one. But I did add a historical portrait under a fair-use license. I'm not sure about the rules for fair-use for works of art, StarM, would you happen to know? If not, I'll ask around, perhaps on the WikiProject Visual Arts talk page. ChainsawP, do you know about WikiProjects? They are a good way to join together with other editors with common interests, or to get topic-related feedback from others. More info can be found here: [Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory]. Hope you enjoy your time here, it's an amazing community. Netherzone (talk) 22:53, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Good timing. I just happened to be on Faith_Ringgold and noticed we have a fair use image there so I would think it would be OK. I'm not an expertise in images so would definitely want that verified from one of arts-related projects. Possible too someone at WP:GLAM would know. @Chainsawpunk, GLAM is a collaboration of edits and editors working on museums, galleries and other cultural organizations and there are some very knowledgeable editors there too. In short, you'll find a welcoming community and folks are happy to answer questions or help find it. Welcome to this fun habit. StarMississippi02:38, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello! I am trying to add some photos to my new articles, and wanted to ask how you went about finding the portrait of Alan Shields that you added to my article. Is there a specific website to look for license free images? I've been consistently wrong when I've uploaded pictures. Chainsawpunk (talk) 16:21, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Chainsawpunk The portrait image I uploaded was not copyright free, however it was uploaded to Wikipedia within the fair use licensing and specifications for a "historical portrait of a deceased person". The image rules are incredibly confusing and complicated, but that is something I do know how to do. Here is my collection of image sourcing links, you may find some of them useful. Whenever I learn something about images, I try to copy the info to a sub-user page so I can refer to it.
Do not upload fair use files to Commons (as MarchJuly reminded us) - upload it directly to WP. There should be a link on the left side of the screen that says "Upload File". If you have trouble finding that link here is the direct link to Wikipedia:File Upload Wizard.
If you have trouble figuring it out the uploading and licensing, you can post a link to the image here or on an article talk page (ping me) , or email it to me (click on email this user) and I may be able to help out. Netherzone (talk) 19:38, 24 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to bother again, but I was wondering if you can help me understand something (or point me to the relevant place where I can read the policy): I thought it may be a good idea for me to try to improve some already existing articles in order to better familiarize myself with tone of voice and structure of WP articles and better my research skills. To that end, I did a little of work on Patricia Urquiola, and in doing so I noticed it's a tagged with a "multiple issues" template. So I had two questions:
First, at one point does that tag get removed or who gets to do so? Can I go ahead delete it now that I have added more citations?
Second, is there a central database where I can find other articles that need to be improved (Ideally centered on [female] designers or artist) if I want to continue to practice?
@SleepyWhippet, hello! You are not bothering me - if I don't respond immediately to messages, it's usually because I'm busy in "real life".
To answer your questions, Re: Patricia Urquiola, it's really best for an uninvolved editor to remove maintenance tags, I'm happy to do that after I review the citations. She is obviously notable by way of the museum collections. So she meets WP:NARTIST and the article will not be deleted, The sources could be improved by adding citations in independent reliable sources have written about her - that way she will also meet WP:GNG our general notability requirement.
As to finding other articles you can improve, you may want to join Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red, there is a lot of information on their main page, including "redlists" [[13]] for women who don't have articles yet. If you start an article on one of these women, I'd suggest choosing those that already have citations on their entry, that will help with choosing women who are already likely notable.
Don't be discouraged if your edits or creations are reverted or deleted. It happens to all of us, and it is never personal. WP has guidelines and policies that govern notability that were determined through consensus over a period of years. Keep asking questions, here or at the WP:TEAHOUSE, or WP:HELPDESK or the talk page of Women in Red WT:WIR. Best regards and happy editing. Netherzone (talk) 00:40, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Netherzone thanks, I joined Women in Red and will read through the project pages.
I have to say tho, in the process of joining the project, I went over to Commons to pick a profile photo, and somehow ended up in a rabbit hole about this image series and its various deletion discussions over the years (NSFW)-- somewhat disheartening to see how rules can be cherry picked and disingenuously applied to serve/amuse a few seemingly "powerful" wikipedians -- I know this is completely off topic, but it just feels like such stark demonstration of the diff between what we would may find sensible in the real world vs. wikipedia consensus -- that content is obviously misogynistic by any objective standard and shouldn't have a place on WP.., not in 2022, In fact I wonder how many of the commentators from 2012 would still make the same argument today. But sadly it seems like because "it was extensively discussed" at some point, now it's enshrined and staying forever. anyway I digress.., I think I should just stay focused and not veer too far off what I meant to do here so as not to get distracted with side issues, of which there seems to be alot! SleepyWhippet (talk) 01:46, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have any interest in the list of images you linked to whatsoever, so I will not comment on that. To my way of thinking the rules, guidelines and policies are neutral and that WP is an ever-evolving work in progress. Sorry to hear that you have had negative experiences. Hope things go better for you in the future! Netherzone (talk) 02:00, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Netherzone I'm sorry too, I really didn't mean to be lurid, or derisive of the whole organization. I know it may not sound like it, but I really don't have an axe to grind, and genuinely am trying to stay positive and try in my tiny way to do some good... It's almost comically absurd that I went from being excited to join Women in Red, to immediately coming across something I never thought would be here.., then thinking "Oh, I have now learned a few things, so I can help by nominating this for deletion".., only to realize, inexplicably that's not possible and anyone who's tried has gotten attacked. It's as coincidental and innocent as that. I guess I was just processing the sort of "whiplash" of it and I don't have anyone to talk to about this IRL, hence my impertinence on your talk page, I apologize. Have a lovely rest of your evening (day?). SleepyWhippet (talk) 03:26, 27 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for pointing out possible COI re my writing a new piece for environmental art -, I'm wondering though - how we wikipedia editors can on the one hand avoid COI yet at the other avoid northern hemisphere, cultural and even race bias? The work of art I and other did in 1978 has very deep connections to the formation of the world's first green party, in NZ and in Germany and the cabbage Patch fits directly into that. I'm more than happy to connect you and others with the founder of that world's first green party if you need further authentication.
Is it not our job, and wikipedia's job to get things correct, fair, balanced and truthful?
Dear Barry B'art homme, Wikipedia is not the correct venue to promote yourself. Please use social media or your own personal website to do so. WP policies and guidelines exist for a reason, and were drafted through the consensus of many diverse editors over time. The first pillar of WP is that "Wikipedia is not a soapbox, an advertising platform, a vanity press..." The second pillar is that "WP is written from a neutral point of view. Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong on Wikipedia." Please read and understand WP:COI and stop directly editing any articles about you or your projects. Use the "edit request" feature instead. As important as you may personally believe it is to share your work with our readership, you need to stop adding promotional material about yourself to articles, otherwise it could put you at risk for losing your editing privileges. I will be archiving this thread shortly, if you wish to continue this conversation, please use your own talk page, and I will respond there. Thank you. Netherzone (talk) 02:50, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes we get that thank you. Here's the rub. I don't know you. There is apparently no vested, personal interest between us. You are a wikipedia editor. You now know the facts of a very good many highly reputable sources who have written about the Vacant Lot of Cabbages 1978. I can now leave it in yours and wikipedia's moral ethics to decided whether - just because it was not in New York yet it was 4 years ahead of New York environmental art - whether that was notable... for art history? I'd imagine being a long way first is seriously notable... wouldn't you?
I'm not remotely interested in self promotion - but I seriously hope you're interested in facts. b'art homme 05:19, 6 June 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by B'art homme (talk • contribs)
Ukrainian peace music is "on" today, with the conductor! - Pentecost (on last Sunday and Monday in Germany) brought a rich harvest of great music in two church services (one with me singing in choir) and two concerts with my brother in the orchestra, - four pictures I took besides the symphonic one. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:52, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How wonderful, and sending thank you to all these musical wonders - the singers, the conductor, and the audience who have the pleasure of in-the-moment listening/hearing. And to you in the choir Gerda, Brava!!! And to your brother's contributions! Superb! I've returned from a wonderful trip to the American Southwest, one of my favorite places on the planet! My little urban garden is overgrown with weeds, but the tomatoes, peppers, lettuces and herbs made it through 3 weeks of being ignored and unwatered. It just goes to show how abundant the earth can be even in the city! Netherzone (talk) 21:16, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I found the sweet young deer in Ehrenbach! I wasn't sure at first where to look in all of your images, calendar pix & DYKs, but I found it. :) Netherzone (talk) 21:58, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(I said "last row", but sorry, I gave you the wrong date ...) - today: a song about getting through the night, after plenty of music over the weekend, a few more rows ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:34, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Happy birthday to Claus, and good to know about the Rheingau Musik Festival. Last week I went for a hike up at Ghost Ranch in Abiquiu - have you ever been there? I think it must be one of the most beautiful places on the planet. Here is a photo of light playing on the red and yellow rock formations in the late afternoon. Netherzone (talk) 16:51, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've seen you editing recently and you seem like an experienced Wikipedia editor.
Would you please consider applying to become a New Page Reviewer? Reviewing/patrolling a page doesn't take much time but it requires a good understanding of Wikipedia policies and guidelines; currently Wikipedia needs experienced users at this task. But kindly read the tutorial before making your decision. Thanks. MB04:05, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @MB, thank you for the notification. I've been thinking about becoming a NPR for some time now. I've been active at AfD for years, have created over 150 articles and have a good understanding of notability criteria. My question for you is whether or not the NPP School is mandatory. I don't have the time in real life to go thru the schooling -- is the tutorial sufficient training? Netherzone (talk) 14:29, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not mandatory at all. It says in the first intro paragraph that it is a supplement to the tutorial for those who need it. MB14:53, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Netherzone. Your account has been added to the "New page reviewers" user group. Please check back at WP:PERM in case your user right is time limited or probationary. This user group allows you to review new pages through the Curation system and mark them as patrolled, tag them for maintenance issues, or nominate them for deletion. The list of articles awaiting review is located at the New Pages Feed. New page reviewing is vital to maintaining the integrity of the encyclopedia. If you have not already done so, you must read the tutorial at New Pages Review, the linked guides and essays, and fully understand the deletion policy. If you need any help or want to discuss the process, you are welcome to use the new page reviewer talk page. In addition, please remember:
Be nice to new editors. They are usually not aware that they are doing anything wrong. Do make use of the message feature when tagging pages for maintenance so that they are aware.
You will frequently be asked by users to explain why their page is being deleted. Please be formal and polite in your approach to them – even if they are not.
If you are not sure what to do with a page, don't review it – just leave it for another reviewer.
Accuracy is more important than speed. Take your time to patrol each page. Use the message feature to communicate with article creators and offer advice as much as possible.
The reviewer right does not change your status or how you can edit articles. If you no longer want this user right, you also may ask any administrator to remove it for you at any time. In cases of abuse or persistent inaccuracy of reviewing, or long-term inactivity, the right may be withdrawn at administrator discretion. – Joe (talk) 13:03, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The page curation tool seems unhappy for some reason – I noticed that despite your nomination, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Steve Brewer has not been created. I've encountered a few bugs with the tool and deletion nominations (maybe some have been fixed, though?), so I generally do AfD nominations via Twinkle as a workaround. Just a friendly heads-up. ComplexRational (talk) 17:28, 3 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@ComplexRational hello! and thanks for your message. I noticed this same glitch yesterday, when I AfD'd an article using the Curation Tool, although another kind editor came along and resolved it. I had thought about using Twinkle (my usual choice) but as a new-NPPatroller, I wasn't sure if it was a bug in the tool or something I did incorrectly. Moving forward, I'll continue to use Twinkle. Have a good rest of your day, and thanks again. Netherzone (talk) 17:37, 3 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Netherzone. I am just letting you know that I contested the speedy deletion of Reality Check Tour, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: The article makes a credible assertion of importance or significance, sufficient to pass A7. Thank you. BangJan199914:59, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for letting me know. That is curious, as the only source is to the artist themself (actually the artist's ticket selling website), and the vast majority of the tour has not even happened yet.
BTW, the article was created by a blocked editor who creates promotional articles which are sometimes sourced to links like "buy your tickets here", for example this tour article does not even start for another month and a half: To the Moon World Tour. I'm not disagreeing with your action and assume you are correct that A7 was not the right rationalle, but just sayin'. Netherzone (talk) 15:30, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Gerda, as always for bringing sunshine, songs and flowers. That's a beautiful image of Alchemilla (the little alchemist) after the rain. As you know I like to write on somewhat obscure topics; yesterday I wrote a short article on a ditch. But a very famous irrigation ditch! The humble Acequia Madre (Mother Ditch) of Santa Fe has brought water to fields and gardens and fruit trees in a very old part of the city since at least 1610. I walked the entire length of the ditch on Sunday, making many photographs as I walked. Enjoy your day, I love receiving your nature and food photos and of course the music! Netherzone (talk) 17:52, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Plum tomato (with a smile) from an urban garden Thank you for the July songs, Gerda Arendt! Here is a image of some Plum tomatos with a smile for you, fresh from my tiny urban garden. Hope August brings an abundance of music, food your way. Enjoy your time in nature, walking, hiking, biking! Netherzone (talk) 17:57, 31 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Use the article talk pages to propose changes before making sweeping factual changes to content and statistics. Information you are changing does not align with what the sources are saying, and you have removed sources on numerous articles. Please stop your disruptive editing. Thank you . Netherzone (talk) 02:24, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That still doesnt change the fact its already been vandalised all I did was correct it yet your not fixing the issue. LionAjk (talk) 02:25, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I will look into this tomorrow, and I want to re-read the citations, and it is getting late here. Shall we agree to use the article talk page since it seems the disruption on this article is historic? Netherzone (talk) 02:52, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, I must ask why you made this edit:[14], and this edi:[15] changing statistics in these two articles by a hundred-fold?
Secondly, LionAjk the diff you provided (12 September 2021 at 15:53 by Nalanidil) does not seem like vandalism to me. Are you sure this is the correct diff, and if so, please explain why you think it is vandalism. Thank you, Netherzone (talk) 18:48, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well now he does ;-). FYI, I’m pretty sure this guy is a sock puppet. Look at his early editing history: posting warnings and making reverts since day one. Does he look familiar?—Ermenrich (talk) 12:39, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Stop with the unsubstantiated smears Ermenrich. I am not. Stop lying about my edits also.
Please do not use my talk page as a battleground. Whatever issues the two of you have with one another should be taken to the appropriate notice board. Thank you. Netherzone (talk) 15:45, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello WomenArtistUpdates when I first saw the AfD and it was obvious it would not survive, so I merged a sentence or two added his name and a citation to the Micro-Miniatures article. I'm vacationing now, but in the next couple days will see what else (if anything) could be merged. He is one of numerous artists around the world who works in this fashion, so I want to be cognizant not to give one more weight than others. Thank you for the heads up! Netherzone (talk) 01:16, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Valles Grande Caldera, a dormant volcano caldera in the Jemez Mountains, Northern New Mexico
I posted a note on the Micro-miniatures article. I think the merge is complete, unless someone calls for a deletion review. We may want to wait a couple weeks before removing the tags in case any other editors want to weigh in on the merge. Netherzone (talk) 16:03, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are many wonders in the Jemez Springs area, including many hot springs and the Soda Dam, and nearby Bandelier National Monument's cliff dwellings. This is not my photo of the cliff dwellings, and it's been many years since I've been to Bandelier, but the next time I'm in New Mexico, it's at the top of my bucket list. Hope you make it out this way before too long! Bandelier Cliff Dwelling FeaturesNetherzone (talk) 01:25, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
ooh didn't realize Jemez Springs was so (relatively) close to Bandelier. Next time. It's hard to get a good photo of Bandelier, the sun washes it out too well. Amazing to have so verdant a landscape so close. StarMississippi02:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is the greenest I've seen Northern New Mexico in all the years I've been visiting. It's been a real Monsoon Season summer, the best in a long time! Late afternoon thundershowers, and some real rainstorms. The rain is much needed, when it rains everyone is happy dancing! Netherzone (talk) 03:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for uploading File:Jack Ferver in 2016.jpg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).
I have no dog in this fight. All I'm going to say, because you reverted my edits twice is, check the article section The Cramps#Style and influences. The citations and genres are still there. They're not "deleted" because they were no longer in the infobox. It's not a POV to list what reliable sources say. In fact, it's quite the opposite of POV, it's neutral. I'm not sure why you decided to list citations twice so now there's two copies of each citation. The thing is, though, the only citation deleted was a humor book by Dave Barry and I deleted that because it's not a reliable source for a music biography. If you look at the text of the book, Barry says that Wikipedia says that, etc. I added three reliable sources for the same information cited. The whole reason why the Dave Barry book was removed as a citation is because it's basically Wikipedia citing itself, because Barry says that he read it on Wikipedia in the page cited, aside from the fact that the book is a collection of humor columns. RockabillyRaccoon (talk) 03:51, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I just noticed another issue when looking at the citations. The NPR article cited for classifying the Cramps as surf music doesn't actually say that they are a surf band. It says "The quartet took the rumbling sound of 1950s rockabilly and surf music and slowed it to a haunting crawl." That means they were influenced by surf music, not that they are a surf band. RockabillyRaccoon (talk) 04:02, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@RockabillyRaccoon, this dog has no fight in them. Nor any interest in conflict. I agree that the DB book is not the best - at all - however there are many sources out there to improve the article, and he is not the only one who considered them punk. All I'm suggesting is constructive improvement...rather than deleting sourced material regarding genre, take it to talk or find a better source, or leave it alone, and add content without removal. Neutral POV is key, which I think we agree on. We are both here to build an encyclopedia and may think differently about things, but how about if we use the Article Talk Page? Maybe there are other editors who may want to weigh in. Netherzone (talk) 04:10, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Actually if you look at the text of Dave Barry's book, he's not discussing them within the context of being punk rock, but of Wikipedia referring to them as gothabilly. I added three sources for gothabilly that didn't cite Wikipedia as a reference. RockabillyRaccoon (talk) 05:23, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@RockabillyRaccoon, glad to see you posted on the Article Talk Page, which is where I prefer the discussion to take place. The reason is so that other interested editors can contribute to the discussion since this is a collaborative project. Honestly, I couldn't give a human fly about the Dave Barry book. I don't care if it is removed, it was not I who added it in the first place. Perhaps the editor who added it will chime in on why they felt it was a strong source, and if not, it can be removed. The reason for my original revert is that you removed all the genres from the infobox without getting consensus and only left psychobilly and gothabilly as the genres which was not NPOV.. Hope that clears things up! Netherzone (talk) 15:17, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know how it wasn't NPOV when my reason was that psychobilly and gothabilly had more sources than any of the other genres cited. I literally took no opinion and just went by the number of citations. RockabillyRaccoon (talk) 07:34, 9 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@RockabillyRaccoon, I've kindly asked you twice on my talk page, once on your talk page, and twice in edit summaries to please use the ARTICLE TALK PAGE for discussion. I'm not sure why you are reluctant to do so. To directly answer your quandary above re: NPOV, you removed all the genres except Rockabilly and Gothabilly from the genres in the infobox including punk, and you removed all the categories except American psychobilly musical groups and Gothabilly groups.
Now, I admire bold editing, and it's clear you are knowledgeable and passionate about rockabilly music, and are an intelligent editor, but come on, that is not editing from a neutral point of view per WP:NPOV which is a key policy of the encyclopedia.
Drive-by genre changes and drive by category changes to an article you had barely edited in the past (except to remove punk in 2021) is not a good look. I believe you are here in good faith, however please be cognizant that this style of editing could be perceived as Genre Warrior - see WP:GWAR.
The Cramps were first described in the article as punk, rockabilly and garage rock at the very inception of the article in 2001, as you can see here: [16]. Yes, there have been some editorial disputes over the years, none of which I have been involved in, but by the time the infobox was first created ten years later in 2011, the genres were garage punk, psychobilly, punk blues, gothabilly, and the categories were American punk rock groups, Garage punk groups as well as Rockabilly and Psychobilly. Those remained fairly stable for more than ten additional years.
You claim the sources for punk and other genres aren't there or are weak in comparison; well then improve the sourcing! You certainly have the chops. Don't just improve it to support your personal POV. Deferring to a preferred genre could be viewed as original research WP:OR. Regarding the availability of reliable sources, a google search of: "The Cramps" + rockabilly, reveals 237,000 hits, where as a search of "The Cramps" + punk reveals 499,000 hits. About 200% more, so let's agree that sources are out there. A Google Books search reveals lots: [17]. There are similar results for rockabilly. Obviously not all those Google hits are going to be relevant reliable sources, but one cannot deny that The Cramps have been associated with punk from their first days playing at CBGBs. A more restrictive search of news & magazine and academic journal articles reveal some very good sources [18]. There are scores of reliable sources available. I haven't yet reviewed the edits you made to the body of the article, but if they don't comply with NPOV, they may be removed.
Dear Netherzone,
I noticed you gave some good suggestions for the article. Unfortunatly I am not native English therefore, if possible, I would like to ask you to improve a bit the same article.
Best wishes Gingeksace (talk) 00:04, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @Gingeksace, thanks for your message. You have a great user name, does it mean Ginger Sauce? (My Italian is not so good these past years.) Anyways, I'd like to ask, do you have a connection to the poet & artist Menotti Lerro? I noticed that a lot of your articles are about him and his work or activities. Just wondering.... Netherzone (talk) 00:24, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I am glad you like my nike name (I love the sound of it too...). I have not direct connection with the author, but I am trying to stoudy his work closely because I think it is pretty nice.
I also worked on many other articles not related to this author as for instance Corrado Govoni and other I do not remember now... But I enjoyed to concentrate on Lerro because his opera is very strong and large...
I love poetry a lot and in particular good contemporarary poems...
@Gingeksace I cleaned up the promotional YouTube external links in several of your articles in the External Links section. I will have a deeper look soon, but for now I must say goodnight. Netherzone (talk) 01:46, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very mych for now. I thought it was possible to put youtube links in the external sections of the articles...
Sorry about it.
Hope you had a nice night and will have a nice day.
Hello @Gingeksace, I looked over some of your more recent contributions, and while your contributions are appreciated, it seems clear that you do in fact have a strong connection to Menotti Lerro and his various projects that you need to disclose. How is it that you have taken so many photographs of him, his work and his events going back to at least 2015? They are uploaded as your "own work". Also, how did you get licensing permission to upload his copyrighted artworks? You have also uploaded numerous newspaper articles as your own work which is a copyright violation. Pinging Praxidicae who is a very experienced editor who may be able to shed some light on these matters, if she has the time. Thank you. Netherzone (talk) 15:32, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I understand what you say... Indeed I asked the author by e-mail to use his pictures as my own work and he agreed.
I think, indeed, the opera of this author earned to be on wikipedia: so many books apprecited critically (there are monographs about him in both Italy and in UK), prizes, relevant critics writing of him on relevant magazines. International successs too.
I think we should concentrate on that and help an author that seems making a honest and strong carrier earning a position. There are two degrees, a Master of Arts and a PHD too all in literature. And teaching for years at university. Please, if I may ask, do not focus so much attention on this aspect of "own work pictures..." tHis author has so many things to say...
@Gingeksace Before concentrating on "helping" the author Menotti Lerro, and by the way, Wikipedia is not here to "help" artists/poets/authors with their careers - see WP:NOT, there are two matters to clear up. You do indeed have a WP:COI, and need to stop editing the articles directly. Instead use the edit request system WP:ER to post a message on the respective article talk pages for any changes you want. An unconnected editor will analyze the request, and either make those edits or not. You also need to disclose on your own user page that you have a COI, and list those articles. Please read WP:COI for more information.
Re: the images, Copyright Violations a serious matter. See: WP:CV and [19] for more information. I've nominated the newspaper scans and a few others for deletion. As to the images that you emailed Menotti Lerro about, was that done through the OTRS system? I don't seem to find the permissions on the image pages on Commons. Netherzone (talk) 17:09, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I meant helping to improve the page not the author--. I am sorry but your language is too tecnical for me: I am not that expert like you are... and as I have already said I am not native english too... so it is not easy to understand all the codes you told me I am violating. Hinestly I just thought I was creating some article that could be both: accepted or refused...
Anyway, I tried to say everything I could. Now If i did wrong things I am sorry, but I cannot do anything else more.
Thanks for your kindness and your help with my articles.
Hello, Gingeksace, I replied on your talk page. I realize that English is not your first language, and that you may be used to Italian Wikipedia, that has it's own rules and guidelines. If you edit here on English Wikipedia, you need to follow our guidelines. Unfortunately the little bit of Italian language fluency I had years ago I have forgotten. If you have any questions, ask at one of these links: WP:TEAHOUSE or WP:HELPDESK and an experienced editor will answer your questions. Thank you, by the way, your English is very good. Netherzone (talk) 17:33, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I wish to underline I just made a section in my user page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Gingeksace to explain I have contacted my subject Menotti Lerro to ask to use his picture. I am genuinely sorry. I did not expect it could be such a problem. Anyway... ALl the best :-(
Use the edit request system that I told you about to make suggestions on the talk page - I posted some links for you to read the correct way to proceed. You need to post short edit requests per the guidelines and instructions. As a COI editor, you should not be editing the Lerro articles yourself.
I'm happy to help when I can, but understand that I am not your employee, I am a volunteer for the encyclopedia, and like 99% of all WP editors, I have a full-time job in the real world. Netherzone (talk) 16:27, 22 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed I have not a "real" COI therefore I would be happy if you could help to remove this or work a bit on the page to sort out the issues you found...
To be honest, It seems to me too difficult to ask permission for each single little change... Therefore, if you have some little time, I would be glad of your help... (or the help of another volunteer...
Chanterelles foraged in the Rocky Mountains Some chanterelles foraged in the Rocky Mountains. Wish I could share these delicious delicacies with you, but this photo will have to do. Hope all is well in your world. Netherzone (talk) 23:39, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I believe it! Tis the season for chanterelles and music. The foraging trips last week were with a superb mycologist who I learned so much from. Many other species were found as well but the chanterelles were the highlight. Be well and enjoy the late summer days. Netherzone (talk) 22:22, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
For those who may have missed it in our last newsletter, here's a quick reminder to see the letter we have drafted, and if you support it, do please go ahead and sign it. If you already signed, thanks. Also, if you haven't noticed, the backlog has been trending up lately; all reviews are greatly appreciated.
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Netherzone, I see that you removed the word "renaissance" from a section heading in the article Willie Nile, stating that this word was not encyclopedic. On what basis do you hold that opinion? I am struggling to find a WP:MOS or WP:UNENCYCLOPEDIC that would identify this word as not encyclopedic. If this is just your personal opinion WP:PPOV, I suggest that you restore the word in the section heading or move this discussion to Talk:Willie Nile. BuffaloBob (talk) 13:31, 24 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your use of WP:G1 on the above draft was incorrect. Just because you think what's said on a page is "patent nonsense", apparently in the sense it's untrue, does not make it a G1; the language of G1 is clear about these things. I deleted the draft per WP:G11.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:49, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Bbb23, thank you kindly for this note. I was uncertain whether G1 or G11 was correct. I machine translated the text which made no sense in terms of an article on a notable topic, but was not sure if it qualified as spam per G11. In the future, if I'm uncertain about which criteria to use, would it be alright to drop a note to you for advise? Best regards, Netherzone (talk) 21:35, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
When you refer to G3, you must specify whether you mean the vandalism G3 or the hoax G3. Did you Google it? As far as I can tell, it exists, at least in the goofier parts of the Internet, so it can't be deleted as a hoax. G1 is definitely out as it's not gibberish. I deleted it per G11.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:20, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks so much for your help! - I had meant the G3 hoax, not the G3 vandalism. It's good to know that G11 would have been the right choice. I now understand that gibberish G1 literally means incomprehensible gibberish. Thanks again Bbb23. Netherzone (talk) 18:03, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, can you stop removing content from my mother's Wiki page?
I noticed that you removed some content that I'd added to my mother's (Zoe Lowenthal Brown) page. Please, can you stop? Nothing I've added is incorrect, and in fact I could add a lot more. I don't have "proof" (e.g. a diploma or something) that she attended CSFA, other than her documents and other sources - after 60 years of moving and traveling, she lost a lot of documentation (or I haven't found it yet). Since she died in June, I've been digging through her archives and putting dates and names to the things I always vaguely knew, but had never been captured before. She DID study with Minor White. She DID work with Dorothea Lange. So I don't understand why you decided this was "puffery." It's not, it was her life. I promise, I'm not adding anything that wasn't verifiably true. Also, I don't really know how Wikipedia works, so forgive me if I'm violating SOPs here. And if you have concerns about anything I've posted here, can you contact me before you simply remove what I've added? Thanks very much. Maggie Brown. Magpie 999 (talk) 01:49, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Magpie 999 hello and thank you for your note. I'd like to offer my condolences on the recent death of your mother, Zoe Lowenthal Brown. She was definitely an interesting photographer, and I'm sure a great human being. I'm very sorry for your loss, it's so difficult to lose a parent (mine are both gone.)
Regarding the content that I removed from Zoe's article, because WP is an encyclopedia that has policies and guidelines, you cannot simply add unsourced (unreferenced) content to an article without adding a citation to back up the claim. These rules are even stricter for biographic articles, esp. biographies of living persons or those recently deceased. That is because false information or even vandalism could be added to an article. What is needed to back up claims are secondaryreliable sourcesindependent of the subject, for example, newspaper articles, exhibition reviews, magazine articles, a book chapter, etc. I want you to know in advance I will be removing the unsourced content again, which can be added back along with in-line citations in reliable independent sources. For more info on what is considered a reliable source, see WP:RS and WP:RSP
What complicates matters is that you state you are her daughter. As a close family member, you have a conflict of interest, and need to stop directly editing the article. Please read WP:COI for more information on our conflict of interest policy and guidance. From now on instead of directly editing the article, please use the Edit Request feature to add suggested edits (including links to citations) to the Article Talk Page, which is found here: Talk:Zoe Lowenthal Brown. An unconnected editor will come along and assess the suggested edits, and either make them or not if the edit does not comply with our guidelines. This is how the integrity and quality of the encyclopedia is maintained.
Maggie, I'm happy to help out with your edit requests if you use this system and "ping" me - see: WP:PING when you add an edit request. Thank you for your time, I know this is a lot of information to take in. My best regards go out to you and your family, Netherzone (talk) 19:33, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Netherzone thank you for your condolences, and for the education on Wikipedia rules - I was absolutely unaware of how far it's developed since the early days. How strange that the person who knows the most about her and wants others to as well is considered to have a conflict of interest! It's not like I stand to gain anything from making the world more aware of her history. But, oh well. I see the point about how people could vandalize a page (which is what I thought you were doing at first!) or add a lot of commerce links or something. The problem I have is that so far I haven't found a lot of external sources for citations / groundtruthing. It's too bad, though understandable, that the information can't be shared on Wikipedia without these citations. I'm thinking that if I want to share such info, I should just create a web page for her.
I will certainly take your advice to use Edit Request, thank you for that.
Yes, she was a terrific photographer and a very interesting person, as well as a talented painter in later years. I'm learning more and more, and am more amazed, the more I dig through the boxes she left behind.
(watching:) Maggie, the best may be you write what you want to say here, and we add it to the article or not, to avoid getting you into the "conflict of interest" trouble. Wikipedia needs a source for every fact. You could make photographs of things you find in her archives, for example. Please write on your user page about the relation to your mother, - good for all to know the background. Looks like she was amazing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:30, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Gerda for reaching out - Maggie, Gerda is an awesome Wikipedian with lots of experience! Maggie, It's OK to use a historical portrait of a deceased person but it has to be uploaded with the correct license. I can help with that too. Do you have a copy of the Minor White book? I think this will be useful, but I am unable to read the content on your mother on Google Books. If there is useful content, mention it on the Article Talk Page or here, along with the PAGE NUMBER, and I can add it as an offline source. It takes time to build a proper article but there are many of us volunteers that can help out. Best to you, Netherzone (talk) 20:38, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Netherzone I really appreciate your help with this. The only thing I know about that image (which I love) is it was taken during a book party/show of the publication of The Golden Decade (Ken Bell and Victoria Whyte edited it and know the most history). The show was at a gallery in San Anselmo, CA. A man was shooting portraits of anyone who wanted them, but I never caught his name, so now I feel bad for posting it and hope it gets removed. I'm not sure why I had this lapse - I've been involved in publishing and have some exposure to copyright issues (including CC agreements), and normally I wouldn't have posted the picture. I wish I could find the person and get permission, but I want to take it down until/unless I can do that.
Yes, I do have a copy of Ten Photographers. A short bio (Zoe [Lowenthal] Brown) appears on p.9 (this is the only place I know so far that clearly states the years of her attendance at CSFA (51-53). A small selection of her photographs from that time appear on pp 9-11. Thank you so much! Magpie 999 (talk) 22:31, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Gerda Arendt That's a great idea! I didn't even realize we had user pages, but now I get it - you have one, Netherzone has one, etc. I do find the various rule pages and method pages a bit difficult to interpret, so I really appreciate your help here! Magpie 999 (talk) 22:18, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Don't give up, - of course it's tough in the beginning, but you'll find people to help! - An article written by a daughter about her mother (with helpers) is Anne Sharp, for example. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:37, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Gerda! I was trying to understand the instructions, which seemed to say that I should use the Userspace Draft so my additions can be vetted - are you saying it's ok to edit my userspace directly? Magpie 999 (talk) 23:09, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It really doesn't matter much to me. As it is already an accepted article, I would use no kind of draft, but up to you. (I don't use draft, - it's always obscure.) If you were already an experienced editor, I'd say article talk page, but as it is more a beginner's training I'd keep it more private, so could be right here, or your talk. How about your talk, which is less "crowded". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:23, 6 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Magpie 999, let's try to get your mother's article to an improved state that tells readers about her notable accomplishments during her life.
If you are wanting to create a new article on another topic, I want to suggest a different method than the one Gerda uses. You can create it an article right your sandbox! - there is a link to your sandbox at the very top of the screen next to the link to your talk page. Once you are satisfied with your creation, and it has the necessary citations per our notability criteria (See WP:N and WP:V) you can either move it to article space or submit it through the Articles for Creation process. While you are starting out you may want to use AfC, because you will get feedback on your work from other editors. The downside is there is often a long backlog, so it can take a while to get feedback.
I've made as many improvements to the article as I could based on citations from Newspapers.com and JSTOR, using her maiden name Zoe Lowenthal. But I could not find anything after 1955. Most were on a seminal show she was in while she was still a student, Perceptions, in 1954-55. Did she use any other professional names in addition to Zoe Lowenthal and Zoe Lowenthal Brown? Were there other exhibitions in later years? Netherzone (talk) 17:45, 6 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Netherzone I just looked at this and I am VERY pleased indeed. You found information I never knew (Perceptions, in 1954-55!). You are generous and kind, and I'm terribly grateful. Also for the process recommendations.
AKAs: Her maiden name was Zoe Iris Norwood, or Zoe Norwood. After her second marriage (to my father Bill Brown) she went by Zoe Norwood Brown or Zoe Brown.
One immediately verifiable reference is The Golden Decade, which includes some of her work. I believe I added that to the cites, but don't see it now - wondering if there's a reason for that?
These are not her only contributions, but they are the ones I have to hand right now.
@Magpie 999, I am so glad that you are pleased. We can continue to work together to improve it, and add more content as you find it in your searches through her archive and papers. There is no deadlines on Wikipedia, so we can think of it like an ongoing conversation.
It is really good to have confirmation of her maiden name. Thanks for that! Your father Bill Brown sounds equally awesome as your mother. What a great time to be living in the Bay Area in the height of the Beat Generation.
I will go ahead and start to add the above to Zoe's article over the next day or two. Are your mothers archives located in a public resource like the Archives of American Art (Smithsonian Institution) or do you still have them locally? I saw that your father's papers are at Columbia U. archives. Netherzone (talk) 21:31, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, also, and apologies - you edited her to "Lowenthal Brown" - she would have preferred just "Brown." Mostly over the last few decades she signed her name as Zoe Brown. Not a rush, just when you have a moment, could you change that? Or let me know if I'm allowed to do that. Thank you! Magpie 999 (talk) 21:29, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
(watching:) I am pleased with what you achieved. Wikipedia has no deadlines, but it's DYK (Did you know ...?) section has one. We should nominate her for the front page within five days, - it's good enough already. Should I do that for you? Saying what in one short sentence? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:43, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Gerda, I was thinking the same thing - but I'm not sure what the "hook" would be. It would be great to have an interesting hooky quote or the like. @Magpie 999, the Did You Know...? (DYK) column is featured on the main page of the encyclopedia. The articles need to be new (I think it's 7days since the creation date) or vastly improved over a specified period of time. They must be well sourced (as the article now is). I think if we can come up with an interesting "hook" (See Wikipedia:Did you know/Hook, [[20]] and [[21]]) it would have a good chance. Netherzone (talk) 22:03, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Netherzone I don't know what would make her interesting to other people, but this is a great idea. I always thought it was interesting that, as a photographer herself, she worked as Dorothea Lange's darkroom assistant. Her connections to that group of photographers (Ansel Adams, Minor White, Lange, etc), and then through my father her connections to beat poets and other characters of the late 60s (she shot a beautiful photograph of a long-haired Peter Coyote with his chopper) made her interesting IMO. The problem here is it's hard to document the latter part - her connections to 1960s cultural and literary figures. She also did typesetting for some poetry books (she did at least one for Grey Fox Press - I can find it among my books if that would help).
Another angle is that she had a pretty classic trajectory as a woman artist - starting out strong, going to school, some early successes and a lot of promise - and then gradual obscurity as she became a wife and mother, moved away from her group of friends and associates, and got caught up in keeping things going until a divorce from my father was inevitable. By then, photography had gone by the wayside, and making a living as a single mother during the great recession of the 70s became her entire focus. (That's when she turned to technical writing.)
@Magpie 999, sorry to keep pinging you! I think I may have found an online copy of Zoe's bio in the Minor White book by Hertzmann. Is this it?[22] - if it is the same as the bio in the Minor White book, I'll be able to use it since I can read it online. Google Books did not allow me to do that. When you find a moment, please confirm if this is the same text. Thanks and fingers crossed! Netherzone (talk) 22:13, 9 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is a kind of marketing thing that Paul Hertzman did for some prints she sold him (for him to sell). It looks like the first sentence of the brochure was adapted from the first sentence in the book's bio, but it's not the same text. The text in the brochure is longer, too. Are you unable to cite the text in the Hertzman brochure? I have a copy, is there a way I can help here?
Don't apologize for pinging me! This is an unexpected and amazing thing to experience after her death. I'm rediscovering my mother! As you can probably tell, I don't spend a lot of time every day on my computer; I work a 9-5 on THEIR computer and by the end of the weekday, I'm tired of it. But I do check in now and then. This is just to let you know I'm paying attention, but not daily. Magpie 999 (talk) 22:57, 10 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello again Maggie, thank you for your messages, and sorry for the delay getting back to you. I work at a university, and the beginning of the academic year is always busy and a little chaotic.
I am wondering if you would happen to have the time to either scan or photograph pages 9-11 of the Minor White book, and email it to me via the "Email this user" link. If I had that text I could use it to improve the biographic info in the article and be able to cite the source. If you are unable or not comfortable doing that, I could see if the university library could try to find a copy via an interlibrary loan. (Our library on campus has gotten rid of the majority of their hard copy books, which saddens me as I am a book lover.
BTW, I saw your sweet message on Possibly's user page (he was the editor who originally created the article on Zoe.) He was a wonderful supporter of women artists, and is missed by the community. Netherzone (talk) 18:16, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Re: the Hertzman brochure, I think I can use parts of it. It's a self-published text so it is not as ideal of a source as the published Minor White book, however I'm confident that it is accurate, and may have even been written with your mother's approval. Netherzone (talk) 18:24, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Netherzone Thanks for this! I've photo'd those pages (didn't want to damage the spine in a scanner), but for the life of me I can't find "email this user." I have just reconfirmed my email, so we should be good on that count. Can you please advise? Thank you! Magpie 999 (talk) 17:44, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The "Email this user" link is available in the "toolbox" on the left side of the screen, when the User or User talk page of any editor with email enabled is view
Thank you, and I'm glad you did not damage the book! Re: the link to email a user...here is a screen shot. You should find the link on the left side of your computer screen under "Tools", as shown in the image. Netherzone (talk) 17:51, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is fantastic! Thank you 10,000 times @Netherzone! I really like what you added. Because I'm a long time copy editor, I have a few very minor tweaks to the text.
And I continue to go through her photos, paintings, and some really interesting writings that she either didn't publish or self published. She was a secretly terrific writer and I have at least 2 boxes of her travel diaries to read (not to mention a whole box of personal and artists' diaries - she went to Norway (her father's family home), China, France, sailed around the world on a freighter, visited the art museums and churches in Italy,....there's so much there, it's mind blowing to me, and as much as I argue with myself, I have many regrets. I will loop you in; not all this history might work for Wikipedia, but I feel you've been so helpful and involved that you deserve simply to know more about her. Should I continue to "reply" in this UI or should we switch to only email? Thank you for everything, and let me know. Magpie 999 (talk) 04:43, 4 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Magpie 999 - hello and hope all is well in your world. I was wondering about this: as well as a talented painter in later years. and if you have more information about her paintings, or where you think I might find out more, please let me know. Whenever you might find a chance, no deadlines. All best, Netherzone (talk) 22:28, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Love this, thank you Gerda and I will check out all these links and look at your most recent songs and food. Blessings for a glorious autumn. Netherzone (talk) 01:19, 6 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I spotted the deer from your twilight stroll around Ehrenbach! See here foraged mushrooms, from the last foray of late summer, ready for identification. Foraged mushrooms - ready for identificationNetherzone (talk) 22:38, 8 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The foraging was great in the Rocky Mountain/San Juan Mountain West this year, because it was an wet year in the mountains, everything was so green, and wildflowers everywhere. It felt like the drought has lifted a bit in that part of the West. I'm back now on the East Coast now for my job, with a bit of a culture shock, although being at high-altitude and coming back to sea-level is always energizing. So much oxygen! ha ha! Netherzone (talk) 22:52, 8 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for sharing! The rose pic was taken on 11 Sep 2021, and this year was full of music that day, Tag des offenen Denkmals, not only singing in church and rehearsals for Verdi's Requiem, but two concerts at special places pictured, one a synagogue (pictured on its wall). Today three DYK: a piece we'll perform on Sunday, a violinist we heard in June playing the Berg Concerto, and a Youth Orchestra shaped by a conductor who recently died. Almost too much of a good thing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:32, 14 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! - Today, we sang old music for two choirs at church (the other Idstein church), pictured, scroll to the image of the organ of the month of the Diocese of Limburg (my perspective), and if you have time, watch the video about it --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:19, 18 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Gerda, for sharing music and architecture (and music in architecture). I have been busy at work, and life in general feels complex. It is always nice to return to this peaceful zone on my talk page. Peacezone, a.k.a. Netherzone (talk) 21:40, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ha! Tomorrow is our neighborhood farmer's market. There is a great wild culinary mushroom vendor there. A few weeks ago they gifted me with some "Pioppini" mushrooms, Latin: Cyclocybe aegerita, known in Japan as Yanagi-matsutake (Japanese:柳松茸). Wow! so much flavor in such a tiny mushroom. Enjoy the Fall weather. It is beautiful here. Be well, friend. Netherzone (talk) 23:09, 29 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @Magnolia677, nice to hear from you, it's been quite a while since our paths last crossed. I happened upon that article and it seemed written in a promotional tone. I'll have a look at the links above. Hope all is well in your world. Netherzone (talk) 17:56, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much for that source reliability chart in that most recent AfD. I'm going to use this forever. You're the best and thank you for your high quality work.
Dr vulpes, Hello! And thank you for the cute goat with a sweet smile. I too was really happy to learn about this Template:SAT tool. It takes a while to fill it in, however it's exactly what is needed to analyze these types of complex cases. Good meeting you and see you around! Netherzone (talk) 00:33, 25 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I'm MB. I wanted to let you know that I saw the page you reviewed or created, Ber, and have marked it as unreviewed. If you have any questions, please ask them on my talk page. Thank you.
(Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)
Thank you for unreviewing the Ber article - I meant to nominate it for speedy deletion, but I guess I (or the curation tool?) also marked it as reviewed. Not exactly sure what I may have done incorrectly; it's good to know other editors are double checking - I'm really grateful for your help. Netherzone (talk) 00:05, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I just stumbled on to that one because the hijacking of the redirect caused a hatnote error in another article. You did CSD it. But somehow, you also marked it reviewed too. Please check your Twinkle preferences to make sure you don't have the box checked to do that automatically (Prod also). You can/should check the box for AFDs only. MB00:12, 1 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Today is Erntedank in Germany, thanksgiving, and we celebrated our village's 650th anniversary, and had the dress rehearsal for Verdi's Requiem with an interesting band of marimba, piano, horn, bass, timpani and drum, - concert tomorrow, our national holiday. Seeing a pic I took on the Main page was also a nice harvest. -- Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:22, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Gerda, than you for sharing your recent work, it's great to hear from such a productive, busy friend! On my end, I'm back at my job full time in-person again, after the summer off. It's not as easy for me to focus on WP when I'm in that mind-set. And things in general have been chaotic in the city where my home-base is. Today I managed to create a very short start article on a Canadian documentary photographer, Christopher Herwig. BTW, I like what you wrote above re: (QMARIMBA, PIANO, HORN, BASS, TIMPANI AND DRUM) when I read those words, I heard it in my mind! Thank you for bringing sound into the realm of written text so beautifully.Netherzone (talk) 22:29, 9 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
today's DYK: two facts from the two concert of this years Rheingau Musik Festival I liked best, both a cappella singing. If you follow the songs, you see a circus, where I performed singing, and in the end the whole tent joined for Dona nobis pacem. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:31, 19 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Van Poucke is wonderful; very impressive skill displayed in that video. Thanks for creating this, Gerda! Yesterday I created a short start article on Eugenia Bone for WiR. She's the author of several books, a brilliant foodie (and food and nature journalist for The NY Times, Wall St. Journal, etc.), and an amateur mycologist. I highly recommend her recent book Fantastic Fungi Community Cookbook. BTW, I love it when you post your marvelous food photos from your various travels. Netherzone (talk) 13:07, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I will check it out! Hope you don't mind that I used one of your images here: Sparassis crispa. Are you OK with my placing some of your other images into relevant articles or would you rather make those decisions? Netherzone (talk) 21:14, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there. First up thanks for the review. This was my first page on Wikipedia so nice to have a response. On a re-read, with your comments in mind, I think you are absolutely right so have removed the list of exhibitions and will incorporate some of the key ones back into the exhibition section as per your review at a later date. Hope this isn't to clumsy a way of responding. Cheers, MMD Manymanydogs (talk) 16:45, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @Manymanydogs - thanks for your message, this is indeed a good way to communicate. Congratulations on your first article! I hope you continue to contribute to the encyclopedia - it's a great hobby to have. I will keep the article on my watchlist, and if I see anything that could be added I will do so, or if I'm not sure if it's relevant will post to the article talk page. If you have any questions about the Teststrip or anything else Wikipedia related, do not hesitate to ask. You can also ask at the Teahouse which is a forum for new users; or if you have more complicated technical questions try the Help Desk. Happy editing! Netherzone (talk) 16:55, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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Hi! Yes I saw that has been on the Main Page, and assumed it was one of your good works! Thanks for the November greetings. It's hard to believe it is November already and soon the year will be coming to a close. That went by really fast! Netherzone (talk) 21:31, 2 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to have missed you, Gerda! If I had known sooner, I would have invited you for a walk, or shared a coffee or meal. I hope you had a terrific vacation! I really enjoyed your photos and am glad you were able to return to Manitoga. It's such a special place; I simply love those outdoor "moss rooms" that Russel Wright designed. Cheers! Netherzone (talk) 00:02, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Gerda for the Thanksgiving greeting and for sharing the wishes for world peace! I'm cooking up some treats for our dinner tonight. Netherzone (talk) 14:31, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You spoke about good timing the first round ;) - I recommend you go to the Christmas concert of the Dessoff Choirs, - I listened to a rehearsal. The article is in bad shape, help welcome. Off for the opera now. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:37, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It's hard to believe it's December already, Gerda. Thanks for sharing your singing with the world. The trip to Paris sounds great. Did you have some nice meals? I always love looking at your food photos! Netherzone (talk) 19:18, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
several meals pictured, no? - Today, we sing for a Marian feast, I learned that Yvonne Ciannella died, the soprano who impressed me in my first night at the opera, and as she died in March, sadly no Main page reverence is possible, - at least she had a good DYK, at a time when opera singers were considered interesting. I'm proud today that Christiane Hörbiger made it to that corner, and happy that we celebrate the birthday of Jean Sibelius again. - I heard an excellent Christmas concert yesterday, by Tenebrae, and a short excerpt of them singing "Deo gracias" is also linked from my talk. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:30, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Congratulations on your recent contributions, Gerda, we are so lucky to have you here. It's a very busy time for me at work now and until the holidays, so I haven't had a chance to look through your new pictures and articles yet. I will once I come up for air! The best to you, Netherzone (talk) 22:18, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How wonderful that you sang this delightful piece on Noël, and that it was on the main page yesterday - brilliant work, Gerda! Thank you spreading joy, song and kindness to the community. The season is lovely this year, and we got an unexpected cold snap which makes it feel especially seasonal (and cozy indoors). The very best to you and yours. Hope 2023 is a good year for all~! Netherzone (talk) 18:18, 25 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. First, thanks for your support at Trail of Tears.
I am looking for some advice on how to receive the recent additions arguing against the term 'genocide' describing the Trail of Tears. I really appreciate the editor who made those contributions, and I think the article is much better now than it was before, and could possibly be stable as it is. So that's something. I also think these additions aren't the best sources (maybe not even the best available sources to represent that position, although I'm not sure). They're mostly older, and one of the better sources (Wilenz 2006) is actually misrepresented. Wilenz doesn't say that using the term genocide is a "caricature". He says that [Jacksonian Democracy's] first crusade, aimed, the critics charge, at the "infantilization" and "genocide" of the Indians, removal supposedly signaled a momentous transition from the ethical community upheld by antiremoval men to Jackson's boundless individualism. Jackson's democracy, for these historians - indeed liberal society - was founded on degradation, dishonor, and death. Like all historical caricatures, this one turns tragedy into melodrama, exaggerates parts at the expense of the whole... -- so the caricature refers to a larger perception of Jacksonian democracy as a momenous transition from the ethical community upheld by antiremoval men, (which I might not actually contest).
So I don't want to nitpick this issue when it's already been hashed out for a year (to the day, incidentally!), and when we might finally have a stable version of the article that is actually a lot better than it was. But I also don't think this should be misrepresented or that a false balance should be made between these two positions if there aren't actually recent and legitimate scholars making a strong case against labeling it genocide.
Should I just let this go? What do you think? I'm asking because you've been consistently involved in the discussion from the beginning, and also more detached than myself recently, (or Hobomok earlier), so I thought your perspective might be helpful. I don't want to come off as being uncompromising. Sorry for the novel here. Thanks Larataguera (talk) 03:01, 9 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Greetings, @Larataguera, and thank you for stopping by, it is very good to meet you here. I agree with you that there are problems, such as false balance, and sourcing issues. I'm remaining detached because seems that continuing the talk-page discussion will just drag things out even longer; (that and also I'm extremely busy at my full-time job). Have you considered posting a note or Request for Comments to WP:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America? Netherzone (talk) 20:07, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your perspective here. I will think about posting an rfc. It does seem like the current consensus on the page is to be satisfied with how things are. The issue is that there are thousands of books and papers on this topic, so reference selection becomes arbitrary if there aren't stringent source requirements. I may give it some time before I bring it up again. I'm a little fatigued with the discussion myself, and I have been thinking about some other articles. I only got dragged into this one because I appreciated Hobomok's work and hated to see that debate be all for nothing when they left.
I'd really prefer to be working on articles about places/issues in the global South. The prospect of correcting WP:bias on this encyclopedia is a little overwhelming. Even areas with good coverage don't have balanced coverage, and so much of what matters isn't covered at all. It doesn't seem like people understand how biased everything is. (At least the articles about bias aren't very good!) Anyway, I hope I'm not being too negative. It's just a little alarming when we consider how widely used this encyclopedia is. I appreciate your perspective. Thanks again! Larataguera (talk) 11:42, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Larataguera I get it. When I find a moment, I'll check out what you are working on, it is great to hear you are working on the global South. Yes I agree that it's good to be on the alert regarding bias; it is slow going but progress gets made. There are some clear voices here. Be well my new friend, and see you around. Netherzone (talk) 01:35, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is a reaction to the templates inserted in the article and your reduction of the text. There is an information source for Czech art that has no equivalent abroad. abART is subsidised annually by the Czech Ministry of Culture and provides verified information on exhibitions, literature, representation in collections, etc. It is therefore unnecessary to document this data from other sources. I only have to add that Zdeněk Beran is the most important Czech artist of the post-war era.--NoJin (talk) 18:01, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @NoJin, nice meeting you here, and thank you kindly for your message.
I certainly do not doubt Zdeněk Beran's notability or importance, however, the article was one of the most promotional I've seen in a decade of editing en-WP. It was filled with excessive non-encyclopedic details and puffery. The superabundant number of images (which have now been trimmed and organized by decade representation), was using the article as a web hosting service - see WP:NOTWEBHOST – that is the sort of content that belongs on a personal website or his gallery's website. Also the references contain bare URLs that are prone to link-rot. I realize that this is probably not the reply you were hoping to hear, and I'm sorry for that, but I do believe my good-faith clean-up improved the article. Netherzone (talk) 19:58, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. I am very unhappy about the reduction of photo documentation of images. It's not exactly easy to get photos and permission from the copyright heir, and in the case of Beran, my four years of effort is behind it. Each of the works is mentioned in the text and also represents something groundbreaking in the whole context of Czech art - especially deleted Dr Dr's Rehabilitation Ward, which was destroyed. I have been involved in Czech art for over 50 years and intensively for the last decade (This is my project: Art Library - in Czech[23]), and I am well aware of why some of the works are significant. In addition, I work with professional art historians with whom I consult texts. There is no "own research" involved, all information is traceable in the cited literature. You would have to experience the communist regime firsthand to understand the significance of the artists' life vicissitudes and the reflection of that experience in the work (see, for example, Zdeněk Beran, Attempt at Stability, which you deleted).--NoJin (talk) 20:21, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@NoJin, I’m happy to work together on the article. I had cleaned up some of the unsourced content and redundant images which is in compliance with policy, guidelines and MOS.
Here are some additional thoughts so far:
Redundant images:
There were originally 24 images in the article, many of which were redundant. I pruned these to 6 images representing 6 decades of work. If you feel that other work would be more representative, then chose others. BTW, I feel that the Commons Category template is sufficient for readers who want to see additional images. To clarify why I trimmed a particular set of images: It is unclear what exactly readers would have gained from viewing all of the following images from the 1950s/early 60s, rather than any single one of these works: Kneeling (1958), Action Study (1958), Hint of Three Figures 1 (1959-61), Study of Structure VI (1961), Big Red Structure (1963). I chose Kneeling (1958) to represent an early work with both gestural and figurative elements. If you are unhappy with that change it.
Unsourced content:
I removed unsourced content, which is in compliance with en-WP policies and guidelines. WP:VWP:BURDEN states: All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution... Any material lacking an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the material may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source. If you have sources for the content removed, please feel free to restore text along with added citations for verifiability.
Example of verbose word salad currently existing in the article that needs cleaning up:
It is nearly impossible to unpack what this trying to communicate: He disturbed the images formed in low reliefs of sculpturally worked uncoloured masses with gestural interventions. Beran's work is characterized by the barocization of material structures, which manifests itself in the rebellion and opening up of the structure and visualizes the inner momentum and energy of matter (Exhaust, 1965, The Bulge, 1965). The expressiveness of the high raw structures, compressed into a lapidary order, has monumental potency and expresses the drama of individual existence and the pathos of human destiny. Not only is it incoherent, it seems like original research.
Example of excessive detail:
Student life on the periphery of society centered around cheap tap bars, pubs and snack bars and included frequent changes of housing - in dormitories, in student hostels, in sublets, with friends, in a former laundry in Prague suburb, and finally in an arbour in Troja, which became Beran's studio This unnecessarily wordy description could be said more succinctly: “While a student, he and his classmates gathered in a former laundry in a Prague suburb, and later in an arbour in Troja which became Beran’s studio."
Largely unsourced CV/resume-like list of collections and exhibitions:
These should include only the most important shows and they need references for verification. The rest belongs on his website.
Sorry for the length of this reply, I hope it provides insight into the clean-up, and offers additional suggestions for improvement. Best regards, Netherzone (talk) 17:13, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
New Zealand report: Integrating with the BHL, loading natural science specimens and data
Poland report: How Wiki helps to explore and enjoy art & culture; Wiki workshop for the National Museum in Krakow; GLAM online meeting on ideas for 2023; Wiki Loves Monuments 2022
Serbia report: Wikipedian in residence at Faculty of Dramatic Arts in Belgrade and National Museum of Zrenjanin
Sweden report: Wikipedian in Residence at Musikverket; Women and architecture; Gymnasiearbete; New uploads from the Swedish National Archives; WLM winners; Images of Äpplet
Dear Netherzone,
I am new here and created article of contemporary female artist Regina Parra.
Following AFD discussions on visual arts I believed the artist was notable, yet my article
got tagged after the review. what should I do know?
If the reviewer is right, will the article be deleted or will it be discussed first?
If the subject is notable, (per collections and articles in international press) what are the steps to remove the tagging?
Hello, and thanks for reaching out, @Hermann Heilner Giebenrath. I will give the article a deeper look later today or tomorrow, but a quick glance indicates to me that she passes WP:NARTIST criteria for notability criterion #4 in that her work is represented in several museum collections. To improve the article in relation to WP:GNG I would suggest converting relevant items in the "Further reading" section to proper citations supporting additional material in her biography. For example, the ArtForum review contributes to notability as it is an in-depth (significant coverage) of her work as written about in a top-notch art journal that is considered a reliable source. Continue to make this kinds of improvements, and it is likely that the tag for notability will be removed. This is exactly the type of independent secondary sourcing (rather than primary sourcing that is connected to the the artist directly) that is needed to remove the primary sources tags. Personally, I don't think you have anything to worry about it being deleted, but it can and should be improved. Hope this is helpful, and nice to meet you here. Netherzone (talk) 14:56, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Hermann Heilner Giebenrath, I've removed the notability tag, as she is in the permanent collections of two notable museums, and therefore meets NARTIST. I've left the other tag on the article (for primary sources) because additional references need to be added that are verifiable WP:V in reliable sources WP:RS that are independent of the subject herself, or galleries that show/have shown her work, or her own website. What is needed are secondary sources - meaning things that others have written about her. Netherzone (talk) 23:45, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How lovely! Thank you Beccaynr for the thoughtful holiday wishes - it's so nice to have dancing fairies on my user page! I can almost her them singing! The very best to you as well, and thank you for all your excellent contributions throughout the year! Netherzone (talk) 21:38, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers and thank you for all of your excellent work, Netherzone - you were also the first editor to ever send me wikiholiday cheer, so I very much appreciate your inspiration :) Beccaynr (talk) 21:52, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Or Season's Greetings or Happy Winter Solstice! As the year winds to a close, I would like to take a moment to recognize your hard work and offer heartfelt gratitude for all you do for Wikipedia. May this Holiday Season bring you and yours nothing but joy, health and prosperity. Onel5969TT me20:07, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Netherzone, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2023. Happy editing,
I wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas and a very happy and healthy New Year, Thank you for all your contributions to Wikipedia, –Davey2010Talk20:09, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You are invited to join the Wikimedia NYC community for our WikiWednesday Salon, with in-person at Brooklyn Public Library by Grand Army Plaza, in the Central Library's Info Commons Lab, as well as an online-based participation option. No experience of anything at all is required. All are welcome!
We are proud to announce that monthly PIZZA has returned!
All attendees are subject to Wikimedia NYC's Code of Conduct. In addition, to participate in person you should be vaccinated and also be sure to respect others' personal space, and we may limit overall attendance size if appropriate. Brooklyn Public Library encourages the wearing of masks when indoors, and especially be mindful of those in your proximity.
Hello Netherzone, may you be surrounded by peace, success and happiness on this seasonal occasion. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Sending you heartfelt and warm greetings for Christmas and New Year 2023. Happy editing,CAPTAIN RAJU(T)20:51, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Captain Raju, and have a wonderful holiday season and a happy new year! Here's to 2023!
Whatever you celebrate at this time of year, whether it's Christmas or some other festival, I hope you and those close to you have a happy, restful time! Have fun, Donner60 (talk) 00:16, 23 December 2022 (UTC)}}[reply]
Thank you Donner60 for your kind holiday card! I appreciate the well wishes for a happy, restful and fun season - three very important things...happiness, relaxation, and fun, how delightful. Best to you as well. Netherzone (talk) 01:51, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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