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There is an overarching conceptual problem with this article. It presents itself in the lead as a list of "wars," but then proceeds to list many incidents that are clearly not wars. An IP pointed out earlier this year, for example, "[T]he 2022 China-India border skirmishes were arguably a series of brawls." I focus on the claim that there is an "ongoing" war on Xinjiang and also that it is somehow a "partial" PRC victory. It is evident that many of the conclusions on this article are WP:SYNTH as there is extremely little sourcing.
Are there any views on how to address this? In my view, it is either necessary to change the title to "conflicts" to match the broad construction of the article body or start deleting non-wars to match the narrow construction of the heading. JArthur1984 (talk) 12:51, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have taken an initial trim of the most obvious "non-wars." A question continues about how to address the remaining various border or territorial conflicts/military clashes. Especially where the Wikipedia article they link to does not describe the conflict as a "war" and no source for "war" is given here. My current view would be to delete these as well. JArthur1984 (talk) 13:09, 6 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This does seem to be in keeping with most "List of wars involving" pages out there which seem to list a lot of conflicts and wars. I have readded a couple removed as they were more than brief territorial gains and left off a couple that might be questionable. I was unsure about First Taiwan Strait Crisis & Second Taiwan Strait Crisis, but left them off for good measure.--DarkAzure (talk) 01:56, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think good to leave off. But a nice thing about the article structure here is that in the See Also heading, there’s a bullet list for “Other conflicts involving the People's Republic of China.” Which is where non-war conflicts of note could be listed specifically. JArthur1984 (talk) 02:07, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You can now see that this is not my "own criteria" but a consensus that emerged on talk, in this thread and a prior thread (and at least one other editor in edit summaries but not reflected on talk). Of course, you should feel free to re-start this conversation but remember that the Wikipedia:ONUS is on you. You are suggesting the inclusion of non-wars on a page which is cabined in terms of "wars". You are not citing any Wikipedia:Reliable sources. You should show that the balance of RS describe those conflicts as "wars" to avoid WP:Undue.
Wikipedia:OTHERSTUFF is not a meaningful argument as each page must be addressed on its own merits. I quite agree that in your example, Bay of Pigs should be removed from the US side. Your example of the Libya bombing actually shows why your analogy fails -- our bombing of Libya page immediately describes it as part of a "war". That is a much more understandable inclusion.
Finally, it might be worth re-naming the page the military conflicts involving the PRC. That is probably a longer discussion of course. But non-wars are outside the scope of the article as it currently exists. JArthur1984 (talk) 17:32, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment
re: Page rename:
I oppose changing the name, however a new outline article similar to Outline of Pakistan military history could be created and would be a great navigation page.
re: List criteria
@Ratnahastin:, the article criteria is clear: "This is a list of wars involving the People's Republic of China", please read WP:LISTCRITERIA. Problems in other articles such as List of wars involving the United States do not justify introducing problems into this article.
The issue is what the consensus of reliable sources show.
Nathu La and Cho La clashes: the sources I have found overwhelmingly refer to this as boarder "skirmishs", "clashes", "dispute", not a war. If you can develop consensus with reliable sources that this is considered to be a war, then it will be added.
Same can be said of Sino-Soviet border conflict, this was more geopolitically serious, the sources I can find agree with the article that these clashes brought the two parties to the "brink of war", some after the fact sources seem to have a consensus that a war was averted. Again if you can develop consensus with reliable sources that this is considered to be a war, then it will be added.
There are some issues I am thinking about that need to be discussed, re: the PRCs relationship with Taiwan and India.
I think in some sense events related to India (taken as a whole) represent a sort of undeclared quasi-war with outbreaks of fighting. I think this could be described as a major conflict, the sum being greater than the individual parts.
Event surrounding Taiwan since the "end" of the civil war can be seen as a continuation of the Chinese Civil War.
I have some sources written down, and have been thinking about how these could possibly be incorporated, but not enough yet to start a discussion. // Timothy :: talk22:55, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reply: Those sources are enough for me to remove my objection. I also had a few sources from JSTOR, but hadn't returned yet to post them. Sources are always the key, I know this can be frustrating, but ultimately the end result will be an improved.
Although some sources have been brought forward, in my experience these would be minority views (my impression being much more confident in the Sino-Soviet Border Conflict). Has anyone run a Google n-gram comparing “war” versus “clashes” or “conflict”? JArthur1984 (talk) 12:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why is it labeled a defeat? The status is labeled as a status quo antebellum in the actual article. This result seems flawed or biased in some way. This is compounded by the fact that American withdrawals from the Vietnam war are labeled as, "Withdrawal" rather than "Defeat". I would like whoever wrote this article be consistent when labelling outcomes of war. Searchingforthecore (talk) 13:40, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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