Talk:Iran/Archive 20

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Strange lack of Persian script in the article?

The article has a tag for "rendering support to display the Persian text in this article correctly", yet there's almost no Persian text in the article itself, with even the name of the country in the native language being hidden in footnotes. In other places in the article, a romanization of Persian words is used without the accompanying Persian text. The section "Name" has Greek, Cyrillic, and even Cuneiform script, but no modern Persian script. Yet it provides a romanization of "Irānzamīn or Irān e Bozorg" without the accompanying actual Persian script. Egypt#Names has Arabic script, China#Etymology has Chinese characters, Greece#Name uses Greek script, Russia#Etymology uses Cyrillic, Japan#Etymology use Kanji, and Pakistan#Etymology even uses Persian script! Surely there needs to be some review of this so that Persian words/phrases used in the article are written in Persian script alongside transliteration, similar to how the China article has places where they write both the pinyin and the characters for some Chinese words/phrases, and how the Japan article writes both the Romaji and the Kanji/Hiragana for some Japanese words/phrases. JasonMacker (talk) 20:43, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 January 2023

Hello, The gini coeficient is 40.9 for Iran, and GDP per Capits is 4,091.21 USD. It is shameful that your encyclopedia publish fake numbers. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=IR 94.183.20.190 (talk) 11:28, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

I've updated the Gini figures and added a note explaining the IMF nominal GDP figure with a link to the World Bank's database. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:42, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

The nominal GDP per capita issues

IMF report shows that Iran's nominal GDP per capita grew insanely in the last years, with about 50 % per year. Witch is impossible, especially since the World Bank report shows that in fact Iran's nominal GDP per capita is very low, just about 2500 $. It might be a good idea to renounce the IMF report on Iran, since it's impossible to be the truth, and adopt the World Bank report, or the United Nations report. 2A02:2F01:8901:EA00:2544:B0C1:4E8E:C1B4 (talk) 07:39, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

The IMF figures are basically useless because the IMF uses official exchange rates to calculate GDP and GDP per capita figures, which in the case of Iran currently produces wildly incorrect figures that fail to account for the runaway inflation. The World Bank calculations better reflect the real value of the GDP and GDP per capita figures relative to the dollar. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:43, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Then why are we using IMF statistics for other major economics like China and Japan (not to mention every other nation on this site), and not the World Bank? If the IMF is unreliable, then it wouldn't make much sense to use them for other economies on Wikipedia. For instance, you cite hyperinflation as a reason for not using the IMF statistics for Iran, but IMF statistics are in use for Turkey and Argentina, both of which have far higher inflation rates than Iran according to both Forbes and Wikipedia itself. There is no justification for this line of reasoning, and therefore the original statistics should and will be restored. Vivaporius (talk) 21:06, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Every statistical methodology has its flaws. The IMF approach and figures are generally sound, but they don't respond well to the combination of extreme inflation and deeply artificial official exchange rates currently presented by Iran. I'm surprised they haven't simply stopped reporting Iran's numbers (as with Lebanon) or made a one-off tweak to the methodology and added a footnote, but they haven't. However, clearly Iran's economy hasn't quadrupled in size mid Covid and mid sanctions, so presenting the current IMF numbers is not really helpful to anyone, and, at least for now, it would be better to use World Bank figures or another alternative. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:33, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

You would then need to explain why we are using IMF statistics for several other nations on the site with similar or higher rates of inflation, and then make a special exception for Iran alone. Again, there is no sound justification as to why we ought to use World Bank statistics over those of the IMF, which I must remind you, is an arm of the United Nations and therefore has a higher degree of legitimacy in terms of sourcing, regardless of the statistical methodology employed. Changing the source to match our personal perception of what we think the economic performance of a nation ought to be displayed as isn't our job. Whatever you or I think about Iran's economy, the professionals from the institutional standard have said otherwise and their assessment is what we go by. The World Bank's data serves as a supplement to that provided by the IMF, but we err on the side of caution and stick with the UN data provided through the IMF. Nothing more and nothing less. Vivaporius (talk) 00:23, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

The World Bank and IMF are equally part of the UN system, so both are equally valid by that particular argument from authority - even if we assume arguments from authority are a good thing here, and that assuming UN=better is a valid argument (both of which are questionable). Erring on the side of caution would be to report both. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:18, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

However, if you would like to engage with the actual issue at hand, IMF figures show Iran's real GDP growing by just 2% every year since 2018, while at the same time, its nominal GDP has grown from around $500bn to $1.9tn - which is instead due to the roughly 38% inflation. However, this wouldn't typically cause nominal GDP to rise in the same way in any normal country, because what also happens when you have rampant inflation is that the currency devalues. This is not currently being recognized by the IMF methodology in the case of Iran because the official subsidized exchange rate is still about 40,000 riyals to the dollar. However, today the subsidized exchange rate is only applicable to the import and expert of exactly 7 basic commodities including wheat, corn and oil (not the whole economy), and even this is down from a list of 25 commodities in 2018. Other essentials, such as rice, sugar, meat and tea are now being traded at exchange rates of 270,000 riyals to the dollar. (See here fore more info.) The World Bank figures basically show what you get if you use the actual, not official rate. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:45, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

NB: There is a note specifying exactly this and urging caution in the use of the IMF figure for Iran at List of countries by GDP (nominal). Iskandar323 (talk) 05:01, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't need a lesson in economics. You will again need to explain why we use it for every other nation on Wikipedia, including nations with rampant hyperinflation (of which there are many in excess of Iran) using the IMF figures. I agree that the numbers are clearly sketch, but our personal opinion on the subject shouldn't factor into which figures are used until the community has determined how to proceed, which I would fully support. Again, we aren't here to provide our own independent research and justification into issues that entire institutions handle themselves and that we use for sourcing. Until the IMF changes those figures, those are the ones we are stuck with. And until we justify using the IMF figures for Venezuela, Argentina, and Turkey, changing that for Iran all on its own cannot be justified. Let it be known that I completely agree with you. But we can't make changes based on own personal analysis, which we aren't here to do. Vivaporius (talk) 22:50, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Ok, but why the insistence that we explicitly prefer the IMF figures? There is no pledge of obeisance to IMF figures regardless of their sketchiness. Iran's figures are currently exceptional for three reasons: A) the hyperinflation; B) the extraordinarily artificial exchange rate, which is off by a factor of 7; and, C) the IMF's continued deference to that exchange rate despite the fact that it now only applies to a basket of 7 imports. Other countries have hyperinflation, but unless there is another country's data is afflicted by all three of these problems in conjunction, the analogies to other poorly economies are moot. Consistency between articles is one thing, but when a dataset is clearly presenting a wildly incorrect picture (and you agree the numbers are sketchy), it makes no sense to continue to prioritize its use simply out of force of habit. On the other hand, providing solely the IMF figures as if they are the most objective dataset regarding this information is a disservice to readers, and arguably also not balanced. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:24, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

As a bare minimum, the infobox should include the same note as found at List of countries by GDP (nominal) that notes the issues with the GDP figure for Iran, as well as a link to that page so that readers can clearly see the variance between the numbers produced by the IMF and others - as well as an alternative to Iran's economy being the 11th largest in the world (the World Bank data produces 50th) - or better still, just drop the 'ranking', since no institute 'ranks' economies. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:33, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

IMF is a reliable source and we use it in a great many of articles, i see no reason to remove it in the case of Iran while it's used as a source for many others like Russia, China, etc ...---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 07:56, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

No one is questioning whether the IMF is a reliable source. But the World Bank is too, so it's WP:CONFLICTING. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:45, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Iran cannot have a GDP of both $2 trillion and $250 billion, and displaying just one of these is very unbalanced. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:49, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but if i'm not mistaken, the world bank does not give any figure for Iran's nominal GDP in 2022, IMF does. By the way, 2022 figures can only be estimates. ---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:56, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, they can only be projections in truth, since they are from October, but yes, the other sources provide their numbers only after year's end, because they are not in the projection-making business. The $1,750bn discrepancy - no minor deviation - remains. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:40, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

A case in point in the edit request below - the wayward IMF numbers are really ripe for confusion. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:09, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

So how are we to account for nominal gdp per capita growth of 300 % per year? For a country who is under serious economic difficulties? In the same time anywhere but the IMF, the data shows a nominal gdp per capita in the range of 2500 $-5000 $. 46.97.177.37 (talk) 09:19, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

@Wikaviani, you may have seen the note I added ... any further thoughts on improving clarity here? Iskandar323 (talk) 10:43, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, i've seen it, sounds good, i don't think there is any need for further clarification. Thanks very much for the note. Best.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 22:54, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 December 2022

The end of the first sentence should be changed from "is a country in Western Asia" to "is a country that is simultaneously within three different regions of Asia; Western, Central, and Southern". It can then continue reading "It is bordered by...". Iran is not entirely a western asian or middle eastern country and would be wrong to assume so! Ricemaster12 (talk) 17:06, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Not done. Iran is included within the standard definition of "Western Asia", which is basically the Middle East plus the Caucasus minus Egypt. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:02, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Not entirely correct. Iran is only PART of Western Asia as well as Southern Asia and Central Asia. The United Nations classifies Iran as part of Southern Asia along with Pakistan and India. Check out "United Nations Geoscheme for Asia" or (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_geoscheme_for_Asia) on this very website known as Wikipedia and you will see that Iran is classified under Southern Asia, not Western. I am Persian. I know my country's culture and history and can tell you it's not entirely a Western Asian country. Ricemaster12 (talk) 16:45, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Well apparently Wikipedia geography is even more of a mess than I thought it was. According to a line on that article "Western Asia is not to be confused with West Asia" (or precisely Southwest Asia)", so our article Western Asia possibly outlines West Asia (a 'macroregion') under the wrong name? I was personally always happy with 'Middle East'. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:22, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

It is worth noting that even the UN is not internally consistent though, with its different divisions adhering to all sorts of different schemes. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:31, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

It is also worth noting that geographically, Iran borders 3 different regions of Asia at the same time. It’s incorrect to make it exclusively in “Western Asia”. The term Middle East and Western Asia can’t be used interchangeably, right? Same thing with Iran’s location. Western, central, and southern. That’s more accurate. Western ideology is not. Ricemaster12 (talk) 19:27, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

• "The United Nations classifies Iran as part of Southern Asia along with Pakistan and India."

The "UN" consists of various departments/agencies, all of which employ their own definitions. For instance, UNICEF puts Iran into Middle East,[1] the "official" UN map (UN.Geospatial) on South Asia doesn't put Iran into the region,[2] the WHO puts Iran into "Eastern Mediterranean",[3] and the World Bank puts Iran into "MENA".[4] The UNSD is another one of such agencies/departments.

• "I am Persian. I know my country's culture and history and can tell you it's not entirely a Western Asian country."

Even if you were, it doesn't matter one grain, as Wikipedia is solely written using reliable sources and WP:DUE weight. A user's supposed ethnic background is not taken into account. - LouisAragon (talk) 15:52, 12 December 2022 (UTC)

“Iran (pronounced ee-RAHN), formerly known as Persia, is situated at the crossroads of Central Asia, South Asia, and the Arab states of the Middle East.“

This link from National Geographic is more accurate as it states “is situated at the crossroads of Central Asia, South Asia, and the Arab states of the Middle East”.

Iran is surrounded by 3 “Stan” countries (Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan). It’s impossible to geographically categorize the massive country of Iran solely and entirely to West Asia.

It’s worth saying something like “Iran, a country in Western Asia, is the crossroad to Central Asia and South Asia”. Or “Iran, a country that geographically connects west Asia to Central Asia and South Asia”. A little more detail can’t hurt. Any objections?

https://kids.nationalgeographic.com/geography/countries/article/iran Ricemaster12 (talk) 22:51, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

National Geographic Kids is not WP:RS, nor does it weigh up against the arguments and sources I posted earlier. - LouisAragon (talk) 23:44, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Include the northeastern region (Golestan and Khorasan) into the expanded definition of Central Asia. The sentence can be re-worded to "...Iran is a country in Western Asia with its northeastern region of Golestan and Khorasan widely accepted as part of Central Asia". Expanded definition of Central Asia located from the page "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia" Ricemaster12 (talk) 21:38, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Edit semi-protected

In the intro, please add that most of Iran is located on the western part of the Iranian plateau. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Shaded-relief-map-shows-the-location-of-Iran-in-the-Iranian-Plateau_fig1_262185547 2600:100C:A21C:E44E:8DBA:2280:EBCA:EF37 (talk) 22:22, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Not done: When creating edit requests you are required to present what you want a reviewing editor to do specifically. That is to say, you should phrase your request to sound something like "Please change X to Y" or "Please remove/add Y" with X and Y being quoted prose. If adding content, you must also specify where specifically in the article you wish to insert it. —Sirdog (talk) 05:37, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

BC/AD vs BCE/CE

I think it would be appropriate to change all BC/AD to BCE/CE in this article, wouldn't you agree? Repassyz (talk) 20:12, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 March 2023

add Dictatorship in goverment section محمد پارسا حلوائی (talk) 20:56, 11 March 2023 (UTC) can i change the goverment part? i live in iran and i know what goverment do with their people.

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. M.Bitton (talk) 22:50, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Majority of Iranians are not Muslim

While maybe on paper the regime of the Islamic Republic defines its citizens as Muslims, the majority of Irianians isn't (according to the Gamaan survey). The date cited here (99.4% Muslims) is not only obviously wrong, it should come with a warning that official data from the Islamic Republic may be de-facto incorrect or manipulated (in fact, it usually is). Given the attention the Gamaan survey generated (it was reported about by many news agancies), and its higher credibility, it should be cited along with the official numbers issued by the regime. 2A02:2454:9962:AA00:D90E:1066:28DE:F984 (talk) 19:20, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Iran Product Exports (2019).svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:07, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Most welcome to our ceremony Happy eid Mubarak

most welcome to our ceremony Happy eid mubarak 178.248.114.95 (talk) 16:01, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 April 2023

Change the GDP numbers back to the correct ones. the current data is the incorrect data of the imf livestream that was mistankingly addapted to the worldbank data.

Dear Wikipedia,

I am writing to bring to your attention some concerns about the accuracy of the economic figures presented in the Iran article, specifically regarding the reported GDP of Iran. After conducting research and analyzing data, it has been found that the reported GDP of Iran, which is estimated at 400 billion USD, is inaccurate.

One factor contributing to this inaccuracy is the changing currency rate in Iran. The official currency exchange rate and system adjustments made by Iran in April 2023 have affected the conversion rate used to calculate Iran's GDP. The current exchange rate of approximately 50,000 toman per euro or dollar is a significant departure from the official exchange rate used by the World Bank, which may lead to an inaccurate estimation of Iran's GDP.

Moreover, it has been found that the originally reported nominal GDP of Iran at 335 billion USD is incorrect, which further highlights the need for an updated and accurate GDP figure for Iran. The corrected nominal GDP of Iran at current exchange rates is around 1.95 trillion USD, which is significantly higher than the reported nominal GDP.

For instance, according to the SCI, Iran's GDP in the 2020-2021 fiscal year was around 514 trillion rials, which is equivalent to approximately 1.95 trillion USD at the current exchange rate of 50,000 toman per euro or dollar. This is significantly higher than the reported nominal GDP of Iran.

Therefore, relying solely on the originally reported nominal GDP may result in an inaccurate estimation of Iran's economic performance. It is important to consider other sources of data, such as the SCI, and the current exchange rate, to gain a more accurate understanding of Iran's economic situation.

To ensure that the information presented in the Wikipedia article is accurate and reliable, it is essential to cite multiple reliable sources that provide a more comprehensive view of Iran's economic situation. Some sources that support this claim include the Financial Tribune, Bloomberg, Trading Economics, the Statistical Center of Iran, and current exchange rate data.

I hope this information is useful, and I thank you for your attention to this matter.

Sincerely, Kiosio77 (talk) 13:37, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

There was a similar discussion here. Over-emphasis on IMF computations is indeed a problem. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:11, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. It's completely fine to question a data source that has been over-emphasized, but you will need to provide specific alternative sources for each claim you make. Actualcpscm (talk) 11:29, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 May 2023

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Callmemirela 🍁 19:09, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

about the biggest city in iran

In persian Wikipedia,About the largest cities in Iran, Ahvaz is also named;but I don't know why ahvaz is absent to named of the largest city in Iran.I hope you will write ahvaz for the largest city of Iran.beacase ahvaz is one of the most important city in Middle East and Iran and And it is the fifth largest city in Iran and the most populated city in the west of Iran. Motivation10 (talk) 17:56, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

 Iran is a people's country, an Islamic republic ==

More history regarding Iranian Dynasties

Please include images and descriptions of the following Iranian dynasties under the history section. Dynasties include the following: Seleucid, Parthian, sassanid, samanid, saffarid, Seljuk. Also include images of empires that Iran was part of, including Mongolian empire and Tang dynasty Ricemaster12 (talk) 03:18, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

To be clear, this page is overlength and needs trimming. See History of Iran for historical detail. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:43, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

The Tang dynasty never ruled over any part of what is present-day Iran, nor did it have any historic impact on it. - LouisAragon (talk) 13:27, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

You’re right. They didn’t “rule” over Persia/Iran. Still, much historical influence in both Persia and China due to tang dynasty including art forms. Ricemaster12 (talk) 14:48, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Iran's history stretches thousands of years. You must prove why and how the Tang dynasty's influence was supposedly so paramount to the history of Iran to warrant inclusion in the form of "images", and thereby putting it on par with its dynasties such as the Achaemenids, Parthians, Sasanians, Safavids and Qajars. - LouisAragon (talk) 18:55, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Louis, have I said anything about Tang dynasty being on par with Iranian dynasties like the ones you mentioned? No. You’re making this up now. What I am saying however, is that the Tang dynasty has INFLUENCED Persian culture. I made a trip to the MET in New York and even have evidence of my statement. Are you going to continue your rather odd and childish behavior? I believe you have a hard time understanding my statements. Ricemaster12 (talk) 20:25, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

A lot of civilizations have influenced Iran, why does the Tang dynasty merit more attention? And do you have a source about it? --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:01, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello, my apologies. The piece of information I’m referring to was the other way around. Not how the tang dynasty affected Persian ways, but how Persian influence was strong during the tang dynasty.

yes the source is from the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York. The detail is small, but can still be worthy depending on the eye of the beholder. Ricemaster12 (talk) 22:16, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm not so sure, the article is already stuffed with images, and the influence would have to be very noteworthy to merit mention, i.e. why add an image related to the Tang dynasty when there are loads of more relevant images in which the Iranian influence was just as/more noteworthy? Perhaps it could added to a more relevant article? Can you link the source? --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:51, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Tang dynasty's so called "influence" over Iran is negligible and does not merit to be mentioned in this article, it would be misleading for our readers and a bit undue weight.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 22:45, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Geographic location needs an update

Iran is not solely located in West Asia like Syria, Iraq, and other middle eastern countries. If you do the math, over half of its landmass borders Central Asia and South Asia. It is hugged by Turkmenistan and Afghanistan which are both Central Asian countries and bordered by Pakistan which is a South Asian country. It should be updated to better describe the geographic position. The Iranian Plateau is also described as being in West, Central, and South Asia. “Iran is a country located at the crossroads of West, Central, and South Asia” as mentioned by National Geographic would be a better and more accurate description. Ricemaster12 (talk) 21:28, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Being at the crossroads of things doesn't necessarily mean being counted as inside all of them. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:51, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

User:Ricemaster12 attempted to push through these same sort of non-constructive changes as recent as December 2022.[5] I believe they are entering the realm of WP:TENDENTIOUS and should therefore WP:DROPTHESTICK. - LouisAragon (talk) 19:35, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, you’re right. But, Iran is geographically located on the Eurasian plate, not the Arabian plate nor the Indian plate.

Why prevent any edits that PROVE that different countries around the world agree that Iran isn’t solely in west Asia?

Iran also removed itself from the west Asian games and joined Central Asian games. Remind you that Iran counts itself as a Central Asian territory. United Nations counts Iran and Afghanistan as south Asian countries. Why gatekeep the Iran page and prevent any further edits? Even on the Afghanistan page, it describes that it’s both in Central and South Asia. Ricemaster12 (talk) 05:46, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I've added a note on the United Nations geoscheme for Asia, which should hopefully lay this bridge to nowhere thread to rest. The Central Asian Games is about as meaningless geographically as the Eurovision song contest. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:41, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• "Yeah, you’re right. But, Iran is geographically located on the Eurasian plate, not the Arabian plate nor the Indian plate."

And?

• "Why prevent any edits that PROVE that different countries around the world agree that Iran isn’t solely in west Asia? "

You have so far brought zero proper sources that support your claim, so its not gonna happen. You are essentially on a campaign (WP:SPA) as its the only sort of edits you've been making since stepping foot on Wikipedia.

• "Iran also removed itself from the west Asian games and joined Central Asian games. Remind you that Iran counts itself as a Central Asian territory."

So Israel is a European country because it participates in UEFA. Got it.

- LouisAragon (talk) 13:05, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• "I've added a note on the United Nations geoscheme for Asia, which should hopefully lay this bridge to nowhere thread to rest. "

@Iskandar323: Respectfully disagree, and I've reverted it. Please do tell, why should Wikipedia kow-tow to the view of one UN subdepartment (that is, the UNSD), and omit ALL other UN subdepartments? The "UN" consists of various departments/agencies, all of which employ their own definitions. For instance, UNICEF puts Iran into Middle East,[6] the "official" UN map (UN.Geospatial) on South Asia doesn't put Iran into the region,[7] the WHO puts Iran into "Eastern Mediterranean",[8] and the World Bank puts Iran into "MENA".[9] The United Nations Industrial Development Organization (UNIDO) puts it in West Asia as well.[10] The UNSD is just another one of such agencies/departments. Every once in a year or two years, drive-by IPs and accounts hop by to push this POV. I frankly do not believe that they care about improving this article. Its something else they're after. - LouisAragon (talk) 13:12, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

“I’ve reverted it” you mentioned above. See? The fact that UN still places the country under South Asia, regardless of the reason, and you revert it? Ricemaster12 (talk) 20:33, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

For a starters, I've already kowtowed to the fact that geographically speaking, the terminology of the 'Middle East' has generally given way to 'Western Asia'. Meanwhile the MENA region isn't a geographical region so much as a socio-cultural and economic grouping. Secondly, I don't think adding a low-profile note is kowtowing; I think it is a reasonable compromise. It is still a UN designation and it costs little to nothing to add it, but frankly I don't care much either way. I just thought I'd try to break the endless cycle of discussions on it. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:16, 26 May 2023 (UTC

• "Secondly, I don't think adding a low-profile note is kowtowing"

I appreciate your WP:GF efforts Iskander323, but brand new account "Ricemaster12" is playing a fool here on Wikipedia, editorially speaking. Look at their editorial pattern ever since stepping foot on Wikipedia. Their sole concern up to date is to push WP:OR/WP:UNDUE/minority views, and to recycle old discussions wherein they were unable to push through their WP:TENDENTIOUS POV. Every single edit they've made so far has been dedicated to this sole goal.[11] Down below, they are even trying to push Tang dynasty images in articles related to Iran's thousands of years of history. Yes, you heard me right: Tang dynasty!

I have demonstrated with sound evidence that the UNSD constitutes a minority POV, even amongst the UN. Hence, even a note constitutes sheer WP:UNDUE weight. Heck, who has even decided that the UNSD is some sort of holy grail regarding geography? The UNSD even literally says they employ their groupings solely for statistic convenience (The assignment of countries or areas to specific groupings is for statistical convenience and does not imply any assumption regarding political or other affiliation of countries or territories by the United Nations.)[12]

Sir, you’re missing the point entirely. I’m not sure why you’re so opposed to views that don’t agree with your own. Ricemaster12 (talk) 15:00, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

• "I’m not sure why you’re so opposed to views that don’t agree with your own"

I'm not sure why you are pushing a POV without paying attention to Wikipedia's core guidelines--once again (first attempt being December 2022). - LouisAragon (talk) 18:57, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

The information I’m pulling is from legit websites. Ricemaster12 (talk) 20:29, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, this is WP:SYNTH [13] - you need a source that specifically says that. And from what I recall, Iran is still largely considered to be in Western Asia. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:02, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Would you be able to find and tag the portion of Wikipedia’s guidelines that say minority views are not allowed to be mentioned? Ricemaster12 (talk) 00:21, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Well, I never said that. There's more nuance to it; WP:WEIGHT. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:26, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Apologies. I meant to ask @LouisAragon. As far as geographic location goes, I want to include different sources on the Iran page that includes the country in Inner Asia and South Asia. Some institutions like University of Toronto and Sinor Research Institute include Iran in Central/Inner Asia. It’s worth noting that. Perhaps we can include a citation after “a country located in Western Asia” that describes how it’s not always viewed as a west Asian country.

I believe this to be a proper solution for the matter with sources to reenforce my statement. Ricemaster12 (talk) 03:17, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

• "like University of Toronto "

So because Toronto University includes Iran as well as Korea and Kalmykia in their Inner/Central Asian Studies program, due to their historical signifnance, they are suddenly geographically part of Central Asia too? Iran Studies are invariably included in Middle Eastern/Near Eastern programs at the world's foremost universities that are renowned for history and social studies, including Harvard[14] SOAS[15], and yes, Toronto University too.[16] Your assertions regarding the UN were already debunked above, but this is becoming even worse WP:SYNTH. By the way, the University of Toronto's website even literally contradicts your assertion, as it says Central Asia is surrounded by countries such as Iran, thus explicitly refraining from saying that it is part of the region.[17]

Quote: "Although the term Central and Inner Asia is used to represent the enormous territory surrounded by Russia, China, the Indian subcontinent, Iran, the Caucasus Mountains and the Caspian Sea, the region had little visibility in the West until 1990 because it was divided between the spheres of Soviet and Chinese control and influence."

- LouisAragon (talk) 13:57, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

These were rather easy and quick finds:

• "[The Middle East] generally includes the Arab countries of the eastern Arab world, Turkey, Iran and Israel but, conventionally, excludes Afghanistan and Pakistan." -- Fred Halliday (2010). Shocked and Awed: How the War on Terror and Jihad Have Changed the English Language. Bloomsbury Publishing
• "No standard definition precisely outlines the Middle East; it is generally accepted as comprising the countries of the Arabian Peninsula, Cyprus, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Palestinian territories, Syria, and Turkey.". NatGeo[18]
• "To the east, Iran, as a Gulf state, offers a generally accepted limit to the Middle East. However, Afghanistan, also a Muslim state, is then left in isolation. It is not accepted as a part of Central Asia and it is clearly not part of the Indian subcontinent" -- Ewan W. Anderson; Liam D. Anderson (4 December 2013). An Atlas of Middle Eastern Affairs. Routledge. p. 5.

- LouisAragon (talk) 13:57, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I understand what you’re saying. All I’m saying however, is that even though it’s accepted that Iran is typically part of the Middle East, West Asia, Southwest Asia, it is still sometimes accepted as being partly in other regions, seen in other sources, regardless if that very source includes Iran in multiple definitions.

The fact that there’re contradictions even from the same source still proves my point. Ricemaster12 (talk) 15:14, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

So far, i don't see any legit source labeling Iran as a Central Asian country. On Wikipedia, we go by what the mainstream of reliable published sources say, thus Iran is not a Central-Asian country. @Iskandar323: Sorry, but there is no need to seek for a "compromise" here, since brand new editor "Ricemaster" has simply failed to justify his claims by providing several reliable sources that support them. @Ricemaster: i think you should consider droping the stick.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 22:41, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Well, here’s one for you.

https://sinor.indiana.edu/about/what-is-inner-asia/index.html.

Inner Asia includes Iran and apparently, Inner Asia is synonymous with Central Asia. This is just one but there’s still plenty. Ricemaster12 (talk) 00:20, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

The source does not say that inner Asia is synonymous with Central Asia, you say that, this is a clear cut case of original research. Also it says that inner Asia means Central Asia and adjacent parts of Iran, Afghanistan, etc ..., this does not mean that all Iran or Afghanistan is comprised in Inner Asia, rather only parts of these countries.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:57, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Did I say the ENTIRETY of Iran is in Central Asia? No. I said PARTLY from the above statement. This is a source from a university. How is it not reliable? Ricemaster12 (talk) 03:27, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

Also, would you mind providing a link from Wikipedia that says we aren’t allowed to add a section that includes non-mainstream information, even if it’s a reliable source? Ricemaster12 (talk) 00:23, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

You still fail to provide legit sources supporting your POV ...---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:58, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

The source above is from a university institution. Ricemaster12 (talk) 23:48, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

So, if i'm not mistaken, this is all about including a minority view about some parts of Iran being located in Central Asia in this article, this is absolutely irrelevant for our readers and thus, not inclusion worthy. We're done here.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 01:03, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Minority view, yes. Irrelevant? No. Since when are minority views not allowed? Ricemaster12 (talk) 01:06, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

We're not here for Wikilawyering. Are minority views allowed on Wikipedia ? yes, if WP:WEIGHT is respected AND if there is a consensus about the relevance of the inclusion. Do you have a consensus here about the inclusion of some irrelevant sentence like "x% of reliable sources say that x% of iranian territory is considered to be part of Central Asia" (with x being small ...) ? clearly, no. The article about Central Asia already gives some maps in which a little part of Khurasan (Iran) is sometimes considered as a part of Central Asia, this is probably relevant for that article, but not here. I think we're done here.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:52, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

This part of the description is a lie

though ultimate authority is vested in an autocratic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.213.17.239 (talk) 22:59, 16 June 2023 (UTC) The Iranian government is authoritarian, and has attracted widespread criticism for its significant constraints and abuses against human rights and civil liberties, including several violent suppressions of mass protests, unfair elections, and limited rights for women and children.

Too long

This page has more than 100kB or readable prose: this is too long and needs addressing. Given that there are already separate History, Politics and Government articles, the obvious way to reduce the page would be to trim these here. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:10, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello,

I agree with your statement. @LouisAragon, the only person who can apparently make edits, should trim the sections you mentioned. Ricemaster12 (talk) 17:15, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the article would be "improved" by reducing it. In fact, adding more to the geography section seems important; there is very little describing the size, importance and location of rivers in the country, for example. Just having an article that can be downloaded in one piece does not make it more valuable or authoritative. Lenberttp (talk) 22:56, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Propaganda article

This article supports Iranian nationalism and Iranian government. No mention to killings this regime done from 44 years ago till now. No mention that for buying a 30$ product we should work 1 month! “Yes yes! Iran is the best country in the world and has no problems!” This this what this article saying. 91.98.59.20 (talk) 02:54, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

no mention at all? Westerosi456H (talk) 16:44, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2023

Category that should be added. Category:Member states of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation

Iran is now a member state of Shanghai Cooperation Organization.

--- 184.185.243.237 (talk) 19:49, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 22:02, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

List Iran as 9th-most populous country in Asia

Iran has a population of 89 million people, making it the 9th- most populous country in Asia. It’s the 17th-most populous country in the world, 9th-most populous country in Asia, and the second in the Middle East. Ricemaster12 (talk) 17:16, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

I have removed the request for a third opinion. See WP:3OR: "Before making a request here, be sure that the issue has been thoroughly discussed on the article talk page." voorts (talk/contributions) 00:15, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

What if the article’s talk page is being ignored purposely? Ricemaster12 (talk) 00:20, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

If an editor is making disruptive edits, try ANI. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

The article already mentions that it's the 17th-most populous country in the world and the second most in the Middle East, but those are arguably much more noteworthy than "9th-most populous in Asia", which (imo) isn't something special compared to the other two. --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:28, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

I’m not sure if this has anything to do with being “special”, but wouldn’t it be fair to include that point? Is there an issue including it? Does it hurt the page in any way? Is it misinformation? It’s just a neutral fact that provides better insight. Ricemaster12 (talk) 00:32, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Imo the question is more like this: is it relevant enough to be in the lede? I'm sure that are lot of facts about Iran, but do they deserve to be in the lede? --HistoryofIran (talk) 00:35, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, the lede includes the physical area the country covers and includes in parenthesis “(0.63 million square miles)”. This is a detail that technically can be dismissed since it was already addressed. If that can be included, why can’t the population size in relation to the rest of the continent that it lies on be included? Ricemaster12 (talk) 00:42, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

 Comment: Now that I know what this dispute is about, I don't really have an opinion, and I think this is a close question / almost a matter of preference, but I think the relevant guideline you'll want to look at is MOS:LEADREL. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:39, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Comment : Iran being the 9th most populous country in Asia is not relevant here, we have a global view (this country is the 17th most populous in the world) and a local view (second most populous in the Middle-East), that's fair enough.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:24, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Why is it not relevant? Is Iran not in Asia? Ricemaster12 (talk) 03:11, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

That's not what i said, read what people say.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 00:07, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

I can read. But from what I understand here, is that you think it's not important enough to include even though it's correct.

What if, for example, Ukraine is the largest country in Europe and the 4th largest in the world, but it's simplified to "Ukraine is the largest country in Eastern Europe and the 4th largest in the world" (just Eastern Europe? What about in relation to the rest of the continent?) Obviously that's not true and it's just an example, but you understand the idea.

On the Ukraine page it says "second-largest European country", not "second largest country in Eastern Europe". Same concept can be applied here. Seems very nitpicky, yes, but details matter. Ricemaster12 (talk) 01:45, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't care about how Ukraine is described in its article, we're talking about Iran, not Ukraine, see WP:OTHER. ---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 00:21, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

iran windy or springy in sanskrit 176.65.96.36 (talk) 08:02, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This article seems to be lacking adequate sources in it's (top) section

I am not entirely familiar with wikipedia's rules on sourcing but it seems bizarre that this article has almost none in it's (top) section. The rest of the article seems very well sourced so this choice is odd. Personally I would love to know the source for the following claim: "Under the reign of Nader Shah in the 18th century, Iran presided over the most powerful military in the world", not because I dispute it but that it is very interesting. Aphrodite=Ishtar (talk) 17:04, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Was about to write a suggestion about the same thing! Hopefully it gets fixed. Jaeyming (talk) 15:31, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Sources are not required for the lede per WP:LEDECITE. Everything that's mentioned in the lede is also covered in the body of the article and is supported by sources. As for the Nader Shah claim; you can find the source(s) supporting it in this section of the body[19]. - LouisAragon (talk) 23:04, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Image additions

I think some pics are good but Cyrus-Gg1 your overwhelming the page as per MOS:IMAGELOC. Thus far the mass additions have been reverted 4/5 times. Cyrus-Gg1 can you to pls tlak with us here. Moxy- 12:59, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Adding images

Hello. Sorry if I put too much images, I'm kind of new to Wikipedia and I just want to publish some info about my homeland (: and I don't know the rules about how many images can someone publish, can you please give me a number? Thanks (: Cyrus-Gg1 (talk) 19:13, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Please discontinue your disruptive editing. Please only make edits that do not violate WP:RS or any other Wikipedia guidelines. WikiAmerican1 (talk) 22:40, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

"Persia (Iran)" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Persia (Iran) has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 November 20 § Persia (Iran) until a consensus is reached. Steel1943 (talk) 23:08, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 December 2023

Proposed change to the 4th paragraph, final sentence. The sentence "Iran is holding the world's 5th place in terms of Intangible Cultural Heritage" would read more naturally as "Iran is 5th globally in terms of Intangible Cultural Heritage" or "Iran places 5th globally in terms of Intangible Cultural Heritage", maintaining the same citations. 194.33.196.2 (talk) 10:27, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done DigitalChutney (talk) 23:29, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 December 2023

This section has been edited by a user and its source has been distorted and no source has been placed for it. Please, whoever has access, revert this edit.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1191286817 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1190161530 ABGLV (talk) 09:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

@Callanecc: You blocked this user, so please return this manipulation. Thanks. ABGLV (talk) 09:11, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:34, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2024

45.84.41.69 (talk) 12:40, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —*Fehufangą (✉ Talk · ✎ Contribs) 13:38, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Persia

Iran was historically known as "Persia". Not today. I think it's better we change the beginning line to "Iran, also historically known as Persia". Seeing as no news source for example refers to Iran as Persia anymore. Pro translator (talk) 12:38, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

No need. Persia translates to Iran in Persian language, and vice versa, both are the same with zero difference. Greeks called Iran Persia, and a lot of westerners still know Iran as Persia thorough their study/school books etc. A change will significantly harm the etymology of the term. Cyrus-Gg1 (talk) 19:40, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Religion section needs addressed

I'm sure we've all read the many reports and polls of the rise agnosticism/atheism/non-Islamic worldviews in Iran, but the article lists prominently the clearly state-manipulated "90+% Muslim" stats. We shouldn't be parroting the lines of the Islamic Republic and should make it more clear that Iran is a lot more diverse than the State propaganda is putting out.

Could this be addressed?

Please don't generalize the population of Iran as mostly Muslim, as it is not accurate. Contrary to your statement, many people in Iran tend to distance themselves from Islam. Additionally, Iran is home to various religions; it is the Islamic Republic's authoritarian regime that attempts to portray the majority as Muslim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.95.130.15 (talk) 17:07, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

We are not Moslems

Please don't generalize the population of Iran as mostly Muslim 174.95.130.15 (talk) 17:09, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Change first picture of Iran

Iran has lots of beautiful places, but you chose not good picture to introduce Iran in first picture, please change it, the second picture is better for show of Iran 174.95.130.15 (talk) 17:13, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Recent reverts

@HereIAmNow1379: I have undone your mass revert for several reasons:

• You restored a significant volume of unsourced and poorly sourced content. Per WP:BURDEN you are required to provide reliable sourcing in order to restore this content
• Image captions are meant to be succinct, typically no more than three lines; more detail should be provided in the body, at linked articles, or on the image description page
• There should not be more images than the volume of text can support, to avoid issues with article layout. Not everything discussed needs an image here.
• You are adding a lot of content and detail to an article that is already quite long. The material here should provide only a high-level overview of the topic, with details left to the child articles. The articles that you raised as comparators, Poland and China, are both significantly more succinct than this one. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:45, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Have not had time to really look but [20] Moxy- 16:35, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is truly useless. How is it possible that people put so much time and effort publishing useful information and deleted so easily?! If no one does anything, everyone's efforts will be wasted. So what I do is this:

1- I will remove some of the existing images and replace them with more important ones

2- I will put the information that was previously on the images on the the article body without the images

In this way, the rules will not be violated and I request you to please do not delete them so that the editing works of all users remain on the article. HereIAmNow1379 (talk) 17:19, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Can no longer load full article on my phone to help trim...can only load lead ...18305 words is a huge problem. Moxy- 18:34, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 March 2024

Hello. There is a problem on the article that needs an immediate fix, there are two different religion statistics that are going against each other:

1- The one on the infobox at the top is wrong, sourced with unreliable websites, one of them being an opposition website (Iran International).

2- The one on the demographics section is the official general census by the country, and its even mentioned here.

Please correct the religion numbers on the infobox and match it with the official numbers on the demographics section, having two completely different statistics on the article will undoubtedly confuse the readers. Farnaj57 (talk) 10:13, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Note: An edit request detailing this is already open above. Please add on it to if you feel the need to instead of making a new one. Thank you!
— Urro^{[talk][edits]} ⋮ 17:49, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh I didn't know that one is related to this topic! So I'm not the first to ask for this. Can you please do this and finish it once and for all? it's a big problem. A lot of users will be grateful. Farnaj57 (talk) 17:56, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Religion numbers and unreliable survey

For many years until this edit three days ago data from CIA's country factbook has been used in this article's Infobox under religion section. Articles of other countries like Syria use CIA factbook as well. The new source used three days ago is an unreliable online survey from an unknown website called "GAMAAN" with dubious results. For example, it claims 7.7% of Iran population (87 million) are Zoroastrian which would be more than 6 million people, while the number of Zoroastrians across the world is no more than ~ 120,000! This source has zero reliability to be used on Wikipedia, It is not clear who with what expertise has conducted such a survey and how it can make such big claims for an entire country. Either official numbers have to be used mentioning that they are official, or if there are concerns with those numbers we can remove all the stats, It is not madatory to have percentages for religious breakdown when reliable data is not available. Just look at Lebanon e.g. Drako (talk) 20:53, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

You keep contradicting yourself. Are you interested in what's verifiable or in what's official? I've already pointed out to you that there's nothing "official" about CIA estimates because the CIA is not some sort of official decreer of the world's numbers. Largoplazo (talk) 21:02, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Either remove the section or use reliable data. In the lack of reliable data, at least official numbers are more noteworthy than an unknown unreliable weblog with dubious credibility. Of course it needs to be declared that it is just "official" so reader is aware. Drako (talk) 21:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Gamaan is not a ‘unreliable weblog’ with ‘dubious credibility’. It is written by political scientists from across the top universities in Europe, has outlined its methodology clearly, and has been cited by numberous international organisations. In addition, it has won global awards by leading research associations. This is made clear should you spend time researching them. AryanTuranica (talk) 21:11, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Examples of citations: The Economist, the Atlantic Council, The Wall Street Journal, The Guardian, the Independent and the LSE Research Papers (the fourth most prestigious research institute and political science university in the world), to name a few. A dubious and unreliable source would never be cited to such extent. AryanTuranica (talk) 21:15, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Those imply it is just an online poll of a few hundred people. It is by no means legit to extrapolate to an entire nation especially when it contradicts obvious facts. Drako (talk) 21:22, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

You seem unfamiliar with how data is collected within political science. A poll is the most used and reliable method by Governments, so long as their methodology and shortcomings is provided. Gamaan has done this, which you would know had you done any research. ‘Especially contradicts obvious facts.’ What exactly do you mean by this? That 99% of the Iranian population is Muslism? That the regime’s well-known propaganda tool is more reliable than what actual political scientists and Iranians have clearly expressed? Such methodology can be extrapolated to an entire nation, and is the methodology used by international organisations and Governments. An additional element is found in the case of Iran: fear. Iranians cannot exress their religious beliefs freely to government agencies in fear of backlash and oppression. Gamaan’s methodology accounts for this and is the most reliable source when it comes to Iranian’s true beliefs. It may not have been cited by Wikipedia, but it has been by government agencies, local think-tanks and NGOs. AryanTuranica (talk) 21:32, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

One poll is not definitive. PEW is also a poll, which says 78% of Iranians believe religion to be very important in their lives. So which one should we rely on?

What I mean by that is 6 million Zoroastrians living in Iran is a big claim for which there is no evidence. Fear of Iranians answering polls is probably true, but it does not justify pretending dubious polls and numbers provide a reliable picture of Iran. That undermines Gamaan's numbers too.

All I am saying is that according to Wikipedia rules multiple credible sourcers are needed to back up any such claims. Drako (talk) 21:40, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

It is a poll. One of many. And it has not info who is behind it, no page in Wikipedia, no reliable sources use it, it has no credibility to dispute reliable sources like CIA factbook which are in wide use. What international organization are you talking about? Does UN and WHO use its results? We are not here to assess its methodology. We need to find what reliable sources verify as credible. And this particular poll has no wide consensus on the big claims it makes. It fits definition of a questionable source as per WP:NOTRELIABLE. Remember, as per WP:EXCEPTIONAL, Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources. Claiming there are 6 million Zoroastrians is a huge claim, for which there is no evidence.

. Drako (talk) 21:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Author of this online poll himself admits "when the relevant question was phrased to focus on their religion rather than on their personal beliefs and faith, the number of participants professing Zoroastrianism went down significantly." So these numers at best, are raw data for a particular sample and cannot be claimed to be representative of the entire nation. Until and unless credible references, like encyclopedias, cite same numbers, it is not wise nor reliable to refer to its numbers as reliable. Drako (talk) 21:32, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

We are not talking about their article on Zoroastrianism, but their 2020 Survey. It has also been cited by numerous organisations which I have already named, but which you are clearly ignoring. There is no point continuing this discussion when it is clear you are uninterested in facts. Great job spewing an authoritarian regime’s propaganda! Very reliable and factual indeed. AryanTuranica (talk) 21:34, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Their article is describing findings of that Survey in detail. The article itself is casting doubt such numbers are a true representation of Iranians' religious mixup. You need to stop ad hominem attacks right there, I am warning you. Drako (talk) 21:43, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that what many people consider to be reliable sources about this specific topic are either official surveys from the Iranian regime, which are all but reliable or some vague estimates from other sources, often reliable, like CIA but who have no ground to give reliable figures here. Seriously, Iranian population being 99,4% Muslim ? who can belive this ?---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:41, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

• Given this discussion and the following sections, I think the most appropriate resolution would be to remove the section from the infobox and discuss the differing estimates in the article text. This allows proper context to be given to each and avoids presenting one as the absolute fact when that is disputed. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:21, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

  I endorse. Drako (talk) 08:18, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

  I support this decision, but unfortunately some people still revert it. I think it's better to take action yourself so that no one changes it, do something please, it's getting really annoying. Farnaj57 (talk) 11:45, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't see the problem with gamaan.org. The organization is based in The Netherlands, calling themselves Group for Analyzing and Measuring Attitudes in Iran (GAMAAN). The group is run by scholars. GAMAAN is cited by many as an authoritative source. The Voice of America cited them,[21] FiveThirtyEight cited them,[22] Tony Blair cited them,[23] the American Foreign Policy Council cited them,[24] as did New York magazine.[25] The University of Utrecht praised them for providing an accurate counterpoint to official Iran government numbers.[26] GAMAAN is always described as authoritative, a useful reminder that Iranian propaganda is not the final word on the attitudes of Iranians.

The numbers are fine in the infobox. Binksternet (talk) 16:35, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

What I'm seeing here is users' propaganda, not Iranian. That number is literally sourced with an Anti-Iranian-opposition website called "Iran International", not an "organization". Are we really going to trust an opposition website over the country's *official* general census? The info on the infobox is flat out wrong, and that is a fact since we have the official number. The correct info is in the demographics section, and its even mentioned here.

Most country pages don't even include religion numbers on the infobox to avoid what is happening right now: setting the talk pages on fire. That number will confuse the readers, and no one even cares... Farnaj57 (talk) 17:33, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

"No one even cares" except all the people here who are "on fire" regarding the new numbers. You contradict yourself.

The group we are trusting is GAMAAN who are putting together various polls of Iranian attitudes. Their methodology is solid enough for Wikipedia. Binksternet (talk) 23:52, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Solid enough to present in the relevant section, certainly. But I'm not seeing a reason to present their number as primary. I've removed it per above. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:10, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I think the figures should remain in the infobox, I don't see why you removed that bunch of sourced content.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 06:11, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

There are multiple sources which disagree, and when there are multiple sources which disagree it's not appropriate to assert a single truth as you have now done. This isn't required to be included, and it makes more sense in this case not to. Nikkimaria (talk) 06:17, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that the "multiple sources" in question are often unreliable IRI sources ...---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 18:32, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

When did the Iranian government, which is intent on Islam remaining the state religion, become a reliable source as to religious demographic data? Please don't respond that it's official, because that's meaningless, even Orwellian. Largoplazo (talk) 02:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

The statics on religion section from infobox is completely wrong

Those religion numbers on the infobox is baseless and wrong, Iran is 90% Shia, and its mentioned on the demographics section which is heavily sourced. Its even mentioned here. Please someone change it to the previous statics which was the official one, and was previously discussed. Watchers should be more careful so that anyone does not change important information easily. ArmanOh (talk) 09:16, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

This is already being discussed above. Largoplazo (talk) 02:14, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 March 2024

Please remove the religion section in the infobox, its already mentioned in the demographics section. Saeed.1348 (talk) 23:50, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

•  Not done: Infobox is supposed to summarize the article. Section is appropriate.  // Timothy :: talk  23:57, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

  1- The one on the infobox at the top is wrong, sourced with unreliable websites, one of them being an opposition website (Iran International).

  2- The one on the demographics section is the official general census by the country, and its even mentioned here.

  Please correct the religion numbers on the infobox and match it with the official numbers on the demographics section, having two completely different statistics on the article will undoubtedly confuse the readers. Farnaj57 (talk) 18:09, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Its good to have it for sure, but those numbers are completely wrong. Iran is a Shia majority country, its even mention on the demographics section. A recent edit broke all the information. Please change it to the previous statistics, which was the official one. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Saeed.1348 (talk • contribs) 00:17, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with the use of "opposition" websites, which are often more reliable than those of the Iranian gov.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 06:13, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Let's not have four different discussion about the same topic going on on this page at the same time. Largoplazo (talk) 02:15, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

false information

Unfortunately, religion statistics are wrong and edited without any source and are very ambiguous Hkigssdwnb (talk) 18:02, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Please see above and don't reinitiate the same discussion that has already been initiated on this page four times in the past week or so. Largoplazo (talk) 02:16, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

15 Year Old Edit?

If you go back to September 2010, this image was there. Now, out of nowhere, we have an editor that had a eureka moment to delete it. I vote to keep it in another 25 years!

Edit in question (Under the Government and politics section):

“

Iran's syncretic political system combines elements of an Islamic theocracy with vetted democracy.

” Twillisjr (talk) 17:24, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

It's included in Government of Iran, and more appropriately placed there. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:51, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

15 years of editors and traffic concurring that it belongs on the main page says otherwise. Twillisjr (talk) 13:58, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Simply being longstanding is not a rationale for retention. The proposed image is illegible at default size and conveys information appropriately expressed in prose. We cannot indiscriminately include every potentially relevant image. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:20, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Upon all the red and mass deletions of content in the recent history of the article shows what you are all about. Hope other editors come here and stop what you are doing.Ive got a delete button for the entirety of Wikipedia, wanna push it? Bet you would! Twillisjr (talk) 14:52, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

User:Nikkimaria is doing a great job at cleaning up the article. Moxy🍁 14:57, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Moxy, trivia: Who is the Founder of Anonymous? Twillisjr (talk) 15:58, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

We all do different things to improve the encyclopedia...some editors are more geared towards academic endeavors then others. Moxy🍁 02:04, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

After 15 years of edits, with a multitude of editors writing in bits and pieces in an absence of complete editorial coordination and sometimes at cross-purposes, a shaggy article NEEDS a run-through to smooth it down and make it flow in a cohesive manner and remove excessive detail and redundancy. And the article is still too large, see WP:Article size — Preceding unsigned comment added by Largoplazo (talk • contribs) 02:26, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Persian miniature (?) enigma

Court scene.

Help! I cannot find a reference for this image. It is claimed as "Fatimid" (but this is extremely unlikely in my opinion, the style is more like 14th century Ilkhanid or Jalayarid) and currently appears in the Arabic miniature article. Can someone confirm that the language of the text in the miniature is Persian, rather than Arabic? I would personally bet for a version of the Great Mongol Shahnameh. Any thoughts? Any RS reference for this image? पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 14:19, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 March 2024

Hello. Some information needs to be updated and improved:

1- According to the 2024 statistics, Iran is now the world's 14th military power. The current information in the military section is sourced with the same website but its dated to 2023, so all you have to do is just update the info and put the 2024 data. https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.php

2- In the "medieval period" section, the image of Falak-ol-Aflak Castle has zero information, only the name of the castle is written. Add this text to the image (with link to the castle's name, Khorramabad city and Sasanian Empire): "Falak-ol-Aflak in Khorramabad, built in 240–270 AD during the Sasanian Empire."

3- At the beginning of the article, add a bold "(IRI)" next to the Islamic Republic of Iran. This is the country's definition, and multiple pages like China have this.

4- At the begninig of the "Government and politics" section, a very short explanation has been written, one which is already available in the human rights section. Please remove it.

5- At the end of "top", the word "people of Iran" is bold for no reason, please fix it.

Thank you! Saeed.1348 (talk) 16:01, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I've made the edits you requested to Iran's Wikipedia page. Praxeria (talk) 08:11, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

 Already done Jonathan Deamer (talk) 20:06, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Do NOT add new info unless you HAVE to.

Hey folks! I just wanted to say that if you're about to make an edit, please improve unpon the already-existing information as much as possible, and do not create new sections or more texts unless you have to. This article is definitely one of the heaviest among all the country pages, and long-time contributors are doing their best to keep the article's size as low as possible. If an extremely important news related to Iran has happened, add it to the artcile, otherwise, please aviod adding more texts. Thank you! Farnaj57 (talk) 23:18, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi. Of the material you removed in this edit, two parts were from existing material which I had actually edited to be smaller, while at the same time being more detailed. The 14.3% irreligious figure I think is especially important to contextualise the following Gamaan survey which puts those without a religion at a much higher (IMHO, less credible) number, and because this would be the largest non-Muslim minority if correct. If one of these claims is to be removed for brevity, I would make it the Gamaan survey. At the same time, I think this religion section is already quite small as it is and both can fit.

The one addition I made which did increase the size was the religious freedom score. That I think is important simply for its heavy significance, and and to contextualise the later point about Baha'i persecution.

If the problem is specifically that the images are overflowing the section itself, as you say in your edit message, then the more obvious solution would be to remove one of these four asides currently occupying such a small section. It seems hard to justify having so many, when the section itself has to be so small. Won't removing text from the section in fact only make the image problem worse?

As for the claim about Yarsani population, I don't think that source is very reliable, but it is worth including a proper estimate of the population. The Yarsani article itself gives academic sources of half to one million.

The final paragraph about Armenian church buildings is the paragraph that I would argue for condensing the most, if need be. It seems odd to mention specific buildings, when no buildings are mentioned for any other religion. This paragraph, on buildings, within a demographics section, is actually the largest paragraph. That doesn't make sense.

With this in mind I will try to restore the content while not increasing the overall size. Fedjmike (talk) 00:32, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Spelling error

Please correct the correct usage of the word 'naval' under the military section. Naval = military. Navel = belly button.

2600:1700:5E40:5920:E7:F147:C9B0:C48C (talk) 00:08, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done. Thanks for catching that. Binksternet (talk) 04:16, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 April 2024

Last paragraph of overview/introduction includes the following:

"...ranks 5th globally in the number inscriptions of Intangible Cultural Heritage..."

Should insert "of" between "number" and "inscriptions". Meldefon (talk) 10:44, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 11:19, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Request for permission to edit

Request for edit permission to make the following changes under the section Iran#1951–1978: Mosaddegh, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi:

• Move the link to Israeli bombing of the Iranian embassy in Damascus to a more appropriate subsection farther down; and
• Insert a newline before “=== Iranian Revolution ===” so it is recognized and rendered properly as a subsection header

—Arrandale Westmere (talk) 03:10, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 April 2024

"A proloynged and gradual process of..." should be "A prolonged and gradual process of...".

This spelling mistake is in the "Mediaeval period and Iranian Intermezzo" section. Samuel Christy (talk) 02:04, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

• Thanks. Drmies (talk) 02:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 April 2024

"It possess the world's 14th strongest military." should be "It possesses the world's 14th strongest military."

This is in the Military subsection. Samuel Christy (talk) 15:55, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done Jamedeus (talk) 17:42, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 May 2024

Change km2 to km² Dadaaaaaa (talk) 21:52, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for noticing that! Myrealnamm (💬talk · ✏️contribs) at 22:14, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Propaganda for the Iranian government

While Iran's economy has collapsed and absolute poverty in the country has reached 85% and people cannot afford to buy milk or bread, this article shows Iran as an economic superpower. It also has strange references to ancient knowledge and technologies! In the military sector and judicial system, Iran is shown as a free country with acceptable voting! It is interesting to me how many novice users were able to do this in a few months with this article. They turned Wikipedia into a propaganda site for the Iranian government. Excellent! Can you guys please, at least mention human rights in the country?! They are killing women and children just because they not wearing hijab. FreeZoneF (talk) 01:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Human rights violations are already mentioned, and as you have linked there is an article here on that. This is about Iran which has a very long history dating a couple thousand years before the US was created. And there exists a large amount of fault to go around on their current circumstances. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:42, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

1- The economic data are facts by the IMF, all well-sourced.

2- Human rights violations are already mentioned both at the top of the article, and on the human rights section.

3- How people of a country with a 0.780 HDI "cannot afford to buy milk or bread"?

If you have an editing request, make a reasonable one. Wikipedia is not a place to just complain...

Farnaj57 (talk) 22:35, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Reverted trim

This paragraph was removed [27],l it is brief and well referenced. I agree details should go into a child article, but a mention of it here with a wikilink to a more detailed article should be kept.  // Timothy :: talk  23:33, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Executions

Iran executed at least 834 people in 2023, a 43 percent increase compared to 2022, according to the annual report by Iran Human Rights (IHRNGO) and Together Against the Death Penalty (ECPM) 2A00:A041:3723:7A00:8097:F5AD:2B1D:1FC3 (talk) 14:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

They didn't even mentioned such things in the article. This article turned into a propaganda for the Iranian government. The thing is, i cannot even edit it. FreeZoneF (talk) 00:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 July 2024

Change the format of the total nominal GDP number format from $464,181 billion to $464.181 billion for consistency with the total PPP GDP number and for consistency with other country articles. As1999610 (talk) 00:41, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 15:37, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 July 2024

Hey there,

You may have been concerned about the recent elections in Iran. Today as it was announced Mr Masoud Pezeshkian won the elections therefore it's a good idea to change the President part from "Mohammad Mokhber" to "Masoud Pezeshkian". Good Regards RezaEzzati Rezaezatiofficial (talk) 07:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Hey! The template has been updated, but for the infobox, we'll wait until he takes the office. Farnaj57 (talk) 15:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 July 2024

"Hardliner Ebrahim Raisi ran for president again in 2021, succeeding Hassan Rouhani. During Raisi's term, Iran intensified uranium enrichment, hindered international inspections, joined SCO and BRICS, supported Russia in its invasion of Ukraine andrestored diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia."

Punctuation: andrestored -> missing space between and restored. Paragraph ===Since 1990===

change andrestored to and restored Cfried82 (talk) 07:32, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Left guide (talk) 05:18, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Please include a photo of Persepolis

Please include a photo of Persepolis as the first image of Iran because it represents the identity of the country. Avoid using a mosque, as Islam was introduced to Iran forcibly through Arab invasions and many people do not accept it. 142.189.34.60 (talk) 16:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Linking

Per MOS:SOB, we should avoid grouping multiple links together to look like a single link. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:16, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

History

What happened here to history section ?....article trim going in wrong direction. What should be trimed is things like odd job description sections like 4.1 Supreme Leader 4.2 President 4.3 Guardian Council 4.4 Supreme National Security Counci and mass cut to Economy......good examples can be seen at WP:COUNTRYSIZEMoxy🍁 14:41, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Is this a travel brochure?

This article reads like an advertisement and is not accurate. The nation of Iran did not exist in 625 BC. The Median Kingdom did. Iran was not "unified as a nation." The Median Kingdom, which grew into an empire contained what is now the territory of modern day Iran, but Iran itself was not a nation in 625 BC. That is just one example, most of the article twists history to make it seem like the modern republic has existed for thousands of years, and that is not accurate. 134.167.1.1 (talk) 13:58, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 September 2024

I want to eliminate the gap between the {{other uses}} and the {{Redirect-distinguish}} by changing some code from:

{{Short description|Country in West Asia}}
{{Other uses}}
{{Use American English|date=January 2022}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=May 2024}}
{{Redirect-distinguish-for|Persia|Persis}}

to:

{{Short description|Country in West Asia}}
{{Other uses}}
{{Redirect-distinguish-for|Persia|Persis}}
{{Use American English|date=January 2022}}
{{Use dmy dates|date=May 2024}}

This changes it from:

For other uses, see Talk:Iran/Archive 20 (disambiguation).

"Persia" redirects here. Not to be confused with Persis. For other uses, see Persia (disambiguation).

to:

For other uses, see Talk:Iran/Archive 20 (disambiguation).

"Persia" redirects here. Not to be confused with Persis. For other uses, see Persia (disambiguation).

See the shorter gap? This is caused by the removal of extra spaces by making the two templates immediately adjacent. Ignore the "Talk:Iran (disambiguation)", that is just a result of this bring on the talk page. Altendo 04:12, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

 Done Bunnypranav (talk) 05:41, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello,dear friends.

Why are the Sassanid,and Parthian Empires missing from the formation section? 151.241.99.162 (talk) 19:33, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Sasanian and partyhian empire

Where are the asanian and parthyhian empire 5.121.54.34 (talk) 09:46, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Capitalization error.

Please change Presidential to presidential, "Iran is officially governed as a unitary Islamic Republic with a Presidential system,...." AJ Santaella (talk) 18:16, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Persia

iran or persia 5.121.54.34 (talk) 09:34, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Both names can be used interchangeably. "Iran" is used for the current status of the region, while "Persia" is used for the historical status. AJ Santaella (talk) 18:18, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Select better pictures of Iran

Please share photos of Iran that showcase both its historical heritage and modernity. The first image you selected is of a very unattractive mosque in a desert area, while we have much more beautiful and magnificent mosques, such as those in Isfahan. Do you think this choice is intentional and meant to misrepresent Iran? 2605:B100:161:9E71:5015:18E5:C223:9DBB (talk) 20:41, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

What specific images would you propose? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:31, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Secularization in Iran

Please add this to the section 'Religion', it is important, that there is information for people, to understand, that the official numbers are wrong.

It is important to note that under Islamic law, apostasy, or abandoning one's faith, is punishable by death. Non-religious Iranians are not officially recognized by the government, and individuals must declare membership in one of the four recognized religions to access many rights of citizenship. In 2024, Iran received a score of zero out of four for religious freedom from Freedom House.

Pooyan Tamimi Arab, a religious studies scholar teaching in Utrecht, points out that in authoritarian states like Iran, people are unlikely to disclose their true opinions due to fear of repression.

A significant decline in mosque attendance has been observed. In February 2023, senior Iranian cleric Mohammad Abolghassem Doulabi reported that 50,000 of the nation's 75,000 mosques had been closed due to a sharp drop in attendance. Doulabi attributed this to the mistreatment of people in the name of religion, the distortion of religious teachings, and the use of religious concepts to punish government critics. These factors, he argued, have led to growing distrust towards Shia Islam and the Iranian government. Although peer-reviewed statistics on the extent of secularization are not available, many indicators suggest that a growing number of Iranians are distancing themselves from the state's official religious identity.

A slight edition on my part but doulabi himself didn't state it was due to a lack of religiousness but funding and religious politics between groups as stated below. "Doulabi primarily laid the blame for the mosque closures on a lack of government funding. However, he also indicated that Muslims were deserting mosques for other reasons. Contrary to the situation in some European countries, where church buildings and programs are funded by state taxes, mosques in Iran are run more similarly to churches in the United States; they are tax-exempt, non-profit institutions primarily supported through donations or trusts. While many mosques receive government funding, in addition to private funding, the government is not the primary supporter nor does it have the authority to close mosques. Doulabi blamed the devaluation of the Iranian currency and a lack of direct government support for the closures.

https://allarab.news/50000-mosques-have-closed-in-iran-are-iranians-seek-truth-outside-of-islam/"

Plakosa (User talk:Plakosa) 16:46, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

References