The following discussions are requested to have community-wide attention: (refresh)

Biographies

Should the persistent claims about his homosexuality be included in the article? Fram (talk) 11:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:2022 University of Idaho killings

Should the suspect's name be included in this article? CrystalXenith (talk) 07:00, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Images

Should MOS:LEADIMAGE include a subsection for selecting lead images in biographical articles (if there is more than one image of the subject)? ―Howard • 🌽³³ 18:15, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Nick Fuentes

Should there be a change in Personal Life section from

According to Fuentes, he is of Mexican descent via his paternal ancestors and is Catholic.^[1]^[2]

to

According to Fuentes, he is of Mexican descent via his paternal ancestors and is Catholic.^[3]^[2]Fuentes lives alone and has been subject to swatting incidents. ^[4]^[5]

? 207.96.32.81 (talk) 12:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Economy, trade, and companies

Talk:Decline in insect populations

Is this diff DUE or UNDUE for inclusion. Text for inclusion is:

In October 2024, researchers from the European Molecular Biology Laboratory tested the influence of insecticides, herbicides, fungicides and plant growth inhibitors in the laboratory against to larvae of the fruit fly, caterpillars of painted lady butterflies (Vanessa cardui) and in larvae of mosquitoes (Anopheles stephensi). Results suggested that agrochemical exposure, even at sublethal levels, affects insect populations.^[6]

Thanks for your comments! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 15:28, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers

I am revisiting an issue that was last brought up 6 years ago here and settled without a strong consensus.

I think we should avoid using Indian numbering conventions unless it is needed for context. For instance, if we want to list the box office take of an Indian movie, don't use "crore", use "millions". This isn't about disrespecting a culture, it's about using internationally favored notation and unit conventions. We should use "millions" instead of "crore" for the same reason we favor meters over feet. There is no reason that India-related articles should be an enclave of Indian conventions. People who are not Indian will struggle with these things, it will weaken Wikipedia's role as an information tool for everyone.

This is not the same thing as currency. It is appropriate to list an Indian movie's box office take in rupees. Providing a US$ conversion is optional, but a good idea since the US dollar is widely used around the world as a reserve currency. But write it as "millions of rupees", not "crores of rupees". Kurzon (talk) 16:38, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

History and geography

Talk:2024 Kursk offensive

Should we add NK as a beligerant?

Whilst not really been discused here is has elsewhere so it seems approtate to ask here. Slatersteven (talk) 14:18, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War

Should we add NK as a beligerant? Slatersteven (talk) 14:15, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Isles of Scilly

Trewartha's Book in which he defines his climate classification system clearly states marine climates in this category must be frostless. (ISBN 9780700651481 Chapter: Subtropical climates, pages 330-362). Met Office data (https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/climate/maps-and-data/uk-climate-averages/gbgebz4kn) shows the Isles of Scilly are not frostless. So how can the Isles of Scilly be considered "subtropical". Can anyone provide academic comment and/or third-party reliable sources that specifically claim the Isles of Scilly are subtropical? More editors looking at this would be helpful. 86.184.52.46 (talk) 23:46, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Arab migrations to the Levant

Most of the content of Revision A (November 12th) has been around for weeks. Today , it has been reverted with the current one , Revision B.

The purpose of this RFC is to determine which of the two Revisions better fulfils Wikipedia's guidelines of Verifiability , and Neutral POV.

So , that's the question of the RFC :

Should the article's current revision (Revision B) be reverted back to Revision A ?
Should the article be kept as it is , in its current revision (Revision B) ?

TheCuratingEditor (talk) 17:28, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine

can we add North Korea as a belligerent in the infobox? Slatersteven (talk) 14:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:San Francisco

There has been a discussion above regarding whether more than a single image is required in the infobox. Some commenters have referred to a "longstanding consensus" against multiple images, but I see little evidence that that consensus still holds in the discussion above, other than by bold assertion.

I invite comments regarding the number of images that should be in the infobox, from both involved an uninvolved editors.

Option 0: no image
Option 1: only one image
Option 2: two images
Option 3: three or more images

Note that this is about the number of images, not the specific images to be chosen, since the number of images seems to be the primary point of contention.

I will ping all participants in the discussion above, but please note this is an attempt to establish consensus, not to push any particular point of view, and all editors are welcome to contribute. I hold no position as to the favoured option, and thus won't express my opinion.

Note also that this is a request for comment, not a WP:VOTE; please express a rationale for your position on this, rather than just chiming in. Non-specific references to "the archives" or that this "has been discussed many times" are not sufficient; please re-state your argument here.

— The Anome (talk) 11:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Australia

There is an ongoing editoral dispute (including on the talk page above) on whether Australia's actions against Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders can be described in the article as genocidal or simply the product of disease and mutual conflicts. A consensus could not be reached so I am asking for non-involved editors to comment. OntologicalTree (talk) 00:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide

Should Native American genocide in the United States and Genocide of Indigenous Australians added as colonial/settler colonial genocide examples into the second paragraph in History section?

Include Native American genocide in the United States and Genocide of Indigenous Australians as examples
Include Native American genocide in the United States and Genocide of Indigenous Australians as examples along with other examples in history section (expansion of History section)
Do not include
Other

Bogazicili (talk) 19:01, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:1796 United States presidential election

Should we mention in the infobox, that Jefferson was elected vice president? GoodDay (talk) 20:29, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh conflict

Has the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict ended and if so what date should be listed as the end in the infobox? Pithon314 (talk) 03:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of common misconceptions

We have already established a consensus to split this very long list. The next question is how to split it. Should this become two, three, or four separate lists of common misconceptions? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion

Should the following sentence be added to the lede?

In its investigation on 20 October 2023, Forensic Architecture concluded the blast was the result of a munition fired from the direction of Israel

04:22, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Modern Hebrew

Should the text in bold below be kept in the introduction?

Hebrew, a Northwest Semitic language within the Afroasiatic language family, was spoken since antiquity and the vernacular of the Jewish people until the 3rd century BCE, when it was supplanted by Western Aramaic, a dialect of the Aramaic language, the local or dominant languages of the regions Jews migrated to, and later Judeo-Arabic, Judaeo-Spanish, Yiddish, and other Jewish languages. Although Hebrew continued to be used for Jewish liturgy, poetry and literature, and written correspondence, it became extinct as a spoken language.

and

By the late 19th century, Russian-Jewish linguist Eliezer Ben-Yehuda had begun a popular movement to revive Hebrew as a living language, motivated by his desire to preserve Hebrew literature and a distinct Jewish nationality in the context of Zionism. Soon after, a large number of Yiddish and Judaeo-Spanish speakers were murdered in the Holocaust or fled to Israel, and many speakers of Judeo-Arabic emigrated to Israel in the Jewish exodus from the Muslim world, where many adapted to Modern Hebrew.

This has been discussed above at Talk:Modern Hebrew#WP:OR in lede. إيان (talk) 00:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Talk:1948 Arab–Israeli War

Should the lead section of 1948 Arab-Israeli War mention the Jewish exodus from the Muslim world? Andre🚐 21:40, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Storrs, Connecticut

Comments would be appreciated to achieve an accurate and supportable consensus regarding references to Storrs-Mansfield, Connecticut - an unincorporated village which is sometimes referred to as Storrs. The community is notably home to the main campus of the University of Connecticut, and, naturally reflects cultural differences both as a New England fixture but also due to some misplaced or incorrect historical usage.

The request would be to alter the lead section of the article to read as follows:

Storrs-Mansfield (/stɔːrzˈmænsfild/ storz-MANS-feeld) is an unincorporated village and census-designated place (CDP) in the town of Mansfield in eastern Tolland County, Connecticut, United States. The community is part of the Capitol Planning Region.

Sometimes referred to as Storrs, the village is dominated economically and demographically by the main campus of the University of Connecticut and the associated Connecticut Repertory Theatre.

Several points of discussion, including the preference and differences between census-designated place boundaries and postal town boundaries are included on the article talk page. It is not appropriate to immediately dismiss the need for a new consensus, due to the substantial official and community usage of both names. Thank you, Jonathanhusky (talk) 19:58, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Somali Civil War

Which map should be used? (Listed below) (the main issue is the map's sources) Zabezt (talk) 15:14, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Language and linguistics

Talk:List of common misconceptions

We have already established a consensus to split this very long list. The next question is how to split it. Should this become two, three, or four separate lists of common misconceptions? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Modern Hebrew

Should the text in bold below be kept in the introduction?

Hebrew, a Northwest Semitic language within the Afroasiatic language family, was spoken since antiquity and the vernacular of the Jewish people until the 3rd century BCE, when it was supplanted by Western Aramaic, a dialect of the Aramaic language, the local or dominant languages of the regions Jews migrated to, and later Judeo-Arabic, Judaeo-Spanish, Yiddish, and other Jewish languages. Although Hebrew continued to be used for Jewish liturgy, poetry and literature, and written correspondence, it became extinct as a spoken language.

and

By the late 19th century, Russian-Jewish linguist Eliezer Ben-Yehuda had begun a popular movement to revive Hebrew as a living language, motivated by his desire to preserve Hebrew literature and a distinct Jewish nationality in the context of Zionism. Soon after, a large number of Yiddish and Judaeo-Spanish speakers were murdered in the Holocaust or fled to Israel, and many speakers of Judeo-Arabic emigrated to Israel in the Jewish exodus from the Muslim world, where many adapted to Modern Hebrew.

This has been discussed above at Talk:Modern Hebrew#WP:OR in lede. إيان (talk) 00:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Maths, science, and technology

Talk:Decline in insect populations

Is this diff DUE or UNDUE for inclusion. Text for inclusion is:

In October 2024, researchers from the European Molecular Biology Laboratory tested the influence of insecticides, herbicides, fungicides and plant growth inhibitors in the laboratory against to larvae of the fruit fly, caterpillars of painted lady butterflies (Vanessa cardui) and in larvae of mosquitoes (Anopheles stephensi). Results suggested that agrochemical exposure, even at sublethal levels, affects insect populations.^[7]

Thanks for your comments! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 15:28, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory

Is there enough reputable source material—in favor of the lab leak hypothesis—referenced in the body of this page, to justify softening the anti-lab leak tone in the lead paragraph and including some acknowledgement of the hypothesis being viable/legitimate/plausible? Lardlegwarmers (talk) 09:29, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Wolf

Should the following sentence be included in the article, in the Diet section, immediately following: When such foods are insufficient, they prey on lizards, snakes, frogs, and large insects when available.

One wolf was even known to have eaten 181 Payette's short-winged grasshoppers in a single sitting.^[8]

? Robert McClenon (talk) 06:02, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:15.ai

How should the current status of the 15.ai web site be listed in the infobox?

A. Under maintenance.
B. Abandoned.
C. Omit the Current Status field from the infobox.

Robert McClenon (talk) 01:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Tuner (radio)

Should the article contain a gallery of images (as shown below) illustrating the history of radio tuners?

Robert McClenon (talk) 01:02, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of common misconceptions

We have already established a consensus to split this very long list. The next question is how to split it. Should this become two, three, or four separate lists of common misconceptions? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Art, architecture, literature, and media

Talk:List of fictional countries set on Earth

What should the threshold for inclusion be?

Option A WP:Verifiability in primary sources (i.e. the works of fiction themselves)
Option B Verifiability in secondary/tertiary sources
Option C WP:Notability (corresponding to WP:CSC #1)

TompaDompa (talk) 16:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

What is the reliability of Al-Manar?

Option 1: Generally reliable
Option 2: Additional considerations
Option 3: Generally unreliable
Option 4: Deprecate

- Amigao (talk) 03:08, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

Which of the following describes the reliability of Check Your Fact?

Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated

— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 19:26, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of 2022 FIFA World Cup controversies

Should this self-published image File:Slave Labour ahead of 2022 FIFA World Cup.jpg be displayed in this article? إيان (talk) 11:41, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of common misconceptions

We have already established a consensus to split this very long list. The next question is how to split it. Should this become two, three, or four separate lists of common misconceptions? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Politics, government, and law

Talk:Decline in insect populations

Is this diff DUE or UNDUE for inclusion. Text for inclusion is:

In October 2024, researchers from the European Molecular Biology Laboratory tested the influence of insecticides, herbicides, fungicides and plant growth inhibitors in the laboratory against to larvae of the fruit fly, caterpillars of painted lady butterflies (Vanessa cardui) and in larvae of mosquitoes (Anopheles stephensi). Results suggested that agrochemical exposure, even at sublethal levels, affects insect populations.^[9]

Thanks for your comments! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 15:28, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Nazism/FAQ

In this FAQ page and on the related template seen in use here where it says "Nazism is a right-wing ideology", should we instead say that Nazism is a far-right ideology? Helper201 (talk) 09:16, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine

can we add North Korea as a belligerent in the infobox? Slatersteven (talk) 14:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Conservative Party (UK)

In the article lede, should the Conservative Party be described as 'centre-right to right-wing', 'right-wing to centre-right', 'centre-right', or 'right-wing'?

Will Thorpe (talk) 12:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

Which of the following describes the reliability of Check Your Fact?

Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated

— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 19:26, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of 2022 FIFA World Cup controversies

Should this self-published image File:Slave Labour ahead of 2022 FIFA World Cup.jpg be displayed in this article? إيان (talk) 11:41, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Nick Fuentes

Should there be a change in Personal Life section from

According to Fuentes, he is of Mexican descent via his paternal ancestors and is Catholic.^[10]^[2]

to

According to Fuentes, he is of Mexican descent via his paternal ancestors and is Catholic.^[11]^[2]Fuentes lives alone and has been subject to swatting incidents. ^[12]^[13]

? 207.96.32.81 (talk) 12:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Hamas

There are three questions:

Should the section on the recognition of Israel by Hamas discuss hypothetical recognition (whether Hamas would recognise Israel) and how prominently, based on the sources in the current version?
1. Yes, in the first sentence as in the current version
2. Yes, less prominently later in the section.
3. No
Should we mention the Israeli framing of the conflict with Hamas per Kear in the recognition section?
1. Yes (as in the current version)
2. No
How should we include Usher's 2006 opinion?
1. In the recognition section without the year (as in the current version)
2. In the recognition section with the year
3. In the evolution of positions section
4. Nowhere in the article.

This is a revised version of a previous RfC.

Smallangryplanet (talk) 11:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Head of state

As the previous discussions didn't solve the dispute, I'm starting Rfc now to let more users comment on this and trying to reach a consensus. This Rfc is about the lead images in this article.

Three-point method - uses three points (GDP, HDI and Democracy index) and two criteria (continental and women representation)
Population-based method - would affect NPOV in continental and women represenation
Other methods - any other new method with NPOV
Remove it totally - as it causes frequent edit war over adding and removing images.

I prefer '1)' as it ensures NPOV with continential representation (NA 2, SA 1, EU 3, AF 1, AS 1, OC 1) and women representation (3 leaders). JoshuaJ28 (talk) 07:42, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Australia

There is an ongoing editoral dispute (including on the talk page above) on whether Australia's actions against Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders can be described in the article as genocidal or simply the product of disease and mutual conflicts. A consensus could not be reached so I am asking for non-involved editors to comment. OntologicalTree (talk) 00:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide

Should Native American genocide in the United States and Genocide of Indigenous Australians added as colonial/settler colonial genocide examples into the second paragraph in History section?

Include Native American genocide in the United States and Genocide of Indigenous Australians as examples
Include Native American genocide in the United States and Genocide of Indigenous Australians as examples along with other examples in history section (expansion of History section)
Do not include
Other

Bogazicili (talk) 19:01, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:1796 United States presidential election

Should we mention in the infobox, that Jefferson was elected vice president? GoodDay (talk) 20:29, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Template talk:Israel–Hamas war infobox

Should the US and UK be added as allies in other theaters to Israel in the infobox?

Yes for US
Yes for US and UK
No for both

RFCBefore

Smallangryplanet (talk) 13:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Central university (India)

Should this article include an image of Aligarh Muslim University with the caption second central university? -- User4edits (T) 11:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh conflict

Has the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict ended and if so what date should be listed as the end in the infobox? Pithon314 (talk) 03:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of common misconceptions

We have already established a consensus to split this very long list. The next question is how to split it. Should this become two, three, or four separate lists of common misconceptions? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Social democracy

The Lede currently describes socdem as an ideology within socialism. 5 sources are cited for this sentence clause. Three book sources from 1999, 2005, and 2007 respectively, and two online sources from 2018 and 2019 respectively. Only 2 of them are accessible, the two online sources. Neither of the two online sources (this and this) make the claim that Social democracy is a movement within Socialism.

The question for the RFC is: should the lede describe the ideology as Socialist? There will be 6 options; please write the option you support along with your reasoning in the survey section, and then discuss in the discussion section. Also please write the extent to which you support the other proposals. Please don't reply to others in the survey section. Please don't just write an option without any reasoning for it.

Option 1: It should should describe it as 'a Liberal poltical ideology that supports things such as a welfare state, mixed economy, etc'.

Option 2: It should should omit the 'is a movement within' part in favour of the lede sentence, instead describing it as 'a political ideology that supports things such as a welfare state, mixed economy, etc'.

Option 3: It should describe it as a socialist political ideology, as it does now [status quo].

Option 4: It should should describe it as 'a democratic poltical ideology that supports things such as a welfare state, mixed economy, etc'

Option 5: It should should describe it as 'a capitalist poltical ideology that supports things such as a welfare state, mixed economy, etc'

Option 6: Other, it should [insert thing].

Option 7: Comment.

.A Socialist Trans Girl 08:30, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Storrs, Connecticut

Comments would be appreciated to achieve an accurate and supportable consensus regarding references to Storrs-Mansfield, Connecticut - an unincorporated village which is sometimes referred to as Storrs. The community is notably home to the main campus of the University of Connecticut, and, naturally reflects cultural differences both as a New England fixture but also due to some misplaced or incorrect historical usage.

The request would be to alter the lead section of the article to read as follows:

Storrs-Mansfield (/stɔːrzˈmænsfild/ storz-MANS-feeld) is an unincorporated village and census-designated place (CDP) in the town of Mansfield in eastern Tolland County, Connecticut, United States. The community is part of the Capitol Planning Region.

Sometimes referred to as Storrs, the village is dominated economically and demographically by the main campus of the University of Connecticut and the associated Connecticut Repertory Theatre.

Several points of discussion, including the preference and differences between census-designated place boundaries and postal town boundaries are included on the article talk page. It is not appropriate to immediately dismiss the need for a new consensus, due to the substantial official and community usage of both names. Thank you, Jonathanhusky (talk) 19:58, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Somali Civil War

Which map should be used? (Listed below) (the main issue is the map's sources) Zabezt (talk) 15:14, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Religion and philosophy

Talk:List of common misconceptions

We have already established a consensus to split this very long list. The next question is how to split it. Should this become two, three, or four separate lists of common misconceptions? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Society, sports, and culture

Talk:List of fictional countries set on Earth

What should the threshold for inclusion be?

Option A WP:Verifiability in primary sources (i.e. the works of fiction themselves)
Option B Verifiability in secondary/tertiary sources
Option C WP:Notability (corresponding to WP:CSC #1)

TompaDompa (talk) 16:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of 2022 FIFA World Cup controversies

Should this self-published image File:Slave Labour ahead of 2022 FIFA World Cup.jpg be displayed in this article? إيان (talk) 11:41, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Australia

There is an ongoing editoral dispute (including on the talk page above) on whether Australia's actions against Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders can be described in the article as genocidal or simply the product of disease and mutual conflicts. A consensus could not be reached so I am asking for non-involved editors to comment. OntologicalTree (talk) 00:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:Genocide

Should Native American genocide in the United States and Genocide of Indigenous Australians added as colonial/settler colonial genocide examples into the second paragraph in History section?

Include Native American genocide in the United States and Genocide of Indigenous Australians as examples
Include Native American genocide in the United States and Genocide of Indigenous Australians as examples along with other examples in history section (expansion of History section)
Do not include
Other

Bogazicili (talk) 19:01, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Template talk:Football squad start

What flag should we use for players born in territories that are not fifa members? Currently guidance says regardless of nationality of birth or citizenship, or non-FIFA sporting nationalities the player may use in other contexts. However some editors have suggested this is outdated and there should be exceptions.

This creates a problem particularly for the Crown Dependencies as they are not members of FIFA or UEFA in their own right but part of the English FA. The Crown Dependencies are not part of England in the political sense though. In FIFA terms they are part of England however this could be considered controversial.

There are other instances where this is the case such as players from Åland, the Isle of Wight and Anglesey all of which have football teams that appear at the island games on the same basis as the crown dependencies but in FIFA terms they are part of Finland, England and Wales respectively. Players from these territories would normally have their respective FIFA national team flag on this template. C. 22468 Talk to me 23:00, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of common misconceptions

We have already established a consensus to split this very long list. The next question is how to split it. Should this become two, three, or four separate lists of common misconceptions? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia style and naming

Talk:Berbers

Should the Infobox include Arabic with the ethnic languages, or follow examples like Assyrian people and Copts that exclude it? TahaKahi (talk) 22:12, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Article titles

For any proposed article title determined by the application of WP:CRITERIA the proposed title should nonetheless comply with WP:TITLEFORMAT (ie WP:TITLEFORMAT has primacy over WP:CRITERIA). Cinderella157 (talk) 00:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers

I am revisiting an issue that was last brought up 6 years ago here and settled without a strong consensus.

I think we should avoid using Indian numbering conventions unless it is needed for context. For instance, if we want to list the box office take of an Indian movie, don't use "crore", use "millions". This isn't about disrespecting a culture, it's about using internationally favored notation and unit conventions. We should use "millions" instead of "crore" for the same reason we favor meters over feet. There is no reason that India-related articles should be an enclave of Indian conventions. People who are not Indian will struggle with these things, it will weaken Wikipedia's role as an information tool for everyone.

This is not the same thing as currency. It is appropriate to list an Indian movie's box office take in rupees. Providing a US$ conversion is optional, but a good idea since the US dollar is widely used around the world as a reserve currency. But write it as "millions of rupees", not "crores of rupees". Kurzon (talk) 16:38, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Short description

I have asked this question multiple times and have received no complete consensus to change WP:SDNONE to apply article names such as History of Nottinghamshire and Watersheds of Illinois. When this is resolved, please update WP:SDNONE to comply with this ruling. This RfC is necessary since there are thousands of articles where this applies where there is no consensus for use of WP:SDNONE. Additionally, the guideline is extremely short and vague for something that applies to hundreds of thousands of articles.

Potential options:

Yes, articles on subnational entities and municipalities in the title should have "none as a short description"
Only for cities and subnational entities that an "average reader would know" (which I have seen brought up in the past) should have "none" as a short description (most readers know about Delhi, Texas, and Moscow, not so much Kilgore, Texas, and Ncojane) (This has been brought up in the past by Remsense)
No, none of these apply for WP:SDNONE (a format will have to be provided for what should be recommended in the new guideline)

Thanks! -1ctinus📝🗨 22:06, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment

Should the words "or ~~~~~ (just the time and date)" be removed from statement 5 of Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Creating an RfC?

RFCBefore Selfstudier (talk) 18:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Images

Should MOS:LEADIMAGE include a subsection for selecting lead images in biographical articles (if there is more than one image of the subject)? ―Howard • 🌽³³ 18:15, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources

There has been an initiative to change the interface so that the gray header at the top of the table "follows around" as you scroll down. See: {{sticky header}}. Which of the choices below (A-E) do you prefer? What other ideas do you have?

The header is now 2 lines tall. What Timeshifter is now proposing (scroll down this example) is a narrow one-line sticky header with a link from the "Status" column head back to the "Legend" section of the article. And a link from the "Sources" column head back to the "Sources" section of the article. Notes explain this just above the table. He states this allows new users of the table to quickly return to the table TOC, or to quickly find the meaning of the legend icons.

An issue in any skin other than the default Vector 2022: When you use the horizontal table TOC, or if you follow ("jump to") an anchored link within the table such as WP:FORBESCON, the top line of the note in the row you jump to would be covered by the narrow sticky header. 2 lines are covered by the 2-line header. Template discussions have not found a way to fix this. Timeshifter does not believe this is a serious problem. Others do. One solution (see E below) is to add a line's worth of blank padding at the top of each row.

A: No sticky header, same style (2-line) header as before.
B: Full size (2-line) header with sticky enabled.
C: Narrow (1-line) header without sticky enabled.
D: Narrow header with sticky header that follows you around.
E: Same as D, but with padding at the top of each row.

Graywalls (talk) 15:04, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia policies and guidelines

Wikipedia talk:Article titles

For any proposed article title determined by the application of WP:CRITERIA the proposed title should nonetheless comply with WP:TITLEFORMAT (ie WP:TITLEFORMAT has primacy over WP:CRITERIA). Cinderella157 (talk) 00:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Short description

I have asked this question multiple times and have received no complete consensus to change WP:SDNONE to apply article names such as History of Nottinghamshire and Watersheds of Illinois. When this is resolved, please update WP:SDNONE to comply with this ruling. This RfC is necessary since there are thousands of articles where this applies where there is no consensus for use of WP:SDNONE. Additionally, the guideline is extremely short and vague for something that applies to hundreds of thousands of articles.

Potential options:

Yes, articles on subnational entities and municipalities in the title should have "none as a short description"
Only for cities and subnational entities that an "average reader would know" (which I have seen brought up in the past) should have "none" as a short description (most readers know about Delhi, Texas, and Moscow, not so much Kilgore, Texas, and Ncojane) (This has been brought up in the past by Remsense)
No, none of these apply for WP:SDNONE (a format will have to be provided for what should be recommended in the new guideline)

Thanks! -1ctinus📝🗨 22:06, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Talk:List of 2022 FIFA World Cup controversies

Should this self-published image File:Slave Labour ahead of 2022 FIFA World Cup.jpg be displayed in this article? إيان (talk) 11:41, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Grey Literature

Should grey literature from advocacy groups and other similar orgs always be considered WP:SPS and therefore subject to WP:BLPSPS? Previous discussions as per Wikipedia:RFCBEFORE. [1][2]. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:00, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Administrators

In Wikipedia:Administrators#Restoration of adminship, should the policy regarding Over five years since administrative tools were last used for restoration of adminship apply to:

Option 1: Only those former administrators desysopped for inactivity
Option 2: All former administrators

Thryduulf (talk) 22:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Administrator recall

Should the following text -- or text to the same basic effect -- be added to Petition section, at the end of the main text, right before the field to start a new page (or elsewhere):

As with any petition, all that is wanted is signatures. Any editor may and should remove any material found on a petition page except for the nomination and signatures. Any exceptions should be discussed and agreed to on the talk page first.

Yes or no? Suggestions of changes to the text are of course invited. Herostratus (talk) 05:06, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

To anyone unfamiliar with this, admin recall is a new process that is exactly what it sounds like. Currently, there is a 30 day petition period: if 25 people sign it, the admin then needs to pass a new RfA within 30 days to keep the tools. Should we change the petition period?

Option A: Keep the petition period the same (30 days)
Option B: Change the petition period to 7 days
Option C: Some other time period (like 14 or 15 days?) that's longer than a week but shorter than a month.

Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 19:20, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

The reliability of the Jerusalem Post is:

Option 1: Generally reliable

Option 2: Additional considerations

Option 3: Generally unreliable

Option 4: Deprecate

RFCBEFORE. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

WikiProjects and collaborations

Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment

Should the words "or ~~~~~ (just the time and date)" be removed from statement 5 of Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Creating an RfC?

RFCBefore Selfstudier (talk) 18:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia technical issues and templates

Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)

Currently, there are open phab tickets proposing that the use of the HistMerge tool be logged at the target article in addition to the source article. Several proposals have been made:

Option 1a: When using Special:MergeHistory, a null edit should be placed in both the merge target and merge source's page's histories stating that a history merge took place.
(phab:T341760: Special:MergeHistory should place a null edit in the page's history describing the merge, authored Jul 13 2023)
Option 1b: When using Special:MergeHistory, add a a log entry recorded for the articles at the both HistMerge target and source that records the existence of a history merge.
(phab:T118132: Merging pages should add a log entry to the destination page, authored Nov 8 2015)
Option 2: Do not log the use of the Special:MergeHistory tool at the merge target, maintaining the current status quo.

Should the use of the HistMerge tool be explicitly logged? If so, should the use be logged via an entry in the page history or should it instead be held in a dedicated log? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:51, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)

Should the (mergehistory) permission be enabled for the importer group? Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 12:26, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Articles for creation

Should a bot be created to handle AfC submissions that haven't changed since the last time they were submitted?

Option 1: Yes. The bot should automatically ~~reject~~ decline any such submissions.
Option 2: Yes. The bot should add such submissions to a list, similar to the list of possible copyvios.
Option 3: Yes. The bot should notify the submitter and comment on the submission.
Option 4: Yes. The bot should add such submissions to a list and notify the submitter and comment on the submission.
Option 5: No.

JJP_{Mas_ter} (she/they) 18:55, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Perennial sources

There has been an initiative to change the interface so that the gray header at the top of the table "follows around" as you scroll down. See: {{sticky header}}. Which of the choices below (A-E) do you prefer? What other ideas do you have?

The header is now 2 lines tall. What Timeshifter is now proposing (scroll down this example) is a narrow one-line sticky header with a link from the "Status" column head back to the "Legend" section of the article. And a link from the "Sources" column head back to the "Sources" section of the article. Notes explain this just above the table. He states this allows new users of the table to quickly return to the table TOC, or to quickly find the meaning of the legend icons.

An issue in any skin other than the default Vector 2022: When you use the horizontal table TOC, or if you follow ("jump to") an anchored link within the table such as WP:FORBESCON, the top line of the note in the row you jump to would be covered by the narrow sticky header. 2 lines are covered by the 2-line header. Template discussions have not found a way to fix this. Timeshifter does not believe this is a serious problem. Others do. One solution (see E below) is to add a line's worth of blank padding at the top of each row.

A: No sticky header, same style (2-line) header as before.
B: Full size (2-line) header with sticky enabled.
C: Narrow (1-line) header without sticky enabled.
D: Narrow header with sticky header that follows you around.
E: Same as D, but with padding at the top of each row.

Graywalls (talk) 15:04, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia proposals

Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)

Currently, there are open phab tickets proposing that the use of the HistMerge tool be logged at the target article in addition to the source article. Several proposals have been made:

Option 1a: When using Special:MergeHistory, a null edit should be placed in both the merge target and merge source's page's histories stating that a history merge took place.
(phab:T341760: Special:MergeHistory should place a null edit in the page's history describing the merge, authored Jul 13 2023)
Option 1b: When using Special:MergeHistory, add a a log entry recorded for the articles at the both HistMerge target and source that records the existence of a history merge.
(phab:T118132: Merging pages should add a log entry to the destination page, authored Nov 8 2015)
Option 2: Do not log the use of the Special:MergeHistory tool at the merge target, maintaining the current status quo.

Should the use of the HistMerge tool be explicitly logged? If so, should the use be logged via an entry in the page history or should it instead be held in a dedicated log? — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 15:51, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)

Should the (mergehistory) permission be enabled for the importer group? Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 12:26, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard

Which of the following describes the reliability of Check Your Fact?

Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated

— Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 19:26, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)

Should a new pending changes protection level - extended confirmed pending changes (hereby abbreviated as PCECP) - be added to Wikipedia? Awesome Aasim 19:58, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Unsorted

User names

Shortcuts

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This page is for bringing attention to usernames which may be in violation of Wikipedia's username policy. Before listing a username here, consider if it should be more appropriately reported elsewhere, or if it needs to be reported at all:

Report blatantly inappropriate usernames, such as usernames that are obscene or inflammatory, to Wikipedia:Usernames for administrator attention.
For other cases involving vandalism, personal attacks or other urgent issues, try Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents; blatant vandalism can also be reported at Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism, which is sometimes a better option.

Do NOT post here if:

the user in question has made no recent edits.
you wish to have the block of a user reviewed. Instead, discuss the block with the blocking administrator (see also Wikipedia:Blocking policy § Unblocking).

Before adding a name here you MUST ensure that the user in question:

has been warned about their username (with e.g. {{subst:uw-username}}) and has been allowed time to address the concern on their user talk page.
has disagreed with the concern, refused to change their username and/or continued to edit without replying to the warning.
is not already blocked.

If, after having followed all the steps above, you still believe the username violates Wikipedia's username policy, you may list it here with an explanation of which part of the username policy you think has been violated. After posting, please alert the user of the discussion (with e.g. {{subst:UsernameDiscussion}}). You may also invite others who have expressed concern about the username to comment on the discussion by use of this template.

Add new requests below, using the syntax {{subst:rfcn1|username|2=reason ~~~~}}.

Tools: Special:ListUsers, Special:BlockList

Reports

Please remember that this is not a vote, rather, it is a place where editors can come when they are unsure what to do with a username, and to get outside opinions (hence it's named "requests for comment"). There are no set time limits to the period of discussion.

Place your report below this line. Please put new reports on the top of the list.

Willow and nacho

The following discussion is an archived debate of the username below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment/User names). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result was: allow. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 00:10, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Willow and nacho (talk · contribs)

Username implies shared use.Shadow311 (talk) 23:06, 22 October 2024 (UTC).

It doesn't, really. It is reasonable to include "and" because "Willow" and "nacho" are probably not names, just two objects. Cremastra (u — c) 23:28, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

That's a good point, there's no actual evidence that these are personal names, or that the account is actually being shared. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 23:43, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

Catfish Jim and the soapdish is not blocked, although that "implies shared use" – the soap dish, like the nacho, is also using the account. Cremastra (u — c) 20:23, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Just noting that while an initial warning was given, the user has not edited since that warning was given. Not sure why there was such a rush to come here after only 24 hours. Primefac (talk) 10:28, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

At least 22 hours after the warning was given, They resubmitted their sandbox to AFC without making any changes to it. Shadow311 (talk) 16:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Allow - "Willow" and "nacho" are almost certainly not meant to be personal names, so there is not clear implication of shared use. - ZLEA _T\^C 17:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Allow a vague suspiscion that maybe "Willow" and "Nacho" are the names of people is not a valid reason to block a user. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 18:37, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
Allow. Yes, it is possible that this could be two individuals named "Willow" and "Nacho". However, it's equally reasonable that it's just the name of two objects, and thus the name doesn't necessarily imply shared use. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 18:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
Allow. I would bet dollars to donuts this user was having a hard time coming up with a username and these are the names of their cats. Jessamyn (my talk page) 00:01, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the entries talk page). No further edits should be made to this page.

^ Cortellessa, Eric; Sheffield, Matthew (November 22, 2019). "The Conservative Establishment's Nightmare Is Only Just Beginning". Washington Monthly. Archived from the original on December 21, 2019. Retrieved April 30, 2020. Fuentes, who identifies as a traditional Catholic and is partially of Hispanic descent...
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d Anderson, Nick (November 16, 2019). "Far-right agitators roil the conservative movement on college campuses in battle to define Trumpism". The Washington Post. Archived from the original on November 17, 2019. Retrieved November 18, 2019.
^ Cortellessa, Eric; Sheffield, Matthew (November 22, 2019). "The Conservative Establishment's Nightmare Is Only Just Beginning". Washington Monthly. Archived from the original on December 21, 2019. Retrieved April 30, 2020. Fuentes, who identifies as a traditional Catholic and is partially of Hispanic descent...
^ "Nick Fuentes Trades Parents' Basement for Pricey Livestreaming Den". Southern Poverty Law Center. 2022-11-19.
^ "Fuentes Victim Of 'Swatting' Incidents: Cops". La Grange, IL Patch. 2023-01-06.
^ Gandara, Lautaro; Jacoby, Richard; Laurent, François; Spatuzzi, Matteo; Vlachopoulos, Nikolaos; Borst, Noa O.; Ekmen, Gülina; Potel, Clement M.; Garrido-Rodriguez, Martin; Böhmert, Antonia L.; Misunou, Natalia; Bartmanski, Bartosz J.; Li, Xueying C.; Kutra, Dominik; Hériché, Jean-Karim (2024-10-25). "Pervasive sublethal effects of agrochemicals on insects at environmentally relevant concentrations". Science. 386 (6720): 446–453. doi:10.1126/science.ado0251. ISSN 0036-8075.
^ Gandara, Lautaro; Jacoby, Richard; Laurent, François; Spatuzzi, Matteo; Vlachopoulos, Nikolaos; Borst, Noa O.; Ekmen, Gülina; Potel, Clement M.; Garrido-Rodriguez, Martin; Böhmert, Antonia L.; Misunou, Natalia; Bartmanski, Bartosz J.; Li, Xueying C.; Kutra, Dominik; Hériché, Jean-Karim (2024-10-25). "Pervasive sublethal effects of agrochemicals on insects at environmentally relevant concentrations". Science. 386 (6720): 446–453. doi:10.1126/science.ado0251. ISSN 0036-8075.
^ Barton, Brandon T.; Hill, JoVonn G.; Wolff, Carter L.; Newsome, Thomas M.; Ripple, William J.; Lashley, Marcus A. (2019-09-18). "Grasshopper consumption by grey wolves and implications for ecosystems" (PDF). Ecology. 101 (2): e02892. doi:10.1002/ecy.2892. ISSN 0012-9658. PMID 31531974.
^ Gandara, Lautaro; Jacoby, Richard; Laurent, François; Spatuzzi, Matteo; Vlachopoulos, Nikolaos; Borst, Noa O.; Ekmen, Gülina; Potel, Clement M.; Garrido-Rodriguez, Martin; Böhmert, Antonia L.; Misunou, Natalia; Bartmanski, Bartosz J.; Li, Xueying C.; Kutra, Dominik; Hériché, Jean-Karim (2024-10-25). "Pervasive sublethal effects of agrochemicals on insects at environmentally relevant concentrations". Science. 386 (6720): 446–453. doi:10.1126/science.ado0251. ISSN 0036-8075.
^ Cortellessa, Eric; Sheffield, Matthew (November 22, 2019). "The Conservative Establishment's Nightmare Is Only Just Beginning". Washington Monthly. Archived from the original on December 21, 2019. Retrieved April 30, 2020. Fuentes, who identifies as a traditional Catholic and is partially of Hispanic descent...
^ Cortellessa, Eric; Sheffield, Matthew (November 22, 2019). "The Conservative Establishment's Nightmare Is Only Just Beginning". Washington Monthly. Archived from the original on December 21, 2019. Retrieved April 30, 2020. Fuentes, who identifies as a traditional Catholic and is partially of Hispanic descent...
^ "Nick Fuentes Trades Parents' Basement for Pricey Livestreaming Den". Southern Poverty Law Center. 2022-11-19.
^ "Fuentes Victim Of 'Swatting' Incidents: Cops". La Grange, IL Patch. 2023-01-06.

[1] Cortellessa, Eric; Sheffield, Matthew (November 22, 2019). "The Conservative Establishment's Nightmare Is Only Just Beginning". Washington Monthly. Archived from the original on December 21, 2019. Retrieved April 30, 2020. Fuentes, who identifies as a traditional Catholic and is partially of Hispanic descent...

[:2Anderson-2] Anderson, Nick (November 16, 2019). "Far-right agitators roil the conservative movement on college campuses in battle to define Trumpism". The Washington Post. Archived from the original on November 17, 2019. Retrieved November 18, 2019.

[3] Cortellessa, Eric; Sheffield, Matthew (November 22, 2019). "The Conservative Establishment's Nightmare Is Only Just Beginning". Washington Monthly. Archived from the original on December 21, 2019. Retrieved April 30, 2020. Fuentes, who identifies as a traditional Catholic and is partially of Hispanic descent...

[4] "Nick Fuentes Trades Parents' Basement for Pricey Livestreaming Den". Southern Poverty Law Center. 2022-11-19.

[5] "Fuentes Victim Of 'Swatting' Incidents: Cops". La Grange, IL Patch. 2023-01-06.

[6] Gandara, Lautaro; Jacoby, Richard; Laurent, François; Spatuzzi, Matteo; Vlachopoulos, Nikolaos; Borst, Noa O.; Ekmen, Gülina; Potel, Clement M.; Garrido-Rodriguez, Martin; Böhmert, Antonia L.; Misunou, Natalia; Bartmanski, Bartosz J.; Li, Xueying C.; Kutra, Dominik; Hériché, Jean-Karim (2024-10-25). "Pervasive sublethal effects of agrochemicals on insects at environmentally relevant concentrations". Science. 386 (6720): 446–453. doi:10.1126/science.ado0251. ISSN 0036-8075.

[7] Gandara, Lautaro; Jacoby, Richard; Laurent, François; Spatuzzi, Matteo; Vlachopoulos, Nikolaos; Borst, Noa O.; Ekmen, Gülina; Potel, Clement M.; Garrido-Rodriguez, Martin; Böhmert, Antonia L.; Misunou, Natalia; Bartmanski, Bartosz J.; Li, Xueying C.; Kutra, Dominik; Hériché, Jean-Karim (2024-10-25). "Pervasive sublethal effects of agrochemicals on insects at environmentally relevant concentrations". Science. 386 (6720): 446–453. doi:10.1126/science.ado0251. ISSN 0036-8075.

[8] Barton, Brandon T.; Hill, JoVonn G.; Wolff, Carter L.; Newsome, Thomas M.; Ripple, William J.; Lashley, Marcus A. (2019-09-18). "Grasshopper consumption by grey wolves and implications for ecosystems" (PDF). Ecology. 101 (2): e02892. doi:10.1002/ecy.2892. ISSN 0012-9658. PMID 31531974.

[9] Gandara, Lautaro; Jacoby, Richard; Laurent, François; Spatuzzi, Matteo; Vlachopoulos, Nikolaos; Borst, Noa O.; Ekmen, Gülina; Potel, Clement M.; Garrido-Rodriguez, Martin; Böhmert, Antonia L.; Misunou, Natalia; Bartmanski, Bartosz J.; Li, Xueying C.; Kutra, Dominik; Hériché, Jean-Karim (2024-10-25). "Pervasive sublethal effects of agrochemicals on insects at environmentally relevant concentrations". Science. 386 (6720): 446–453. doi:10.1126/science.ado0251. ISSN 0036-8075.

[10] Cortellessa, Eric; Sheffield, Matthew (November 22, 2019). "The Conservative Establishment's Nightmare Is Only Just Beginning". Washington Monthly. Archived from the original on December 21, 2019. Retrieved April 30, 2020. Fuentes, who identifies as a traditional Catholic and is partially of Hispanic descent...

[11] Cortellessa, Eric; Sheffield, Matthew (November 22, 2019). "The Conservative Establishment's Nightmare Is Only Just Beginning". Washington Monthly. Archived from the original on December 21, 2019. Retrieved April 30, 2020. Fuentes, who identifies as a traditional Catholic and is partially of Hispanic descent...

[12] "Nick Fuentes Trades Parents' Basement for Pricey Livestreaming Den". Southern Poverty Law Center. 2022-11-19.

[13] "Fuentes Victim Of 'Swatting' Incidents: Cops". La Grange, IL Patch. 2023-01-06.

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