- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
Extended fight spilling over to OTRS (ticket:2014012710001401 ). Please would someone drag the warring parties apart, archive some of the junk form the talk page and see iof anything productive can be made from this nonsense.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
n/a
How do you think we can help?
It's likely that WordWrightUSA is a tendentious editor and possibly sockpuppeteer, but it needs more detailed investigation.
Summary of dispute by Ring Cinema
This is about three words. The original sentence: "The film's invocation of fate, romance, and tragedy unfolds through the story of a burn victim in the closing days of World War II Italy whose sacrifices to save the woman he loves spell the end to the dashing Hungarian archaeologist he had been." LimeyCinema1960 has offered the opinion that the last three words are superfluous. In fact, they are necessary to inform the reader that the burn victim and the Hungarian are the same person. Without them, they might refer to different people. I consulted with professional writers on this question and they agree with my assessment. This is a textbook example of the use of the
past perfect continuous ("This form is sometimes used for actions in the past that were interrupted by some event.")
Summary of dispute by WordWrightUSA
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Revision to my original summary: Three words is not the question at hand. Expression is. An example of a possible change to the "draft" was suggested to which the response was that it was recognized that the three words were necessary. Never was there any indication that the new phrasing was acceptable although it basically covered all points in question with a proposal that flowed much better than ending with a statement of fact that if included in the flow earlier does not require the reader to have to reference back to the other parts of the sentence. Also, Wiki includes language in the appropriate article that there are a multitude of ways by which to express and that even when conventional correct rules are followed that it does not necessarily bring forth a sentence that suits the best form of expression and connotation. I should have copied it but there was an example of when following the conventional correct rules Winston Churchhill brought forth a sentence that does not flow well. I reiterate my earlier statement that, is Wiki obligated to a "draft" expression? I believe not. A substitute was offered during the discussion and disregarded and in fact there have been additional suggestions that, again, offer the same intend as that under question but in a much better flow. Is it necessary for a article draft sentence be imposed on those that think otherwise and that is in line with the Wiki ideal of community contribution? Recalcitrant comes to mind.WordWrightUSA (talk) 02:56, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Interesting question at hand. Three words at the end of a sentence: "The film's invocation of fate, romance, and tragedy unfolds through the story of a burn victim in the closing days of World War II Italy whose sacrifices to save the woman he loves spell the end to the dashing Hungarian archaeologist he had been." Are they necessary? Let me ask, is Wikipedia obligated to this sentence? No, if this is a community of contributors. The idea of different wording sequence has been suggested to give encouragement for mental agility but it seems the idea that we are stuck with this sentence permiated the discussion. That there is no other way that the ideas in question cannot be expressed except with "he had been." May I suggest: ""The film's invocation of fate, romance and tragedy unfolds through the story of a once dashing, now burned, Hungarian archaeologist in the closing days of World War II Italy whose sacrifices to save the woman he loves spells their end." JUSTIFICATION: He eventually dies through euthanasia and she, her body vaporized while he flying her body for internment. Her body no longer exists and his life no longer exists. What more can there be to and end? No professional writers are needed to determine suitability. Again, is Wikipedia obligated to the previous expression? I would venture that the response will be no because there are too many discriptives either preceding or following the subject, or some such reason. Again, is Wikipedia obligated to the sentence and the three words in question? — Preceding unsigned comment added by WordWrightUSA (talk • contribs) 18:30, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by LimeyCinema1960
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
If by indications of changes to both the proposed "draft" in question, and the subsequent offering mentioned in the talk page after the dispute was lodged, the point of this action would appear to be obsolete: the disputee has made changes to the proposed text which seems to have had previous acceptance to others. If it is the wish of the disputee to continue then let my previous statement stand.LimeyCinema1960 (talk) 05:55, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Summary of discussion exchange: Being an anthropologist, I am concerned about how people in publications express themselves so that what is implied is as neutral as is possible without offense.
In the article's plot the word FINDS was use to describe Almasys' role with seeing the Cave of Swimmerts, the location of which he was told by the area natives in their own particular way, that the land near it was like the back of a woman. Almasy tells this to us.
RING says that FINDS does not imply discover. That it is being used in the manner as if someone gives directions to a restaurant and you go there.
I(LimeyCinema1960) suggest LOCATE, since Almasy in order for others to verify his work would have to give indicate where they could be found such as with longitude and latitude. instead of relying on what description he was given which to the natives was perfectly suitable but for people not from that area it would not.
RING responded: "Absolutely not. Mapping is a Western cultural imposition on places they are ignorant of [RING did not specify the meaning for "of."]. Exploring is a euphemism for genocide since Columbus, as I'm sure you're aware. All we can accurately say is that Almasy sees the cave. I'm sure you understand how repugnant it is for you to pretend that only a Westerner can map or explore an ancient site."
I was FLOORED. As a trained anthropologist, those are some strong and prejudicial statements. I did not know how to respond to such accusations.
SharpQuillPen, responded: "Exploring is not a euphemism for genocide since Christopher Columbus because not all anthropologists, archaeologist, ethnologists and all the other appropriate cultural and animal scientists have developed the same reactions with natives. Some have developed and maintained very clear and strong relations that have helped build knowledge with these people for many years. If you wish to use the word repugnant then be it for the description of your own actions that bring disrepute. I would never use "sure" in place of "certain" because one has a colloquialism that best not be used in writing. And I would never, if your statement were true, use "pretend" to convey the idea of imply which is a form of pretending but not like fairy tales and such. What a disappointment and embarrassment on your part. What is your next move? Plead confusion, ignorance or transfiguration?
I (LimeyCinema1960) said:. Mapping and exploring has never been a solely reserved prerogative western cultural trait otherwise there would be countless studies made of ancient maps and ancient compilations made over time memorial since it would all be in some European language, but it is not. Instead, there are countless non-European language maps and compilations of information. Do you disagree with that in some manner? I would not want to portray words on your behalf as has been done for me.
Now by the time of Almasy the use of longitude and latitude was in wide use all over the world. Maybe not by every single person but certainly by those that sought to more definitively distinguish one location over another. Amelia Earhart seemed to have found longitude and latitude helpful although we do not know of her absolute location following disappearance. For some reason I do not get from you the idea of respecting consensus. Forgive me for saying it but for me it is a true and accurate statement. Does that sound familiar? I seriously do not accept that non-Europeans would consider it an affront to their culture to use longitude and latitude as a means of measuring and mapping in order to better predict location.
SharpQuillPen, said: "See and explores" is a good choice to identify just what role Almasy had in the Cave issue. It was the natives that told him about it although they did use their relevant descriptive term of the back of a woman rather than "10 degrees North by Noirthwest".
But the biggest reason why I consider the word FIND intends discovery and RING's Presumptive remarks about western culture and Columbus' genocidal exploration............When your professor was taught by some who was taught by Franz Boaz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Boaz
'Physical anthropology'
Boas's work in physical anthropology brought together........
These findings were radical at the time and continue to be debated. In 2002,........
They argued that their results contradicted Boas's original findings and........
New York had confirmed his findings—including the study by Walter Dornfeldt......
Encouraged by this drive to self-criticism, as well as the Boasian commitment to learn from one's informants and to let the findings of one all from a Wiki article!
Summary of dispute by A1Houseboy
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The dispute is opened on three words and one expression. Did any one block the meaning of those three words from being used to clarify the understanding that the "burned man" and the "dashing archaeologist" were the same.
The answer is no by the potential solutions to be found stated in the Discussion section.
Talk:The English Patient (film) discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Coordinator's note: I am not opening this for discussion at this time, but wish to make some comments and requests for clarification. WordWrightUSA left what appeared to be a response to the DRN listing notice on his talk page. I've left a note there saying that he must respond here if he wishes to participate in this discussion. @LimeyCinema1960: Does "Need more be said?" mean you do not wish to participate further here? (If so, that's okay: participation in mediated content dispute resolution is always voluntary.) If you do wish to continue to participate, however, your opening statement, above, goes more to conduct than it does to content and we do not discuss or resolve conduct matters at this noticeboard. Please revise it to focus only on content matters, preferably on one or two specific edits or desired edits rather than on general issues. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:13, 28 January 2014 (UTC) (DRN coordinator)
- After reading the proposed dispute I do have to add that literature has many ways of being expressed and that instead of holding fast to one proposal why not look within oneself for others? This was not done. Never did it seem that to these professional writers was the question posed is there any other way of saying it? But we are left with "my assessment." The discussions on the talk page seemed to be presented in such personalized manners that just disregarded the objective that when something was first presented, then critiqued that the critique held no value and that there was no other way of saying something. And that no only was the critique valueless but that "professional writers" supported the unchangeable expression. That is not community involved contributions. That is a ping pong match and all you get is someone who is a winner and the other, loser.LimeyCinema1960 (talk) 18:57, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- Those comments should have appeared with the others instead of here. Sorry. These computer screens can open up in the most bizarre places.LimeyCinema1960 (talk) 21:59, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
- @LimeyCinema1960: I'm afraid that I don't understand what you mean by, "If my participation rests on "Need more be said?" then read it as if they never appeared!" Do you mean that we should regard this as if you never appeared here? Or do you mean that we should regard the words "Need more be said?" as having never appeared here? Also, as I noted above, if you do wish to continue to participate, however, your opening statement, above, goes more to conduct than it does to content and we do not discuss or resolve conduct matters at this noticeboard. Please revise your opening statement to focus only on content matters, preferably on one or two specific edits or desired edits rather than on general issues. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 22:09, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
As I see it, the problem with the sentence in question is complicated by the fact that it is a
run on sentence. Could we start by agreeing that it should be broken into two sentences (I'm using the version of the sentence which is currently in the article, rather than that set out by Ring Cinema, above):
"The film's invocation of fate, romance, and tragedy, unfolds through the story of a burn victim in World War II Italy. A once dashing archaeologist, his sacrifices to save the woman he loves spell his end."
How about that? If we can agree on that much as a framework, we can then talk about any desired additional changes. Regards,
TransporterMan (
TALK)
15:36, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Basically a version of the prosed sentence had already been in use during the dispute process and the dispute has even made changes to it so all that really needs to be done is making the proposed two sentence solution. I hope it works out. There are many other things that with a transcript of the film language points out statements that are not supported by the script.LimeyCinema1960 (talk) 23:53, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Ring Cinema characterizes the identification of the improvement as a "silly mistake."WordWrightUSA (talk) 19:42, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
The only difference seems to be: "Italy. A" It gives me the visual of that portion of Michelangelo's work on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel ceiling: "The Creation of Adam." Just that we bit separation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WordWrightUSA (talk • contribs) 19:51, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Sorry to say that Ring continues to go edit crazy on the page and that when the history of "contributions" were reviewed that they seem to be solely to the plot and no other parts of the article or any original research to a recent article. That some portions of the plot taken on face value were left to their own devices and remained onl, through her own insistence of someone providing absolute film evidence as so, a copy of the film dialogue transcript was found and several points that if Ring had research capabilities as asserted by her assertion of composition they certainly did not show in the plot development process. I see that Ring being the disputee who lodge this action seems to act as if it does not exist with no response. Talk about stonewalling! Ring has lodged several 3 revert threats at people but evidently has ceased to follow through as it was found out that Ring's own actions will also be part of the review. I said that if Ring did not play mother at tea so much that there would not be so many reverts and changes attributed to her thus causing others that found the expression acceptable having to change so much. I suspect that Ring has not had the best of time controlling the group since we now have the film dialogue transcript. It is so convenient to locate those portions of the film that concern a particular issue thus leaving out speculation. Although it was Ring's assertion of speculation that caused the disovcery of the transcriopt because Ring based an initial assertion on a storyline script. Through due dilligence, it would have been found that the copy did not reflect large portions of the film dialogue therefore was not definitive. Also, looking at the end would have shown that the movie finished with katherine in the Cave, an obvious overlook. So, it can, with a less than desireable suggestion so far, be suspected that Ring is evading comment because notices are sent to those involved in this resolution actitivy. I just attempted to remove a cliche from the plot that I believe was proposed by Ring and it seems to contually be reverted yet i serious think that if someone else had proposed it that Ring's mastery of composition would have drawn notice of the change because of being a cliche. Sounds liker someone who will use what is convenient to put forth their views without regard to consistency.LimeyCinema1960 (talk) 19:19, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
Discussion response per Dispute mediation:
Proposed suggestions:
LimeyCinema1960 (talk) 02:44, 26 January 2014 (UTC:
"The film's invocation of fate, romance, and tragedy unfolds through the story of a burned man in the closing days of World War II Italy who, as a dashing Hungarian archaeologist, sacrificed to save his love and instead spells their end."
WordWrightUSA (talk) 22:53, 28 January 2014 (UTC):
"The film's invocation of fate, romance, and tragedy unfolds through the story of a, once dashing, now burned Hungarian archaeologist in the closing days of World War II Italy whose sacrifices to save the woman he loves spells their end."
"The film's invocation of fate, romance, and tragedy unfolds through the story of a once dashing now burned Hungarian archaeologist in the closing days of World War II Italy whose sacrifices spell their end to save the woman he loves."
A1Houseboy (talk • contribs) 01:25, 29 January 2014 (UTC):
"The film's invocation of fate, romance, and tragedy unfolds through the story of a once dashing now burned Hungarian archaeologist in the closing days of war in Italy whose sacrifices to save the woman he loves spell their end."
Betty Logan (talk) 09:40, 28 January 2014 (UTC), seem to recognized that if there were construction problems then they should be fixedcommented that it needed to be explicit:
"Comment I think it needs to be explicit that the burn victim and the "Hungarian archaeologist" are one and the same. If editors are dissatisified [sic] with Ring's version then maybe they should attempt integrating the information in another way, because if you haven't seen the film the current version is potentially confusing."
Why not fixed that which has been proposed. And, what better to make it explicit than with its own sentence, unless without some expression such as those suggested could.
Ring Cinema (talk) 02:03, 27 January 2014 (UTC) sought: "professional writers. They laughed at your mistake. I guess when it comes to Wikipedia, you are the problem. Good luck with that."
WordWrightUSA (talk) 03:18, 27 January 2014 (UTC) advised: "not all "professional writers" get the same rewards."
That would appear correct as not all people who characterize their activities with writing as their form of income receive the same monetary rewards and acculades. Even, Winston Churchill found it financially beneficial to do so. For it's hilarity, the following has helped rejuvenate many a tour crowd at Churchill-related sites and his view on conventional rules (usually recited without the vulgarity):
“This is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I will not put.” (http://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/07/04/churchill-preposition/; also included in the Oxford Companion to the English Language (no edition cited).
So, writing is a skill that obviously best works when it conveys the idea in a simple manner instead of creating the need for additional expressions or clarification in the same statement. Sentences can be conveyed when they modify that which comes at the beginning but the clarification at the end.
But, it seems that the numerous suggestions were insufficient to convince although they all contained the idea of those three words in a different location. WordWrightUSA points this out: "The obvious can be so in plain sight. (talk • contribs) 03:47, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Instead, Ring Cinema concentrates on the words rather than the idea surviving:
"Limey made an obvious mistake and he hasn't figured out how to correct himself. That's his problem. Why don't you try to help the poor fellow? He really needs it." Ring Cinema--(talk) 03:22, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
"I notice you're not interested in the substance here. Your personal attacks are out of order." --Ring Cinema (talk) 04:56, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
"It's funny that you can't see your mistake since you got it right in your alternate draft. Take another look at my edit there and you might figure it out. --Ring Cinema (talk) 16:04, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Then of course with this dispute there was a preliminary recommendation that seemed acceptable but for a few changes:
TransporterMan (TALK) 15:36, 30 January 2014 (UTC):
"As I see it, the problem with the sentence in question is complicated by the fact that it is a run on sentence. Could we start by agreeing that it should be broken into two sentences (I'm using the version of the sentence which is currently in the article, rather than that set out by Ring Cinema":
"The film's invocation of fate, romance, and tragedy, unfolds through the story of a burn victim in World War II Italy. A once dashing archaeologist, his sacrifices to save the woman he loves spell his end."
And at last sight it was:
"The film's invocation of fate, romance, and tragedy unfolds through the story of a burn victim in World War II Italy. Once, a dashing archaeologist, his sacrifices to save the woman he loves spell his end."
That seems simple enough to show that there is consensus since only one party has continually reverted it into one sentence.
So if it was the intention of the party to have this mediated then it appears that has been achieved and should with good faith be accepted as part of the Wikipedia spirit of community contributors.
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.