Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 246
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Rafida
Closed as partially failed and partially being resolved. I have activated the RFC, and it will be used to decide on whether to restore the sentence in question. Discussion of other aspects of the content dispute has failed because one editor has posted lengthy statements that I did not request, and the other editor has complained at some length. This is not getting anywhere. Wait for the RFC to run for 30 days and then be closed. In the meantime, either resume discussion at the article talk page, being civil and concise, or discuss editor conduct at WP:ANI after reading the boomerang essay. There is a higher survivor percentage at an article talk page than at WP:ANI. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:53, 20 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview In a series of edits, I revised and improved this article by removing unsourced or poorly-sourced claims and rewriting large parts of the text. I do this regularly to select articles, usually in preparation for GA submissions. Large parts of my edits were undone without due explanation by the user Shadowwarrior8. In particular, please see [1] and [2]. For a second time, one by one, I addressed the problematic bits of the article, this time carefully detailing each issue separately in its edit summary. Another user, Aqsian313, also helped with addressing some of the issues. For instance, he removed a sentence that I had earlier marked by the [citation needed] template. (Please see here.) All these edits were again undone by Shadowwarrior8. Please see here. This is when I took the issue to the talk page, which you can see here. In particular, Aqsian313 commented there in favor of my version of the article. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I'd like to ask you to undo the unexplained mass-revert [3] Summary of dispute by Shadowwarrior8Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I reverted a series of disruptive edits made by user Albertatiran which involved the removal of encyclopaedic sources with in-line citations (here) and insertion of several unsourced POV edits. (see the edit history of the page) The user was unable to bring any in-line citation as demonstrated in the talk page of the article. The user's proposed version cant be inserted because it consists of unsourced sectarian POV and removal of sourced content. This issue isnt even a content dispute, because unsourced POV claims have no place in wikipedia in the first place. Content disputes mostly occur when two or more editors differ over how to paraphrase information present in academic sources. On the other hand, the user Albertatiran removed academic sources by engaging in "idontlikeit"-style arguments. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 15:10, 13 April 2024 (UTC) Rafida discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Rafida)The filing editor did not notify the other editor, but the other editor has made a statement, so I am willing to try to moderate the dispute. The editors should list and notify the other editors who have discussed the dispute on the article talk page. I know nothing of the subject matter, and will expect the editors to provide any background information that is important. Please read DRN RuleA and state that you will follow the rules during the discussion. The purpose of content discussion is to improve the article, so I am asking each editor to state concisely what they want to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). Robert McClenon (talk) 21:23, 14 April 2024 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (Rafida)
First statement by moderator (Rafida)It appears that the current version is that of Shaddowwarrior8. Albertatiran wants to revert Shaddowwarrior8's edits, and says that they have poor sources. Aqsian313 appears to agree and to support Albertatiran's removal of Shaddowwarrior8's edits. Shaddowwarrior8 has not replied to my request that they agree to the rules. If Shaddowwarrior8 does not make a statement within about 24 hours, I will close this thread due to incomplete participation, and will advise the editors who have said what they want to edit boldly. Are there any questions, or any final statements? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:06, 17 April 2024 (UTC) First statements by editors (Rafida)Second statement by moderator (Rafida)Rather than providing diffs comparing one version and another, I am now asking each editor to provide the actual wording that they propose to use, in the lede section and in the Definition section. After I have seen the different wordings side by side, we will try to reach a compromise. If you are willing to propose a compromise wording, please provide it also. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:33, 17 April 2024 (UTC) Second statements by editors (Rafida)@Robert McClenon: Thanks for the follow-up. What follows is the text I'd like to propose, which is borrowed from the version I advocated for in my first statement. In keeping with the common practice around here, references are omitted from the lede below. However, every claim there is already attributed in the body of the article. Albertatiran (talk) 10:56, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Robert McClenon, the following is the wording which I propose to insert in the lede and the "Definition" section:
END QUOTE Note that in the above version, I also made slight improvements in the lede sentence and last sentence of the "Definition" section. Thank you. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 17:33, 18 April 2024 (UTC) Third statement by moderator (Rafida)I have read the two proposed versions. Does either editor have any questions about the reliability of the sources used by the other editor? If so, please state what sources are considered questionable, and we will ask about them at the Reliable Source Noticeboard. Otherwise, please state briefly and concisely what your concerns are about the other proposed version. Are there any other content issues, or any questions? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:28, 20 April 2024 (UTC) Third statements by editors (Rafida)Regarding sources, I don't consider a Britannica article authored by "The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica" a reliable source, especially when there is no shortage of expert material about the topic by the likes of E. Kohlberg and M. Momen, among others. Even if it were to be considered a reliable source, this would have been a case of WP:FRINGE because this particular Britannica article goes against the academic consensus and should receive little or no weight in our article per WP:DUE, let alone replace the experts' views, as Shadowwarrior8 has done in his version. Every reliable source is unequivocally clear that Rafida is a deragotary nickname. Reliable sources are also clear that the title is largely applied by Sunnis (and also by Zaydis, according to some sources) to the majority of Shias for condemning the first three caliphs after the Islamic prophet Muhammad. For instance, please consult the EI article by Kohlberg, cited also in our own article, particularly the first and last pages of his article. There are other major concerns about the version proposed by Shadowwarrior8 but perhaps we can start with the one discussed above. Thank you for your consideration. Albertatiran (talk) 10:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC) The main problem with the version of user Albertatiran is that it reduces "Rafida" as a polemical term and denies the existence of shia sects which identified itself as 'Rafida' throughout history. My version is historically accurate as well as academically correct because there have been several Shia sects which identified themselves as 'Raafida' for over a 1000 years. Currently there are many Twelver Shia clerics who identify the Twelver Shiites as 'Raafidites'.
While it is true that Sunni and Zaydi scholars use the term 'Raafida' in a derogatory way, this doesnt mean that 'Raafida' sects who rejected the legitimacy of the caliphates of Abubakr and Omar didnt exist. This is explained in several sources in the article. The term "fascist" is often used as a slur by various political factions, but this doesnt mean fascists do not exist. (I'm obviously not suggesting that "Raafida" are similar to fascists, I am just demonstrating an example in wikipedia.)
Additionally, the religious texts of Twelver Shi'ites are full of praise for the term "Rawafid". Kohlberg's article which is cited above explains this with excerpts from the primary sources of Twelver Shi'is. Furthermore, contemporary Twelver Shia clerics also identify themselves as "Rawafid" or "Rafidah". Here is an excerpt from the website "al-islam.org", which is arguably the most popular Twelver shia religious site in the internet: (source: https://www.al-islam.org/ask/why-are-the-shia-sometimes-called-rawafid-or-rejectors-by-their-opponents-what-did-the-shia-reject/rebecca-masterton ) Another religious website popular amongst Twelver shi'ites is literally titled "The Rafida Foundation". The last two sources are not reliable in wikipedia, but I cited them to demonstrate how Twelver Shi'ah community continues to identify themselves as "Rafida". This is also demonstrated in various sources which I cited above. There has been several Rafida shia sects which existed throughout history, most of which went extinct, except the Twelver Shia. So the page "Rafida" should present an accurate and precise academic information of these raafida sects, (regarding their history, beliefs, evolution, etc.) rather than giving undue weight to the polemical usage of the term by Sunnis and Zaydis. I would suggest that usage of "Rafida" as a derogatory term is outside of the scope of this article and it is better to document that in a seperate article titled "Rafida (slur)" or "Rafida (insult)". Another problem with Albertatiran's edits is that it contained several unsourced edits with sectarian POV. For example, Albertatiran wrote in the page: "This nickname has been reinterpreted favorably by some Shia scholars to signify Shias' rejection of their oppressive Sunni rulers." Obviously, this is a POV edit which explictly advances a sectarian victimhood narrative, and it cannot be inserted in wikivoice. I reverted that edit and re-instated the previous impartial tone, which is more in line with the sources presented in the body of the page: "Several Shia scholars view the term in a favourable light to signify Shias' rejection of whom they regard as oppressive Sunni rulers." Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 05:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
References
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Cite error: A list-defined reference named "FOOTNOTEKohlberg1979678" is not used in the content (see the help page). Fourth statement by moderator (Rafida)I apologize for the delay in responding. Let's try again. Albertatiran says that:Can Shadowwarrior8 please provide a reliable source that indicates that some Shia apply the term "Rafida" to themselves? We should not make a statement about "Every reliable source" if some, even a few, reliable sources disagree. Albertatiran questions the use of the Encyclopedia Britannica as a source. There has in the past been no consensus on the reliability of Britannica. Do you want to submit a question to the Reliable Source Noticeboard about the reliability of the source in the specific context? Since it appears that reliable sources disagree, we should provide an assessment of what the majority and minority of reliable sources say. I would like each editor to provide a revised proposal for what you would like the lede and the Definitions sections to say. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:18, 27 April 2024 (UTC) Please be concise in your statements. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:18, 27 April 2024 (UTC) Fourth statements by editors (Rafida)Hi Robert McClenon, thanks for your time. From my earlier response, let me please quote here again: "Here is the gist of Kohlberg's EI article... Rafida is a pejorative generally applied to Twelvers (the Shia majority) and less so to a number of (small or extinct) Shia subsects. Over time, some Shia figures reinterpreted the term favorably. Why did they do so? Kohlberg speculates elsewhere that Shias realized that they were stuck with the abusive nickname and simply decided to embrace it.[1]" So, the answer to your first question is affirmative, and my version of the article already says so too. Below, I'm quoting from that version: From the lede: "This nickname has been reinterpreted favorably by some Shia scholars to signify Shias' rejection of their oppressive Sunni rulers." From the body of the article: "Rooted in early Islamic history, the term Rafida is still used in Sunni polemics, but has also been reinterpreted favorably by some Shia scholars to signify 'rejection' of all tyranny and the Shia struggle against oppressive Sunni rulers.[2]" Also from the body of the article: "Some Imamite Shia scholars consider the term to be an honorific title and identify themselves as Rafida.[3] In the contemporary era, some Shias in Iraq and Lebanon view the term as a source of pride and use it as a symbol of revolt against tyranny.[2]' So, while I'm very much grateful for your help, I'm not sure how this particular question would help settle the dispute. I agree that it's a good idea to refer Britannica to the Reliable Source Noticeboard. Should I go ahead and submit a question there? As for your request for proposals, my argument is as before: This Britannica article is not reliable. Even if it were reliable, it's a fringe view that goes against the well established academic consensus. The former says that most Shias accept the first two caliphs, in contradistinction to the latter. The fringe (and factually incorrect) view should receive no weight in the article. The rest of the Britannica article reads like other reliable sources, that is, Rafida is a deragotary nickname, as perceived by most Shias. I can't convey this any better than what I have already done in my previous proposal. However, further down, in the section "Rafida in Twelver Shia tradition," there is room to add more details about how Shias responded to this nickname. Thanks again. Albertatiran (talk) 23:50, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon Well, I already provided several sources which state that the Twelver Shias (also known as "Imami shias") refer to themselves as "Raafida" in my previous comment.
References
Fifth statement by moderator (Rafida)There has been a proposal to split the article into two articles, Rafida and Rafida (insult). I would like a concise statement from each editor as to their opinion about this proposal. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion, and do not address comments directly to the other editor. We already know that back-and-forth discussion preceded moderated discussion and has not resulted in agreement. You may make suggestions to the moderator as to what he should say to the other editor. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:16, 1 May 2024 (UTC) I will ask for an opinion from the Reliable Source Noticeboard about the Britannica as a source in the specific context. Fifth statements by editors (Rafida)My proposal was that contents in the page regarding the polemical usage of the term "Rafida" can be transferred to a new article titled "Rafida (slur)" or "Rafida (insult)". The current "Rafida" article can solely focus on the academic discussion of Shia rafida sects and their history. In my opinion, such an arrangement could present the information in a clarifying manner to a random reader. Otherwise, it may cause confusion to many readers. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 08:32, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
(Some) Shias also describe themselves as Rafida, in the same way that a bullied kid may try to "own" his/her abusive nickname. Etan Kohlberg writes that:
To sum, Rafida is a derogatory nickname for Shias which has been favorably reinterpreted by some of them. In my view, the two applications of the term Rafida are too entangled to be split into separate articles. There would be way too much overlap between the articles to justify the split; see WP:CONTENTSPLIT. Ultimately, as noted earlier, this matter should be decided by consensus on the talk page. Albertatiran (talk) 18:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC) Sixth statement by moderator (Rafida)One editor has proposed that a separate article Rafia (insult) be split off. The other editor disagrees, but says that this should be put to a vote on the article talk page. We can follow the procedures described in WP:Splitting. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:44, 4 May 2024 (UTC) If either editor wants a question asked about the reliability as a source of the Encyclopedia Britannica for a particular statement, please identify the particular statement, and I will take the question to the Reliable Source Noticeboard. What other content issues are there? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:44, 4 May 2024 (UTC) Sixth statements by editors (Rafida)I dont think there is any reason as to why Encyclopaedia Britannica's entry on "Rafida" has to be discarded, when other encyclopaedic books refer to Rafida sects in similar way. Here are some quotations from English-language encyclopaedic books:
Hi Robert McClenon, Britannica's article on Rafida reads,
The above claim is factually incorrect. The (overwhelming) majority of Shias do in fact condemn the first three successors of Muhammad (caliphs). In their view, these caliphs usurped this political position (caliphate) from Muhammad's designated successor, Ali ibn Abi Talib. For them, the first three caliphs thus left the faith.[5][6][7] (For convenience, I've cited here only from our article's current sources.) If this Britannica article is wrong about this basic fact, what other errors could it contain? Why insist on citing a Britannica article authored by "The Editors of the Encyclopaedia Britannica" when there are several excellent academic research and reference articles on the topic? (There are exceptions like this Britannica article authored by two well-known Islamicists, which is indeed cited in our article about Ali.) I'd also like to bring to your attention that the other editor's statement consists of disconnected quotes and original research, like this one: "Infact, in the above book's index section, 'Shia' and "Rafida" are used interchangeably." Regarding his other concerns, perhaps those can wait until a later round, since that discussion would distract us from the question at hand in this round regarding the reliability of Britannica in this context. Albertatiran (talk) 10:18, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
Seventh statement by moderator (Rafida)I have posted a question at the Reliable Source Noticeboard about the Encyclopedia Britannica as a source for Rafida. One editor has proposed that a separate article Rafida (insult) be split off. The other editor disagrees, but says that this should be put to a vote on the article talk page. We can follow the procedures described in WP:Splitting. I will start the splitting discussion within 36 hours. Are there any other specific article content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:59, 7 May 2024 (UTC) Seventh statements by editors (Rafida)@Robert McClenon Regarding other content issues, in the "Context" section there was a statement "
I think that by now in this discussion, I've summed up all the content issues outside of the lede and "Definition" section. Thank you. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 5:40, 8 May 2024 (UTC) @Robert McClenon: Thank you for posting the question about Britannica. Do you think we have a verdict there? To keep the discussion focused, I'd like to present only one or two issues in every round and afterward address one or two of the concerns raised by the other editor. I'll also wait until all those issues are resolved before moving on to new ones. I hope this is acceptable.
Lede summarizes the article and commonly leaves out sources for the sake of readability. In particular, the above claims appear in the body of the article with reliable sources:
Why was the above reliably-sourced content removed from the lede? I'd like that to be restored.
Eighth statement by moderator (Rafida)One editor opposes a split discussion, saying: The feedback from the Reliable Source Noticeboard is that Encyclopedia Britannica is a tertiary source, like Wikipedia, and that the use of secondary sources is preferred/ Otherwise, there appears to be disagreement about the specific use. So it is best not to include any statements that are sourced only to Britannica. So please identify exactly what changes you want made in the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:16, 11 May 2024 (UTC) Eighth statements by editors (Rafida)Hi Robert McClenon, thank you for your patience. There are about a dozen instances of content-removal and unsourced edits by Shadowwarrior8 that I wish to be addressed. I'd like to begin with the following, copied from my previous statement. The mass-revert in question removed the following text from the lede:
Lede summarizes the article and commonly leaves out sources for the sake of readability. In particular, the above claims appear in the body of the article with reliable sources:
Why was the above reliably-sourced content removed from the lede? I'd like that to be restored. Albertatiran (talk) 06:31, 12 May 2024 (UTC) Robert McClenon, I'd largely like to maintain the current version of the article, with a little bit of improvements. Since you've asked to state it precisely, I shall start delineating it.
END QUOTE The above is the same version which I proposed in the second statement. I'd like to maintain the current version of the "Context" and "History" sections. In the "History" section, I am ok with removing sources "alukah.net" and "al-Hussein al-Houthi", as I stated in the Zeroth statement. [PS: Regarding Encyclopædia Britannica, several sources have already been provided (some of which are already present alongside it in the page) which backs up the contents in the "Definition" section and the lede. So, in any case, it is not used as a stand-alone source. I've read several other academic sources which explains "Rafida" in a similar way. It should be noted that there isn't particularly any incorrect information in the "Rafidah" entry of Britannica. Infact, it's contents are more or less in similar pattern to entries regarding "Rafidah" in other English-language encyclopaedic sources.] Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 14:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC) Ninth statement by moderator (Rafida). This sentence was removed from the lede by User:Shadowwarrior8. User:Albertatiran wants it restored. I Are there any other content issues that either of you want addressed promptly? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:23, 14 May 2024 (UTC) Ninth statements by editors (Rafida)Tenth statement by moderator (Rafida)I am still asking for a statement of why the removed sentence either should have been removed or should be restored. However, I have another question. The sentence in question was removed from the lede. The lede should summarize the content, or the most important content, in the body of the article. I could not find a comparable statement in the body of the article. Was it previously in the body of the article? If it should be restored to the lede, what should be restored to the body of the article that is comparable? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:43, 14 May 2024 (UTC) Tenth statements by editors (Rafida)Hi Robert McClenon, sorry for the late reply. 1) The lead section should be a standalone summary of the article as most visitors would not continue to read the main body of the article, according to WP:LEDE. This does not mean that every sentence in the lede should be copied from the main article. I've given below the removed sentence and the paragraph in (an earlier version of) the article that it's meant to summarize. (Note the text in bold font). While I'm open to a discussion on the talk page about alternative ways to summarize the paragraph below, altogether removing reliably-sourced content from the lede or anywhere else in the article (without reaching a consensus on the talk page) is unacceptable per WP:REMOVAL. Undiscussed content removal is also almost never done with the intention of improving the article. First, the removed sentence should be restored. Only then there could be a discussion on the talk page about potentially better ways to summarize the paragraph below. Removed sentence:
Corresponding paragraph in this version of article follows next. Later Shadowwarrior8 removed the name of Islamic State and made some other changes to the paragraph below.
2) In their previous statement, Shadowwarrior8 wrote that Britannica "is not used as a stand-alone source." This is false. Footnote 1 of the article quotes the following from Britannica without providing additional sources. Either the quote below should be removed or Shadowwarrior8 should corroborate that claim with reliable secondary sources. Actually, earlier I listed multiple reliable sources that contradict the statement below (that only a minority of Shias condemn the first caliphs for usurping Ali's right to the caliphate). The onus is on Shadowwarrior8 to show that what follows is the majority view in academia.
3) The are several other cases of content removal and unsourced or poorly sourced edits in the mass revert in question. However, I'd like to wait until the above issues are resolved before putting forward the rest. Albertatiran (talk) 02:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC) Robert McClenon: " Eleventh statement by moderator (Rafida)At this point I am trying to focus only on the issue of whether to restore the removed sentence. I have created a draft RFC at Talk:Rafida/RFC on Sentence in Lede. After any tweaking, I will move it to the article talk page, and it will become a live RFC for thirty days. In the meantime, you may comment on it. Do not !vote in it until it is activated by moving it to the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:30, 17 May 2024 (UTC) I am still asking what sentence that either is or was in the body of the article it is meant to correspond to. When I ask questions about how article content is to be changed, I am not asking for discussion of what the other editor has done or why the other editor is mistaken. Comment at this time only on the draft RFC. Other issues can be discussed later. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:30, 17 May 2024 (UTC) Eleventh statements by editors (Rafida)@Robert McClenon: Thank you for creating the RFC. It's a bit unclear for me when/where I should add my comment. Anyway, below please find my statement. Right venue: The mass-revert in question consisted of several content-removals and unsourced or poorly-sources edits, like this one. However, it seems reasonable to first settle the active issues before moving on to the rest. As for the venue, since unmoderated discussion on the talk page failed immediately, this page is the right place to resolve the matters per WP:DRN. (Indeed, this was Shadowwarrior8's second mass-revert. After the first mass-revert, I addressed the problems with that version of the article in separate edits with explanatory edit summaries. All there these edits were again reverted by Shadowwarrior8 without any explanation, besides the usual labels, like Britannica: In his previous statement, Shadowwarrior8 wrote that, Footnote 1 of our article, which quotes Britannica:
Kohlberg's EI2 (which Shadowwarrior8 cited to support Footnote 1): (Those "sinner" companions obviously includes the the first three caliphs, that is, the usurpers. This is implicit in this quote, but it's made explicit in numerous other reliable sources, including the three I gave in an earlier statement.) Lede: If Shadowwarrior8 believes that the paragraph in question is of minor importance or relevance and that it should be hidden from the majority of visitors to the page (who would not go on to read the full article), then he/she should reach a consensus on the talk page to that effect. Removal of reliably-sourced content is unacceptable per WP:REMOVAL. Quoting from that page, Moderator's question: The removed sentence from the lede does not correspond to any sentence in the body of the article. Article's lede is its summary and need not borrow verbatim from its body. In this case, the following paragraph in the article essentially says that, for some Sunni schools and currents, the term Rafida signifies that Shias have rejected the true Islam and are thus heretics, against whom violence is justified. The removed sentence, in my view, does a good job in conveying that to the reader. Removed sentence:
Corresponding paragraph from an earlier version of the article:
Albertatiran (talk) 06:46, 18 May 2024 (UTC) Addendum Hi Robert McClenon, somehow I missed the last paragraph of your statement; hence the complaint in my own statement about the lack of clarity. As a result, my statement contains other comments too (but so does the statement of the other editor). It was an honest mistake and I'm sorry about that. However, I'd like to ask that we later revisit the standalone quote from Britannica in Footnote 1. By now I've given four reliable sources that contradict that footnote. Albertatiran (talk) 17:44, 19 May 2024 (UTC) Robert McClenon: " Despite your clear instruction, the other editor proceeded to bludgeon an incoherent wall of text in the reply, mainly focused on various allegations against me. It is apparent that the other editor treats wikipedia as some sort of personal battleground, as evident from the editor's behaviour pattern throughout this discussion. Robert McClenon: " Despite this clear instruction, the user proceeded to comment here and began discussing other content issues. It's clear that the other editor is engaging in disruptive behaviour that has sabotaged the moderated discussion. This sort of bludgeoning behaviour is totally unacceptable and the other editor should face consequences for this. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 13:00, 19 May 2024 (UTC) Robert McClenon, since I'm not free for some days, I thought I could comment some suggestions regarding this discussion process as early as possible. Do you plan to continue this discussion process during the RfC? Either way, I propose the initiation of some disengagement measures since it has become clear that this discussion is an extended and lengthy process. My initial assessment was that this file would have closed within 1 or 2 weeks; and my responses - which included a mix of arguments, concessions, improvements and quotations from academic references - were oriented towards a quick resolution. (Read "Summary of dispute by Shadowwarrior8"). Hence, I responded at 1 statement/2 days rate. I have a tighter work schedule nowadays in real life, and it is not possible for me to keep up with 1 statement/2 days rate any longer. I propose to conduct the discussion at a 1 statement/2 weeks rate from now on. This can improve the overall quality of the discussion and also increase the decisiveness of each statement. I think such an arrangement may help you as well in analyzing the voluminous discussions in this dispute. Editors are free to take a break, and I shall comment again here in the next Sunday, if there is a new statement from you. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 19:16, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
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Robert (doll)
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Closed as premature, and inadequately filed. The discussion on the talk page, Talk:Robert (doll), has not been extensive. I have changed the filing to identify the subject article. Resume discussion at the article talk page. Also, the filing editor did not notify the other editors. If discussion at the article talk page resumes, and is lengthy and inconclusive, a new case can be filed here, listing the article correctly, and listing and notifying the other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:14, 22 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview I, Gabriellemcnell, have been attempting to update Robert (doll)'s page with relevant and factual information that is not currently on the page. The information the page is currently missing has to do with Robert's historical origins, cultural context, cultural impact, and exposure in popular culture. The edits I published were backed by independent sources multiple times where necessary. I received permission and primary source documentation on the updated information regarding Robert through the Key West Art and Historical Society, who are the foremost experts and rights holders of Robert himself. Moments after successfully publishing the edits to Robert (doll)'s page, user @LuckyLouie had reverted it and notified me of this through the talk page on my account, @Gabriellemcnell. I reviewed his reasonings for the revert and attempted to reason with him through my talk page. The next edit I published was removing the sources that did not comply with the FRIND guidelines. By removing the fringe sources, which were LuckyLouie's main concern, I thought the page would stay updated as it complies with the necessary citations for the factual information within. User LuckyLouie took down the page again, within 24 hours, and began attacking my editing character on my talk page. I refrained from further edits to stop any edit warring from happening. I continued my attempts at reasoning with LuckyLouie but they were not able to specify what the exact problem with my initial edits were. User DonaldAlbury then joined the conversation on my talk page and attacked my editing character as well. I have tried to reason with DonaldAlbury and request specific problems to no avail. I do not know what else to do as Robert's page is still out of date and inaccurate. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gabriellemcnell How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I'd like to publish the original edits I made to Robert's page that have since been reverted. If I try to publish the page again with these edits, these users will revert it. Robert's page, once updated, needs to be protected or the users involved need to specify what their issue is or the users involved need to be restricted in reverting edits to Robert's page Summary of dispute by LuckyLouiePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by DonaldAlburyPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Gabriellemcnell discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Undetectable.ai
Closed as premature. There has not been extensive discussion on the article talk page. Discuss on the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:22, 22 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview I have attempted to add a "controversies" section to this page on several occasions over the last several months. The user "Comintell" has instantly changed my content back multiple times. They seem to have a vested interest in this company not receiving any attention that could be perceived as negative which constitutes a bias not in line with Wikipedia's values. Their claim is that my sources are inadequate despite being from government websites and articles mentioned on other Wikipedia pages respectively. I don't want to engage in an "edit war" with this user and they have failed to respond to any of my communications explaining my reasoning sent in response to their removals of my content. Please let me know if this user could be kept from editing this page further or simply kept from removing my content which is well sourced and legitimate. Thank you. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sesame119#c-Comintell-20240520235300-May_2024 How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Ask this user to engage in a dialogue with me since they seem intent on removing certain verifiable information. I would like to understand their genuine reasoning. Or alternatively remove editing power of this user from the Undetectable.ai Wikipedia page. Summary of dispute by ComintellPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Undetectable.ai discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Ibn Battuta
Closed, again. A similar request was filed a few days ago that failed to list the other editors, and failed to notify them of this listing. There does not appear to have been lengthy and inconclusive discussion on an article talk page. Request advice at the Teahouse. After requesting and receiving advice, discuss at the article talk page. Do not file another request here unless advice has been requested, and unless there is extensive and inconclusive discussion on an article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:33, 22 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview 1.Clarity for Modern Readers: The current description uses “Tangier, Marinid Sultanate” and “Maghrebi traveler.” While this is historically significant, it may not be clear to most modern readers. Using “Tangier, Morocco” and “Moroccan traveler” could provide more immediate understanding. 2.Historical Context: While it’s important to use terms that modern readers will understand, it’s also crucial to provide historical context. We can mention that during Ibn Battuta’s time, Morocco was known as “al-Maghrib al-Aqsa” within the broader Maghreb region. This provides both clarity and historical accuracy. 3.Standard Practices: Wikipedia typically describes the birthplace and death of historical figures in relation to current countries, not the ruling entity of the time. This is especially relevant when the entity, in this case, the “Marinid Sultanate”, no longer exists. While Tangier and Marrakech are well known cities in Morocco. Aligning the article with this practice would maintain consistency across Wikipedia.
[[4]] How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? it would be best to involve an administrator to help mediate this dispute and ensure that the most accurate information is presented on the page. Ibn Battuta discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Eurovision Song Contest 2024 - Israel
Closed as probably not the right forum. Moderated discussion at DRN is very seldom an effective way of resolving a dispute with 23 editors. A Request for Comments on whether to split the article is probably more likely to be effective. Also, discussion on the article talk page has not been sufficient. Resume discussion at the article talk page. It might be a good idea also to request advice at the Teahouse on how to proceed with this dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:39, 22 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview There is an ongoing heated dispute over the level of detail given in the main article related to the coverage of Israel at this year's contest. There is a lot of want to include a lot of detail about the participation of Israel from including it prominently in the lede, to having multiple detailed sections in the main article. There is a need to ensure that policies on neutrality, balance, recentism, excessive detail, etc. are followed. There is a want to include based on the amount of media coverage and a want to include things unrelated to the contest in and of itself. The article is in danger of becoming not an article on the contest as a whole but an article on Israel's participation with some other things on the side. There is already an article specifically for Israel at the Evisovion Song Contest 2024. There is a need to avoid having a duplicate. There seems to be a push to include a lot more information on Israel than is warranted simply because some media outlets spilt a lot of ink writing about it, some people shouted very loudly through various means, and the Middle East conflict seems to drown out everything else it touches. The article needs to resolve how to include Israel while still maintaining focus on the actual Eurovision Song contest 2024, all the while remembering there is a child article specifically on Israel at this year's contest. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 23:40, 21 May 2024 (UTC) How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? There is a need for outside parties who are uninvolved to look at the totality of the discussions taking place related to Israel. There are a lot of Points of view, and a lot of details wanting to be included. There is also a lot of recentism being banded about. This is causing serious bogging down and disputes over what to include and not include. Help is needed sorting this through, with a strong focus on what is an is not encyclopaedic and what is and is not following the Wikipedia pillars. Guidance and reminders of what Wikipedia is not are needed. Help to sort what goes in the main article and what goes in the child article. Summary of dispute by The SatanatorPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I agree with PicturePerfect666, the article shouldn't be about Israel primarily. The Satanator (talk) 03:44, 22 May 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Yoyo360Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
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Eurovision Song Contest 2024 discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Aidi
Closed as declined by the other editors. The filing editor notified the other two editors, but both of them removed the notification of the DRN filing. Removing the notification of a DRN filing is a rude method of declining to participate in moderated discussion. Participation in DRN is voluntary, and an editor may decline to participate for any reason or no reason. Since the other editors are not participating, there will not be moderated discussion, and this thread will be closed. Continue discussion on the article talk page. Do not edit-war. A Request for Comments may be the way to resolve this dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview There is dispute over whether the origin of the breed of dog (Aidi) should be listed as Morocco or North Africa/Maghreb. I initially reverted the article due to a slow edit war over this, it was later reverted back. I have tried to discuss it on the talk page and have provided multiple reliable sources that state the origin of the breed in Morocco. The other party to the dispute has been unwilling to help. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Help to provide consensus on whether the origin should be listed as Morocco or North Africa/Maghreb. Summary of dispute by TraumnovelleM.Bitton changed the origin parameter in the infobox to state 'North Africa' instead of Morocco. This is despite it being listed as originating in Morocco by the FCI and several published sources: [5] [6] [7] Summary of dispute by SkitashPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by M.BittonPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Aidi discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Gangubai Kathiawadi
Closed. This appears to be a conduct report. There has been no discussion on the article talk page. The filing editor has attempted to report edit-warring to the edit-warring noticeboard, but the report was malformed, and has warned the other editor for vandalism (but many disputes, even many conduct disputes, may not be vandalism. If this really is a content dispute, discuss at the article talk page, Talk:Gangubai Kathiawadi. That's what article talk pages are for. If this is an edit-warring report, report it properly at the edit-warring noticeboard. Do not report vandalism unless there is vandalism. Report other conduct issues at WP:ANI after reading the boomerang essay. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:09, 25 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview An account has been repeatedly disrupting constructive edits from users and indulging in edit-war without citing any factual sources on page GangubaiKathiawadi . I have quoted my sources which are considered authentic by Wikipedia but the other user doesn't have any and is contesting purely on basis on personal opinion How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:JabSaiyaan, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gangubai_Kathiawadi&action=history How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Kindly clarify it to the user & other users that before removing any authentic data from a reliable source as per WP:ICTFSOURCES https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gangubai_Kathiawadi&action=history, he/she has to provide sufficient basis to the edits. Editing purely on basis of personal bias is detrimental to the authenticity of information on a global platform like Wikipedia. Summary of dispute by JabSaiyaanPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Gangubai Kathiawadi discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Maratha Confederacy
Closed. The other editors have not replied to the notice, three days after being notified. They are assumed to have declined to participate in moderated discussion, which is voluntary. Continue discussion at Talk:Maratha Confederacy. Do not edit war. Report disruptive editing at WP:ANI after reading the boomerang essay, but do not edit disruptively. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview About territorial peak of an empire and what information to be included in the into para(s) of the article and what not to be included. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Maratha_Confederacy#WP:RAJ_claim_misunderstood_by_Rawn3012 Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection/Increase#Maratha_Confederacy User_talk:Mohammad_Umar_Ali#May_2024 How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Plz see the WP:RS sources and take decision from a neutral point of view. Any article needs to have information of itself not others here in Maratha Confederacy article Mughals are discussed more in 1st para than the Marathas. Not much have been described about Marathas in intro paras even after so much information exist about them. Summary of dispute by PadFoot2008Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Rahio1234Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Comment by Timtrent (uninvolved)Please see the edit warring noticeboard discussion filed since this discussion was opened here. I make no comment on this, nor on that discussion. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 06:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC) Maratha Confederacy discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Killing of Laken Riley
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Closed as pending in another forum. As per advice from a volunteer at this noticeboard, this dispute is being discussed, at length, at the BLP noticeboard. Continue discussion at BLPN. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview This article is about a homicide that occurred in 2024. The suspect has been arrested and charged with murder, but the case has not gone to trial yet. We are discussing whether or not the body of the page should refer to the crime as a "murder" or not. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (violence and deaths) is clear that we should *not* use the word "murder" in the title of the page, because nobody has been *convicted* of murder yet in this case. My view is that because we should not use "murder" in the title, we shouldn't be using it elsewhere on the page either, unless we are talking about the murder charge against the suspect or we are quoting someone. "Murder" is a legal term that is much narrower than "killing" or "homicide", and in my view, I believe the court is the one that gets to make the determination whether or not it's "murder". It's the court's job, not Wikipedians' job. I changed some instances of "murder" in the article to say "killing" or "homicide", but it was reverted by @FMSky. The users who have said they support using the term "murder" are @TanRabbitry and @FMSky. The users who support using other terms (like "killing") are me, @Objective3000, and @Cakelot1. There has also been discussion about the title of the article on the Talk page, but since Wikipedia policy seems very clear about the title, I am not naming editors who provided their opinions on the title ONLY. I'm only naming editors who provided opinions on the use of "murder" in the rest of the article. I would like resolution regarding the language used in the article as a whole. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Killing_of_Laken_Riley#Title_(Edit_to_add:_and_language_in_the_rest_of_the_article_too) How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? A decision on the language to be used in the body of the article ("murder" vs. "killing"/"homicide"), except for instances where we are describing specific charges filed or quotes from sources. Summary of dispute by TanRabbitryPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Here is my view: Wikipedia is not a court of law. We do have to assume innocence until guilt is proved, but we can also use some measure of common sense. Murder is the illegal, unjustifiable killing of another person. I actually don't agree with a previous editor's suggestion that "murder" is synonymous with "killing." Saying "I killed a mosquito," sounds normal. Saying "I murdered a mosquito," will get some strange reactions. Now, the death wasn't a suicide, manslaughter or accident. There is absolutely no hint of justification, such as self-defense. The party who killed her (whether its the suspect or not) committed murder. We don't know if the suspect did it because there's an assumption of innocence until any conviction. So if he's innocent, someone else still murdered her. But even if, for example, he did kill her and argues that he has a legal excuse (such as an insanity defense) the murder still occurred even if that argument is accepted and he isn't personally culpable for the crime. The murder happened regardless of the suspect's involvement or culpability. The death was due to blunt force trauma and asphyxiation, followed by multiple strikes to the head with a rock. There is no reasonable situation that this case could be self-defense. Now a court would at least have to entertain that possibility, but we do not (at least until that is actually claimed by the defense during the trial). Also, while we certainly can't assume that the suspect is guilty, I think we can take the polices' word that he didn't know her to be true (once again until such time as the defense says otherwise) therefore negating a crime of passion. The circumstances of the death also render this idea absurd. I think it is reasonable to assume the murder was a "crime of opportunity" as has been reported (regardless of who committed it), unless this is later contradicted. Unlike other cases mentioned on the "Talk" page, the circumstances and motivation are not controversial, only what the crime signifies and that isn't relevant here. The key point is this: I have wondered under what circumstances the "ignore rules" idea is to be utilized. I think this is one such place. After all, the phrasing suggestions are guidelines, not iron-clad rules. Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 01:56, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by FMSkyPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Objective3000We are not judge and jury. There was no witness to the death. The accused is named making this a WP:BLP. We document what has occurred, not the result of a future trial WP:CRYSTAL. Unlike a newspaper, there is WP:NODEADLINE. The word murder should only be included in quotes until we know it is a murder. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:52, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Cakelot1Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
There's a reason that WP:KILLINGS, which is an explanatory supplement to WP:TITLE, the latter of which is policy, as determined by a RfC archived here. There's also WP:BLPCRIME which exists for this purpose. The idea that we should ignore this guidance because of our WP:COMMONSENSE seems unwise. There have been plenty of other articles which where at "Killing of", until a conviction was rendered, where it seemed equally obvious that it would go one way (I'm thinking of Killing of Brianna Ghey which was moved to "Murder of" when they perpetrators where found guilty; but there's countless other examples of this). I just fail to see why this article is so different from every other article about killings/murders. Cakelot1 ☞️ talk 11:19, 28 May 2024 (UTC) Killing of Laken Riley discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Elissa Slotkin
Closed due to no response from the other editors and as abandoned by the original poster, who has not edited in three days after filing this dispute resolution request. Resume discussion at the article talk page. Any editor may start a new RFC. An editor who does not participate in a contentious discussion that they started is likely to be mistaken for a troll. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:59, 30 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Dispute as to the neutrality of characterizing Slotkin's "support of the strike" with a plain statement or quotes from reliable sources. No consensus from RfC leaves status quo in place, but status quo is seen as an inaccurate/slanted characterization by some participants in discussion. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Elissa Slotkin#Labor Positions and the 2023 UAW strike, Talk:Elissa Slotkin#Request for Comment? How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? A decision on whether the reliable sources characterize the quote, how they characterize the quote, and whether part of the quote should be included in the article. Summary of dispute by OrcaPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by DrmiesPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Oh I'll keep it brief: a few editors have been fighting to keep this trivial NOTNEWS material in here for months. It's a bit of nothing, apparently originally inserted by a sock of User:Thespeedoflightneverchanges. User:andrew.robbins is making this into a--I don't know what, something irritating, and I wonder what wise editors like User:Muboshgu or User:Courcelles think about this. Drmies (talk) 22:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by LegalSmeagolianPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I don't have anything to add outside of there is no consensus for anything, at this point I say just leave it out. Not saying this is good reasoning or that I agree that NOTNEWS applies, just that I don't think it is a big enough deal to keep pushing. Maybe have another RFC in a few months/years once more critical perspectives of her tenure and actions towards labor have been done. LegalSmeagolian (talk) 23:33, 24 May 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by DcpoliticaljunkiePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Important context here is that this article has been the subject of repeated sock and meat puppetry with off-Wiki organizing being publicly admitted to (which resulted in even the talk page being ECP) with Cpotisch reporting that there's a team of editors who "hate Slotkin" attempting to push a POV here. Wrt this specific section of the article: it's been discussed ad nauseam and there's no consensus for the edit being suggested. Not sure how many venues this argument needs to be repeated in. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 22:48, 24 May 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by JayBeeEllPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Elissa Slotkin discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Zeroth question by volunteer (Elissa Slotkin)There has already been an RFC, although the RFC was poorly written, and was closed as No Consensus. Before any further dispute resolution action can be taken, either at this noticeboard, or elsewhere, I have a question, which is: What, if anything, do any of the editors who have filed or responded to this request expect to be accomplished at this noticeboard? I am adding the closer, User:Alpha3031, because they noted in closing that a request for assistance could be made here or at another noticeboard. What, if anything, is anyone suggesting or asking to be done at this noticeboard? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC) This noticeboard usually facilitates moderated discussion. It isn't obvious to me whether moderated discussion is feasible. If some other service is being requested, it needs to be requested. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Do not reply to the statements of other editors. Just answer the question that I have asked. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (Elissa Slotkin)
Alpha3031 (Elissa Slotkin 0)Apologies for the delayed response. andrew.robbins, while it's not ubiquitous, omission of some particular material (especially contentious material) due to lack of consensus for inclusion is not unheard of either, and is supported by the Biographies of living persons policy. I believe the RFC in question is sufficiently malformed and underparticipated that it didn't really count for much in the grand scheme of things, but ultimately the participants were not able to come to a consensus for inclusion. If editors wish to continue to pursue inclusion near the end of discussion here, I believe this noticeboard may be of assistance in drafting a more appropriate RFC question, with clear options and a briefer and more neutral opening statement, though I would encourage any looking to do so to try to assess their prospects of success before embarking on such an attempt. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:48, 26 May 2024 (UTC) First statement by moderator (Elissa Slotkin)The closer of the previous RFC has suggested that discussion at this noticeboard could formulate a better RFC. Please read DRN Rule E. This article and this discussion involve American politics because they involve an American politician. I have two questions for each editor. First, do you want to take part in discussion for the purpose of formulating a better RFC, and are you willing to follow WP:DRN Rule E? Second, do any of you have a proposal for a better RFC? In later discussion, we may discuss and further improve the RFC, but if someone proposes an obviously good wording, I may start the RFC and close the discussion. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Do not reply to the posts of other editors at this time; just reply to the request for a better RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:06, 27 May 2024 (UTC) Statement 1.1 by moderator (Elissa Slotkin)Do either the original poster or any of the other editors here want to take part in discussion for the purpose of formulating a better RFC? If so, the discussion will be in accordance with DRN Rule E. If so, you may propose a wording for a better RFC. If there are no answers, I will conclude that the original poster was wasting the time of the other editors. That isn't a reason to close this discussion, but lack of input is a reason to close a discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:54, 29 May 2024 (UTC) First statements by editors (Elissa Slotkin)
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Primerica
Closed. There has not been extensive discussion on the article's talk page. Please try to continue the discussion there and back your arguments using reliable sources. Also, the filing editor failed to notify the involved editors. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 16:46, 31 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview There is a debate as to whether Primerica should primarily be defined as a multi-level marketing company. (“Primerica is a multi-level marketing company”). This is a relatively recent change. Prior to this edit, the lead sentence described Primerica as a financial services company and second sentence, deleted by Greyfell on February 23, 2024 stated that a 2010 Business Insider article described the company as a multi-level marketer. User:Greyfell said the sentence was a “weasel”. He merged the claim into the first sentence. I have a conflict of interest as an employee of Primerica. I started a discussion on Talk stating that under WP:UNDUE and WP: LEAD the definition of the company in the first sentence of the lead should reflect the majority of the reliable sources (e.g Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, Fox Business, Fortune, Yahoo Finance) and, the body of the article, which has only a short mention of multi-level marketing. I started a Talk page discussion about whether the current or previous version of the lead was better and I asked other editors to weigh in. Before a discussion could take place, User:Chrisahn added a flag saying a “request edit” had been declined and that the discussion was now closed. No other editors were given a chance to participate. Chrisahn closed the discussion while severely attacking the company’s business practices: “There are many reliable sources explaining how Primerica's MLM scheme works, and warning people of Primerica,” and “Unless you're one of the higher-ups and have no conscience…” that I should not participate in the discussion. The self-evident, highly biased attack of the company has made a Talk page discussion literally impossible How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? [[10]] How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I am hoping editors here can facilitate a good faith discussion on the merits, which does not get shut down prematurely again or mired in attacks by people who dislike the company. It also seems likely that the Talk page has caught the attention of undisclosed conflict of interest editors who have posted Request Edits to remove any reference to multi-level-marketing on the page, without providing reliable sources. I hope the discussion can be monitored. Summary of dispute by GrayfellPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by ChrisahnPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Primerica discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Macarons
Closed. This appears to be a dispute between two unregistered editors, one in France, one in Italy, that has come here while the article is semi-protected for one week. During the week of semi-protection, the two editors can register accounts and become autoconfirmed, which will enable them to edit the article (but if they simply resume edit-warring, they will be blocked). The filing editor has not notified the other editor. Moderated discussion between unregistered editors whose IP addresses shift between different ranges would be too confusing to be productive. Register accounts, and discuss on the article talk page while the article is semi-protected. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:43, 8 June 2024 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview I think the source Larousse gastronomy should be cited as it was previously and citing Italy in the infobox. The changes are a bit biased and not justified in my opinion How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Macaron&action=edit§ion=21 How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Seek which version is better based on sources available Summary of dispute by user 77.205.18.165Macarons discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Naseem Hamed
Closed. After minor technical difficulties, an RFC is in progress. The RFC will run for 30 days and then be formally closed. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:53, 8 June 2024 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview There is an impasse on how to describe, in the lead section, this boxer who was born in the UK, has only ever resided in the UK, and has only competed under a British boxing licence. He has Yemeni parents, which may qualify him for citizenship by descent. Various MOS have been invoked: MOS:ETHNICITY, MOS:IDENTITY, WP:NPOV, and WP:WEIGHT. In the boxing world and Western mainstream media, he is primarily notable as a British boxer; in the Arab world, his Yemeni heritage is heavily emphasised. There are numerous reliable Western sources which describe him as solely British, and some Arab sources (of varying reliability) which describe him as Yemeni. Hamed self-describes as "British-Yemeni" or "Yemeni" on social media, and did so during his career by means of Yemeni flags and other symbology. Extensive discussion at the talk page has resulted in a three vs three dispute on how to word the lead section: "British professional boxer", "British-Yemeni professional boxer", or "British professional boxer of Yemeni descent". How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Naseem Hamed#British / British-Yemeni How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Assist us in deciding how to describe Hamed in the opening sentence of the lead section, and whether it needs to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis or per the abovementioned MOS'es. Summary of dispute by ActionHeroesAreRealPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Abo_YemenPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by JFHJrGreetings. I am a WP:BLPN volunteer and have participated in talkpage discussion but never edited this article. Because the subject identifies as Yemeni as supported by at least one reliable reference, I'm comfortable with that self-identification appearing anywhere in the article. I'm also of the position that WP:BLP and related either outweigh WP:MOS concerns or present a defensible position to WP:IAR. I do believe an identity datum as basic as this merits reasonable WP:WEIGHT. I do not agree with disputing its presence in the lede, even if it's worth exactly one mention in the body. Otherwise, I'd comment of the overall dispute that concerns stated and implied on the talkpage regarding chauvinism (countries claiming a champion) are themselves inherently chauvinistic. I'm not from either one. I have no committed preference for how this is resolved other than finding a resolution. Ta. JFHJr (㊟) 01:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by JahalivePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by The_MKFirst of all, contrary to the dispute overview, it was mentioned that only some (which are Arab) sources mentioned “Yemeni” or “British-Yemeni”, this is false, 3 sources (which are [11], [12], [13]) inserted in the discussion has stated “British-Yemeni” or has mentioned him being of Yemeni heritage and are not Arab sources at all, and are in-fact mostly western, with only two sources provided being Arab. For the summary of dispute, I’ve inserted several sources that prove the notability of Naseem’s Yemeni heritage, with him identifying as a Yemeni, and raising the Yemeni flag in a lot of his fights, and other acts of emphasis and symbology of him being Yemeni. All of this makes him being Yemeni/of Yemeni origins notable to his identity, and hence as per WP:ETHNICITY we would have to mention both British and Yemeni, because if not, that would be a violation of WP:NPOV as we are only taking into consideration him being British only, even if being Yemeni is as or more notable to his identity. At first I supported “British-Yemeni” in the lede but for more clarity, we should say “British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage” as we can’t confirm him having only one citizenship as per Yemeni naturalization law, he was always qualified for citizenship by descent (as both his parents are Yemeni), also using “British professional boxer of Yemeni heritage” allows us to include sources for both “British” and “Yemeni”. |MK| 📝 Naseem Hamed discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First statement by volunteer (Naseem Hamed)I am ready to act as the moderator for this dispute. It appears that there is a dispute over what to say the subject's nationality is. Are there any other content issues? Please read DRN Rule A, and indicate whether you are willing to take part in moderated discussion in accordance with the rules. Please state, in one paragraph, what you think should be listed as the subject's nationality, and why that should be listed as his nationality. It appears that we may have to use an RFC. If anyone has any suggestions for compromise in place of an RFC, please provide the suggestion now. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:08, 30 May 2024 (UTC) First statements by editors (Naseem Hamed)
I thought this was settled. He's British. GoodDay (talk) 22:21, 1 June 2024 (UTC) Second statement by volunteer (Naseem Hamed)Is the question only about what to say in the lede sentence? Is there also a question about the body of the article? I am also asking each editor, again, what do you want listed in the lede sentence as his nationality and ethnicity, and why that is how it should be listed. If you have already answered this question, please answer it again. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:39, 1 June 2024 (UTC) Second statements by editors (Naseem Hamed)
I am willing to take part in the discussion following Wikipedia:DRN Rule A. I think his nationality should be described as British. MOS:ETHNICITY explains that when "the person is notable mainly for past events" as Mr. Hamed is, the country "where the person was ... when they became notable" should be in the opening paragraph. He lived, trained and competed mostly in the UK. He has not lived, trained or competed in Yemin. The same section of the MOS also says "Ethnicity, ... should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability." His ethnicity is not relevant to his notability. I don't think there is any dispute about the body of the article.--Jahalive (talk) 22:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Third statement by volunteer (Naseem Hamed)Did you read DRN Rule A in detail? Rule A.9 says: I have prepared a draft RFC in Talk:Naseem Hamed/RFC on Ethnicity. Please review it and comment on it. Do not vote on it yet, because it isn't active. After we agree on it, I will move it to the talk page and activate it by pulling out the deactivating things. Are there any other questions? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Third statements by editors (Naseem Hamed)It looks good. I think those are the three options that have been disputed.--Jahalive (talk) 19:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Fourth statement by volunteer (Naseem Hamed)After some complication, the RFC is now running. If there are no further questions, I will close this thread. Are there any other questions? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:45, 6 June 2024 (UTC) Fourth statements by editors (Naseem Hamed)
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White Zimbabweans
Closed for apparent lack of interest by both parties. We were asked to make an exception to the rule that article talk page discussion is required prior to discussion here. Despite some misgivings, I opened this case for possible moderated discussion, and there were no comments. This was a waste of time by the parties and by the moderator. Discuss at the article talk page. Reliable sources are required for all article content. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:29, 13 June 2024 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview This concerns the population estimates in the infobox of White Zimbabweans, which have been continually updated with figures that are either unsourced or attributed to a series of phone and door-to-door interviews conducted by another contributor as part of an unpublished research project. Specifically the addition of a population estimate of 55,000 white people resident in Zimbabwe. This has been going on since late March, and I have continually disputed these additions for insufficient source information or original research. The subject has been broached on the article talk page as well as on the user talk page of the sole named contributor responsible (the rest are IP edits which have been pretty consistently reverted). This individual states he is a credentialed expert on the subject matter and qualified to speak with authority on the current population figures. He also agreed that he is willing to participate in a mediated dispute resolution process. I understand that extensive discussion is usually required on the talk page of the article, but I have received no response to my concerns as expressed there. There is an topic on the talk page for this issue which was started on May 3, and it has received only two comments - one by myself and another by an unregistered IP. None of the other contributors involved, either those adding the new unsourced figures or those reverting it, have participated in the discussion there. To get the attention of the other contributor, I have had to contact them directly on their personal user talk. Since the other contributor seems happy to participate in the mediation process, and nobody else has engaged with the discussion started on the article talk page, I would like to request that an exception be made to the general rule that "extensive" discussion needs to have taken place on the article talk page first. We have tried that; the talk page discussion has been ignored for over a month while the additions continue. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Clarify whether the added information in question is original research, and appropriate to remain on the article or not. Perhaps clarify the policy on reliable sources vis-a-vis experts with credentials on the subject matter as well. Summary of dispute by JamessumnergoodwinPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
First statement by moderator (White Zimbabweans)This has been a waste of time. I was asked to open a case for moderated discussion without the usual prior discussion, and was unsure about how to respond, but then opened a thread for possible discussion. There have been no comments in three days. The editors should resume or begin discussion on the article talk page. Edits to the article should be based only on reliable sources. If one of the editors is asking for an exception to the policy on reliable sources, perhaps because this is the people's encyclopedia, there will be no exceptions, because the policy of verifiability is non- negotiable. I will be closing this thread unless there are any late comments or questions. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (White Zimbabweans)White Zimbabweans discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Zeroth statement by moderator (White Zimbabweans)I don't know whether I will be opening this case for moderated discussion, because it appears that one of the editors is not making use of the article talk page. However, I am asking for preliminary statements. Please read DRN Rule A and state whether you agree to follow these rules. The purpose of moderated discussion, like the purpose of other editing activities, is to improve the encyclopedia, so I will ask each editor what they want to change in the article, or what they want to leave the same that the other editor wants to change. If there is a question about the reliability of sources, we will ask the reliable source noticeboard for guidance. If there are questions about policies, including about the reliable source policy, please ask them here. Article talk pages exist for discussion of how to improve the article. I am asking each editor why they think that this dispute should be resolved at DRN rather than on the article talk page. If you have not used the article talk page, please explain why you have not used the article talk page. I will open this dispute for moderated discussion if I think that this dispute will benefit from moderated discussion, after trying to understand why there has not been discussion on the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:16, 8 June 2024 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (White Zimbabweans)First statement by moderator (White Zimbabweans)This has been a waste of time. I was asked to open a case for moderated discussion without the usual prior discussion, and was unsure about how to respond, but then opened a thread for possible discussion. There have been no comments in three days. The editors should resume or begin discussion on the article talk page. Edits to the article should be based only on reliable sources. If one of the editors is asking for an exception to the policy on reliable sources, perhaps because this is the people's encyclopedia, there will be no exceptions, because the policy of verifiability is non- negotiable. I will be closing this thread unless there are any late comments or questions. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
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Bernese Mountain Dog
Closed due to lack of response by the other editor. Participation in DRN is voluntary. I recommend that the following steps be taken by the filing editor, preferably in this order:
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview The dispute is over this [14] diff, whether sources meet WP:V, and considering NPOV/DUE how many sources should be listed for life expectancy claims. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Bernese_Mountain_Dog#Reliability, as well as in other talk page discussions. How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Provide consensus on the changes, choose a version to work off, and decide what sources are suitable for inclusion as currently it is one editor against another (third opinion declined this). Summary of dispute by 7&6=thirteenThe issue is in the Summary of dispute by TraumnovelleDue to multiple issues with 7&6=thirteen's edits such as using self-published sources, synthesis, etc. I decided that when I had the time I would sit down, review every health claim in the article, see if the source was reliable for the claim, and if not look for alternate sources. I spent an hour or two doing this. Even ignoring the issues with synthesis and verifiability and focusing on the sources that are RS, they undue: the studies I removed were two decade outdated kennel club surveys with noticeably smaller sample sizes, it is undue to give them the same weight as more modern studies with better sampling methods and larger sample sizes. Things change and studies do become out-dated and irrelevant. Bernese Mountain Dog discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First statement by volunteer moderator (Bernese mountain dog)I am willing to act as the moderator for moderated discussion about this dispute. Please read DRN Rule A. Be civil and concise. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Do each of you agree to follow DRN Rule A? The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the encyclopedia. The first question is that each editor should say exactly what section of the article they want to change, or what section of the article they want to leave alone that another editor wants to change. If there are multiple sections whose content is disputed, please list all of them separately. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:03, 8 June 2024 (UTC) Is there a question about the reliability of sources? If there is a question about the reliability of sources, we will ask for advice from the reliable source noticeboard, and either discuss other issues while waiting for a reply, or put this dispute on hold while waiting for a reply. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:03, 8 June 2024 (UTC) First statements by editors (Bernese mountain dog)I agree to follow rule A. I believe the health section should be changed to what I have in my sandbox. Reliability of sources is one issue but other issues include undue weight to studies that are obsolete due to being older and having smaller sample sizes than more recent ones. Apologies if this isn't concise enough but I do feel I need to specify which sources relate to which problem. Unreliable: Bernese Mountain Dog Club of America, "Individual Breed Results for Purebred Dog Health Survey" (Also OR), 2Puppies, Pullman.com, a-z=animals.com, Canine Weekly, American Kennel Club Undue: The Bernese Mountain Dog Today (1998), Dog cancer: Dog owner's mission seeks to find help for pet and human cancer victims", "Virginia-Maryland Veterinary College launches oncology program for pets", "Mortality of purebred and mixed-breed dogs in Denmark", The Complete Guide to Bernese Mountain Dogs, Bernese Mountain Dog: An Owner's Guide to a Happy Healthy Pet, WebMD Impossible to verify due to being dead: "All-breed eye clinic for dogs to be held at 4H Center in Bridgewater" (unlikely to mention breed based on: [15], "Life in dog years: A look at the longest-lived and shortest-lived breeds", Synthesis/OR: "Genomic Diversity and Runs of Homozygosity in Bernese Mountain Dogs" (Note: WP:MDPI) "Epidemiology, Pathology, and Genetics of Histiocytic Sarcoma in the Bernese Mountain Dog Breed" (Note: Study fails to reach conclusion on heritability and cause of HS) "Statistical analysis regarding the effects of height and weight on life span of the domestic dog" "Lifespan of companion dogs seen in three independent primary care veterinary clinics in the United States" (Unfortunately it does not specify the breed in question so applying it to a specific breed requires original research). Traumnovelle (talk) 03:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
Second statement by volunteer moderator (Bernese mountain dog)I am neutral, and I disagree with the statement that there is an ongoing discussion at the article talk page, and with any idea that it will result in consensus. There have only been two editors involved in the discussion, the two who are parties to this case. I infer that the editor who is waiting for consensus is declining to take part in moderated discussion, and moderated discussion is voluntary. I can see three possible steps that might lead to consensus. I recommend that they be done in this order, although the order is not critical:
Those should be the next steps. I am leaving this case open for any late statements or questions, but will close it soon. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC) Second statements by editors (Bernese mountain dog)
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Talk:Robert (doll)#Suggested_Lead_Edit_v4
Closed. As other editors have stated multiple times, the modifications you were trying to include do not belong to Wikipedia. Let it go and consider contributing to other articles. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 11:13, 21 June 2024 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview I am trying to update Robert (doll)'s page as the current page is not complete, leaving out crucial information regarding Robert. Users @Donald_Albury, @LuckyLouie, @AndyTheGrump, and @NJZombie are preventing any collaboration from taking place to update Robert's page. I have taken to the articles talk page, after attempting to publish changes, to suggest my edits and get constructive feedback from other editors. There are a handful of editors that have taken my changes, and suggested changes, very personal and have blocked me from updating the article in any capacity. Rather than working with me to update the lead (and the rest of the article), these users continue to bring up arbitrary points skirting around the main issue in my suggested improvements. The article remains incomplete and I have hit a standstill at working with the other editors. They are keen to stop any action from me pertaining to Robert, going so far as to report me as a SockPuppet (unsuccessfully), blocking me for edit warring (though I do not think I was taking part in warring as my edits did not exceed 3 published changes within 24 hours), and attacking my character. I've continued my efforts to collaborate with these editors, taking their suggestions and putting them up for review but am continuously met with animosity and hard no's to any of my proposed edits - without helpful suggestions on improving my proposed changes. My most current efforts are focusing solely on the lead as it is extremely bare and does not come close to covering the scope of what Robert is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Robert_(doll)#Suggested_Lead_Edit_v4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gabriellemcnell How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Can you help me understand the exact problem with my latest change proposal? Can you suggest a lead that includes the information I'm concerned about leaving out in a way that appeases these other editors? Summary of dispute by Donald_AlburyPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by LuckyLouiePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by AndyTheGrumpPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Not much of a dispute really. Gabriellemcnell wants to add text to the lede. Nobody else agrees. I don't, since I see the proposed addition as repetitive ('hauntings' after the lede already stated that the doll was 'allegedly haunted') and promotional ('Robert has daily visitors, thousands of which have written letters addressed directly to him'). To which I'd add badly sourced too, having checked the source cited, which is an interview of someone promoting their books on 'hauntings'. As for comments on behaviour, they don't belong here. If Gabriellemcnell wants to bring them up somewhere more appropriate (e.g. WP:ANI, I'd recommend reading WP:BOOMERANG first. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:25, 20 June 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by NJZombiePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Robert (doll)#Suggested_Lead_Edit_v4 discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Australia-China relations
Closed. There was no discussion anywhere. The filing editor notified the IP regarding a discussion at WP:ANI but there seems to be no discussion there. Also, the filing editor failed to notify the IP regarding this DRN case. Please take a look at Wikipedia:Responding to a failure to discuss. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 10:46, 23 June 2024 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview @49.190.36.173 has been encouraged to add material that is supported by reliable sources. However, on four occasions is adding unsupported material and is unresponsive to calls to resolve the matter on the talk page. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? [[16]] How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? A directive from an admin would help, I believe. Summary of dispute by 49.190.36.173Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Australia-China relations discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Tulsa
Closed. This is not a developed article content dispute, and is not appropriate for DRN. However, there are a few issues that I will comment on. The filing editor has not listed or notified the other editor, User:SounderBruce. I am listing the other editor and pinging them, but am not notifying them because I am closing this dispute. If SounderBruce has an objection to VectorMapper's user name, they can report the name issue at UAA. If the two editors disagree about any edits, in particular about VectorMapper's addition of street maps to articles, they should discuss at the appropriate article talk pages, including but not limited to Talk:Tulsa, Oklahoma, or at a WikiProject, such as WikiProject Cities, or at the Teahouse. If discussion there is inconclusive, there are various other steps, but discussion is the first step. If there is disagreement about any edits on Commons, they may discuss on talk pages at Commons, but Do not Yell Vandalism on Commons, or in the English Wikipedia. I have not read the detailed policies of Commons, but the policy on Vandalism appears to be similar to that of the English Wikipedia. This is a content dispute. Discuss on talk pages, including on talk pages on Commons. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:52, 24 June 2024 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Hello. I published vector maps of cities created by me personally, the user SounderBruce https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:SounderBruce deleted them under a fictitious pretext. He wrote me a notice (copy at the end) He didn’t like my nickname. Reason for removal - "Maps added by self-promotional account" However: My username VECTORMAPPER does not represent any brand, company or public organization. Also, this name does not represent any service, product, website, etc. This is my VERY old nickname, due to the fact that I have been working in the field of vector cartography for a very long time (more than 25 years). And of course, many people in many countries know me by this nickname - it simply reflects my profession. I am providing the Wikipedia community with free access to some of my vector maps without any restrictions on use. I really hope that my work on the Wiki will be useful to many people. Also. My vector files provide the ability to edit, embed in any designs of any scale, in any projects that involve subsequent printing, use in media, and others. Maps, which are usually presented in info box on the Wiki Pages, may be visually informative at the “just look” level - but they are completely impossible to use in any way. The city maps that I published provide users with the ability to easily edit maps in any vector editor and use maps in any media and printing projects, including cinema, television, interactive maps for Internet projects, and games. All maps I publish are fully CC-0 licensed and therefore can be used in any way. I am confident that the city maps I provide are necessary and useful to users. Message from SounderBruce:<br? Welcome to Wikipedia. I noticed that your username, "Vectormapper", may not comply with our username policy. Please note that you may not use a username that represents the name of a company, group, organization, product, service, or website. Examples of usernames that are not allowed include "XYZ Company", "MyWidgetsUS How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
I am sure that deleting my materials (city maps) for far-fetched reasons such as “bad username” and “self-promotion” is a type of vandalism. I ask you to take some measures so that I can continue to normally contribute to the development of Wikipedia. Tulsa discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Killing of Laken Riley
Closed as pending at the neutral point of view noticeboard. The instructions for DRN say: We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums. As another editor says, it is under discussion at the Neutral Point of View Noticeboard. Let the discussion at NPOVN continue for a few more days. If the discussion fizzles out inconclusively or is closed as having been inconclusive, discussion can then be started here. In the meantime, you may optionally take part in the discussion at NPOVN. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:00, 26 June 2024 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview The Laken Riley Killing is a politicized, sensationalized murder that's notable because it's being used as propaganda fodder by immigration activists and a former US president. It's one of a set of several sensationalized US murders in which 1. the suspect was an illegal immigrant; 2. activists latched themselves onto it to make broad, disputed claims about illegal immigrants and criminality; and 3. it got sucked into the middle of a political debate about immigration. When Reliable Sources cover these murders, they address how these crimes have been politicized, and they also cite research disputing the propaganda claims. The editor TanRabbitry, who's involved in the Laken Riley article, wants the article to say that the murder occurred during a "historic surge in border crossings," that the murder was "extensively referenced by proponents of stricter border security," who claimed that the murder and "similar violent crimes occurred due to the Biden administration's border policy." He's been highly resistant to including any statement about the fact that academic studies show no positive link between illegal immigration and violent crime (not even a single sentence will he agree to), despite the fact that I produced a dozen+ sources, and to say nothing of the fact that the sources they're currently using in the article also mention this. This issue has been talked out extensively on an NPOV noticeboard (linked in my report) and the article talk, but it's going in circles and getting nowhere. I would also add that the rationale for non-inclusion often involved erroneous interpretations of Wiki rules like "coatrack" (this isn't a tangent - the relevance is established in reliable sources) and "Right Great Wrongs" (again, irrelevant -this is verifiable information in RSes). How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Laken_Riley_Murder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Killing_of_Laken_Riley#NPOV How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I'd like to come to an agreement that the relevance of the disputed information is, in fact, established in reliable sources, and that a sentence or two addressing this aspect is due for inclusion. Summary of dispute by TanRabbitryPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by MasemAs the NPOV discussion is not closed, this seems awfully premature and unnecessary. Masem (t) 23:00, 25 June 2024 (UTC) Killing of Laken Riley discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Arecibo message
Resolved. The editors have agreed to keep the heading intact. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 18:48, 27 June 2024 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview There have been repeated requests from multiple users requesting the removal of a claim in the subtitle of the "crop circle" message. The referenced sources do not support the "hoax" claim sufficiently for it to be present in the subtitle of the section. A minority of editors are reverting any removal of the claim then using the removals as proof to have the article locked. They mock or ignore any users that try to have a discussion, and hide behind "consensus" to wait out anyone that's trying to improve the article. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? As it says at the top of the edit page: "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable through citations to reliable sources." I think the dispute would be resolved with a change to the subtitle or if better sources are added that support the current subtitle. Summary of dispute by ÏvanaMultiple IPs does not necessarily means "multiple users". Not sure why only two editors are being singled out when, like VQuakr mentioned, more are involved and we all agree the current version of the page is the one that should be kept. We are not a "minority of editors", this has been consistently enforced judging by the article's history. Consensus is clear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ïvana (talk • contribs) 03:09, 25 June 2024 (UTC) Summary of dispute by VQuakrPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Multiple editors other than the two listed are involved in this dispute. Talk page consensus appears clear to me, but if the mediator here decides to clean up this case with all participants added and accept it I am willing to participate. VQuakr (talk) 02:13, 25 June 2024 (UTC) Arecibo message discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Zeroth statement by volunteer (Arecibo message)After looking into this case, I am willing to moderate this dispute. I have included 4 other editors who have participated on the talk page but were not listed by the filing editor. Consensus appears to be that reliable sources state that the circles being made by aliens is a hoax. So I'm asking the filing editor: can you provide reliable sources that state that (1) the circles were made by aliens, or (2) that there is reasonable doubt to believe that the circles were created by humans? Kovcszaln6 (talk) 10:12, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
First statement by volunteer (Arecibo message)SETI stated that it is "highly improbable" and listed many arguments. The other sources have made the logical conclusion that this must be a hoax. So – considering Wikipedia's verifiabiltiy policy – can the filing editor provide a source that states that aliens created these circles or there is reasonable doubt to believe that humans created them? Kovcszaln6 (talk) 12:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
First statement by editors (Arecibo message)The Independent is a generally reliable source. We don't need them to discuss in detail the methodology they used to arrive at the conclusion that a specific crop circle was a hoax, in order to use the information in the source. As an encyclopedia we do not perform original analysis in-house, but we are allowed to rely on the published analysis and critical thinking of others. VQuakr (talk) 18:09, 25 June 2024 (UTC) Second statement by volunteer (Arecibo message)On the talk page multiple editors suggested the alternative "Chilbolton crop circle". Does anyone have any objections to that? Kovcszaln6 (talk) 07:21, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Second statement by editors (Arecibo message)"Hoax" remains the preferred option by long-term editors, in spite of attempted hijacking by WP:SPA's. This is a duplicate of my comment on the article Talk page. David J Johnson (talk) 10:30, 26 June 2024 (UTC) I mildly object to the alternative section header phrasing of "Chilbolton crop circle". I would take no issue with "Chilbolton crop circle hoax". The guideline section WP:ONEWAY reminds us to treat fringe theories in context, which in this case means making clear that the mainstream viewpoint is that this crop circle, like all crop circles, was created by humans. VQuakr (talk) 17:07, 26 June 2024 (UTC) Third statement by volunteer (Arecibo message)Editors have stated that they prefer the original text (Arecibo Answer crop circle hoax). So considering that the IP hasn't made a great argument against it and guidelines also recommend it, I think we have consensus to keep the original text. If there are no objections against it within 24 hours, I will close this dispute. Thank you for your participation. Kovcszaln6 (talk) 17:25, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
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shakshuka
Closed as declined by the other editor. The other editor has deleted the notice of the filing of this case request, which is a way of declining to participate in moderated discussion. Whether it is a rude way of declining to participate in moderated discussion is not significant. The next steps are continued discussion at the article talk page. However, I have a few comments. The filing editor states that they want to do a complete rewrite of the article, to replace the existing Class C article with a version that will pass Good Article review. In the discussion on the article talk page, other editors have agreed with the other editor or disagreed with the filing editor on some of the issues, which should be seen as a lack of consensus for extensive changes to the article. In particular, there seems to be a lack of consensus for any change to the etymology. The filing editor used a variant spelling in filing this case, which itself implies that consensus is against them as to the name. If the filing editor still wants to rewrite the article, the least disruptive way to try to do this would be one or more RFCs. There isn't consensus for a rewrite of the article. Discussion on the article talk page can continue as appropriate. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:56, 29 June 2024 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview I think the article needs a full rewrite, since I would like to make it a GA. M.Bitton consistently reverts changes to the article. I attempted a range of improvements on April 18, April 19, May 12, May 21, June 14, and June 25. As you can see, I have tried different approaches each time, but continue to be reverted. This diff shows how little has changed. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? At the very least, maybe we could agree on a to-do list of the article's current problems. A more narrow ambition, perhaps we could resolve the article's coverage of etymology. Pipe dream, a better assessment of how to handle the dish's origin? Summary of dispute by M.BittonPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
shakshuka discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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