Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 119
This is an archive of past discussions about Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current main page. |
Archive 115 | ← | Archive 117 | Archive 118 | Archive 119 | Archive 120 | Archive 121 | → | Archive 125 |
Bob Hewitt
Probably but not necessarily resolved by using pre-1994 flag with comment "pre-1994". Closing as general close rather than resolved because no response from other editor. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:58, 11 July 2015 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview The flag icon used in the person's bio box. A few have agreed that since the person is a South African, the flag should be the current South African flag. However, 1 editor insists that the pre-1994 flag (the apartheid flag) be used, since that was when the person was an active tennis player. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Discussion How do you think we can help? Please state the purpose of flags in the bio box of articles relating to a person. If you agree with Fyunck(click) that the flag represents "active professional tennis era" instead of nationality, the bio box should be worded as such. Summary of dispute by Fyunck(click)Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Every tennis player uses these flag icons in the infobox per MoS "The infobox may contain the national flag icon of an athlete who competes in competitions where national flags are commonly used as representations of sporting nationality in the particular sport." That is to represent sporting nationality. Flags cannot be used to represent citizenship/birthplace/residence, again per MoS. So if there is a flag it MUST represent their participation in international sports. Examples include grand slam winners Ivan Lendl, Jan Kodeš, Martina Navratilova. I do believe their was a dispute in the past on a different player where the decision was since no consensus "no flag at all." This player hasn't been brought to a full RfC so I can't say whether there is consensus one way or the other. But again EVERY player has these flags in this exact location to represent their sports country in international events. These players wouldn't be notable except for playing tennis so this is the general stance at Wikipedia Tennis project. Certainly there are exceptions but I don't see one here. His birthplace is listed and his residence is listed. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:25, 3 July 2015 (UTC) Bob Hewitt discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First statement by volunteer moderatorI am willing to open this case. I have suggested that an RFC be used on whether to use the pre-1994 flag. Does anyone have any comments on that? Does anyone have anything else to say? Please comment on content (which flag to use) and not on contributors. Please be civil and concise. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:29, 6 July 2015 (UTC) First statement by editors
Second statement by volunteer moderatorThe article currently uses the pre-1994 flag with a note (pre-1994). Is that satisfactory to the editors? If so, we can close this dispute as resolved. Alternatively, do we want to use no flag, or to rely on a Request for Comments? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:02, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Second statements by editors
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Talk:Battle of_the_Alamo
Draft page for revision of article created. If agreement is reached on changes to the article, then editors may request User:TomStar81 to unlock the main page and do a history merge. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:02, 19 July 2015 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview I am bringing to dispute resolution a bias by Karanacs against presenting a NPOV regarding the Battle of the Alamo, specifically the actions of General Lopez de Santa Anna in the Investment Section. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have discussed at length with Karanacs, provided ample sources for the inclusion of quote, Karanacs pinged Maile for a 3rd opinion (previously Maile (talk) 19:51, 24 April 2015 (UTC) offered a compromise which I accepted, but Karanacs did not), I have rewritten the section in question and have asked for consensus (with no replies), I received an "add" vote from user SandyGeorgia on 14:28, 6 May 2015 under Talk page history, I've waited about a month. How do you think we can help? By deciding if the evidence I have provided and the opinions of the other 2 editors is sufficient to override the opposition of Karanacs, thus adding the Santa Anna quote and helping to bring a NPOV to the article, at least to this one very small section. Summary of dispute by KaranacsPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by MailePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Battle of_the_Alamo discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First set of statementsI am opening this case for discussion now. Since the discussion has been extensive in different places (the talk page and here), will everyone please summarize briefly what they think the issues are? I see that one editor thinks that the article is not neutral and should give more weight to Mexican and Tejano sources. It appears that other editors disagree. I see that there has been a discussion of whether to mention slavery. The article in question is about the Battle of the Alamo, not the Texan Revolution, so any mention of slavery needs to be justified as appropriate. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:25, 13 July 2015 (UTC) Are there any other issues that need to be discussed here, about the Battle of the Alamo? This discussion is about the battle, not about the war. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:25, 13 July 2015 (UTC) Please be civil and concise. Discuss content, not contributors. Also, do not respond to the posts of other editors. Respond only to the moderator. (Responses to the posts of other editors are likely to go round and round.) Robert McClenon (talk) 14:25, 13 July 2015 (UTC) First statement by MiztuhXThe issue centers on providing NPOV by developing a fuller representation of President General Antonio Lopez de Santa Anna, leader of the Mexican army during the Investment, as has been done with Bowie and Travis, the Texian leaders. Specifically, the addition of a quote from Santa Anna that states: "Giving the Texans one last chance, Santa Ana sent Colonel Juan Nepomuceno Almonte with his offer of allowing the men at the Alamo to walk away free as long as they promised never again to take up arms against the Mexican nation. A refusal of this generous offer would be equivalent to passing their own death sentence. Colonel William Barret Travis replied by opening fire on the Mexican forces and, to quote Santa Anna, in so doing, sealed the fate of those obstinate men." (Santa Anna of Mexico, Fowler, p.166). This quote appears in various forms in other books already included in the bibliography, namely, Lord and Todish, et al, which seem to have been overlooked. If needed, other sources, like García and Pereyra, Scheina, and Fowler, could be added. To the rebuttal that the Santa Anna quote is not encyclopedic because it is a primary document, I would point out the article cites Juan Almonte's journal, Travis' letter to the people, even Dickinson's last words to his wife Susana, which are all primary documents. One must also consider that Bartres and Almontes' wording of Santa Anna's offer of surrender to the Texians is almost verbatim in their own primary sources, which lends to corroboration from a 3rd party because they received their orders from Santa Anna, in addition to the Álvarez confirmation in a 1905 newspaper. I have written this paragraph that includes the above points, as a starting point to achieve NPOV: Santa Anna later stated in his "Manifesto regarding his operations in the Texas Campaign" (1837) that he made his offer through Almonte and by opening fire on the Mexican forces, Travis had essentially sealed the fate of his men. Furthermore, in response "to the proposals to surrender he replied always that every man under preferred to die rather than surrender the fort to the Mexicans."[Note 10: Sources conflict on whether a parole or unconditional surrender were offered during the parley. Lord notes that Almonte made the offer. In an interview with the San Antonio Express in 1905, Juan Álvarez confirmed the offer by Santa Anna. Todish, et al cites Bartre as the source for the quote. Since the quote is pervasive, one must consider that the order was given by Santa Anna who passed it down to his subordinates. Other historians flatly reject this and state only an unconditional surrender was offered. (Todish et al. (1998), pp. 40-41, 49. Lord (1961), p. 104.)] It is my hope to achieve consensus and lift protection of the article, as soon as possible, so as to encourage and validate other editors who may also wish to contribute. First statement by KaranacsI think this is an incredibly premature step.
Bottom line, for me: It is likely that there need to be changes made to this article, although I think for the most part these will be minor (i.e., the article does not need a complete rewrite, just changes to a few specific sections). Maile and I are doing the very slow work of actually reading scholarship so that we can assess scholarly consensus and see where those changes need to be made. If the issue is truly a matter of NPOV, we should be able to take a holistic look - to identify overall what themes are missing or overemphasized rather than argue about this particular word or that particular quote. A piecemeal addition of this fact or that word is not going to achieve NPOV; it's going to leave a patchwork of an article. I have no problem leaving the article protected for the next 6 months to see if, in that time, we can complete the survey of scholarship and re-outline the article on the talk page. I'm not willing, however, to argue over individual lines of text at this point. That is NOT the way to identify POV or achieve NPOV. Karanacs (talk) 16:52, 14 July 2015 (UTC) Second set of statementsThank you for being civil. Please be concise also. Both of the above statements are long. Please explain to me briefly what you want to change in the article or what you want to leave unchanged in the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:20, 14 July 2015 (UTC) I personally think that six months is a very long time to keep the article locked, and would like to facilitate some resolution before then. Can the editors please provide concise summaries of what can be done in less than six months? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:20, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Second statement by KaranacsThe article can be looked at as a whole to determine if there are any overarching themes related to this battle that are missing or that are overemphasized. This is a step that has not been taken. I see no value in arguing about one particular primary source quotation. Karanacs (talk) 18:34, 14 July 2015 (UTC) Second statement by MiztuhXI'm sure we can all agree that the article is not NPOV, nor is it FA, but can we agree to identify and improve those "minor" points, and address those "overarching themes related to this battle that are missing or that are overemphasized"? For me, off the top of my head, the portrayal of Santa Anna, the Tejanos, addressing the Texian slant, and incorporating the viewpoints of Mexican historians (I could translate pertinent Spanish sections into English). Of lesser importance would be the Mexican government and people's response to the situation in Texas, specifically the Alamo; the myths versus the reality of the Alamo; and expanding the Legacy section. What are your pet peeves about the article? But, IMHO, 6 months is a long time to have an article out there that we know is not only biased but not of FA quality (although it purports to be). Do you agree this should be fixed sooner rather than later because it is a huge disservice to the internet community? My proposal is to work on an overhaul of the article (which I presume will take longer), while addressing these "minor" points in order to have a functional version of the article, a template of better things to come. Later, we can merge this working version with the revamped article... Right now, we sand off some of the rough edges. Also, later on down the road, we can reassess the suitability of the Santa Anna quote... Maybe a more accurate portrayal of Santa Anna will no longer require the quote. MiztuhX (talk) 07:44, 15 July 2015 (UTC) Third set of statementsI see that one editor says that we can all agree that the article is not NPOV and is not FA-quality. I don't see agreement to that effect. Please don't state consensus when there is no consensus. Discuss to get consensus instead. In particular, if you think that the article is not NPOV, how is it non-neutral? Neutrality reflects what the published sources say. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:07, 15 July 2015 (UTC) Since six months is a long time to have the article locked down, rather than just discussing on the talk page, I suggest that a draft improved version of the article be developed, at Talk:Battle of the Alamo/Draft. That will initially be a copy-paste, and will then be edited collaboratively. When there is agreement that it is ready for promotion into article space, an administrator can be asked to do a history merge. Is everyone willing to work on a draft improvement of the article? What areas need improving? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:07, 15 July 2015 (UTC) Please don't create your own subsections below this statement, but please don't reply to each other. Just comment at base level. Are we willing to work on a draft to improve the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:07, 15 July 2015 (UTC) I will continue to suggest works by academic historians to address the points that the article needs to develop, as stated above. These are not my personal views; these are the perspectives of historians whose works have not been addressed, even though they form part of the bibliography. I will try to build consensus by working with as diverse a group of editors to improve the article. I understand not all will agree, but consensus can change, based on the quality of my arguments and material. Who knows? These might be the building blocks for tomorrow's consensus...or not. Time will tell, but that will not prevent from working diligently on these articles. MiztuhX (talk) 03:21, 16 July 2015 (UTC) Please make any changes to the draft article, with informative edit summaries, and with discussion on the talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:00, 16 July 2015 (UTC) Does anyone have anything else to discuss at this noticeboard? If not, I will close this thread so that work on improving the article can continue on the draft page. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:37, 17 July 2015 (UTC) I've said my piece. Thank you, Robert, for moderating. MiztuhX (talk) 05:22, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
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Talk:Life extension#presidential campaign of transhumanist candidate
Resolved with clear outcome to not include the proposed text. Steven Zhang (talk) 03:05, 20 July 2015 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved Dispute overview In the politics section of the life extension page, I mentioned that life extension is a focus of the presidential campaign of Zoltan Istvan and his Transhumanist Party. It was removed by Jytdog because he thought that the cited source was self-published. I refuted this on the reliable sources notice board. The only third-party user to comment, Rhoark, also disagreed with Jytdog. I added the content again with an additional cited source, but Jytdog removed that, too. He claimed this time that it was off topic and "coatrack". I asked him why a political campaign focused on life extension would be off topic in a section about the politics of life extension, but he has not given a reason. Instead, he continued to insist that it was. He then attacked me ad hominem and told me that he would ignore the discussion until a bizarre requirement was met: that I "bring a source like NYT". His accusation did, however, prompt a discussion with another user, Ronz, about how much weight the subject should be given, based on its sources. I thus demonstrated how several reliable sources mentioned the campaign and life extension, and I made my argument with multiple quotes from the sources that discuss life extension in depth. Ronz has not since rebutted my argument. Jytdog's accusation also sparked debate about the applicability of Wikipedia's soapbox policy. I have asked how my neutral statement violated this, but Jytdog's and Ronz's replies have only been about Istvan's words, rather than the content of my edit. They seem to conflate my words with Istvan's and ignore that the policy explicitly allows neutral mentions of political advocacy. I added the content again, with wording adjusted to appease advocacy and "coatrack" worries, but Jytdog reverted it, saying there was "no consensus". Have you tried to resolve this previously? Other than what is mentioned above, I have reached out to Jytdog on his Talk page and replied to his messages on my own Talk page. How do you think we can help? I think that a neutral, third-party analysis of Jytdog's reasons for reverting my edits, along with my rebuttals, would help us come to a consensus on whether the content in question should be kept in the article. Summary of dispute by JytdogPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
This matter seems very urgent to Haptic, who doesn't seem to understand that there is WP:NODEADLINE here. While it is great that he/she figured out DR and stopped edit warring, I think we could let the discussion at the Talk page run a bit longer to get other voices. But if Ronz, who is a yet more experienced editor than I, thinks DR is appropriate now, I will consent to going forward. I also want to note that i took a bunch of time out of my day to explain why his edits are SOAPBOXy, here at their Talk page, but the response to that was pure WP:IDHT - even in their post above, they are not understanding the problem. Jytdog (talk) 00:14, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by RonzPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I suggest Haptic-feedback WP:FOC, become more familiar with the relevant policies (especially WP:NOT), and make some alternative proposals. Injecting political trivia into an article like Life extension, using it as a coatrack and soapbox for promotion, is not uncommon across Wikipedia, but only because of the relatively poor enforcement of WP:NOT and the massive problems Wikipedia has in general with advocates trying to bias this encyclopedia to their purposes. The section of the article is what looks to be an inappropriate combination of two topics, both poorly sourced: ethical and political issues, the political bit being the worst of it. Today, it's just a pr campaign. "If something comes of it in the future we should add it as a part of whatever makes it noteworthy" [1]. --Ronz (talk) 15:03, 5 July 2015 (UTC) Talk:Life extension#presidential campaign of transhumanist candidate discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Due to a death in the family I will not be able to continue. I apologize to the parties and DRN volunteers, but I can't continue editing for the time being. Kharkiv07 (T) 03:22, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
First statement by moderatorHello, and welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard. Before we begin, I would like to make a few procedural comments. First, I am here to steer the conversation in the right direction, not to make a decision of any sort. As for your responsibilities as a party to the dispute, I need you to comment on the content, not the contributors and to only comment in your own section. Failure to abide by these rules may lead to the termination of the discussion. I would like to begin by making sure that I fully understand the situation at hand.
From this, I believe all parties can agree on the following statement:
I would like to hear responses to my bullets concerning the scope and depth of the dispute, as this will be our primary working points, and I'd like to hear if all parties agree with the previous statement. Kharkiv07 (T) 01:35, 6 July 2015 (UTC) General question for all parties: Is there an objection to linking to this article, without specifically mentioning Zoltan Istvan? Kharkiv07 (T) 20:15, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
First statement by Haptic-feedbackI agree with that statement. Thanks again, Kharkiv, for taking the time to help us with your spot-on analysis. :) --Haptic-feedback (talk) 02:04, 6 July 2015 (UTC) List of sourcesHaptic-feedback, will you please provide a list of sources that you honestly think aren't solely
First statement by JytdogMost of the summary is OK. The statement by the moderator ("If it can be proved that multiple reliable sources that aren't providing merely interviews and/or puff-pieces provide detailed background on the candidate's standing on the issue of Life extension then it may be included in a neutral fashion in the article.") ignores the issues of SOAP and UNDUE and their interconnection that are the heart of the content dispute. Problems:
First statement by RonzWe've gotten sidetracked from the content problems and how they might be addressed. I hadn't yet brought up WP:NOTNEWS and WP:RECENTISM, other than the implication from my very first comment on the dispute, "If something comes of it in the future we should add it as a part of whatever makes it noteworthy". It appears that the only reason this is getting any press is because of the campaign cycle, and it's an admitted pr tactic rather than anything new or different that deserves coverage in the article. If there is anything new or different in the proposed sources, beyond what is already covered in the article, it has not been identified. So, does a head of an organization that is using the current political campaign cycle to drive up publicity deserve mention in the article? I'd say no per NOT and NPOV. We should also be looking at the section in general. It's unclear if any political issues belong at all. The section already has all the problems that we've brought up, so maybe it's no surprise that there's the temptation to continue in the same vein. To address Kharkiv07 question directly, I think scope and depth is larger. To address whether or not this is an appropriate DR step: I'm hoping it might get up back to following WP:DR and focusing on the content, proposed sources, and article context. However, I'm well aware that when it comes to injecting publicity and politics into articles, even BLP articles, we tend to do a poor job of following NOT and NPOV. I don't think anything short of ArbCom is going to do anything about these problems and this dispute certainly isn't going to ArbCom. NPOVN might be helpful at a later point. --Ronz (talk) 15:34, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
First statement by DoncramI find my way here by checking contributions of editor Haptic-feedback, because they are one arguing elsewhere that a "Transhumanist Party" exists and is wikipedia-notable. My considered understanding is that it does NOT: it is more fringe than joke parties which have actually gotten onto ballots and have won local elections. There is March 2015 documentation of a filing of intent to qualify as a party for the June 2015 California primary election (which just one person perhaps Zoltan Istvan and/or Haptic-feedback can file)... but apparently it did not succeed or there would be coverage. There is no money, no members, no evidence of coverage as a party. SO, what's relevant here in this Life_extension discussion is: what Haptic-feedback wishes to insert starts with the (apparently false) implication that such a party exists and has a candidate. This is nonsense, and part of a multi-article, increasingly "sophisticated" effort by Zoltan and/or a few supporters or employees to create an appearance in Wikipedia that such a party exists. For background, see Talk:Transhumanist politics, Draft talk:Transhumanist Party, and Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Transhumanist_Party. Also I personally was badgered/harassed by one of those persons to the extent that I reported their harassment off-wiki and got some relief. I resent their continued non-Wiki-way single-minded efforts, including this DRN wikilawyering. --doncram 01:40, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
Administrative side noteI've pinged the DRN moderator and made some suggestions for getting this case moving again. With no participation in 5-7 days it may need to be closed soon. I hope the moderator can reignite it. :-) -- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:10, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Hello all, I'm Steve, a volunteer here at DRN. I note the comments by Doncram which indicates the issue has possibly been resolved. Could the others chip in here and let me know if that's the case? Steven Zhang Help resolve disputes! 19:42, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
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Donner Party#Great_Salt_Lake_Desert
Close as the other party has not commented here. Steven Zhang (talk) 03:06, 20 July 2015 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Hi, another editor keeps reverting my edit to the page without saying why. I would appreciate either a) if I am in the wrong, an explanation of what I am doing wrong so that I don't repeat my mistake or b) if I am in the right, for the reversions to stop. I have asked repeatedly for an explanation (in the edit summaries, the article Talk page, the user's Talk page) without success. Our only dialogue does not give me much hope for a sudden burst of volubility either. (I was going to copy it here, but I'll link you to it since my inability to create paragraph breaks in this text box means it makes quite a mess: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Eric_Corbett&action=edit§ion=3) Have you tried to resolve this previously? Besides repeated attempts in different locations to get the user to enter into a productive dialogue with me, not much, since the dispute resolution page indicated that this should be the next step. How do you think we can help? I figure someone with more experience and authority around Wikipedia has a better chance of encouraging the user to work with me, as there are likely policies and procedures involved that I, as a relative newbie, am unfamiliar with. My own attempts are obviously not working. Summary of dispute by Eric CorbettPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Donner Party#Great_Salt_Lake_Desert discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Talk:Electronic harassment#Its_definition
Insufficient acceptance of participation. No editor is required to participate in dispute resolution if they do not care to do so. If the requesting editor cares to pursue this matter further, a request for comments would seem to be, procedurally, his/her only remaining option (I express no opinion, however, on its chances for success). — TransporterMan (TALK) 15:29, 20 July 2015 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview A very know-it-all editor reverts my edits and even threatens to have me blocked from editing if I edit, but s/he very lacks the ability to argument. On the talk page s/he is nothing but rational, explicitly refusing my central point which is that "my suggested improvements do not affect the sense of the article in any way". I even tried elaborating his own opinion only to have him/her reply with "I have said all that needs to be said here - if you lack the ability to comprehend it, that's your problem, not mine". Basically, s/he states that my suggested improvements are to be rejected because they somehow affect the whole article. Well, my edits (3 words) don't affect the rest of the article, so I tried asking to discuss what s/he thinks the problem is but s/he doesn't reason, doesn't establish relations, doesn't use logic. It's true I'm suggesting to change the words used in the very basic definition thus they are relevant, but they don't change the meaning of the article at all. Changing those few words is just a way to describe with more accuracy what the claims of electronic harassment are about. Yet s/he is all into attacking my person neglecting my precisly outlined suggestions. Also, s/he explicitly wants us to think s/he is just someone who dislikes insane conspiracy theories, thus someone who must be right. I did a lot of research on the topic of electronic harassment since well over a year ago because I also am attracted to understanding conspiracy theories, and indeed to debunking them, so I actually feel a little speechless being into a dispute like this. This is the first time I request a resolution to a dispute (I'm very new to editing) thus I really hope I did my best. I never even wanted to have anything to do with disputes because they look so complicated, but after reading about how they work for a few hours I feel more acquainted. Also, the other user involved openly pushed for a resolution outside of the talk page context, so here I am. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I did not try anything else other than discussing on the talk page. I decided to use the noticeboard because reading about disputes I came accross this picture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement-en.svg and since the issue is at the very top of that pyramid I thought it was serious enough to set aside asking a third opinion and the other more relaxed venues. How do you think we can help? If I was you I believe I would carefully read the linked discussion on the talk page and judge if s/he is or isn't behaving correctly. I also believe you are supposed to fully research the matter by consulting for example the resources in order to really understand the topic and be able to give judgments on the content, so when you do I'm confident you will agree with the improvements I suggested (but this is too obvious). That's all! Summary of dispute by AndyTheGrumpParticipation in dispute resolution is voluntary, and I have no intention in participating here in a discussion with a SPA contributor who's entire editing history has consisted of the promotion of a fringe conspiracy theory, and who (after being warned for edit-warring) begins a discussion by bringing up 'invisible and silent "bullets"' and other unsourced nonsense, and then repeatedly accuses me of being 'irrational' when I state that the article must comply with Wikipedia policy. This is not a content dispute - it is a behavioural issue with a contributor who refuses to accept that Wikipedia is not a platform for the promotion of conspiracy theories about 'mind control'. Accepting the proposed changes (which I note that the contributor has not even bothered to provide - a curious approach to dispute resolution) would violate WP:NPOV policy. We are not going to replace 'harassment' with 'torture', because harassment (or rather claimed harassment) is what the sources refer to. And neither are we going to make any other changes based on the combination of WP:OR and sheer fantasy that seems to be behind the other proposed changes. If Clinicallytested wishes to promote such hogwash, it will have to be done elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:15, 20 July 2015 (UTC) Talk:Electronic harassment#Its_definition discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Interstate matches in Australian rules football
Unable to get second user to participate in a reasonably timely manner. valereee (talk) 16:31, 20 July 2015 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview This is a content dispute concerning the article subsection Interstate matches in Australian rules football#Importance. The difficulty is in balancing an encyclopedic description of the historical important/popularity of interstate football – and most specifically, its importance within the state of Victoria. The two editors involved have substantially different interpretations of the history. I have been attempting to describe the fact that interstate football was, in general, less popular in Victoria than it was in other states; and I have been trying to push to quantify its popularity in Victoria by comparing it with crowds at club matches. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Began with a brief edit summary war, then discussion on user talk pages. Early discussion was hindered by a lack of references. See User_talk:Aspirex#Interstate_matches_in_Australian_rules_football, and User_talk:2001:8003:4610:BF01:223:32FF:FE9E:4B9F (SportsEditor518 went under that IP in early discussion). Following Aspirex obtaining references, the issue has been re-discussed on SportsEditor518's user talk page with no further progress. How do you think we can help? A third eye would be helpful to make unbiased judgements on what can and cannot be concluded from the references in question. A communication intermediary would also be helpful, as neither side seems to be able to fully appreciate the other's position. Summary of dispute by SportsEditor518Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Hi. I'd like to start by clarifying my position. The sentence in question, that I wrote is accurate. Which is But Interstate Football was still hugely popular in Victoria, which is sourced, and well supported by other references. Now certainly Interstate Football was not always popular in Victoria, the same as the other states, they had periods of highs and lows. But definitely at times it was very popular. Which I can prove, which is as follows, the 1989 interstate game in Victoria got a big crowd of 91,960, and 10,000 people got turned away at the gate, reference [2]. The 1971 interstate game in Victoria got a big crowd of 66,000, reference [3]. The 1963 interstate game in Victoria got a big crowd of 59,260, reference [4]. The 2008 intestate game in Victoria got a big crowd of 69,000, reference [5]. The 1995 interstate game in Victoria got a big crowd of 64,000, reference [6]. The 1978 interstate game in Victoria got a big crowd of 45,192, that information is on the Wikipedia page (Interstate matches in Australian rules football). The two interstate games in Victoria in 1975 got big crowds of 40,006, that information is on the Wikipedia page 1975 Knockout Carnival. All of those games in Victoria got big crowds, which would mean during those times Interstate Football was very popular in Victoria. Also my reference for line in question, from a former professional Australian rules footballer Ray Walker who lived and played in Victoria, and was involved in Victorian Football for many years, states With the VFL still a few years from morphing into the national competition it is today interstate clashes between Victoria, South Australia & Western Australia were amongst the most anticipated clashes during the first half of the "electrifying" eighties. And to add to that it is common knowledge that Australian Football in Victoria is hugely popular, and has been described as an obsession, reference [7]. That would mean Interstate Football was hugely popular in Victoria at that time, because in a State where the sport is hugely popular, interstate games being amongst the most anticipated in an environment where the sport is hugely popular, means Interstate Football during that period was hugely popular in Victoria. Also another reference that proves my case is Ted Whitten a former professional Australian rules footballer who lived and played in Victoria for many years, and who played Interstate Football for Victoria for many years, and was involved in the Victorian State team for many years, is quoted as saying players would walk on glass to wear the Victorian jumper, that is how desperate players are to play, reference [8]. All of these references prove that at times Interstate Football was very popular in Victoria. Editor Aspirex position that he is trying to prove how popular Interstate Football was in Victoria by comparing it to crowds at club matches is irrelevant. The subject is Interstate Football was popular in Victoria, not how popular it was in comparison to club Football. So therefore that argument is irrelevant. I am still hoping that this can be solved by a compromise. I have recently left a compromise proposition on editor Aspirex's talk page. I have yet to have a response, but I only posted it recently. The proposal is get rid of the line in question, and add (Victoria's popularity in the concept was inconsistent. There were times it was very popular, but though out it's history in the State there were periods of low popularity. The periods of popularity usually coincided with close contests or losses with other states, and after periods of interstate games not being played in the State). I think this would be the best way to describe the content. So in summarising at times Interstate Football was very popular in Victoria. I have several references that prove this. Therefore my statement in question and my proposal are accurate.SportsEditor518 (talk) 08:52, 19 June 2015 (UTC) Interstate matches in Australian rules footballPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First statement by volunteer moderatorI am opening this case for moderated discussion. Thank you, SportsEditor518 and Aspirex for both being open to the dispute resolution process; that alone tells me good things about both of you. :) I see that Aspirex has compiled the information onto SportsEditor518's talk page; I'll read it over. I have an appointment this morning and likely won't be able to respond for several hours. valereee (talk) 10:45, 19 June 2015 (UTC) I've read through the discussion as posted on SportsEditor518's talk page. From what I can see, you've both been sincerely trying to work together, talking about compromise, staying civil even when you thought the other was being unreasonable. Yay, team! For a next step I'd like to check that my understanding of your disagreement is accurate. SportsEditor518, you seem to be saying:
And you've cited sources for this in game crowd statistics from reliable sources for various interstate games/times throughout history in VIC/AU. Plus, you aren't sure you trust the interpretation Aspirex is putting on sources that aren't online where you can assess them for yourself. Aspirex, you seem to be saying:
And if I'm understanding it correctly, you both seem to agree that football in general has been at least as popular in VIC as in the rest of AU, and that the area of disagreement lies in the relative popularity of interstate football. I'll ask you both to comment on whether my understanding of both your areas of disagreement and your areas of agreement is accurate. valereee (talk) 15:21, 19 June 2015 (UTC) First statement by AspirexOn those points:
One thing I do agree to: the comment/reference about Ted Whitten [9] refers to the the importance of interstate football to the players, rather than its importance to fans – all of our discussion to date has been focussed on importance to fans. I think it would be worthwhile to include a separate paragraph in the same section of the article describing importance to players; I think that would be a useful addition and should be easily referencable. Any news article which quotes Graham Cornes will be able to provide an equally valid South Australian perspective on the matter. (Note, however – Whitten was the most vigorous promotor of interstate football in Victoria, and he would tend to exaggerate to generate public interest. But I've seen enough references of players talking about their pride to play for Victoria that I wouldn't dispute his sentiment) Aspirex (talk) 23:47, 19 June 2015 (UTC) Second statement by SportsEditor518First I'll address the moderators requested points.
I'll now address Aspirex's points.
So in summarising all of my references are valid, and therefore my statement and proposal are accurate. I think my proposal should be added to the article because it's the best way to describe the content.SportsEditor518 (talk) 13:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC) 1½th statement by AspirexI should let Valereee speak next, but I feel I need to make two important rebuttals before my next full statement:
2½ statement by SportsEditor518I should let Valereee speak next, but I feel I need to rebut three important things before my next statement.
Second statement by volunteer moderatorSo sorry, somehow the DRN got unwatched, and I was just coming in here to make a note to ping SportsEditor518 for his first statement. My bad. So it looks like I haven't done a very good job summarizing the actual dispute...let's try again. I'd like, if possible, to get this down to the absolute minimum of the actual dispute -- the primary issue, I mean -- to see if we can work on that.
So let me try again to get at the very heart of the dispute and state it as simply as possible. Is it true that the main issue here is that the two of you disagree on whether interstate football was very popular in VIC, and that you both believe you've got references that prove your own side of the argument? valereee (talk) 13:03, 22 June 2015 (UTC) 3rd statement by SportsEditor518Spot on Valereee, yes that is the dispute. And editor Aspirex seems to be debating that Interstate Football was more popular in Western Australia, South Australia and Tasmania, which I don't dispute.SportsEditor518 (talk) 14:28, 22 June 2015 (UTC) Second statement by AspirexYes, that's right. But to be honest, I'm now struggling even more to fully understand SportsEditor518's position. He says in his third statement that he agrees with me that interstate football was less popular in Victoria than elsewhere; but he's rejected every attempt I've made to include that information in the article and described almost every reference and argument I've used to push that case as irrelevant. So I'm confused about exactly what problems SportsEditor581 has with my proposed text. Aspirex (talk) 07:07, 23 June 2015 (UTC) Discussion re: whether interstate football was very popular/hugely popular in VICOkay, so we've go agreement that this is the crux of the dispute -- great! Let's stay within this section (rather than starting each statement with a new section -- just indent responses to each previous response by one additional colon at the start of your response as is normal on a talk page and when you're starting a new line of thought, leave out the indents.) Let's focus on just this one statement. SportsEditor518, Aspirex is saying that the two of you are in agreement that interstate football was less popular in VIC than it was in the rest of WA, SA, TAS. Is it your argument that while it was less popular in VIC than in the rest of AU, it was still 'very popular'? Let's try to keep to just this one point. valereee (talk) 11:11, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
That sounds like a sensible way to phrase it – I've been struggling with coming up with a way to phrase it that doesn't sound contradictory. I'd want somthing a little more credible than a reference that just uses the words "very popular" though – in my mind it would have to be an article that was talking about its popularity as the main point of the article, rather than one of those 'top ten' type articles which included "very popular" as a throwaway line. Aspirex (talk) 12:11, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Short break I'm headed out of town overnight, may or may not have internet access. I'll be back either Saturday night or Sunday morning. valereee (talk) 17:31, 26 June 2015 (UTC) Back now! Hm, doesn't look like SportsEditor518 has edited since the 24th, so we'll give him a little longer in case he's in a busy stretch of real life. valereee (talk) 15:40, 28 June 2015 (UTC) Okay, I see SportsEditor518 edited yesterday, so pinging him here. valereee (talk) 11:15, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Reopening DiscussionPlease remember to indent as appropriate and sign your posts with four tildes so we can all easily follow who is saying what. valereee (talk) 12:20, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
It's Saturday in Australia, I've been out all day, and I'm going out tonight, I'll respond tomorrow.SportsEditor518 (talk) 12:50, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
The above points by Aspirex will be what we're dealing with in the current discussion. valereee (talk) 16:15, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
Pinging SportsEditor518 and his IP as well 2001:8003:4610:BF01:223:32FF:FE9E:4B9F valereee (talk) 11:08, 14 July 2015 (UTC) 48 hour closing notice
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Talk:Lucha Underground
No response by the editor who opposes the posting of spoilers, so closing as a general close. (Not really resolved because there is known to be one editor who opposes spoilers.) There appears to be consensus that spoilers should be used within reason, not indiscriminately. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:57, 21 July 2015 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview Lucha Underground is a professional wrestling television series. Matches are typically filmed 3-4 months in advance, with considerable additional production beyond these matches, to the point of approaching a drama series. As it is a highly produced fictional series, rather than simply a tape delay of a live event, nothing is set in stone until it actually airs. In the 8 or so months the show has aired, little has changed from filming, but this does not preclude the possibility of changes being made in post-production, to account for real-life events occurring between filming and airing, on the whims of the producers, etc.
Have you tried to resolve this previously? Discussing it on the talk page with MPJ-DK. Observing C.Fred's prior involvement. How do you think we can help? Make a clear cut distinction whether or not this is a fictional television series, and thereby whether or not it is improper to post speculation of events that will air based on what was filmed months prior. Summary of dispute by MPJ-DKI just want point out that I do not appreciate being called a "bully", when all I have done is debate my views on how I believe it is/should be. I guess I bully by not being in agreement? Nothing personal on my part at all. Also, 1 day after you post in the debate it ends up here already? I mean unless you were one of the IPs involved in the earlier debate? Also I have taken very few actions beyond posting on the talk page. So at the heart of this argument is very fun, highly entertaining Lucha Underground wrestling show and discussions around what is and is not against the rules/best practices of wikipedia or whatever something like WP:CRYSTAL is. The argument has been either for or against posting wrestling results until they have been shown on television, in a nutshell that is the "contentious" material here; the result of matches and the dates they were taped, so the dates they actually happened in real life. I have no problems agreeing that there is post-production going on from the producers' side and I agree that some times what was taped in the ring is presented with additional or different information than when it was taped, be it via segments in between matches or some matches being shown in a different order than they were taped. Yep that happens but does that change the fact that on "May X" they taped a match where Luchador A pinned Luchador B and was announced as the "Universal Internet Champion of the Worlds"? It still happened, it's a fact - If they later present it differently on TV then that's a fact too. A truly encyclopedic article on the event should state both facts, that during post-production they added a segment that made it look different than when taped, or that they never aired the title match and ignored it on TV. Those are facts, all of them. And they are all facts that are only added after they become facts (happened or shown on TV). The argument was made that this is a case of "Crystalball", but my counter point was that it cannot be predicting the future if it's only covering what has already happened. Articles are not stating "this WILL be shown on August X in such and such way", only that it happened during a TV taping. I believe WP:SPOILER would be the appropriate thing to call attention to here? I would also like to call out the fact that these are articles about wrestling and thus the general conventions on wrestling is what we're being asked to ignore here. There are numerous examples of shows, title changes etc. being taped in advance and shown at a later date, heck there are instances where they taped a title change WHILE someone else actually was the official champion - leading to a "-4 day" title reign because that's the FACTS. We put down when it happened and when it was broadcast if those are two different dates. The argument that Lucha Underground is a highly produced TV show and thus is "not wrestling" to me seems like a misguided argument - I got three acronyms for you WWE, WCW and NJPW - All were/are known for highly produced, scripted, "fictional" wrestling shows and not always live either. To me the main difference is the tape-to-air time here, but that seems like an arbitrary distinction between "it's JUST a TV show" instead of "it's a wrestling and a tv show". We are talking about information that is in no way PERSONAL, no more than Han Solo's actions during a movie is a reflection of Harrison Ford, it's match results, dates taped etc. it does not really fall in the category of information that should be removed on sight for BLP. Needs citation? Don't agree with a source being reliable? tag it and let's deal with the specifics instead of a blanket "don't put anything on until they've aired" because you don't want "spoilers" in the articles. So here we are - "Contend Dispute", which is true there is a dispute and a disagreement opinions on the subject, but the "solution" is pointless, I am not aware of any "speculations of events" MPJ -Fiesta Triplemania 21:10, 14 July 2015 (UTC) Summary of dispute by C.FredPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:Lucha Underground discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Volunteer's note: Notice has been given and discussion is adequate. I'm neither "taking" nor opening this case for discussion at this time. Awaiting summaries from the responding parties. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:49, 14 July 2015 (UTC) DiscussionI am opening this case for discussion. I don't claim to know anything about the subject matter. The above comments are long, and I would appreciate concise summaries. Please comment on content, not on contributors. Is the professional wrestling that the article is about staged? (In the United States, professional wrestling is staged, and so is considered entertainment rather than a sport. In fact, declaring it to be entertainment is necessary because otherwise it would violate US laws against sport fixing.) Does the dispute involve statements about matches that have already been taped but not yet broadcast? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:56, 18 July 2015 (UTC) Each editor is requested to make a brief (concise and civil) statement at the main level. You may for now reply to each other, but if there is unnnecessary back-and-forth, comments may be boxed, so please do not reply in a back-and-forth fashion. Is there anything else besides making statements about the show after it was taped and before it is broadcast that needs to be discussed? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:56, 18 July 2015 (UTC) Statement by MPJ I hope this is the main level? If not let me know. So yes pro wrestling is scripted, also known as "sports entertainment", not quite a soap opera and not quite a competitive sport. The complain centers around posting results of matches that have been taped, but not yet aired. Which is not uncommon for pro wrestling articles if we have reliable sources for the results. JasonOT claims that by posting what has happening we're speculating on how it will be shown on TV, none of the LU articles do that at all. For matches that have not aired at most articles state "scheduled to air on XX" because LU specifically promoted the dates. There is nothing speculative about stating what happened in the matches. I have not heard any other disputes than the articles mentioning match results before they're shown on TV. MPJ -Fiesta Triplemania 18:42, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
So a quick bit of research to identify anything that refers to future events and not something that has already happened, with only 3 episodes left is very little, and here is what I found. I know I am an interested party in and could be "biased" but I just want this resolved as fast as possible. MPJ -Fiesta Triplemania 19:08, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
Statement by starship.paint I'm uninvolved in this case. I'm a member of Wikipedia:WikiProject Professional wrestling. The thing about posting spoilers - it's absolutely permissible - if verified by a reliable source determined by the project. But is posting spoilers needed? I would say yes to the following scenario: when a wrestler wins a championship. Thing is, many wrestling companies tape their shows instead of having them air live. Many wrestlers win a championship on a certain date, but the TV episode airs days, weeks, or months later. We're Wikipedia - we report facts. A wrestler holds a championship from the day of the taping, not from the day of the episode airing. This is because the same TV episode may air on different days - Lucha Underground airs on Wednesday for El Rey, and I think Saturday for UniMas. See List of World Heavyweight Champions (WWE) - reign number 42, Christian and reign number 43, Orton, for an example. The information must be notable when posting spoilers. Title changes fulfill that notability. Another possibility is the announcement of matches for a major event. But that will probably not apply here. P.S. I must admit that I have kept away from reading through the articles - because I don't wish to be spoiled either. So please don't spoil anything. LOL! starship.paint ~ KO 13:00, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
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Kenny Dalglish
Sorry, but there's no room for disagreement on this one. Per the Verifiability policy, "All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material." Since this material has been challenged, it cannot be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source. The fact that other similar material on Wikipedia has no source is no reason to add additional unsourced material, nor is the fact that sources may be difficult to find. Wikipedia does not require online sources, so sources from paper books or magazines may be able to be used, so long as they are reliable. I would remind Qed237 that V says: "When tagging or removing material for lacking an inline citation, please state your concern that there may not be a published reliable source for the content, and therefore it may not be verifiable. <ref> When tagging or removing such material, please keep in mind that such edits can be easily misunderstood. Some editors object to others making chronic, frequent, and large-scale deletions of unsourced information, especially if unaccompanied by other efforts to improve the material. Do not concentrate only on material of a particular POV, as that may result in accusations that you are in violation of WP:NPOV. Also check to see whether the material is sourced to a citation elsewhere on the page. For all of these reasons, it is advisable to communicate clearly that you have a considered reason to believe that the material in question cannot be verified.</ref>" and that BLP only requires the removal of unsourced "contentious" information. If you contend that these awards were never given, or are somehow otherwise incorrect, then that contention justifies immediate removal under BLP. — TransporterMan (TALK) 20:47, 21 July 2015 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview I have added edits to Kenny Dalglish to add in his individual achievements under Honours. If you look at football awards list 95% of them on wikipedia are not sourced externally (But are internally sourced). As many of these awards are from the 70's/80's it is hard to find an external source as the internet did not exist. I have given Qed237 many reasons and talked extensively on his talkpage but he removed my edits despite me saying that good articles like Alex Ferguson, Bill Shankly, even excellent rated articles like Lionel Messi, the awards under Honours are not completely externally sourced. Qed237 has removed my edits and I believe that is incorrect. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have said I will return the edits and in the coming days I will add any reference sources that I do find, however many may prove difficult. How do you think we can help? You can let my edits to Kenny Dalglish stand (Compare to any all other football articles) and for sources I do find, I will add them. Also I am being given a warning by Qed237 which is unfair as I believe I am right and it is wrong of him to just remove my edits without first talking to me on my talkpage and saying that it would be better for the article to research and get as many external sources as possible. Summary of dispute by Qed237Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Kenny Dalglish discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Dictatorship of the proletariat
A Request for Comments is being used to decide which of two versions to use. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:08, 26 July 2015 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview The article describes the marxist term of dictatorship of the proletariat in comprehensive way, starting from its introduction by Marx and Engels, what they intended it to be, then how other marxists interpreted it and what happened to it in practice. An IP user (or group of) introduced very significant changes to the article, essentially reducing it to a very limited interpretation of what Marx might have meant originally, removing large parts of the article on the basis that they are not part of this particular interpreation. These changes have been continously reverted by several editors over the period of last year, but the IP users kept restoring them until we asked for full article protection. The article was however protected in the IP-introduced version, which is currently simply confusing (with claims like "dictatorship is democratic", which contradicts any mainstream definition of democracy). There is also some own research and questionable sources used. The IP users happily take on an ideological discussion on the talk page, but they have not picked up any of the proposed changes, which doesn't really bring us closer to any consensus and lifting the protection. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Asked admin for article protection, started sockpuppetry investigation. How do you think we can help? Help agree on the consensus on how the article should look like and whether the questionable statements should remain in the protected version. Summary of dispute by GeneralizationsAreBadPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
This is basically an edit war over content. I didn't come over to the page until July 14, when I saw a very large change made to the page. As it involved what was (in my opinion) an unwarranted deletion of content and some questionable wording ("inherently democratic"), I reverted it. In hindsight, this was a mistake on my part. 189.68.223.213 reverted me, saying, "Discuss any radical changes in the talk page." The IP was attempting to include major bold edits in the article, and Kravietz was trying to remove them. The page soon received page protection, and looking back, I could see that there has been an extensive edit war over this wording involving these users and others. There were clearly some major 3RR and BRD issues going on, and I wrote my opinion on the disputed edit. The talk page became an unhelpful forum, and I essentially gave up. Then, I saw the announcement of a (currently-stalled) SPI and this DRN post, so I came here. That basically sums it up. GAB (talk) 14:56, 22 July 2015 (UTC) Summary of dispute by My very best wishesThis is a typical behavior problem that comes from only one participant: an IP who does nothing but edit war and arguments on this page (see this history). As clear from edit history of the page [29] he edit war alone against several long-term contributors. This page should be simply semi-protected, nothing else. No one should waste their time here. Given no disagreements between other currently active participants, I would expect this page be fixed very quickly when protection expires. As a note of order, I did not edit this page so far, but only made a few comments on this article talk page.My very best wishes (talk) 19:03, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by ZozsThe dictatorship of the proletariat (DOTP) is a Marxist concept which belongs to theory. Therefore the lead has to explain the conception of the DOTP theoretically. In theory it is a "It is a democratic state where the whole of the public authority is elected and recallable under the basis of universal suffrage"; this is true according to reliable sources which examined Marx and Engels' viewpoints in the matter -- sources which are cited and which have been tried to eliminated by other editors through tagteaming and edit warring. For example, Kravietz gave up debating me on the issue and then started edit warring to get his version through. Later others joined. I was the only one who had debated the issue (on Kravietz's talk page) -- everyone else simply reverted. That exposes the illegitimate behaviour of the other editors here. The sections "Banning of opposition parties and factions", "Stalinism and 'dictatorship'" and "Post-Stalin" should be removed as-is. They are only a copy-paste of Russian history; in none of the sentences contained in these sections it is explained how these actions were related to the DOTP. Nor do any of the sources say that such actions were done because of the concept of DOTP. Therefore it is only an original research attempt to stain the name of DOTP. They should either be removed or information should be added on how such actions are considered a follow-up of DOTP idea by historians. In any case the lead must explain what the concept "DOTP" means in Marxist theory -- which others here have tried to purge, for ideological reasons (anyone who knows the Wikipedia history of these illegitimate editors knows their political bias and their tagteaming/editwarring in all articles), despite the fact that reliable sources state the contrary. Zozs (talk) 14:55, 24 July 2015 (UTC) Summary of dispute by BobraynerMy Very Best Wishes is right. This is simply the result of tendentious editing by one anonymous editor (before that, by Zozs, who stopped their editwarring just before the IP started). I note that Zozs' previous account editwarred on related articles. The WP:WRONGVERSION has now been protected. We should return to the previous version, which is not only based on sources, but also supported by the existing consensus among editors. DR is not a last chance for POV-pushers who hammered the revert button and found that everybody else disagreed with them. bobrayner (talk) 00:11, 23 July 2015 (UTC) Talk:Dictatorship of_the_proletariat#Proposed_content_changes discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Volunteer's Note: Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I'm neither taking this case nor opening it for discussion at this time, but just reminding the filing editor that it is his obligation to notify the other participants of this filing by leaving a note on their user talk pages. The template mentioned at the top of this page can be used for that purpose or a custom-written note. If those notices are not given in the next two or three days — and placing a notice on the article talk page will not suffice — this listing will be closed as abandoned. Also, please note that everyone substantially involved in the discussion, including IP editors, must be included in the party list, above, and notified. Unless proven at SPI (and it appears that the recent case filed there has already been closed), please do not list nonparties who you believe to be sockmasters of IP editors, list only the IP editors. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 13:37, 22 July 2015 (UTC) (DRN volunteer)
Volunteer note - In looking over the history of this article and the number of registered and unregistered editors and the scope of the challenged edits, this may take longer than the usual one to two weeks for cases at this noticeboard, so that this may be a candidate for formal mediation by a member of the Mediation Committee. I am neither accepting nor declining this case here. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:46, 22 July 2015 (UTC) First stage of discussionI am accepting this issue for moderated discussion. What it appears that Zozs is saying is that Dictatorship of the Proletariat had an entirely different meaning for Marx than was ever implemented under Lenin or his successors, and that Dictatorship of the Proletariat was not intended by Marx to be a dictatorship in the modern sense, but a form of democracy. It appears then that the issue is whether the article should describe Marx's concept, or its implementation by Lenin, or both. Is that the real issue? If so, the real question would appear to be how clearly Zozs's interpretation is verifiable from the writings of Marx. Is that the real issue? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:05, 24 July 2015 (UTC) Please be civil and concise. I don't want long statements. Please comment on content, not on contributors. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:05, 24 July 2015 (UTC) This discussion will run for no more than ten days. If it isn't resolved in ten days but is still making progress, I will request that formal mediation begin. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:05, 24 July 2015 (UTC) Please do not respond to other editors, only to the moderator. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:05, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
I have a question for editors who disagree with Zozs's concept of Dictatorship of the Proletariat. Do you disagree with the above statement that the original concept was democratic in nature and was not a dictatorship in the modern sense? If so, do you disagree because you think that the scholarly sources are being incorrectly quoted, or why do you disagree? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:37, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
Also, Marx insisted that communism can only work in a developed industrial country, but at the same time in a letter to Vera Zasulich admitted that it might also work in Russia, in spite of it being undeveloped and largely rural. What I'm trying to say that in Marxism, there is no "ultimate" interpretation of Marxism, simply because Marx and Engels had no ultimately defined and clear idea on how it should work. Analysis of Marxist sources is pretty much like analysing Bible and you can find many citations to support almost any number of interpretations, even pretty contradictory - there are indefinite ways of determining the "original" meanings by just re-reading the texts selectively, because there is no Marx alive to tell them right or wrong. This is precisely what various Marxian sects, like Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, Stalinists and Trotskyites, happily did over the 20th century, each of them providing a fair amount of citations to support their claims. Any interpretation that claims to have found "the Marx's original conception" unescapably has to take the point of view of one of these interpretations, and just claim this is the "original" one. But it's not. Kravietz (talk) 17:53, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
I have a question for Zozs and any editors who agree. Did Lenin, or the Soviet Communist Party, justify the banning of opposing parties based on dictatorship of the proletariat (whether or not a correct presentation of Marx's view)? If the banning of opposition parties was Lenin's concept of the dictatorship of the proletariat, then shouldn't both viewpoints be presented? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:37, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
The dictatorship of the proletariat has long been understood in the West to be a Communist dictatorship. Even if this was never what Marx intended, then shouldn't that use of the term be included in the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:37, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
The statement: "The dictatorship of the proletariat is inherently democratic" is, in modern terms, a contradiction. Is that because "dictatorship" is being used in a non-standard way (e.g., a reference to dictatorship in ancient Rome is non-standard) or because "democratic" is being used in a non-standard way (e.g., as the use of non-democratic means to implement future democracy)? If that inconsistency is not clearly addressed, that statement will merely confuse readers. Will both groups of editors please respond?
Second stage of discussionI am not closing the first stage of discussion. It may continue. It seems to me that there have been multiple concepts of dictatorship of the proletariat, and they all should be described. Does anyone disagree, and think that there is only one valid concept? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:23, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
Is it only the lede of the article that is disputed, or are there other sections of the article that are also disputed? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:23, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
I recommend everyone here to read Hal Draper's Marx and the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, which is possibly one of the most complete expositions about what Marx really meant by the original terms. It does not concern interpretations at all - it merely objectively assess what Marx himself meant in his original thought. For even more information check Draper's The ‘Dictatorship of the Proletariat’ in Marx and Engels. Zozs (talk) 18:42, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
By the way, we just had one reader who was suprised by the current version of the article to leave a comment: "I came here by accident at present the lead (...) is pure doublespeak"[32]. Kravietz (talk) 14:06, 25 July 2015 (UTC) DraftsWould each editor please provide a draft of what they think should be in lede section and in the Lenin section? Either prepare it here with its own fourth-level heading, or prepare it in your user space or sandbox. We can then see whether there is any room for compromise. If there is room for compromise, we will see whether we are likely to finish within ten days, or whether we need formal mediation. If it becomes clear that there is an impasse, we may use a Request for Comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:00, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
TerminologyAs noted above, another editor states that a sentence in the lede is doublespeak, and I agree completely that it is. It is using terminology in a very non-standard way, by saying that dictatorship is democratic. I have already asked the editor who introduced that language to explain whether "dictatorship" is being used in a non-standard fashion in the phrase "dictatorship of the proletariat", in which case that usage should be explained, or whether "democratic" is being used in a non-standard fashion, in which case, since that is in the voice of Wikipedia, it must be changed. User:Zozs is merely restating his own opinion and is not yet engaging with the other editors or the moderator, and is called on to explain, within 24 hours, which word is being used in a non-standard way. If the apparently contradictory language in the proposed and current version is not explained in a way that uses English as it is normally used, I will have to fail this discussion and request User:KrakatoaKatie to unprotect the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:20, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
ImpasseThere appears to be an impasse, with no room for compromise between the view of Zozs that "dictatorship of the proletariat" refers to a democratic organization, because the word "dictatorship" is being used in a non-standard way, and other editors, that it has been used to refer to a Leninist dictatorship. Does anyone want to propose a compromise? If not, a Request for Comments is the most likely way forward. Does anyone have any comments in preparation for the Request for Comments? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:58, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
This must be removed "The dictatorship of the proletariat is inherently democratic, and cannot take the form of single-party rule.[5] Research into the origin of the term has shown that it was never intended to mean a dictatorship — as the term is currently understood — in any way, and that it was always conceived of as a democratic society.[6][7] The view of modern Marxists critical of the Soviet Union-style states is that they did not form in any way a practical application of the dictatorship of the proletariat, but rather were not dictatorships of the proletariat at all." ... This is biased to the extreme. Capitalism is not in theory supposed to subjugated and controlled by a state-dominated economy, but the Chinese seems to be doing it very well.... --TIAYN (talk) 10:27, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
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