Talk:Electronic harassment

Semi-protected edit request on 28 August 2023

Electronic harassment is considered a delusion by many medical professionals, however there are patents at the U.S. Patent Office owned by the U.S. Air Force and U.S. Intelligence Community proving that the technology to electronically harass people does exist. There are also historical events, such as the Moscow Signal incident, suggesting that electronic harassment may have been used by the United States and Soviet Union, against each other, during the Cold War. Bobduder (talk) 00:27, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

These patents are not evidence that the government is secretly microwaving the brains of random citizens. We will not interpret primary sources (such as patents) to undercut reliable secondary sources, or to prop up delusions or conspiracy theories, that goes against just about every content policy we have. - MrOllie (talk) 00:32, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done. The request must be of the form "please change X to Y", and must be supported by references to reliable sources. Cullen328 (talk) 00:34, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

The U.S. patent office isn't a reliable source? One of them is a patent owned by the U.S. Air Force. Bobduder (talk) 00:41, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

The U.S. patent office contains patents for many devices which do not exist (and indeed are impossible) such as perpetual motion machines [1]. MrOllie (talk) 00:45, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I didn't say that it proves that the government is secretly microwaving people's brains, I said there is proof that the technologies to do it to people exist and that there are historical events, like the moscow signal, or havanna syndrome suggesting that it is possible. By the way, the U.S. Academy of Sciences stated that microwave weapons could be behind havanna syndrome.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/02/politics/havana-syndrome-report/index.html Bobduder (talk) 00:39, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Then this request is at best irrelevant, because /this/ article is about symptoms of delusion, not real events. MrOllie (talk) 00:43, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I cited two real events and technologies suggesting that it could be a real thing. The wikipedia article states at the very beginning that it's a "conspiracy theory" and says that "medical professionals consider it a delusion". Why can't we include information supporting the conspiracy theory? Bobduder (talk) 00:45, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

For the same reason Globe doesn't suggest the earth might be flat. MrOllie (talk) 00:48, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

There is no evidence that the earth is flat. There is evidence for V2K RNM DEW abuse worldwide. 2603:9001:2E02:EBC0:A888:226E:F873:4C61 (talk) 02:08, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

When you get the NY times to write about it, so will we. Should be a big news story. Wikipedia will continue to follow the mainstream on this, as this encyclopedia is designed to do. MrOllie (talk) 02:12, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

The mainstream has reported several times on DEW abuse. Here's one from NBC with proof it is not psychosomatic, and that according to the National Academy of Sciences Havana Syndrome was most likely a "pulsed microwave energy attack". Adding evidence that this isn't psychosomatic only adds to the breadth of the article.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-tmFJDpLuMI&pp=ygUWVjJrIHJubSBuZXcgeW9yayB0aW1lcw%3D%3D 2603:9001:2E02:EBC0:FA2B:59BA:D307:4CA (talk) 04:58, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

just to note [not the New York Times, but ..]: The Washington Post, in a Sunday Magazine cover story article on January 14, 2007, wrote about victims. That article, “Mind Games”, by journalist Sharon Weinberger, appears at [text only]:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/10/AR2007011001399_pf.html  ;

[ The article's 'subtitle text' was: "New on the Internet: a community of people who believe the government is beaming voices into their minds. They may be crazy, but the Pentagon has pursued a weapon that can do just that." ] HRtsFan (talk) 13:00, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

IT IS however evidence that such a capability does in fact exist, and widely available. When qoutable and presuppositional turned away in attempt of censorship by distraction and diversion. Any person of sound logic will know this, and attribute the Nuremburg code to the usage of such devices. 50.220.95.38 (talk) 18:41, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

No, it is not evidence of these things. Patents are primary documents; they are not evidence of function, existence, availability, or connection to the subject of this article. VQuakr (talk) 22:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

It's not delusion by all, Darpa has their patent up from 2010 about literally this semantisized under the guise of "medical research". Here's the link:

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/9d/a6/9b/656bdb717c2a4c/US20140094674A1.pdf 50.220.95.38 (talk) 18:34, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Not to mention that electronic harrassment isn't limited to conspiracy theories and that ganstalkers often use forms of electronic harassment. 2603:9001:2E02:EBC0:FA2B:59BA:D307:4CA (talk) 10:50, 26 September 2023 (UT

Besides WP:FRINGE, the problem is WP:SYNTH. You want to connect Electronic harassment is considered a delusion by many medical professionals with however there are patents at the U.S. Patent Office owned by the U.S. Air Force and U.S. Intelligence Community when no reliable WP:FRIND source has indicated these two things are connected and need to be taken into consideration. And adding ...proving that the technology to electronically harass people does exist is again, not supported by any reliable source, and dubious since patent filings don't indicate that a technology will work or does exist. There are also historical events, such as the Moscow Signal incident, suggesting that electronic harassment may have been used by the United States and Soviet Union... Again, this article is about the delusion that ordinary citizens are being targeted by mind control technology. No reliable source exists that connects Moscow Signal (or Havana syndrome) to this delusion or suggests that it may not be a delusion because these incidents occurred. - LuckyLouie (talk) 15:10, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

In addition the the National Academy of Sciences finding above that Havana Syndrome was most likely a pulsed energy weapon attack. I looked up directed energy weapons and law enforcement. Found a mobile version of a DEW called Silent Guardian which is marketed to civilian law enforcement and other security agencies since 2011. It actually states that it is at risk for inappropriate use because of the range. Ref: American Civil Liberties Union.

Regardless of who is at fault both of these sources exhibit evidence that electronic harrasment may not be psychosomatic. 2607:FB91:1842:D524:AC39:8277:99F0:83C9 (talk) 15:50, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

These sources are being interpreted by you as evidence that claims of covert electronic harassment of ordinary citizens may not be persecutory delusions. Because my neighbor owns lawn care chemicals that are poisonous when ingested does not mean he is secretly poisoning me. - LuckyLouie (talk) 16:02, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

So you didn't research the National Academy of Sciences finding that the victims of Havana Syndrome experienced real physical phenomenon not delusions. 2603:9001:2E02:EBC0:892B:9FE2:6A51:430B (talk) 00:47, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

It's irrelevant to this article, which is about people with delusions of persecution. MrOllie (talk) 00:53, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2023

This article, like all others on Wikipedia, is based on what published reliable sources have to say on the relevant subject matter itself. We do not engage in original research. This talk page is not a forum for speculation. Since no specific edit, citing appropriate sources directly supporting any such edit, has been proposed, this topic is closed.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Withholding (25 year delay) of U.S. President-ordered reform supports allegations of U.S. victims-community and Public Suspicions On March 27, 1997, President Bill Clinton ordered all? federal agencies then known to do human research to jointly propose, and to attempt to adopt, changes to the governmentwide common federal Policy for the Protection of Human Subjects [the June 1991 'Common Rule'], which would require informed consent for all classified human research. This ordered policy revision for classified human experimentation would: prohibit waiver of informed consent; require researchers to disclose to subjects that the project is classified; require permanent recordkeeping, and, for all studies except minimal risk human research, to require that researchers inform human subjects of the sponsoring agency. In doing so, President Clinton sought to implement a recommendation from the October 1995 Final Report of the federal Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments ['ACHRE'], its Recommendation 15, which recommended "the adoption of a federal policy requiring the informed consent of all human subjects of classified research and that this requirement not be subject to exemption or waiver". Originally, President Clinton's order had stated that "Agencies shall, within 1 year, after considering any comments, promulgate final rules on the protection of human subjects of classified research." However, as of the end of the Clinton Administration in January 2001, a draft notice for the policy change had not been approved by a few of the many agencies involved, and as of October 2023, this policy change has neither been jointly proposed to the Public, nor jointly adopted by the agencies. In June 2015, the U.S. Department of Energy ['DOE'] made a legal finding that the 'Clinton Memo' mandate "is still in effect and applicable to DOE". Subsequently, in January 2016, DOE adopted the basic Clinton Memo requirements as part of its internal policies. In November 2011, the U.S. Department of Defense ['DOD'] changed its internal policies to clearly include requirements of the Clinton Memo, but subsequent revisions to the DOD internal policy since April 2020 have fallen away from clearly stating those requirements, notably abandoning the unambiguous November 2011 statement that "Waivers of informed consent are prohibited." Therefore, the U.S. community of alleged victims of so called "electronic harassment" - but which in reality essentially alleges non-consensual human testing, or other activities, involving advanced technology electromagnetic-signals monitoring and harassment of the human body and brain, typically day and night, most plausibly by the U.S. Government - has reason to worry about the likely involvement of the U.S. Government, because of the U.S. Government's refusal to adopt changes to the governmentwide federal Policy which would clearly prohibit non-consensual classified human experimentation. This non-adoption should cause the Public to be suspicious as well. At the least, (as of October 2023) the U.S. Government appears to not be dedicated to safeguarding the basic U.S. constitutional rights of its citizens from non-consensual classified human testing programs. The requirement for informed consent for all human experimentation is part of the Nuremberg Code, is part of the I.C.C.P.R. human rights treaty (at ICCPR article 7), and is considered as a requirement by the [U.S.] Belmont Report - which remains a Congressionally mandated statement of the basic ethical principles under which federal sponsored human research shall be conducted. HRtsFan (talk) 12:39, 27 November 2023 (UTC) References Even ignoring the obvious synthesis of primary sources involved in the above, it presents precisely zero evidence that the documents concerned have anything to do with the topic of this article - a conspiracy theory alleging that thoughts etc are being transmitted into people's heads - and is accordingly irrelevant to this article. HRtsFan, I'd advise you to familiarise yourself with Wikipedia policies on the appropriate use of sources etc before commenting further. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:08, 27 November 2023 (UTC) Is your assertion that: allegations of electronic harassment have nothing to do with allegations of non-consensual human research/ experimentation? [ so, if electronic harassment were going on, who would be doing it, and why; as you may or may not know: the U.S. Government does have a history of involvement with non-consensual human research/ experimentation? So at least that would be one possibility in an objective person's mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical_human_experimentation#:~:text=Unethical%20human%20experimentation%20is%20human,under%20the%20guise%20of%20research ] re: you allege: 'synthesis of primary sources'; If a Blue Ribbon federal Advisory Committee identified a risk to citizens, and President Clinton acts on their recommendations, please describe how is that combo a 'synthesis of primary sources'? [re: blue ribbon: ever heard of Kenneth Feinberg? and also, Jonathan Moreno?; do you consider anyone an accomplished person? a reputable person?] And, concerning DOE, maybe I should have given the fuller, but more verbose, history where: it was Secretary of Energy Hazel O'Leary who, in December 1993, called for a review of radiation experiments from the recently completed Cold War. [ see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazel_R._O%27Leary , search for "experiments" ] I didn't push at you a synthesis. I just mentioned the 'main events' of a coherent little corner of U.S. government history. (And I didn't even mention Senator Glenn, who decried the risks to citizens in his proposing legislation on human experimentation, including a ban on funding non-consensual classified human research, to be based in Congressional law, not 'mere' regulation. President Clinton thanked Senator Glenn for adding to the governmental attention to Human Experimentation.)" The point is: there was a highest level U.S. Governmental finding (blue ribbon panel, endorsed by a [Rhodes Scholar] 2 time elected U.S. President. [ I should stop here. But I want you to know: what is the proper way to think, regarding beliefs? Answer: don't make " conclusions. Just build probabilities. Concluding ['100% and 'forever'] that 'electronic harassment' does not exist is an absurd conclusion. [Because all it takes is one good technology demo, or another Snowden, to reveal the alleged technology, which may in fact exist.] Assigning a probability to it based on current pros and cons? ok. You, and I, can and should do that. Fine. Did you consider: There are no physics principles which preclude using electromagnetic signals to eavesdrop upon bio-neurological, including brain, information? [if you alleged that ultrasound was being used to read real-time neural signals in a detailed manner, then I would doubt it, even though, hey, who knows, but its (currently) doubtful to me.] So why push your OPINION as a 100% certainty upon Wikipedia's audience? How sure SHOULD you, or ANYONE, be that "electronic harassment" is a conspiracy theory? It ain't 100%. And what are the most likely alternatives? Corporate activity? doubtful. Victims, and the U.S. Government employees or other hires who staff the 24/7 'surveillance, monitoring, and harassment' activity, together are part of a 'moon shot', or a '1/10' of the 100,000+ employee Manhattan Project; R+D+T+E -ing [Researching, Developing, Testing, and Evaluating] brain and body monitoring and interaction technology. If you meet the victims [say dozens of employed, and dozens of not-employed, victims], you would conclude: maybe 20%, or at most 40%?? [nah] chance that it is not actually happening to the victims. Many otherwise ordinary persons are functional and 'normal' in all ways EXCEPT that they each are being battered by electromagnetic-signals monitoring and assault/harassment [including in many cases advanced mind-control] 'weaponry', typically day and night. And except for its ill-effect on the person, they are normal in all or many other ways [except that many do get prone to conspiracy theory because, or especially-if, they are not near the science and computer software world, where what they are being abused by is just a very fancy hardware and software U.S. Government mega-project]. Granted, just like the Manhattan Project [100,000+ employees, but secrecy yet 'maintained'], the science of real-time electromagnetic signals monitoring of (and interaction with) brain and body neurology is an undisclosed technology, as of yesterday. Granted. But, you [and everyone] need to build your 'decision tree', and construct the branches. If its not going on then .. [if there were fMRI's lab-rooms within every square mile, then I believe that you would have a problem defending that 'branch' for your beliefs]; if it [electronic harassment] is going on, then: refusal by the U.S. Government to enact protection of citizens from non-consensual classified human research would allow perpetuation of an existing classified 'moon-shot'/ mega-project. Make a list of all of the alleged non-consensual testing programs, and you end up with at most a few, and you end up most prominently with the well-funded mega-project, so called 'electronic harassment'. ] HRtsFan (talk) 09:34, 8 December 2023 (UTC)  Not done An anonymous essay claiming that certain language contained in legislature indicates the US government secretly intends non-consensual testing on humans. No, Wikipedia doesn't indulge evidence-free speculation. - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:16, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Unprofessional Article

This article is based on published reliable sources, as determined by Wikipedia policy. Such policies are not open to negotiation here.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
}} This article is unprofessional. It links everything with everything. It combines the belief of TI and realistic programs of the US government like MK-ULTRA with delusional. These are completely different subjects. Brain targeted weapons exist. They are real and demonstrated. The governments that experimented with brain control exist. And why so biast in the so called 'medical professionals' that do the claim about hallucinations or psychosis in the wiki? (1)Article from 2007 is no evidence for the claim. Read it. Not medical. It is just a story. (2)Article from 2012. Author? Angela Monroe from Kmir news? is she medical professional ? No is not. It is illustrative. (5) General book about disorders. (6) A doctor talks about 'groupthink' and a patient that is already 20 years schizophrenic. No realistic evidence for the claim. This is Wikipedia and we need to inform correctly. It is time to write a new wiki about AI and radio technology that is capable and useable of mind control. "At various times and places throughout history, gouvernments have indeed attempted to develop mind-contol capabilities-and some of those efforts have continued to this day. ... For most of the topics I've covered thus far, there have been shades of gray; our cognitive liberties are not always absolute. But when it comes to the weaponization of mind control, virtually every example is clearly over the line." Book: 'The Battle for your Brain' Nita A. Faharany - board member Presidential Commission Bioethical Issues 145.87.253.240 (talk) 22:14, 13 June 2024 (UTC) Are you going to make a specific request? Like "change X to Y", or "remove X", and so on. I don't see anything above but venting and vague handwaving complaints. You mention sources but nothing specific enough to be actionable. ~Anachronist (talk) 22:33, 13 June 2024 (UTC) Absolutely I do. I want the wiki presenting truth and reality. I want the specific phrase to be removed. Not only because it is very outdated, the links in the discussed phrase are -as I demonstrated-, not correct. The claim 'medical professionals' is false. So I ask to update the wiki. I have more and there is more reliable research that is up to date on this subject. The source I presented is very recent, and as member of the presidential ethical commission: truthful and valuable. 145.87.253.240 (talk) 11:11, 18 June 2024 (UTC) So I want this section and the links removed. And add the tekst I mentioned with link to the book. 'Multiple medical professionals have concluded that these experiences are hallucinations, the result of delusional disorders, or psychosis.' 145.87.253.240 (talk) 11:16, 18 June 2024 (UTC) I agree this is a totally biased article that uses biased language. 2600:1005:A021:5C42:7DFC:1A2E:A72F:E974 (talk) 19:15, 28 August 2024 (UTC) There is no evidence that mind control of that sort even exists, as opposed to mere propaganda. Of course, some researchers tried to do that, but there is no indication they ever succeeded. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:58, 29 August 2024 (UTC) You are absolutely correct. The entire article should be removed and the author no longer allowed to publish. A propagandist and quite possibly a perpetuator. 2600:1012:B346:9EF2:19F2:2B1:C39F:46F7 (talk) 02:13, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Havana syndrome and related phenomena

I'm unsure how to approach this and would appreciate some input.

This article has considerable content overlap with Havana syndrome, Directed-energy weapons, and the evolving geopolitical situation which concerns them. This 60 minutes report from March 2024 gives an overview; in brief:

Investigations from 60 Minutes, Der Spiegel, and The Insider suggest Russia’s GRU might be behind the mysterious Havana Syndrome using directed energy weapons. The CIA claims most cases are due to environmental or medical factors, not foreign attacks. Experts are divided on whether the tech to cause these symptoms is real and usable.

The tone taken in this article is not an honest attempt at WP:NPOV given the above information.

I will be WP:BOLD if I do not hear anything for a day or two. I look forward to the back-and-forth :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetstache (talk • contribs) 20:15, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Just American political silliness. There's no evidence "Havana Syndrome" has anything to do with external phenomena, and in any case it would be off-topic here. Bon courage (talk) 20:24, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

If you aren't familiar with Wikipedia:No original research policy, I recommend you read it carefully. This article cites multiple sources discussing a phenomenon almost universally acknowledged by qualified medical professionals as a delusional belief system. It does not discuss Havana syndrome, or directed energy weapons, and unless and until sources of similar credibility make a direct link between supposed 'electronic harassment' and such topics, this article cannot do so, per policy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:27, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not very familiar with the electronic harassment landscape but I can assure you that I'm not a fan of quackery. The following source (as well as others) and its claims are why I'm motivated to be engaging in this topic:

NY Times - U.S. Diplomats and Spies Battle Trump Administration Over Suspected Attacks

"American officials in China, Cuba and Russia say U.S. agencies are concealing the true extent of the episodes, leaving colleagues vulnerable to hostile actions abroad...Doctors at the University of Pennsylvania declined to discuss details but dismissed the idea of a psychological illness, saying the patients they treated had sustained a brain injury from an external source."

NY Times - Were U.S. Diplomats Attacked in Cuba? Brain Study Deepens Mystery

" “Something happened to the brain”of diplomats who reported odd ailments, a brain-imaging study suggests. But the cause is still unclear...

Based on the findings, Dr. Verma said that a wholly psychogenic or psychosomatic cause was very unlikely. “But I don’t know the cause,” she said. “The imaging by itself cannot tell us that.”

Outside experts were divided on the study’s conclusions. Some saw important new evidence; others say it is merely a first step toward an explanation, and difficult to interpret given the small number of patients.

“It’s good work, but there’s just not enough here to come to any conclusion,” said Dr. Mark Rasenick, a neuroscientist at the University of Illinois Chicago School of Medicine. Dr. Rasenick is a member of the Cuban Academy of Science and has close ties to scientists there who have been skeptical that invisible weapons were involved. “I think the only reason it’s going in JAMA is that it’s such a politically charged topic.”

In an editor’s note, two editors of the journal acknowledged the uncertainties in the findings, but added: “These unique data provide additional information and contribute to a growing evidence base that may help in understanding the neurological signs and symptoms experienced by this group of individuals.” "

I come in peace, and would appreciate a call-out if I'm being a WP:SEALION. Admittedly, I'm also uneasy because this page and its editors do not appear very welcoming to this information.

Thoughts? Sweetstache (talk) 20:49, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Again, this is not an article about 'Havana syndrome'. It concerns a particular manifestation of a relatively common delusion first documented amongst psychiatric patients long before electronics existed: see Air Loom and On the Origin of the "Influencing Machine" in Schizophrenia for discussions of early instances that led to increased medical understanding of psychiatric illness. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for clearing that up for me! I made some adjustments so we can avoid further confusion. Please let me know if there are any issues Sweetstache (talk) 01:09, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Apparatus and method for remotely monitoring and altering a target's brain waves / central nervous system

Proof of Torture and Mind Control https://postimg.cc/NLyYCPKG https://postimg.cc/DJL68TCy https://postimg.cc/0rdg4R8s https://postimg.cc/BtG9NQfp https://postimg.cc/m14w95q3 https://postimg.cc/HjW3TfwH https://postimg.cc/vcN0q36y — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.3.22.107 (talk) 01:52, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 November 2024

CHANGE: "Electronic harassment, electromagnetic torture, or psychotronic torture is the delusional belief, held by individuals who call themselves "targeted individuals" (TIs), that malicious actors are transmitting sounds and thoughts into people's heads, affecting their bodies, and harassing them generally.[1][2] The delusion often concerns government agents or crime rings and alleges that the "perpetrators" use electromagnetic radiation (such as the microwave auditory effect), radar, and surveillance techniques to carry out their goals.[1][2]"

TO: "Electronic harassment, electromagnetic torture, or psychotronic torture is the belief, held by individuals who may refer to themselves as "targeted individuals" (TIs), that malicious actors are transmitting sounds and thoughts into people's heads, affecting their bodies, and harassing them generally.[1][2] The belief often concerns government agents or crime rings and alleges that the "perpetrators" use electromagnetic radiation (such as the microwave auditory effect), radar, and surveillance techniques to carry out their goals.[1][2]

The reason for the change is because not everyone who experiences electronic harassment is delusional and claiming they all are is doing a disservice to people who are actually affected by this phenomena. There are laws written into effect and many cases of people who have been prosecuted for things like cyber stalking and electronic harassment. See my sources below. Thank you. https://www.unca.edu/storehouse/policies/1217/ https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Chapter9/76-9-S201.html https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/07/10/seattle-man-prison-cyberstalking/74358201007/ https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdfl/pr/former-fiu-student-convicted-cyber-harassing-new-york-family Roosteronthemountain (talk) 20:48, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done Change would require prior consensus. Bon courage (talk) 20:49, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Roosteronthemountain: the sources you offer describe and refer to Cyberstalking. This article is about the delusional belief that government or criminals are literally controlling people's minds through technology, and our cited sources support that distinction. - LuckyLouie (talk) 21:14, 9 November 2024 (UTC)