User talk:WarKosign/Archive 1

Do you really concern neutrality of the pages?

Hi. I am not an Arab nor an Israelite, And actually I do not favor any of them over another. But when I saw a section in an Israeli-Palestinian conflict, that was apparently intended to show Palestinian casualties,I noticed one full paragraph was inserted to at the beginning of the section to tell that the numbers may be wrong! Hey man, All numbers may be wrong, but in normal circumstances you do not explain this with one introducing paragraph. It is obvious that this extra information is put there to make the section less readable and to bury the death numbers of Palestinians.

Is not wikipedia a place to show facts?

I might tell the Israelites that "You may have the right to kill other children in order to protect your own children, but do you have the right to hide your killings? Does not it show you believe that your actions have been unjustified?" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qudas (talk • contribs) 15:03, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

@Qudas: The numbers by GHM are not facts, they are propaganda. Gaza health ministry is controlled by Hamas and publishes anything that Hamas decides will benefit it. It's a matter of time until the world admits it. Check this article. During each conflict Palestinians cry "massacre ! Evil jews are murdering our innocent children ! 90% of the causalities are civilians". Then after the fighting is over they have to publish reports, and the world noticesignores their lies. See this report by ITIC for example. here is another article on this. Also read about Pallywood before you believe every image Hamas publishes. Lying about their casualties is a part of their tactics. The purpose of the WP article is to represent the neutral point of view, so both points of view are represented, with a disclaimer saying that at the moment there is no single "correct" source that everybody can agree with. “WarKosign” 15:14, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

As I said, I have no particular sympathy for the Palestinians not have I for the Israelites. They are all human being suffering from a conflict that is (I believe) imposed on them by a few outsiders who never suffer and on the contrary benefits from the conflict. Anyway, speaking of the neutrality of the pages, I do not want to take excess attention to the numbers because even one unjust killing is painful. Maybe (and probably) Hamas is rising the numbers, but 2000 is so high that even a fraction of it could be a very significant (when it is related to human losing). Hiding the amount of disaster never helps ending these killings. I do not know you but I am pretty sure that you are not among the few ones who benefit from this massacre. You may live far from the conflict zone, but no one is immune of the consequences of spreading of crime. It is crime against Humanity not just against Muslims or Jews. Please do something to stop it or at least lessen it.
In your conscience I believe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qudas (talk • contribs) 02:08, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not following this

I had a pretty good talk, with a number of editors and -- while they have raised a bit of title-relating concern, they did not protest and, best I can tell, you did not protest it as well. So, why not let a version of the first paragraph that is sitting nicely on another longer standing article sit nicely on this article as well?[1] Did you make any talk page comment about it? There is something about reverting that is not nice, and I haven't seen you object on the talk page. Only others, raising concerns, not full blown objection -- that's why non of them reverted. In short, I hope you reconsider and agree that this version does have a good chance to stand the test of time (as it did on the other article). Let me know. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 10:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

@MarciulionisHOF: As I commented, it was a BOLD edit, to be reverted by someone strongly objecting and then discussed on the talk page. I wrote about my intentions to make the change yesterday, and since nobody responded I took it as silent agreement.

I had a look on ODS's lead, and it looks quite similar in structure: first paragraph is operation's name and stated goal, second paragraph is summary of the action and then there is a conclusion that we currently lack.

"Operation Protective Edge" is not the article's title, and there is no point pretending it is. Insisting to have appear first only resulted in awkward first sentence. It still appears in bold at the beginning of the article. If this name will be the one used by many sources, it would make sense to raise the issue of changing the name of the article again. WarKosign (talk) 10:50, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

What's the case with the Defensive Shield article? Is it really different than Protective Edge? My suggestion is to go with versions that lasted the test of time. Not to revert back to weird versions that nobody's happy with on an encyclopedic level. I mean -- are there a lot of articles where the title is written in that funny way you reverted to? MarciulionisHOF (talk) 12:17, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

@MarciulionisHOF: See this. Even if the article title does change back toe OPE, I think the way it's written now is clearer. I do not feel very strongly about it, raise the issue on the article's talk page - I will not object to the change. WarKosign (talk) 12:24, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I already raised in on talk before making the change. I will link to your note of acceptance in returning the text. Hopefully, no one will try to prosecute me over it -- it seems I've been marked as a target lately. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 14:41, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

@MarciulionisHOF: I think it would be best for you to tune down your style on the talk page. I agree with most of what you have to say, but there are more civil ways to say that, and perhaps then people would react more to what you have to say rather than getting annoyed with how you say it. WarKosign (talk) 20:09, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Thus far, I've seen some pretty horrible stuff on the talk page. Will anyone say something about foruming (whatever that means) to a few of the "Israel-illegal"..."IDF unreliable"..."USA unrelated"..."Hamas politicians/PR-department are not Hamas" publicists (Hebrew word, sadly, no direct translation). Geez. MarciulionisHOF (talk) 23:22, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

@MarciulionisHOF: IMO, an article on such a subject divides editors into 3 types:

1. Those who don't care one way or the other, but want to use the most correct sources for Wikipedia to best represent all the existing viewpoints.
2. Those who have an opinion which viewpoint is true, but understand that other viewpoints exist. They will argue their position but will be convinced when the other side presents a reasonable argument.
3. Those who try to force their viewpoints at any cost, even when it may be factually incorrect.

1 is the best, 2 is tolerable. 3 is not accepted behaviour for an editor. You do not want people to think you are #3. If you have opinions, you should state them politely, show respect to (reasonable) opinions of other editors even when you do not agree with them. You need to convince people that you are correct, or at least that you MAY be correct, so your viewpoint should be represented in the article together with the opposing one. #3 gets people into edit warring and blocking. #2 and #1 results in good and balanced articles. Foruming is discussing the operation itself instead of the article. The talk page exists for discussing how to make the article on the "2014 conflict" better and more representing the true. To do it it is acceptable to discuss how you see the facts on the talk page, but always in relation to a change that someone did or you think that should be done on the page. WarKosign (talk) 20:36, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Edits on Gaza conflict

Apart from the serious POV problem you are making by constantly removing and making the number of civilians killed less notable, you have breached the 1RR on 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict. If you don't self-revert, expect to be reported. --IRISZOOM (talk) 20:50, 30 August 2014 (UTC) @IRISZOOM: Feel free to report, along with your own edit warring. WarKosign (talk) 20:56, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

WP:AE report

I have filed a report at WP:AE regarding your actions. See this. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

The AE report has been closed with a warning to you. At least three admins believe you are close to the edge of acceptable behavior in the ARBPIA domain, or beyond the edge. If future violations are brought to AE, borderline or not, action is likely. Rapid-fire editing of complex topics can put you over 1RR, even unintentionally. These violations are noted and will be enforced. A sincere desire to improve the article doesn't absolve you from the 1RR restriction. Slowing down your pace of edits is one option. Self-reverting when challenged for 1RR is another. Let me know if you have any questions. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 15:38, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

hamas claim

i don't know how old you are or what level of education you reached and i don't want to know , but you really have a problem of understanding arguments for reasons i really cannot understand,tell me is it language barriers or is it an emotional one.

listen , i know you hate Hamas as much as i hate IDF , cut the crap we both know that, but listen dude : you have to use your mind brother or should i say cousin .

i am not saying Hamas claim is reliable or not or even the IDF's claim is reliable or not, but a claim is a claim . if i mentioned the figure 1000 as a given fact then you have the right to be mad , but i did not do that . i just said it is Hamas claim.

you can not possibly omit Hamas figures because they are one of the two sides of the war, seriously i told you a hundred times if you don't want Hamas references then change the title to ISRAEL NARRATIVE OF THE 2014 GAZA CONFLICT.

I DO BELIEVE THAT NEXT STEP SHOULD BE ADMINISTARTORS INTERVENTION.SORRY MANZaid almasri (talk) 19:09, 4 September 2014 (UTC) Zaid almasri (talk) 19:09, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

@Zaid almasri: You are entitled to your opinions. There is an ongoing RfC, the result is not final but so far 7 editors believe that the claim does not deserve to be represented in the infobox due to the lack of minimal reliability while 3 editors (including you) disagree. Wikipedia is built on consensus. If you cannot convince a significant number of other editors and try to force your opinion it will probably result in you being banned. Note that it is forbidden to use fake accounts to create a false impression that many editors agree with you.

If you believe that Wikipedia rules have been violated you should contact administrators. Otherwise, you should not make such threats.

As for the claim itself - looks like Hamas did make this claim. It does not deserve to be in the infobox. What if they claimed that they are firing pieces of blue cheese and not rockets, would you demand putting that in the infobox too ? They made many false claims, I listed them all on the media coverage page, you are welcome to add more ridiculous claims there if you can find sources. You can argue that this section belongs in the main article body - maybe enough people will agree with that. WarKosign (talk) 19:59, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Single Purpose Account

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Monopoly31121993 (talk)

@Monopoly31121993: Thanks. I believe this page might be of interest for you.WarKosign (talk) 19:05, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

sorry for doing it twice a day, i will make sure i will do it only once a day in the future. dont threaten me you know what the outcome will be, if the outcome is what you think then you would have done it long time ago i said before that i have a very long breath, you can say that i am a as stubborn as Hamas. by the way soon i will add hamas figures regarding its own fatalities (less than 100) so get ready and if you keep removing hamas claims i will make sure all idf claims are removed also just give me time brother.Zaid almasri (talk) 18:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

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October 2014

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Problems with the operation timeline

Do you know how to fix this?--Wlglunight93 (talk) 14:17, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

@Wlglunight93: No, I don't know. This problem was there before, when I tried to fix it I broke something else. I'll try learning the transcluding tags and see what I can do. “WarKosign” 17:22, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

@Wlglunight93: Fixed it now. It was my fault, I added a <noinclude> tag on the background section of the timeline since there was no point in having duplicate background, but somehow lost the matching </noinclude> tag. “WarKosign” 15:27, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

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Ban Ki-moon

I see now that I forgot to add the source for the quote from Ban Ki-moon and I see you added a tag. I was just wondering, considering it would take the same amount of time for you to add the source as it would take to add the tag, why didn't you choose to add the source and improve the article? I do however understand it was quicker for you to tag with a not-in-source tag then to read the source, but the relevant part was only in the second paragraph. I hope your adversarial mentality will end soon and that you begin to collaborate to improve articles in the future. Dr. R.R. Pickles (talk) 21:14, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

@Dr. R.R. Pickles: When you add a claim, it is your responsibility to find the sources. If you do not have a source, you should not add the statement. If you add the statement it should be easy for you to add the source. Don't expect other editors to do the work for you. Once you provide a source some editor will review it to see that the source is reliable and it actually says what you wrote. The statement you quoted does not sound to me like Ban Ki-moon, usually he doesn't openly take sides - maybe it's only half a quote ? Either way, if his statement belongs in the article, it belongs in the #Reactions section and not in the lead.

Regarding your previous edit, +972 Magazine is a blog site and is not usable as a source. Try to find a reliable source for the same claim. Even if you do find the source (and there no other reliable sources contradicting it), the statement has to be integrated cleanly into the lead - we worked hard to keep it short and to the point, no reason to bloat it just because you feel like it. “WarKosign” 21:43, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Are you claiming you could not find a source for Ban Ki-moon's neutral quote? Dr. R.R. Pickles (talk) 21:48, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

@Dr. R.R. Pickles:I did not bother looking before. Now I looked for the piece of text that you quoted and found it here. Clearly the text that you quoted is not from Mr. Ban but from an unnamed UN employee who wrote the story. Mr. Ban is quoted saying a few things, not what you added to the article. Will you remove it yourself or do I need to revert your addition ?“WarKosign” 21:55, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

That's okay I added the source, hopefully you'll help me fix my mistakes next time. Dr. R.R. Pickles (talk) 22:07, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

@Dr. R.R. Pickles: Now with a proper source it looks much better. here is the full speech, btw. You missed a few important quotes: "I call on all parties to come together to chart a clear course towards a just and final peace -- including achieving a full lifting of the blockade, ensuring Israel’s legitimate security concerns; and establishing two States living side by side in peace and security.". The lead is still not the right place for it, this speech was given in reaction to the conflict, so it belongs in the Reactions subpage. “WarKosign” 22:30, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

As I had mentioned on the talk page the lead was missing the extremely vital fact that Gaza was under occupation. The quote is also important for the lead as it states what the root causes were of the entire conflict. Can you think of a better source for the root causes than Ban Ki-moon who you state is known for not taking sides. The sections you quote don't fill any void in the lead. Dr. R.R. Pickles (talk) 22:37, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

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I invite you to a discussion

Hi. A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Gaza beach explosion (2006) should be moved to Israeli bombing of the Gaza beach (2006). I would like to know your opinion about this issue.--Mevarus (talk) 01:48, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

@Mevarus: Note that to avoid being accused of canvassing you should invite all the users at talk pages of relevant articles (for example talk:Gaza–Israel conflict or projects (Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration). “WarKosign” 07:21, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

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A good 2015 to you and yours!

I know we had new year three months ago but hey why not. Hope its a safe, happy and productive one. Cheers from Irondome (talk) 13:07, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

@Irondome: same back at you. “WarKosign” 15:05, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

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Photo of Netanyahu

Someone has changed Benjamin Netanyahu's infobox photo against the consensus about it on its Talk page at a discussion you've created. Please revert it - it's so blurry i can't stop cringing. Meg2015 (talk) 00:22, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

@Antandrus: Per WP:TPO, you are not supposed to touch other editor's comments.

@Meg2015: Already taken care of. “WarKosign” 07:53, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

In general, that is true. However any edits made by an editor in violation of a block or ban can be removed, and it has long been standard practice to roll back everything done by sockpuppets, as was the case here. (Anyone can put such comments back if they want, on their own talk page, as you did.) Antandrus (talk) 23:41, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

@Antandrus: I haven't noticed then that you mass-reverted a sock. I thought you objected to Meg2015's disliking the photo of Netanyahu.

I understand banning the sock and reverting the edits on article pages, but reverting (and not revdeleting) edits on talk pages seems pointless to me - nearly anyone would still see the comments and respond/act on them despite the deletion. “WarKosign” 07:37, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Yep, I know. There have been times I've let comments stand on user talk pages (especially if someone else has already commented -- then you really have to). I was probably just lazy -- its easy to click "rollback" on everything, especially when there are a lot to clean up. Cheers, Antandrus (talk) 03:04, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Israeli-Gaza conflict dead

In that case you could join in on the discussion here User talk:Annoynmous#New Israeli figure. I already updated the article per report 8. The figure actually does not come from the ITIC. They haven't updated their figure since report 7. The new 2,140 figure comes from an Israeli security source as cited by the ITIC. So I added that figure a few days ago under the IDF heading. However user Annoynmous reverted me and reinstated the old IDF figure by saying the source is the ITIC, and moved it to the ITIC column. But when he also saw the number was not from the ITIC he reinstated their old figure as well and removed both the 2,140 figure and the source (part 8) altogether. I just left him a message and a compromise proposal that we remove the IDF figure since its highly out-of-date and replace it with the new 2,140 figure but we also name the source as Israeli security and not the IDF. Since although the IDF is part of the Israeli security forces we cann't know for sure the source came from them. But it is still an official source. Your opinion at his talk page would be appreciated. EkoGraf (talk) 09:43, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

@EkoGraf: I will look into these figures later. I need to understand what's going on with the sources and the numbers to make an argument. “WarKosign” 08:05, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Annoynmous and I have resolved the issue. We have attributed the figures cited in the ITIC report 8 as coming from the Israeli security forces in the infobox and in the main casualties table. EkoGraf (talk) 08:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

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IR

I think you're over the 1R there at the Israel-Palestinian conflict 2014. Nishidani (talk) 21:00, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: I see two reverts, one of them of an IP user so it doesn't count. Am I missing something else ?“WarKosign” 21:11, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

The problem is, you made a notable spelling mistake (stroke=struck) (aside from reverting the natural order of something I wrote. I'll fix them tomorrow, when the 24 hours expire. Nishidani (talk) 21:18, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: I fixed the spelling, I think you could fix it yourself. While technically removal of a single letter is a revert, fixing an obvious mistake that goes unchallenged shouldn't be considered a revert.

I did not remove any of your information, only changed the word order to make room for the missing numbers, I do not think it can be called a revert (unless you are calling it so now). I am not perfectly happy with my wording, but your version sounded as if out of 4500 rockets only 250 were dangerous. Many of the rockets falling in the "open areas" also caused damage. “WarKosign” 22:17, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

The damage claims exceed the residential buildings hit by a factor of 15. Go figure. Nishidani (talk) 10:48, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: I wondered about that too. Damage in open areas could explain some of that. Debris of shot down rockets (and of the interceptors themselves) could cause damage, perhaps a single rocket could (slightly) damage several properties. Surely not 100% of the claims will be honored. Anyway, these are just my speculations, I couldn't find any sources for that. “WarKosign” 10:53, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

'Damage' to property can signify having to take time off work to remove shrapnel fragments from farmland. If you used the same quantification figures for what occurred on the other side of the border, the list would be infinite (and ongoing since 35% of the prime agricultural land there is off-limits and thoroughly potted with disused shells, bombs and cartridges). I just dislike vague wording in sources, from whatever quarter. We don't have real data, so there's nothing one can do for the moment. Nishidani (talk) 11:09, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: It could also mean people killed in "open land" or severe damage to cattle.“WarKosign” 12:34, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Piddling (30 cows) in proportional terms, though of course it does explain what the claims cover for recompense, though it was a very rare, isolated incident, as far as I can see as opposed to the vast systematic destruction of anything growing or any livestock living in Gaza's fields and farms. Compare the mirror image here in Gaza

vs 15,000 sheep and goats and 'large swaths of Gaza's 17,000 hectares of cropland', et.etc.etc.Nishidani (talk) 12:48, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Removed subsection

I've removed this subsection because I don't see where this will end positively on either side. I've left a comment on Gouncbeatduke's page, but I'd like to ask that you not make a comment there because I don't really see where this topic will really go anywhere positive or end well for either of you. I'd also suggest that the both of you just avoid one another for the time being and go through a neutral third party or through one of the other processes like dispute resolution or third opinion rather than directly interact with one another. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 05:30, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

@Tokyogirl79: How can this topic end badly for me (unless of course the accusation is correct) ? Can I request CU to clear my name of this slander? Perhaps I should open an SPI against myself ? “WarKosign” 07:51, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

• It could end badly because it could escalate into an ANI issue where the both of you are given an official interaction ban with one another. Plus the conversation wasn't constructive on either end and it was just arguing back and forth. If you want to request a CU to verify that you aren't the vandal (I've since looked at some of your edits and interactions and I don't think that you're the vandal FWIW), email Wikimedia's legal team, or open up a thread on ANI then you can, but I think that offhand it'd just be better if the whole argument was just dropped and the thread removed. You can re-add it if you want, but I don't see where anything good will come out of it. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 08:28, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

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Synth or not, that is the question -- or is it?

Anyways, next time (if there is one), I'll ask you in front if you find an edit legit or not to avoid a meta discussion that by now looks to me like a holdup and else.If one or more of this is indeed the case: Kudos, you played well, tho if the other players have the assets to keep playing, that move is doomed.
Shalom to you (in any sense you like/prefer) and keep up being honest at the end like in this tiny little silly shitty matter. Cheers, TMCk (talk) 02:57, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

@The Magnificent Clean-keeper: Feel free to read any meaning/intention into my comments. However:

1. When I object to something I usually remove it from the article, at least once.

2. I have nothing to gain by delaying addition of valid and sourced material.

3. I'm not that smart.“WarKosign” 07:16, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

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Interaction ban

User:WarKosign, as per the oucome of this AE request you are banned from interacting with User:Gouncbeatduke for three months as per the policy outlined at WP:IBAN. Please note that this is an Arbitration enforcement decision made under the provision for discretionary sanctions as a result of the final decision of Palestine-Israel articles request for Arbitration--Cailil ^talk 09:39, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

@Cailil: Can you please respond to my question regarding my misbehavior? A ban is supposed to be preventative, so surely the admins believe there is a reason to expect something bad that this ban would prevent, may I know what it is ? “WarKosign” 09:43, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Responding to your question[2] re: RFCs and IBANs. I would advise against responding to any RFC opened by Gouncbeatduke as your comment would be a reply to their request. Avoid any and all contact--Cailil ^talk 09:45, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

• Regarding your above point - Interaction bans are generally two ways to create a chance of success not as a marker of mutual misbehaviour. It would be impossible for Gouncbeatduke not to be interacting with you if you interact with him--Cailil ^talk 09:51, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

@Cailil: Thanks for the reply. I would appreciate if the AE result would say that there was no misbehavior on my side. “WarKosign” 11:47, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

grundutbildning

Hi,

Just wonder of your referencing to an article on Israel, section grundutbildning. The text is "Enligt en stor undersökning publicerad i februari 2013 ger läroböckerna en snedvriden bild av palestinierna och områdets historia. Bland annat visar kartor inte de riktiga gränserna.". The reference mentions the borders being omitted on both sides of the conflict, but the general topic of the article was that Palestinian and Orthodox Jewish (a minority in Israel) schoolbooks were biased, while the ones from the Israeli government were not.

The way that section is written is clearly not objective and should be edited.

Sincerely,

zekewarg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zekewarg (talk • contribs) 08:51, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

@Zekewarg: I do not understand what you are talking about. The section name and the text sound like Swedish to me, yet I do not know the language nor ever touched any article in Swedish or another north European language. “WarKosign” 09:54, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

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Thanks for moving that and responding, but I@ve deleted it as an obvious sock - see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Unavailable.undisclosed and [3] shows they are here just to disrupt, as does the SPI. Dougweller (talk) 12:16, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

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al Shati camp 31

The 11 civilians in my last edit seems to refer to the same incident. I'm busy today, but if you care to check pp.47ff of the second Amnesty Report, the details are there, for an incident dated 28 July. Nishidani (talk) 12:02, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: This info was already added under alleged war crimes, I'm not sure we need to duplicate it. “WarKosign” 12:30, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

How stupid of me. Apologies for the distraction.Nishidani (talk) 12:49, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

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AN/I

A discussion that you may be interested in has been started at WP:AN/I GregKaye 16:40, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

@GregKaye: Thanks for the ping. “WarKosign” 16:54, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

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IBAN with Gouncbeatduke and edits to Talk:Israel

Hi WarKosign, regarding your edits in the "The borders of the new state were not specified.", not a NPOV section, I would be very careful of involving yourself in discussions started by Gouncbeatduke about their edits as it wouldn't be a stretch to call it "make reference to or comment on editor Y anywhere on Wikipedia, whether directly or indirectly". Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:35, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

@Callanecc: No problem, I will avoid this discussion (which seems to have ended anyway). I do not see how anything I wrote can be stretched to be called an IBAN violation - I made comments on the content, not on any particular edit, and made sure it's always clear who am I replying to. If an IBAN requires an editor to avoid discussions depending on who created them, the policy should be explicit about it.“WarKosign” 13:13, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. The reason why it doesn't is because if too much is spelt out then people can argue that what isn't there doesn't count as a violation. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 14:53, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

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WarKosign?

Any chance that your username is based on SF SAGA with a similar name? ETA: I just noticed "This user enjoys works of Science Fiction." uhm :) --Elysans (talk) 09:15, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

@Elysans: Yep, it's garbled Vorkosigan. “WarKosign” 09:20, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

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State of Palestine

Hello. You reverted one of my recent edits here but thank you for providing a detailed summary. Ordinarily I would agree enough not to have made the change in the first place. The basis for my phrasing is down to the State's undisputed legality. That appears to be the way it is treated on the site because the opening line defines it as a de jure sovereign state; Israel's own withdrawal from Gaza is inconsistent with any nation's position of territorial integrity. As such, the State only claims as much as any other sovereign entity claims its land. I can see how in some respects the term "claim" alludes to not having full control, but one would still speak of the Donbass republics and Crimea as constituting Ukraine, rather than Ukraine claiming control over Donbass (Lugansk and Donetsk) and Crimea. With his is mind, I feel we should reword it but I'd like to hear your views. Incidentally, I need to mention this to avoid accusations of forum-shaping, I am involved in a conversation at Talk:Kosovo whereby I oppose its addition to the category for countries in Europe. This topic may loosely fit into the other so I'm just being cautious. Thanks. --Oranges Juicy (talk) 15:07, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

@Oranges Juicy: I think we should be discussing it on moved the discussion to the article's own talk page, so more editors could contribute their opinions. “WarKosign” 16:56, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

2014 Israel–Gaza conflict#In Israel removal

Hi WK,

I noticed on the article the "In Israel" section which seems to be out of place as it appears under "Alleged violations by Hamas" section. Looking at the talk page history I found this conversation which you concluded with I'm assuming by no more responses that we are in agreement that it should be removed since the "removes" have the majority? but it seems like you haven't actually removed it. Is there a reason for that? Or did it just escaped?

Cheers, Kigelim (talk) 20:06, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

@Kigelim: It wasn't I who concluded it, it was Knightmare72589. “WarKosign” 21:09, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Unbelievable :). My appologies Kigelim (talk) 00:00, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

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Official data

The official data is out, as you will have noted, for the 2014 Gaza conflict. It would require several straightforward adjustments, involving I think the removal of the unofficial or provisory columns and data referred to incomplete work through to December. I hope some official reports can replace also the various Palestinian reports. Could you handle it? Thanks Nishidani (talk) 19:25, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

@Nishidani: Which official data are you referring to ?“WarKosign” 20:27, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I see it.“WarKosign” 20:29, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Ah, beat me to it. I was just going to plaster The 2014 Gaza Conflict: factual and Legal Aspects, (May) 14 June 2015. In fact I have. Now back to Wexler. Cheers Nishidani (talk) 20:34, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Israeli report

Hi. Could you add some information of this report in the article about 2014 Israel–Gaza conflict? Thanks a lot--Averysoda (talk) 01:50, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

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You deleted my edit on Carlos Latuff b/c Source misrepresentation: "It's a stretch to categorize his cartoons as antisemitic" is not "clearly not correct". It looks like you confuse source with Wikipedia. The source doesn't say anything remotely similar to "clearly not correct" I don't see how the quote misrepresent it. DaniDin (talk) 15:24, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Carlos Latuff

You deleted my edit on Carlos Latuff b/c Source misrepresentation: "It's a stretch to categorize his cartoons as antisemitic" is not "clearly not correct". It looks like you confuse source with Wikipedia. The source doesn't say anything remotely similar to "clearly not correct" I don't see how the quote misrepresent it. DaniDin (talk) 15:25, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

@DaniDin and Brewcrewer: The article contained a quote from the source saying "often terribly obnoxious... but it is a stretch to categorize his cartoons as antisemitic", which you replaced with "this is clearly not correct". The source doesn't say that, this is your conclusion - a justifiable one, but not necessarily correct. It's better to quote the source directly and avoid guessing what exactly the author meant. “WarKosign” 15:49, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

We both agree but you mistakenly put back the misrepresentation. Check the edit closely! DaniDin (talk) 16:33, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

@DaniDin and Brewcrewer: Yep, I'm a moron.“WarKosign” 17:23, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Vorkosigan

It is strange, I didn't realize that your handle was based on the Vorkosigan saga, till I saw the comment above. When I first encountered you, I hadn't read the series, but since then I've read almost all of them. Great stuff. Kingsindian ♝♚ 20:50, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: Go ahead and complete them. There is a new book scheduled. “WarKosign” 08:30, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

The last one I read was Diplomatic Immunity. Haven't read Captain Vorpatril's Alliance or Cryoburn. Kingsindian ♝♚ 10:57, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

@Kingsindian: You should complete Cryoburn before reading anything about the premise of Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen to avoid a spoiler.

Captain Vorpatril's Alliance can be placed anywhere in the reading sequence as long as it's after Memory (and preferably A Civil Campaign). I found it similar to ACC in tone and the focus on Ivan.“WarKosign” 11:08, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

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See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gaza_Strip#Edit_warring_over_the_lead --Avner Kushner (talk) 00:13, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

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An improvement to the result field, please see most recent version and page history before reverting.... PS: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/AndresHerutJaim 495656778774 (talk) 19:59, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

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Hello, you already know me from Israeli-Palestinian conflict arguments and I think you can help me with a new article I started working on (But didn't have too much time to sit on it casuse of things I had to do and my work in List of terrorist incidents article. Anyway, the article is the Al-Aqsa riots of 2015 who are technically still ongiong and I think you can help me since you have more then enough knowlege in the general subject. I will be happy if you"ll help me. I am probably going to work more on it in Sukkut when I"ll have more time. --Bolter21 21:21, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

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@Greyshark09: By posting this alert you became eligible to be sanctioned. Thank you. “WarKosign” 08:11, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

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Please avoid wholesale reverts as you did on Israel here, take care. Tanbircdq (talk) 12:55, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

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Kidnapping and murder of Mohammed Abu Khdeir

Mattel Battlestar Galactica game, circa 1978

Someone who likes BSG (MK II) cant be too 'bad' I own the series myself!
So I'll say in reference to this that I had WP:BLPNAME in mind. Don't you think that this is possibly an invasion of the involved the child's privacy? After all, the two guilty minors aren't named (or did I just miss them?) 220 of ^Borg 05:48, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

@220 of Borg: I'm not sure whether WP:BLPNAME applies. Indeed he is "discussed primarily in terms of a single event". However I don't think that the name "has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed". I couldn't find any "publication in secondary sources other than news media, such as scholarly journals or the work of recognized experts". I'll post a question on the article's own talk page to get more opinions.

So say we all. “WarKosign” 07:39, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Fr@kking aye! - 220 of ^Borg 08:48, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

← How about this for BSG 'retro' . I just added it here 220 of ^Borg 01:46, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Huh?

Did you actually read Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_monarchy)#Archaeological_record before invoking it as a reason for reverting? Since the experts are still arguing even about the existence of a place, what faith can be put in a precise depiction of its boundaries? Actually none. Bad revert. Zero^talk 09:11, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

@Zero0000: Since the experts are arguing, we can't choose position of some of them and repeat it in wikipedia voice. The caption could be "according to the bible and some archeology expects", but I think it's better to omit it altogether. “WarKosign” 09:14, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

You have it backwards. The caption at the moment presents the map as a factual statement. That fails WP:V, so for sure it is against policy. The description "according to the Bible" that I used is factual and does not express an opinion as to the correctness of the bible. Perhaps you are confusing my version with a version that was there a couple of edits earlier. Zero^talk 09:19, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

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Levant

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1RR

You crossed it. Wanted to give you the opportunity to self revert. Oncenawhile (talk) 12:57, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

@Oncenawhile: Thanks, I reverted. The letter is interesting, but note that he never calls himself Palestinian, only "of Palestine". Concluding from that that he considered himself Palestinian rather than an Arab is WP:OR. “WarKosign” 13:01, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

I will open a thread at the page. Oncenawhile (talk) 13:09, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Юзербокс

Just enjoying stalking your userboxes - your page is much more interesting than mine. By the way, you are being very humble with your English userbox - you seem to be much more of an en-5 than an en-3! Oncenawhile (talk) 13:52, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

@Oncenawhile: Thanks. Nothing prevents you from exposing a lot of irrelevant information about yourself. One of my goals in editing here was to improve my English, and I suppose I'm getting there. en-4 says "near native", and it seems too presumptuous. en-5 says "professional" which I understand as professional (copy)writer, which is certainly not my level. “WarKosign” 15:51, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

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Sorry (edit conflict)

I didn't mean to imply that you were being an idiot,[4] but our changes conflicted. Believe it or not, though, the proper English translation of "Terra Sancta sive Palestina" is not "The Holy Land or Israel", idiotic edits by IPs notwithstanding. -- Kendrick7^talk 17:52, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

@Kendrick7: No offense taken. I did not check whether the original was particularly correct, only that IP's edit was clearly blind removal of everything related to Israel. However, using the word "idiot" in a comment is never a good idea. “WarKosign” 18:44, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

You are correct, it's not a good idea. Still the endless edit warring — every single time I look — over the title of a map which was written plainly in black and white ~250 years ago never ends. I don't think I could be blamed for invoking WP:SPADE at this point. -- Kendrick7^talk 19:49, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

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Feel like expressing your opinion [Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents Here]?

It seems we both agree on the same subject, so.. yea.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:22, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

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Zionism: WP:30/500

You reverted my restoration of https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&diff=719228779&oldid=719080114, on the grounds of WP:30/500.

I have been editing WP since 2004, when I first heard of it. My first edit under a proper logged-in name was 2005. Your revert is technically correct, in that (apparently) I have only 385 edits in my history, not the requisite 500. However I have made a large number of minor edits (punctuation, grammar, etc.) without logging in. I accept that these don't count, because they can't be verified.

HOWEVER: The passage you restored makes a nonsense of the section in which it was placed, since it has nothing whatsoever to do with the toipic that section is concerned with. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ikalmar was correct to delete it; reverting his (and my) deletion of that passage is an obvious case of officious, bureaucratic silliness.

If you are permitted to edit under WP:30/500, then I request that you improve the article by deleting or moving this content, which is clearly in the wrong part of the article, instead of just reverting the efforts of other well-meaning editors and then wandering off. MrDemeanour (talk) 12:17, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

@MrDemeanour: As an experienced editor you must be familiar with WP:BRD. In my opinion the bold edit by Ikalmar didn't improve the article, this is why I reverted it. I didn't set the 30/500 rule, and in fact while it was discussed I was against it. Even without this rule, unreverting a revert of a bold edit without discussion violates WP:BRD. If it wasn't for the 30/500 rule I'd suggest you to discuss it on the article's talk page, but you are forbidden from writing there too. However, if there are other editors with more than 500 edits that agree with your edit they surely will notice it in the history and discuss it on the talk page or reapply the edit soon.

Inside the section only the first sentence deals with the (relevant) poem, the rest is about antisemitism in Germany. Perhaps the title of the section can be changed, but at the moment I don't know to what. The mismatch title certainly doesn't justify removing a whole paragraph of relevant material.“WarKosign” 12:47, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

@WarKosign: Evidently I am not an experienced editor; I did not know what WP:BRD was. It seems it (a) is "optional" (it says so in the first sentence of the article); and (b) is strongly contra-indicated when the circumstances could be controversial.

But having noted that, I'm going to step back from this discussion, and will refrain from touching the Zionism article. As you suggest, perhaps someone else will notice my remarks. Take care. MrDemeanour (talk) 19:22, 10 May 2016 (UTC)

Nominated for deletion

The recently created Israel Palestine conflict page is nominated for deletion in connection to the preceding community discussion. You are welcome to express your opinion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Israel Palestine conflict.GreyShark (dibra) 14:53, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

@GreyShark: Thanks for the ping. As with the original discussion I don't have a strong opinion, but I will watch the discussion and respond if I see something woefully wrong. “WarKosign” 15:00, 11 May 2016 (UTC)

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Template talk:Jewish and Israeli holidays

Hi. I'm sorry I didn't see your question sooner. I promise not to close anything until you've had a chance to react.

User:Chesdovi made this change to the template, which effectively did three things:

• Changed the top title from "Jewish and Israeli" to "Jewish"
• Changed the title on the section of the "traditional" holidays to call them "Torah-based or rabbinically mandated" holidays
• Separated out "Holocaust memorials" from the rest of the State of Israel holidays, placed it on a separate line, and added the UK's Holocaust Memorial Day to the line.

I reverted the first point based on the longstanding agreement as to what collection of days was to be included on the template. (Discussions available on the talk page.) I also reverted the second—though it is technically accurate—as being an unnecessary detail in a nav template. I left the third in place for now, correcting the link to the UK memorial day. That's the "current" version.

I opened talk page discussions on all these points. The first two I grouped as § Titles and subtitles, and I think that bit is pretty straightforward.

The third point is in § Holocaust memorials. At first, I didn't write that bit as clearly as I should have; I have cleaned it up. If I may summarize: Chesdovi has long felt that a variety of Holocaust Memorial Days should be included on the template. Prior consensus (§ Inclusion of Holocaust Memorial Days) has been not to include them:

While Jews are often involved in observances on such days, the observances themselves are not specifically Jewish or Israeli, and aren't even limited to Jewish Holocaust victims. That may be (and is) entirely appropriate, but those are reasons that those observances don't really fit on this template.

So that's what the discussions are about. I've now proposed a conclusion over there. I'd welcome your input. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:49, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

Just to clarify: The bit about "months" was an edit of about four months ago from a user who felt that Heshvan had to be listed as Marheshvan (the "real" name), and that the month order had to start with Nisan (the first month in Torah texts). I only mentioned it in the current talk because it technically interrupted the stability of the template. However, because that user was a sock of a banned user, that interruption can be disregarded. That subject is not on the table now. StevenJ81 (talk) 21:49, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

@StevenJ81: Thanks for detailed explanation. Your revert seems reasonable, I don't have a strong opinion. Perhaps it would be best to paste it on the template's talk page, and have a formal RfC, to bring some more participation. “WarKosign” 06:31, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

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There's an AfD about a topic related to you

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hallel Yaffa Ariel--Bolter21 (talk to me) 18:36, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

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prior accounts

Did you have a named account prior to registering this one or use another one after registering this one? nableezy - 17:23, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

@Nableezy: No I did not, thanks for asking. How about you ? “WarKosign” 19:40, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

No. It just seems curious, your very first edit was to add popus to your monobook? A handful of edits after that, and then a five year absence. Its odd for that pattern to be the first named account of a person. Whatever, thanks for answering, Ill look at it more myself. nableezy - 21:05, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

@Nableezy: Indeed it looks curios. If you have any suspicion you are welcome to contact WP:SPI. It's not up to me to prove a negative, even though I tried once. I can try to satisfy your curiosity, however: I created this account so I could use a preview-on-hover script while reading wikipedia and then forgot about it when I re-installed my computer. Once Operation Protective Edge began I wanted to fix anti-Israel bias on some semi-protected page, so I dusted the old account off. “WarKosign” 09:52, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

ok, fair enough, thanks for explaining. nableezy - 15:40, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

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Help needed with Zeek article

Hi WarKosign I have been following your edits as of late as a token of excellence I would to ask for your assistance improving Zeek Wikipedia article. I will be honest and come forward that I have a stated COI with the company but I feel the information presented in the article is notable. Any input from you regarding this matter would be amazing. Thanks, Eddard 'Ned' Stark (talk) 20:38, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

@Eddard 'Ned' Stark: Hi Ned, what kind of help do you need with Zeek ? It would be best to start a discussion at Zeek's talk page to have more people involved. “WarKosign” 08:53, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

At the moment the article is scheduled for deletion. I seek help improving the article with better sourcing, copywriting and more notable information in general. Please have a look at the Zeek, if you believe the article passes Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline please state so in the article entry. Eddard 'Ned' Stark (talk) 18:00, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Does not help beginners users

So what are you silent? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gl dili (talk • contribs) 12:35, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

@Gl dili: I have no preference regarding Erdogan's facial expression. It could be others have the same reason for not responding. You can be bold, change the picture and see how people react. “WarKosign” 13:19, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Read attention, page Erdogan not can be edit. Page is locked. You promised to help me edit it Gl dili (talk) 13:21, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

@Gl dili: I did not promise anything. I wrote that if you suggested a better photo (which you did) and other editors agreed with you (so far nobody did), that it would be used (by someone who cares enough to make the edit). “WarKosign” 13:27, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

You have right to edit? And if Wikipedia, free encyclopedia why not everyone can edit articles? Gl dili (talk) 13:33, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

@Gl dili: See WP:PROTECT. “WarKosign” 13:53, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

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Which edit is the POV edit?

Regarding this edit. I think that the Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries is correct when it says that "The reasons for the exodus included push factors, such as persecution, antisemitism, political instability, poverty and expulsion, together with pull factors, such as the desire to fulfill Zionist yearnings or find a better economic status and a secure home in Europe or the Americas." The edit you undid was very neutral, not going into the reasons at all, while the version you reverted to is less neutral. Please consider this. Debresser (talk) 13:18, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

@Debresser: Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries is about "departure, flight, expulsion, evacuation and migration". Before the edit I reverted, the link on Levant said "expelled", after the edit it said "emigrated". Emigration is voluntary, expulsion is forced. Perhaps the link can be modified to represent content of the exodus article better, I do not consider this edit an improvement. “WarKosign” 13:26, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

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ArbCom Elections 2016: Voting now open!

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Holy Land rvt

Hi WarKosign – thank you for your time to revert my edit. I am aware of WP:ARBPIAINTRO, thank you for reminding me, I appreciate it. I don't believe there was any reason for you to revert my edit. According to Christianity, Jesus is the Jewish Messiah of the Hebrew Bible (Christian Old Testament), hence the link to Messiah in Judaism. There are many other articles, regarding Jesus as the Messiah, which link to Messiah in Judaism. There is no need for "Christians regard as the Savior or Messiah" – the Messiah is the savior, so no need to repeat that twice, in my humble opinion. Anyway, it's not that big of a deal, I am just confused why it was reverted. You state that " unbased, christian messiah and jewish messiah are different things" However, it is not "unbased" as you described. Again, Jesus is believed to be the Jewish messiah. See Christ (title), that's why I linked it to the Messiah in Judaism link. I am fine with adding [[Christ (title)|Jewish Messiah]] instead. Thank you very much for your time in improving Wikipedia. Cheers, CookieMonster755 𝚨-𝛀 23:50, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

@CookieMonster755: Thanks for making your WP:GF edits and taking your time to discuss the revert. I think it's best to have this discussion on the article's talk page, so more people can participate. Please re-post your comment there, I'll re-post my reply and we'll see if any other editors agree with either of us.

There is an inherent difference between the Christian and Jewish believes regarding the messiah - whether he came already. This means that while Christian believe that Jesus fulfilled the Jewish prophecy of a messiah, they do not believe that he was the Jewish Messiah, since Jewish Messiah hasn't arrived yet. They do believe that he was *a* Messiah, which is exactly what the link said before your changes. Your second offer is more correct but it introduces an WP:EASTEREGG by creating a link one (or at least I) wouldn't expect according to visible text. “WarKosign” 20:21, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

No need to discuss on the talk page, I agree with you WarKosign and see why it should be linked to Christ (title) and not Messiah in Judaism. And thank you for taking the time to fix my mistake and explain policy and the reason for it. Cheers, friend! CookieMonster755 𝚨-𝛀 01:13, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

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Fixuture edit in Israel

Hello. I wanted to let you know that Fixuture reinstated an extremely cherry-picking POV paragraph that was rejected in February, despite there was no consensus for it, not then, not recently.--Thrubeingcool13 (talk) 02:38, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

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I noticed you program in JavaScript...

The JavaScript WikiProject is now up and running. We organize and develop JavaScript articles, navigation aids, and user scripts.

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Hope to see you there! The Transhumanist 15:08, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

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Problematic unsourced edit in PFLP

Could you please revert this unsourced edit? Source does not mention Israel, France, Russia, China or even the UK. Thanks.--186.125.1.85 (talk) 00:50, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

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BDS Movement

Greetings. Please take a few minutes to address the concerns I have raised with the multiple references to "international law" at Talk:Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions. Editors are expected to listen, respond, and cooperate once a discussion had started, rather than simply reverting changes. Thank you. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 09:21, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

@Sangdeboeuf: See WP:BRD. You made a bold edit, I reverted it, now we are discussing. Consensus is achieved during the discussion, and as long as your edit does not have consensus it shouldn't be in the article. Please do not edit against the exiting consensus. “WarKosign” 12:57, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

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State of Palestine Geography

Hello...I was wondering what exactly your grounds were for reverting my edit on State of Palestine regarding geography, apart from your statement about the State claiming territory. I certainly agree with you on that point, but by simply changing the edit from "The State of Palestine is located" to "The area claimed by the State of Palestine is located", it would allow the statement to be in full agreement with the status of Palestine as a de jure state. Considering the section is empty, and quite glaringly so, at the very least removing the first line would be superior to a complete lack of content apart from linking to another article. With regards to the content being unsourced, I do not agree - my edit included no specific statistics that would require reference. Simply stating countries/geographic area lying in cardinal directions is normally acceptable: a) Canada, b) France, and c) Germany, among many others. If I were to state specifics such as "The area claimed by the State of Palestine is 75km across, etc., I would understand the need for sourcing, but cardinal directions are some of the simplest geographic references possible, determinable simply from a map. I have no vested interest in any part of this region, but I do want to see the articles advanced in quality. Cheers. "I'd rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - George S. Patton :: markus1423 (talk) 18:24, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

@Markus1423: Thanks for reaching out to discuss, I wish you did it before re-instating your edit, per WP:BRD the proper form is to reach consensus before restoring a reverted edit. Also I think a better place to discuss it would be on the article's talk page, where more people would be able to participate. I suggest you copy your message above (or a write a new one) there, and I'll re-respond there.

To the point, State of Palestine is a virtual entity. It makes vague claims about territories that are sometimes interpreted as meaning Palestinian Territories, Palestine (region), less or maybe more than either. Discussing geography of SoP can't be correct, it can only mislead the reader into thinking that SoP has some territory and that someone actually knows that this territory is. For the same reason Geography of the State of Palestine is incorrectly named - if you look in the article, all the sources speak about Gaza, West Bank, or Palestinian Territories - no source actually links State of Palestine with geography. I intent to suggest renaming that article. “WarKosign” 20:09, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

@WarKosign: I didn't reinstate my edit, I brought it up with you first as the reverter, which technically is part of WP:BRD. I agree that this should be on the talk page as a discussion - I originally wanted to bring it to your intention first to understand what occured in greater detail than the edit summary. Thanks for reminding me about the proper procedure :)

Secondly, I think the lead section of the article quite explicitly states the area being described - "is a de jure sovereign state in the Middle East, claiming the West Bank (bordering Israel and Jordan) and Gaza Strip (bordering Israel and Egypt)"

I will elaborate on my view of this, of course, in the actual discussion. I have also found one of such proposals about merging together some of the related entities with which you were involved Talk:State_of_Palestine/Archive_12#RFC:_Restructuring_Proposal, but this article will likely exist indefinitely with others being merged into it, so I do believe this section should at least include some details. Cheers once again and thanks for the response! "I'd rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - George S. Patton :: markus1423 (talk) 21:01, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

@Markus1423: My mistake. Somehow it appeared to me that you restored exactly the same edit and only then wrote this message above. Apparently I was looking at the wrong part of the page's history. My "I wish" above should be "I'm glad". I'll respond to the point on the article's talk page. “WarKosign” 07:42, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

@WarKosign: Just wanted to let you know that I put in a request for a third opinion on this, considering that on the talk page most editors are unwilling to look extensively into this...wanted to give you a head's up in advance and hoping we can work this out...although considering how controversial this is, may need to put in a request for comment. Cheers "I'd rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me" - George S. Patton :: markus1423 (talk) 15:28, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

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unproductive

This is a response that your non policy based restoration without adequate sourcing is not likely to be productive. We have rules in place with the hope that editors who edit in this area will be familiar with our policies. This type of use of primary source is not appropriate for an article that on the whole is written in an essay like tone. If there is no other source that discusses this besides a primary source study it WILL (most likely) be removed under our policies either now, or after a community discussion. Seraphim System ^(talk) 09:53, 5 October 2017 (UTC) Seraphim System ^(talk) 09:53, 5 October 2017 (UTC) (my point being that trolling reverts this way or agf making hasty reverts without reading the relevant policies ends up wasting everyone's time - I asked for a secondary source. If you can't read and understand edit summaries, maybe this is not the ideal hobby for you.)

@Seraphim System: What's unproductive is removing sourced information for superfluous reasons.

Pleace index is published by Tel Aviv University. Per WP:RS, "academic and peer-reviewed publications are usually the most reliable sources". It's trivial to find secondary sources on the same research such as this but it's utterly pointless and less reliable that the original source. :If indeed you believe such a citation would improve the article you could find it yourself or at least use the <cn> tag. Since you made no such attempt and did not bother discussing your issues with the citation on the article page this looks like a case of WP:IDL. “WarKosign” 11:29, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

They can still be pritmary, which it is for this claim. You can ask at RS/N for more input. If it is trivial please just add the sources next time. While it may be "less reliable" in your opinion, Wiki policy strongly prefers secondary sources. The fact that the material is improperly cited is sufficient justification for removal.

The best way to avoid this is to make sure your citations comply with Wiki policy. Seraphim System (talk) 11:35, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

I think it is not a very good article. I will probably just add a template. Now, if you'll excuse me, I really want to get back to my self-imposed hiatus. I feel myself getting mired in the quicksand again... I just checked and the page has 1,659 monthly views. I could probably get more people to watch me livestream Hearthstone while dressed like a Zombie. Honestly, there are things I enjoy about Wikipedia and editors I enjoy working with, but experiences like this one where someone restores incorrectly cited content and then instead of thanking me for taking the time to explain to them says that it is "Trivial" and accuses me of WP:IDL - it is actually bad for Wikipedia and Wikipedia will only keep declining as long as it is run this way. That is the unfortunate truth and it's not my job to "fix" it.

I also don't understand the Wiki battleground mentality. I understand editors who get upset because they are genuinely trying to improve scholarly content and quality (this includes citations) but Wikipedia is not even a good vehicle for this kind "Pro-State" message. It would be more effective to find a good looking guy, dress him in a "Stand With Us" shirt and have him talk about hair products while livestreaming himself playing Hearthstone, because there is nothing that can be said here that will help and Wiki's target audience aren't morons. Seraphim System ^(talk) 12:09, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

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OR on Levant?

I added some information on the current use of "Levantine archaeology" etc. sourced to Google ngrams data. Now, I agree that ngrams data is not a fully WP:RS, however it's a start. You removed my additions completely with the comment "WP:OR", rather than say adding a Better Source template. This seems unnecessarily aggressive. I have now added some much stronger sources. --Macrakis (talk) 23:10, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

@Macrakis: Perhaps I overreacted, but using google as source is worse than not providing any source at all, it indicates original research and complete lack of understanding of how sourcing works. Now it seems like you went to the other extreme. “WarKosign” 12:18, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

I was using Google to demonstrate that a term was in current use. In many ways, it is more reliable than a dictionary for that. I'll move to Talk:Levant for further substantive discussion.

As for oversourcing, this sort of claim (that some term is becoming more or less widely used) is fairly subjective, so multiple sources for it are helpful, especially since many WPians are unaware of the modern usage of the term "Levant"; anyway, you gave three dictionary sources for the claim that the term is "progressively falling" in usage (which actually none of them support). It's like the rich sourcing I provided for Whipped cream#History and Whipped cream#Crème Chantilly, necessary because many people believe strongly and incorrectly that whipped cream was invented by Vatel (no) in France (no) in the mid-17th century (no) and that Chantilly must contain sugar (no).

By the way, I've been on WP for many many years and have over 30k edits, many of them improving sourcing, so I'm pretty familiar with how it works. I'm also familiar with WP:AGF and other ways to challenge undersourced or badly sourced content (, , etc.). --Macrakis (talk) 16:27, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

@Macrakis: Using google search to determine whether a term is in use is a very obvious case of original research. I never assumed bad faith on your part, but OR does not belong in the article, it is trivial to re-add the content one proper sources have been provided. “WarKosign” 15:49, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Not sure why Google search or Google ngrams count as OR for things like whether a term is in current use, the relative commonness of different spellings, etc. Of course, like any source, they're not perfect.

By the way, the OED's Frequency Band information (see domain photos.app.goo.gl slash MXhDGL2JAMVDSQOB2 -- WP doesn't let me include the link) is "derived primarily from version 2 of the Google Books Ngrams data", with additional processing. "Levant" is in "Frequency Band 3": "These words are not commonly found in general text types like novels and newspapers, but at the same they are not overly opaque or obscure. Nouns include ebullition and merengue, and examples of adjectives are amortizable, prelapsarian, contumacious, agglutinative, quantized, argentiferous...". Unfortunately, neither the OED nor Ngrams lists frequencies for different uses of a word.

If you're assuming good faith, then you should use () or whatever. --Macrakis (talk) 19:55, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

@Macrakis: With all due respect the your edit count it seems like you have a profound misunderstanding of the WP:OR policy. Ngrams count is a valid research tool. A researcher might use it to draw a conclusion that certain term is or isn't in current popular use. A wikipedia editor is not a researcher. An editor must cite research done by someone else and published by an acceptable source, not to draw their own original conclusions. See here. “WarKosign” 07:14, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree that ngrams is a lower-quality source than an article in a reputable journal, which is why it would be appropriate to tag it with . That is, this sounds like a plausible claim, supported by a suggestive non-RS source, but please find a better source. --Macrakis (talk) 18:24, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

By the way, I see no RS for "While the usage of the term 'Levant' in academia has been restricted to the fields of archeology and literature". --Macrakis (talk) 19:09, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

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ArbCom 2017 election voter message

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David Grun

David Ben-Gurion was born as "Dawid", just a correct Polish spelling. I think a proper spelling, as per his birth documents should be kept despite later spelling modification to "David." What do you think? GizzyCatBella (talk) 17:07, 24 March 2018 (UTC) Accurately its was spelled - Dawid Grün GizzyCatBella (talk) 17:08, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

@GizzyCatBella: Perhaps you are right, but let's discuss it on the article's own talk page where more people with better understanding can participate. “WarKosign” 19:06, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

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A soft note

Your edit summary reads "rv POV push..." and it's not a constructive behavior. I suggest you avoid using such words in your future communications. --Mhhossein ^talk 18:24, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

@Mhhossein: Perhaps I should've been more civil in the summary, but it is factually correct. I reverted an edit that re-instated a POV-prone statement that you did while there is no obvious consensus to include it while there is an ongoing discussion (a.k.a 'pushed'). My comment wasn't constructive, but so wasn't your edit. You should follow WP:BRD and let the consensus determine whether this statement is to be included rather than edit-war over it. “WarKosign” 04:26, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

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Technicality

In improving my edit today you in turn appear to have misconstrued the sourced in writing: '45 IDF soldiers were killed by Gazan attacks over the same period.' If you click on the 45 you will see that those soldiers were killed while in combat within Gaza, as a result not of attacks but of Gazan soldiers shooting back at people shooting at them in their backyard. In standard military reportage one does not define a firefight as an 'attack' by one side. One speaks of attack and counterattack etc., to get the precise dynamics of the respective military manoeuvres right. Won't make an issue of it on that page, but I would appreciate you tinkering to better reflect B'tselem's striving for neutral reports. Nishidani (talk) 21:33, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

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2018 Gaza border protests

Hi WarKosign, since I see you're quite involved with military conflicts, please can I have your opinion on this diff? Is it true that "Prior background" is in violation of WP:OR as "sources that are directly related to the topic of the article" must not be included? Is this the norm in other military articles where "Prior background" is required? Waddie96 (talk) 08:16, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

@Waddie96: the relevant policy is WP:SYN, we are not supposed to bring what we consider connected to the subject unless there are sources supporting this connection. One needs to go over sources for each paragraph say for sure whether it's connected. “WarKosign” 10:33, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

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Blind reverts

Please refrain from making unexplained blind reverts as you did here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 07:10, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

@Volunteer Marek: My bad, somehow the comment I thought I added got lost. Added it now on a dummy edit. “WarKosign” 08:23, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

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Warning

Hello, WarKosign. I want to let you know that your revert at American Muslims for Palestine is (in my opinion) a violation of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Index/Palestine-Israel articles. If I report you, that could lead to sanctions. However, frankly, that is not the route I want to take. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you were not aware. I also should let you know that because I have officially warned you, now I can file for sanctions. You sound like an experienced editor who just made a mistake. Can you please revert from it? Wish you the best in your way forward, despite our disagreements.

Here are the WP arbitration policies with the article. These are the current arbitration remedies applicable to any pages and edits that could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict (pages in the "conflict area"):

• 500/30 protection – editors to pages in the conflict area must be logged-in users with at least 500 edits and 30 days tenure, with certain exceptions as provided below.
• 1RR – subject to the normal exceptions, editors may not make more than one revert (as defined in WP:3RR) per page in the conflict area per 24 hours. In addition, if an edit is reverted by another editor, the original editor must not restore it within 24 hours of the revert.
• Discretionary sanctions – administrators may impose sanctions on disruptive editors and apply general restrictions on specific pages in the conflict area in accordance with the discretionary sanctions procedure. Page restrictions imposed under discretionary sanctions are explained in edit notices for the affected pages.

Gobulls (talk) 00:43, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

WarKosign, I just reviewed some of your previous edits, and I am not so sure that you didn't know. In fact, the evidence seems to point towards the contrary. Gobulls (talk) 00:51, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

@Gobulls: I'm quite aware of the WP:ACDS in the I-P area, and I'm glad that you took the time to review the rules. Can you be specific in which rule you think I've broken ?

In fact, you seem to be in violation of 500/30 - your edit count is about 600, and looks like vast majority of your recent edits were on an article in the I/P area that you weren't supposed to be editing at the time, so they don't count. Some editors revert edits by those under 500 on sight blindly; I personally think it's a stupid rule so I'm not acting on it.

Rules that I do value are pillars of wikipedia, specifically WP:NPOV, WP:VER and WP:CIV.

Articles should be written from neutral point of view. It's OK to report that some people describe AMP as a grassroots movement and that they believe in Palestinians right of return, but one cannot say in wikipedia voice that it IS a grassroots movement and that Palestinians have the right of return, just as one can't say in WP voice that AMP is an antisemitic propaganda arm of the Hamas. Almost all the sources are biased one way or the other and neutral POV is achieved by balancing the sources. You edits systematically bias the article in one very particular direction and it is unacceptable. Facts written in wikipedia voice must be beyond any doubt or opinion and supported by multiple sources - neutral or with very different opinions. For example, nobody can argue that AMP is a US-based organization.

Statements in the article are supposed to be supported by sources. You add sources, but they (at least those online that I can check) often do not support the statements that you attached them to. This Haaretz article says very little about AMP, only weak support to the fact that it supports BDS - and yet you used it like one of two sources for the whole lead. I would like to see a quote from the other source that actually supports everything else.

Another very important pillar is civility - treating other editors with respect and assuming good will. You do not WP:OWN this article, and not every edit that you disagree with is vandalism. Even if an editor is wrong, an edit made in good faith should be respected. Many of the edits that you made were good in my opinion, but you began your series of edit by reverting everything 1l2l3k and I did, so I had no choice but to revert all your good edits with the bad one. Please follow WP:BRD. If you want something changed in an article try getting consensus for it on the talk page first. If you can't achieve a consensus for your change on the talk page, you won't get it into the article by edit-warring, it will only get you banned. “WarKosign” 08:16, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

The article has a quote by Asaf Romirowsky that doesn't exist. The source never says that.

The article makes no mention that AMP says in its website that it doesn't support the one-state solution or the two state solution. It just accuses the organization of supporting the one-state solution which is frustrating.

Your version of the article is using (unnecessarily) ADL's self-published sources. There is no need to do that.

"The organization is also accused of rising out from Muslim Brotherhood in the United States and having an Islamist view on the Israeli–Palestinian peace process." There is no quotations in this line. It just says it in a Wikipedia voice, which is unnecessary and undermines the article. Gobulls (talk) 16:10, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

You took out a well sourced statement from the article. "During the 2017 Temple Mount crisis, AMP organized a protest "Aqsa Under Attack" in front of the Israeli embassy in Washington D.C." There was no need to do that. I don't know why you would.

AMP has rejected these accusations as Islamophobic and said it "typically ignores these smear campaigns because they’re aimed, in part, to detract us from our work". I don't know why you would just take out a statement that is well-sourced. Gobulls (talk) 16:15, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

"American grassroots activist advocacy group that supports Palestinian right of return and BDS" That is not me saying it. That is a critic (who is sourced) describing AMP. Read it for yourself "Crossing Boundaries in the Americas, Vietnam, and the Middle East A Memoir" page 259. I placed the quote from the book here for you to read yourself "In contrast, Al Awda and the much newer American Muslims for Palestine, are both smaller, activist, grassroots organizations, that focus on supporting Palestinian refugees right of return" Gobulls (talk) 16:22, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

@Gobulls: please re-post these issues at the article's talk page and we'll discuss them there so other editors can pitch in. “WarKosign” 17:39, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

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Please comment on Talk:Century

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Doug Weller talk 13:44, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: I believe I gave a DS alert to someone a month or two ago so I was considered alerted for a few more months, but thanks anyway :) “WarKosign” 20:50, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Sorry, if I'd known that I wouldn't have given you the alert. Doug Weller talk 20:52, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

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That edit at Talk:BDS

Please don't restore it. It's clearly inappropriate and although Sir Joseph wasn't topic banned at the time he is now, for edits similar to that one. Also, if you restore it you are effectively endorsing it, which I doubt you want to do. Doug Weller talk 12:58, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

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NOTICE!

I would like to inform you on a general prohibition on editing on the Arab israeli conflict for non experienced editors. I have noticed that you have a profound interest in Israeli causes on Wikipedia and you happen to come from Israel as stated on your talk page. While all viewpoints are welcome, there is a fine line between sharing yours and enforcing a POV ( for which Arabs and some other like to refer derogatorily to as hasbara propaganda). However, if you continue to edit the Asia country page or any other pages in a POV manner, you may face serious consequences, backlash, and loss of good faith from the wiki community in the long or short term.

Lo meiin (talk) 14:27, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

@Lo meiin: I'm glad that you're beginning to gasp the behavior expected from an editor in the I/P area. Now you need to start applying this newly gained understanding. “WarKosign” 17:54, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

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