Talk:OpenIndiana

This article was nominated for deletion on 15 September 2010 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

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Speedy deletion challenge

The OpenIndiana project is a community-based continuation of the cancelled OpenSolaris project. As a subject, it has the same right of existence as OpenSolaris. In fact, its right of existence is derived from that of the OpenSolaris article. -- BenTels (talk) 15:35, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In other words, you can delete the article now -- but that just means someone will have to recreate it later. -- BenTels (talk) 15:41, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, it's the second Illumos-based distro (afaik), and the first "from scratch" as SchilliX is formerly a distro based on the Sun trees. Being the first distro created solely for the Illumos codebase is surely notable, at least if MCC Interim Linux is. At this moment, their IRC channel on freenode has almost 200 people, a notable percentage of which are former and current Sun Microsystems and Oracle Corporation employees. Perhaps someone can give the article some love, to bring it up to at least the standards of the aforementioned MCC article. -- Lewellyn ^talk 19:54, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the speedy deletion tag. It cited A7 of WP:SPEEDY, which states: "This criterion applies only to articles about web content and to articles about people, organizations, and individual animals themselves, not to articles about their books, albums, software, or other creative works." This is undeniably an article about software, and therefore is not subject to this criterion. -- Lewellyn ^talk 20:47, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, while I recognize that there is not much content on this incubating project right now, one might expect the content to increase with the progress of the project. -- BenTels (talk) 15:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should wait for a few days, and in the meanwhile update the article based on the outcome of today's announcement, when it becomes known. When the facts are clear, and correctly written up, then a rational decision can be made. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiger99 (talk • contribs) 19:42, 14 September 2010

And, it clearly does not fit the criteria for deletion. The article is NOT about an organisation, which could be eligible under the criteria, it is about a PROJECT, as is clearly stated.

I would suggest that this extremely rapid request for deletion is the sort of behaviour that gives Wikipedia a bad name, and is motivated by something other than the desire to follow Wikipedia policy. --

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tiger99 (talk • contribs) 19:59, 14 September 2010

With respect to frequent Wikipedia editors, the OpenIndiana project is significant to the community using Solaris / ZFS technology. It is as much about the clash of Enterprise &/close source and Cloud& open source computing paradigms as it is about a new OS distribution in its own right. On this occasion, lack of history and use of Wikipedia is part of industry change is entirely appropriate. Wiki's are medium that is borne of open source /open community. Proposing to mute a new voices that enabled wiki technology / management approaches in the first place is frankly startling and completely inappropriate. This page should not be deleted. Haynesp (talk) 12:30, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've uploaded a screenshot from openindiana installer to german wikipedia entry, btw same discussion there :D. Please feel free to use it here. dreh23 (german wikipedia) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.11.106.38 (talk) 19:01, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Early deletion

It seems the early deletion messup belongs to the seventees or somewhere where things didn't happen too quickly. Deleting this article is not a good idea Rkarlsba (talk) 19:07, 18 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It would be ridiculous to delete this article, on a new project that is plainly notable. Fix it up if you think it's wrong. Webmink (talk) 16:43, 19 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

External links

I've taken the initiative to start an External Links section. I don't currently have the time to work on this article much, but I'll try to drop a few URLs into the external links which another editor can then use for references. Distribution of effort is a better use of effort, plus it allows interested readers to find out more before the article has been properly updated. -- Lewellyn ^talk 22:41, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Logo for the project/page

I went on the #openindiana IRC channel today to ask about the license status of the project logo. The project has not yet determined the licensing status of that logo and can currently only offer it under fair use. Therefore I have not uploaded it to commons just yet. Good news though is that the logo licensing is now on their todo list. -- BenTels (talk) 21:41, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Removed "needs image", since image now appears on page Cypher3c (talk)

illumos

Is illumos a kernel or an entire operating system? Seems like illumos is the name of the kernel and OpenIndiana would be an Illumos distribution' analog to a Linux distribution. Will there be Debian GNU/illumos next to Debian GNU/kFreeBSD? ScotXW (talk) 17:07, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

http://openindiana.org/ "OpenIndiana is a robust enterprise operating system, based on the illumos kernel" ScotXW (talk) 17:10, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Screenshots removed

Recently some screenshot thumbnails were added and then removed under WP:NOTGUIDE. Please explain these deletions, as there is no clear relationship between the screenshots and WP:NOTGUIDE. Huihermit (talk) 15:09, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple screenshots of command line interface add no value to an encyclopedia entry, and are more appropriate to an instruction manual or textbook. Wikipedia is neither of those, per WP:NOTGUIDE Scr★pIron^IV 15:14, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is just your personal opinion. For those who use a command line interface regularly, they do indeed illustrate something. Your characterization of them as useful for a textbook or instruction manual has nothing to do with Wikipedia guidelines, and is entirely your own opinion. They are certainly illustrative of the most basic mode of the operating system, and certainly relevant to the article. Huihermit (talk) 15:17, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And that is equally "your personal opinion" - Per WP:BRD we now seek consensus. Perhaps you could start an RfC instead of edit-warring. Scr★pIron^IV 15:20, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A thumbnail image illustrating the main operating system interface has nothing to do with an instruction manual. Your claims are completely bogus and you are abusing the WP editorial process by making nonsense claims about guidelines that have nothing to do with this. Huihermit (talk) 15:25, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, there is nothing bogus about it at all. This is an encyclopedia, not an instruction manual. We include a description of the tool, a logo, and other information of interest to everyday readers. Such minutiae is inappropriate to the project. Scr★pIron^IV 15:32, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

An encyclopedia article can include screenshots of software and this is common all throughout Wikipedia. Many other articles include screenshots of software even if it is run in the command line. Your exclusion of this class of software is ludicrous and completely unreasonable. There is no clear connection at all to WP:NOTGUIDE, and you appear to simply dislike it for personal reasons. Please remember that "BRD is not a valid excuse for reverting good-faith efforts to improve a page simply because you don't like the changes." Huihermit (talk) 15:36, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So, start an RfC if you feel so strongly about it. Find out what the community has to say. Scr★pIron^IV 15:42, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer if you followed Wikipedia guidelines and the BRD editorial process rather than deleting quality content just because you don't like it. If you are going to revert these additions, then you need to give a substantial reason by citing WP guidelines. The screenshots are plainly illustrative rather than instructional, as are their captions. WP:NOTGUIDE is about instructional materials, not about GUI windows being shinier than consoles. Huihermit (talk) 15:51, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have, but you are suffering from a case of WP:IDHT - so the next step is an RfC. You have an opinion, and believe that policy favors it. I have a different interpretation of policy, which favors my own opinion. So, it is time for other eyes. Scr★pIron^IV 15:57, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Screenshots of software running in console mode?

NAC:Consensus is that the screen shots of the software do not violate WP:NOTGUIDE and do not have to be deleted for that reason. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:51, 28 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Do screenshots of software running in console mode violate WP:NOTGUIDE? Huihermit (talk) 16:30, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely- but this RfC is far too narrowly worded, to maximize the proposer's contention that value is added by multiple command line screen shots to this article. There are multiple issues with entering technical minutiae to pages, and WP:NOTGUIDE is just a start. But, relevant from WP:NOTGUIDE:

1) "Scientific journals and research papers. A Wikipedia article should not be presented on the assumption that the reader is well versed in the topic's field."

2) "Textbooks and annotated texts. Wikipedia is an encyclopedic reference, not a textbook."

3) "Internet guides. Wikipedia articles should not exist only to describe the nature, appearance or services a website offers, but should also describe the site in an encyclopedic manner" - not specific to software, but closely related.

From earlier in WP:NOT under Encyclopedic content:

4) "Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful. An encyclopedia article should not be a complete exposition of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject."

From the repository of media section:

5) "Photographs or media files with no accompanying text. If you are interested in presenting a picture, please provide an encyclopedic context, or consider adding it to Wikimedia Commons."

I could go on, but the images of white text on a black screen offer nothing in the way of encyclopedic value. Scr★pIron^IV 20:49, 23 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm asking for another person's opinion, not your's, and my request follows RfC guidelines. It's obvious that you are throwing up every irrelevant point from WP:GUIDE even though none of it has to do with console interfaces or thumbnails. The images clearly illustrate the most basic mode of the software, which is relevant and useful for the article. Huihermit (talk) 01:22, 24 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am responding to your RfC. Every interested editor has the right of response. Scr★pIron^IV 13:03, 26 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No violation. The screenshots improve the reader's understanding of what OpenIndiana is like. They are interesting to a reader like me, who has used Unix but has no intention of ever using OpenIndiana and certainly does not want an instruction manual. I see nothing in the extensive quotations from WP:NOTGUIDE above that forbids them. I find that the article on Carpentry has an image showing carpentry tools, and Kitchen has several pictures showing cooking pots. However, the screen shot of a man page should be omitted. Seen as a screen full of text it is of no interest; and seen as instruction on how to use the zfs command it is indeed in violation of WP:NOTGUIDE. Maproom (talk) 08:09, 31 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No violation per se, but the concept of running in console mode is by no means unique to OpenIndiana, it is enough to state that it allows software powerfully running in console mode. Then link to a general article about Command-line interface or maybe its standard shell, be it bash, zsh or whatever. The interested reader can then click his way and we avoid duplication of information. AadaamS (talk) 06:54, 2 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No violation since there is no guide accompanying these screenshots but as illustrations they are repetitive and serve no purpose. One screen of the console, preferably with more typical content than usage screen of some utility, can be useful. “WarKosign ” 07:43, 12 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

ScrapIronIV editing against consensus

User:ScrapIronIV, I would like to remind you that the RfC was not on the subject of the "value" of the images. It was specifically about your claims that the thumbnails violated WP:NOGUIDE (as you repeatedly insisted that they did). All other editors unanimously agreed with me that there was no violation. Three of the five editors involved further said that the thumbnails were indeed useful. Consider the views expressed by User:Maproom, who stated: The screenshots improve the reader's understanding of what OpenIndiana is like. They are interesting to a reader like me, who has used Unix but has no intention of ever using OpenIndiana and certainly does not want an instruction manual. I see nothing in the extensive quotations from WP:NOTGUIDE above that forbids them. User:WarKosign as well: One screen of the console, preferably with more typical content than usage screen of some utility, can be useful. Three-fifths of the editors involved have clearly stated that having at least one such thumbnail is useful. Since some editors clearly have this opinion, it follows that some readers would also find such a thumbnail to be helpful. Just because you personally dislike these images does not mean that other readers would not appreciate them and find them helpful. You should be working towards consensus with other editors rather than bullying your way through the editing process. Huihermit (talk) 05:24, 1 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@ScrapIronIV: Please read WP:TPO and stop removing Huihermit's comment. “WarKosign ” 14:10, 9 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@WarKosign: This post is blatantly false, and a personal attack Scr★pIron^IV 13:52, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@ScrapIronIV: I don't know if it's false or not, but I don't see anything that can be called a personal attack. “WarKosign ” 17:04, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Being called a bully, and accused of editing against consensus when when none had yet been established is absolutely an attack. I have made a total of four edits to this article, one prior to this editor's addition. Three of which involved this editor's contributions and spanned a month, two of which were to revert to the status quo while discussion was ongoing. That's not bullying, and this new discussion started a week after I had made any contributions to this article is nothing more than grave-dancing. Scr★pIron^IV 18:21, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The other editors had clearly voiced their opinions and the results of the RfC had been obvious for several weeks. You continued to delete these materials despite the other editors saying that there was no violation, and that limited use of these thumbnails was useful and appropriate. Even if you dislike my characterizations, that does not give you the right to delete my recent posts or "archive" them. If you have a serious problem with the matter, we can seek arbitration or some other means to resolve it. Deleting useful additions, editing against consensus, and deleting others' views from the talking page is bullying. If you don't like that, you should try working with other editors rather than against them. Huihermit (talk) 00:41, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

My interpretation of all 4 responses (one of which is mine) to the RfC is that while the images constitute no violation of WP:NOTGUIDE, the screenshots aren't very useful and could just as well be removed. The RfC nominator is clearly in the "keep the images camp", that means we have a 60-40 on for/against, this is not a consensus, this means that we haven't really reached a consensus yet. Consensus doesn't mean voting and the majority can overrule the minority, it means that we add to the article what all interested editors can agree upon, see WP:CON. So: what sort of image could all interested editors agree upon? AadaamS (talk) 09:44, 12 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That is actually not what WP:CONSENSUS states about this matter. The guidelines explicitly state that for matters of deleting content, then even if there is no consensus, the default is to keep the "article, page, image, or other content." In other words, if there is no consensus, the content is kept. You are correct that according to these guidelines, consensus is not a vote, but the guidelines are equally emphatic that consensus does not need to be unanimous either. The RfC has already gathered the opinions of five editors, three of which explicitly stated that at least one screenshot of a console running OpenIndiana would be appropriate and useful. If you would like to add other images, then you are welcome to do so. I would like to see more thumbnails and more information in this article. However, the consensus is that the thumbnail in question does not violate WP:NOGUIDE, and the opinions of three editors have already been recorded in favor of keeping at least one thumbnail of OpenIndiana in console mode. Best regards. Huihermit (talk) 13:16, 12 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed you are right about default being to keep. Then we can agree that the images are there not because of an actual consensus among the editors. I have not disputed the WP:NOTGUIDE status. When it comes to images in general, I have the diametrically opposing view, I think images are only justified when showing features unique or very important in OpenIndiana. Imho, console-mode is a feature of every unixlike OS. Why is console mode in OpenIndiana special? Also, the trouble with images as opposed to text is that you can't diff the image content from one version of the article to the next. Also, why is having many images important? AadaamS (talk) 18:31, 12 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Images may help to illustrate the subject. It's the same reason why the article for tiger has pictures of tigers. OpenIndiana running in console mode may look similar to other Unixes to you, but actually system console shows a colorful Linux console running in a framebuffer that is completely different from the console used in OpenIndiana. Some people want to see what it looks like to just use the operating system in its native mode. It is not necessarily about illustrating the console per se, but more about illustrating OpenIndiana running in a console. For example, the thumbnail added does not just show a console, but also the contents of OpenIndiana's root directory, and typical shell usage in OpenIndiana. At least some editors and some readers find that interesting and helpful. Also, I just want to add that many articles for Unix and Unix-like operating systems and software include screenshots of them running in console mode. It is not at all unique to the OpenIndiana article. Huihermit (talk) 00:12, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Accuracy

Some of the sources referred to in the article are fairly elusive ("appears", "possibly", "seems to") about facts while being affirmative that the OpenIndiana project is dormant. Statements about lack of security fixes and overall poor state of software versions are inaccurate and show either lack of understanding or absence of fact checking. Basically nobody who wrote an article about OpenIndiana ever contacted the OpenIndiana project for information or cared to look at the repositories' activity. How is it possible to state that claims may be inaccurate while preserving neutrality ? Jollyd (talk) 16:52, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

OpenIndianaHipster.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:06, 21 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]