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Archive 60: November 2019

Why redirect fresh prince characters list?

I thought It would be great to have it back up. I didn't undo your re-direct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.112.141.200 (talk) 22:28, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

I have no idea what you're talking about. Onel5969 TT me 09:53, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Delhi Duty Free

Hey! Thanks for reviewing my articles! I just realized that you tagged Delhi Duty-Free for Speedy Deletion. Before I could improve (and then maybe contest), it was already gone alas. I was able to see the rationale you mentioned. that the page clearly didn't indicate why it should be on Wikipedia. I wanted to learn more from you on what else I should have added to indicate why it should be on the wiki. There were many awards but I removed those because a fellow editor remarked that the page read like an advert. That's the reason I chose not to mention details like revenue since that might also read promotional. Your help and guidance here will be very useful indeed!

IamKhandelwal (talk) 06:27, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi IamKhandelwal - local stores, like this, are rarely going to meet WP:GNG. There are very few awards which make something notable. The other editor was most likely correct, when you add a bunch of meaningless awards to a page, it's going to get deleted for advertising. The policies you need to look at are WP:GNG, and since this is a business, WP:CORPDEPTH. Onel5969 TT me 09:57, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback on this, Onel5969! I see your point now. However, while the store is localised, it is at the International Airport. I was also seeing other Duty free stores like Dubai Duty Free and the articles in the List of duty-free shops and felt that Delhi Duty Free qualified to be a part of it. But from what I understand from your feedback, Delhi Duty Free isn't compliant with WP:CORPDEPTH, right? Apologies for bugging you again with this! Have a good evening!

IamKhandelwal (talk) 08:19, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Moving articles to draft space

Hello, Onel5969,

Please only move recently written articles to Draft space, not articles that are 5, 10, 12, or, in one case, 15 years old. Some of these articles are not on many Watchlists and it is unlikely that the page creators are still editing. Then, because no one realizes the article has been moved, it gets deleted in 6 months because no one has worked on the article and it is considered a "stale draft". These days, stale draft deletions happen automatically and there are very few old drafts that get saved for future work.

If you think the article is "undersourced", then work on it yourself to get better sources. If you are not already doing so, when you move an article, notify the page creator and also regular editors to the page that the article has been moved because otherwise, no one who cares will know it's been moved and it will just get deleted in six months. You might believe that your actions are benefiting the article but, most of the time, this is just another, slower route to deleting halfway decent articles. Thank you for considering my request. Liz Read! Talk! 19:40, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Absolutely, Liz - the stuff I draftify almost always comes off the NPP feed, so those could be instances when I didn't check to see the page history. Don't go to too much trouble, but if you could provide an example or two, it would help me ascertain why I moved those particular drafts, which will make it easier for me not to do the same thing again. But as I said, don't go to too much trouble about it, thanks. Onel5969 TT me 20:52, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Breaking Bad print sources

Hi, I'm looking through some independently published episodes guides like Breaking bad 101 : the complete critical companion by Alan Sepinwall. I believe there is enough critical commentary on Breaking Bad episodes to warrant the existence of all 62 episodes. Thanks.--Prisencolin (talk) 21:50, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

I put out a Resource Exchange request for it if you want to keep track --Prisencolin (talk) 21:53, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

Tyun (letter)

Thanks for editing the article - but what have you done?! The article is now literally a stub! Please add stub markers next time. I laughed extremely hard at your latest edit to Tyun (letter) bcs you turned that article into a stub without even leaving a stub marker :)) FIGHTERSOVIET wpedia (talk) 12:19, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Feel free to add stub markers. They are not required. But please stop adding uncited material to WP. You've been told this numerous times. Onel5969 TT me 12:23, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Hillel Day School

Hello Onel5969,

I apologize in advance for not using Wikipedia jargon, abbreviations, and formatting in this letter. I am a Wikipedia novice. I am writing this because I believe the page Hillel Day School should be reverted to revision of 13:43, 10 February 2017‎ by Dane. Here is the history:

In 2006, there was a debate ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Hillel_Day_School ) of the proposed deletion of Hillel Day School article. The result was "no consensus, defaulting to keep".
Since then, as far as I can see, there were no new debates of the proposed deletion of that article. Despite of that, on 10 February 2017‎ the user John from Idegon redirected that article to location "per guidelines and outcomes". Hm... Outcomes? I didn't find any other "outcomes" than that 2006 discussion that resulted in "no consensus, defaulting to keep".
On 30 October 2019‎ I (user Yymmff) undid John from Idegon's redirect. A few minutes later on the same date, you undid my change and reinstated the redirect to locality with a comment "Restore redirect - non-notable school".

I would like to give you the rationale why the subject of this article -- Hillel Day School of Metropolitan Detroit -- is notable. Here is the list of references to significant coverage of this school in independent, reliable, secondary sources:

Besides the above quoted significant book chapter or news articles, Hillel Day School was covered in the news media on the following lesser or curious occasions:

Onel5969, I ask you to reconsider your decision to redirect Hillel Day School page to locality. Thank you, Yymmff (talk) 20:47, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Yymmff - First, I formatted your above comments to a more suitable style for WP, just for your future reference. Second, what John from Idegon is talking about regarding "outcomes" is WP:OUTCOMES, which is a summary of how a deletion discussion will usually end up. Again for your reference, editors sometimes say things like "outcomes", or "gng", or "musicbio", as a shorthand. To see what they are talking about, simply put the wp: in front of the term, and you can look it up. But back to Outcomes. In that, over the years, WP as a community has learned that the vast majority of non-secondary schools are not notable. Therefore, to show they pass notability, there has to be non-local, in-depth coverage from reliable secondary sources. Hillel may be a very good school, and might have a very excellent reputation within its community, however there simply isn't the coverage necessary to show that it passes WP:GNG. All the coverage of the school is either local, or trivial, or from a niche publication, so it doesn't have the depth of coverage necessary to pass WP:CORPDEPTH. Onel5969 TT me 22:31, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi Onel5969. First, please note that I added another source "2018-01-14. Celebrating MLK Day..." to the above list.
Now, let's look at the notability guideline. WP:ORGCRITE requires that "each source needs to be significant, independent, reliable, and secondary". Note what it does NOT require -- it does not say that each source must be non-local. Moreover, WP:ORGDEPTH says "a 400-word article in The Village Voice is a lot more significant than a single-sentence mention in The New York Times." Then, WP:AUD says "at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary". With that in mind, let's look at the sources I provided above:
The "significant coverage" criterion. 1965 book -- has a chapter (3 pages) dedicated to a detail description of first years of the school (also, let's note that WP:AGE MATTERS: "With regard to historical events, older reports ... tend to have the most detail, and are less likely to have errors introduced by repeated copying and summarizing"). 2005-09-02 article -- 1,100-words in-depth coverage of school's decision to drop the Teachers' Union. 2016-08-26 article -- 570-words; detailed coverage of updates to the school facilities. 2017-12-13 article -- 1,100-words coverage of school's celebrating 60-years anniversary. 2018-01-14 video -- a 4-minutes long, in-depth TV segment about school's special way of celebrating the MLK day. 2018-04-26 article -- 2,300-words in-depth coverage of school's celebrating 60-years anniversary. 2013-11-25 article -- 800-words in-depth report about how this religious school marks a rare occasion of a Jewish holiday overlapping Thanksgiving. 2014-02-27 article -- 350-words article in-depth analyzing this school's decision NOT to close when all other schools close for a snow day.
The "at least one regional, statewide, provincial, national, or international source is necessary" criterion. Michigan State Chamber of Commerce, 1965 -- statewide source. The Forward -- national source (see https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-forward/ ). C&G News -- local source. The Jewish News -- Greater Detroit source. Fox2 Detroit -- Greater Detroit / statewide source, a branch of a national source (see https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/fox-news/ ). NBC Connecticut -- statewide source (of the state different than Mich., the home state of the Hillel Day School), and also a branch of a national source (see https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/nbc-news/ ). CBS 62 Detroit -- Greater Detroit / statewide source, a branch of a national source (see https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/cbs-news/ ).
...
Next, let's turn to WP:OUTCOMES that you gave as a possible explanation of what John from Idegon meant by "outcomes". But it clearly states it "is not one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines". I agree with you that WP:OUTCOMES just "a summary of how a deletion discussion will USUALLY end up". However, in case of Hillel Day School (as I said) the ONLY AfD debate was in 2006 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Hillel_Day_School ) and its result was "no consensus, defaulting to KEEP". Since then there were no new AfD debates. Despite of that, on 10 February 2017‎ the user John from Idegon speedily removed the article. Isn't it a departure from WP:DEL-PROCESSES?? The latter requires "If a page has survived a prior deletion discussion, it must not be speedy deleted."
Thank you, Yymmff (talk) 04:34, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
  • In 2006, we also had articles on every Pokemon character. We no longer do. Wikipedia has changed radically in 13 years. You have 2 choices here. You can revert my redirect, in which case, I will take the article to AfD or you can drop it. You have not got the sources to sustain an article nor do they exist. You do not have and will not find multiple reliable sources that are completely independent of the school that discuss the school in detail. None were present on the article and everything you've mentioned here is just a namecheck. As every word in a Wikipedia article must be paraphrased from reliable sources, how can we make an article without them? That's why we have notability rules. John from Idegon (talk) 16:51, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
  • @John from Idegon, I respectfully disagree with your assessment that referenced above 300...500...1,000-word newspaper articles or magazine chapters discussing the school in detail are "just a namecheck"; compare with WP:ORGDEPTH saying "a 400-word article in The Village Voice is a lot more significant than a single-sentence mention in The New York Times". I also maintain my sources are WP:INDEPENDENT. I will follow your advise with a modification: rather than reverting your redirect, I will completely rewrite the article based on my sources; then you free to take it to AfD. The draft will be here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Yymmff/sandbox/Hillel_Day_School , feel free to check from time to time. Thanks - Yymmff (talk) 13:43, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

About page: He Bowls to the Left

I disagree with your edit that removed my undo edit. Please do not remove my edit, as this will start an edit war. Please rethink about the page. If you disagree let me know. Thanks, LlewynYiming (talk) 05:02, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi. This is not a case of disagreeing with my edit. You don't get to overturn consensus on your own. It's been reverted as per policy, if you revert, it could be taken as a sign of disruptive editing and will be reported.Onel5969 TT me 11:24, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
Hello. I have backup for my edit. When I looked at someone's user talk (The C of E), they said they would back me up with this edit. No. I am not doing disruptive editing ok. Please just remake the edit. Thanks.

Additions

Thankyou for mentioning the book The Journey (Steve Smith Book) in the publications section. I really appreciate that.LlewynYiming (talk) 05:55, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Ten years of editing!

Hey, Onel5969. I'd like to wish you a wonderful First Edit Day on behalf of the Wikipedia Birthday Committee!
Have a great day! Chris Troutman (talk) 11:19, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
So many happy messages celebrating your ten years Onel5969 - I had to chose which one to add my congrats to :-) Many thanks for your years of work here at the 'pedia. Cheers. MarnetteD|Talk 06:40, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, Chris troutman and MarnetteD.Onel5969 TT me 10:51, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Invitation to join the Ten Year Society

Dear Onel5969/Archive 72,

I'd like to extend a cordial invitation to you to join the Ten Year Society, an informal group for editors who've been participating in the Wikipedia project for ten years or more. ​

Best regards, Chris Troutman (talk) 11:19, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Happy First Edit Day!

Happy First Edit Day!

Have a very happy first edit anniversary!

From the Birthday Committee, CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 16:45, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks CAPTAIN RAJU. Onel5969 TT me 10:51, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Dimitris Serpezis

I believe WP:NFOOTY requires participation in a competitive game to establish notability, so friendlies do not count. Cheers! Geregen2 (talk) 20:44, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, Geregen2, didn't know that. Will keep that in mind as I review new articles.Onel5969 TT me 10:52, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi!

I'm new to the wiki and still learning how to use certain features, so I'd really appreciate some help, or just someone to talk to. Please post any answers, questions, comments, or any replies you may have. Thank you.

Happytoucan72 (talk) 15:33, 7 November 2019 (UTC)Happytoucan72

A barnstar for you!

The Barnstar of Diligence
Thanks for your valuable efforts reviewing new pages. They help Wikipedia grow into a better source. Interstellarity (talk) 16:40, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks Interstellarity. Onel5969 TT me 10:15, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

AfD

FYI this closure in case you missed it. Best, Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:02, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Kudpung - thanks, but I saw it. Disagree with it, but saw it. Take care. Onel5969 TT me 02:07, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Sebastian Villalobos

Good Morning I updated the page and added one more source during the week Ill try to add more sources


Topmartz (talk) 08:11, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

"Fixing" Redirects

Please stop changing redirects from Symantec that point to NortonLifeLock. The page at WP:NOTBROKEN explains in detail why we don't do this on Wikipedia. - Ahunt (talk) 13:15, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Ahunt - I am well aware of notbroken, but please check that it is a redirect before making incorrect corrections. Symantec is no longer a rdirect, it has been turned into a dab page, which as per policy, need to be disambiguated. Onel5969 TT me 13:44, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. - Ahunt (talk) 13:47, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
No worries, Ahunt - I think what happened is that yesterday it was turned into a dab page (with hundreds of dab links). At some point another editor objected to it being a dab page (incorrectly, in my opinion), and turned it back into a redirect, which is when you made your corrections (which were correct at the time). However, after a brief discussion on the talk page, agreement was reached it should be a dab. Hence, my re-doing the dabs today. Take care. Onel5969 TT me 13:52, 8 November 2019 (UTC)
That makes sense, because when I checked it, it was a redirect, which is why I reverted your changes. At least we got it all sorted out! - Ahunt (talk) 14:34, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

A Barnstar for you!

The Disambiguator's Barnstar
The Disambiguator's Barnstar is awarded to Wikipedians who are prolific disambiguators.
Keep up the good work! Cheers! CentralTime301 03:21, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Flan disambiguation

Thanks for your work on disambiguating links to flan! --Macrakis (talk) 17:32, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, Macrakis - That was a pretty tricky one! Onel5969 TT me 10:03, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

A Barnstar for you

The New Page Patroller's Barnstar

With over 45 thousand reviews in the last year, I wanted to give a big thanks for your staggering efforts. — Insertcleverphrasehere (or here)(click me!) 00:01, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks Insertcleverphrasehere. Onel5969 TT me 10:04, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

abdul nadiyath

sir, i changed the name to abdul hakku because he is commonly known as abdul hakku. hakku is his shortest name. so avoiding that word in his name is very odd. nediyath is his house name or surname. everybody know that abdul can not be a name. it is an ajective to the name. --Dvellakat (talk) 02:56, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Che gelida manina, O soave fanciulla‎

Hi, all these while the page has been directed to an Opera instead of its own article, the aria. Please do not revert it unless you have a valid reason. Refer to en:Category:Arias by Giacomo Puccini - Jay (talk) 15:15, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi, please talk here before you remove the articles. All the arias are consistent and listed in en:Category:Opera excerpts. If arias articles are not permitted in Wiki, how about all in en:Category:Opera excerpts. I will bring this matter to Opera Project for discussion @ Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera. Please discuss before reverting or deleting or redirecting them - Jay (talk) 15:24, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Autumn Ridge, Arizona for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Autumn Ridge, Arizona is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Autumn Ridge, Arizona until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. MB 16:02, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Autumn Ridge, Arizona

Just to clarify, your comment there telling me to "see below" meant to see the "Keep" comment, but not the "hounding" comment, right? I no nothing about Whyayg. MB 00:34, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

No, just to be specific, as my comment was, was to "see my note below", and you are correct, nothing to do with the other editor.Onel5969 TT me 01:45, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

B.F.C. Whitehouse Field

Hi, I noticed that you recently marked the article "B.F.C. Whitehouse Field" as a non-notable venue. In writing the article, my rationale for its notability was based on the criteria in Wikipedia:WikiProject Event Venues/Sports task force/Notability, specifically the "Stadiums and indoor arenas" section which considers a venue notable if it "Currently hosts or has hosted a team in the NCAA, Major Junior ice hockey, or like amateur organization". In this case, BFC Whitehouse field hosts the Harwich Mariners, a team in the Cape Cod Baseball League (CCBL), which is an NCAA-sanctioned collegiate summer baseball league where top players at NCAA schools compete in amateur summer baseball. This appears to meet the qualification above, and all other CCBL venues have been allowed. I wonder if you might provide me your rationale for determining this venue to be not notable, or whether there might be some deficiency in the article that could be corrected so that it might be restored. Thank you for your consideration, JonP125 (talk) 04:11, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi JonP125 - the notability criteria you point to above is an essay, not WP policy. There are SNGs which are part of WP policy, like WP:NCOLLATH, but the SNG you point to is not one of them. Rather, it's an essay to help editors select topics to write about. Regardless, SNG's don't preclude a subject from having to pass WP:GNG. This stadium, in a major media market might do that. However, currently it is sourced by 4 references. The first I don't have access to, but appears to be only a trivial mention and/or listing. The next two are trivial mentions in sports articles, both dealing with the scoreboard. And the final one is a press release, which is not a reliable source. If you can find sources which talk about the stadium in-depth, then it would pass. But remember, don't use press releases, or sources which are linked to the field (the team', the CBBL website, etc.) Regarding the other CCBL venues, that's called an WP:OSE argument, which isn't very useful. I hope this helps.Onel5969 TT me 11:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
OK, that all makes sense. Thanks for the knowledge and the quick reply. I did what you suggested and found some more reliable and in-depth sources on the subject:
  • "Harwich Dedicates...Cardinals Win". The Cape Codder. Orleans, MA. July 17, 1969. p. 23.
  • Eldred, Rich (July 23, 1992). "A Glance at Whitehouse Field, Site of the 1992 All-Star Game". Yarmouth Register. Yarmouth, MA. pp. S2, S6.
  • Walsh, Sean M. (June 30, 1994). "Greener Grass, Brighter Diamonds: Ranking the Fields of the Cape League". Yarmouth Register. Yarmouth, MA. pp. 5, 27.
  • Matt Rice (January 29, 2008). "New lights in the works for Whitehouse". wickedlocal.com. Retrieved November 15, 2019.
  • Sean Walsh (May 19, 2015). "Top 10 Coolest Places to Watch a Sporting Event on Cape Cod". capecod.com. Retrieved September 25, 2019.
Could you take a quick look, and then let me know how you suggest I proceed from here? Thanks for the help! JonP125 (talk) 23:51, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Editor's Barnstar
Keep up the good work! Cheers! CentralTime301 14:14, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

I have unreviewed a page you curated

Hi, I'm Shoy. I wanted to let you know that I saw the page you reviewed, Rehaif v. United States, and have marked it as unpatrolled. If you have any questions, please ask them on my talk page. Thank you.

(Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

shoy (reactions) 14:44, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Shoy. Any particular reason? Onel5969 TT me 14:46, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, misclick. It looked unreviewed in the queue. shoy (reactions) 16:24, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
No worries Shoy, we might have even clicked almost simultaneously, looking at the log history. Just wanted to make sure you didn't see something I missed. Onel5969 TT me 17:11, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Deletion review for Kasumi Suzuki

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Kasumi Suzuki. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review. lullabying (talk) 19:39, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Sandy McLeod

I will defer to your take on the rules, though I have to say I feel merely being nominated for a short film that very few people saw is not the same as being nominated for a full length commercial film. But if that's the will of the 'pedians, so be it. I will give the article its check-mark, if it doesn't have one already. ubiquity (talk) 22:25, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

I understand your position ubiquity - I have the same issue with other SNG's, but I simply go by what the consensus is. I just appreciate anyone who gives of their time on NPP, so wanted to give you a head's up based on what I've experienced in AfD battles over the last 6 years. And it's not just about Oscars, you'll find folks feel the same way about the BAFTA awards, and the Indian national awards for film. I've started to see it for any national film award, but I think that's a response to the complaint of WP being too west-centered, particularly the US. One of the biggest things is the Emmy's. You have the nighttime Emmy's, the daytime Emmy's, the technical Emmy's, and then you have regional Emmy's. Regardless, keep up your good work. Onel5969 TT me 23:39, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Lionel Royce / Francis Lederer

Hi,

the was uploaded by your account in 2016. I was aproached by a German movie expert for that era, and he strongly argues that this portrait does not show Lionel Royce but rather is a portrait of Francis Lederer. For reference please see for example the following publication: Exil. Sechs Schauspieler aus Deutschland. 33. Internationale Filmfestspiele Berlin, 1983. I assume the photograph was wrongly attributed to Lionel Royce in your source. It would be great, if you could correct the name in the file description. Regards,--Poupou l'quourouce (talk) 12:34, 15 November 2019 (UTC)


Speedy Deletion of East Bengal the Real Power

Hi, The article East Bengal the Real Power was an informative article about the very first fan group in Indian football and only showed how the fan culture grew in India through the various activities of the fan group. The article was not at all promotional and I strongly disagree to the deletion. Kindly restore and suggest if anything should be changed in order for it to be more neutral and informative. Regards, --SabyaC (talk) 08:34, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I didn't delete it. I nominated it. You can contact the admin and ask to have it restored, but I doubt they will do it. It was very highly promotional. Onel5969 TT me 13:11, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Desert Village Mobile Home Park, Arizona for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Desert Village Mobile Home Park, Arizona is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Desert Village Mobile Home Park, Arizona until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. SportingFlyer T·C 10:16, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Joseph Cachia Caruana

Hi, I see now your message from 12:42AM. And I see that now (9h later) the page has already been deleted. I can therefore not even check which part was deemed to be at risk of copyviol. I would be grateful if you could restore it as a user sandbox, so that I may check and revise as needed. Thanks, --Dans (talk) 20:08, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Dans - Neither can I, since I'm not an admin. All I can say is that if I nominate a page for speedy violation due to a copyvio, the vast majority of the page was a copyvio. WP takes copyvios pretty seriously, and they usually don't last long once the copyvio is discovered. That being said, we're all volunteers and none of us are infallible, so you can ask the Admin who deleted the page, in this case that would be Yunshui (you can find that out on when you click the redlink for the no longer existing article), to reinstate it. However, looking at the source, it comes back to me that you simply cut and paste the entire paragraph from the http://faa.org.mt/events/sliemas-built-heritage-celebrated-faces/ source] and used it as your article. Hope this helps.Onel5969 TT me 20:14, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
Onel5959 is entirely correct; the two sentences were copied practically verbatim (the only alteration was the addition of the descriptor "Maltese" and the phrase "in Sliema"; in every other respect the wording was identical). If you do that again, you will be blocked from editing. Yunshui 雲水 21:59, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
So now you threaten me with a block for two (2) sentences that are very close to the source text on the rather-quirky subject of a Maltese architect? wow. --Dans (talk) 21:17, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Dans, it's polite to "ping" another editor when directing at a comment at them, if the comment isn't on their own talk page. Yunshui, I believe that Dans comment above was to you.Onel5969 TT me 21:22, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Wow indeed, it's almost as though copying someone else's work and claiming it as your own is frowned upon... Yunshui 雲水 09:02, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Article Atimaharathi

Respected sir, I deleted redirection sentence because Atimaharathi & Maharathi are not the same just like water and sand. You are telling that sources aren't there, so our version is not acceptable. Ok but because of redirection the meaning is changing. So let article be empty instead of redirection. I think there will be no problem if wikipedia doesn't have an article. Thanking you Karna DV (talk) 14:30, 18 November 2019 (UTC) Karna DV

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you feel the redirect is incorrect, then you must nominate at WP:RfD, not simply blank the page.Onel5969 TT me 14:43, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

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Article Atimaharathi

Thank you very much sir. You changed target (redirection) which is accurate & exact. And sorry for wrong edits done yesterday. Karna DV (talk) 02:29, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Revert Edits

I'm notifying that you reverted all edits on Yuki Wakai page. What is in-depth coverage? And how can i find them? As i said numerous times, you can easily do it yourself, though.CuteDolphin712 (talk) 13:47, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

April 25 Sports Club and February 8 Sports Club

Definitely, April 25 Sports Club and February 8 Sports Club are not same club.

I'm South Korean. I checked out many sources.

Both Sports clubs are similar in many ways. But North Korean Ministry of People's Armed Forces are operating April 25 Sports Club and February 8 Sports Club independently.

Please check out below source 북한 최고 수준의 우수 선수들은 대부분 인민무력부 산하의 4.25체육단 및 2.8체육단, 정무원 교육부 산하의 천리마체육단 등에 소속돼 활약한다.

There are detailed sources in Korean wikipedia. Please check out Korean wikipedia - February 8 Sports Club article using google translator https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/2.8%EC%B2%B4%EC%9C%A1%EB%8B%A8

In order not to confuse. I created English article. Footwiks (talk) 14:07, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Reform Boehm system (clarinet)

Which number of footnotes should not be clear enough?--Gisel (talk) 18:13, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Gisel - First, the article is extremely well written. Very nice job. Regarding footnotes. Everything in the article should be sourced, and at least every paragraph should have a footnote, as long as everything in that paragraph comes from the same source. So, for example, in the first section, the second paragraph has the first two sentences footnoted, but the remainder of the paragraph isn't. Hope that makes sense. Same thing in the second section, and in the third section, the third paragraph is footnoteless as well. Keep up the good work. Onel5969 TT me 19:51, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Deepin desktop environment

The deepin desktop environment is suitably notable for there to be a WP article on it. It has near constantly (even in reviews) been treated as the same as Deepin OS, which makes disambiguation very difficult, especially with new users; Manjaro with Deepin DE is almost as popular as Deepin OS, so not treating Deepin DE as its own topic makes things a hassle. "Why isn't X feature in Deepin?" "Well, you're using DDE and not DOS, go read the Wikipedia article..."

Also if you treat Budgie as separate from Solus, why NOT treat DDE and DOS differently? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deus omnipotens sum (talk • contribs) 20:22, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

EDIT: BTW if you're wondering about separate coverage, there's this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urs3ap4tn4Y) and this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5P5tm5nd3Q) and this (https://hackernoon.com/manjaro-deepin-review-a-clean-minimal-and-powerful-linux-distro-6c0ccac04cd8). Desktop environments don't tend to get a huge amount of coverage on their own, but as part of distros - look for "Manjaro Deepin" or "Fedora Deepin" or "Pardus Deepin" and you'll find... well, Manjaro Deepin gives 324,000 reviews on Google. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deus omnipotens sum (talk • contribs) 20:30, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

help

very important person, need to put in wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Alon_Kaplan

I have unreviewed a page you curated

Hi, I'm Barkeep49. I wanted to let you know that I saw the page you reviewed, Jjaibot, and have marked it as unpatrolled. If you have any questions, please ask them on my talk page. Thank you.

(Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

Barkeep49 (talk) 16:32, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Barkeep49 - any particular reason? I know now it has been tagged for COI, but it went through through AfD and got a keep result? Onel5969 TT me 17:53, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
Onel5969, was going through the patrols of the person reported at WT:NPR for UPE and unreviewing ones that looked troublesome. There were some marked as patrolled after him which I need to go back and fix including (clearly) this one. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 18:11, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
How ironic, , that's what I'm doing too. Onel5969 TT me 18:19, 21 November 2019 (UTC)


Do you create new pages on request?

I see that you've created a vast amount of pages on many different topics. I was curious if you take requests? Sean1sposato (talk) 19:36, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Sean1sposato - yes, but rarely. The subject has to interest me. And I don't do paid editing.Onel5969 TT me 20:26, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
I see. By any chance, would you be interested in creating a page for a roofing company? I am a conflict of interest as I am tied to the company. However, I do have text that could be worked with if the page were to be created. Sean1sposato (talk) 21:08, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi Sean1sposato - it'd have to be a pretty impressive roofing company. Remember that WP is an encyclopedia/gazetteer, not a place for advertisements/promotion. Does the company pass WP:GNG and WP:CORPDEPTH? Onel5969 TT me 21:35, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Onel5969, I of course would be biased to say that the company is impressive. However, I do believe the company passes both of Wikipedia's different guidelines for topic notoriety. The company is well known in the state of Florida and Georgia. The company has been featured in countless news outlets spanning back to 2005 when it first gained notoriety for repairing roof damages for many homes after Hurricane Ivan and Dennis. In 2011, Jasper (the company's former name) was ranked #29 in Roofing Contractor Magazine’s Top 100 Roofing Contractors. Since, the company has also gone on to replace over 50,000 roofs and become an official sponsor of the Miami Dolphins, the Tampa Bay Lightning Hockey team, the University of Central Florida's football and basketball teams, the University of South Florida's Athletic department, and Florida Atlantic University. As it relates to the company's sponsorship of UCF, RoofClaim.com holds naming rights to the UCF men's and women's basketball court at the Addition Financial Arena in Orlando, Florida. Also, the company's logo is currently featured on the field of the Spectrum Stadium (the official stadium for the UCF football team). Sean1sposato (talk) 14:01, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

WikiProject Musical Instruments

Who decides if an article will be included in the WikiProject Musical Instruments, and who decides on the classification?--Gisel (talk) 20:00, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Gisel - anyone can decide to add an article to any project. If I review an article on a musical instrument, I automatically add it to the project. If someone who is actually a member of the project objects and removes it from the project, that's their prerogative. And anyone can class an article. But you should be sufficiently versed in the classification scheme. I rarely classify articles, except if they are list or stubs. I hope that helps, and keep up your good recent work on article creation.Onel5969 TT me 20:33, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Turning Zhong Fong into a redirect to David Rotenberg (author)

Dear Onel

I confess I am rather taken aback by your action in reviewing that page. First of all, I have not read any of the novels in the series nor in the other novel in which the character appears, that is, every single thing included in that article comes from a secondary source, including the brief synopses. The article is focused mainly on what other people (critics, journalists) have had to say or the author in interviews by same. I don't recall the exact number of sources I included but there must have been a reasonable number of RS for an article of that size. The fact that one of the novels was shortlisted for the Arthur Ellis award alone provides a degree of notability on its own. I chose to do a character article instead of a series article because the character made a cameo in a non-series novel by the author (one of the longest novels of all time (Shanghai), incidentally). Now, I'm not saying this is a question of you are right and I am wrong (I am biased, I know that). What I don't understand is the summary 'execution' by a single editor, no matter how experienced. There was no discussion. If you had a problem with notability you could have stuck a tag on the article. You could have talked about it on the talk page. You could have put it up for AfD. But you did none of that. You complemented me on my writing and then unilaterally decided you alone are the arbiter of notability of a Canadian novel. I respectfully request that you restore the article and begin a discussion on the talk page or else nominate it for deletion, where others may have their say. If the consensus is to delete, turn into a redirect, or to expand the author's page with material from what is restored, so be it. BTW what do you mean by "world notability"? That sounds like Viztor's argument during the AfD on One Night. He was wrong about that, it's not a criterion that I'm aware of. ZarhanFastfire (talk) 23:04, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

I sought advice from Bearcat. I think I know where I went wrong. I should have made it a series article rather than a character article, as the work's notability must be established before a character article--and in fact would have made the character article unnecessary. Correct? Can I still access the article somewhere in order to do that? The article would be the same name (or else Zhong Fong Mysteries but I'd prefer to keep it to Zhong Fong which is more universally attested).ZarhanFastfire (talk) 23:44, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
First, fictional characters must have real world notability, not just "in-universe" notability. For example, Scout Finch is an incredibly pivotal character in To Kill a Mockingbird, but her notability stops at that book's universe's edge. I made no comment on the notability of the novel(s). But when reviewing articles, if the book(s) do not have articles, then it's fairly certain that no characters within those books have notability. Regarding the info in the article, it wasn't deleted, simply redirected to the author. So if you go to the history of the article, and click on the "difference between revisions", you'll see that all the information is still there. I don't know if each of the five novels are notable, but if you write about the series, the title should be something like Zhong Fong (series). Hope this helps. Onel5969 TT me 00:35, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. I did indeed misunderstand your statement re: notability to be towards the works themselves rather than the character. It all makes sense now, and I'm sorry if anything I said sounded untoward, I've had a few shocks recently and this just added to them. And I didn't know (till Bearcat told me tonight) that I could access all of that stuff by cliking on the re-direct link within the Rotenberg article. It won't even take that long. 99 percent of the articles I write are on films, people in the industry or things related (I wrote the Rotenberg article itself after learning about him via his acting coach career) so Zhong Fong was my first attempt at a purely literature article and I zigged instead of zagged. I think it'll be better as the series, I can add more criticism, not just character discussion.ZarhanFastfire (talk) 01:55, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
See now Zhong Fong (novel series). It's about a thousand percent better than the character article was IMHO. :) ZarhanFastfire (talk) 10:43, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Nice job on the article now, ZarhanFastfire.Onel5969 TT me 14:54, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Google Code-In 2019 is coming - please mentor some documentation tasks!

Hello,

Google Code-In, Google-organized contest in which the Wikimedia Foundation participates, starts in a few weeks. This contest is about taking high school students into the world of opensource. I'm sending you this message because you recently edited a documentation page at the English Wikipedia.

I would like to ask you to take part in Google Code-In as a mentor. That would mean to prepare at least one task (it can be documentation related, or something else - the other categories are Code, Design, Quality Assurance and Outreach) for the participants, and help the student to complete it. Please sign up at the contest page and send us your Google account address to google-code-in-admins@lists.wikimedia.org, so we can invite you in!

From my own experience, Google Code-In can be fun, you can make several new friends, attract new people to your wiki and make them part of your community.

If you have any questions, please let us know at google-code-in-admins@lists.wikimedia.org.

Thank you!

--User:Martin Urbanec (talk) 21:58, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Original Barnstar
Thank you for your review on my page. Gave me better insights on developing and publishing articles on Wiki. Stevetosin (talk) 05:29, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks Stevetosin, keep up the good work. Onel5969 TT me 14:56, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

NPP Barnstar

The New Page Patroller's Barnstar

Fabulous job doing a lot of excellent (and tedious) work at NPP to my fellow WikiGnome! You rock! — Sagotreespirit (talk) 10:37, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, Sagotreespirit. And thanks for all you do, especially contributing at NPP. Onel5969 TT me 14:57, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Question

Hi, who is the blocked user who created the article battle of Aden? Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Aden (2019).--SharabSalam (talk) 02:33, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi SharabSalam - I'm not an admin, so I can't review pages which have been deleted. And off the top of my head, I can't remember the name of the blocked user. I do remember that there were about 13 articles they had created which I put up for speedy deletion. You might ask Anthony Appleyard, who is an admin and declined the speedy and sent them to AfD, or Tone, who closed the AfD. Either of them will be able to tell you.Onel5969 TT me 02:43, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Original Barnstar
Hey there! I really appreciate that you didn't remove my article and put it in draft. Although I have removed the content for which I had no citations available. Kindly let me know what next I need to do in order to publish the article as publication of this article is important because this article is dedicated to a person who has immensely contributed in dissemination of ancient vedic and spiritual wisdom throughout the world through television media. Please help. Siddhs.prakash (talk) 06:46, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

applying for Move

Cypress of Keshmar to Cypress of Kashmar .Thank you M.k.m2003 (talk) 13:02, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi M.k.m2003 - it looks like an editor changed the name back in 2012. But since the only source says it's spelled Kashmar, have requested the move for you.Onel5969 TT me 13:08, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Request on 16:28:18, 27 November 2019 for assistance on AfC submission by Devanshmrc


Dear Onel5969,

I have published many articles in well-known journals under the topic "Underwater Domain Awareness". I am a research guest faculty in IIT Delhi and retired Commander of Navy. Worked for more than 15 years in this field. Underwater Domain Awareness is a very different technical perspective than Maritime Domain Awareness and because of this, I have especially justified the reason in my article. Also, I have cited some of the well-known research paper for supporting it. My article is also published on site Bharat Shakti and OTRS has also issued. So, I think there is no information as such which is not cited. It is my humble and kind request to read the sources and articles and let me know if any further changes need to be done. Please try to revert it to the Article space soon.

Thanks Dr. Cmd Arnab Das Devanshmrc (talk) 16:28, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for the message. In this instance, based upon your comment above, this article is suffering from a severe case of WP:OR, which is not allowed on WP. Will ask some other editors about how to proceed.Onel5969 TT me 18:59, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Pinging experienced AfC editors for their thoughts on the above conversation (also see this conversation on another talk page. Thanks for any insights, Ad Orientem, Ammarpad, Atsme, Bkissin, Bradv, Justlettersandnumbers, Primefac, The Mirror Cracked. Also feel free to ping other editors who you might think have insight into this. Thanks again. Onel5969 TT me 12:49, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi, Onel5969 - give me some time to review and I’ll get back to you. Atsme Talk 📧 13:22, 28 November 2019 (UTC). Ok, what we have at this point follows: The procedures for donation of non-free copyrighted material by its release is described at Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials. Until the donation process is complete the article should be replaced with {{Copyvio}}. The author mentioned OTRS - I am an OTRS agent, so what I need is a ticket # to confirm. Looking at the draft, the article is cited and an excellently written article that is certainly worthy of inclusion, but first things first. Let’s get the technicalities out of the way. Atsme Talk 📧 13:40, 28 November 2019 (UTC) Thanks for the fixing my oops, Primefac - we edit conflicted. 13:53, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi, Onel5969, I don't have much time now to read this draft properly to give informed opinion, the field is also out of my area. So I'd recommend getting people working in the field. But on quick skimming, the current draft needs wholesale rewrite and WP:OR review to be accepatable in mainspace. – Ammarpad (talk) 13:50, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Adding - I will assist with this draft, Onel5969 - I am a retired Advanced Underwater Scuba Instructor, and NITROX Instructor, and have worked on u/w articles with Peter Southwood who is an advanced commercial diver. Atsme Talk 📧 14:03, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
The copyvio issue seems to have been handled correctly through OTRS (see Draft talk:Underwater Domain Awareness and 2019080710003201). However, there are several other websites that include this same content, so it's hard to know who exactly is the original publisher. Apart from that, I'm still not sure this article is suitable. It seems to duplicate the topic Maritime domain awareness, it is written largely as an essay rather than an encyclopedia article, and it looks more like what we'd expect our sources to look like rather than our articles (secondary vs tertiary). It's not clear to me whether the term "Underwater Domain Awareness" is itself in common use, or if the author of this article invented the term to describe the concept. – bradv🍁 14:03, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Pinging Primefac, who revdelled it as I was writing this. – bradv🍁 14:04, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Whoops, thanks. Self-reverted. Primefac (talk) 14:36, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Wow. Thank you all so responding so quickly, and with such expertise. Looks like I pinged the right people. I'll leave this draft in all of your very capable hands. I used to do quite a bit at AfC, but have moved on the last couple of years. However, looking at the backlog, I've decided to devote some time to helping get that backlog down. Onel5969 TT me 14:22, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Well, I seem to be late to the party – hi, everyone! I hope no-one has found any problem with the OTRS ticket – I haven't checked, but I'm reasonably confident that I handled it correctly (please squeak if I didn't). The topic is not notable – a tiny handful of hits on Scholar, of which only a few are not to the work of Dr. Das; nor is the content encyclopaedic in tone or scope. I've already once moved the page to draft space for those reasons. However, there are those three or four independent mentions of the term, so a redirect to maritime domain awareness seems justifiable, and is probably the best way forward. I'd already have done that if I'd known about that article, which – duh! – I didn't. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:07, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
I didn’t see any issues with the OTRS ticket JLAN. I wonder if we really need a separate license for the image since the author released the entire work under 3.0 and is also the author of the image which was part of that work, but it’s probably better to avoid confusion, and have him license it under a separate license. I have not done an in-depth review of the article, but based on what I’ve read, it is far more detailed and broader in scope than Maritime Domain Awareness. I’d like to get a collaboration going with the author, Peter Southwood, possibly RexxS and myself after I get a chance to study it because what I found most interesting about the draft is that it sheds some light on geological and socio-economic issues, and the effects security demands have had/may have on the environment. The draft article needs work, no doubt, but I believe the topic is indeed an encyclopedic one. I’m of the mind that Maritime Domain Awareness may be the one to merge or redirect once we get all the superlatives and selling points stripped from the Draft, and get it cited properly. Just my thoughts...Atsme Talk 📧 20:20, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Hey

You restored an unconstructive edit in your Huggle rollbacking - Special:Diff/928343062. Please be more careful next time. theinstantmatrix (talk) 13:06, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi there theinstantmatrix - in Huggle, it looked I was removing that "subscribe" crap, but you must have deleted it just before I did. Thought it was strange, being an edit by you, who does great work on anti-vandalism, which is why I left the message on your talk page, just to be sure. Thanks for catching it. Onel5969 TT me 13:10, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Unwarranted reverts twice without justification

Dear fellow editor,

I noticed you reverted my edits here "twice" within 1 minute, without any comment or justification. My edits had taken several hours of my time. I am presuming this was not deliberate, perhaps autobot written by you, or accidental misuse of automated tool? Please restore my edits. Please remember to never revert without "comments", always provide valid"" justification. Treat edits by IPs in goodfaith and equal respect. Avoid reverts in quick succession, especially while repeating same mistake of offering no justification. Finally, please remember you as the user are responsible for any misuse, accidental or deliberate, of tools/bots. Just restore my edits and undo your reverts please. Keep up the enthusiasm, but please avoid such mistakes. Keep learning, rising and shining. Good luck and thank you. Regards. 58.182.172.95 (talk) 13:38, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Some of what you did were good edits, however, you tied it in with the removal of cited material, and much of what you added was uncited. Feel free to continue to add to articles, but please refrain from removing cited material, and from adding uncited material. You might also consider opening an account, so that other editors can more easily discuss matters with you.Onel5969 TT me 13:47, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Onel5969 (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

Insert your reason to be unblocked here

Decline reason:

There is no block on this account directly, and you offer no explanation with your request. If you are prevented from editing, you will need to tell the exact message that appears when you attempt to edit, along with any IP address in the message. If you do not wish to give your IP publicly, you may use WP:UTRS to give it privately. 331dot (talk) 16:38, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

@331dot: Onel5969 wasn't the one who filed this blank unblock request. It was 2405:205:1506:f4fe::2af0:e0b1 (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) (diff). —k6ka 🍁 (Talk · Contributions) 17:16, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Okay, I'm confused. Onel5969 TT me 18:11, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Guess I need to check that. Apologies for the disturbance. 331dot (talk) 18:14, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
No worries, 331dot - I think this has something to do with that ip making changes at List of heads of state of Mauritius, which should be a redirect to List of presidents of Mauritius. Since K6ka page protected it, the redirect seems to be broken, however. I can't figure out the formatting error, so if either one of you could have a look at that as well... Onel5969 TT me 18:17, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Looks like JalenFolf fixed it. (And I think that should be raised at WT:TW) —k6ka 🍁 (Talk · Contributions) 19:55, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, K6ka - never thought that the pp template would screw up the redirect template, so didn't think to move it below. Now I know. Onel5969 TT me 19:59, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
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