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DYK for Bab el-Gasus

On 29 April 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Bab el-Gasus, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the largest intact Ancient Egyptian tomb ever found, with 254 richly decorated sarcophagi, was forgotten for almost a century? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Bab el-Gasus. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Bab el-Gasus), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Maile (talk) 00:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Hook update
Your hook reached 17,533 views (730.5 per hour), making it one of the most viewed hooks of April 2022 – nice work!

theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 04:29, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Eshmunazar II sarcophagus

Hey Mr. Mischievous! I was wondering if we should nominate Eshmunazar II sarcophagus for FA. What do you think? el.ziade (talkallam) 15:15, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi Elias Ziade, definitely. All the hard work has been done, it is one of the most important inscriptions ever found in Middle Eastern archaeology, and the article represents by far the best source of information on the topic anywhere. Happy to help with further drafting as you see fit. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:36, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
Music to my ears! I have an ongoing FA, and a new article in the making. I will review this one and include you as nominator when I submit it for FA review. el.ziade (talkallam) 17:48, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
PS. I don't get to say this often, but you're doing an amazing job. el.ziade (talkallam) 17:49, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
Thank you Eli. As are you my friend. The throughness with which you address the topics is magnificent. I particularly enjoyed the quality of the content (both factual and visual) that you have brought at Royal necropolis of Byblos. I remember visiting Byblos a long time ago having been told of its great historical importance, and feeling quite confused afterwards. So little of its historical significance is visible to the visitor. But with articles like this one, it is now so much easier for the world to understand what that great place is really all about. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:08, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Ahiram

Hi buddy, thanks for the above. I'm hoping you have a good image of the sarcophagus of Ahiram. The ones on common are a bit blurry or taken from a bad angle. el.ziade (talkallam) 11:14, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

I looked at the others I have but you wouldn’t like the angles. Best I can do is: File:National Museum of Beirut, Lebanon - 49573139338.jpg which improves alignment, sharpness and brightness. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:54, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Template:National parks declared by Israel in the occupied Palestinian territories

Ahem, Golan Heights isn't "occupied Palestinian territories".... please see move-request on the talk-page, Huldra (talk) 20:14, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Busy?

Got time to whip up a quick article? Shouldn't take you too long :) Selfstudier (talk) 13:29, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Selfstudier: yes life is definitely busy (too busy at the moment...), but always happy to help. What is the topic? Onceinawhile (talk) 13:40, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Include at Status Quo a new article Status quo (Al-Aqsa mosque) (2022 Al-Aqsa Mosque clashes refers). Make sense? Selfstudier (talk) 13:43, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
@Selfstudier: it may already be covered by: Hashemite custodianship of Jerusalem holy sites? Onceinawhile (talk) 14:12, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Uh huh, that is what I mean, interesting that "Status Quo" is not really mentioned much in that, only this sentence "Leaders of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre issued a statement of support to Abdullah on 1 March 2018 after Israel shelved a proposed bill that aimed to propose new tax measures to churches in the West Bank. "Your defence of religious freedom and Your leadership, in ensuring that the Status Quo is respected and maintained, has been crucial in our ongoing attempts to guard and protect the Christian presence especially in the Holy City of Jerusalem" but that's the "other SQ", right? Maybe it needs a name change? (and an update).Selfstudier (talk) 14:21, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
I've created a redirect pending a change to the status quo ;) Iskandar323 (talk) 15:19, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Ta, before I travel further down this road, I am a little confused about something and the talk page doesn't help, I have the same query as Arminden, essentially. Afaics, Holy Sepulchre is a subject of SQ (J&B) so it can't be a subject of the new SQ, right? Assuming that is the case, are there in fact any Christian sites subject to SQ new? Or is it just Al-Aqsa? Selfstudier (talk) 17:43, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
As far as I know, status quo is an informal agreement only relating to the Dome of the Rock in its entirety, and not just Aqsa mosque. SQ does not deal with Christian churches or other Islamic shrines in Jerusalem, some have their own non-IP-related SQs. Hashemite custodianship is part of the informal unwritten SQ, which for example includes a prohibition on Jewish prayer (but not visits) at the Temple Mount-excluding western wall. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:55, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
OK, then Status quo (Al-Aqsa mosque) is not an incorrect title? Or is Status quo (Al-Aqsa) better? Just to be clear, I want to distinguish Status Quo (Jerusalem and Bethlehem) (which says Holy Selpuchre is covered). Selfstudier (talk) 09:09, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
Hmm. I need to do some reading. What I do know is that:
  • Original Status quo: The "Status Quo (Jerusalem and Bethlehem)", as we name it, is a formal documented arrangement which evolved over two centuries to regulate the use of certain Christian sites, and later two Jewish-Islamic sites.
  • 1967 Status quo: The "Status Quo" for the Al Aqsa Compound / Temple Mount is a much more recent thing, formulated in June 1967 (* Najem, T.; Molloy, M.J.; Bell, M.; Bell, J. (2017). Contested Sites in Jerusalem: The Jerusalem Old City Initiative. UCLA Center for Middle East Development (CMED). Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-1-317-21344-4. According to the arrangement formulated in June 1967, the Muslim Waqf - a local, Muslim, Palestinian institution tied to Jordan and, unofficially, since 1994, to the Palestinian Authority - manages the site. The Waqf controls the gates leading into the area (except for the Mughrabi Gate); employs guards of its choosing on the Haram/TM itself and at the entrances to it; sets the rules of permissible and prohibited behavior and dress; is responsible for general upkeep; and collects entrance fees from tourists and non-Muslim visitors to the al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock. The Waqf is also able to close the site to non-Muslim visitors in tense periods, as was the case between October 2000 and August 2003 (at which point Israel applied pressure to have it reopened). Israel prohibits the Wagf from hoisting flags on the Mount. Any renovations require prior coordination with Israeli authorities. Since the opening of the northern access to the Western Wall tunnels in September 1996 this coordination has ceased, with virtually no supervision over what goes on (even previously, supervision was not full).) It was not shared at all for almost a millennium so there didn't need to be a status quo.
Onceinawhile (talk) 09:18, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
Yes, Dayan apparently imposed it after the war Everybody seems to just refer to it as the status quo, UN included.Selfstudier (talk) 09:25, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Some sources for an article focusing on exactly what happened in June 1967 on this topic, and what happened since:

Onceinawhile (talk) 10:20, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, I will look at those (and some others). We do need an article on this, there is quite a lot gone and going on around the issue and people will most likely search "status quo" for it. Selfstudier (talk) 10:28, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
We need to find the text of the military orders promulgated by Dayan in June 1967 on the topic. They are referred to in the above sources but I haven't seen a clear citation to the original document yet. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:30, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
That book I linked up above says "Those questions wouldn’t really be settled by the Protection of Holy Places Law that Warhaftig presented to the Knesset, in a speech that still infuriates rightists because he spoke of the sanctity of the Western Wall instead of the Mount". So I looked that up and got http://www.bu.edu/mzank/Jerusalem/tx/lawofholyplaces1967.htm which doesn't help much.Selfstudier (talk) 11:02, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
Onceinawhile (talk) 11:29, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
Great! That Kattan one looks quite promising, I will dig into that one first.Selfstudier (talk) 11:37, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
The second one, a 27-page report by the International Crisis Group, is quite widely cited too. Onceinawhile (talk) 11:48, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
Right, Kattan cites it too.Selfstudier (talk) 11:54, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
You have probably seen them by now, but these are the two main sources Kattan cites re what happened in 1967:
Onceinawhile (talk) 12:49, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
Shall we go with Status Quo (Holy Esplanade)? Selfstudier (talk) 15:32, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
OK. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:52, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
Kattan says "...include Christian shrines as well.50" and the note says "This reflects the special role the King of Jordan has in issuing berats to confer authority on the religious patriarchs of the Armenian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox churches."
This] says "Under the terms of an Ottoman era treaty, Jordan, the Palestinian Authority and Israel must give a "Berat," or official edict of approval to the patriarch's election."
I usually stay clear of religious things so I am a bit in the dark about all this, on the off chance, do you know of something that explains it? If not, no worries, I will find it eventually.
Selfstudier (talk) 12:05, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
This explains what a Berat is. Onceinawhile (talk) 13:50, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
P 87 Selfstudier (talk) 14:27, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
Interesting. So this 1951 proclamation still has legal force under Israeli law? Or Israel has not annexed the Holy Esplanade and thus Israeli law is not relevant? Onceinawhile (talk) 15:13, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
Clear as mud, right? I'll let you know :) Selfstudier (talk) 15:25, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
Raghib al-Nashashibi only managed 6 months in his role as custodian and was succeeded by Hussein Khalidi. Selfstudier (talk) 15:51, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

@Makeandtoss: has reverted the move to Status Quo (Holy Esplanade), so his silence here was apparently not agreement, idk if it bothers you sufficiently to discuss it with him but I am not going to take up his suggestion of a second (redundant) article myself. Selfstudier (talk) 12:55, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

It would not be a redundant article, but a completely different one. For example, such a SQ article would focus on everything related to the 1967 status quo:
  • first and foremost a definition of it, only Jewish visits no prayer except western wall, how Jordanians and Palestinians view SQ in a broader sense while Israel views it in a narrower sense (no. of visitors/guards/etc.), you can find a recent ToI article about this
  • Sharon's entry, the intifada, Israel's attempts to change status quo and the Palestinian opposition to it
And much more relevant information to such an article would be available there, rather than in an article that focuses on Jordanian role in Jerusalem over the past century. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:04, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
Apparently SQ refers to the policy that Moshe Dayan adopted when occupying the Old City in 1967. I believe the scope of that article can be 1967-present, with focus on that policy and its local and int ramifications. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:24, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
SQ = Status Quo (Jerusalem and Bethlehem) (Status Quo is a disambiguation) refers to those holy sites listed there that were disputed rather than those not so. At that time Aqsa was not in dispute.
When the press and everyone is talking about "status quo" now, yes they are referring to the Dayan "adoption" (and I suppose Jordan's 1951 declaration) but that status quo dates back to well before then as per the history in Hashemite custodianship of Jerusalem holy sites. In fact, I think there has been a waqf administration for hundreds of years per Jerusalem Islamic Waqf. Selfstudier (talk) 09:42, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Forget about the Jerusalem and Bethlehem status quo, that SQ is exclusively Christian. Here we are talking about the other status quo term, relating to Temple Mount. Status quo concept didn’t really exist pre-1967, it was just a policy that was formulated by Israel as the occupying power; meaning it wanted to convince everyone of its occupation by claiming that it wouldn’t change anything on the ground. Articles obviously interlap, but I think separate article for the the Israeli policy and its background and ramifications is both interesting and necessary. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:39, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
As I already indicated, I will not be taking up that suggestion myself.Selfstudier (talk) 13:44, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Tendentious editing at List of largest mosques

This edit saw you adding that the Temple Mount/Al-Aqsa is in Jerusalem, State of Palestine. This is a violation of Wikipedia policy, according which East Jerusalem's status is disputed, as it is claimed by both Israel and Palestine. As you have been made aware before, I request that you refrain from further violations of WP:NPOV. Thanks. Tombah (talk) 13:04, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

I don’t feel strongly, but it is more complicated than this comment suggests. Legally it is in the occupied Palestinian territory, declared as the state of Palestine, unilaterally (i.e. illegally) annexed by Israel, but operating under a joint Palestinian-Jordan administration agreement under the status quo. That doesn’t fit into the tiny box in the table. The terminology “disputed” added in your edit is an Israeli government term, and is equally wrong. I don’t think it matters though as our readers would know what we mean, whether we say Palestine, Israel, occupied, disputed, or any other term. Onceinawhile (talk) 13:50, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
EJ is not in any more dispute as being in the occupied Palestinian territories than West Jerusalem is in dispute as being in Israel. We routinely say things in WJ are in Israel. See for example the country listed in Katamon. nableezy - 13:54, 1 June 2022 (UTC)
For choice, I prefer "claimed by" SoP rather than "in". Notice that Israel has no such claim as the territory is considered occupied and any "dispute" about East Jerusalem arises only by virtue of an illegal annex, in other words, (sovereignty) is disputed only by Israel. Selfstudier (talk) 11:58, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

PEF SWP maps coordinate systems

Hello Onceinawhile! I would to ask if by any chance you know which coordinate system was used by the PEF in the making of their maps? I am in the process of georeferencing some maps made by the Government of Palestine and I want to also add maps from the PEF, but I couldn't figure out which coordinate system is used or what is their datum. I suppose it is some WGS but I don't know which.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 11:26, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

@Bolter21: "based on a single Cassini-Soldner projection with a Central Meridian (λ0) = 34° 56' East of Greenwich. The ellipsoid of reference was the Clarke 1866." Somewhere I can't find just now says that the longitude is systematically out by a certain amount (half a minute?). Zerotalk 12:12, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Thank you Zero for saving me, because I did not know the answer. Onceinawhile (talk) 12:16, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
@Bolter21: Also, "A cartotest on the P.E.F. map revealed a block shift of 19 seconds to the west and an average discrepancy of 1.1 secs. to the north in latitude, when compared with the 1 : 100,000 maps of the Survey of Palestine." Zerotalk 12:39, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
The registration between PEF and SofP is good at Palestine Open Maps. At Amud Anan it is good for most of the country but Sheet 4 (eg. Safed) is out by about 4 km. I wrote to them about it years ago but nothing happened. Bolter21, perhaps you can try to get their attention? Zerotalk 13:04, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks Zero0000! I was actually about to ask you but then I remembered it was Onceinawhile who created the article on the SWP. Anyway I have tried to georeference a PEF sheet with several versions of Clarke 1866 but with no success. I gave up and decided to simply download someone else's work from ArcGis online. As for AmudAnan, I may try to contact them in the future about this, but I don't have much spare time for it. Thanks again!--Bolter21 (talk to me) 13:57, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

DKY

Hello! Your submission of Mixed cities at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at your nomination's entry and respond there at your earliest convenience. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! -- RoySmith (talk) 17:09, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Lehmann source

Hi there buddy, I lost access to the below work. Can you help with this? I need to verify a few things.

: Reinhard G. Lehmann: Die Inschrift(en) des Ahirom-Sarkophags und die Schachtinschrift des Grabes V in Jbeil (Byblos), 2005, el.ziade (talkallam) 23:43, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Hi Eli, I just looked and unfortunately I don’t have access at the moment either. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:06, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for checking buddy. Have a great week. el.ziade (talkallam) 11:34, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

DYK for West Bank Wall graffiti art

On 5 July 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article West Bank Wall graffiti art, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that one Palestinian man criticized the beauty of West Bank Wall graffiti art (example pictured), telling Banksy: "We don't want this wall to be beautiful. We hate it. Go home"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/West Bank Wall graffiti art. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, West Bank Wall graffiti art), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cwmhiraeth (talk) 00:02, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Hook update
Your hook reached 18,583 views (774.3 per hour), making it one of the most viewed hooks of July 2022 – nice work!

theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 06:20, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

DYK for Mixed cities

On 11 July 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Mixed cities, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Israel's mixed cities aren't really? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Mixed cities. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Mixed cities), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Amakuru (talk) 00:02, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Hook update
Your hook reached 18,644 views (776.8 per hour), making it one of the most viewed hooks of July 2022 – nice work!

theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 08:53, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Mosque/TM

The hatnote says "for the mosque" implying there is only one, there are a few, no? Mosque of the Dome of the Rock and so... Selfstudier (talk) 21:47, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes good point, thanks. Maybe it should say: "For the mosque within the compound also named Al Aqsa Mosque, see …"? Onceinawhile (talk) 22:08, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
Until the dust settles, perhaps it might be best to leave it out since it is more or less immediately explained in the lead. You are waiting on Al-Aqsa Mosque (disambiguation) doing away with the (disambiguation) part, right? Selfstudier (talk) 22:14, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
Fair enough. I am always too impatient I suspect, mostly because if I don’t tidy things up while it’s still at the top of my mind, I will likely forget later. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:34, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
In the second para it has 'the main praying hall of al-Aqsa Mosque' blue linked to Al-Aqsa Mosque, that goes to the disambiguation atm.Selfstudier (talk) 22:36, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
It's all very complicated, there is even one called Ancient (or Lower) al-Aqsa under the main. Despite the name I think it's recent.Selfstudier (talk) 22:42, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
See the Arabic article at ar:مصلى الأقصى القديم (Musalla al-aqsa al-qadim). Onceinawhile (talk) 10:06, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
The language varies a lot: I have seen some sources state explicitly that the dome of the rock is not a mosque, while yet other sources refer to a host of "mosques" on the site, which I think may include other prayer halls like the above or the Solomon's Stables, or smaller musalla, which might also be termed 'mosque' in English. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:01, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

Compiling some sources of "(al-)Qibli Mosque"

Since several people claimed that Qibli was too obscure of a name for the mosque building, I managed to dig up some news sources using Qibli: BBC, Al-Arabiya, the Jordan Times, the Jordanian government, Al-Jazeera, Middle East Eye, Middle East Monitor. I was going to ask you if there was decent amount of scholarly sources with Qibli as well. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 06:55, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Mellohi!: thanks for this. I have had a go at finding some scholarly (and governmental) publications and have added them to the article. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:11, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
I would appreciate it if you could share any reliable scholarly publications that are using the term. Sharing is caring. I am curious to know when, and by whom, this term was first used. Tombah (talk) 19:33, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
I put them here. I will have a look to see what is the earliest I can find. In English and Arabic. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:15, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
Here is one talking about the nearby stairs being described in Arabic as “al-Maqam al-Qibli” as early as 952: Elad, A. (1995). Medieval Jerusalem and Islamic Worship: Holy Places, Ceremonies, Pilgrimage. Islamic History and Civilization : Studies and Texts, Vol 8. E.J. Brill. p. 117. ISBN 978-90-04-10010-7. The southern set of stairs is called "al-Maqam al-Qibli" as early as 952.
In the Levant Qibli can be translated as Southern. It strikes me as quite likely that the al-Qibli terminology was used for the Jami'a in early Arabic sources as a descriptive term. Like medieval writings in most languages, there may well not have been an "official name", but rather it was likely described creatively in many ways in many sources. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:02, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

looking for UN document

Can you locate "Addendum to Definition of a 'Refugee' under paragraph 11 of the General Assembly Resolution of 11 December 1948" (advice from UN Legal Advisor on 29 May 1951)? It is cited as document A/AC.25/W/61/Add.1 or sometimes just as W/61/Add.1. Incidentally, another cited document is here. Zerotalk 02:12, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

No matter, I found it here. Zerotalk 03:04, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Titles like US and state terrorism

Hi. I noticed in a discussion here Talk:Israel and the apartheid analogy/Archive 42#Requested move 4 December 2021 that you gave example of United States and state terrorism as article title for contested issue. If I may ask, can you think of some more examples? I’m dealing with what may be, or perceived to be, a similar situation. Thanks! ProfGray (talk) 05:58, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Hi @ProfGray: in my opinion there are two options:
  • Articles such as those on Template:Disinformation, where Wikipedia rightly takes a clear POV - supported by mainstream sources - that the allegations are 100% false or else have zero evidence supporting them. Titles may be structured as "X myth", "Disinformation regarding X", or "Allegations of X".
  • Articles where Wikipedia does not take a view and attempts to discuss the topic entirely neutrally, for which an "X and Y" type title structure is usual. United States and State Terrorism is an example of this, as is Environment and sexual orientation.
Onceinawhile (talk) 09:42, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

1841 Al-Aqsa map

That image you dug up is more than a little interesting: it seems to show the Jamy al-Aqsa with three separately named wings, corresponding to the 'Mosk of Omar', 'Mosk of Abu Bakr' and 'Mosk of Moghrabins' - it really shows how there is no end to the things that can be translated into 'mosque' by Europeans - even the wing of a prayer hall within a mosque complex can be called a mosque. We really face whole layers of vaguery upon vaguery in the sourcing. Curious to know what the Arabic terminology for these divisions (if they ever existed) might have been, though not sure the building would have been conceptualised like this. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:48, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: I agree. Would be very interesting. I think we can find out from here - this is Mujir al-Din's description, by far the most detailed ever published. How good is your Arabic?!
Onceinawhile (talk) 07:31, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
An English version is here: Williams, G.; Willis, R. (1849). "EXTRACTS FROM MEJIR-ED-DIN: DESCRIPTION OF THE MESJID EL-AKSA". The Holy City: Historical, Topographical, and Antiquarian Notices of Jerusalem. J.W. Parker.
It would be valuable to be able to pinpoint these English extracts within the Arabic text, so we can identify the exact Arabic translations.
Onceinawhile (talk) 08:16, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
And here is the even earlier Muhammad al-Idrisi, translated into French: Sous la domination musulmane il fut agrandi, et c'est (aujourd'hui) la grande mosquée connue par les Musulmans sous le nom de Mesdjid el-Acsa. Il n'en existe pas au monde qui l'égale en grandeur, si l'on en excepte toutefois la grande mosquée de Cordoue en Andalousie ; car, d'après ce qu'on rapporte, le toit de cette mosquée est plus grand que celui de la Mesdjid el-Acsa. Au surplus, l'aire de cette dernière forme un parallelogramme dont la hauteur est de deux cents brasses (ba'a), et le base de cents quatre-vingts. La moitié de cet espace, celle qui est voisin du Mihrab, est couverte d'un toit (ou plutôt d'un dôme) en pierres soutenu par plusieurs rangs de colonnes ; l'autre est à ciel ouvert. Au centre de l'édifice est un grand dôme connu sous le nom de Dôme de la roche; il fut orné d'arabesques en or et d'autres beaux ouvrages, par les soins de divers califes musulmans. Le dôme est percé de quatre portes; en face de celle qui est à l'occident, on voit l'autel sur lequel les enfants d'Israël offraient leurs sacrifices; auprès de la porte orientale est l'église nommée le saint des saints, d'une construction élégante ; au midi est une chapelle qui était à l'usage des Musulmans; mais les chrétiens s'en sont emparés de vive force et elle est restée en leur pouvoir jusqu'à l'époque de la composition du présent ouvrage. Ils ont converti cette chapelle en un couvent où résident des religieux de l'ordre des templiers, c'est-à-dire des serviteurs de la maison de Dieu. (Williams, G.; Willis, R. (1849). "Account of Jerusalem during the Frank Occupation, extracted from the Universal Geography of Edrisi. Climate III. sect. 5. Translated by P. Amédée Jaubert. Tome 1. pp. 341—345.". The Holy City: Historical, Topographical, and Antiquarian Notices of Jerusalem. J.W. Parker.)
I will see if I can find it in Arabic.
Onceinawhile (talk) 08:22, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
Here it is in Arabic: [1] Onceinawhile (talk) 08:25, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
The French is worth noting, treating the mesdjid unambiguously as a single structure: At the center of the building is a large dome known as the Dome of the Rock. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:31, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
And it has unmentioned detail on the Qibli chapel - noting specifically that it was converted into a 'convent' by the templars during the period of their occupation. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:33, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
I'm note sure how much detail Mujir al-Din goes into on actual architecture - it's more a historical narrative. But page 406 of volume 2 is about the current site's construction. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:26, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
The English version of Mujir al-Din has a key paragraph: xxi. Observation. I have at the commencement called attention to the fact that the place now called by the name Aksa (i. e. the most distant), is the Mosk [Jamia] properly so called, at the southern extremity of the area, where is the Minbar and the great Mihrab. But in fact Aksa is the name of the whole area enclosed within the walls, the dimensions of which I have just given, for the Mosk proper [Jamia], the Dome of the Rock, the Cloisters, and other buildings, are all of late construction, and Mesjid el-Aksa is the correct name of the whole area. It would be great to find this in Arabic. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:35, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
I have found the following from page 360 onwards:
وعرضه شرقا بغرب من السور الشرقي المطل على مقارباب الرحمة الى صدر الرواق الغربي الذي هوسفل مجمع المدرسة التنكرية أربعمائة ذراع وسمة أذرع بذراع العمل غيرعرض السورين و تنبیه وقد تقدم عند ابتداء ذكر صفة المسجد الاقصى ان المتعارف عند الناس ان الأقصى من جهة القبلة الجامع المبني في صدر المسجد الذي به المنبروالمحراب الكمروحة مقة الحال أن الأقصى اسم لجميع المسجد مادارعليه السور وذكرنباسه. ناطولا وعرضا فان هذا البناء الموجود في صدرالسعد وغيره من فية الحرة والأروقة وغيرها محدثة والمراد بالمسجد الاقصی هوجمع مادار عليه السورما تقدم ، وأماصحين الحرة الشريفة فطوله قبلة بشام میں السور القبلى الذي هو بين الدرجتين القوانين مر بالقياس فيما بين باب الحرة الشرقي وفية السلسلة الى السور الشمالي المشرف على جهة باب حطة مائتان وخمسة وثلاثون ذراعارعرضه شرفا بغرب من السور الشرقي المشرف على الزيتون عند قبة الطومارالی السورالغربي المقابل للمدرسة الشريفة السلطانة مائة وتسعة وثمانون ذراعا كل ذلك بذراع العمل وتقدم ذکرذرع الجامع الأقصى وارتفاع قية العمرة ودائرها قبل
Onceinawhile (talk) 08:46, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
Lord knows where the British survey got their information from in labelling the different parts of the building - quite possibly it might have been the local guides. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:57, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Qibli

Idk whether you will see this before you yourself see the close/notification at Qibli, RM review closer is going back to status quo ante but asks how long you still need for traffic analysis. Selfstudier (talk) 09:42, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

DYK for Phoenician arrowheads

On 13 August 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Phoenician arrowheads, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the earliest-known Phoenician inscriptions (examples pictured) were found near Bethlehem? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Phoenician arrowheads. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Phoenician arrowheads), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Maile (talk) 00:02, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Hook update
Your hook reached 12,621 views (525.9 per hour), making it one of the most viewed hooks of August 2022 – nice work!

theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 16:31, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you!

Hi! I see you just created the article for the infamous Johnson vs. Jeffries fight, which, believe it or not, I was about to create in a few days! I want to thank you for that! Takes a load off me. Now I can concentrate on various other articles I have in mind. Here is a fight article I created, I hope you enjoy it: Ray Mancini vs. Bobby Chacon. Thank you and God bless you! sincerely yours, Antonio Rocky Marcianooooo!! I am not! Martin (tell me, was I knocked out?) 12:38, 15 August, 2022 (UTC)

Hi AntonioMartin, thank you. I am so pleased that you like it. I couldn’t believe there was no article on it when I first tried to read about it. Such a huge milestone in global sport, in African American history and in the history of minorities more broadly.
And thanks for the Mancini Chacon article. The story of both fighters after that fight is very sad. Onceinawhile (talk) 13:13, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Survey of Palestine

https://academic.oup.com/book/36964 is worth a look (Ch 3). Selfstudier (talk) 13:35, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, that looks to be an excellent article. The abstract is spot on. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:15, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Polis, you added links pointing to the disambiguation pages Tetrapolis and Hexapolis.

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Hello

hi how are you @Onceinawhile , can you take a look here and review this article and if it is ok can you move it to main space thanks a lot we have an Arabic article here عمر بن عبدالعزيز الزهراني (talk) 07:43, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I am not against the article's creation, as I think it passes the WP:GNG criteria, with various articles focused on him in English, Arabic and Turkish. See for example https://www.dailysabah.com/arts/ali-al-suleiman-the-syrian-translator-behind-turkish-soap-operas-conquering-the-arab-world/news
However, it will need consensus, because of these previous discussions:
Onceinawhile (talk) 07:57, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
Thank you @Onceinawhile for your kind response and your seemingly neutral words. عمر بن عبدالعزيز الزهراني (talk) 08:04, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
Yes, @Onceinawhile as you said, there are different articles about the person, and perhaps the article should be re-created  article from scratch  as you said.
Can you start it in your draft please عمر بن عبدالعزيز الزهراني (talk) 08:06, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
No, I do not have time. Sorry.
Please read WP:UNDELETE carefully, and open a request there. Onceinawhile (talk) 09:52, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
This account has been blocked as a sock of a very prolific self-promoter. OhNoitsJamie Talk 23:05, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Arab–Israeli conflict to Arab–Israeli War (disambiguation)

Why did you change a bunch of redirects to point to a dab page when we have a main article? I think that's wrong. Srnec (talk) 15:46, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Srnec: it was tidying up the specific redirects that clearly relate to Arab–Israeli War (disambiguation). Note: this is not Arab–Israeli conflict (disambiguation).
If you don’t think that disamb page should exist, it can be put up for AfD. But while it does exist, redirects like Arab-Israeli War and Arab–Israeli War should obviously point there. The dab page has a number of important functions, for example to direct readers who were looking for articles on the individual 1948, 1967 or 1973 wars to the correct place. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:46, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
You made Arab–Israeli War point to the dab page, but that's wrong. The dab page should be moved to the base name. In any case, that change was reverted by MB. You also neglected to change the hatnote at Arab–Israeli conflict after making that change. So now Arab-Israeli War is treated differently from Arab–Israeli War. I think what you really want to do is propose a move of the dab page. Srnec (talk) 19:15, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
Yes, any change like this should be discussed. It is not clear to me that Arab-Israeli War should point to the dab because there may be a WP:Primary Topic for this term. MB 19:33, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
OK, I have figured out how to use Twinkle and have opened a few discussions at WP:RFD. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:56, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

DYK for Jack Johnson vs. James J. Jeffries

On 17 October 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Jack Johnson vs. James J. Jeffries, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that The New York Times claimed that if Johnson beat Jeffries (fight pictured), black people would "misinterpret his victory as justifying claims to much more than mere physical equality with their white neighbors"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Jack Johnson vs. James J. Jeffries. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Jack Johnson vs. James J. Jeffries), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Vanamonde 12:02, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

DYK for Geographia Sacra seu Phaleg et Canaan

On 29 October 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Geographia Sacra seu Phaleg et Canaan, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Bochart's 1646 Geographia Sacra seu Phaleg et Canaan was the first full-length book devoted to the Phoenicians? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Geographia Sacra seu Phaleg et Canaan. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Geographia Sacra seu Phaleg et Canaan), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cwmhiraeth (talk) 00:02, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious
Five years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:21, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Arab Christians, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Church of Jerusalem.

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Hi Onceinawhile,

This is to let you know that File:Survey of Palestine 1942-1958 1-100,000 sheet index georef.png, a featured picture you nominated, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for December 31, 2022. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2022-12-31. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.2% of all FPs. Currently celebrating his 600th FP! 04:12, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Composite map of Palestine assembled from sheets produced by the Survey of Palestine and the Survey of Israel

The Survey of Palestine was the government department responsible for the survey and mapping of Palestine during the period of British Mandatory Palestine. The survey department was established in 1920 in Jaffa, and moved to the outskirts of Tel Aviv in 1931. It established the Palestine grid. In early 1948, the British mandate appointed a temporary director general of the Survey Department for the impending Jewish state; this became the Survey of Israel. The maps produced by the survey have been widely used in "Palestinian refugee cartography" by scholars documenting the 1948 Palestinian exodus, notably in Salman Abu Sitta's Atlas of Palestine and Walid Khalidi's All That Remains. This composite map of the region of Palestine was assembled from twenty-four separate 1:100,000 sheets published by the Survey for Palestine and its successor, the Survey of Israel, between 1942 and 1958.

Map credit: Survey of Palestine and the Survey of Israel; assembled by DutchTreat

Recently featured:
Onceinawhile Thank you for the original nomination of my work on this map. This is my first one of my pictures that has received the Feature Picture designation. I'm looking forward to seeing it as POTD. Happy editing! - DutchTreat (talk) 18:56, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
Hi @DutchTreat: I am really pleased that your work is getting the recognition it deserves. Thanks again for the great work. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:02, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

DYK for International Campaign to Save the Monuments of Nubia

On 24 November 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article International Campaign to Save the Monuments of Nubia, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the global coalition to save Abu Simbel, Philae and many other temples led to the creation of the modern list of World Heritage Sites? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/International Campaign to Save the Monuments of Nubia. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, International Campaign to Save the Monuments of Nubia), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Amakuru (talk) 00:02, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

DYK for World Heritage Convention

On 24 November 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article World Heritage Convention, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the global coalition to save Abu Simbel, Philae and many other temples led to the creation of the modern list of World Heritage Sites? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/International Campaign to Save the Monuments of Nubia. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, World Heritage Convention), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Amakuru (talk) 00:02, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

African Union Barnstar 🌟

The African Union Barnstar of National Merit
Hereby I award you this African Union Barnstar for International Campaign to Save the Monuments of Nubia. Nice work! BorgQueen (talk) 01:50, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

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Your Did You Know

Thanks again for your amazing work on Geographica Sacra and other articles. I started a draft on Phoenician Studies, which is sitting in a drawer for years now. I would like you to help me develop it if you have the time. I will invite other users on the WikiPeojecrt, maybe it will help make it more active. el.ziade (talkallam) 11:00, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

@Elias Ziade: thank you. I am glad you like it - I found it fascinating to learn the foundational importance of the work; I had seen many passing mentions of the work, but had previously not fully understood.
I would be delighted to help with a Phoenician Studies article. The lede of History of Phoenicia has a couple of good paragraphs which should be useful.
On a related note, I have a language theory I would be interested in your view on. From all the work I have done on Canaanite and Aramaic inscriptions It seems illogical to think that these widely distributed Phoenician/Punic languages "disappeared". The formal written script was clearly quickly replaced by standardized Arabic script, just as the Greek-inspired Old Coptic script quickly replaced Egyptian script, or the invented Korean Hangul replaced Chinese script. But just like elsewhere, surely the spoken language continued, and evolved, which seems evident from the modern diglossia. From this it follows that modern Tunisian Arabic or Lebanese Arabic, and all other Mediterranean Arabic dialects, are not just "regional descendants of Classic Arabic", but are also "descendants of local Punic / Phoenician dialects, which over time took in heavy influence from Classic Arabic". This would also explain how "Arabic" took hold so quickly across such a huge region. I think all this is self-evident, but most sources which touch on this are stuck in the false dilemma nationalistic argument of Phoenicianism-verus-Arabism, when the truth is a 2,000 year unification of the two. I have yet to find a source explaining it clearly and in a balanced way.
Onceinawhile (talk) 11:48, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
This is a thorny trail habibi. You said it yourself, any attempt to include material that does not adhere to the mainstream narrative will be dealt with accusations of ultranationalism. Early Phoenicianist rhetoric was very aggressive, haughty, and confrontational. The proponents were so high on their flimsy theories and relied heavily on the very scant archeological and historical evidence that was available at the time. Tales of a grandiose past transpired in the nascent republic’s politics and the immature ideology clashed with the pan-Arabist camp sooo tactlessly and made irreparable damage that we still suffer from today. We are still living, 100 years after that misstep, in the shadow of the winning camp, thanks to Edde and Corm and their haughtiness and idiocy. Their velvety disdain for everything common, born in the salons of the Beiruti “elite”, made the winning camp itself disdain any notion of Phoenician origins and influence, and mock its proponents. Did you know that after the completion of the restoration of the National Museum of Beirut in the 90s, the statue of “Mother Phoenicia” holding the alphabet, was covered up? It wasn’t until recently that the tarp-like cover was removed, probably because it was collecting dust. A museum worker actually told me it was there so not to anger Arab (oil-rich) visitors (at the time tourism was still a prospect lol). I don’t know where you come from, but “fini2é” is used scornfully in Lebanon, this is how bad it is. I know that some of my friends who are aware of my work here, and who have the curiosity to look up my contributions, will be so disappointed when they see my effort on the topic.
Back to our topic, I am not aware of any works pushing in that direction. And if there are, presenting the theory should be tackled from a wide standpoint, and not have the starting point as Lebanon and Phoenicianism. I had little interest in following up on any research in this regard for the reasons stated above. I am sure many have addressed the grammatical disparities in Levantine, Egyptian, and other dialects.
I will be however at your disposal, and I will try to find the time to read up. Push some material may way when you find interesting stuff. XO el.ziade (talkallam) 10:14, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
PS: I read a while back an article about how Arabic is in fact at least four distinct languages (like Dutch and German or Romanesque languages) and the MSA is the thread that holds them together. Will see if I can find it. el.ziade (talkallam) 10:19, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
PPS: Some users here completely ignore my invitation to the WikiProject. This is how bad it is... (ie:Hans van Deukeren). Also please use an archive bot for your talk page 😂 el.ziade (talkallam) 10:21, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
@Elias Ziade: thank you for the above. I enjoyed reading it; it is a refreshing and clear take on it all, and has helped me further conceptualize the sentiment that exists around this topic. I like the perspective that the early 20th century Phoenician nationalism has been a significant setback for a balanced approach to the country's heritage. It must be right.
I have always felt that the biggest of the many mistakes was the attempt to position the region's Phoenician heritage as exclusive to the Maronite community. That dragged the topic into the realm of modern ethnic politics, and because of the early Maronite political dominance, it was significantly more charged than for example the Coptic nationalists' attempts to co-opt Pharaonic history.
Hopefully the ongoing work of the global academic community will continue to neutralize the topic, but there are problems there too given the deeply-held preconceptions based exclusively on early modern interpretations of classical and biblical sources.
Onceinawhile (talk) 13:55, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Hey buddy. I just noticed @Zlogicalape: who might have a say about this. He is also a skilled argumentator. Zlodicalape, what do you think about Onceinawhile’s input on MSA and regional dialects? el.ziade (talkallam) 23:36, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Donald Trump and handshakes has been accepted

Donald Trump and handshakes, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

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DYK for Axial parallelism

On 21 December 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Axial parallelism, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the axial parallelism (diagram pictured) of the Earth's tilted axis is the reason we have winter, spring, summer and fall? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Axial parallelism. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Axial parallelism), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

-- RoySmith (talk) 00:02, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Request

Hello Oncenawhile. I’m looking for CO 733/190/3, any idea where I can find a free and online accessible version? Page 8 specifically. Thanks! Makeandtoss (talk) 11:58, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi @Makeandtoss: in my experience the Colonial Office papers have rarely been digitized, unlike the Cabinet Office papers which are often already available. I looked around in a few different ways and I don't think this specific paper is available anywhere.
If you are willing to pay for it, you can go here https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C822116 and click on "request a copy".
Onceinawhile (talk) 12:20, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy Holidays

Happy Holidays
Hello, I wish you the very best during the holidays. And I hope you have a very happy 2023! Bruxton (talk) 19:01, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Eleutheropolis / Bayt Jibrin

Onceinawhile, it was a good thing to consolidate the pages Eleutheropolis and Bayt Jibrin under one title, as you did, since both pages referred to the same site. I would, however, suggest that in the section entitled "Name" you add the name of the Roman Emperor who gave to the city its Greek name "Eleutherpolis." A suggested edit might be: "In the year 200, Roman Emperor Septimius Severus gave it the status of a city under a new Greek name, Eleutheropolis, meaning 'City of the Free', and its inhabitants were given the rank of Roman citizens under the laws of ius italicum."[1][2] This gives greater historical context to the section. Keep up the good work!

References

  1. ^ Negev, Avraham; Gibson, Shimon (2001). Archaeological Encyclopedia of the Holy Land. Continuum. p. 78. ISBN 978-0-8264-1316-1.
  2. ^ Murphy-O'Connor, Jerome (28 February 2008). The Holy Land: An Oxford Archaeological Guide from Earliest Times to 1700. OUP Oxford. pp. 217–ff. ISBN 978-0-19-152867-5.

Davidbena (talk) 00:09, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you David. I have made the change you have suggested. I hope you are doing well - happy new year and all the best for the year ahead. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:25, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries

Perhaps you should take out that 56% from the introduction, which is clearly wrong (260,000 out of almost 700,000 is much less than 56 per cent). Take a look at this table: Aliyah#Early statehood (1948–1960) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.28.186.184 (talk) 07:12, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Casablanca Protocol

On 15 January 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Casablanca Protocol, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the Casablanca Protocol was the only binding instrument of the Arab League that addressed the status of Palestinian refugees? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Casablanca Protocol. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Casablanca Protocol), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Amakuru (talk) 00:03, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Eshmunazar II sarcophagus

Hey buddy, ready to submit this to FA? el.ziade (talkallam) 00:04, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi Elie, yes – it seems in good shape. Want to do as a joint nom? Onceinawhile (talk) 00:13, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Yeah let’s do it. I’m not home for the weekend. I’ll go over it one last time and will get back to you. Let’s make it happen this time though 😂 el.ziade (talkallam) 10:25, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Writer's Barnstar
Mandate for Palestine is a truly spectacular article, thank you so much for your wonderful work. Toadspike (talk) 02:48, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Shrine of Husayn's Head

On 27 January 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Shrine of Husayn's Head, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the demolition of the Shrine of Husayn's Head, probably the most important Shi'a Muslim shrine in Israel, may have been related to efforts to transfer Palestinians out of the country? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Shrine of Husayn's Head. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Shrine of Husayn's Head), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

-- RoySmith (talk) 00:03, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

House arrest

Have you come to a conclusion as to why there's such a gaping inconsistency between the MEE account of how Haim/Chaim was charged and later released on house arrest, and no mention of this whatsoever in other accounts? Iskandar323 (talk) 05:59, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

The roving transliteration is a nuisance, but this piece may elaborate (I'm not subscribed). Iskandar323 (talk) 06:02, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
@Iskandar323: thanks – I noticed the same, some confused accounts – especially the recent ones. The transliteration thing was a big problem – I had to find his name in Hebrew before I could find the sources to write the article. Most detailed coverage in Hebrew from what I can see. Onceinawhile (talk) 06:57, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Colorization

Hello there. I'm not sure if the colorization of historical pictures is appropriate, mainly because it could be done in different ways/colors, which sort of makes them subjective. Not to mention the loss of the feeling of historicity if I may say. They could be colorized but uploaded as different files rather than overwritten on the original ones. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:07, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi Makeandtoss, you’re right - probably separate files is best. Onceinawhile (talk) 13:03, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Belat temple

On 12 March 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Belat temple, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that an unidentified ancient temple may be the finest example of a "high place" in the Galilee? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Belat temple. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Belat temple), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 12:02, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Hook update
Your hook reached 7,410 views (617.5 per hour), making it one of the most viewed hooks of March 2023 – nice work!

GalliumBot (talk • contribs) (he/it) 03:27, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

March songs
my story today

Thank you, interesting! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

I see that you have done a number of recent edits that replace things like [[Area B]] with [[Palestinian enclaves|Area B]]. This goes against the guidance at WP:NOTBROKEN (which I suggest you read if you haven't; it doesn't say quite what people assume from the name.) We don't want to replace redirects with pipes like that; the link to the redirect is simpler and will likely serve us better in the long term (such as if there is reason to create an article specifically on Area B.)

Please review your recent edits and undo ones that are of this nature. Thanks! --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:55, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @NatGertler: thanks for your message. There are two reasons for the changes: (1) the Palestine topic is almost certainly not the PTOPIC for such generic terms as “Area A” and “Area B”, and (2) there are no sources which cover the Palestine-related Area A and Area B independently. So there is no chance of Area A and Area B ever becoming independent articles on the topic of Palestine. They should be freed up for disambiguation if ever required. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:53, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
If your goal is to eliminate an inappropriate redirect, you may want to put that in your edit summaries; as it is, the summaries make it look like you're against redirects in general. --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:13, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
Thank you, agreed. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:14, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Award

The Ancient Scripts award
Many thanks for your detailed and precise work to improve the encyclopedia's coverage of ancient scripts, particularly in Decipherment of cuneiform scripts! पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 13:36, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Achaemenid royal inscriptions

On 20 April 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Achaemenid royal inscriptions, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the Achaemenid royal inscriptions (one pictured) at Persepolis allowed for the initial decipherment of cuneiform? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Achaemenid royal inscriptions. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Achaemenid royal inscriptions), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

BorgQueen (talk) 00:02, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Eurgh

You've edited this relatively recently. Is there anything worth saving, or is it unredeemable? Iskandar323 (talk) 19:04, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: I haven’t read it in full (I believe my edit was just updating a link), but it looks like a very good candidate for deletion.
On a related note, at some point I would like to create a new article summarizing the scholarly efforts to bridge the narratives on the conflict (see WP:IPCOLLPREC), but I would need to find a meta source doing the same. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:23, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Great articles

Just wanted to say that Decipherment of cuneiform and Ancient text corpora are great and interesting articles! Artem.G (talk) 21:17, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Hey, sorry for bothering you, but you worked a lot with decipherment and related articles - maybe you saw somewhere any free image of unopened papyrus scroll? I found only this one on commons, but it's completely different. And all hundreds of photos of papyrus are of opened scrolls or damaged fragments. Thanks! Artem.G (talk) 13:47, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
Hi @Artem.G: sorry no I haven't; not surprisingly as the British Museum website says it was only on display for a few years. I just looked at Curzon's book on Levantine monasteries,[2] as the papyrus was seemingly discovered by him. But this book[3] suggests it is a copy of the Book of the Dead. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:05, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

FYI

Uploaded image deletion discussion: [4] Iskandar323 (talk) 08:15, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Palestine Open Maps

They are advertising a major upgrade. Zerotalk 14:45, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Zero0000: thanks – I noticed that yesterday when using it to check some maps. Looks good, albeit a little buggy on my system. They added in a bunch of cross-links to major websites on the villages, although not to wikipedia from what I could see. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:09, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Nabatean script

Is it really true that the great majority of Nabatean inscriptions are found in the Sinai? The capital and most famous site, Petra, is in Jordan. AnonMoos (talk) 22:12, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@AnonMoos: I was surprised too, but the source is crystal clear. See the pdf here. It seems to be because the term "Nabatean" is used as a synonym for "of Arabia Petraea". Onceinawhile (talk) 22:21, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
That article says:

"Sinai, for example, is a major source of Nabataean inscriptions: the corpus of M. E. Stone contains 3,851 Nabataean items! But most were written by individuals who had no connection with Nabataea itself during the period of the Nabataean kingdom or its immediate aftermath and they may not normally have spoken Aramaic. The texts have generally been thought to have been written long after Nabataea as such disappeared."

In other words, those inscriptions were in Nabatean script, but were mostly not written by people affiliated with the Nabataean kingdom as such. I think it would be good to very briefly explain this on the article. AnonMoos (talk) 21:39, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
Hi AnonMoos, I agree. Healey is saying that most inscriptions called “Nabatean” are misleadingly labelled. The only reason I didn’t add that to the article is that it seems like it might be a controversial statement so it would be ideal to find other sources to confirm it. In the meantime perhaps we could add it in-line attributed to Healey? Onceinawhile (talk) 21:59, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for adding necessary info. AnonMoos (talk) 21:06, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Dubious claims

See this and this. Note that Stripling is a senior member of Associates for Biblical Research, which is a literalist organization that is (at a minimum) soft on creationism. I've often wondered why Israel grants excavation permits to people like that. Zerotalk 02:00, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Interesting, thank you Zero0000. Certainly looks dubious to me… Onceinawhile (talk) 06:11, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
Heh: “We’ve had many months to study those scans, so when someone looks at them for the first time, it may take time for their eyes to acclimate" Thankfully we have Twitterati translating that for us: "Another way of saying: There probably aren't really any letters on this piece of lead, but if you stare at it long enough you'll see what you want to." 😊 Huldra (talk) 23:06, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
Once I attended a seminar on human pattern perception. The speaker told us that a message can be heard when Neil Armstrong's words on the moon are played backwards. They played it but nobody could make out any message. Then the speaker told us that the message is "man will spacewalk" and played it again. This time the message was as clear as if it was spoken plainly. The difference was startling. Zerotalk 04:04, 16 May 2023 (UTC)
By the way, on the subject of ancient inscriptions, I wondered if you would be interested in helping at Ancient text corpora – it is supposed to be the ultimate combination of numbers and history. The idea is to quantify all known writing prior to 300 AD – in other words put a numerical boundary around all ancient human knowledge that has come down to us.
It was built mostly using the estimates of German scholar Carsten Peust. Peust stated that he didn’t know enough about certain corpora, so he left them out. Onceinawhile (talk) 06:19, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

On a president of Wikipedia

In re Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy/Proposed amendment (May 2023), CC FenrisAureus.

I've had an idea bouncing in my head for something like this for the better part of a decade. I wouldn't call it "president", maybe "advocate-in-chief". To me the core of it isn't anything to do with appealing ArbCom decisions, but the basic problem that, when the general public has a question about Wikipedia, they tend to go to the WMF, which doesn't actually have authority over content. There isn't really anyone out there who can speak on behalf of the community of editors. When there's Twitter drama over a deletion or removal, you get 20 random editors speaking over one another to explain it, with no guarantee they even get it right. So I think it would be interesting to have some elected person whose primary job is to speak on behalf of the community, and who would also have a role within the community to resolve potential failures of the system—except without the power to formally overturn. The way I see it, for anyone who could meet whatever lofty standard we'd set for such an office, if they were to say, "Dear ArbCom: Respectfully, I think in your recent decision you may have erred in imposing a topic ban on User:Example without discussing the mitigating evidence presented during the case, and urge you to discuss this matter further with that consideration in mind", one imagines ArbCom would take such a statement quite seriously. Likewise, in the event of any constitutional crisis, their proposed solution would be taken very seriously as a first among equals. I wouldn't make it a 1-year term, though; better 2 or 3. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 22:46, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Tamzin: very well said. I agree with your explanation completely. It would help greatly with public advocacy. And would be a check-and-balance on various elements of our system. The person would almost certainly end up on the Foundation's board as well. Onceinawhile (talk) 03:36, 20 May 2023 (UTC)
Hmm. I don't think a cetacean is needed, -Jimmy Wales is in the offing, but this is sensible. Perhaps an ombudsthinkster elected for that sin-dickering investigative role/roll in/amidst the endless waves/waifs of wikiworrying. Nishidani (talk) 08:24, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Yousef Munayyer

Greetings. Little over a month ago, you reverted a section I had written on his page detailing his spat with Sean Hannity concerning the Summer 2014 conflict between Israel and Hamas. Your justification was that it was "non-notable and written in an unbalanced manner." Considering that what I wrote was not editorialized (that is, written in such a way as to be construed as supporting a particular point of view), and that the back-and-forth was covered by various news outlets (https://www.google.com/search?q=hannity+munayyer+hamas&rlz=1CATATK_enUS1026&oq=hannity+munayyer+hamas&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160l2.5048j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8), how can you argue in good faith that my content was non-notable and unbalanced? NavyBlueSunglasses (talk) 03:44, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi NavyBlueSunglasses, because the article "Hannity shouts at Palestinian guest" was notable for Hannity losing his cool, not for anything Munayyer did or said. I don’t believe this incident warrants taking up 25% of Munayyer’s article, per WP:DUE. Perhaps it could be summarized down to a single sentence? Onceinawhile (talk) 07:08, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
NavyBlueSunglasses (talk) 16:33, 2 June 2023 (UTC) Ok, I understand. Sorry about that.

DYK nomination of Ein Samiya

Hello! Your submission of Ein Samiya at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at your nomination's entry and respond there at your earliest convenience. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Ffranc (talk) 10:57, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Ancient text corpora

On 18 June 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Ancient text corpora, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that all known writing in Ancient Hebrew totals just 300,000 words, versus 9.9 million in Akkadian? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Ancient text corpora. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Ancient text corpora), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Aoidh (talk) 00:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Need any help

Hey buddy, just wondering if there's anything I can help with. I am sporadically here, and I see you're quite busy creating and inventorying inscription articles, among other things. Let me know if there's something I can do. el.ziade (talkallam) 13:24, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Elias Ziade: my plan is to get Canaanite and Aramaic inscriptions to be the best available repository of the notable inscriptions, with each inscription or set of inscriptions having its own article including precise information on its discovery and an image of the text.
The challenge is being "comprehensive" - to my mind that means including all known inscriptions contained in the published "selected" collections. That doesn't mean CIS or TADAE, which intended to include all inscriptions regardless of their notability; it means just KAI, KI, NE, TSSI and NSI, which only covered the most important examples. I have now identified all of these - almost all have rows in the table already (albeit some still with a blank name, or black or red text), and the ones that don't have now been added to the talk page (the most recent talk comment). Some of these may be able to be grouped together rather than needing new individual articles for all, but we need to see how the sources deal with them first. If you ever find yourself with a spare hour and would like to create one of these articles, it would be great.
It could help support a meaningful improvement in scholarship in the area, allowing readers to get a clearer and broader feel for the hard historical evidence of this group of cultures. What I have found most interesting is sorting the table by date discovered - it allows you to follow the evolution of this area of study, and see how various the scholarly consensuses were formed in the area. I suspect that some mistakes were made early on that were never reassessed in light of the available evidence in more modern times...
You are doing great work with the sanctuary of Kharayeb and other similar articles. There are still a few of these important locations without articles - one of the most notable being the Ayaa Necropolis. And do let me know how else I can be helpful on supporting the effort to get the sarcophagus to FA.
Onceinawhile (talk) 21:31, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

CS1 error on Zionism, race and genetics

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New article

Thirty-seventh government of Israel and the Palestinians Chip in, please.. Selfstudier (talk) 16:45, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Nomination of Zionism, race and genetics for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Zionism, race and genetics is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zionism, race and genetics until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

jps (talk) 18:42, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Ein Samiya

On 15 July 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Ein Samiya, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Ein Samiya (pictured), which provides the water for Taybeh, the first beer brewed in Palestine, was depopulated in 2023 after harassment by neighboring Israeli settlers? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Ein Samiya. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Ein Samiya), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Z1720 (talk) 00:02, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Nomination of Zionism, race and genetics for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Zionism, race and genetics is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zionism, race and genetics (2nd nomination) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

QuickQuokka [⁠talk • contribs] 12:45, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Nomination of Sarcophagus of Eshmunazar II for FA

Hey buddy, this is to let you know that I added you as nominator for the Eshmunazar sarcophagus article. Thank you for your great work and input. el.ziade (talkallam) 18:11, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Elie, that’s great. I have a few more tweaks to do there. Onceinawhile (talk) 06:32, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

CS1 error on Moritz Abraham Levy

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"modern Jews are the primary descendants of the Israelites"

Although I banned myself from the Zionism, race and genetics article for a couple weeks, I have not forgotten about an initial impetus for that article. At Israelites it says "Jews and the Samaritans are the modern descendants of the ancient Israelites" in Wikivoice while at Zionism, Tombah added "Modern Jews are named after and also descended from the Kingdom of Judah, one of two Israelite kingdoms that emerged in the Southern Levant during the Iron Age (with the other being the northern Kingdom of Israel)." I saw that you added a POV tag at Genetic studies on Jews. Best way to deal with all the POV pushing? Selfstudier (talk) 17:37, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

I think once the POV at the Genetic studies article is resolved, ideally with a balanced paragraph which says “some think this and some think that, but according to mainstream sources scientists cannot confirm the ancient origins, since they cannot differentiate between vertical phylogenesis and horizontal admixture…”, it should be easy to clean up the rest. They can say a shorter version of the same thing. FYI search for all articles containing the name Harry Ostrer and you will find most of the other places that this POV have found its way to. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:33, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

This will interest you

I made a little discovery in the Israel State Archives, and uploaded it to archive.org after running an OCR program. See here. At this moment it can't be read online but the PDF can be downloaded. I assume that will change soon. Perhaps this can help make a better copy on wikisource? Zerotalk 15:23, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Zero. That is great to see finally. I particularly like the map at the back – fascinating to see. Seems it is only for that one particular Orthodox ceremony (Holy Fire), but still gives an interesting picture of who has the most influence there. I have added a link to the SQ article. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:33, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
I left that plan in the file as I also like it, but I'm dubious that it was part of Cust's document. The folder at the ISA contains other stuff following Cust's document, namely an extremely detailed calendar of Easter events for 1969 (37 pages!). This plan sits between the two and I'm inclined to believe it relates to the 1969 document rather than the 1930 one. But I don't see a date or any other disambiguating information on it. Zerotalk 02:06, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
I also found this very interesting, not so much on the churches, but on the "Wailing Wall" (p. 44) and on "Rachel's Tomb." Cust wrote on the Wailing Wall as follows:
"The Wailing Wall, as being one of the few relics of the Temple of Herod of undisputed authenticity, is held in very great veneration by the Jews... The Jewish custom of praying here is of considerable antiquity, being mentioned by Rabbi Benjamin of Tudela and has now become an established right." (End Quote)
Thanks for showing us this!Davidbena (talk) 04:25, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Promotion of Sarcophagus of Eshmunazar II

Congratulations, Onceinawhile! The article you nominated, Sarcophagus of Eshmunazar II, has been promoted to featured status, recognizing it as one of the best articles on Wikipedia. The nomination discussion has been archived.
This is a rare accomplishment and you should be proud. If you would like, you may nominate it to appear on the Main page as Today's featured article. Keep up the great work! Cheers, Gog the Mild (talk) 12:30, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Category:Aramaic Egyptian papyri has been nominated for renaming

Category:Aramaic Egyptian papyri has been nominated for renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. NLeeuw (talk) 18:44, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Ayaa

Hi buddy let's nominate this, what do you think of the following? el.ziade (talkallam) 14:57, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

  • that the Royal Necropolis of Ayaa in Sidon, Lebanon, was accidentally discovered in the late 19th century by a workman who stumbled upon a shaft and chamber tomb while quarrying for stone?
  • that the Alexander Sarcophagus, found in the Royal necropolis of Ayaa, is a renowned masterpiece of ancient art featuring exceptional bas-reliefs and preserved polychrome paint?4
  • that the excavation of Hypogeum A of the Royal Necropolis of Ayaa included the opening of seven burial chambers, all containing at least one sarcophagus?
  • that the discovery of Royal Necropolis of Ayaa in Sidon, Lebanon, contributed to the establishment of the Istanbul Archaeology Museums, which now houses the famous Alexander sarcophagus as one of its most prized collections? el.ziade (talkallam) 15:03, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
    @Elias Ziade: hi my friend, yes definitely. I am ok with all of them. You might also consider:
    Onceinawhile (talk) 20:58, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
    @Onceinawhile sounds great too. I'll make sure there arent any DYK issues and submit. el.ziade (talkallam) 08:28, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Re: Evidence

What evidence would convince you that the existence of a Jewish ethnic group is not a nationalist fiction? Does there exist such an evidentiary level that would satisfy this? And do you at least agree that we have to abide by the Wikipedia consensus that there are, in fact, Jews as an ethnic group? Andre🚐 22:53, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Andrevan: thanks for your question. Take this quote from Yuval Noah Harari's Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind. His position here is not novel - it is known as modernization theory, and as that article says, it "is the predominant explanation for emergence of nationalism among scholars of nationalism".

How did Homo sapiens manage to cross this critical threshold [i.e. forming groups of more than 150 people], eventually founding cities comprising tens of thousands of inhabitants and empires ruling hundreds of millions? The secret was probably the appearance of fiction. Large numbers of strangers can cooperate successfully by believing in common myths. Any large-scale human cooperation – whether a modern state, a medieval church, an ancient city or an archaic tribe – is rooted in common myths that exist only in peoples collective imagination. Churches are rooted in common religious myths. Two Catholics who have never met can nevertheless go together on crusade or pool funds to build a hospital because they both believe that God was incarnated in human flesh and allowed Himself to be crucified to redeem our sins. States are rooted in common national myths. Two Serbs who have never met might risk their lives to save one another because both believe in the existence of the Serbian nation, the Serbian homeland and the Serbian flag. Judicial systems are rooted in common legal myths. Two lawyers who have never met can nevertheless combine efforts to defend a complete stranger because they both believe in the existence of laws, justice, human rights – and the money paid out in fees. Yet none of these things exists outside the stories that people invent and tell one another. There are no gods in the universe, no nations, no money, no human rights, no laws, and no justice outside the common imagination of human beings. People easily understand that ‘primitives’ cement their social order by believing in ghosts and spirits, and gathering each full moon to dance together around the campfire. What we fail to appreciate is that our modern institutions function on exactly the same basis.

As to your last sentence, no-one has suggested there is no Jewish ethnic group. See my comment addressed to you at 22:10, 10 September 2023 - there is no question of its existence. It is real because people believe it is. Another quote from Harari to help here:

Unlike lying, an imagined reality is something that everyone believes in, and as long as this communal belief persists, the imagined reality exerts force in the world. The sculptor from the Stadel Cave may sincerely have believed in the existence of the lion-man guardian spirit. Some sorcerers are charlatans, but most sincerely believe in the existence of gods and demons. Most millionaires sincerely believe in the existence of money and limited liability companies. Most human-rights activists sincerely believe in the existence of human rights. No one was lying when, in 2011, the UN demanded that the Libyan government respect the human rights of its citizens, even though the UN, Libya and human rights are all figments of our fertile imaginations. Ever since the Cognitive Revolution, Sapiens has thus been living in a dual reality. On the one hand, the objective reality of rivers, trees and lions; and on the other hand, the imagined reality of gods, nations and corporations. As time went by, the imagined reality became ever more powerful, so that today the very survival of rivers, trees and lions depends on the grace of imagined entities such as gods, nations and corporations.

The point being, saying nations are an imagined community is not suggesting they are lies. But they have been constructed, and that opens up the real question - are the stories we are told about "our people" and the "other people" really accurate? Nationalist stories make us work together, but also create In-groups and out-groups which have major consequences.
Most of us naturally apply a critical lens to the storytelling assumptions of organized religions and corporate brands, but we are not used to applying the same skeptical analysis to national storytelling (or at least not for our "own" national identities - we are often very happy to deconstruct those of others!). The comments you made during yesterday's discussion suggest you have yet to really question what you describe as "elementary knowledge" of national histories.
Onceinawhile (talk) 07:51, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Keeping it simple, the Times of Israel said "Whether or not to designate Jews as members of an ethnic group — a debate among Jews themselves — has political and cultural implications." Selfstudier (talk) 11:29, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Raises another point; does anyone have the right to declare ethnic membership on every follower of Judaism, even on those who don't choose to believe in it? My ethnic culture is "Wikipedian"; that doesn't mean every editor needs to consider themselves part of a community, nor that every editor is descended from Jimmy Wales. Onceinawhile (talk) 11:57, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
Without getting too far into the above, I think there's a disconnect between what might be epistemologically true to you, versus what Wikipedia should say. Wikipedia should say the boring old established thing that the sources say, with perhaps a few sentences attributed for new theories like these. Not some exciting new modern theory being the main structural inspiration for articles. Andre🚐 17:55, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
We both agree that Wikipedia should say what the sources say. You seem to be saying that it should only use "traditional" sources, whatever that means. Wikipedia should use the highest quality sources, from the most widely respected scholars. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:43, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
We absolutely agree on that point. And it is my belief that those sources confirm the treatment of Jews as a distinct ethnic group. Going back to the matzo ball soup example. I happen to think that we have more in common and race is socially constructed. But sources still talk about the Italian culture and Italian food like pizza and pasta. I happen to think dumplings, and pasta, came from the Ancient Chinese. I happen to think that tomatoes and pizza were New World inventions and not part of Roman heritage. But the important thing is that we still have a recognizable Italian nationality, one that was greatly discriminated against in the United States, and wrapped up in Catholicism as well. Andre🚐 18:47, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
Are the two of you from the UK? You don't have to answer. But this article seems UK-centric. In the US and the rest of the English-speaking world (and most of the European countries that do not speak English but are Western-aligned), Jews are already a well-established minority group, just like black Americans, Irish, Italian, or any other group in the US, just like other special ethnic groups in other countries, such as the North African Francophones, like France or Germany. As you may or may not know, the UK kicked out its Jews in the 1200s, but they came back later, I forget when, and will have to research it. I'm aware of the more recent information about the Labour antisemitism row. There were also conversos, undoubtedly, in the UK. I was reminded of a story that fish and chips was a Jewish style of preparation; turns out, it's a myth according to the Jewish Daily Forward[5] but there were Jewish cookbooks in the UK for hundreds of years before Zionism existed, and yes, if I go on a DNA test, I will see people from the UK and France on there with recognizably Jewish names. Actually, if I do a DNA test on all of the major DNA services, I see hundreds of pages of exclusively Jewish names, mostly from the USA, and I've confirmed the first page or so as real cousins on a family tree. So it strikes me as particularly silly, to my own truth and not in terms of sources, when people claim that Jews are not an ethnic group, and can't be detected through DNA markers. Andre🚐 18:58, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
  • A further point, as I start to read what you posted above from Sapiens, which is extremely amateurish pop science in my view, but making an interesting point for discussion and similar to thoughts that I've had myself at times, but cannot go into Wikipedia. But taking it at face value, the argument is that human beings are a lot more emotional and a lot more surrealistic in their activities than they are rigorous. Great, I don't disagree. But it's extremely silly to argue that Zionism created the idea of a Jewish national group when you have, linked in the previous paragraph, a Yiddish newspaper that predates the practical birth of Zionism. How do you square that circle? Andre🚐 19:10, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
    Before Zionism, Ashkenazi Jews were a distinct group in Eastern Europe, made particularly distinct by the Russian laws creating the Pale of Settlement. Zionism encouraged the belief that Jews, not just Ashkenazi Jews, were a global community whose birthright was in what was then known as Palestine. Zionism changed the Jewish identity. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:15, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
    What you're missing in the story is that the nexus of Jewry moved over time. It was in the Hellenistic world in antiquity, and in the Roman, Byzantine, and early Muslim world such as al-Andalus. We know from DNA research and history that there's a big portion of Ashkenazim and Jews in general that were Sephardic somewhere around Spain and Portugal, Narbonne, France, Italy, and Germany (like Erfurt) before most of it shifted into the classic Eastern European locale as well as North Africa, the Ottoman Empire (incl. Palestine as well), but there were multiple series of migrations at different times. One major series of events was right before the birth of Zionism, where most of the world's Jews that were in that Pale of Settlement emigrated. The nexus of Jewry then shifted to the US, back to the UK and France, Argentina, Canada, etc. Zionism did not affect their identity. Andre🚐 19:23, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
    Horizontal and Vertical models of Jewish Middle Eastern genetics
    @Andrevan: your first six sentences above are a long way of saying that you believe Jews are one big global genetic group. You are welcome to that belief. But no, DNA research does not tell a simple story like you suggest. See the chart to the right - you are telling the vertical story, which is how romantic nationalism likes to tell it. But DNA research, and common sense, states the horizontal story was very important too. Scholars do not know which was more significant.
    Your last sentence "Zionism did not affect their identity" doesn't follow logically from the rest of what you wrote, doesn't follow logically from common sense, and it doesn't follow any sources. It is 100% certain that Zionism had a significant impact on Jewish identity. Like every form of nationalism, it was designed to do exactly that. Impacting people's identity is exactly what nationalism does. If you want some color to the story of how it can happen, read for example: Balfour_Declaration#Zionist_reaction. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:13, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
    I am not saying that Jews are one big genetic group. I'm making generalizations and broad sweeps. There were many many exceptions, but what I wrote is true for the majority, like 75%, of the population. As far as your assertions, without evidence, on Zionism: no, diaspora Jews very often rejected Zionism. Andre🚐 20:15, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
    You believe it is true for 75%. You are entitled to that belief. You have based your judgements on stories you have been told, all of which have been influenced by nationalism well before you and I were born. That you believe nationalism has not impacted its target population, even amongst those who reject it, shows you have read very little on how nationalism works.
    I suspect the point you are making is that a growing number of American Jews now disagree with Israeli policy, and perhaps even with the concept of Israel itself. But Zionism is a much broader concept than that. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:01, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
    I am not basing that on a story I was told - I'm basing that on what Bennett Greenspan, who runs one of the big DNA testing companies, has said publicly[6]. You can doubt him, and there's good reason to, but it's also consistent with what I have read in the literature. Nobody ever told me that Ashkenazi Jews and Sephardic Jews were actually pretty much the same group that migrated and had horizontal admixture at different times. I was actually told that we were Russian Jews and came from Russia, and my family always assumed that we were from a Russian background. Turns out that's not really the case. Andre🚐 21:07, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
    Greenspan, who was speaking in an attempt to undermine a scholar who he considered anti-Zionist, said that "No less than 75 percent of Ashekanzi, Sephardi or Mizrahi Jews, their ancestors came from what we call the general Middle East". So he is saying that:
    • 25% have no Middle Eastern lineage at all, and since Mizrahi Jews are Middle Eastern by definition, by implication perhaps 40% of the rest have no Middle Eastern lineage at all
    • For the 60% who do, how many of their ancestors? Looking back just 30 generations (~1,000 years) a person has 1 billion ancestral lines. How many of those are Middle Eastern? Are Ashkenazis "genetically closer" to Mizrachi Jews than they are to Eastern European non-Jews? He doesn't answer any of those questions, but you have extrapolated
    Where this conversation has landed is fascinating in the context of the Zionism, race and genetics article. Your last sentence seems to basically say that popular interpretations of Jewish genetic studies have convinced you that there is a global Jewish people.
    Onceinawhile (talk) 21:34, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
    No, I said that's where I got the 75% from. As I explained, Jewish history has shown the existence of a Jewish people. Andre🚐 21:36, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
    Yes, and when was "Jewish history" as we know it today first written? In the mid 19th century (e.g. Heinrich Graetz), right at the peak of Romantic nationalism. Graetz and other scholars created a linear history where none had existed, and it was immensely popular. But it has not "proved" anything. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:43, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
    No. Jewish history includes Josephus, Herodotus, and Maimonides. Sorry pal. You're just wrong. Anyway, we should stop for now. Have a great weekend. Andre🚐 21:45, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
    Have a good weekend too. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:57, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
    @Andrevan: FYI I have begun a new article at Jewish historiography, in case you were interested to contribute there. Lots of work to do on a big topic. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:07, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
    Cool, glad something productive comes out of our discussions. Andre🚐 22:12, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
Hi Andrevan, sorry I don't understand where you are going with this comment. Yes, the US has the second highest % of Jews in the world after Israel, but there are established Jewish populations in many other countries. I don't see the relevance to the article at all, which is based on the views of scholars from various places - to my read the majority of sources used happen to be from scholars based in the US and Israel.
I have found this conversation difficult because you do not provide acknowledgement of any points made and understood. I have told you multiple times that a Jewish ethnicity exists, yet you keep questioning whether I think a Jewish ethnicity exists. It is wasting a lot of time. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:10, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
OK, I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. We can leave it here. Thanks for engaging in good faith. Andre🚐 19:14, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Fyi

Khalwa (school) directs to a page discussing purely schools in Sudan, so I'm not sure that's a useful link - incidentally, which buildings is this a reference to, out of interest? (No khalwas are mentioned on page as of yet.) Also, did you mean to return the initial 'a' on the page to lower case from sentence case? Iskandar323 (talk) 07:09, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Iskandar323: sorry all my fault - I was rushing - I did not mean to amend the a.
Re khawla, I didn't think either were perfect, but the school seemed the best option. I was referring to Commons:Category:Al-Aqsa; the sub-categories now have quite a good structure for each of the key elements of the compound. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:23, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
Right. Well then yes, it's an imperfect link at best. It's similar to the problem with zawiya, which links to Sufi institution page, not a page about 'prayer corners' which is the sense on the Al-Aqsa page. 'Khalwa' here I think essentially means musalla, again a type of prayer space, rather than anything school-related. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:31, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
I agree with you. Probably the best way is to work on the explanation of these structures in the article, and then maybe a short new stub article or two to describe the specific types of structures. Onceinawhile (talk) 07:37, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
As it has transpired, zawiya (in the prayer space sense), and khalwa (in the similar place of seclusion sense), appear to be functionally rather synonymous in their usage. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:31, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Category:International Campaign to Save the Monuments of Nubia has been nominated for renaming

Category:International Campaign to Save the Monuments of Nubia has been nominated for renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:04, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

DYK for Royal necropolis of Ayaa

On 5 October 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Royal necropolis of Ayaa, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the royal necropolis of Ayaa in Sidon, Lebanon, was accidentally discovered in the late 19th century by a workman who stumbled upon a shaft and chamber tomb while quarrying for stone? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Royal necropolis of Ayaa. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Royal necropolis of Ayaa), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

—Kusma (talk) 00:03, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Private communications

Onceinawhile, this is to inform you that I have sent private communications to your e-mail address. Be well.Davidbena (talk) 21:31, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Gaza strip reply

Hi Onceinawhile, was your latest reply meant to be a reply to my post? I specifically did not suggest removing all mention of density from the lead, nor do I see where I used particularly animated rhetoric. CMD (talk) 07:38, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Chipmunkdavis: I have outdented it to make it more clear. It was intended to address the new editor who opened the discussion and appears to be ramping up the intensity of their comments. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:19, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for that. I do feel that if there was less engagement with their more intense comments and more focus on the core statistics topic, any intensity would be a side note to the discussion topic rather than becoming the topic itself. CMD (talk) 11:52, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

October 2023

Information icon Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted.

Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive. Continued disruptive editing may result in loss of editing privileges. Classifying a reliable source, BNO News as "propaganda" is not something you should do without some consensus behind you. Please start a discussion at WP:RSN prior to removing the BNO News source again. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 21:21, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

This is, frankly, abusive. It is clear there is no consensus on the perpetrator this early on. Onceinawhile's edit summary may have been terse, but there is no need for such openly bad-faith use of the disruptive editing policy to attack another user. Removing a POV summary of "perpetrators" is obviously productive editing; POV would be listing "IDF" or "Hamas" in the perpetrators infobox. I understand that emotions are running very high right now, but there is really no need to attack other wikipedians like this.
Now, whether you want to use the emotive term "propaganda" to describe that lack of balance/misleading summary in the infobox or not is by the by (perhaps more judicious language and more exposition could have been used in the edit summary to avoid inflaming emotions), nevertheless, it's clearly bad-faith / POV editing to have a one-sided claim in the infobox, which is contradictory to the body and even the lede of the article itself.
Also, Onceinawhile's edit summary was clearly referring to the use of the source, (a tweet, which uses the language "appears to show" which is not a claim to final determination/confirmation), and not the credibility of the organisation BNO itself, which, as I understand it, is high (which would explain their responsible journalistic use of language in their tweet).

Perhaps we could all do with stepping back a little, calming down, and trying not to get upset at other users who are doing the best to improve the accuracy of wikipedia, despite the fact that this is a very upsetting time that affects many of us personally. Peace
--Tomatoswoop (talk) 12:18, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
@Weather Event Writerp This is bullying and clearly it is you who is POV pushing. You back off or this will escalate. el.ziade (talkallam) 13:45, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Nakba

Hi, I was looking at the Nakba article history. You really created this page in 2021? Before that, Wikipedia had no page titled "Nakba," not even a redirect? I find that so surprising! Levivich (talk) 16:58, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

There was a redirect - not sure what happened to its history. I think there were some moves so the redirect history is somewhere else.
I agree it's very odd it was not there before - the article has had half a million views in the last two weeks.
Onceinawhile (talk) 17:04, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
I imagine it originally redirected to what is now the article 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight (itself having had a few titles over the years I think, previously it was "1948 Palestinian exodus" for instance, perhaps also other names), which is what is usually referred to as "the Nakba", however the term "Nakba" is also used to describe the ongoing process of dispossession and expulsion that has been occurring since 1948, not just the events of 1948 itself. Since that usage is growing more common (the Nakba as a process rather than just an event in 1948), I imagine that that is why there are now 2 separate articles, one about the concept of "the Nakba" in general, giving a broad view of all the aspects that are grouped under that term, and one about the 1948 forced expulsion in detail. And why not have both, let a thousand blossoms bloom I say.
Perhaps @Onceinawhile can confirm whether I'm on the money about this.
--Tomatoswoop (talk) 14:24, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
Hi @Tomatoswoop: yes that’s right; see the discussion at the bottom of this thread: Talk:1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight/Archive 16#Requested move 25 March 2021. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:06, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Knesset Land of Israel Caucus

Notice

The article Knesset Land of Israel Caucus has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

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