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RE: Extinction Symbol. SPA/COI accounts: a word or three of advice

I have been editing the Wikipedia since before you were a member and have had experience all the way up to WP:ARBCOM. Trust me when I write that I don't need lectures about policy, especially when editors are blatantly making stuff up. One of the reason why edit without logging in is to keep an eye on how established editors such as yourself and admins treat what are apparently newcomers, and it upsets me when members exploit their presumed ignorance of the way things work.

No, it's not WP:SOCK. It's perfectly legitimate. I could operate more than one account for doing so if I wanted.

additional detail from the 82.132* accounts

SPA/COI accounts

SPA/COI operate at three basic levels;

Controlling content

They post the content they want, and remove the content they WP:DONTLIKE, exercising WP:OWNERSHIP of their topics.

Creating distractions

They create distractions and obfuscations because a vague and inaccurate topic from an uninformed editor is better for them than a clear and accurate topic from an informed one that, again they DONTLIKE.

Engineering nastiness

They engineer plain and simple nastiness that puts off genuine editors as few want to get involved in those sort of disputes and risk their account's reputation. One of the benefits of which is their page or pages protected which, if they are lucky, will happen at "their" version.

In short, you basically delivered the last two, especially with the TD;LR copy and pastes from your own talk page that would have made it very difficult for anyone coming in to follow. Or want to.

Using the tools

You have access to various tools to allow you to see what is going on, eg WP:CHECK, filters such as here and others. Please use them.

First things first

When dealing with a SPA/COI account, deal with that first before you allow them to muddy the waters or, indeed, go on to muddy the waters yourself either wittingly or unwittingly.

Case in hand

  • On a scale of 1 to 10, how bad would say a case is where a SPA/COI account persistently :removes the same material,
removes content from talk pages, and even
removes contant from other people's talk pages?

I would have said 10. You may vary slightly. I'd say it was an immediate indefinite ban or at the very least if, you are feeling charitable, a topic ban and an invitation to the WP:TEAhouse to learn some policies and manners; which they will ignore as they are here for one purpose only.

I am sorry that I just have not got the time and energy to chew over the minutiae of policies and essays as I am supposed to be enjoying a holiday, and you are supposed to be enjoying your semi-retirement.

Perhaps you should be working harder at it, and ask yourself why you are attracted to such conflicts?

Hope that helps. --82.132.215.61 (talk)

  • I don't care who XYLO is (per your note above in "Extinction symbol"; they have zero mention in any reliable RS, so have little relevance to WP articles).
I don't care about user Goldfrog23 (and their IP account), and whether they are an SPA (they definitely have a COI issue); but I have re-written the article and all refs to address COI.
You, and your various 182.132* range of IP accounts, were exposed on the Extinction symbol Talk Page as trying to use a Wikipedia article to promote XYLO as the artist who created the Extinction symbol, and delete quality references to ESP/ESP Goldfrog as the attributed artist (which all the best RS support), and which user Goldfrog23 was likely trying to fix (and getting very distressed doing so).
You should read your own material above re WP:SOCK accounts as you have edited from at least six different IPs that I count (one of which was blocked and all of which were templated for editing issues), but you should also read about a bunch of other WP policies as well. Lets run through these IP accounts. Britishfinance (talk) 21:14, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for your hard work rewriting the article and sorting all this mess, I will try to keep an eye on the article in the near future! -- Luk talk 11:58, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
@Luk: Thanks for that! I am not an environmentalist by any means (although I am increasingly concerned about it), but I have a feeling that this symbol is going to become a lot more notable over time and hence my desire to fix the article as best I could. thanks again. Britishfinance (talk) 12:02, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
@82.132.215.61: After reviewing the talk page and the current condition of the article, I feel that Britishfinance's rewriting clears the style and neutrality issues I noticed when encountering the article last Sunday. No need to invoke any kind of seniority on Wikipedia editing (or ArbCom), please bring reliable sources on the talk page if you feel the article is not balanced. -- Luk talk 13:00, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
additional detail from the 82.132* accounts (pushing XYLO agenda
Hi, just dropped by to add a quick note (probably from yet another IP address. I don't know, I have not checked).
Luk, why on earth bother wasting your time building up a bogus case? These are all just public access, dynamic IP addresses that the tools available to use would quickly identify as different users. I was not asserting authority, just heading off BF patronising me.
BF, I read over that essay linked to from your user page. Although far broader in scope than what I wrote, I can find very little that I cannot agree with nor which contradicts what I wrote.
Where you and it gets it wrong, however, is perceiving the Wikipedia to be an encyclopedia whereas it is really just a computer war game where factoids and policies are the weapons, where the content is the battlefield, and into which real world COI seap in to battle over how reality is to be seen and which is one not by what is right, but by whoever is willing and able to invest the time and energy to defend their territories. And pretty much as futile as fighting over a drawing in the sand.
Surely by now you are conscious of this? Just take a look at pretty much any religious, political or nationalistic topic.
You're still digging your heels in and distorting reality over this. I never tried to use a Wikipedia article to "promote XYLO as the artist" who created the Extinction symbol, all I did was fill in the history that ESP "was originally known or promoted themselves as XYLO" (indeed, the symbol symbolized X-Y-L-O). There is a distinct difference between the two.
From a policy point of view, I refer back to WP:COMMONSENSE/WP:IGNORE (and why the first is not a written policy, "It doesn't need to be; as a fundamental principle, it is above any policy").
Art becomes notable because of where and how it is displayed. Galleries and shows are like journals for sciences papers. Other mediums forms such as documentaries are also RS.
What you have here are numerous earlier references to the creator as XYLO. Somehow that has to be squared by the topic (and not by some ridiculous fantasy).
For example, here, it is documented as or with the notable artist Carrie Reichardt who has worked as or with XYLO on extinction symbols from a date long before the symbol became notable to the degree it is now.

Next to this piece was a collaboration in progress by Xylo (originally covered here) and Carrie Reichardt. Carrie Reichardt created all of the tiles with political and environmental messages on them. Her focus was on bees. I think this will look amazing once it's finished.

Note how XYLO also uses the Goldenfrog motif.
Now, your interpretation of the RS policy is incorrect. There is no such thing as "tier 1" references, and policy specifically states that not all content taken from such sources would meet WP:RS as, eg, it differentiates from proper reportage and lightweight opinion pieces.
As I have correctly highlighted, there is a problem relying on the sources you have, as they are part of an WP:COI echo chamber.
*A COI editor quoting a newspaper article,
*that quotes a blog,
*that is quoting the very same COI editor,
*working up their own PR.
Now know, that is a serious problem. You can kneejerk into denial and attempt to building up a defence based on manipulating policy to suit your position (see my comment re WP:BATTLEGROUND up above), but ultimately it has to be taken into consideration. I appreciate that I am in a privileged positon of actually knowning who they are, but I am not exploit that here.
I just care a little more about accuracy.
If the Wikipedia is going to end up a slave and tool to PR campaigns, which it is in certain areas, then it is doomed. --82.132.245.94 (talk) 16:09, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
Answered on Talk Page of the article. Britishfinance (talk) 20:05, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

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Reliable Sources Extinction Symbol

I've done a partial breakdown of the new sources on Extinction symbol. Few meet the standards for WP:RS. You're not just contradicting yourself as to the acceptability of blog sources but WP:CHERRYPICKING.

Ditto, you yourself also quoted WP:TALKO so best adhere to it.

Thanks, --82.132.230.49 (talk) 05:27, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

  • Another attempt to fake attribution to XYLO, the east end lad called Dave (per Talk Page), trying to fool tourists that he created the Extinction Symbol.
As well as WP:ICANTHEARYOU, we have another term for tendentious editing on Wikipedia; it is called sealioning. Britishfinance (talk) 10:39, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
Dave Stuart isn't an "East End Lad", nor is he claiming to be the creator of the Extinction symbol. He is a professional and probably the leading expert in London Street Art scene.
Mores to the point, he knows and has corresponded with XYLO/ESP for many years.
Dave's position is, to quote him directly, he has "no desire to piss on Xylo's chips" if they want to re-market if they want to remarket themselves as ESP.
That's why I say, in order to be sure of your position, ask either of them directly in order to gain some kind of perspective on this issue.
You are going way beyond the point of reasonable in this issue and contravening numerous policies to do so. Your screaming and hectoring and repeating of ungrounded and, quite frankly, ridiculous accusation won't make some true; nor make something that is true any less true. I think you need to get a grip and regain your neutrality.
Thank you. --82.132.221.72 (talk) 01:26, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
  • At least we can confirm your WP:COI here.
Your quote: Your screaming and hectoring and repeating of ungrounded, and quote frankly ridiculous accusation.
The sealioning tactic is not working for you. Britishfinance (talk) 09:56, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
And what COI is that precisely?
I asked you to stop copy and pasting discussion between us on to the talk page in order to confuse things even further.
I asked you to stop re-writing what I wrote in a prejudicial manner, re WP:TALKO. I am asking you again. Anything beyond this point will be clear evidence of bad faith and deliberate provocation.
"Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page."
Thank you.--82.132.216.240 (talk) 17:52, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
  • @Luk: @82.132.216.240: I am going to have to ask you not to come to my talk page anymore. I have gone to great lengths to answer your questions (per above), and have pasted in your questions (plus my answers) to the article Talk Page to help other editors understand you (which is permitted). COI concerns are outlined on the Talk Page (more WP:ICANTHEARYOU); you should not edit the article directly. You are not acting in good faith, your actions feel like harassment and intimidation. Britishfinance (talk) 10:12, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

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A bowl of strawberries for you!

I'm sorry Britishfinance, but I have to step away from this site for a while, for my own sake. Anyone, including you, are welcome to update the summary. Cheers. starship.paint (talk) 10:16, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Thanks Starship.paint. Very sorry to hear that but I can understand. You are a great editor (your work is really very good), and unfortunately got caught in a rule that many of us (myself included) don't fully appreciate at times. I have a feeling we will see you back again some day. All the best. Britishfinance (talk) 10:26, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
    Flouting the rule was indeed my mistake. But had the admin been Dennis Brown [2], things would have turned out differently. That said, I know that Tony was acting in the interests of the project, and that his actions were within the range of acceptable ones. starship.paint (talk) 10:37, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
  • It certainly went to defcon 1 quickly; tensions are very high on WP?!? Britishfinance (talk) 10:40, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
    I do not think tensions was the cause. I'd just like to leave a quote. If the reason the WMF stepped in was because they thought that we couldn’t handle cases like this, the way to prove them right is to not take any action when someone targets their staff members. Yes, this whole situation is a complete mess, but blocking people for inappropriate actions in it and letting the appeals process play out shows that we do have community self-governances and that it should be taken seriously. starship.paint (talk) 11:12, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Breitbart

You can ask for whitelisting of that Breitbart article for the Fram Summary ( Defer to Whitelist). It is one of the rare exceptions of whitelisting somethin for linking outside of mainspace (though not unprecedented). --Dirk Beetstra T C 04:10, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi Beetstra and thanks for that. Never knew that existed, but will give it a try! Britishfinance (talk) 21:32, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
Nice try, I was to lazy to do it myself [3]. You may or may not find this discussion a little interesting.[4] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:05, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Hi Gråbergs Gråa Sång. I keep finding new areas on WP that I never knew existed???? I'll fill that ref in. thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 17:13, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Nonono, I did that since you appeased the gods, I'm not that lazy. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:41, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Hmm, have you come across Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars? Or even the Wikipedia:Reference desk? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:44, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Gråbergs Gråa Sång facepalming myself there! Have never seen those two other sets of pages? I have been on WP for over year and never saw the reference desk - how do others find this? I am amazed that editors have the time and bandwidth to answer these questions? thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 17:51, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Well, I have been here since 2009, you pick up stuff. I think you stumble over "it" or someone tells you, but reference desk is actually linked on the mainpage, under "Other areas of Wikipedia". Wikipedia:Dashboard may have something of interest. Oh, and Wikipedia:List of hoaxes on Wikipedia. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:23, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:19, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Please remove "semi-retired" at top of your page

The tag relates to your wp status, not professional status. Ret Tax Guy (talk) 02:43, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

WMF noticeboard

I agree with what you wrote here (though could you consider correcting your typo from 'formerly' to 'formally'?). There is Wikipedia:Community bulletin board but that is not what I think you are looking for. There are pages over at the WMF wikis where formal announcements can be made, but there does need to be somewhere here as well. It is amazing in some ways that no such centralised contact area exists. It drives home how anarchic the site can be. The best place I found for the WMF was over on meta at meta:Wikimedia Foundation Board noticeboard. I am going to suggest to Doc James that a copy of the statement be formally posted there. Carcharoth (talk) 15:46, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Carcharoth. Have fixed the typo now. Yes, I thought that there was one but that I just could not find it. Seem like an obvious idea given that everyone accepts now that en-Wiki/ArbCom/WMF need to talk more often in a forum that everybody on en-Wiki sees (e.g. not a meta noticeboard). thanks for your comments, much appreciated. Britishfinance (talk) 15:51, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi, Britishfinance. If you're going to make FLC nominations in the future, there should definitely be separate nominations for each article. Even if they have elements in common, they will all have certain unique items, and reviewers may discover issues in later FLCs that they missed in previous noms. Before you try nominations, I see a couple of issues that would likely sink a potential nom if left unfixed. First, and most importantly, the tables themselves don't have any apparent citations in the first article you listed, at least. It looks like the citation is meant to be provided in the short text preceding the table, but I think we'd want something more evidently a table reference. As you're probably going to want to avoid doing 2,000 individual cites (in one of the lists I looked at), I'd recommend taking the hill database (or whatever is backing a given column) and adding cites to it in the table headings. That will support the content sufficiently to meet FL standards in that regard.

Second, you're going to want to improve the lead sections of these lists. The ones I looked at start with "This is a list of", which is thought of as outdated among FLC reviewers. We wouldn't start a non-list page with "This is an article about", after all. Try to make the introductions more interesting to the readers, like the Birketts list (whose opening sentence looks solid to me). The Marilyns in the British Isles list had a short one-paragraph lead, which you're going to want to expand to three or four paragraphs, a length matching some of your other lists. Also, a couple of the lists have numerous red links. The featured list criteria call for "a minimal proportion" of red links, so that's something a reviewer might question you about. There may be other issues with the lists, as I didn't do any comprehensive reviews, but this feedback should give you an idea of what the reviewers will be looking for. Overall, there's some work needed, but they look like interesting topics and Main Page readers would probably like them if one or more of the lists were to run someday. Giants2008 (Talk) 23:48, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi Giants2008. Many thanks for your help. I understand re the sourcing, I have given a full paragraph on the sourcing (with footnote) in each of the articles, however, I will also convert into an in-line citation attached to the table heading. The table is a download from the DoBIH database, but usefully, the DoBIH also provide an online searchable interface so any entry can be checked separately (e.g. I should not need to reference each individual line). Re the second part about the lede, I can also fix that - do you have examples of FLs that might look similar to the type of lists I am doing that might serve as a guide/template? I will try and pick one list as a test-case (with your fixes above), however, if you have any guidance on a particular one that you would use, I would appreciate your view on that. thanks again. Britishfinance (talk) 19:35, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
For lead sections, I recommend taking a look at WP:FLC and reading the leads for some of the candidates. There are sure to be several that will be helpful as guides for your lists. I don't know if there's one that's similar to your lists, but even unrelated lists should give you some basic ideas. You'll find that most of them are three paragraphs or so, and provide an introduction to the subject in question while being interesting for the readers. Giants2008 (Talk) 18:37, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 01:19, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Why my edits of 'Anand Kumar' article reverted?

I added a comment on the talk page of 'Anand Kumar' article. I do not know how to quote you there (or even required to quote you) but please reply to my concerns. Thanks! Creepy.clown.wiki (talk) 15:59, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Creepy.clown.wiki, I have responded on the talk page of the article; tread carefully, as these kinds of BLP violations have material sanctions. Britishfinance (talk) 14:48, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Reverted Ulmus edits.

Hello Britishfinance. Please note that 193.39.159.73 is a shared (library) IP address, and most edits from there aren't vandalism. The Ulmus edits are by a different person and are genuine and based on verifiable facts, knowledge & experience. Please don't revert these (unless of course there are obvious signs of vandalism). Thank you. 213.48.83.176.

213.48.83.176, no problem. I would advise you to either get an account, or leave longer edit summaries (and even a note on the talk page of each article), because (1) you are making material edits (deleting referenced sections and other such), with minimal summaries, and (2) from an IP that has a "rap sheet" of blocks and vandalism. I will take your word for it that your edits are in good faith, but I think you would help your case with an account, or at least, a fuller explanation of your aims on each article on its TP. thanks and happy editing. Britishfinance (talk) 14:51, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Hi, welcome to the weird and wonderful world of disambiguation pages! You made Mountains of the Dingle Peninsula into a dab page, but now there all kinds of articles linking to it. Could you correct those links to point to the right articles? A tool I find helpful is DisamAssist. Cheers! — Gorthian (talk) 04:05, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Gorthian! Silly of me to forget that, however, I will fix it. All the best. Britishfinance (talk) 07:53, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

Precious

British mountains in finance

Thank you for quality articles about such as List of Corbett mountains in Scotland, Leprechaun economics, Double Irish arrangement, Nadia Marcinko and Josepha Madigan, some substantially re-written or saved, some with your spectacular images, for support, - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

You are recipient no. 2253 of Precious, a prize of QAI. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:04, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks so much for that Gerda Arendt, it is much appreciated! Britishfinance (talk) 13:10, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

WP:NPOV

Why would you want to convict view media reports someone that has never been charged. How do you know she is not helping or cooperating in the investigation, you don't. WP:NPOV Your carefully crafted draft cites, recitations of news that was reported 14 years ago. If she is charged then run with it, but I think it should be done only if she is convicted, otherwise from a legal perspective she could come after the site for its slanted claims in your draft.--2600:8802:2200:2320:29ED:4D34:26:940A (talk) 09:24, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

(regarding the Nadia Marcinko article). You have the wrong impression of how Wikipedia functions. We don't take views on things or provide information that would be used for investigations. We simply report on what independent reliable sources say (per WP:RS). It is that simple. You are deleting material which is referenced to recent articles from some of the most reliable sources that Wikipedia uses (per WP:RS/P), including WP:SIGCOV pieces by The Guardian and Wired. Don't make legal threats (a big mistake on Wikipedia); if any of the RS are successfully sued by the subject, then the articles will be withdrawn; however, sources like The Guardian do not have a record of printing such material. Britishfinance (talk) 09:29, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

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IIEA page neutrality dispute

Dear Britishfinance,

Further to our discussion on the IIEA talk page, I have opened up a dispute resolution space here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk%3AInstitute_of_International_and_European_Affairs_discussion

Perhaps this can be used to resolve the issues I have raised about the page in a friendly way.

Looking forward to hearing from you,

Ballystrahan (talk) 13:34, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

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News and updates for administrators from the past month (October 2019).

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  • A related RfC is seeking the community's sentiment for a binding desysop procedure.

Arbitration

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 21:15, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks!

Cheers for closing that MfD, you beat me to it :) stwalkerster (talk) 21:30, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

My pleasure! I needed the practice. Britishfinance (talk) 21:35, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

A Dobos torte for you!

7&6=thirteen (☎) has given you a Dobos torte to enjoy! Seven layers of fun because you deserve it.


To give a Dobos torte and spread the WikiLove, just place {{subst:Dobos Torte}} on someone else's talkpage, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend.

7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:39, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Asaii

Is there a reason you relisted Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Asaii rather than letting it be closed as WP:SOFTDELETE? It would have been eligible for such a close. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:14, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Barkeep49. My fear is that this article has a UPE aspect (made by an SPA), and thus a soft delete will see it return in some other guise. I was hoping that a re-list would generate some stronger reaction for you to get a more stable result. Hope that makes sense. Britishfinance (talk) 17:22, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
I am also happy to revert my relist if you want to go for a soft delete? Britishfinance (talk) 17:24, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
Britishfinance, my preference would be to have it soft deleted. Some sort of COI seems likely and I suspect it was created in order to help nudge along the merger but I think it's unlikely to be recreated and even having the soft delete on record would still be helpful should it ever be recreated. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:38, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
Barkeep49, okay no problem, I will revert my relist. good luck with it. Britishfinance (talk) 17:39, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
Barkeep49, forgot to congratulate you on your adminship - was away during your RfA but you would have had my !vote (not that you needed it) - well done. Britishfinance (talk) 21:36, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
Britishfinance, thanks! So far so good. The support of the NPP community was so meaningful. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:23, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

Section pointers in edit summaries

Hello Britishfinance. Your recent edit at ANI contains no pointer in the edit summary as to what section it pertains to. The edit summary is just '(reply)'. If you check the edit history of ANI you'll notice that most edits have these pointers. It would be helpful if you could somehow manage to preserve these pointers, so that anyone who has ANI on their watchlist can tell if you are working on a topic that is of interest to them. It's my impression that hitting the 'Edit' button next to the section header generally pre-fills the edit summary field with a section pointer, allowing you to save it with your edit. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 21:39, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for noting that EdJohnston, and will make sure I do in future. All the best, Britishfinance (talk) 21:42, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

A survey to improve the community consultation outreach process

Hello!

The Wikimedia Foundation is seeking to improve the community consultation outreach process for Foundation policies, and we are interested in why you didn't participate in a recent consultation that followed a community discussion you’ve been part of.

Please fill out this short survey to help us improve our community consultation process for the future. It should only take about three minutes.

The privacy policy for this survey is here. This survey is a one-off request from us related to this unique topic.

Thank you for your participation, Kbrown (WMF) 10:44, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

you closed the AFD but its still tagged in article

Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron – Rescue list Dream Focus 10:25, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Dream Focus, must be something affecting the xfd closer - I will check it out. Britishfinance (talk) 10:57, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
 Done. Britishfinance (talk) 11:07, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

NACs on ANI

Please stop aggressively closing discussions after minimal input. I have had to reopen one today. Closing discussions is normally done by admins on the admin boards, long-stale discussions can be closed or archived but many of those you have closed, the ink is barely dry on the original complaint. As a rule of thumb, three days with no input is fine to close. Less than 24h, not so much. Guy (help!) 15:46, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

JzG, thanks for that and I hear you. I thought given the user was longer term blocked it was done, but subsequent events proved me wrong. I see your rationale now. Sorry again, Britishfinance (talk) 17:13, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Britishfinance, there's no rush, the archive bot cleans up mostly. Guy (help!) 21:15, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

RfA

There's a lot of sense in what you said here. It's a shame it wasn't on WT:RfA where it would have more exposure. Perhaps you can work into a thread there one of the days. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:16, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Kudpung, that is very nice of you to take the time out to say that, and I will certainly give it some thought. All the best, Britishfinance (talk) 09:26, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alan Pangborn

As the closer to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alan Pangborn, please see the recent edits to Castle Rock (TV series) and the discussion at Talk:Castle Rock (TV series)#Alan Pangborn. Thank you. -- /Alex/21 11:02, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

  • I am of the opinion the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alan Pangborn merge closure of closure of the AfD was not respected. It has become clear some of the merge proposers had no intention or inclination to do a merge but merely a redirect and there appears to be little consideration as to the actual target of which there appears to be several candidates and a poor choice at AfD. I am inclined this is a WP:DRV matter. Any comments? Djm-leighpark (talk) 20:23, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Hi Djm-leighpark – that is disappointing to hear. I wonder if DRV is the best way. For example, if an AfD was closed as a straight Redirect, and someone removed the Redirect, the change would be just reverted rather than going back to DRV? Reverting back to the merge tags that the XFDcloser places on the article could be a start. At least it would undo a non-consensus merge, but you are back to having someone then do the merge (which is always a slight flaw of AfD with merge). If an editor started to edit war against a consensus AfD close (and it was a consensus), then, after a talk page discussion, you are probably heading for ANI (or just call in an admin). Does that make sense? Britishfinance (talk) 21:08, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
  • I'll have a chew. Despite what the mergers are claiming its a mess. I could back out the redirect but might lead to an edit war. I need to look up WP:DRV first ... Or maybe need to go through formal merge proposals is another option. Got to dash for a bit. Djm-leighpark (talk) 21:22, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The deletion discussion !votes were (if I have not miscounted) nom(delete), 2(keep), 1(keep or merge), 8(merge), 0(redirect), 0(merge or redirect). I am concerned merge means merge and redirect means redirect and the majority of this afd was to retain and attribute content from the original article and there was no consensus to redirect. I regard the current outcome (as regards the article) as controversial, as such should have been handled by an admin per WP:BADNAC]] if that was predictable (arguably it was if digging deeply enough) but possibly not. The only case for WP:DRV come under if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page. ... the significant new information being those !voting merge did not seems to either have the competency or will to carry out there commitment to merge content. Wikipedia:Articles for merging seems dead. I also have options of re-running the AfD .... that looks horrible .... or perhaps doing a WP:PROMERGE to Dark Half but it might be controversial and need a discusssion and I'd want to restore the page for the banner. (Bear in mind I would prefer keep to that merge).Djm-leighpark (talk) 09:43, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Hi Djm-leighpark. I think you would find it hard to argue that it was a WP:BADNAC given that last 9 !votes in a row (notwithstanding one was also a Keep/Merge) were all aligned to merge to Castle Rock (Stephen King). That is almost as unambiguous as it gets for a NAC. For example, if the last two !votes were different, I would have left it (or considered a re-list). The problem is that another editor(s) has ignored the AfD and Redirected to another destination. I would simply revert their edits to bring it back to the immediate post-AfD status of having a tag to merge to Stephen King (Castle Rock). At that stage, a discussion on the talk page should be had, ideally with the participants of the AfD. Unless their view has changed (if it has, then that can have an effect), then they can re-confirm it – has this already happened? thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 09:57, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
  • OK as closer I'll go with your suggestion. Slightly weird as I dont support the target Stephen King (Castle Rock) but that's the way to go.Djm-leighpark (talk) 10:08, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

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Thanks, ToThAc (talk) 21:14, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chief Wiggum

Keeping in mind AFD WP:NOTAVOTE, can you append your closure by discussing the strength or arguments on both sides? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:26, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Piotrus. I am not sure there is any more to be gained here? With 15 valid contributions - a well attended AfD - only one supported Delete (and even that contribution also contemplated a Merge). After the RS from 4meter4, the final next 8 valid contributions were 7 Keeps and 1 Merge. While AfD is NOTAVOTE, it would be an extraordinary SUPERVOTE for any closer to overturn such a consensus unless the RS was unambiguously a complete fail. Hope that makes sense. Britishfinance (talk) 08:06, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
Fair enough. IMHO most of the keep votes did not provide a good rationale, and I'd lean towards merge, but I can see how this could be controversial. We can revisit this in 5 or 10 years again I guess :> --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:57, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
Piotrus, as you will also know from being active at AfD, it is not uncommon to see a unamious/highly charged Keep from 5 years ago, become an uncontested Delete at 2nd AfD. Best of luck and great to see your regular contributions at AfD. Britishfinance (talk) 09:01, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
Exactly. Our notability standards in fiction are tightening, so in 5-10 years such entries may be merged. Or, there is always a chance some new source will appear and then it can be safe. We can wait for either outcome. I just in general recommend adding a bit more analysis to closing discussions unless a case is really clear. In this one I am not challenging your decision (much), I just felt it would benefit from a sentence or two of justification. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:29, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Your MfD Closure

I noticed that you closed an MfD for Article Rescue Squadron after it was open for only 7 hours. Despite the number of early "keep" !votes, this is far too early to assess consensus and end the discussion. Will you reconsider? –dlthewave ☎ 22:47, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Dlthewave, the core issue is that MfD is not really the right forum for the concern regarding the ARS list and whether members use it to WP:CANVASS (as noted in this MfD, and the previous keep in June; and even the other past historical MfDs of this page). Almost every WikiProject has a similar list of topic articles that have been nominated at AfD (just like ARS), and none of these lists are considered in violation of WP:CANVASS. The best way to raise this issue, which is really about ARS member conduct, is via an RfC and a wider community discussion. thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 23:49, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree with your assessment of consensus that MfD was the wrong venue but I'm not sure if "keep" was the right outcome. When editors opened a discussion at Village Pump in an effort to find the correct venue, folks cited your "keep" closure as evidence that the matter was already decided, which I don't believe was your intent. –dlthewave ☎ 02:25, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
My understanding (which is often flawed) is this was actually a speedy keep per WP:SCLOSE and perhaps likely should have been explicitly marked and closed as such. I read the closure as within the spirit of the guidelines for speedy keep and have the feeling the same result would be seen at WP:DRV if someone felt necessary to escalate it there.Djm-leighpark (talk) 07:58, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes Djm-leighpark, it is more common to make such closures as a Speedy Keep, however, given the context, I closed it as a Keep.
Dlthewave, having read the new RfC at: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Shut_down_Article_Rescue_Squadron, I think the discussion is mispresented. There are lots of lists of articles for deletion in WP (e.g. WP:DELSORT, WP:AALERTS), as Joe Roe points out. The issue of CANVASS is specific to editor conduct; and while there are lots of concerns being posted as that RfC about ARS conduct, there are no compelling diffs/AfDs being presented showing that canvassing by ARS members unfairly swung an AfD? Without that, there is little to tangibly discuss, and it could ultimately boomerang back. Hope that helps as a view from someone who has done a lot of AfDs, but has no link with the ARS. Britishfinance (talk) 09:11, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Portal guideline workshop

Hi there. I'm taking it upon myself to try to moderate a discussion among Portal power users with the intention of creating a draft guideline for Portals, and I'd like to invite you to join this discussion. If you're interested, please join the discussion at User talk:Scottywong/Portal guideline workspace. Thanks. ‑Scottywong| [express] || 02:49, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

I am a bit curious to why you aren't contributing here as it is a good faith effort to put things in place. It isn't too late to share your input as someone who appears to be critical of portals. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:28, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi Knowledgekid87, I thought I was contributing there? I think some of my additions were re-formatted so it might be buried "deeper" in there, but I have participated as I do consider it a good-faith workshop. In fairness, my initial contributions were to discuss ways to "materially" alter the trajectory of portals by trying to suggest more substantive changes (I labeled them A and B), however, I am not sure any of that has taken root. I also felt that SW's idea of an RfP was also worthy (as I think you did), but it also did not seem to take root. The discussion seems to be settling into more incremental changes about the existing structures to avoid dispute at MfD, which I am not sure will produce meaningful improvements for portals (I am reminded of John Kenneth Galbraith's quote [5]), and thus not really address the core problem? However, I have not participated in WP workshops before and I don't want to be disruptive or an annoyance if the general view is otherwise. Britishfinance (talk)
My apologies as I didn't see you on the participating list. As for your comment, I really hope that isn't the case and that the workshop can become the new guidelines. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:11, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
I want to add that we now have a "participant" list for the final pitch to the community regarding guideline status. Invites were sent out, so those that didn't bother participating in the discussion really cant complain as much with the results. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:20, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
{edit conflict} No problem Knowledgekid87. As I said, I really do think some deeper thinking is needed in this area to "move the dial" for portals. I think one of the reasons why WP has worked (where the Encylopedia Britannica did not), is how flexible and adaptive it is. Editors are free to do things that they think work, and will stop doing things that don't work – E.g. the famous concept of Creative destruction. Any time that we find ourselves trying to force something to work/defend what is not working in WP, we are drifting into Encylopedia Britannica thinking. However, this is a personal view, and in itself, might be a flawed assumption? All the best, Britishfinance (talk) 16:29, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Sharon Rich

I am a new Wikipedia contributor and have done the main tutorials and introductions and read the protocols and conventions carefully. Looking at the many contributions you have made I am in awe as to how you do it. I see you have been given many accolades and that is what I will aspire to. But I digress. The purpose of communicating with you is to get your feedback on what constitutes worthwhile additions and what doesn’t. I have a good friend in Florida who happens to be a neighbor of Sharon Rich, the author. I mentioned to her that I had become a contributor to Wikipedia and she told me that Sharon had both her own website and a Wikipedia article but was most upset at what had occurred to her. She believes that additions had been added to her Wikipedia article which were not relevant to her. She just wanted a simple page that has similar content to that on her website. I said I would have a look at it for her and I saw what she meant. Could I call upon your kind consideration to give me permission to delete those parts that are causing her distress? Bzcons44 (talk) 23:56, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Responding to this on the article talk page of Sharon Rich. Britishfinance (talk) 08:35, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
I'll respond here: you may not introduce that content again on the Sharon Rich article, and certainly not based on a partial memoir from a heavily involved party published on a non-neutral website. She does not appear to be notable as a Scientologist at all, and placing that template on her page is total overkill. A note about her nephew may be acceptable, but it requires better sourcing than Tony Ortega's website. Please don't make me put a BLP warning, or a note about discretionary sanctions, on your talk page. Drmies (talk) 20:28, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Hi Drmies. You have reverted two items.
The first is that Sharon Rich is the aunt of Nathan Rich. I participated in the fix-up of Rich's BLP, and its AfD. Tony Ortega is considered a useful source on Scientology (per AfD) and I don't use his site for views but just biographical details; Nathan Rich's own book Scythe Tleppo states that Sharon is his aunt; and here is a video made by a Scientology group, that at 0.30 has Sharon Rich being interviewed as Nathan Rich's aunt. Scientology and the Aftermath: Nathan Rich (made as reply to Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath)
The second revert is regarding Sharon's position as a Scientologist. She gets a mention in Andrew Morton's book [Tom Cruise: An Unauthorized Biography], and has publically gone on record in the earlier video regarding Nathan (made as part of the Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath event). Someone doesn't have to be a "notable Scientologist" for the fact that they are a Scientologist to be noted in their BLP (just as long as there is an RS to verify it; which there is). However, on reflection, I think you are right re the template.
I hope this clarifies why chronicling that she is the aunt of Nathan Rich is appropriate and worthwhile (it would be odd not to make the connection between two WP:BLPs), and ditto for the fact that she is a Scientologist (although without the template), and he connection to the Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath. Britishfinance (talk) 23:02, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
That she is a Scientologist, fine; that she is the aunt of an anti-Scientologist, I suppose. That she gets a mention here or there, and is interviewed in a documentary, that is not good enough: BLP calls for high standards, and that really means published sources. I watched a bit of that video--that is not the kind of evidence that will ever be acceptable here; if I understand it correctly it's made to smear the man's character. That's not just not-neutral, that's unreliable. But putting that in her article places that onus on her, and that's not cool either, since we don't know what she said exactly and in what context and all that. For all we know it was edited or warped. Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath is out too: again we're talking about a documentary from a TV channel whose neutrality and reliability is questionable, and this person is only noteworthy in relation to one single person interviewed in one of 36 episodes. Whether Tony Ortega is useful or not cannot be decided via an AfD, and "useful" as he may be, I do not see why he should be acceptable as a source in a BLP. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 22:10, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Drmies. Thanks. Agreed re the video as unsuitable for a BLP, but it is just to triangulate that it is not hard to show she is his aunt (i.e. she is not going to appear in a glossy production as his aunt, if that was untrue); however, the right source is his book, and I do think that Tony Ortega is a useful additional source (yes, AfD is not a decider of an RS, but where it gets a larger audience than the RS noticeboard, it is not a bad process, imho). Also agreed re Leah Remini (which is covered in his BLP and more related to him then Sharon; he was a noted subject of the Remini series). So, I will note that she is a scientologist (ref to Andrew Morton), and Nathan Rich is her nephew (ref to Nathan and support ref by Tony)? Also, I think I should paste our discussion above to her Talk Page for other editors as a guide (and they may have other views)? thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 23:35, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
Sure, that's fine. Thanks. Drmies (talk) 00:10, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Hi Drmies, I went away just as we finished the above discussion and for some reason when I returned, I never really wanted to execute what we agreed above. Ultimately, this BLP's association with Scientology and her controversial nephew, Nathan Rich, is clearly a cause of anguish for her, and I ultimately don't want to inflict anguish on an ordinary person with facts that are not core to their WP notability (even if interesting). Is it cowardly of me to do that - perhaps I could always just paste the above into her BLP Talk Page and leave to others to decide? thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 20:22, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
There is nothing cowardly about leaving out this kind of information; I think it is the right thing to do. And indeed, it is not central to her notability. I would leave it be. You can put it on the talk page if you like, but I think the more knowledgeable editors will find their way to the history and find it there just as easily. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 04:38, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for that Drmies, makes sense to me :) Britishfinance (talk) 12:04, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Deirdre Breakenridge

Please allow AfD discussions to run for a minimum of 7 full days unless one of the criteria for speedy keep is met, and then please indicate which criterion applies. Thanks. --Michig (talk) 08:52, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Michig, I closed it 24 hours early as the result became unambiguous; the nom stopped challenging the ongoing WP:HEY almost six days ago (one day after listing, when the HEY started), and having read the updated references, I could see why. It is now that uncommon to close such AfDs early, here is an example after only a few days: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2022 United States Senate elections. If I see that the nom has disappeared for many days and the result is unambiguous, I am willing to close it a day earlier. Hope that makes sense. However, I didn't mean any discourtesy by it - to nom or others - and if you would like me to unclose it, I will? thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 10:07, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
If you look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2022 United States Senate elections, the closer specified the early close criterion that applied (WP:SNOW - one that should be used with caution). The valid reasons for closing an AfD early as a keep are detailed at Wikipedia:Speedy keep. I don't think there's anything to be gained by reopening the discussion in this case. --Michig (talk) 10:16, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks Michih and appreciate your responses (it is all learning!). I have never been a huge fan of quoting WP:SNOW as I sometimes feel it is a bit harsh when it goes against the nom. In this case, I preferred to focus on the specifics of quite a detailed WP:HEY (i.e the starting nom was not that irrational), and that there was no consensus to Delete. That probably means SNOW, but I preferred not to use it here, which I think it okay? I don't like closing AfDs with any "bite" in the summary if I can avoid it. I have spent many hours in AfD and know the effort it takes on all sides. If I can close an AfD early and efficiently for the good of all parties, I will do that, but I do have a bias to avoiding use of SNOW if possible - do you think I am wrong in that? thanks. 10:30, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
You have to leave the AfD running for a full 7 days unless one of the accepted criteria for an early close is met. WP:SNOW is fine if it's absolutely clear that the article is going to be kept, but if the AfD has been running for 6 days already I would advise just to let it run for another day, to avoid the close being overturned on procedural grounds at WP:DRV. --Michig (talk) 10:33, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Galleries

As I am not posting to the portal work shop anymore I just wanted to point out that the use of galleries in articles causes many problems as outlined by a few rules...such as. .. WP:Gallery - WP:WEIGHT - MOS:ACCIM. In short different browsers display things differently (sometime mini or gigantic images). Many people with font sizes settings will end up with having to use the side scrolling option to view images and this will also cause the whole article to invoke the side scroll option. I many cases in mobile view the images will stack and cause users to have to scroll a huge amount before they see sourced prose text. That said in the examples you gave that are not causing undue weight to a sub section is a great way to use them even if they causes a few problems.--Moxy 🍁 22:06, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Moxy, and sorry if I am "doing people's head in" trying to brain-storm different avenues and ideas. Obviously, nobody is going to "solve" portals in one go, and perhaps they shouldn't as their is quite a diversity, even in my experience of them. However, if we can find some simple solutions to smaller abandoned portals (e.g. <5 FA articles), then maybe this is a viable alternative with a number of benefits. However, I am not a technology person, so beyond a point, I am less effective? thanks again. Britishfinance (talk) 22:15, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Arbitration Case Opened

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Portals. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Portals/Evidence. Please add your evidence by December 20, 2019, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Portals/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, SQLQuery me! 20:36, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

RS and RB?

Just wondering what your basis was for deciding that the cited sources didn't meet reliability criteria? DS (talk) 15:03, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi DragonflySixtyseven, I looked at the RS for that addition of [6], which is a package tour/travel site, which would not be considered an RS for probably anything, and particularly as a source regarding the Rao Bahadur award? I am willing to be convinced if you think otherwise, but I don't think I am coming from an unreasonable position here? thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 15:12, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Oh, not the tour/travel site, sorry — I meant the journal. Note that the user supplied two sources the second time. DS (talk) 15:21, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
{edit conflict} Also, if you look at the history of the Rao Bahadur article, DragonflySixtyseven, you will see that like you, I have tried to clean-up this article a few times now given the poor edits/vandalization which it is regularly subject to (I even added a photo or the award in question). thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 15:24, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
DragonflySixtyseven, just seeing the second source now and had missed that (probably from the fatigue of patrolling this article, and being wary of sources that I cannot check myself online). However, it seems like you have more expertise/understanding of sources in this part of the world, so I would be happy to go with whatever you think is appropriate here and happy for you to revert me as required. All the best :) Britishfinance (talk) 15:27, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Actually, upon much closer examination, I think it's a case of WP:SYNTH. The journal is a reliable source for Muthanna's accomplishments, and the travel site says he got the RB for his accomplishments, THEREFORE can we not say that he got the RB for his accomplishments? (No. No we cannot.) Sorry about the bother. DS (talk) 15:32, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
DragonflySixtyseven, together we have solved this, well done. :) Britishfinance (talk)

Close

wonder if you can close a WP:SKCRIT withdrawn nomination. AfD Lightburst (talk) 15:30, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Lightburst, unfortunately there has been a Delete !vote registered at the AfD which makes a SKCRIT close more problematic, however, having read the article and AfD, I have !voted Keep and added a reference from The Daily Telegraph which should help. Hope that makes sense. Britishfinance (talk) 16:02, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
I see. I was not aware of the second part of SKCRIT The nominator withdraws the nomination or fails to advance any argument for deletion or redirection—perhaps only proposing an alternative action such as moving or merging—and no one other than the nominator recommends that the page be deleted or redirected Lightburst (talk) 16:16, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

CESNUR article

Since you recently commented on the ANI thread about an organized promotion effort related to CESNUR, I'd like to ask you to help review that organization's article here on Wikipedia. In an attempt to comply with the spirit of WP:CANVAS, the same message is being sent to everyone who commented on the ANI thread, and no specific editing-conflict is being referenced: the article could simply benefit from more eyeballs. Feoffer (talk) 08:21, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Hi Feoffer and thanks for the ping. I had only looked at this tangentially as I saw an editor raise concerns about it at AfD as a source. Is your sense that CESNUR is justified as a WP article, but not as an RS for other articles? thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 15:14, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
That's what I understand wikipedia policy and consensus to be, yes. It's a very tricky article because the pro-sect advocates at CESNUR produce a lot of material suggesting they're neutral scholars when really they're active partisans. But, the other side of that debate, the "anti-cult movement", are also rabid partisans in the opposite direction and they produce a lot of material too. As a result, when you search for CESNUR, most of the material is either PROMOTIONAL created by CESNUR & its allies or polemic created by 'cult awareness' types. There are some good scholarly sources, but it'll take lots f eyeballs to find the right balance. Feoffer (talk) 22:33, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

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About Badarawa

Hello, thank you very much for your concern about the page I created, I will provide sources and citation to make sure that the page reach the general notability guideline. the reason why i did not provide reference is because I thought some basic information does not need citations. Especially places and natural phenomenon. Have a nice day. Anasskoko (talk) 22:00, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

No problem Anasskoko. Draftspace is a better/safer area for developing articles until they are ready for mainspace. You just need to make sure you have circa 3 clear references that show the topic has WP:GNG. Once you have that, you at least have a stub, and a right to be in mainspace. Without this, your article will be repeatedly moved to draftspace (or even proposed for WP:CSD by the community. Good luck with it! Britishfinance (talk) 22:10, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

HELLO SIR

Bobby-C
Hello

I recieved a message of you wanting to delete my article, in all fairness i believe it meets the policy of Wikipedia, with valid information and all the references and external links with regards to the information provided....Kindly reconsider your decision. complements and best regards. Proof124 (talk) 11:11, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Proof124, unfortunately your BLP article Bobby-C has been deleted under WP:A7 (subject is not notable) and WP:G11 (article is promotional). You should read WP:GNG fully to ensure that your future articles can meet Wikipedia's criteria for a BLP. thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 11:40, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Editor's Barnstar
Great work with Building a Better Legal Profession! Marquardtika (talk) 15:26, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Nice Emmanuel Oyiboke (talk) 20:53, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

A quick gander at your AfD clerking

Hi there BF. I had been noticing relists you'd performed a fair amount recently when I was looking at possible AfDs to close. When your name was floated to me by someone as a potential RfA candidate (which doesn't surprise me - RfA is definitely something you should be giving serious consideration to doing) I mentioned this. I have - well before I became a sysop - disliked non-administrative actions (outside of closing a speedy delete or speedy keep) at AfD so my comment had that slant. I decided it only fair to take a more systematic rather than impressionistic view of your relists. In doing so I found a mostly positive track record. The one suggestion I would have is that you consider not doing multiple relists on the same AfD (especially as a non-admin) - this one being an egregious case where you relisted three times and didn't, in my view, comply with the burden WP:RELIST suggests for a third (or further) relist. I try not to do more than one action on any AfD simply because I think fresh eyes bring value though this is obviously not a policy or guideline requirement. Other than that (and my general hang-up about the unconscious bias non-sysops are likely to have) I think your work shows good judgement. The kind of judgement that should really lead you to consider just getting the mop yourself. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:47, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

That is much appreciated Barkeep49, and thank you for taking the time like that. I completely agree with your observation where I did multiple re-lists on the same AfD, and it is something I will fully take on board. I am conscious of the value of a "soft delete" and or NAC re-list bias, so am feeling my way through it, trying to give more precise reasons for a re-list, but it is still a work-in-progress.
Wow re the RfA advice, I never saw myself in that category or guise? I have never done a GA-type article which I always felt was a competency you had to demonstrate to pass an RfA? However, you are the first to ever say it to me, and given that I rank your view highly, it is also much appreciated. I will give it some thought. Britishfinance (talk) 17:00, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Britishfinance, I write at (great) length about how I see RfA at the moment over here. I don't think GA is strictly necessary to pass RfA at this time. Helpful? Yes. But not necessary - I think the number one criteria is sysops who are respected saying you're ready. Anyhow glad you're open to the idea. Noodle on it. Perhaps see if anyone besides myself and the person who floated your name to me suggests it. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:11, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
A very interesting read Barkeep49, and some great insight there (e.g. the asymmetry of effort in !voting). It certainly was not on my radar screen until you (and I now understand the other), floated the idea; I will definitely reflect on it. thanks again :) Britishfinance (talk) 18:17, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Hey Britishfinance. I know that Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ho Yinsen has sat there for a couple days but given its history (it was already reopened once as BADNAC, appropriately in my view) I think it should have been left to some sysop to act on one way or another. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:54, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
Hi Barkeep49 and thanks for the feedback - much appreciated. I didn't close it but just re-listed it (I would never have closed such an AfD, given the lack of any consensus, without at least one relist). In the last 24-hours, it had a Keep, Merge and Redirect, and thus without improvement in consensus, felt a Relist was right? If you don't mind me asking, would you have gone for a close now? thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 16:03, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
Britishfinance, well I have enough of a connection to Onel that I don't close AfDs that he's nominated. That said I'd have closed it as redirect - I'm not seeing any sources put forward to justify the keeps so it's just WP:ILIKEIT in my reading. And yes I did see that you didn't close it :). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:34, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Sweety Kumari Artical

Hey Britishfinance.

Why do you want to delete Sweety Kumari's article. If there is any problem then tell us it will be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bivashmaji (talk • contribs) 10:28, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi Bivashmaji. Unfortunately, her article has no quality reliable source that has done a dedicated article (what we call significant coverage) on her to show that she is notable. Without that, her article cannt stay in Wikipedia. Perhaps this may change in the future for her? Hope that helps. Britishfinance (talk) 10:48, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

False Accusation relating to the editing of the Sean Mulryan page

You have falsely accused me of editing the Sean Mulryan page and inserting certain comments. Can you please retract the comments on my talk page. Financefactz (talk) 15:57, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

I have responded to your Edit Warring here, and your COI here. Your persistent personal attacks on me, starting with your original user name (a crude derivation of mine), which had to be blocked, and unreal edits like this (and several more like it). You have two related agendas on Wikipedia, advocating for real estate projects in Dublin's International Financial Services Centre (like Sean Mulryan's Ballymore Group Dublin Landings project), and attacking me (because of some of my Irish tax-related articles involve the multi-national firms that buy your real estate projects).
Neither of these two agendas have a future in Wikipedia. Britishfinance (talk) 22:24, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

1. Can you please retract the false statement stating I have edited the Sean Mulryan wikipedia page. I have never edited the page with the comments you have claimed. You have not responded to my previous requests on this point and the false allegation is still posted on my talk page with a false quotation. Financefactz (talk) 12:52, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

2. My apologies for my original name. It was my first time using Wikipedia and I thought I was allowed to just choose any unique name, as yours was Britishfinance and I was mainly editing pages as a retort related to Irish tax that you had created, I chose the name Britishfinance1. My name has now been changed to Financefactz which was deemed acceptable by the powers that be in Wikipedia. If you have an issue with Financefactz I would be happy to change it again to something else.Financefactz (talk) 12:52, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

3. Lastly I would be only too happy to for you to edit the page Dublin Landings and insert any related scandals you can find. For example there used to be a pub on the site and someone was murdered there in the 2000's so this could be relevant. Feel free to insert anything along these lines if you wish. I have a strong interest in architecture and have also created the page Tallest approved buildings in the Republic of Ireland have a look if you wish and see what you think. Also feel free to add citations or other information or delete it or merge it if you see fit. Financefactz (talk) 12:52, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

4. Another interesting read of a Ballymore Group development would be Snowhill in Birmingham. I haven't edited that article but it is the sort of standard I would hope to get to as it is a similar size to Dublin Landings. I am hoping to develop out the Capital Dock page to meet this standard and feel free to edit and contribute in any way you see fit within the rules of Wikipedia.Financefactz (talk) 12:52, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Adding this all up

So let us add this all up Financefactz:

1. You attempted to join Wikipedia on 1 August 2019 with a derivation of my username, which got blocked here.

2. You make nasty edits such as this (the term Leprechaun economics was created by a Nobel prize winner, covered by many WP:RS/P, and the creator even tweeted a link to the Wikipedia article here).

3. You then try to edit tax-related articles to "whitewash" links to Ireland (and particular the Leprechaun economics article), however, it is clear from this edit that you don't understand the basics of this area; you then resort to edit warring and break WP:3RR on Tax havens here (which you have still not revered).

4. It is clear from your promotional Dublin Landings article (and edits to related articles like Ballymore Group, developer of Dublin Landings) you have a COI re Dubin commercial real estate (probably why you are so obsessed with "whitewashing" Irish tax-related articles); although, in contrast to Leprechaun economics, you have no problem over-linking to Dublin Landings, here, here, (there are many others).

5. However, things take a turn when you start to try and recruit WP:MEATPUPPETS from another new editor here, who also "whitewashes", against all advice not to, another Irish finance article.

6. But at the same time as 5., things really go off the deep-end when you compile extensive personal materials on me which had to be revdel'ed by Stwalkerster (and I think TonyBallioni) here, and which contained several attempts at WP:OUTING, including listing names and other personal details. I don't think that if the totality of your hounding and harassment of me was known by those checkuser admins.

This is getting pretty sick and creepy, and it is clear that you will take extreme measures on your mission against me. Britishfinance (talk) 13:10, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

{note, I am also reposting this on your talk page given the seriousness of the situation). Britishfinance (talk) 13:10, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Deletion review for User:Queerly Bohemian/Userboxes/FreedomFighters

An editor has asked for a deletion review of User:Queerly Bohemian/Userboxes/FreedomFighters. Because you closed the deletion discussion for this page, speedily deleted it, or otherwise were interested in the page, you might want to participate in the deletion review.
This isn't personal, I just simply believe the close , even though it was well intentioned, was controversial and as such violated WP:Badnac. This close raised issues such as TOS and Polemic and as such, especially with TOS, makes it a controversial close, and would really require an admin. Necromonger...We keep what we kill 13:58, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Wekeepwhatwekill, absolutely no problem with this and you are entirely within your rights. I believed that the "no consensus" was so clear that it was not so controversial, however, let us see what the community thinks. All the best. Britishfinance (talk) 14:50, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Thank you (By the way, did you see the note in the DRV promoting you for sysop-hood ?  :) Necromonger...We keep what we kill 14:57, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Italian Riviera

Warning icon It's simple information not promotional or advertising material!! go to Rapallo (Liguria) and see its fountain!! I write non-promotional objective facts. You don't like this painter and sculptor or It is not notable. what's the problem? Certainly not Michelangelo or Leonardo. but who do we put as an artist Banksy or Maurizio Cattelan? Massimo Meda is really an artist and sculptor. You don't want to put it on and then we don't put it on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter39c (talk • contribs) 23:54, 25 December 2019 (UTC)‎

The Signpost: 27 December 2019

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DYK for Six13

On 29 December 2019, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Six13, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the Jewish a cappella group Six13 sings traditional Hanukkah songs and prayers to music from Star Wars? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Six13. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Six13), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Amakuru (talk) 12:02, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for that Amakuru - much appreciated ! Britishfinance (talk) 23:46, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Arbitration case opened

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/RHaworth. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/RHaworth/Evidence. Please add your evidence by January 14, 2019, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/RHaworth/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, CodeLyokotalk 03:32, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Britishfinance!

Happy New Year!

Britishfinance,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
-Nahal(T) 22:49, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

   Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

Thank you for that NahalAhmed, and the best wishes to you as well. Britishfinance (talk) 22:51, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Reza Sholeh

Why you think reza sholeh’s page should be deleted? Samansedighii (talk) 13:46, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately Samansedighii, he fails WP:GNG. Britishfinance (talk) 14:08, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Could you please help me to keep it ? Tell me please what i can do Samansedighii (talk) 14:10, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Steris

Thank you for significantly improving this article, hope to collaborate with you on further editing. - Indefensible (talk) 17:37, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

My pleasure Indefensible, surprised that there was never a page for this company (there was even a page for Synergy Health). Well done. Britishfinance (talk) 17:46, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
Did not realize that the Synergy acquisition was the first tax inversion merger under the reformed regulations. That seems interesting in itself; you are right that it is surprising that this subject went for so long without an article. Have noticed that coverage of other companies is seemingly lacking on Wikipedia and will be trying to add improvements, for example Intertek is a fairly large company with 42k employees from 1888 and an article not much better. - Indefensible (talk) 17:56, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
Sounds good Indefensible - I personally think WP is weak in the company/ceo area, and prone to deleting company articles even though they are worth billions/employ thousands, but maintain obscure bands and songs? Definitely, any S&P500 company should be a WP article. Best of luck. Britishfinance (talk) 18:00, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – January 2020

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Administrators' newsletter – March 2020

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  • A motion was passed to enact a 500/30 restriction on articles related to the history of Jews and antisemitism in Poland during World War II (1933–45), including the Holocaust in Poland. Article talk pages where disruption occurs may also be managed with the stated restriction.
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Orphaned non-free image File:World Travel Awards.png

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New Page Patrol December Newsletter

Hello Britishfinance,

A chart of the 2020 New Page Patrol Queue

Year in review

It has been a productive year for New Page Patrol as we've roughly cut the size of the New Page Patrol queue in half this year. We have been fortunate to have a lot of great work done by Rosguill who was the reviewer of the most pages and redirects this past year. Thanks and credit go to JTtheOG and Onel5969 who join Rosguill in repeating in the top 10 from last year. Thanks to John B123, Hughesdarren, and Mccapra who all got the NPR permission this year and joined the top 10. Also new to the top ten is DannyS712 bot III, programmed by DannyS712 which has helped to dramatically reduce the number of redirects that have needed human patrolling by patrolling certain types of redirects (e.g. for differences in accents) and by also patrolling editors who are on on the redirect whitelist.

Rank Username Num reviews Log
1 DannyS712 bot III (talk) 67,552 Patrol Page Curation
2 Rosguill (talk) 63,821 Patrol Page Curation
3 John B123 (talk) 21,697 Patrol Page Curation
4 Onel5969 (talk) 19,879 Patrol Page Curation
5 JTtheOG (talk) 12,901 Patrol Page Curation
6 Mcampany (talk) 9,103 Patrol Page Curation
7 DragonflySixtyseven (talk) 6,401 Patrol Page Curation
8 Mccapra (talk) 4,918 Patrol Page Curation
9 Hughesdarren (talk) 4,520 Patrol Page Curation
10 Utopes (talk) 3,958 Patrol Page Curation
Reviewer of the Year

John B123 has been named reviewer of the year for 2020. John has held the permission for just over 6 months and in that time has helped cut into the queue by reviewing more than 18,000 articles. His talk page shows his efforts to communicate with users, upholding NPP's goal of nurturing new users and quality over quantity.

NPP Technical Achievement Award

As a special recognition and thank you DannyS712 has been awarded the first NPP Technical Achievement Award. His work programming the bot has helped us patrol redirects tremendously - more than 60,000 redirects this past year. This has been a large contribution to New Page Patrol and definitely is worthy of recognition.

Six Month Queue Data: Today – 2262 Low – 2232 High – 10271

To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here

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