Template talk:Infobox UK place/Archive 18

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Space between population and population reference is unnecessary

Please remove the space, MOS suggests we don't have spaces before references. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:21, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Please give an example of an article that displays this problem. It looks fine to me in Bodmin and in Belfast. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:17, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

The problem is that if |population_ref= begins with a <ref> tag, there should be no space; but if it begins with anything else, there should be a space. At present we take the latter course. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:49, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, anything that uses that markup has an erroneous space. The template should be coded to address that error. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:43, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

static_image_caption for missing images

If an infobox has no photo (ie. static_image_name is blank) but static_image_caption is defined, should that caption be printed or hidden? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chalk_Farm&oldid=779485871 was printing it, which doesn't seem very helpful to the reader. --Gapfall (talk) 08:40, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Looks like the template should be modified to not output the caption if there is no image present. Keith D (talk) 00:45, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

 Fixed, I believe. Let me know if I caused any problems. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:25, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks looks like that change solves the problem. Keith D (talk) 11:17, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Historic counties

It is time to revisit the omission of historic counties in this template. There used to be a field for historic counties in this template (as there was in the erstwhile London Place infobox), but they were removed without consensus. The Office for National Statistics have included historic county data in the official Index of British Place names since 2016 (http://geoportal.statistics.gov.uk/datasets/index-of-place-names-in-great-britain-july-2016/), so there is now no justification for not including it in this template. GwentWatch (talk) 14:04, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

That is a horrible website. Javascript should not take five minutes to run, nor should it prevent the use of the browser's "back" button to get out again. I could not find any of this "historic county data" - what steps did you take to see it? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:52, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Its not designed for direct access by humans, but is more of a direct link to the backend for APIs. This link gets to the data, and queries can be built up like this. I'm not sure if we need to use it - the relevant data is already known in 99.9% of cases?--Nilfanion (talk) 22:00, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

The easiest way is to click on the "Data" tab and then zoom in to the map - the historic county field is called 'ctyhistnm'. I am not suggesting we use the front-end web site to access the data, as (as has been pointed out) it is already known. It merely illustrates that the data are available from an official government source, which assuages any previous doubts about incorporating it into the infobox. GwentWatch (talk) 09:39, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Adjustment to specify a custom location map

This will allow the specification of a custom map (and changing the caption) within the template. This is useful for suburbs of cities. Of course, it would be better if the city was integrated into the system, however this parameter will add flexibility. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 20:11, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

@Bellezzasolo: It is somewhat difficult to understand what you are asking for. Please don't paste code blobs into a talk page - instead, make your proposed changes to the template's sandbox, then they may be tested and demonstrated. More at WP:TESTCASES. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:03, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

@Redrose64: I’ve integrated that into the sandbox. Test cases should not exhibit any change. My change is to allow specification of a custom location map. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 12:10, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Just to add, I've added the sample to the right, to demonstrate the usage of the new parameters. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 12:22, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Per WP:TESTCASES, the testcases belong at Template:Infobox UK place/testcases, so I've added a section at Template:Infobox UK place/testcases#Custom location map. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:02, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

I can definitely see the advantage of having an even more zoomed-in map, but I am not sure about the syntax. it would be nice if the additional local map could be prepended to the list of existing maps with the "switcher" enabled for switching between the maps. Frietjes (talk) 20:45, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

I added my proposed tweak to the sandbox, and updated the testcases page. Frietjes (talk) 20:51, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

@Frietjes: I really like that result. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 17:30, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Bellezzasolo, now added to the main template. Frietjes (talk) 14:01, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Looks decent for me. The only real concern I have is the clash between the two map styles - but that would need standardisation of the maps themselves.--Nilfanion (talk) 16:44, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 22 February 2018

Add pushpin_map back into the "Check for unknown parameters" section. Ahwiv (talk) 04:50, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

 Done @Ahwiv: like this? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 07:47, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

@MSGJ:Yes. Thank you! Ahwiv (talk) 12:40, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

New Parameter, general changes

Further to my last change, which added the |pushpin_map= parameter, I propose this change.

• Adds - |pushpin_map_caption=, the caption for the pushpin map specified above.
• Changed - removal of caption removal if a |pushpin_map= is specified - it is possible to now have captions for both.
• Changed - from the old method of captioning to A {{Location map}} |caption=

This is possible due to a change to Location map. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 20:56, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

There has been no opposition to this proposal, so I intend to make it shortly — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:29, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

 Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:49, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

I consider pushpin_map to be a great idea and works really well. Unfortunately I'm a lot less convinced by pushpin_map_caption because to me it just adds clutter. The pushpin has a clear label on the map, it is obvious what it is (and the infobox has a title). Perhaps the problem is not so obvious at Jericho, Oxford but see my sandbox for the effect it would have at Bletchley and Fenny Stratford. Obviously just because a facility is provided doesn't mandate its use but I worry about a well-meaning individual creating a bot to do it to every article. Am I alone in this? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:00, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

A soultion to the clutter issue on your sandbox would be to cut it back to just "shown within MK urban area", I think. I'd hope that nobody would create a bot without running it through BAG first. ∰Bellezzasolo✡ Discuss 22:15, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

But the radio buttons are already labeled thus, so what value is being added by (in effect) doing it twice? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:57, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

I support this and I suggest the automatically generated caption for the automatically generated map be simplified this way too. Also, the new parameters now need to be added to the documentation (as soon as we're happy they're working correctly). Also this template generates an error in preview mode (see the examples listed above by John Maynard Friedman), falsely complaining that |pushpin_map= isn't a valid parameter. -- Dr Greg  talk  22:29, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Copyright notice

It occurs to me that the purpose for which we really ought to use this facility is to append Mapping © Openstreetmap contributors since we are required to do that anyway. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:57, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

I have updated my sandbox example to show the effect. [PS, would someone tell me how to wlink to an &oldid= to replace my kludge above?] --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:27, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

The simplest fix is to use single square brackets and no pipe - I've amended it above. You can also use the {{oldid}} template: my sandbox or go through a special page my sandbox. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:57, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

How does the map_type parameter work?

Are there any clues as to how the map_type parameter works? If you want to use an infobox for an area that straddles the English/Welsh border (such as Whixall Moss, for instance), the moment you put "England and Wales" in the Country parameter, it seems to totally ignore anything you put in the map_type parameter, and just shows a map of the United Kingdom. I have tried all sorts of combinations, but I can only get a UK or World map, unless I pretend that the feature is only in England. Bob1960evens (talk) 16:57, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Bob1960evens, I believe this template is generally used for human settlements. for nature reserves, I would suggest {{infobox protected area}} or {{infobox park}}. however, if you really do want to use this template, use |pushpin_map= to specify a local location map. Frietjes (talk) 17:06, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Frietjes Thanks for that. I was just beginning to wonder if there might be something else that was similar. Bob1960evens (talk) 17:12, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Civil Parish link query

I've noticed that this template links to the Civil parish article, which only covers England. Should it not either link to Civil parish (disambiguation), or be flexible enough to allow a link to Civil parishes in Ireland, Civil parishes in Scotland and Civil parishes in Wales as appropriate as well? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grinner (talk • contribs) 13:20, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

It's been suggested several times, see the archives of this page. In short: only if they are a verifiable level of local government. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:44, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Okay, I guess that field ought not to be used for Scottish articles then? I will remove the instance that first alerted me to this issue (Assynt).Grinner (talk) 07:12, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

I can't remember - is there the equivalent field for Welsh and Scottish Communities? The Welsh ones are the direct equivalent to English CPs, while the Scottish ones are a close analog.--Nilfanion (talk) 21:30, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

For Wales, use |community_wales=, as in this edit. For Scotland, there is no parameter, as I have already pointed out. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:53, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

The Scottish Community Council areas are a current, verifiable level of local government, and are the equivalent to the others so should be included then.--Nilfanion (talk) 22:03, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

Didn't we discuss this at Template talk:Infobox UK place/Archive 16#civil parishes outside england? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 00:20, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

I think that decided "only show English CPs". Its also 3 years old and didn't have much involvement. It didn't really comment on the Scottish communities - I for one would support adding them, as they do have some local government functions.--Nilfanion (talk) 18:40, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

I would very much support being able to include Scottish community councils. As you say, unlike parishes, they have a statutory function. Grinner (talk) 18:58, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

It would be useful if the template documentation contained guidance on which parameters should be used in which parts of the UK. -- Dr Greg  talk  22:32, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

So can we get community councils for Scotland added to the template then? Grinner (talk) 07:51, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

I have added |community_scotland= as a test in the sandbox if you want to try it out. I have also added |community_scotland1=, |community_scotland2= and |community_scotland3= as per the Welsh version but do not know if these are appropriate. Keith D (talk) 12:20, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, but what does that mean? If you can link to this sandbox I'll probably work it out. Cheers! Grinner (talk) 13:43, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

The sandbox is at Template:Infobox UK place/sandbox and you can test it at Template:Infobox UK place/testcases.-- Dr Greg  talk  18:50, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Dr Greg for clarifying. I have added a line to the testcases for the Cove Bay example to show this. Keith D (talk) 20:45, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Excellent, thanks to Dr Greg for doing this, and Keith D for setting up the test case. Looks good to me. Grinner (talk) 07:52, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

As there has been no objections to this I have just published the changes. Keith D (talk) 17:21, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Great, thanks Keith D. Grinner (talk) 18:11, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Small village, village, small town, town

What are the rules for describing a settlement as a small village, a village, a small town or a town? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:48, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Are you talking about in the |type= field or in the article text? If the former then there should be no small/large qualifier, if the latter then may be best to ask at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements. Keith D (talk) 17:08, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, it was the latter, so I'll go and ask there. the |type= field is used for map type, yes? Many thanks for your help, Keith. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:18, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

The |type= field is used to indicate what the place is such as Town, Civil parish, Village etc. Keith D (talk) 21:51, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

I see, thanks. But |type= is not defined in this template? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:54, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

It appears to be missing from the documentation, though is shown in the infobox in documentation. Keith D (talk) 21:57, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I found that a bit confusing. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:02, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

A UK settlement (other than a city) is, by and large, free to decide for itself whether it is a town, village or hamlet. But a typical distinction is that towns have a town council; villages have a parish council; hamlets have no council (although they will be within the bounds of the town or parish council of a nearby settlement and so may be represented on that council). --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

That is an over-simplification, IMHO. Many villages don't have their own parish council; some civil parishes don't have a village. The traditional distinction is that a town has a market, a village has a church, and a hamlet has neither. In modern times, many towns no longer have a market but retain the title, but I think the village/hamlet distinction still holds reasonably good. But as RedRose says, there is no longer any enforcement around any of this (if there ever was) and there are cases where places have just made up their own minds. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 12:49, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

"Static" image?

I noticed this when adding photos to articles which hadn't had one before. Why call the parameter "static_image" when "image" would do as well, and is shorter? Any image is only static until someone finds a better one, anyway. Just curious. --Schlosser67 (talk) 04:45, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

That's a question for MRSC (talk · contribs) who made this edit over eleven years ago - at a time when it wasn't even a template but still a userspace draft. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:46, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

@MRSC: Could you comment on this? Whenever you've got the time, it's not urgent. --Schlosser67 (talk) 12:02, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Communities again

Fields for "community_scotland" and "community_wales" were added. So that this can be used by normal users, not just aficionados, could this be, as an option, just "community"? That could work for Wales or Scotland, or indeed England (some English parish councils call themselves "Community Council"). The other data in the infobox is sufficient to identify which part of the UK the village in question is in, allowing the link to point to the appropriate article. LG02 (talk) 15:46, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

What is a "community" in England? In Wales, a community has a legally-defined role and place in local government hierarchy. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:54, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

The legal term is 'civil parish'. Several parish councils call themselves 'community council' in accordance with the Localism Act, and it is possible that an editor might add the name of the parish as |community= for that reason. Not all editors study the detailed coding before contributing.

I was actually thinking about simplifying things for Wales and Scotland, but if we make that adaptation, to allow just "community" as a parameter, then it is as easy to add England as not. LG02 (talk) 22:05, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

European Constituencies: prospective change

Thinking nine months in advance, at 11 pm on 29 March 2019, the EU Parliament constituency data will have to disappear. That could be set up in advance, but in any case I should flag it up.

Several town / village articles have the Euro-constituency in the text also, in the 'Governance' section. Those ought to be tagged for change in March (is there a 'Brexit change' tag?) but it will be hard to find them individually until the infobox has changed. LG02 (talk) 14:20, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Post town field, like any other, should be in normal sentence case.

This is an encyclopaedia: our purpose is to present information. An encyclopedia exists to give information to readers: it is not our function to act as a servant of the Royal Mail to give instructions to people as to how to format envelopes, except in the relevant page. I used to live in a place called Bickley, for which the local post town was called Bromley. It is not called BROMLEY. It is ugly and inappropriate to have one field in an infobox that is in all capitals, and it serves no purpose. Nobody, but nobody, who wants to write an envelope and is uncertain how to address it looks to Wikipedia to find out. The fielditself is of minimal value, but the formatting of it is simply ugly and unnecessary. Kevin McE (talk) 11:08, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

IoM in template title

This template evidently seeks to be applicable to England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, and the Isle of Man. Why then, does it have a title that only encompasses 4 of those 5 entities? Either fork off a template for Man, or make the title reflect reality. It only ever needs to be typed once for each article, so it is not adding undue difficulty, and given that few new articles for UK/Manx places are likely to come into existence, the workload is almost non existent. Given that, is there any reason not to change? Kevin McE (talk) 11:16, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Elevation

I'm wondering why this template does not appear to support the elevation_* parameters that are supported by Template:Infobox settlement. They would seem to be as relevant here as they are there, especially in the more upland areas of the UK. Could they be added?. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 14:11, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Coordinates causing error

This error has suddenly appeared out of the blue on all pages which include Template:Infobox UK place eg w:cy:Martin, Swydd Lincoln. The coordinates used to be a shade above the infobox. Any ideas, please?

Thanks! Llywelyn2000 (talk) 06:00, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

You may want to compare MediaWiki:Vector.css and cy:MediaWiki:Vector.css and copy over some of the code to see if that helps. -- WOSlinker (talk) 11:21, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Spot on! Many thanks! However, I'm unable to edit cy:MediaWiki:Vector.css, although I'm an Ombudsman etc. That's a first for me! I'll look into why! Llywelyn2000 (talk) 12:46, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Template protected edit request

The “country” section should be appear “constituent country” to make it clearer as some people see the terms “country” and “sovereign state” as the same. IWI (chat) 21:59, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

This change was made in 2009 to "reduce text overflow" in the infobox. See this discussion. Maybe experiment in the sandbox to see how the spacing is affected? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:40, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please make your requested changes to the template's sandbox first; see WP:TESTCASES. Martin's response reads like an sb response to me. Marking inactive while awaiting sandbox edits. Cabayi (talk) 11:11, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

@Cabayi:Done. IWI (chat) 16:19, 1 November 2018 (UTC)

Wales unitary authorities

There is a problem with the "unitary_wales" parameter sometimes not bringing up the local pushpin map. For example "Merthyr Tydfil" brings up the Merthyr Tydfil County Borough map, but links to the town of Merthyr Tydfil in the text below the map. Using "Merthyr Tydfil County Borough" defaults to the the pushpin map to the whole of Wales. Is there some way of correcting this, so the wikilink links to the unitary authority and not the town? This doesn't appear to be a problem for other Wales unitary authorities, for example Conwy County Borough or Wrexham County Borough. Sionk (talk) 23:00, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Gathering indications of tentative support

In my opinion, the infobox obscures its purpose for using boldface text when all of the sub-headings are given bold. Before seeking to tone it down, I'd like to hear the opinions of other interested editors. Thank you.--John Cline (talk) 16:05, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

May t I suggest that you create an example of what you have in mind in your sandbox, so we can see what it would look like. I'm having difficulty seeing any great problem with the current version. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:08, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I'll work-up an example. Thanks.--John Cline (talk) 17:14, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

It happens that a person can look at an identical situation, differentiated only by an interval of time, and yet see the details in an inexplicably different way. This has happened to me upon reviewing this thread. I find that I agree completely with John Maynard Friedman in saying "I'm having difficulty seeing any great problem with the current version"; I'm not seeing any problems at all, in fact, and am confused as to what I perceived problematic earlier. Everything is pretty darn normal and I'd like to bow gracefully out of discussing the matter any further. Thank you for understanding (I hope that you do) and thank you for indulging my err.--John Cline (talk) 02:58, 17 January 2019 (UTC)