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This is where the Did you know section on the main page, its policies, and its processes can be discussed.

DYKToolsBot not working

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RoySmith, DYKToolsBot hasn't updated in two weeks. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the note, I'll take a look. RoySmith (talk) 15:37, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. There's a cron job that's been running for a bit over 14 days, which is probably what's holding everything up (as I understand it, cron won't kick off a new job while an old one is still running). I'm not sure what got it wedged, but I've manually kicked off a run and that seems to be working fine so I'll probably just kill the stuck job and see what happens. RoySmith (talk) 16:01, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside on this, I'd really like to see more joint custody of all the bits and pieces that make DYK run. I hadn't looked at this stuff for over a year and it took me some time to figure out how it all worked again. If I got run over by a bus and somebody had to pick it up from scratch, it would have been even harder. The more we're all familiar with all the moving pieces, the more resilient we all are to roving homicidal busses. RoySmith (talk) 21:01, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking of, just noticed that GalliumBot is down, if theleekycauldron isn't already aware. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 08:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@AirshipJungleman29: he's back! (i think.) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 01:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know nominations/Luo Shiwen

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Hi there. Would it be possible to request a second pair of eyes at Template:Did you know nominations/Luo Shiwen? The reviewer, Buidhe and myself disagree about the use of CCP-related sources and its potential impact on article neutrality.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 18:20, 30 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know/Preparation area 3

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Cock Destroyers +1

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I can't touch this because I wrote the articles, but would "that The Cock Destroyers (pictured) released a "gloriously queer" sex education video for Netflix before hosting Slag Wars: The Next Destroyer" flow better?--Launchballer 13:14, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For your information, I only created the article to fill a redlink at Megan Barton-Hanson since the GA reviewer was asking about it, there is another hook on the nomination that censors the name as "porn stars", and that Fucking Cunt hook received absolutely no blowback whatsoever at WP:ERRORS (and only rocked up at WT:DYK after the nominator objected to it being run too late). If cunt didn't cause offense then, cock shouldn't cause offense now.--Launchballer 21:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dundonald House

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My count is 439 bytes before expansion, 2219 bytes after expansion. That is narrowly above x5. --Soman (talk) 19:32, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

DYKUpdateBot is down; midnight update delayed

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Regrettably, DYKUpdateBot didn't run at midnight; normally, the update of the main page and all the other moves and credits would have been completed by now.

I have notified Shubinator on his talk page (I initially noticed that DYKHousekeepingBot was down, and discovered that DYKUpdateBot also seemed to be down), in the hopes that he can start the bot soon. In the meantime, we will need an admin to do a manual update: pinging @DYK admins: in the hopes that one of you can step in. Thank you very much. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:10, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'll do the adminny stuff, if someone else can handle the credits and tags :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 00:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
DYKUpdateBot came back online a few minutes after BlueMoonset's message, and had already updated when your update began. Probably best to undo your update? Otherwise one set was on DYK for just 5 minutes. Shubinator (talk) 00:20, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, just undid. My bad! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 00:22, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great, looks good now! Shubinator (talk) 00:24, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know/Preparation area 4

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He Jianshi

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If this is where I think it is, ("He believed that the Chinese opera could be used to cultivate support for the revolutionaries,[2] and in 1906 he had – together with Pan Dawei, Lai Yitao, and Liang Juexian – established the Youshijie Drama Society in Guangzhou to advance the revolutionary interest, with He as its manager.[9]"), then it probably ought to spell out that the society was used for that purpose. I can't help you with Selfish.--Launchballer 13:52, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is "to advance the revolutionary interest" not sufficiently explicit? Shame about SELF-ISH... if Prep 3 doesn't get a third set of eyes, I may have to go IAR to avoid a failed update, and it looks like this prep may follow the day after.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My beef is that I'm not convinced opera and drama are necessarily the same thing (I did drama in school and there was no opera in it). If push comes to shove, Fijian Labour Corps in prep 7 checks out and can be swapped but let's see if someone else chips in first, and I'll look for another hook in prep if needed.--Launchballer 14:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understand that, but the source is clear that the "Drama society" was the name of an opera troupe. "Sun Yat-sen promoted the democratic revolution and regarded drama as an important means [for revolution]. He Jianshi responded positively. In 1906, he, Pan Dawei, Lai Yitao, Liang Juexian and others established the "Youshijie Drama Society" in the Baoan Charity Hall at Huangsha Tiyun Bridge in Guangzhou. He served as the general supervisor and carried out the work of improving Cantonese opera." The spoken-word form of drama, huaju, hadn't arrived until a few years earlier and didn't become mainstream until the 1930s. If you're still uncomfortable with this, He Jianshi's anti-American activities are well documented, including in English, and there was an ALT about not carrying William Howard Taft that could be used. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 14:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, that's fine. This is good to go.--Launchballer 14:46, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SELF-iSH

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As we have another nudity in music videos hook in the next set I suggest kicking this one back anyway per the previous section.--Launchballer 11:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Morgan695, Explicit, Kimikel, and Koopastar: Pinging around so there are no surprises.--Launchballer 13:07, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Margaret Pargeter

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  • ... that Margaret Pargeter was one of the most widely read authors in Britain in 1986?

The data in the source is from 1985 (the article was published in March 1986, so it can't provide information for that year). I'm also not convinced about the data being bundled by genre (the most popular books were romance novels by five authors including Pargeter, but it doesn't give any actual data for each one) but that's not objectively wrong because of the dreaded "one of"... Black Kite (talk) 00:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming it checks out, "that Margaret Pargeter wrote 49 novels between 1975 and 1986 and published her 50th in 1997" would be a good hook. All references to it in prose are cited to the 1997 novel though. Also, pinging @Cielquiparle, ResonantDistortion, and Hilst:.--Launchballer 10:41, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I quite like your alt hook. – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 11:01, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Launchballer Thanks for the suggestion. Here's my tweak (to make it less "pat" so that there is still something to click for):
  • ... that Margaret Pargeter published 49 novels within 11 years, followed by her 50th novel 11 years later?
Cielquiparle (talk) 20:04, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is this a reliable source? It doesn't appear to be user generated, and it cites your alt hook apart from the fact it says the 50th was published in 1998 (suspect that might be the US release date, as all other sources say 1997). For someone who was supposedly such a widely-read author, there is very little about her work - I can't even find a proper obituary. Black Kite (talk) 14:19, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The fact she was a volunteer fire-fighter in the ARP during WWII might be a decent hook as well. Black Kite (talk) 14:22, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per [1], basic members can update the site. So no, not an RS.--Launchballer 14:42, 4 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Older nominations needing DYK reviewers

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The previous list was archived about half an hour ago, so I've created a new list of 31 nominations that need reviewing in the Older nominations section of the Nominations page, covering everything through October 1. We have a total of 321 nominations, of which 135 have been approved, a gap of 186 nominations that has increased by 16 over the past 6 days. Thanks to everyone who reviews these and any other nominations!

More than one month old

Other nominations

Please remember to cross off entries, including the date, as you finish reviewing them (unless you're asking for further review), even if the review was not an approval. Please do not remove them entirely. Many thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 15:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am around and will perhaps take a look at a few nominations by tomorrow. Regards, Aafi (talk) 14:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know/Preparation area 5

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Flag of Falcón +1

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@Soman: I added a {{cn}} tag to the Flag article as I don't see anywhere that "23 states of Venezuela" is sourced. Also, what makes it notable, given that there are only two references in the article?--Launchballer 12:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get the {cn} tag issue. Are you disputing that Falcon is a state or that Venezuela has 23 states? Or that Falcon has a flag? And for notability, we generally don't test notability of state and national flags. --Soman (talk) 23:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm saying I think there should be a cite for Venezuela having 23 states, yes. (Also, not really a DYK issue, but regarding "having large whitespace in bottom is not good for readibility", I couldn't agree more - which is exactly why I moved the last three images to a gallery!)--Launchballer 23:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's OK I'm OK

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@MaranoFan, Viriditas, Crisco 1492, and Kimikel: "Edited into it later" needs an end-of-sentence citation.--Launchballer 11:09, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Viriditas (talk) 11:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fine by me.--Launchballer 11:25, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Deutscher Kurzwellensender Atlantik

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@Dumelow, Bruxton, and Flibirigit: I believe this needs an end-of-sentence citation.--Launchballer 11:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fine by me.--Launchballer 11:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Abraham Hamadeh

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Template:Did you know/Preparation area 6

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Ye Yanlan

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Looks good to me.--Launchballer 12:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Disputes on Wikipedia

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  • The cited article is from 2020, and knowing the community... is this still current enough, or should we mark the year? Pinging ProfGray, Viriditas, and Kimikel — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi. @Crisco 1492, please be more specific. Which hook are you planning to go with? In what way would you mark the year of the article? Just asking for clarification, I'm not objecting to it. ProfGray (talk) 21:41, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi ProfGray. The hook "... that the longest "edit war" sequence among disputes on Wikipedia involved 20 editors making 108 reverts on the article about Turkey's first president, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk?" is currently in Prep 6 (linked above). Given that this data is four years old, and Wikipedians tend to be... passionate, I'm wondering if this source is sufficiently current to meet WP:DYKDEFINITE. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:44, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The prepper chose the hook, however, it's on me for not noticing the date. I would swap it out with ALT2 as that's the newest source of the bunch (2023). Viriditas (talk) 21:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm fine with ALT2, of course.
    For the concern about ALT1, note that the longest revert sequence happened in 2008 within 48 hours. I believe this fact (or record) is highly unlikely to change (re: WP:DYKDEFINITE) because of how 3RR has been handled for the past decade or more. Thanks. ProfGray (talk) 22:01, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That is fair, though I note their sample size was only a little more than 1,200 articles. I haven't been able to find a full copy of the text through the Wikipedia library or Google. If it's alright with you, I think ALT2 is better supported. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 22:12, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know nominations/Rei Nakashima

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I created and nominated this article a couple of days ago, and I would like to request for an expediated review as I'd like the hook to run on the 27th, which is Nakashima's 20th birthday. Thank you and I hope someone can review the article soon. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:06, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Queue 5

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Núria Llansà

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@Hilst, Kingsif, and Cardofk: The wording of the hook is kind of awkward. Could this be reworked? RoySmith (talk) 15:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@RoySmith: Sorry for the delay. How about "... that despite being Barcelona's starting goalkeeper for 1972, Núria Llansà played one match as a right-back?" – 🌻 Hilst (talk | contribs) 14:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done, thanks. RoySmith (talk) 15:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Flag of Falcón

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@Kimikel, Soman, and Crisco 1492: The hook is technically short enough (exactly 200 character), but it's a mouthful. Could this be significantly shortened? No need to cram every detail into the hook; just enough to get the reader's attention. RoySmith (talk) 15:14, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest "that the current flag of Falcón, first hoisted at the Monument to the Venezuelan Federation in 2006, is based on a then-200-year-old naval flag" or even "that the current flag of Falcón was first hoisted at the Monument to the Venezuelan Federation in 2006" if you're feeling ruthless, but I still want the {{cn}} and notability concerns I raised above resolved.--Launchballer 15:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lichfield War Memorial

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@Kimikel, Dumelow, and Flibirigit: There's significant WP:CLOP from historicengland.org.uk. Some of it is unavoidable, but there's a lot of text describing the structure which is so obviously directly from the source it should be quoted and attributed rather than trying to tweak a few words here or there. RoySmith (talk) 15:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The above concern is too vague to parse. When analyzing Earwig results, I see proper nouns and directly attributed quotes. Exactly which passages do you find problematic? Flibirigit (talk) 16:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a some obvious examples. There's more, keep looking on your own. Note that WP:CLOP says Close paraphrasing, or patchwriting, is the superficial modification of material from another source. Editors should generally summarize source material in their own words.
In the years prior to the First World War the city of Lichfield housed the depot for the four reserve battalions of the South Staffordshire Regiment and the North Staffordshire Regiment
By the First World War, Lichfield was the depot for the four Reserve Battalions of the South Staffordshire and North Staffordshire Regiments
Bateman also designed the war memorial, which was constructed by Messrs Robert Bridgeman and Sons of Lichfield. The War Memorial Committee decided to restrict eleigibility for appearing on the memorial to men who were born in the city or who lived there at the time of their enlistment
The large war memorial screen, also designed by Bateman, was built by Messrs Robert Bridgeman and Sons against the east wall. It commemorates 209 local servicemen who died during the First World War: the War Memorial Committee had decided to restrict the names to those of the fallen who had been born in Lichfield, or who were living in the city at the time they enlisted
The garden and memorial were opened on 20 October 1920 by the mayor, H. G. Hall, and dedicated the same day by the Bishop of Lichfield John Kempthorne. The ceremony was attended by a large number of dignitaries, the buglers of the 6th Battalion of the North Staffordshire Regiment, the band of the 2nd Battalion of the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry and choirs from the cathedral and local churches
The garden was opened, and the memorial screen unveiled, on 20 October 1920 by the Mayor, Councillor HG Hall, and dedicated by the Bishop of Lichfield. The garden was filled with a crowd of civic and ecclesiastical dignitaries, the families of the commemorated men, representatives of the armed services and the uniformed organisations, buglers of the 6th Battalion North Staffordshire Regiment, the band of the 2nd Battalion Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry, the combined choirs of the cathedral and Lichfield’s churches, and local residents
RoySmith (talk) 17:12, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I have been away for a few days. I will gladly take others advice on this but my understanding per WP:FACTSONLY is that facts are not copyrightable, only creative writing is. In my view the examples above are restatements of facts from the source, but happy to look again if we think creative elements have been copied - Dumelow (talk) 07:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am inclined to largely agree. To me, the only part which goes beyond WP:LIMITED is the last sentence of the second highlighted paragraph. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 12:44, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have solved that problem by yeeting that sentence, as adding "the city's" to an earlier paragraph says the same thing.--Launchballer 13:02, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Roy, I have looked multiple times on my own, and your claims are not obvious. The sections highlighted by Earwig are groups of proper nouns which are not close paraphrasing violations. The lengthy quotes are properly attributed. I do not see where you are coming from on this. Best wishes. Flibirigit (talk) 12:33, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know/Preparation area 7

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Ye Gongchuo

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What makes Who's Who reliable? It's listed as red on WP:RSP.--Launchballer 14:59, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fine by me. This took a while to verify everything, but I think this is all there so it should be good to go.--Launchballer 01:08, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SELF-iSH

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Walter Campbell Smith

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WP:DYKN seems messed up

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The articles/templates in November 7 and 8 aren't transcluding. Anyone know what is going on? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:41, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The page has exceeded the maximum number of template transclusions due to the backlog of nominations. It's a known issue. Flibirigit (talk) 17:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For a bit more detail, see WP:PEIS RoySmith (talk) 17:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:57, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:GA had a backlog drive last month. That's probably also got something to do with it.--Launchballer 18:05, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know/Preparation area 1

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Cock Destroyers +1 (2)

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Fengshan (general)

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I can't see any problems with this.--Launchballer 13:10, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Destruction of cultural heritage during the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip (4)

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Pinging all participants to Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 202#Destruction of cultural heritage during the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip 2: @Richard Nevell, Piotrus, Personisinsterest, Hydrangeans, and Chipmunkdavis:.--Launchballer 14:13, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Did you know/Preparation area 2

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Gitmo playlist

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Xinwen Bao

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Template:Did you know/Preparation area 3

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Muthkwey

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Also noting here that I populated Prep 4, and thus won't be able to touch it. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 15:11, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Correction for tomorrow?

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We've been discussing posting correction bullets here and there when we get hooks wrong. I think this would be a good time to test it:

  • Correction: A hook that aired yesterday claimed that "the Holy See has an official anime mascot", named Luce. Luce is only the mascot of the Catholic Church's 2025 Jubilee, and while its design has been compared to anime, it is not Japanese animation or artwork.

Pinging @Tamzin, Wound theology, Secretlondon, Di (they-them), and Crisco 1492 for thoughts :) theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Whether it was an error

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Subsectioned by Tamzin at 21:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
The 2025 Jubilee is overseen by the Holy See, so she is for intents and purposes a mascot of (owned by) the Holy See as a mascot of one of its projects. In this case the word "anime" is being used to describe the art style, not necessarily Japanese animation; "anime style" is a well-known phenomenon even in art that isn't necessarily from Japan. I don't think the hook is inaccurate, it just uses the terms in a slightly different way than you interpreted them. Di (they-them) (talk) 20:57, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think there's a difference between having a mascot for a specific procession and being a mascot of the organization as a whole. Miraitowa and Someity are only mascots of the 2020 Olympics, not all of the Games in perpetuity. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:01, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but it would not be inaccurate to describe Miraitowa and Someity as "Olympic mascots" or "mascots of the Olympics". They are not the mascots of all Olympics, but they are examples of mascots of the Olympics. I think the same thing applies to Luce here. Luce is not the mascot of the Holy See, but she is a mascot used by the Holy See. "The Holy See has a mascot" does not necessarily only imply the former. Di (they-them) (talk) 21:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (ec) I am going to note that Merriam Webster gives a more general definition of anime as "a style of animation originating in Japan that is characterized by stark colorful graphics depicting vibrant characters in action-filled plots often with fantastic or futuristic themes"; Britannica likewise gives "a style of animation that was created in Japan and that uses colorful images, strong characters, and stories that have a lot of action". Although several dictionaries do require Japanese origin as part of their definition, there is a shifting in the language to recognize foreign animation in the anime style as anime. (That being said, our article for non-Japanese anime like Totally Spies! is at Anime-influenced animation, so that link would have been better on the main page). — Chris Woodrich (talk) 20:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I also agree with Di that this is "a mascot owned by the the Holy See" (i.e., the Holy See has this mascot), even if it is not "the mascot of the Holy See".  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:02, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • Does any reliable source call her an "official mascot of the Holy See"? -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:06, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's not what I'm saying she was. In fact, it's the opposite. I refer you to Di's response above. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:10, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        But that's what the hook said she was! The full hook was "... that the Holy See has an official anime mascot?" Does that claim appear in any reliable source? If not, it is an error for our purposes. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:12, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        That's what you are reading the hook as saying. I, as with Di, am reading it as "... the Holy See possesses/owns a mascot", which is entirely supported by the references. Di has made the point very succinctly below: "The hook did not call her the Holy See's mascot. The hook stated that "The Holy See has a mascot", implying ownership. It's like how if I said "The Olympics have ferret mascots", that doesn't necessarily mean that Tina and Milo are the only Olympic mascots or that they represent all Olympic events."  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:14, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        I will point out that I wrote the hook originally, so my interpretation as referring to ownership is the correct/intended meaning. Di (they-them) (talk) 21:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        I'm glad that was your intended meaning, Di, but I would expect it to have been, since I know that you're a capable and competent editor who participates in good faith, and the alternative would have been you introducing a deliberate error, which is not something I suspected of you even for a minute. You made a mistake in wording, not even that large a mistake, but still a mistake that will have now given the wrong impression of Luce's status to anyone who read that hook. It's not the end of the world, but should be corrected, and the fact that you read the hook as saying what you intended isn't really what matters. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        Your and Di's Olympics example relies on the syntactic ambiguity of "The Olympics" meaning either "an individual instance of the Olympic Games" or "the International Olympic Committee". Per [2], Tina and Milo are "the official mascots for the Olympic and Paralympic Winter Games Milano Cortina 2026", and that is how Tina and Milo describes them. To say "the Olympics have ferret mascots" would be not incorrect, but imprecise, owing to that syntactic ambiguity. There is no such ambiguity here. The Holy See is never referred to as the 2025 Jubilee. The Holy See is an entity coördinating the 2025 Jubilee, which in turn has a mascot named Luce, which in no way makes Luce an "official mascot" that the Holy See "has", at least not in the way those words are interpreted by normal people. A better comparison here would be saying "... that the United States has an official mascot who is a bear in a hat", which likewise is not true at least as most people would interpret that. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:26, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        I think that "The United States federal government has a mascot that is a bear in a hat" would be a totally acceptable and accurate claim to make. It does not imply that Smokey represents the entire government, just that the government uses him. Di (they-them) (talk) 21:29, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        Precisely. This "syntactic ambiguity" doesn't stop other sources from using similar phrasing. Like, say, "The Vatican’s cartoon mascot for Jubilee 2025", "The Vatican has a new mascot: an anime girl named Luce", The Anime Mascot of the Catholic Church", etc. etc.  — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:36, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        Those are all WP:HEADLINES. The body of the first says "the Vatican has launched a cartoon mascot unveiled Monday as the cheerful face of the Catholic Church's upcoming holy year" and later in a caption "the official mascot for the Catholic Church’s 2025 Jubilee Year". The body of the second says "The Vatican announced the official mascot for Jubilee 2025". The third is WP:FORBESCON, so not an RS, but regardless doesn't call her the official mascot of the Holy See either.
        More generally, if this is what it's going to be like every time someone suggests a correction—essentially, people involved in an erroneous hook reversing all existing principles of hook accuracy to make it a game of "Is there some theoretical way that the hook isn't an error?"—then we should probably just give up on the process right now. As with Di, I'd suggest you step back and let uninvolved parties comment here. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        "The Holy See has an official anime mascot" is not the same as "Luce is a/the mascot of the Holy See". The former implies ownership, the latter implies that she represents the Holy See specifically. Like, if I said "Nintendo has an electric mouse mascot", that does not mean that Pikachu is the mascot of Nintendo. Di (they-them) (talk) 21:15, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        Is it literally correct that Nintendo has an electric mouse mascot, where has strictly denotes corporate ownership? Sure. Are 99% of readers going to interpret that as saying "Pikachu is the official mascot of Nintendo, broadly construed"? Also yes. Communication is a two-person game, and I think it's worth clarifying when we miscommunicate. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        I should hope not, given that the whole point of a is to indicate "one of several". When I say I have a pen, or I have a pineapple, I'm not implying that mine is the only pen or pineapple in the world (or even my only pen or pineapple). It's the same in this case: they have a mascot, but it is not necessarily to the exclusion of all others. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 21:39, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        Fine, 99% of readers interpret it as "Pikachu is an official mascot of Nintendo, broadly construed". Which it isn't, not unless Harry the Hawk is an official mascot of Tony Ressler. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:43, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
        It's not anime, it's anime-style (according to outsiders). It's also not an official mascot of the Holy See (see above). Secretlondon (talk) 23:25, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I also agree that the "anime" part is borderline. Calling her the Holy See's mascot, though, was a clear misstatement of fact; being close to correct doesn't make it not a misstatement. And if we're correcting the clear error, might as well correct the borderline one too. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:01, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The hook did not call her the Holy See's mascot. The hook stated that "The Holy See has a mascot", implying ownership. It's like how if I said "The Olympics have ferret mascots", that doesn't necessarily mean that Tina and Milo are the only Olympic mascots or that they represent all Olympic events. Di (they-them) (talk) 21:08, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I am going to heavily disagree on the "there is a shifting in the language to recognize foreign animation in the anime style as anime." This is indeed happening to some extent, but it's very inorganic and is indeed something of a sore point among anime fans. The ones who are pushing for the "redefinition" of "anime" are usually the producers of these series themselves. But I digress, this is getting offtopic. Suffice to say, calling Luce an "anime mascot" is debatable, perhaps calling her "anime-style" would have been a suitable compromise. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What a correction would look like

[edit]
Subsectioned by Tamzin at 21:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
I like this idea, but some suggested tweaks:
  • "hook" is jargon and could be replaced with "entry"
  • "said" is preferable to "claimed", standard in corrections in newspapers etc.
  • I don't think "only" is necessary
  • "its" would work for the design, but when saying "its design" the pronoun is referring to the character, so "her" would be correct.
-- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 20:58, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Gotcha, so something like:
  • ALT0a: An entry that aired yesterday said that "the Holy See has an official anime mascot", named Luce. Luce is the mascot of the Catholic Church's 2025 Jubilee, and while her design has been compared to anime, it is not strictly Japanese animation or artwork.
theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:00, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah! Oh and maybe "ran" over "aired", to keep with the newspaper-y feel. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:02, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Was trying to figure out what to do with that one :) ALT0b: An entry that ran yesterday said that "the Holy See has an official anime mascot", named Luce. Luce is the mascot of the Catholic Church's 2025 Jubilee, and while her design has been compared to anime, it is not strictly Japanese animation or artwork. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't think that a "correction" is necessary. I have explained that the hook refers to Luce being owned by the Holy See, and she does indeed fit multiple definitions of anime. This correction feels overly pedantic over a misinterpretation of the language used. Di (they-them) (talk) 21:26, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Di (they-them): You don't need to reply to every message to say it wasn't an error. That's already being discussed above. Maybe this should be subsectioned off into "whether it's an error?" (although this was already discussed at WP:ERRORS) and "what correction if any to run". -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (they|xe) 21:30, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I love the idea of a correction. It would help DYK take ownership of misleading hooks. Secretlondon (talk) 23:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As one of the regulars here who is into anime, seeing non-Japanese originating works being called "anime" triggers my anime fanboy senses. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:48, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Too wordy, which as mentioned below seriously compromises Main Page balance. Would request that the correction be delayed for a couple of days while a better layout is worked out. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:10, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At least. And the two displaced hooks need to go back in.--Launchballer 19:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@AirshipJungleman29 and Launchballer: huh? It's two lines on my screen, same as the two hooks I removed. Wikipedia:Main Page/Tomorrow is balanced for me. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:29, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

General comments

[edit]
Subsectioned by Tamzin at 21:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
Are we doing anything about the large amount of whitespace under "On this day" on Wikipedia:Main Page/Tomorrow?--Launchballer 02:51, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I bumped a couple of hooks back, but OTD probably has to cover the rest. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 05:34, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can't support this. We shouldn't be rearranging sets so close to showtime.--Launchballer 12:32, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, if we want to correct mistakes, it's kind of the only way. Unless you're saying we put corrections in the back of the queue and air them a week later, which I don't love because we'll be reaching barely any of the same readers. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 19:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What makes you think that there are more people reading two sets aired days apart than people reading two sets aired weeks apart? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For sure you're right on that; i just meant that if we're gonna air a correction, we ideally wanna reach as many people who saw the original hook as possible, so the sooner we air it, the better. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:06, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This correction at least takes up a disproportionate amount of space and has involved two hooks being bumped back through no fault of their own. We are not the only ones making errors. If we are to do this, then it should not be part of our box.--Launchballer 20:31, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All right, well, pulled. I'll just say for the record that I don't think a dedicated corrections box is really ever gonna happen, especially since the MP only makes a handful of on-the-page errors every month. And yeah, hooks get bumped sometimes, it's arbitrary and it happens. There goes our chance to be the example that leads to other areas making their own corrections and eventually maybe getting a dedicated box, though. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 20:38, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict)That's not the point of a correction. Most newspaper corrections are buried away in a little box on page 17. A correction is to show the world that you adhere to at least one aspect of the journalism standards. Far better for DYK's purposes would be a link at the bottom, next to the others, which displays "Errors" and links to a page where potential errors and corrections could be stored. FWIW, I don't think think a syntactic ambiguity of the above sort even deserves a correction, but whatever. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:46, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a reason why we don't try to have some kind of errors page listing all the errors we've had? I vaguely remember it being proposed before. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:11, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One thing I'd like to see (I believe I've mentioned this before) is to have the entire history of a hook in one place. Right now it gets scattered across the nom template, one (or possibly more) threads on this page, and maybe on WP:ERROR. RoySmith (talk) 03:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • So is there really no interest or appetite among the regulars for some kind of place where pulls, corrections, etc. are listed or mentioned? I don't know if the correction thing that Leeky proposed was the best option, but having zero form of accountability for errors doesn't seem optimal. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 06:47, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would prefer a standard template for talk pages. It could add each usage to a category for main page corrections, and it wouldn't need anything beyond a |diff-url= parameter. The talk page is already the standard place to discuss or read about updates and corrections to an article. Many online news sites note their corrections on the article page, not on the main page. This would also be more permanent and transparent than a one-day main page notice.
    Previously, I added Wikipedia:Did you know/Removed/2023–24 to the list of Archives and copied in a bunch of other corrections from another archive, but this is something that can only exist if someone is going to put the work in to maintain it. Rjjiii (talk) 07:45, 11 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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