Talk:Metroidvania

Discussion from 2007

I disagree with deletion for this article. Several articles link here (I count 16 real articles). I think it's more constructive to mark it as a stub if the content is too sparse. More content could definitely be added (such as comparisons between the different games to show their similarities to Super Metroid, or other games with similarities), but I don't have the resources for that right now. That's the purpose of a stub, right? Kcumming 15:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

• The nature of Wikipedia has changed recently, to the point that articles without references, especially articles that constitute original research, are being deleted much more frequently than they used to be. The fact that there are no published articles on what exactly a metroidvania is weighs heavily against it having an article here. The fact that the definition you've provided for it contradicts the definition that was here previously simply illustrates the problem of there being no clear definition of the term. For now, the best place for this term is at the Encyclopedia Gamia, which does not require citations. Luvcraft 23:06, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
• I understand. I'll change it to a redirect to a broader page with some information on this topic. There should be somewhere for the links to go, but I agree with the above argument. Kcumming 03:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Cool. Thanks! Luvcraft 17:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

A note on the game table

Mostly for @Phediuk: Keep in mind that any red-linked games need a third-party reliable source to include on this list. (Blue-linked games we presumably can affirm on the game's page for sources). --MASEM (t) 17:38, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Proper noun

Should metroidvania be considered a proper noun, and therefore capitalized? It seems like it would be more of a generic trademark at this point, but maybe the sources disagree. Thoughts? ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:22, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

I've been treating it as such , even though I see more sources of late using the lower-case term. I think we need more time to assess if it becomes more accepted as lower case, and stick with upper/proper case for now. (Contrast to "roguelike" which has dropped the capitalization long ago). --MASEM (t) 22:50, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

List of Metroidvania games

For anyone interested, the list I made last year that was formerly at this page can now be found on my userpage, along with an enormous number of sources that I gathered for that purpose. Feel free to make use of it as you will. Phediuk (talk) 09:30, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

@Phediuk: Why you don't make it as a separate article like List of Metroidvania games? I think the topic is notable enough. --Wario-Man (talk) 10:32, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

He just said it had been deleted! And that's what a category is for. — Smuckola(talk) 00:50, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

We have Lists of video games#By genre and Metroidvania fits there. --Wario-Man (talk) 09:44, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

That category link at the very bottom of the page is much too unnoticeable. I feel like there's a gap on this page where we should be placing the link in a more-noticeable area on the page, or updating the History section with a list of notable Metroidvanias. Barely any of the most popular Metroidvanias are mentioned on this article. --HSukePup (talk) 20:15, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Sorcery+

In 1985 Sorcery+ was released on Amstrad CPC. The game features similar gameplay, such as obtaining keys for opening doors and also a lot of back tracking. See http://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/Sorcery_%2B. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:598:80A5:284E:C83D:638D:B9A7:2D0C (talk) 23:19, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

"Though popularized during the early console generations, the genre saw a resurgence starting in the 2000s"

To quote the text before it "Specifically, the term derives from the Castlevania title Castlevania: Symphony of the Night and many of the games in the franchise which come after it, which are generally considered to contain certain aspects of gameplay comparable to that of the Metroid series of games. As such, the term is used to invoke gameplay concepts and mechanics similar to that of these two series." Castlevania: Symphony of the Night is a 1997 game running on the Playstation. The Playstation, as we have it, is from generation five out of eight generation consoles.

To quote the article further on: "With the releases of Super Metroid and Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, the formula these games presented would form the foundations of what are considered Metroidvanias today. Castlevania: Symphony of the Night had also become a critical and financial success over time, establishing that there was a desire by players for Metroidvania-style games." Thus a 1994 release on a fourth generation console, and a 1997 release on a fifth generation console formed the foundation. Both of these were critical and financial successes; how can there be a resurgence in the 2000s if the foundation games were a critical success in the 1990s? How can it be popularized in the early console generations if the foundations were fourth and fifth generation games?

@Masem: "This is a generalized statement on broad historical perspective." does not answer that in any sense.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:36, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

I consider a fifth gen console to be an early console generation given what we have now, but I can see the confusion issue. I reworked it to be more exacting on the year timing (1990s verses newer 2000s devs). --Masem (t) 00:48, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

"How can there be a resurgence in the 2000s if the foundation games were a critical success in the 1990s?" - That's a good point. I feel like the resurgence is really in the 2010s (e.g. Hollow Knight, Ori and the Blind Forest, Guacamelee, etc.) with the evolution of more fluid-action Metroidvanias. But it's kind of a minor point. --HSukePup (talk) 19:10, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Definition and Characteristics of a Metroidvania

The definition of a Metroidvania has definitely evolved. Many communities no longer consider the side-scrolling, 2D definition to be a hard requirement. Most gaming platforms and media reviews are happy to consider 3D games as Metroidvanias, and have been doing so for over a decade (e.g. Metroid Prime, Arkham Asylum, Prey).

Strong definition points:

• Interconnected world: This emphasizes open exploration from any region to another on a single map (as opposed to a connected-hub or a dungeon-based world design)
• Power-ups: Most Metroidvanias feature collecting power-ups and abilities (usually obtained after a boss fight) that both strengthen the player and unlock access to new regions
• Utility/Ability-gated progression: Access to new areas is provided via acquired power-ups
• Backtracking: Players are encouraged to visit previously-explored regions after unlocking access to sub-regions
• Non-linear progression: Players are usually not forced to explore regions in a specific order

Traditional definition points:

• Side-scrolling
• 2D or 2.5D
• Platforming: Most Metroidvania games include areas with difficult platforming sequences

I recommending updating the page to reflect the evolution in definition. --HSukePup (talk) 19:41, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Do we have a source for that? I don't disagree it has been expanded beyond 2D, but I've not seen a source that gives such rules for a modern metroidvania. --Masem (t) 20:33, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

--

There are multiple news sources that already assume that 3D games can fit the definition.

However, it is somewhat of a chicken-and-egg problem. Until we define it here, most news media are reluctant to make it so. I've been following the Metroidvania subreddit for years. In recent years, the vast majority no longer consider 2D or side-scrolling an important definition for the genre. Platforming still seems to be quite important though. . The main thing preventing most 3D Metroidvania-like games from being true Metroidvanias is not the 3D aspect, but the hardware memory limitations that prevent 3D games from having an interconnected world (e.g. divided sections + loading screens).

The community has already indicated strong interest in including 3D games. At the very least, I recommend mentioning that the definition is either evolving, or that 2D & sidescrolling are loose or disputed definitions. --HSukePup (talk) 16:58, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Keep in mind we can't use reddit at all as a source (outside verified AMAs or RSes repeating details). --Masem (t) 17:02, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

That said, you do have the issue right: WP can't set a definition is not defined elsewhere. A comparable case is made in roguelikes as there is the Berlin Interpretation, well documented, that we can use to show how "roguelike-likes" tend to differ. We don't have anything like that here, and that's possibly because the genre doesn't have the large number of games that roguelikes have. We almost sorta need that type of coming together on an agreement of a definition by users that is then covered by reliable sources to establish the difference. I do think our article does try to say that Metroidvanias are mostly side-scrolling platformers (necessarily 2/2.5D) with some 3D games touching on the principles. But right now without a singular definition like the Berlin Interpretation we can't set out hard rules.

I also did a quick scan of academic resources, as there's interest in AI-assisted procedural generation of Metroidvania maps, and there the "defintion" of what a Metroidvania is becomes a bit more important, though I've haven't found a good one that we can use. But it did point me to this video from the old 1up [1] where Jeremy Parish, Scott Sharkley, and Chris Kolher discuss the key aspects of the genre which we reasonable can include. --Masem (t) 17:43, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Instead of reverting all my changes, could you make surgical edits instead? Parts of this article are outdated and no longer reflect common knowledge. It's perpetuating the chicken and egg problem discussed earlier. What would it take for you to budge? An article from Polycom, IGN, Kotaku, etc? Sometimes they make questionable calls like referring to "The Messenger" as an MV. I'm done. You can continue gate-keeping this article. --HSukePup (talk) 19:53, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

If you're talking about newer aspects of Metrovanais, that would be additional text, not changes to the existing stuff. The old definitions of Metroidvanias haven't changed and those games still exist but certainly there could be new concepts that indie games and other titles have added, just as they have with roguelikes. That said, I've not seen good singular articles that point those out in depth and in broad terms of the genre. --Masem (t) 19:56, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Too bad, this subgenre is defined by two primary games that use these features. If I could coin the subgenre, it'd be something like: Interconnected 2D Platform. Pretty much, the characteristics are noted. KyuuA4 (Talk:キュウ) 10:18, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

References

History

I believe 'Zorro' for 8 bit computers (1984) fit the description. No large worlds due to limitations of the devices where it run, yet is a world made up of a series of rooms that require solving puzzles and revisiting previous ones to reach new screens, and mixes puzzle solving with platform arcade. Actually many games from 8 bit era may be seen as pre-metroidvanias because of their mechanics of collecting items through a series of screens (check 'Cauldron')

On trying to include the USENET post...

To the IP that is trying to include the USENET post:

1. USENET posts are user-generated content and thus not reliable, we can't use them.
2. On the basis of the claim that it may be the first documented use of "metroidvania", that's original research since its impossible from that alone to prove it is the first use of the term anywhere. We rely on secondary sources to provide us origins or first-uses as best they can research since we cannot do that research ourselves.
3. Where you are changing this is not where it is relevant. Let's assume that "metroidvania" first was used after Circle of the Moon came out, for all purposes. That doesn't change the fact that in its genre's current form today, SotH is considered the first key Castlevania game that has all the defining traits of the Metroidvania genre, even though the term "Metroidvania" would not be used for some years after the game was released. This article is not making the claim that the term "Metroidvania" derived specifically from the game SotH, so it doesn't matter if it came from Circle of the Moon or not; the term is a portmanteau of the series names Metroid and Castlevania, not of any specific name. Thus, while Circle of the Moon may be blessed to be the first game to be specifically called a Metroidvania doesn't make it the first Metroidvania. --Masem (t) 14:38, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

'Search action' game?

That term surely needs a source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.70.22.139 (talk) 11:12, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes it does; I've taken it out as I can't confirm anything via Google for it. --Masem (t) 12:35, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Never heard of 'Castleroid' in my long gaming life, either. If you have castleroids, see your doctor. LkeYHOBSTorItEwA (talk) 05:43, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

"Soulsvania" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Soulsvania has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 24 § Soulsvania until a consensus is reached. Utopes _{(talk / cont)} 20:36, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Continual thinning of the definition has made the term redundant

The primary addition to the action-adventure genre from Metroid was the gaining of new abilities to progress in a non-linear side-view environment. In watering down this definition over time the term "Metroidvania" is now structurally identical to the term "Action-Adventure game" and as such is no longer necessary.

Without the side-view or platformer stipulation, the original Zelda is a Metroidvania, and without the permanent power-ups stipulation, any action game that used keys are also now Metroidvania's, even non-linear action games which gated areas until the player had certain specific items were common place in the years leading up to Metroid, such as with games like Pyjamarama in 1984. Watering down both stipulations means that Resident Evil is also a Metroidvania, along with almost the entire classic survival horror genre. This term is now meaningless. 2A00:23CC:B481:6801:B4D2:2FF7:D8DA:DD2F (talk) 13:26, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any reliable sources to justify those claims? Masem (t) 13:47, 1 April 2024 (UTC)