Talk:Masala chai

Comment

Hi, I moved this page here from Chai as per discussion on the talk page. The consensus was that chai simply means tea and that the article is about masala chai, which is known as chai in western countries. Most people looking up chai will most likely be looking for / thinking of masala chai without realising, hence the redirect. See Talk:Chai for the discussion as well as other issues about the page. If anyone has objections, be bold. I made this change because there was no dissent on the talk page and nothing had been done about it in months. 152.91.9.219 (talk) 03:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, I think it is worth leaving the explanation that chai just means tea in the article, so that people understand why they've been redirected. That said, the opening paragraph could be restructured a little, starting off with something like "Masala chai, often simply called chai by western english speakers blah blah", and *then* going on to explain that chai just means tea. 152.91.9.219 (talk) 03:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The intro currently reads, "By itself, chai is merely the generic word for tea in much of the world, but for many English speakers outside those regions, particularly in the Western hemisphere, 'chai' automatically implies 'masala chai'." This is confusing English. Where exactly does chai mean tea and where does it mean masala chai? What regions does it refer to in "outside those regions"? "much of the world"? Is "much of the world" now a small region of the "whole world" allowing for significant populated areas to be "outside of much of the world"? 86.26.1.169 (talk) 17:31, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

How can this be true?

The article states, "Chai tea has about the same amount of caffeine as coffee". Is chai brewed for an hour? Because black tea has 1/3 to 1/2 the caffeine of coffee. Also, chai tea is redundant, because chai is tea — the entry even states chai being a generic word for tea in several languages. Sources to back up the caffeine statement? Kinkyturnip (talk) 00:46, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Why...

is the page named "Masala chai"? Why isn't it just "chai"?

And why is it spelled "chai" when it's pronounced like "cha" in Indian languages? I guess this is another poor transliteration like "Ramayana" or "tandoori"? AyanP (talk) 04:25, 10 November 2009 (UTC)Ayan

Actually I was just about to say that it is not pronounced like chai in Punjabi but as cha. However it is pronounced like chai in Hindi. Also words such as Ramayana are based on Sanskrit, not Hindi. Gizza^{Discuss ©} 00:14, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Spelled chai because it comes from Persian chay, which added the "y" at the end for some -yi grammatical suffix. Maybe it should be just cha...since that's one of the original pronunciations anyways. - M0rphzone (talk) 03:39, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated health claims

however pirates are real in the real world and this is some good chai.The entire "health effects" section is filled with unsubstantiated, and highly implausible, health claims. It begins with the premise that both types of tea (black and green) provide unspecified "benefits" to health. It then launches into a laundry list of the supposed health benefits of tea, including preventing cancer, curing kidney disease, etc. The only "sources" for these links are to commercial websites that sell promote the various "supplements" being discussed. For example, this section extols the benefits of "Theanine [sic]," with the only citation to a commercial website that sells theanine supplements. It also preaches the supposed benefits of ginger, with the only citation to a commercial website that sells -- you guessed it -- ginger. This entire section should simply be deleted. It provides no useful information and is prone to misleading people. Jacobsor (talk) 06:16, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

I completely agree, and I just deleted the section. The quality of this material was extremely low. There is already a page on Health effects of tea, and I think that is a better place for health information pertaining to tea. However, I'd like to point out that that page needs some improvement as well (although it currently has a lot of good citations, unlike this section). There may be a role for a section on health effects of chai--especially because a number of the spices used in chai are well-established to have medicinal effects or benefits for health. However, it's very important to rely on reliable sources for such information--and also to make sure the information is directly relevant to chai, not just information about tea or spices combined on this page--that could also get into problems as being original research. Cazort (talk) 19:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved Mike Cline (talk) 14:43, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

---

Masala chai → Chai tea – While I realize that this title could be hilarious for those bilingual Hindi/English readers (masala means "spiced", chai means "tea" in Hindi), this is the English Wikipedia and we should use the common English title, which is chai tea by far. Scholar: "Masala chai" 215 - "chai tea" 1,460 - Books: "masala chai" -wikipedia 2,210 - "chai tea" -wikipedia 11,100 - Google: "masala chai" -wikipedia 659,000 results - "chai tea" -wikipedia 4,360,000 results. Considering that "masala chai" will also include Hindi results, whereas "chai tea" results (in quotes) are uniquely English, the results are overwhelming. Although "chai" itself is probably a better location, this term caused genuine confusion before, and "chai tea" is a far less ambiguous term. In English, this drink is called chai tea, and anyone who pretends to be confused about the same word from two languages being used together to create a unique context, probably also thinks drinking maté is a murder confession, or that a hot dog should be shaved to be made more comfortable. We can continue to think people are silly for using words in this way, we can inform them how silly they are, but we cannot continue to deny the reality. We have a new loanword that does not mean exactly what it did in the original language. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 21:26, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

• Comment - Readings such as [She considers herself a “chai (tea) addict”] need taking out of above searches. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:07, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

• Question. Is there any other type of chai? The dis page lists many other uses of the word, but none others are tea, so how about Chai (tea)? Apteva (talk) 02:20, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

@Apteva, the disambiguation page Chai is wrong, it should list Chai as Indian English (and modern Indian English texts) for sweet milk tea as served on trains by chai-wallahs carrying urns down the aisles throughout India. Masala chai is, principally in Southern India and again in Indian English sources, a completely separate drink. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:27, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose - per WP:RETAIN and WP:WORLDVIEW as much as sources, which appear 50/50 on closer examination. I'm not sure if this article is using Indian English or British English, but either way Indian sources totally and British sources strongly support masala chai (as Hindi, Bengali, Urdu). In ictu oculi (talk) 02:27, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:ENGVAR. "Chai tea" (yes, it sounds silly) appears to be an Americanism not appropriate for the topic. —  AjaxSmack  04:05, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose - WP:WORLDVIEW. And the links seen for 'chai tea' are overwhelmingly commercial, visibly dominated by US marketing speak. Imc (talk) 12:37, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose: What non-South Asians call as "chai tea" isnt basically limited to the original concept of "masala chai". They themselves look unclear of what kinda tea should be called "chai tea". The "Outside India" section of this article gives that impression to me. I suppose any non-black tea is being called as "chai tea". Hence it isnt logical to rename this article. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 17:28, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Related issue

Separate (but obviously related) to above RM, article appears to be using British English, however given the subject depending on how this RM concludes, I would propose adding an INDIAN ENGLISH tag at the talk header. Or not, the article doesn't have to have an English variety tag. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:27, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Tautology

I'm actually cringing writing this based on how much debate has gone on about the masala chai/"chai tea" thing already, but hey... might as well throw my own semantic two cents in. I'm making a minor edit where "chai tea" is described as a tautology -- while correct, the wording is somewhat oblique. A grammatical tautology is much simpler than a rhetorical one -- the point here isn't that "all masala chai is tea" [which is what the article says], the point is the phrase "chai tea" literally translates as "tea tea".

Oh heck, while I'm at it, weighing in on the wider debate: In my opinion, the redundancy in "chai tea" reinforces a reason this distinction should be preserved (and supporting the decision a couple segments above to NOT change the page to "Chai tea"): it is of course acceptable (and established) in English to refer to a spiced tea of this type simply as "chai", however it is worth maintaining that this WAS a sort of translation error (whenever it originally happened). Instead of popularizing "masala tea" (i.e. mixed-spice tea), we popularized "chai tea" (i.e. tea tea). We have a tendency in English to point out this sort of thing in other languages (see: Engrish.com), but not recognize when we've done something similar. The article isn't asking anyone to change how they refer to "chai", it is simply laying out the connection between the generic "chai tea" and the actual parent beverage, masala chai/cha. 99.244.230.178 (talk) 19:18, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm also chiming in on the chai debate. Not the title of the article debate, but the "if the article should say calling spiced tea chai is incorrect" debate. There is not a single definition in the English dictionaries I checked that say the word chai refers to all tea, and there are no native English speakers that use the word chai to refer to types of tea other than tea spiced in this manner. In addition, you will not be able to find any tea other than spiced tea with English packaging that contains the word Chai. It is unambiguous that chai refers ONLY to spiced tea in the English language. This is the English Wikipedia. Many, many other word in the English language have definitions that are different than their origin words in other languages, and chai is no different. Should we edit the Tea page to say that it can refer to any bitter herb because the original Chinese word meant that? Of course not, in English tea means tea. And in English chai means chai. It is ridiculous that this page is allowed to have such blatantly incorrect claims on it. If your native language is something other than English, you shouldn't even have a say in this discussion. Among native English speakers, the decision would be unanimous that chai means spiced tea and that chai never refers to plain black tea. Even if countries other than the US require it to be completely called Masala Chai, they would never user Chai to refer to plain black tea. Rhollis7 (talk) 03:14, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Chai vs Masala chai

Must of the article is about Chai (tea with milk as in the Indian subcontinent), and not about Masala chai (literally spiced tea).

Etymology and terminology: not about Masala chai

Traditional masala chai: not about Masala chai

The two are distinct.

Malaiya (talk) 02:45, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

History of chai masala?

The current edit contains the statement, "The practice of adding spices to tea became popular in India immediately after World War II as a way of marketing low-grade tea leaves in a way that made them more palatable and soon the practice spread to all of Southeast Asia." I find this extremely doubtful; can anyone provide references for this? There are numerous Google mentions of a 5000-year-old Ayurvedic tradition; even if this is dismissed as mere legend, the most recent plausible-sounding origin is based on the premise that tea wasn't introduced to India until the British colonial period, when a market was needed/created to dump off low-grade leaves from the China trade. Wombat1138 (talk) 17:38, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Tea/Chai leaves were only used for medicinal purposes in ancient Indian times. It did not become a drink until the modern historical period. Gizza^{Discuss ©} 00:17, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Tea/Chai was unknown in India before it was introduced by the British. I had heard it from elders that the English used to promote it by offering it free to the public (I heard that in 1950s).

In 1950s and 1960s, proper tea, as served in proper restaurants, first class train compartments and railway dining rooms, was the british tea, with milk and sugar added later. Housewives made pre-mixed tea, which eventually became respectable.

In the 1955 classic film Shri 420, the hero (Raj Kapoor) brings the heroine (Nargis) to a road-side tea stall. The tea is made in a samovar, suggesting what was brewed did not include milk. See Raj Kapoor Proposes To Nargis On Street - Shree 420 Most Viewed Scenes.

I don't remember encountering masala chai during childhood. Boiled extracts of herbs (क्वाथ) was common in ancient India, but that did not involve tea. I think western travellers discovered masala chai in Nepal if I remember right.

Malaiya (talk) 02:52, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

More: I have found references to Masala Chai in two 1996 publications (Flavors of India: Vegetarian Indian Cuisine By Shanta Nimbark Sacharoff, Vegetarian Times Sep 1996 ). Masala Chai was perhaps discovered a few years before that time.

A New York times article of 1999 refers to Masala Chai (SIPS; Evoking India, Hot and Cold By ELAINE LOUIEJAN. 13, 1999)being served in New York City. Malaiya (talk) 23:20, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

British promotion of Tea in India in early 1900s is discussed here: Curry: A Tale of Cooks and Conquerors, Lizzie Collingham, Oxford University Press, Feb 6, 2006 p. 187-197. Apparently, what I was told in 1950s was right.Malaiya (talk) 02:25, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

Requested merge 29 May 2018

Karha (spices) → Masala chai – The merger was suggested by Ost316 (See this edit).

Support The stub consists of two sentences. What Karha is can be dealt in the Masala chai article. --Maumivi (talk) 13:16, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

  Y Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 21:09, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 22 June 2023

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. After much-extended time for discussion, there is no consensus for a move at this time. BD2412 T 23:21, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

• Masala chai → Chai
• Chai → Chai (disambiguation)

– 1. Move Masala Chai to Chai: The current article titled "Masala Chai" inaccurately represents the prevalent usage and cultural context of chai in India. Chai is the commonly recognized term for the iconic Indian beverage enjoyed by millions of people across the country. The phrase "Masala Chai" is limited primarily to non-Indian communities. By moving the content of Masala Chai to the page titled "Chai," we align with the language and cultural practices of the majority of chai consumers in India. This change will provide an accurate representation of the drink and ensure that the page reflects the terminology most widely used and recognized within its cultural context.

2. Move Chai to Chai_(disambiguation): The current article titled "Chai" serves as a disambiguation page, which does not accurately reflect the prominence and cultural significance of the chai beverage in India. Chai, as mentioned earlier, is the preferred and commonly used term for the Indian drink. By moving the disambiguation content to the page titled "Chai_(disambiguation)," we maintain a comprehensive guide for readers seeking information about various uses and meanings of the term "Chai." This change will ensure that the chai beverage, which holds immense cultural and historical significance, occupies the primary position on Wikipedia, reflecting its importance and widespread usage within Indian culture.

I kindly request the Wikipedia community to consider this change in line with the principles of accuracy, cultural relevance, and respect for the preferences of the majority of chai consumers in India. thegodofbigthings (talk) 17:19, 22 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. SilverLocust (talk) 07:31, 1 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. :3 F4U (they/it) 07:37, 11 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 23:27, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Support. I have no doubts that the ubiquitous meaning "tea" is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, as all other meanings listed under Chai are local names or niche terms or acronyms. The term "chai" is also used more widely, it now denotes any oriental-style tea, not just "masala chai", which essentially means "chai with spices" and should just be mentioned in the broader "Chai" article. A move, however, will necessitate slight reworking of the current article as regards the masala component. — kashmīrī ^TALK 18:24, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Support: I concur with this view. Additionally, according to WP:DETERMINEPRIMARY, I took a look at the outgoing traffic from the disambiguation page, and it appears as though most of traffic is to the Masala Chai page (https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Chai).

Whitestar12 (talk) 19:16, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

I am happy to reword the article to reflect the name change. Should this be done before or after the page move? thegodofbigthings (talk) 17:31, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

@Thegodofbigthings After. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 18:11, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

• Support. The term for tea is the clear primary topic, but the article will need a bit of tweaking per Kashmiri. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:33, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose: this was already discussed when the article title was changed to Masala Chai. In India, chai can simply mean tea, or black tea with milk. There is already a page for tea and a redirect from chai to tea. This page is for the specific blend of tea. Oxenfording (talk) 20:56, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

That's the point. The page needs changing to broaden the subject matter. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:52, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

In English, though – and this is English Wikipedia – chai does not simply mean "tea". — kashmīrī ^TALK 07:41, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose but suggest relisting. This proposal and much of the discussion above seems to assume that the term chai in English applies only to the beverages of India, but that doesn't seem to be the case. We need to clarify the proposed scope of this article. If it is all beverages known as chai then that may be a suitable article title for it, but if it is restricted to beverages of India then it's probably not. Andrewa (talk) 18:45, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support - Chai has a clear WP:PRIMARY topic, that being the Indian beverage. A general glance at google search [1] and news [2] both clearly use Chai almost exclusively to describe Indian teas.
  Further, the page already covers many aspects of chai in general and the scope of the page is definitely more than just Masala Chai. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 13:09, 30 June 2023 (UTC)
• Support This is English Wikipedia. When someone types "chai" rather than tea, we send them to the beverage called chai in the West, not assume they are looking for tea in general. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:34, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CONCISE, and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Rreagan007 (talk) 23:39, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose chai means tea generally, whereas this article is about a specific type of tea. However, a merge may be appropriate. SportingFlyer T·C 14:01, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

  In the vernacular context, yes, chai=tea; However, wrt English usage Chai is overwhelmingly used to denote the tea commonly made across the Indian subcontinent. Masala chai is a small subset of that, and the article scope already includes other teas. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 14:40, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

  A merge of what? — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:50, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Chai is a common term used for “tea” in more than one country. It is not unique to India, and its etomology is not from India, but the far east. For example: https://thearabiancuisine.com/faq/is-chai-a-turkish-word#:~:text=Turkish%20tea%20is%20called%20“çay”%20%28pronounced%20chai%29%20in,and%20“chai”%20in%20Central%20Asian%20languages%20and%20Persian. The current title is far more consistent with WP:AT policy than Chai would be. Mike Cline (talk) 13:15, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. Chai is the common term for "tea" in many countries. Indeed, in languages such as Russian, "chai" actually means tea. The masala chai variant certainly isn't the only one.  — Amakuru (talk) 19:36, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject India has been notified of this discussion. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 23:26, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Food and drink has been notified of this discussion. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 23:26, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Boldly relisting for the 3rd and final time. Let’s form consensus here. - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 23:27, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

• The proposed move will change the nominal scope of the article (though some argue above that the scope already differs from the current title). Therefore, I oppose a move without clarification of what the intended scope is. Is it only the spiced masala version sometimes called "chai tea" in the USA?[3] Is it Indian tea in general?[4] Is it all Asian-style teas? (like kahwa or doodh pati chai?) Depending on the answer, a title like Indian tea or South Asian tea might be in order instead. NB the existence of Indian tea culture where Indian tea currently redirects. —  AjaxSmack  03:38, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose many tea houses in English speaking regions are called "chai" something, without favouring this particular tea in their menus, so making "chai" branding for tea in English -- 67.70.25.80 (talk) 23:35, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose: You've established that this article's best title would be Chai, but not that Chai's primary topic is this article. Wikipedia has a global scope, and being the primary topic within India is not enough. jlwoodwa (talk) 05:07, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.