Talk:Italian ice

WPFood assessment

Mid class start, Italian is a classic summertime dessert in many countries.

This article needs attention in the areas of:

• It needs expansion.
• Citations from reliable sources.
• it reads like an advertisement.

--Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 07:28, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

pronunciation

How is "granite" (one of the names that it's stated this product is known by) pronounced? I assume it's pronounced according to Italian phonetics, not English (i. e. it's not pronounced like the rock, but I'm not sure so I don't want to edit. Izzycat 19:07, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I've heard it pronounced on Food Network by Giada De Laurentiis (Everyday Italian) as "grah-NEE-ta." --Meg 16:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

This is right, obviously this is the singular word granita. For the plural word.. just use an "e" like in "edit". --Trifi 12:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Italian ice = granita?

I don't think this is very exact.. granità is more a water based product, while ice cream in other parts of italy (and in sicily, too) is made mostly on milk basis. I am not sure, what an English speaking person understand when hearing "Italian ice", but I would not think of granita or a water-based ice. --Trifi 12:28, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

to illustrate this difference: look at these pictures..gelato (ice cream):[1] and granita: [2], [3] and [4] --Trifi 12:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

At least in the United States, "Italian Ice" is indeed used to refer to the water-based dessert. If somebody ordered an Italian ice and were given an ice cream or gelato, they would send it back. Your pictures of granita look just like "Italian ice" to me. —Chowbok 03:27, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

The picture shown on the Article page doesn't resemble granita though, it looks more like ice cream.--84.74.167.74 16:29, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't ice cream. It was water-based Italina ice. Trust me, I ate some after I took the picture, and I grew up eating Italian ice/granita on frequent trips to Brooklyn.

Do feel free to replace the picture with a better one if you like. —Chowbok 18:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

If this is Italian ice, we have to split the article again, because Granità is much different in consistency. It's much more liquid. --Trifi 08:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I just had some Italian ice today. It looked just like the pix in the article. It was a product of the Philadelphia Ice Co. I had the chocoloate mousse. then a little late i had coffee flavor. Being lactose intolerant it was just what i needed. Also it was great b/c it doesn't melt fast like ice cream. it was a lot better than a snow cone. it is great stuff. Take Care! --Will^(talk) 02:01, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

So we can say, that this is not the sicilian dessert called Granita. But how is Italian ice normaly called? Only Italian ice but also granita (I hope not, because it would complicate the neccessary changes.) --Trifi 16:00, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Italian Ice should be a "Sorbetto" --St. Alex (talk) 09:03, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Dessert?

In the Philadelphia area, water ice stands usually have lines in the afternoons, as kids get off school, people get back from a day at the pool, or people just get in the mood. I guess some people might eat it after dinner, but I'd really say it's more of a "snack" than a "desert," no? Passdoubt | Talk 17:11, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Well in the same way Ice Cream is a dessert but people often, especially in the summer time, eat Ice Cream on its own. 24.190.34.219 (talk) 22:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Water ice: not quite the same thing

Although water ice is similar in some ways to Italian ice, it's not the same thing. The fact that you can actually find places selling italian ice next to a Ritas in Philly and that thay are selling two different things is evidence.

Further, one would think when mentioning water ice and 'a popular place to get it' -- HELLO??? Rita's??? The Philly-ubiquitous water-ice stands! There's one on South Street and damned near every other street, usually three per suburbs, etc.

Anyway, Water Ice redirects to this article and it shouldn't because Philly-style water ice is not italian ice, it's just a relative.67.169.63.116 15:18, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I tried to re-work the water ice section, but I think water ice should have its own page. In the Philly/South Jersey area it is a very popular frozen treat, in my town alone (less than 3 square miles) there are three water ice shops (with two within a block of the city limit). Simply put, it's not just a regional word like hoagie, water ice just is not the same thing as italian ice. Aufs klo 05:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't buy it. I've been eating water ice / Italian ice my whole life. As with anything else, different makers have different variations on the recipe, but that doesn't mean there's a fundamental difference between water ice and Italian ice. My sense is that, in Philly, the more local-focused places call it "water ice," and the places that want to appeal to tourists and transplants who aren't familiar with the term call it "Italian ice."

I mean, one could also argue that a "hoagie" is not the same thing as a "sub," in that subs are often subjected to bizarre rituals like "toasting," but regional or subcultural variations do not mean we're talking about consistently different products.

As for "gelati," does anyone else besides Rita's use that blatant misnomer?

Anyone who is from Philadelphia knows that there is a difference, and no one else makes it like PHiladelphia. THey are related, but they are made differentely, and it is like the difference between a hoagie and a sub. It is hard to explain and prove the difference, but there is one —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.78.116.3 (talk) 19:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know whether water ice is different from italian ice, but having a section under "Similiar foods" that then claims water ice is another name from italian ice is nonsensical: either it is the same thing or it is not. I've reverted the last edit, removing this section. If we ever split water ice from italian ice, they need to be seperate pages, and we need to explain how they are different. --Wingedsubmariner (talk) 04:21, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I have lived in Philly and Ohio. I work at Rita's. Rita's officially refers to its product as both Italian Ice and Water Ice. Look at the Rita's website for example: under products it lists "Italian Ice", and yet at the very bottom of the page it displays the official name of the company: "Rita's Water Ice Franchise Company, LLC". They are the same. --Secundus Zephyrus 06:45, 1 July 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Secundus Zephyrus (talk • contribs)

I've been to Rita's in Philly had a water ice, but I've also had the same exact type product served the same exact way and called an italian ice in Brooklyn. They're essentially the same.24.190.34.219 (talk) 22:16, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I lived in South Philadelphia all my life. Water Ice is different than Italian Ice. The key difference is that water ice is slushy and watery not like Italian Ice which is firmer and can be scooped with and an ice cream scooper. The South Philly places that are good examples of water ice are Pop's, Italiano's, and John's. These are the places most South Philadelphians go for water ice. In my opinion, most Philadelphians who grew up with water ice would not consider Rita's a prime example of Philadelphia water ice. Rita's is firmer and much more like Italian Ice than water ice. It's only been recently that true Philadelphia water ice estblishments have been calling their product water ice/Italian Ice, and that's probably because Rita's began marketing their product that way. But if you want to know what real Philadelphia water ice is like, just go to John's water ice web page, http://johnswaterice.com/. Real Philadelphia water ice and Italian Ice don't even look alike. On John's home page there is a video which will show them scooping the water ice into containers. Look at that then compare it with to the picture of Italian Ice that they used for this page or whatever you know to be Italian Ice and you will clearly see the differec. Also, understand that John's is what typical Philadelphia water ice looks like. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fattyjoe (talk • contribs) 10:17, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

That seems to be more a difference of quality than type. You can get exactly what you describe as "water ice" and what is shown on the John's website in Italian food stores and in some cases pizzerias throughout Brooklyn and they call it Italian ice. Philly isn't the only place in the world that sells Italian Ices/Water Ice. Someone should see if they can find information about this distinction on a more national/global scale. If Philly is the only place making this distinction, but everyone else is calling both qualities by one name, we should go by the majority. I think many people see the retail "Italian Ices" in supermarkets, which are very very poor quality, and immediately think those are representative of all Italian Ice. Poor quality Italian Ice can be very hard, whereas higher grade tends to be much softer and scoop-able. 24.190.34.219 (talk) 14:55, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying about quality. However it is clear from what you saw from John's that it's distinctively different than the picture used on this page to illustrate Italian Ice. The picture that is used on this page to illustrate Italian Ice clearly would not classify as Philadelphia Water Ice. Because of it's texture, Philadelphia Water Ice can not be scooped with an ice cream scooper. Italian Ice can. Here is a website with pictures of Italian Ice from Brooklyn's Italian Ice eateries. None of the Italian Ices in the pictures would classify as Philadelphia Water Ice because it is clear from the photos that they are too firm. http://newyork.seriouseats.com/2009/07/nyc-italian-ices-desserts-queens-brooklyn-manhattan.html You can see in these pictures, as well as the picture used on this page to illustrate Italian Ice, that an ice cream scooper was used for these Italian Ice because you can see that Italian Ice's have a rounded ice cream shape made from an ice cream scooper. Compare any of these pictures of Brooklyn's Italian Ices with the video from John's above and you can see that the textures are clearly different. John's water ice can not be scooped with an ice cream scooper and no authentic Philadelphia Water Ice can. Philadelphia Water Ice is much too soft and smooth to use a ice cream scooper. Notice the girl in John's video tapping the cup of water ice on the table so the water ice can fall to the bottom of the cup. Italian Ice is too firm to do this. You can see in the Brooklyn photos that some of the Italian Ice is actually hanging over the cup and that in all the pictures the Italian Ice actually holds a rounded shape from the ice cream scooper which indicates how firm the Italian Ice is. Water Ice can not hold an ice cream quality shape like Italian Ice because of the water ice's soft texture. Water Ice can be a filled above the edge of the cup but it can not be piled high at the edge like Italian Ice because it will spill over or run over. Italian Ice does not spill over because it is much firmer. Unlike water ice, Italian ice is packed in like ice cream in scoops. You can see from the Italian Ice photos, especially the one on this page, the Italian Ice took the round shape of the ice cream scooper. Unlike Italian Ice, Water Ice is filled into the cup with a large spoon and it has to be scraped off at the edges. I've been to Brooklyn many times and had their Italian Ice and what I had was typical of the pictures of the Brooklyn Italian Ice. You can clearly see from John's video that it is not possible for the water ice to hang over the edge of the cup. Water Ice is just too soft for this and it melts down quickly. It could never hold it's shape for long. When you hold a cup of water ice you can swish it around from side to side in the cup. You cannot do that with Italian Ice, at least not right away. You can do this with Philadelphia Water Ice as soon as it is served. You can also see from the pictures of the Brooklyn Italian Ice that some of the Italian Ices are double dipped and they hold the ball shape of the ice cream scooper. If you look at the video of John's you can clearly see that this is impossible to do with water ice. Italian Ice, although it can be soft, is still much firmer than Philadelphia water ice. You can see in John's video how they are mashing down the water ice to get it to the correct texture because texture is very essential to Philadelphia Water Ice. Just look at the video and you will catch them mashing down the water ice. All authentic Philadelpia Water Ice establishments do this to their water ice. Based on the texture of Italian Ice you can see that this process is not used when making Italian Ice. Also, Italian Ice is much colder than Philadelphia Water Ice, Hence that's why Philadelphia Water Ice is loose as opposed to firm Italian Ice and therefore it melts much quicker. Philadelphia water ice is mainly a local thing and was established in South Philadelphia more than seventy five years ago where I grew up. Native South Philadelphians have never used the term Italian Ice. It's a newer and recent term used for marketing reasons. Italian Ice is not a local product and can be found in Chicago, LA, San Francisco, Houston, Miami, NY, Hartford, and hundreds of other places as well as Philadelphia. Yes Philadelphia too has Italian Ice establishment mostly in North Philadelphia. Because Italian Ice is not a local treat, Philadelphians know what Italian Ice tastes and looks like as well as traditional Water ice. Water Ice is a Philadelphia local food and Philadelphians do not call their water ice Italian Ice simply because it's not Italian Ice. If someone says that Rita's is just like the Italian Ice they have from home therefore Italian Ice and Philadelphia Water Ice are the same, then someone can also say that they have a place that makes authentic Philadelphia cheese steaks just like Quizno's authentic Philadelphia cheese steaks, therefore their cheese steaks from their home town must be the same as an authentic Philadelphia cheese steak from Philadelphia. If anyone wants to experience a true authentic Philadelphia Water Ice they are not going to know it by going to some franchise that in my opinion most Philadelphia locals wouldn't go to. If someone wants to talk about Philadelphia water ice they must first go to a local mom and pop Philadelphia Water Ice stand like John's, Pop's, Italiano's, or Jims, which between the four I mentioned have about three hundred years of experience making water ice. After they experience an authentic Philadelphia Water Ice then they will be able to distinguish the difference between an authentic Philadelphia Water Ice from Italian Ice. How can someone not from the Philadelphia area know what authentic Philadelphia water ice tastes like if they never went to a place where the locals go? Does anyone on here know a Philadelphia Water Ice place other than the Rita's franchise because if Rita's is all you know, in my opinion you have never had a chance to taste an authentic Philadelphia Water Ice and unfortunately you would not know what one tastes like. When you finally get to Philly, go to South Philly, south of Washington Avenue, and ask a local where to go for a water ice. Then taste it and get on here and write an opinion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fattyjoe (talk • contribs) 03:07, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

The term "water ice" does not make any sense, you might as well just call it ice. and it should actually be nowhere. How can water and ice ever be one term, they are 2 different physical states of water. You can clearly improve this article by removing all references to "water ice". Mapsfly (talk) 15:12, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Whether or not you think the term "makes sense" is immaterial. A meaningful number of people call the frozen treat "water ice", as cited in reliable sources. We cannot improve an article by removing factual, relevant information. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:14, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

User:Mapsfly's suggestion that water and ice are different states of water is quite wrong. Ice and liquid (and vapour) are physical states of water. Water is not a physical state of itself. Water is a specific chemical compound, regardless of which physical state it is in. But moving on from there, the term water ice is in common usage to refer to a type of frozen confection (as used here), irrespective of whether some individuals consider the term counter-intuitive.--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:41, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

wrong, liquid water is a state of water, take a seat pal: http://ww2010.atmos.uiuc.edu/(Gh)/guides/mtr/cld/dvlp/wtr.rxml — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mapsfly (talk • contribs) 22:51, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

slush

Last time I checked, "slush" was a different than water ice, even in New England.

Poor introduction

It seems like the person who wrote the opening paragraphs to this article wrote specifically with the method of making it in mind. Descriptions of how italian ice "should" be (presumably in contrast to the variable ways it can end up) are offered up before even establishing what Italian ice exactly is. Perhaps this could be changed by someone who knows better than I do how to best describe it. Abbenm 02:26, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Explicit Image Removed

I removed an explicit image on the top right of the page.

I agree with what Abbenm said about the into.

RRM MBA 20:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge with Sorbet

Shouldn't this article be a subset of Sorbet? Even the current language on this page states that it's a form of sorbet. Certainly, some American sorbets contain dairy (unlike Italian Ice), but not all do. Jkatzen (talk) 14:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree to do such a thing

GuthxMastr7 20:09, 27 January 2008 (UTC) absolutly not.

the texture are two different things its like saying mud is the same as china ware —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.175.168.8 (talk) 08:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. This should not be merged. They are generally quite different.—Chowbok ☠ 06:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

NO, Italian ice is icier, and sorbet is smooth and melts differently. Italian ice melts to a watery liquid, and sorbet melts to a sticky, thicker juice. -signature: Janers

In January, 2008, Dennis Moore from "Little Jimmy's Italian Ice" officially suggested to the United States Trademark Offices that the term "italian ice" finally have its own classification code in the Trademark coding. In February 2008, a code was enstated with the United States Trademark Offices giving italian ice an official code of "International Class 030: Italian ice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bahstahd (talk • contribs) 13:58, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

References

Thent he only difference between Italian ice and sorbet is the presence of stabilizers in sorbet? Sorbet usually contains no dairy, as opposed to sherbert. What is the difference between sorbet and Italian ice? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.52.7.23 (talk) 21:51, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorbet often includes alcohol, which makes it significantly colder (to freeze the alcohol) and smoother (lacking ice crystals). Italian ice never does. Sorbet is (typically) fruit puree and sweeteners, with or without alcohol. Italian ice often uses fruit juices, but may use spices, coffee, tea, chocolate, cocoa, "confections", small amounts of alcohol as flavoring and/or natural or artificial food flavoring (except for those having a fruit or fruit-like flavor).

More to the point, the definition of "sorbet" is kind of open and loose, whereas, in the U.S. at least, "Italian ice" (a.k.a. "water ice") has a specific, limiting definition. - SummerPhD (talk) 23:33, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Gelato

The paragraph on Gelato had been reduced to stating that the word was the Italian for ice cream. I've replaced it with a link to the Gelato article. Rojomoke (talk) 12:48, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

perfect^ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.159.169.217 (talk) 03:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Cookie dough italian ice?

I grew up in Philadelphia and have been eating water ice for most of my life. Not one place I've ever been to offered cookie dough water ice. They are usually fruit flavors, chocolate, vanilla, or root beer. Naugahyde (talk) 15:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I've had cookie dough and some other exotic flavored italian ices in Brooklyn.24.190.34.219 (talk) 22:02, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Contradiction

First paragraph says water ice is just another name for the Italian ice, whereas the 'similar foods' section claims these are two different desserts. --Eleassar ^{my talk} 07:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

most popular flavors

I removed the most popular flavors sentence. I can't find the info in the link, and even if i could, Little Jimmies is not an authority on the most sold flavors. They may be the most sold flavors for him, but not the Philadelphia area, or any other area for that matter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.80.176.22 (talk) 00:10, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Little Jimmies seems to be touting themselves on Wikipedia. I am removing all mention of them as they are a) not notable b) not an authoritative source on flavors/sales and c) not an important detail in the submission of the term (nor is their involvement verifiable). - SummerPhD (talk) 15:53, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The text I removed was restored without comment and this section of the Talk page was removed without comment by an anonymous editor. The IP address links to Bedminster, NJ (just down the road from Elizabeth, NJ...). I have reverted both edits and warned the anonymous editor. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

More socks in favor of Little Jimmies. Sad. Looks like we might need to block edits by unconfirmed editors. - SummerPhD (talk) 01:31, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

More socks in favor of Ritas. Reprehensible.. Looks like a Wikipedia editor is on the payroll for Ritas might need to block this editor. - EditorCollusion (User talk:EditorCollusion) 05:31, 28 October 2009 (UTC) — EditorCollusion (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

User:EditorCollusion is one edit away from being blocked as a spam account. Should any of EditorCollusion's other accounts (PhillyWaterIce, Youknowhatimsayin, Claustrophobic2010, etc.), IP addresses (98.235.198.176, 69.125.36.243, 75.220.9.209, etc.) or new IPs/accounts show up again2, I'll make it a sock case, to permanently block the accounts and use range blocks to catch the others. Goodbye. - SummerPhD (talk) 07:48, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Editor Conflict of Interest

The editor SummerPhd is constantly touting Rita's Italian Ice unfairly and constantly blocking any factual change I make to the pages for water ice and Italian ice.

I did not think that Wikipedia editors were allowed to have a relationship between editor and a corporate business.

As a small company in NJ, I believe this is unfair that a Rita's Italian Ice can get mentioned in articles such as Italian ice and water ice and even have their own page- but we as a small company get blocked from doing the same (our Wikipedia page was deleted for Little Jimmy's even though it was exactly similar to Rita's Italian Ice, Coke, Pepsi, etc.) without the use of a lobbyist/editor SummerPhd getting mentions in of our business.

Thank you for contacting us regarding the dispute you encountered while editing.

Wikipedia is a collaborative encyclopedia (as explained at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Introduction>), and so anyone may edit its articles. Its policy, nonetheless, is that articles must be written from a Neutral Point of View (including editors), representing all majority and significant-minority views fairly and without bias, as is discussed extensively at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NPOV>.

However, since article content is not controlled by a central authority, we do not resolve editing disputes via email. Instead, please follow the steps outlined at <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution>. These steps are designed to help you work with other editors and to draw upon the help of the wider community.

Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia.

Yours sincerely, Robert Johnson —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.36.243 (talk) 02:50, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Little Jimmy's is not notable. As such, your page was deleted. Your repeated spamming of this and other articles under various user names is in violation of several of our policies (see: Wikipedia:Conflict of interest, Wikipedia:Spam, WP:SOCK, etc.). If you believe another article is not notable, feel free to address your concerns in that article. If you believe my edits are in violation of Wikipedia's conflict of interest policies, please see Wikipedia:Conflict of interest for assistance in addressing your concerns. Thank you. - SummerPhD (talk) 05:01, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The editor adding the Little Jimmy's claims has been at this for over three years, editing as:

• 98.235.198.176 Warnings reached Spam4
• 69.125.42.207 Warned for spamming
• 69.125.36.243 Warned for spamming and COI
• 75.220.9.209 Warned for talk page violations
• Claustrophobic2010 Warned for spamming
• EditorCollusion Warned for spamming and personal attacks
• Youknowhatimsayin Warned for spamming
• PhillyWaterIce Warned for spamming
• Winner4321 Warned for spamming
• 68.45.42.40 Warned for spamming
• Credibility2010 Warned for spamming

On 29 August 2009, as 69.125.36.243, he admitted to a clear conflict of interest on this edit. Thanks for your concern. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:26, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

On 20 February 2010, as SummerPhD, this Conflicted of Interest Editor SummerPhd admitted to a clear conflict of interest on this edit. When this editor was called out to her conflict of interest she edited her description and changed it Thanks for your concern. - PhillyWaterIce (talk) 11:26, 24 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.36.243 (talk)

Okay, how about nobody connected with Little Jimmy's Italian Ice, Rita's Italian Ice, or any other Italian Ice company edit this article? Fair enough?—Chowbok ☠ 17:03, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

That would be great. Other than having purchased Italian ice from various places over the years and editing this article, I have no connection with any company. Both of the edits given as examples of my supposed COI are me reverting vandalism by the Little Jimmie's spammer. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:30, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough Chowbok- if Rita's Lobbyist Editor from Philadelphia SummerPhd stops touting Rita's (see her current version) I will stop as well.—PhillyWaterIce ☠ 19:53, 25 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.45.42.40 (talk)

I have not been "touting Rita's", as my [City Paper article on only edit] to Rita's Water Ice demonstrates. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:13, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Chowbok- Rita's Lobbyist Editor from Philadelphia, SummerPhd, - her editor status needs to be revoked- she still persists to tout Rita's (the water ice stuff) and is ignoring your directive where you said no references anymore (see her current version) I can not live up to my end of the agreement if SummerPhd cannot. PhillyWaterIce ☠ 21:01, 25 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.45.42.40 (talk)

That "directive" was not a directive. The edit removed the reflist because there weren't any references left at that point. Yes, I restored the reference explaining why the disamb at Water ice points here. All Wikipedia articles need sources/references. I have agreed to continue, as I always have, not to "tout" any particular company. - SummerPhD (talk) 04:26, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

That's a bit disingenuous. The reference itself is fairly promotional. I don't see why what it's called in Philadelphia is significant, and we don't need a reference to justify a redirect. I've removed it.—Chowbok ☠ 17:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't care if the source is there or not. I do, however, think the alternate name "water ice" should be there. First, the name "water ice" seems to predate "Italian ice".[5] Most articles include alternate names as part of their leads and I see no reason for an exception here. The reasoning is fairly simple. Clicking a link reading "water ice" in an article and ending up at an article with a different name is confusing. This will happen to readers arriving here from several articles: Philadelphia#Cuisine, Pennsylvania#Food, Cuisine_of_the_Northeastern_United_States#New_Jersey, Cuisine_of_New_Jersey and others. Anyone searching for Water Ice currently ends up here (actually, I'm going to change that to a redirect to the disamb Italian ice right after this edit.

Why did I use that source? Simple. It's what I found. Yes, there are lots of websites for lots of different companies that call it "water ice" and some even explain that it's another name for "Italian ice". I didn't want to link to a company's page, so they were out. I searched for other sources that explained (rather than just used) the name and this article was the only one I found. I am fine with the idea of restoring the information to the article without a source as I don't see it as being disputed. Thoughts? - SummerPhD (talk) 02:13, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Water ice is to Italian Ice as Hoagie is to Submarine sandwich

Chowbok- This redirect from the Philadelphia colloquial term water ice should go directly to Italian Ice as does the Philadelphia colloquial term hoagie gets redirected directly to submarine sandwich with no references (Subway, Rita's, etc.) The other definition of the term water ice - the scientific term for water from ice is actually just ice no references/diambiguous) and can be deleted.PhillyWaterIce ☠ 21:01, 26 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.45.42.40 (talk)

The term "water ice" (to mean frozen H2O) is used by NASA[6]. As a result, it is also used by cnet[7], space.com[8], Wired[9], huffingtonpost[10], Reuters[11], Discover[12], etc. As a result, Water ice is, as it should be, a disamb page. At Submarine sandwich, the term "hoagie" is sourced to The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. - SummerPhD (talk) 05:41, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

As there was no discussion to the contrary, I have returned the term "water ice" without the disputed reference. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:10, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Administrators' noticeboard

This article is being discussed at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Italian_ice. - SummerPhD (talk) 18:41, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Innocent edit becomes victim of ongoing disputes. Should I be offended?

I have better things in my life to do than worry about editing a Wikipedia article on something as trivial as Italian ice, so I won't spend too much time going back and forth on this after I make my case. My edit on 22June2010 (about Italian Ice being referred to as water ice in Philadelphia) was deleted by Chowbok, with this edit summary commentary obviously meant to offend: "Who cares what it's called in Philadelphia?" First of all, doesn't everyone agree that a little decorum should have been used in the edit summary? I don't correct others' edits using the language of schoolyard bullies, and I don't expect anyone to do it to me.

That being said, I now see why my edit was deleted with such an angry remark. I just took a look at the history page and this talk page. There are some real disagreements here that I may have been caught in the middle of. I believe I may have been mistaken for others who have been reprimanded for allegedly trying to promote certain Italian ice businesses, or of indirectly trying to do so by mentioning City of Philadelphia or the term "water ice". So I'll give my opinion, and try a more acceptable edit. If it doesn't work again, I'll move on to editing other articles.

The Italian American parts of Philly, as well as those of New York, and all parts of New Jersey (especially the Shore resorts) have historically been Ground Zero for Italian ice stands. Half the population of this heavily populated area grew up calling the product "water ice", so I can't possibly imagine the article not mentioning this common alternate name. However, I do agree not to mention any city or vendor by name.

As for any perceived differences between Italian ice and water ice, it's negligible to nonexistent. I've had plenty of John's and Rita's product. As for Italian ice being firmer than water ice, the difference is two minutes in the summer heat. I've seen the more watery version, the "scoopable" version, and the hard-as-a-rock grocer's freezer version, all three types marketed as both Italian Ice and/or water ice. I can use pizza as an example. The frozen one from the supermarket is different in many ways from the fresh, crispy one from the coal-fired oven at a pizza restaurant, but they are both still called pizza.

I hope I've made my case to at least get the mention of water ice back in the article, and to have no one else write mean edit summaries lest I write another diatribe like this. Thanks for listening.

24.0.195.5 (talk) 09:59, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

"Schoolyard bullies"? Geez, you need a little thicker skin. I don't think that was such a mean comment. Leaving the water ice thing in, but it needs a source.—Chowbok ☠ 16:06, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree it needs a source since the interchangeability of the two names has been (surprisingly) challenged earlier in this talk page. I searched for the phrase "Italian ice or water ice". The best source I could find (in my limited time) is a reference by the editors of the prestigious Zagat Survey of restaurants. Many other pages showed the commercially sold product being referred to by both names simultaneously, so I included two of the more legitimate looking ones. Maybe I'm guilty of overkill (three citations) but I anticipate somebody will delete at least two of them, and possibly find something better. Italian ice being called water ice is something so ubiquitous that nobody writing for any official food industry publication would feel the need to write about it because in the real world there is no dispute. The only difference of opinion I find is on wide open chatty web pages. So there it is, the Zagat Survey, the best I can do. --24.0.195.5 (talk) 13:19, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

The previous "dispute" was backlash from someone who wanted to add their water ice company into the article. After my repeated removal of their spam, they shot back with an accusation that I am in some way affilliated with Rita's, as I had cited a Rita's page for the water ice/Italian ice naming bit. I'm not sure if that other editor is still chacking back, but they might. If they do, there might be some heat about the Zagat's link. While Zagat's is a reliable source (IMO) for something of this nature, they might not like that it's in an article about Rita's. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:17, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, they're back. Now they aren't even bothering with claims of bias and such, just adding their spam. Unfortunately, we might need to semi-protect the article to block the IP vandalism. That would mean editors would need registered accounts several days old with several edits to other articles before they'd be able to edit this article. At the moment, I'm working on longer blocks of the IPs involved, semi-protection is a worst case. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:13, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing all the commercials and that ridiculous vandalism. You have way more patience than I. With all of this, I'm afraid to edit this article. I wanted to include Mango as a popular flavor, but I didn't because I came upon part of the Rita's website and saw it reported there as Rita's most popular flavor. On the other hand, where else could such information come from except from those who make and sell much of the product? It's also interesting that for decades, John's in South Philly has sold only Lemon Cherry, Pineapple, and Chocolate. By the way, I think I know the reason for one editor rearranging the popular flavors. Until about 1985 or 1990 the hard version of Italian ice/water ice found "in your grocer's freezer" (Luigi's, etc.) or on the ice cream vending truck (Jack & Jill, etc.) came only in lemon and cherry, so maybe the editor thought to list them first in popularity. I know Italian sodas and Italian hard candies come mainly in citrus flavors, so I suspect lemon was the original ice. Again, Thanks for your diligence. 24.0.195.5 (talk) 21:29, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, we found reliable sources for the most popular cheeses and rolls in cheesesteaks, so I wouldn't be surprised if something turned up here. This article is thinly sourced though. Searching for sources has been problematic due to the ubiquity of commercial sites for individual shops (including a lot of Rita's locations) and companies selling their wares. Weeding through them gets tiresome pretty quickly. Sources for flavors, a bit of history, etc. would be nice. Any reliable sources would be appreciated. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:06, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

It's funny, but Water Ice was invented in South Philadelphia. I didn't say Italian Ice, but Water Ice. Growing up in South Philadelphia and on Water Ice for 50 years, us Philadelphians know the difference, and it is a significant one. It's not just two minutes in the sun. If you ask a native South Philadelphian like myself what's the difference between a hoagie and a sub, the answer should be that there is no difference. Being from South Philadelphia we know there's no difference. However, if you asked the same question regarding Italian Ice and Water Ice, we would say that they are not the same. Maybe we South Philadelphians call Water Ice Water Ice and not Italian Ice, because simply put, thy're not the same. I don't understand why people find it inconceivable that it's possible that these two different names are two different things. I will say one thing, South Philadelphians will not go to a place in New York or New Jersey and claim that the Italian Ice they are selling is the same as Philadelphia Water Ice. We won't say because we know they are different. However, it's mostly people from outside Philadelphia who want to tell us Philadelphians that our Water Ice is the same as Italian Ice. If you can't tell the difference you might as well throw sorbet in the mix and call them all the same thing. There's places as far as in Texas selling what they call Philadelphia Water Ice. They're building their entire business, investing money time and energy on the concept that Philadelphia Water Ice is unique and therefore different than Italian Ice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fattyjoe (talk • contribs) 01:52, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

If you can find a reliable source explaining a difference, we'd have something to add. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:31, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

To the contrary, the two things have two different names. Therefore there should be reliable sources explaining on here that the two different names are in fact the same thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fattyjoe (talk • contribs) 22:58, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Here's your source. Before you add it, however, be aware that the article in question mentions Rita's. Due to an editor who keeps popping up under numerous names (ahem.) wanted to promote there company in this article and objects to the inclusion of anything mentioning Rita's. If you feel the need to include the source, feel free, but you've been warned. If you insist on saying the two terms refer to two different things, I'm going to need a source for that. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:25, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Flavors

Throughout the history of this page, there has been a constant battle over the most common flavors. other than a brief period when one seller of Italian ice cited his shop (ahem...), the lists have been unsourced. I don't see much sense in having this page without some mention of flavors. So, I did some original research. I know. Sue me.

I googled "Italian ice". The first page of hits listed 6 sellers of the stuff. I pulled the lists of their flavors (from 6 to 40 per page). The flavors I listed (blue raspberry, cherry, lemon, mango, orange, strawberry and watermelon) were available from most or all of the sellers. Actually, all were available from all of them, except orange and mango (from 5 each, both omitions were from the shops with 6 flavors). No other flavor was available from more than three. Don't like it? Feel free to "yell" at me here or on my talk page. Better yet, find a reliable independent source and cite a list. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:20, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

A slight correction. 4 of the 6 listed chocolate (the exceptions, again, were the two short lists). If anyone feels strongly about including it, I don't particularly mind. Frankly, I can't stand the stuff. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:36, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Chowbok- Remove SummerPHd from editing

SummerPhD is putting in incorrect facts about Italian ices and is not an authority on the product (see her quote above "Frankly, I can't stand the stuff.") and is putting in facts that do not exist- there are no egg products in Italian ice. Time for her erroneous edits to stop on this page. - PhillyWaterIce (talk) 11:26, 26 October 2010 (UTC) (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.45.42.40 (talk)

The information I have added is verifiable.

To contact Chowbok, please visit Chowbok's talk page. If you want to have me blocked, you might prefer to take it up at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. Thanks. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:42, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

PhillyWaterIce, do you have a source that proves SummerPhD wrong? SummerPhD has been doing a great job of removing spam that keeps reappearing from various anonymous users. Secundus Zephyrus (talk) 13:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Italian origin?

I was just curious whether Italian ice is actually Italian (originating in Italy) or whether, like Italian soda, it's just called that for marketing reasons. Both Italian ice and Italian soda are frequently available at Italian American restaurants, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. (I hardly think Olive Garden's menu is a reliable source for what you'll actually find in genuine Italian cuisine...) Lurlock (talk) 21:07, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

In Northern Europe, there are many ice-makers from Italian origin. Also the famous contests of ice-makers are held in Italy. And in Italy you can taste the same ice-creams (gelati).
I wonder why this article says in the infobox 'Place of origin: United States'. Bever (talk) 05:27, 13 February 2017 (UTC)