Talk:Gender representation in video games

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Comments

Thank you for your comments on my page, i found them very helpful. Your project seems to be coming along nicely. I think you could use a few more references, and some more "wikification". all of your chapters are good, and just need some expansion. I feel like you are headed in the right direction, and with some tweaking, you will have a very solid wiki entry. happyfriend77

Hey article looks good so far. I realized you only had three citation so I did a quick search and found an article about gender representation in online reviews of video games. I am not sure if this is something you would want to discuss on your page but here is the link if you are interested in giving it a look. http://filebox.vt.edu/users/jivory/JIvory2006MassCommunicationandSociety.pdf Keep up the good work (Abulak (talk) 13:35, 23 April 2012 (UTC))

Merging with the Portrayal of women in video games article

There's a proposal to merge this article with the article Portrayal of women in video games at Talk:Portrayal of women in video games#Merge proposal, you're invited to join the discussion. Diego (talk) 20:31, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Neutrality Disputed

My previous edits to the section "Objectification and sexualization", were undone per WP:CLAIM. Although the sources in that section may be cited, and regarding the article as a whole, what constitutes objectification and sexualization varies to an extent (especially by culture); this is even evident in the article on Sexual objectification. Is it possible to reword the article so that it's clear that it's representing the arbitrary views as to what and where sexualization or objectification is, etc. of those who are making the arguments and/or the sources cited, and not in a way that can be confused with presenting said views as those of Wikipedia? In other words, more or less like how it's done in the Sexual objectification article. Shrewmania (talk) 09:01, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

It may be achieved, but it should be done in a subtler way than merely stating "claimed" in front of each sentence. If there are several views, WP:NPOV requires us to identify them and present them in the article. So the way to change the article is to introduce new references that provide the alternate point of view, and summarize the parts that apply to the topic at hand (video game characters). Diego (talk) 14:57, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in the reply, but I also must ask why we're using Kotaku as a source. They're notorious for being an unreliable source. Shrewmania (talk) 23:26, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Kotaku is an absolutely unreliable source that decreases the trustworthiness of the page and its claims. If it is to be taken seriously, sections that cite Kotaku should be removed or changed to cite a better source. 190.102.145.54 (talk) 17:28, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Kotaku is listed as a reliable source at WP:VG/RS#List. You'd need to present good arguments to obtain consensus to remove it there.  Sandstein  19:33, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

POV tag

I've undone an addition of a {{POV}} tag that was added because "There are 5 sub-sections about Portrayal of women, and only 1 section about Portrayal of men, and that section is smaller than any of the sub-sections". That, however, does not mean that the article promotes a particular point of view (which one?) It simply reflects that the portrayal of women in games has found more attention in research than that of men. Or perhaps that there is equivalent research about men, but it hasn't been added yet. Even in this case, the correct response would not be to add a POV tag, but to indicate what specifically should be done to improve the article.  Sandstein  08:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Re-added POV tag, Mainly due to article being start class for a high-importance and controversial subject. However, as more balanced material is added (mainly for male representation and perhaps a LGBT mention) the tag will be removed. Please keep in mind that this is about gender representation and not sexism (though that is a factor) BallroomBlitzkriegBebop (talk) 19:23, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

I've removed the tag again because what you say is not a matter of neutrality: I'm not sure what the conflicting points of view here would be. It's a matter of the article lacking content in some important areas. For this, the "POV" tag is not appropriate. I've also changed the "start" assessment, as it does not reflect the range of content there is already.  Sandstein  22:21, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

It implies that woman are generally portrayed very poorly in video games and that men are portrayed with little difference as to real life. Also, the effects of gender representation in games sub section features a lot of weasel wording, and even talking about violence in games which is out of place in the article. I should clarify, I think this article needs a cleanup, as not to become a dumping ground of questionable information. References 28-29 come from the viewpoint of one person for example, but is used in this article as an example of a viewpoint of many. Theres also the problem of this article being the only "Gender representation of X media" on the english wiki, but thats something to worry about in the future. BallroomBlitzkriegBebop (talk) 00:48, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, there's probably just more research and publications on women's portrayal, and the article reflects this, but I agree that we need more content about men's portrayal. Though what there is does indicate that men are portrayed in a somewhat distorted fashion, too. As to sources, most sources are written by one person, but what matters is whether they are reliable sources as described in WP:RS.  Sandstein  10:49, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I need some help. How do I add the "section expansion needed" template? We both agree that the portrayal of men requires an expansion (or at least an indication of expansion), so lets add it! BallroomBlitzkriegBebop (talk) 16:27, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

There is stuff at {{expand}}, but I personally don't like these ugly templates for purely editorial deficiencies. What I recommend is ascertaining first whether there are appropriate reliable sources on which to base an expansion of that section. If there are, I'll help you write it.  Sandstein  21:26, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

I put the tag there so as to attract more people (many hands make light work), though I fear this will only make the article feel even more like an editorial as we could get flooded with unreliable "studies". BallroomBlitzkriegBebop (talk) 21:59, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Category:Video games featuring female protagonists

Category:Video games featuring female protagonists, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 11:39, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

How does the 'video games featuring female protagonists' list gather information? It appears to be generated automatically? I've noticed a few exclusions, even with a 'null edit' update. For example, I see Silent Hill 3 missing from the female protagonists list and instead included on the female antagonists list.Ashesnbones (talk) 19:43, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Studies?

The studies sub-section under Depiction of violence against Woman really pales in comparison to the rest of the article. featuring things that go against the manual of style (hypothesizing, vague,) overall making this article sound like an editorial. It's not exactly the way it's written though but mainly because the source is inconclusive, vague and overall unreliable. The section doesn't really need it anyway as it already features more solid examples rather then frankly bizarre social experiments. I'm going to delete it tomorrow if nobody objects. BallroomBlitzkriegBebop (talk) 00:44, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

On the "Impact on adults" section

The links point to pages that yield an "Internal Server Error" message. How prevelant are the reported effects? Are there other studies that yielded different results? Shrewmania (talk) 19:32, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Inclusion of "Tropes Vs Women in Video Games"

Due to the large impact it had I was thinking of adding some of the things mentioned in Anita Sarkeesian's "Tropes Vs Women in Video Games" series. more specifically the "Miss Male Trope" characters who are just feminized versions of an existing male character.Shadeturret (talk) 22:05, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I think that the Miss Male could deserve to be included, if it has enough references. Just a reference from Sarkeesian seems very weak (that's just a short point in a video, isn't it?) and what you have written is not really detailed. Jelt (talk) 21:57, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

RfC: Expanding "Portrayal of men" section and other issues

Since the section on women is too small to split into a separate article according to the rules of thumb noted here, we should focus primary efforts on finding ways of expanding the mentioned section. Obviously, this is a tall order: female stereotyping in games has been more focused upon than male, yet male characters are very frequently subjected to similar treatment. Can anyone help find references for such instances, or people commenting on such instances, whether they be books or online references? Also, the way the article is structured seems a little imbalanced. Any suggestions on that? I have my own ideas, but I would rather not act on them at once as this is an article dealing with an important and potentially-sensitive topic. --ProtoDrake (talk) 14:17, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

One issue I find is that analysis of male stereotyping is often based on the discussion of female stereotyping - stuff such as the "he-man" criticism feels less than authentic, as portraying a male as strong and independent in a game about strength is a different situation than portraying a woman as sexy and seductive in a game not about either.

As for balance... well, I don't view it as unbalanced. We don't see discussion of the "portrayal of men" in video games nearly as often for several reasons:

1. The issue became an issue only really recently, and thus doesn't have nearly as many or as high of quality sources which cover it;
2. The issue is overblown by a vocal minority.

Of course, this is partially a non-neutral POV, but that's how I read it - the sources don 't exist because the problem isn't really a problem. We see the issue with female characters because female characters are, more often than not, heavily-flawed and usually feature significant problems common in the industry, such as excessive sexualization (Ivy Valentine), weakening (Samus Aran), relative uselessness (Princess Peach), "token girl" (Chun-Li, at first), etc. We do not see this same level of sexualization in male characters, and the act of retroactively making a male character weak is not entirely common. While Tomb Raider was not as bad as people expected in that area, it still was an origin story about how Lara Croft suffered and toiled to become the hero that she was. This is a rare thing in established video game character canon - Nathan Drake, Mario, Butt Strife, Sonic the Hedgehog, Gordon Freeman, Master Chief - we don't see these things happening for these characters. But I'm getting off-topic - the meat of the matter is that certain things are discussed more than other things. The section which covers the portrayal of men should not by default be the same size or even similar size to the portrayal of females section if the sources do not exist in the first place. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 16:25, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

I also don't think that the sections need to be the same size. They should reflect the degree of discourse about the respective topics in reliable sources. My impression is that the portrayal of women in video games has been discussed much more in reliable sources because it is perceived as much more problematic, for the reasons discussed in the article, than the portrayal of men. It's natural for our article to reflect this. That said, if there is more material about the portrayal of men, it should of course be included.  Sandstein  18:30, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

The article's various sections should have depth according to the weight they are given in reliable sources. If men's representation is significantly less covered in real life, it should be significantly less covered here too. I don't mind seeing any of the sections expand however. I do think that LGBT representation should be renamed to cover the T part specifically. - hahnchen 20:22, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the women part will always be a lot longer than the men part, because there are so many more sources. However, the men part lack any statistics on how many are the main characters (from EEDAR for example), or the villain. At the moment, it focuses only on the sexual object or idealized appearance of men in video games. I'm quite sure some people have complained about Kratos from God of War, because he was a parody of the "super manly" character, and maybe there were some for characters like Duke Nukem too. Jelt (talk) 22:19, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Did what I could to clean up the article. "Deep" articles like this tend to stagnate without someone watching them. New editors, anons, and fanboys come along and add all kinds of poorly sourced, POV junk, and I've done my best to remove it. I hope that helps if some significant expansion is planned. PraetorianFury (talk) 18:49, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

I have the impression you removed some parts only because the links were dead or the studies weren't freely available. There's a template for dead links and not freely available references are perfectly valid (there's also a template "must be checked" or something like this if you had doubts about what the references were really saying). Jelt (talk) 16:46, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

The fanboyish style of the material combined with a pattern of unreliability and fallacious citations has lead me to be extremely skeptical, so yes, I deleted many things that could not be independently verified. Feel free to restore things you can verify. PraetorianFury (talk) 21:30, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Ars Technica posted an article this week about this very topic - see [1]. It should be used to expand the section. Diego (talk) 17:33, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

PS: Another related article from ars technica: [2]. Diego (talk) 21:58, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

• The RFC is not stated with the traditional expectations of an RFC, what you are doing is soliciting third party commentary rather than requesting the resolution to an editor conflict. Damotclese (talk) 20:39, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Marketing Portrayal

I'm interested in mentioning how female player characters appear in marketing as opposed to their male counterparts.Shadeturret (talk) 03:54, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

A good way to do this would obviously be to cover booth babes and hired cosplayers. There's also this: [3] - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 08:13, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

"X characters in video games" categories

The article is labeled with the Male, Female and LGBT categories not because it describes a particular character, but because it describes the concept of those characters. It therefore is working as the main article "which describes the subject of that category" for these categories, which don't have stand-alone articles on their own for their specific concepts (all those articles were merged here). I've reinstated the categories for this reason. Diego (talk) 11:44, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Changing the redirect page "Sexism in video gaming"

This article doesn't deal with sexism in video gaming, but deals with the portrayal of genders in video games. I think that an article directly dealing with this topic could be made from the sexual harassment in video gaming article, as it goes beyond the scope of sexual harassment. I already did it on the French wikipedia, but here, the page "Sexism in video gaming" is used as a redirect. Is that okay with you? Jelt (talk) 21:27, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Needs heavy revision

Here are a few concerns:

1. The 48% women statistic in the lede is disputed and has some nuance. As such, it shouldn't be in the lede, but have its own section. I'll move this to its own subsection so it can be better addressed.

2. The paragraph on Tomb Raider and sexual violence makes claims that are disputed. They should therefore not be stated as fact. I've fixed this.

3. Too many of the contentious claims are supported by only one source, which source is treated as fact. This needs to be fixed. I'll work on it.

4. Generally, the article needs cleaning up and better organisation.

Willhesucceed (talk) 20:01, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not really disputing the rest, but as to 1, disputed by whom, and what do you mean by nuance? Thanks,  Sandstein  20:21, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, that statistic is for America; it will differ from country to country. Secondly, there's a difference between "hardcore" and "casual" gamers; for example, the Wii U's demographic is 90+% male, whereas mobile games are predominantly female. I'll dig up the sources and put that in its own section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Willhesucceed (talk • contribs) 20:43, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

We can discuss whether this belongs in the lead, but I doubt that the proportion is materially different in other countries (although the nation to which the data applies should be mentioned). The division between "hardcore" and "casual" games is one of many relatively arbitrary divisions in gaming (such as by platform, genre, etc.), and while it may be interesting to have gender balance data for any of these categories, it does not change the gender balance across all categories of games, which is what the scope of this article is.  Sandstein  08:04, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

The fact that only one source exists for something does not justify its removal, and you have often removed large quantities of reliably-sourced material based upon nothing more than your bald assertion that it is unreliable. I find that unacceptable, and have reverted most of your removals. Please discuss these issues here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:58, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure I post this at the right intersection, but I'm a bit irritated about the mentioning of Ada Wong as a Sidekick. In the first Resident Evil were two playable main-characters, one of them Jill Valentine. Yes, in RE4 there was no playable female, but in most of the other RE-Games you could play a female main-char. So why focusing on a sidekick if there are female main-chars available. Wouldn't this make Ada Wong a bad choice for supporting chars?

Female action heroes and breast physics

Here's a bunch of high-quality sources about female depiction, let's see if we can work them in Depiction of women. Diego (talk) 08:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-23588515
• https://etd.ohiolink.edu/ap/10?0::NO:10:P10_ACCESSION_NUM:bgsu1363616108
• http://books.google.es/books?id=0PKSFHwhTGYC&lpg=PP1&hl=es&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false
• http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-007-2777-9_9#page-1

Two Three references

Here's a couple of references expanding on the topics of this article. Ars Technica says how studios are still wary of publishing games with a female protagonist, and Totalxbox has an interview with Gears of War's designers who explain the efforts they took (facing both technical and cultural problems) to design female characters that don't fall into the stereotype of sexy woman. Diego (talk) 10:05, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

An encouraging tale about representation of gender issues and human relations in games. " Isn’t it odd how it’s taken so long to reach this stage in games – the stage at which human conversations and relationships feel real?" [4] Diego (talk) 17:07, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Sources on Gamer demographics

The studies linked are rather... questionable in my opinion. There has to be better links saying basically the same thing but without the GOAL of showing women as 50% of the market.

1:st source is 404ed (here's their new link if someone wants to fix since I'm not certain how to do it: http://www.theesa.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/ESA_EF_2014.pdf). It does indeed show women comprise 48% of people playing games, but the study uses anyone who's ever touched a video game as gamers. The whole part of the study that mentions gender just seems to be made to get the result that women make up around 50% of the gamers. Their definition of what a game player is, is so broad that it could almost be considered a study in how many women there are compared to men in the richer parts of the world. This part pretty much screams bias: Women age 18 or older represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (36%) than boys age 18 or younger (17%)"

Here's a study (used in other articles on wikipedia as well) that shows similar results but doesn't make statements like that: http://www.isfe.eu/sites/isfe.eu/files/attachments/euro_summary_-_isfe_consumer_study.pdf

Sadly, this one also has a very broad definition of what a gamer is (used a game once the last 12 months = gamer) and won't compare time spent gaming to gender even though it has the information (it's capable of checking what games the different genders play AND the time gamers spend on average).

2:nd source has no sources or studies itself and is basically a blogpost from what I understand. However, google translate might mess with some of the things. Source states the % with no reference to any study done. Written on wiki as fact even though there's not even a study behind it. There must be a better source for this.

3:rd source says that women make up x% of the gaming market in different categories, but the study is made by looking at game PURCHASES and not actual gaming. People who buy games are not the same as the people who play them.

9:th "critics have more control over sales than we think" "Games that allow you to choose your gender are reviewed better than games that offer male-only heroes, but the games with male only heroes sold better." "Female-led games do find an easier path to get covered" "Games with only female heroes are given half the marketing budget as games with male heroes. That’s an enormous handicap that cripples their ability to sell well. “Games with a female only protagonist, got half the spending of female optional, and only 40 percent of the marketing budget of male-led games. Less than that, actually”" "Games with exclusively male heroes sold around 75 percent better than games with only female heroes." Conclusion? "Games with exclusively female heroes don’t sell (because publishers don’t support them)" Feels dishonest to fraise everything like this and it's so full of fuzzy stats that it's impossible to know what's the results are... Some of the statements even contradict others. Basically female-only games get more cover, same reviews and get a higher budget on marketing compared to their sales. They state that critics/reviews control sales yet say that female-only games have no chance. The part in wikipedia about it is pretty much subjective statements from the article except for the part that there's few female heroes.

10:th not availible on the internet. Traesket (talk) 15:11, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Preservation of Female Characters' Youth In Tekken 3

I noticed you needed to know which version of the fighting game Tekken either keeps the female characters youthful despite a 20 year passage of time, or replaces them with their daughters. That happened in Tekken 3. Nina and Anna Williams were frozen, while Julia Chang is the 18 year old daughter of Michelle Chang with the exact same moves. Possible references could be the character descriptions of these fighters from Tekkenpedia: http://eng.tekkenpedia.com/wiki/Nina_Williams http://eng.tekkenpedia.com/wiki/Anna_Williams http://eng.tekkenpedia.com/wiki/Julia_Chang

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Suggested Addition

Hello everyone. I came across some information that I believe would be well suited for section 2.4.1: Prevalence.

My proposed addition is as follows: According to an analysis conducted by Downs and Smith, playable and plot relevant characters in the 60 best selling video games of 2003 were predominantly male. Females who were depicted were frequently sexualized. The female characters analyzed were depicted partially naked or with unrealistic proportions more often than the male characters were.

I believe the most appropriate place for the addition would be before the sentence "A study of 225 video game covers found that both male and female character's physiques were over-exaggerated, but women were more "physically altered" (especially in the bust) than their male counterparts, and even more so if the female was the main character of the game."

If anyone has any thoughts about this, I would appreciate the feedback. Thank you. NothingAboutFlowers (talk) 03:27, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

References

Sources

Hello, everyone. I have several sources that I believe will be of use for expanding this article. I have listed them below:

"Gaming at the Edge: Sexuality and Gender at the Margins of Gamer Culture" by Adrienne Shaw

"Dressing Commander Shepard in pink: Queer playing in a heteronormative game culture" by Ondřej Moravec, et. al.

"Acting like a Tough Guy: Violent-Sexist Video Games, Identification with Game Characters, Masculine Beliefs, & Empathy for Female Violence Victims." by Alessandro Gabbiadini, et. al.

"The virtual census: representations of gender, race and age in video games." by Dmitri Williams, et. al.

"Putting the Gay in Games Cultural Production and GLBT Content in Video Games" by Adrienne Shaw

"Do You Identify As a Gamer? Gender, Race, Sexuaity, and Gamer Identity" By Adrienne Shaw

"Confronting Heteronormativity in Online Games" By Alexis Pulos

"Rated M for Mature : Sex and Sexuality in Video Games" By Wysocki and Lauteria.

"Hot Dates and Fairytale Romances: Studying Sexuality in Video Games" By Mia Consalvo

"A Gay History of Gaming" By Keza Macdonald

NothingAboutFlowers (talk) 01:55, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Possible unsupported claim

1. In the Portrayal of Women: Forms section, the statement is made that almost every example of female protagonists in games are motivated by an outward source; this statement lacks a citation and possibly a source, as the previous citation listed is only regarding a specific game and not games in general. 2. The lead section openly states that women are underrepresented in video games, while the section on women takes up a vast portion of the article on the whole and contains multiple subsections of different facets of the topic; we should look into finding more information for the men, LGBT, and effects sections. 3. Additionally, reference 51 is no longer hosted by the link provided; another host site should be found or the reference modified to exclude the hyperlink. Esperacchias (talk) 00:35, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Addition to Portrayal of LGBT Characters

Hello. I hope everyone is having a good day. I have a contribution that will address one of Esperacchias’ concerns: expanding upon the Portrayal of LGBT Characters section. I propose that the first two sentences in the section be removed, as they are both unsourced and the second is not expanded upon. I would also like to make the following addition:

“Shaw states that video games are a heteronormative media. After interviewing 12 individuals who write about or contribute to the production of video games, Shaw concludes that the lack of LGBT representation in video games is due to several aspects of the medium. These include the demographic of those who play games, the attitudes of those who create games, the risk of backlash in the industry, and the storytelling limitations of the medium.

Choice based LGBT content, such as optional same sex romance in Bioware games , is a low- risk form of representation that occurs only in video games. When representation is included, it is often through in-game choices that place the responsibility for representation on players instead of developers. In games with LGBT representation, some aspects of LGBT marginalization that occur in contemporary culture are depicted despite the game's overall adherence to reality Both Shaw’s interviewees and LGBT players prefer LGBT representation to be normalized rather than made to seem abnormal or special.

LGBT gamers use queer readings of media to compensate for their lack of representation in it. As concluded in a study by Moravec, this “imaginative play” is the most common method LGBT gamers use to relate to in game avatars. ”

This is still just a draft of my contribution, so if anyone has any suggestions, critique, or feedback about where to place this information in the section I would appreciate hearing it. NothingAboutFlowers (talk) 21:56, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Sounds good. The first paragraph could be made more concise thus: "According to Adrienne Shaw, video games are a heteronormative media – that is, they generally do not represent LGBT people. Reasons for this include the demographics of those who play games, the attitudes of those who create games, the risk of backlash in the industry, and the storytelling limitations of the medium." "Heteronormative" is an uncommon term that can be explained to readers in this way.  Sandstein  08:00, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

The first two sentences are WP:SUMMARY style for LGBT themes in video games, and can be verified with the content there. It describes the origins of the topic, while your additions describe the current general status. They complement each other, I think both should be included. Diego (talk) 11:31, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Keeping the current first sentences is ok, but only if in-line references for them can be added.  Sandstein  11:45, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Hello! Thank you for helping me revise my first draft. Based on feedback I have received, I have both revised and expanded my contribution, and have added it to the Portrayal of LGBT Characters section. I still welcome any feedback on it, and I will take any suggestions you may have. NothingAboutFlowers (talk) 14:12, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Remove section?

Actually, come to think of it, I question whether the whole section even belongs in this article, and whether you should not rather work this into LGBT themes in video games and LGBT characters in video games. Sexuality is something quite distinct from gender, and while there are some parallel issues, the topics can't easily be amalgamated. Also there are WP:CFORK issues arising from covering the topic in three places.  Sandstein  23:12, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Transgenderism is definitely related to gender, as the name implies; so it is an adequate subtopic. The section is (or should be) mostly a WP:SUMMARY of LGBT themes in video games, so the structure shouldn't be a concern - the main article is clearly the "themes" one. Diego (talk) 16:27, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Transgenderism is related to gender, yes, but lesbian and gay themes are not, so if anything this section should be rewritten to focus on (trans)gender issues only. To the original poster, I've also AfDed LGBT characters in video games because its content is mostly useless and what is not useless is a content fork, so that helps focusing our coverage in this area also.  Sandstein  16:35, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

"Gender" vs "sexuality" is a weird distinction to make in cultural subjects. Typically the difference is blurry outside a medical context; popular understanding certainly isn't so laser-focused as you imply. LGBT *is* discussed in this article outside the Portrayal of LGBT characters section, see Portrayal of men. I'm not convinced that sexual orientation is something to be excluded from an article discussing gender roles, sexual objectification and sexism.

BTW, being a content fork is not a reason for deletion; content forks are a perfectly valid way to increase detail of articles as described at WP:SPLIT. Diego (talk) 16:47, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

If anyone thinks it best to do so, I could move my contribution to LGBT themes in video games. Personally, though I acknowledge that gender and sexuality are not the same thing, I believe that there is enough of a connection to have a short section on this article. NothingAboutFlowers (talk) 13:50, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't think you should do that, and I agree that sexuality is directly relevant to the topic of gender studies, so it should be mentioned here. Diego (talk) 14:01, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

See also: Gamergate

I added Gamergate to the "See also" section and it was removed. From that article:

[In 2014] nearly as many women played video games (48%) as men,[110] and this broader audience began to question some assumptions and tropes that had been common in games. [...] concern over these changes is integral to Gamergate, especially a fear that sexualized games aimed primarily at young men might eventually be replaced by less sexualized games marketed to broader audiences.[19] Critics became interested in issues of gender representation and identity in video games.[87][106] One prominent feminist critic of the representation of women in gaming is Anita Sarkeesian,[34][35] whose Tropes vs. Women in Video Games project is devoted to female stereotypes in games. Her fund-raising campaign and videos were met with hostility and harassment by some gamers. Further incidents raised concerns about sexism in video gaming.[87][106][111]

(My emphasis.) Lot of references in that article. It seems of more than tangential usefulness: a reader who makes it through all of this article may well be interested in that one. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 20:54, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Hm. Wouldn't it be possible, then, to expand this article with a brief treatment of how the issue of gender representation has been discussed in the public sphere, rather than a somewhat cryptic "see also" link? Without rehashing the whole Gamergate issue, of course.  Sandstein  21:12, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

By all means, expand the text of this article if you want to. All I have the energy for is a see also link. I agree that bare links can appear cryptic; WP:SEEALSO suggests "a brief annotation when a link's relevance is not immediately apparent, when the meaning of the term may not be generally known, or when the term is ambiguous". I generally use something from the lead of an article to write a gloss. In this case:

The Gamergate controversy concerns issues of sexism and progressivism in video game culture, stemming from a harassment campaign conducted primarily through the use of the Twitter hashtag #GamerGate. Gamergate is used as a blanket term for the controversy, the harassment campaign and actions of those participating in it, and the loosely organized movement that emerged from the hashtag.

Perhaps - "Gamergate, a controversy concerning (among other things) sexism in video game culture". Carbon Caryatid (talk) 21:45, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

• I agree with expanding the article to briefly mention Gamergate in the prose. Maybe the "Effect of gender representation in games" section is a place where this would fit the best, explaining how the controversy was connected with attitudes towards gender representation (which was a small part of the whole thing, but the most relevant to this article). Diego (talk) 08:48, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

• Fine with me.  Sandstein  16:01, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

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"Video games are a heteronormative media."

In the current revision of this page, the line "Video games are a heteronormative media." is present, with two citations. One is to this chapter from the book The Video Game Theory Reader, wherein the author explains their belief that video games are a heteronormative media through their anecdotal experiences with video games such as The Sims and Final Fantasy IX. At no point does the author make the sweeping claim that the entirety of video games are heteronormative, nor would this chapter support that statement if they did (though it provides excellent specific examples of heteronormative bias in video games). The other citation is to this paper, wherein a group of students from Charles University in Prague sought to further the concept that video games are biased towards heteronormative interests by interviewing a group of LGBT gamers. While the article paints an argument which supports the idea that video games are a heteronormative media, it stops short of making the generalization that video game as a whole are a heteronormative media:

• "This article is based on a small-scale qualitative research focusing on a mere subset of potential queer playing strategies, and we can therefore make no generalizations."

Because neither citation explicitly supports a claim which appears to otherwise be subjective in nature (Who decides what is objectively heteronormative? How do you quantify heteronormativity in games?), I was planning to replace it with a statement that unambiguously adheres to WP:NPOV, either by more accurately representing the paper's findings on heteronormative bias in video games, or by removing the line outright. Looking at earlier talk sections, I see that changing this line may possibly be contentious, so I'll leave this here for everyone's consideration. FlotillaFlotsam (talk) 05:50, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

"Chainmail bikini" redirects here, but...

...it is not a video-game-specific issue. Common in films, even before modern computers existed. Equinox ◑ 01:05, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Heteronormativity

Hello,

I've reverted your edit at Gender representation in video games.

I believe that the statement altered ("Video games are a heteronormative media") violates WP:NPOV, as this claim is neither substantiated by the citations given, nor is it a blatantly observable fact. I altered this phrase in the belief that it's ultimately better to be overly-specific regarding attribution for a potentially contentious claim than to have Wikipedia state it as an objective truth. While I tried to restructure the statement to neither appear objective nor discredit its citations, there may be a better way to word it; would you mind chiming in on the talk page for the article? I'd appreciate it if you could provide more insight, both on the reasons for your revert and what should be done now. FlotillaFlotsam (talk) 05:23, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Moving this here from my talk page.  Sandstein  10:51, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

@FlotillaFlotsam: I take your point. But in general terms, we are careful to attribute statements to their originators in the text if the statements are controversial in the sense that there are other reliable sources with a different view. It's in such circumstances that we write sentences like "According to A, X is true, but according to B, X is likely false". If the statement is not controversial, such in-text attribution is usually omitted. Therefore, do sources exist that are of the view that video games, as a whole, are not heteronormative?  Sandstein  10:55, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

@Sandstein: It's to my understanding that regardless of the potential controversy that might arise from a statement, editors should always strive to present information in an objective manner, and when that's not possible, to attribute information to its source. This is why, for instance, Wikipedia doesn't itself refer to ISIS as a "terrorist group", despite this being a largely uncontroversial designation; even in cases where it appears to be "common sense" to apply subjectivity, Wikipedia has remained steadfast in retaining a wholly neutral point of view. Moving on, I believe that "Video games are a heteronormative media" would be considered a controversial statement; to claim that a billion-dollar industry is universally complicit in any one sort of behavior, positive or negative, is an extraordinary claim, and such claims require citations which give unshakable credence to the claim. As I mentioned above, I believe the citations provided are excellent anecdotal examples of heteronormative tendencies in the video game industry, but they cannot speak for the breadth of the industry (and in the case of Shaw's paper, an explicit warning is given against interpreting the limited scope of their study in such a manner).

I don't wish to provide an opposing viewpoint that video games aren't a heteronormative media (I personally believe they are), but I do want to contest this overly-objective phrase being used despite, by the nature of a proof being unreasonably difficult/impossible to provide, will always technically remain subjective. FlotillaFlotsam (talk) 15:07, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Sexualization and broadening detail for Lara Croft

Hi there. I would like to add more information to Lara Croft's character in the Evolution header. I would like to include more information from Tracey Deitz article [5] into her character analysis. I'd also like to include less vague terms for what research and reoccuring themes in articles and discussion mean in terms of the Sexulization header. This would be narrowed down by certain game theories that Tracey Deitz detailed in her journal and Beasley and Collins-Stanley detailed in their evaluations in this journal [6] about gender roles and the impact that sexualization has on children as they engage with these games. Hopejanice22 (talk) 15:15, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Children? What makes you think that the main demographic for these games are children? Per video game culture: "As of 2016, the average age for a video game player is 35, a number slowly increasing as people who were children playing the first arcade, console and home computer games continue playing now on current systems." ... "The average age of players across the globe is mid to late 20s, and is increasing as older players grow in numbers." Dimadick (talk) 06:53, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

@Hopejanice22: Please bear in mind that Lara Croft has her own article. Any additional detail about her character would be more appropriate in that article rather than in this one, which has a more general scope and should not go into into detail abut specific games or characters. Sandstein 07:56, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

@Dimadick: I never stated that children were the main demographic, but when many of these games were created with the sexualization of the characters in question, there was a major market for children and young adults. Your source discussing what the average age for a video game player being 35 in 2016 isn't necessarily relevant because that is not a credible argument for the games and characters that were created in the late 90's-early 2000s. Your keyword is: slowly. Children and teens had high exposure to the sexualization of these female characters at the time of their creation. Tracey Lien of Polygon argued in a Pit Journal that the surge of games of similar content to Lara Croft were "stylized marketing practices used to sell videogames to young boys" and that they should be "the first aspect that should be addressed as they often harness damaging stereotypes and perpetuate an advertising culture that does not consider female participation in the industry." [7] I think that is significant to post in this article when it comes to the general scope. Hopejanice22 (talk) 03:25, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

@Sandstein: I completely understand your point of view. I believe I specified the topic. The add-ons that I would like to make would be in broadening the definitions of the terms research and reoccuring themes in articles and discussions means at the header of Sexualization in the general scope not just specific to Lara Croft. Hopejanice22 (talk) 03:30, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Working on this page

i am workin on this page and I am adding information in some sections like "as antagonists" and "as supporting characters." --Jordangentry (talk) 19:22, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Needs more gender parity

Women need a corresponding "as powerful", while men need "as player characters", "as supporting characters", "as antagonists", and "violence against men". SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 10:21, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Also for I don't know how long an illustration here was something that wasn't even real in any way. It was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VisualNovelGame.png with no indication it's a fake screenshot of a non-existing game in the caption. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 14:46, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

If you find relevant reliable sources (and it's quite possible that there are some), feel free to add such content. WP:NPOV requires that we treat each issue according to its weight in reliable sources, not according to some notion of parity. Sandstein 14:57, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Sexism In Gameing listed at Redirects for discussion

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Sources

Found this source. Video games have been around for 5+ decades now, and some historic context would help illustrate how this is evolving.

https://www.theringer.com/2020/5/12/21254593/first-person-shooter-perfect-dark-20th-anniversary-female-protagonists — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:8720:3995:0:0:0:A (talk) 18:22, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

The whole article starts from a blatant lie.

"Although women make up about half of video game players, they are significantly underrepresented as characters in mainstream games, despite the prominence of iconic heroines such as Samus Aran or Lara Croft. "

No, women aren't half of "video game players" when it comes to most genres, especially the ones actively discussed in the article. They are only a small percentage of those who play RPG, MOBA, tactical, actions, and other genres (link below). The claim that women are also half of the whole population of players is also dubious, at best, and hugely depends on the definition of the words "player". In the end, I'm not sure why the whole page exists in the first place, as it's highly subjective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Genre_preferences

5.165.212.154 (talk) 11:51, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

We have to go with what reliable sources say, and cannot second-guess them or try to rebut them ourselves through original research. The statement that women make up about half of video game players is cited in the first paragraph of the first section gamer demographics. For what it's worth, it does talk about the genre-specific differences, but even then, the most extreme difference (in FPSes) is merely 66%-34%, whereas (as the article notes further down) only 4% of action, shooter, and role-playing games have an exclusively female protagonist. --Aquillion (talk) 12:02, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Breast physics into Gender representation in video games#Sexualization

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I believe that since breast physics are largely notable in the context of the fact that they are an example of oversexualization of video game women, the article should be merged with the relevant article on the topic. A lot of other info in this article, like how breast physics are created, is irrelevant to the typical reader. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 01:09, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

• I disagree. It‘s a distinct subtopic and appropriate spinoff article per WP:SS, and too large to usefully merge. Sandstein 05:00, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

  The only reason it's too large to merge is because it's filled with what is essentially a WP:OVERLAP of soft body physics That can be removed and a simple link to the relevant article put in its place. The part about "unnatural breast physics" can also easily be condensed into one sentence ("Some breasts bounce strangely due to technical limitations, while in other cases, this is purposely done to emphasize their sexuality"). The list of games is not super necessary, as having breast physics is not a defining trait of a game - a sentence of two of the most egregious offenders can suffice. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 16:59, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

• I disagree as well. Being irrelevant or otherwise to the reader has no bearing on whether a topic is notable in its own right. Anyway, a better proposed merge target if it comes to that would have been Sex and nudity in video games, not Gender representation in video games. Haleth (talk) 10:12, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

  A character does not have to be nude to have breast physics so it would fit poorly in an article about "sex and nudity". The main controversy about them is that they contribute to oversexualization by being unrealistic. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 15:22, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

It most certainly is sexualized content. Sexual content does not necessarily have to involve nudity for it to be considered controversial by some quarters. Or perhaps a better title for a topic about sex and nudity in video games is "sexual content in video games". Haleth (talk) 15:42, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

While I'm not sure it will go through, I've put in a request to revert the undiscussed move from Sex in video games to the current title, which goes against both WP:DIFFCAPS and WP:CONCISE. In that case I would probably agree that it be merged there instead if that is the majority opinion. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 16:46, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Current lead image

Is File:Alison Carroll 6.jpg the suitable lead image of this article? The whole intro mentions not just women but men and minorities as well. If the current image needs to be still used, why not adding another lead image showing a male? That way, Carroll on one side; male on the other. --George Ho (talk) 09:45, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

George Ho, in that case, how about we swap the Alison Carroll image with the Link and Zelda cosplay photo from further down the article? I think it conveys an archetypal role for a typical male protagonist and female supporting character in many video games in that one free image from Wiki commons, and broad enough to represent the issues discussed throughout the article. Haleth (talk) 12:05, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Hmm... The picture shows Link kneeling and kissing Zelda's hand. Unsure whether it'll make a difference. Someone else would object, I figure. Well, why not then? --George Ho (talk) 14:09, 14 October 2021 (UTC); edited, 14:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

But you already questioned whether Alison Carroll being in the lead image is undue, and maybe it is since the whole point of its caption appears to be emphasizing the sexualized nature of many high profile female video game characters, which I believe is not the only point made by an article titled "gender representation in video games". There is however, substantial discussion within the article about the different roles male and female video game characters play and how their mannerisms tend to be portrayed by developers as observed by critics. Instead of uploading or finding another image just to pair up with the Alison Carroll image, which in itself is kind of original research because no source cited in this article makes a direct comparison between Lara Croft and another male character from a sexualized angle, I suggested what I believe to be a better alternative since I am aware that the relationship between Link and Zelda has been covered by reliable, independent sources. The image of a male hero kissing the hand of a demure princess is a classic gender role archetype. Haleth (talk) 14:27, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

I recently moved the Croft image down to "Sexualization" section. I now realized that the Link/Zelda image is used for the "As supporting characters" section. George Ho (talk) 14:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia Ambassador Program course assignment

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Study on sexualization in video games

I added a section with an objective, reliable, scientific study on this topic and it was removed on the grounds that it was "copied" from other websites. The user "Wiae" is completely out of line, and completely incorrect. I copied the words from the scientific reference itself, which was quoted on those other irrelevant websites he has tried to use as verifiable proof for taking down the reliable source. Reference is right here:

Feel free to read it to your hearts content.Belregard (talk) 04:05, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi Belregard, the vast majority of text you find online is protected by copyright and cannot be added to Wikipedia directly. More information about this is available at WP:COPYRIGHTS, which explains why I removed the text. The best way forward is to rewrite text in your own words. Thanks, /wiae /tlk 11:09, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Okay, that's a lot better of an explanation. The only thing you said after the removal was "copied". Belregard (talk) 16:15, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Try to refrain from personal attacks against other editors. XeCyranium (talk) 22:33, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

References

Wiki Education assignment: Intro to Women's, Gender and Sexuality Studies-17

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Wiki Education assignment: Technology and Culture

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Sexualization of men

"Furthermore, it has also been noted that while female characters' sexualization is done as fan service and treats them as objects, the sexualization of male characters is done as a male power fantasy. [...]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_representation_in_video_games#:~:text=It%20has%20been,three.%5B102%5D

The measure for the objectification of male bodies should be pornographic imaging and exposure, like with women. The article perfectly makes that point later and is convincing about how male objectification is less common and different. Making an extra effort to belittle the objectification where it occurs is clearly straw-man-feminism. Especially when done by citing speculation in journalistic articles. Hyper-muscled, hyper-fit depictions are pushing unrealistic beauty standards and hinting pornography. Nobody denies that. Framing that as purely a "male power fantasy" is like calling women's objectification a "female vamp fantasy". There is no good reason to undermine specificity and bloating this already long article. Please remove the bloat. 2001:A61:12F1:CF01:1868:8661:7EAD:8F2 (talk) 04:04, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

"Male protagonist bingo" listed at Redirects for discussion

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