Talk:Elizabeth II/Archive 46

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The longest reign of any monarch without enforced regency (Louix XIV had regent for 8 yrs)

As it points out in the 2nd lead para of Louis XIV, "Louis [who became king on 14 May 1643] began his personal rule of France in 1661, after the death of his chief minister, the Cardinal Mazarin."

Packing this out (see his infobox and obvious links)

• 05 Sep 1638 Birth
• 14 May 1643 Accession -- his mum acted as regent
• 07 Sep 1651 Declared adult -- regency ended but he chose to delegate rule to Chief Minister
• 09 Mar 1661 Started to rule personally
• 01 Sep 1715 Died

Ignoring the 10 years when he delegated everything to a chief minister (after all QEII did that too) it is inescapable that he had no authority for the first 8 yrs, so the time during which he had authority to rule was (according to [1]) was 63 years 11 months 26 days. Conveniently, France had adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1582, so unlike in the UK, we don't have to worry about any lost days in the calendar change (which that site seems to ignore). Unfortunately for Louis XIV, by that metric, he drops to about 8th in the List of longest-reigning monarchs, only three months above Victoria, who rises to at least 9th (I say at least, because there isn't enough information to confirm whether the two 7th century monarchs had regents, so I'm assuming they didn't). Ferdinand III is demoted from 9th because of his own subjection to regency.

As confirmation of this view please see Johann II, Prince of Liechtenstein#Early life, which states:

Until he was surpassed by Elizabeth II on 9 May 2022, his reign had been the longest precisely documented tenure of any European monarch since antiquity in which a regent (that is, a regent of a minority regency) was never employed.

Since QEII is second only to the European monarch Louis XIV in the figures including regency, I suggest we amend the last sentence of the 1st para of the lead (currently

Her reign of 70 years and 214 days is the longest of any British monarch and the longest recorded of any female head of state in history)

to read:

Her reign of 70 years and 214 days is the longest recorded of any female head of state in history and the longest precisely documented tenure of any head of state in the world without being subject to enforced regency.

Enginear (talk) 03:47, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Oppose - as Louis XIV was King of France for 72 years, regency included or not. GoodDay (talk) 03:58, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Oppose we should hit the major statistical points but not get bogged down in it.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:48, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Oppose - we should keep it simple and avoid any unnecessary modifiers. For the record I think we should just change it to say 'the second longest reign' instead of splitting it by gender since it's even more straightforward and frankly saying 'longest reign by a female' is unlikely to express the fact that she is the second longest reigning of any gender. ‡ El cid, el campeador ^talk 16:18, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 September 2022

Dates are written as DD/MM/YYYY as opposed to MM/DD/YYYY. Is there a reason incorrect date format is used Baggedpizza98 (talk) 00:18, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: DMY is more correct than MDY here on a England-centric article. See MOS:DATETIES Cannolis (talk) 00:29, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Double link in lead

Do we really need two links to the article about her death in the lead? It's currently linked twice; in the first paragraph "until her death in 2022" and later is linked again in the last paragraph "Elizabeth died aged 96." The first link should be enough for readers IMO. 88.108.44.8 (talk) 06:45, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I am sure it was an innocent mistake, but I removed it per WP:OVERLINK. Thanks ‡ El cid, el campeador ^talk 12:56, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Recent edits re World War II

Strattonsmith please review WP:FAOWN and WP:WIAFA, and gain consensus for your edits. Some of your edits are not improvements, and this content has been reverted, rightfully so. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:43, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Strattonsmith please have a look at MOS:OVERLINK. Also, this article uses UK and US, not U.K. or U.S. [2] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:37, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

See MOS:US. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:41, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Operation Unicorn

The part under the Queen's death mentioning Operation London Bridge is incorrect. Since she died it Scotland, it is known as Operation Unicorn. Operation London Bridge will launch when the Queen's body is transferred to England.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/queen-elizabeth-operation-unicorn-scotland-b2162764.html

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/08/operation-unicorn-plans-if-queen-dies-scotland 50.218.31.202 (talk) 18:09, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Queen dying in Scotland does not have anything to do with the planned name of the operation (signed by User:IssacT6) 18:21, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

A featured article has something unsourced? For shame! We do not approve.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 19:24, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

@IssacT6: I believe there is some confusion. As mentioned by the IP editor, there are two operations now. The more notable one is Operation London Bridge which involves her death. There is also Operation Unicorn. Per the Guardian, "Operation Unicorn, the codename for the plans in Scotland, leaked some time ago and indicated it is likely her coffin will temporarily rest at the Palace of Holyroodhouse, having been taken there by road two days after her death." Per the Agence France-Presse: (1, 2) "It is no secret that the UK's plan for the eventual death of Queen Elizabeth II was codenamed London Bridge. But there were special provisions if the monarch died when she was in Scotland, called Operation Unicorn."

There is some confusion on my end about how both function together, but it is clear to me that Operation Unicorn is currently active until the Queen is transported to England. --Super Goku V (talk) 20:19, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Again, regardless of what it is called, it is unsourced in a featured article.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 15:51, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

@Vchimpanzee: Late because of not getting a notification, but I did put a few sources in my reply that could have been used to source it. --Super Goku V (talk) 22:21, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Can you put those sources in the article? It's still unsourced.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 22:51, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Ah, I did not notice that it was so in the article. Apologies for the assumption. I have added the sources to the article. --Super Goku V (talk) 23:11, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Thnaks. I wasn't sure whether doing it myself would accomplish anything, since I didn't know for sure what was supposed to be there and what the sources supported.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 15:37, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Ah, gotcha. Now I understand. Sorry for the trouble. --Super Goku V (talk) 19:19, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Infobox image decision

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

See Talk:Elizabeth_II/Archive_45#Infobox photograph for after her death. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:08, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

• 
  Option 1: Official portrait in full, retouched
• 
  Option 2: Official portrait (cropped), retouched
• 
  Option 3: Official portrait (cropped w/3:4 ratio), retouched

Following through on closure decision above, please vote below via numbered lists. U-Mos (talk) 09:19, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Would we be allowed to vote for more than one option like with the now-closed vote immediately above? TheScrubby (talk) 09:36, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't think that would be helpful. U-Mos (talk) 10:14, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Amakuru GuardianH VNC200 4me689 St.doggo FrederalBacon TDKR Chicago 101 PD Rivers schetm Lomu KH Idiosincrático nagualdesign, notifying everyone who voted on the closed identical poll above but hasn't commented here that the poll is being rerun--Llewee (talk) 10:41, 13 September 2022 (UTC) Also GoodDay--Llewee (talk) 10:47, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

@Llewee: I don't really care between these images presented they're all much the same. My choice above was for the recent image (option 1), and I have no idea why that discussion was shut down. !Votes were running at 6 for option 1 and 10 for option 2 at the time of closure , which is hardly consensus. The above should be reopened and allowed to run its course. Failing that, just do whatever you want, the process here is clearly broken.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:16, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I also feel that discussion was shut down out of process.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:18, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I won't object then if someone re-opens it, but good luck to the closer who has to sort then the mess it makes of the original RFC. The logical RFC would have been to first ask if more than one image is an option, and next choose the two only if that RFC succeeded. The way both of these RFCs are it was framed, it's hard to see that we'd be left with anything useful. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:19, 13 September 2022 (UTC) Corrected, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:27, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Most people either wanted this Portrait or the old photo that was on prior to the Queen's Death. I personally believe we should open up a new discussion for which of the 2 images people prefer Pepper Gaming (talk) 13:20, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

• Given the messiness of the RFC, I thought the close was pretty solid. (Wasn't my choice of photo, but there does seem to be consensus). Picking one of the three here shouldn't be that controversial. All and all, I've seen post-death RFCs do worse. A new RFC can be started any time (hopefully after 90 days...), if there is a change of mind. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 13:23, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

  I don't disagree, and have corrected (after three edit conflicts) my post above which referred to the second RFC, closed oddly by Aoi in a way that editors continued responding anyway, and which asked if two images could be used, and then proceeded without having an answer to that question. I see nothing wrong with the close of the first RFC, or in proceeding as suggested in that close (which isn't what the second of the three RFCs was doing). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:31, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

  The aforementioned messiness is exactly why the subsequent RfC was necessary. The original one proposed about 20 different images, with the status quo strangely labelled as "option F". What was needed was a straight choice between the status quo and the proposed alternative, which it seemed like the latter RFC was doing until yourself and Aoi prematurely shut it down. If it's that straight choice, and the community still says change the status quo, then I would accept that, but it's far from clear that's the way the discussion was going. Incidentally I wouldn't be averse to using two images either. That would seem to satisfy both camps.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:19, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

To be fair to Aoi and SandyGeorgia, that second RfC was opened before the first RfC had even been closed, and therefore was opened during an ongoing RfC on the same subject and without consideration given to the closing comment of the first RfC (which of course was impossible given that the second RfC itself was opened prematurely). Alduin2000 (talk) 14:24, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Correct (and thus was disruptive ... but besides that, Aoi had closed it in a way that didn't close it). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:27, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Aoi shut it down in a way that didn't work, so I archive top/bottomed the whole thing. Undiscussed RFCs rarely produce anything useful (or better stated, often leave us stuck with worthless conclusions, as happened at the J. K. Rowling RFC of 2021), and it would have been optimal to first figure out what the second RFC was doing ... that is, if there was some support for two images, then launch an RFC that more clearly honed in on that question. In the interim, the original RFC was closed, and the third RFC seems to be following the path recommended by the close. But it sure would be nice if editors discussed how to frame RFCs before launching them; the mess that J. K. Rowling was stuck with for at least a year because people weighed in on RFC content for the lead that wasn't ever supported by sources is fresh in my mind. But again, if someone feels like my archive above should be undone, and can find a way to sort the mess created, I won't object. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:26, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

OK, in that case let's proceed with the "should there be two images" RFC. I'll happily vote yes to that. This current discussion is a waste of time, given that one of the images has already been put up in the article and we haven't resolved the more fundamental question of whether to allow two images yet. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 14:30, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

If I follow right, it seems like what people want is a poll of two or three options: a 'younger' photo (option C cropped 3:4), an 'older' photo (current and option D had joint support, going with current probably simpler), and potentially an option of showing both. Is that right? ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 14:32, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't object :) But I'd rather see a new RFC run a month of so after the funeral and the traffic here subsides. I haven't weighed in on any RFC, as I've been trying to maintain order on a very busy talk page to get us through TFA day, so don't think I should enter opinions, but again, I think these RFCs are a repeat of the J. K. Rowling RFC debacle, where everyone with a keyboard had an opinion, and not all were carefully considered. I suggest an RFC three months from now would return a very different image than what we've got now, and continuously running RFCs now is not the best use of what will be a very busy talk page for the next few weeks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:35, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

For example, this talk page now is at 200KB, and I can't see any way to keep it manageable, knowing the page will balloon again on 19 Sept, other than to archive the (first, lengthy) RFC leaving a prominent link back to it. Not sure that is a good idea, and not sure what to do, but we've got a 200KB talk page when TFA day is still a week away. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:41, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: This is getting off-topic, but here is my thoughts. 'RfC on popularity and support for the monarchy claims in the lead' looks like it can be closed through Wikipedia:Closure requests given that it started on July 22nd. Three of the first five sections have not had a reply in five days and could potentially be archived. The Featured Article discussion should be archivable as the only discussion currently active at TFA that I can see is about the picture to use on the 19th. The Redirects for discussion sections could be archived when those discussions end. Finally, auto-archive set to four or five days might do some good. --Super Goku V (talk) 22:51, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I oppose all of those options. We should stick to using the 2015 image. GoodDay (talk) 19:52, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

I second this option. I'll open another discussion to get consensus on which of the two photos we should use Pepper Gaming (talk) 22:05, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Option 1

1. Please read this before voting. This is the official portrait. It's a historical photograph in full and it would be a disservice to our readers to crop it. The composition was chosen by the photographer, authorized by the Canadian government and endorsed by the Queen herself. The red and gold curtains, which some say are "distracting", were likely chosen because they are the colours of Canada in Canadian heraldry (the colours of maple leaves), with the azure background being representative of Canada's French ancestry. I only learned this because the photograph piqued my interest. Anyone know anything about that beautiful chair yet or shall we just crop that too and forget about it? I spent over 6 hours restoring this photograph because it's worth seeing. We should all get to see it in all its glory. Please don't crop it. It's like cropping the Mona Lisa because you think a 3:4 headshot would work better in the article. If you've already voted for one of the cropped images, please change your mind and vote for this one instead. Sincerely, nagualdesign 16:18, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
2. U-Mos (talk) 18:28, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
3. Παραλλάξιος (talk) 20:58, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Option 2

1. For same reasons as above--Llewee (talk) 10:19, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
2. To me this one seems the most well balanced, despite the unusual ratio. FilBenLeafBoy (Let's Talk!) 16:12, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Option 3

1. This one gets my vote; although part of me prefers the fuller length portrait, the stripes either side are a little distracting as an infobox picture (eliminates option 1), and simplying cutting them off results in an aspect ratio that looks off to the eye (eliminates option 2). H. Carver (talk) 10:58, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
2. Best suited for an infobox I think. 2 is overly vertical and the peripheral details in the full picture are distracting (I appreciate the argument about staying faithful to the photographer's intentions but they weren't taking a picture to illustrate an encyclopedia either). Al-Muqanna (talk) 11:27, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
3. It's a tough call, but I pick this because a) at the end of the day, the subject of the article is the most important aspect of a photo and in this one she is most prominent; and b) I am a sucker for good aspect ratios in infobox photos and this one looks the best on that basis. All are fair options, though. ‡ El cid, el campeador ^talk 12:36, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
4. (edit conflict) Same reasoning as H. Carver; the stripes on the sides of option 1 are distracting, and option 2 has a weird aspect ratio. — Ingenuity (talk • contribs) 12:37, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
5. 4me689 12:56, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
6. FrederalBacon (talk) 13:43, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
7. Sea Cow (talk) 15:18, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
8. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 15:54, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
9. for this purpose (yes, 1 is more historic, and 2 has better proportions) Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:22, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
10. Better version. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 19:11, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
11. TheScrubby (talk) 20:31, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
12. Best for the infobox, and best as a personal portrait (vs a picture of clothing, furniture, and wall). Thparkth (talk) 21:14, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
13. Good as the infobox is about the queen, not about the visit to Canada. The story about the picture is worth telling on another page. It can show the full photo in greater detail, both historic original and restored version, describe the visit to Canada, the meaning of the red and gold curtains, the chair, the photographer. Uwappa (talk) 04:33, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
14. Easy choice. Idiosincrático (talk) 09:55, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
15. Tweedle (talk) 11:19, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
16. It's obvious why editors prefer the third option. While I appreciate User NagualDesign's concerns about showing the unedited photo, it is simply a fact that with limited pixels available, the most closely cropped image shows the most detail for the most important part of the image (e.g., the Queen, not the chair). All that said, my vote cast here can be considered as an extremely weak preference - literally any of these images, or almost any other image of the Queen hosted on Wikimedia, would serve just fine. I'm almost tempted to put my vote in for Option 1, just because of User NagualDesign's passionate case, but that wouldn't be my honest opinion. Joe (talk) 21:34, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
17. I generally dislike the photo (she looks like a waxy 1950s automaton) but we really don't need to see her lower body or the chair, so option 3 is best. Firebrace (talk) 19:23, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
18. I'll give my support for this version. I think it's the most fitting so far. It also removes some unnecessary details. --KingErikII (Talk page) 20:22, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
19. I prefer this option Sanctaria (talk) 23:14, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
20. Going with this option because it shows her face the most. It's not like she is a model or something where her waist is necessary. And taking a look at other features that are cropped out, the frame and lower half of her dress isn't really necessary for representing herself as a whole, imo. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 03:07, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

• And also, while I see points that this is a photo of her in Canada, most people who want to see a photo of Elizabeth II would probably less recognize her for just being in Canada. From the original retouched photo alone, most people wouldn't recognize the setting of her in Canada. Since she seems to be noteworthy for events other than just Canada, that is why I think Option 3 is best among the three. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 03:13, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

  More than likely, some, of not all, of the medals and ribbons are Canada specific, as those were typically specific to each country, and if the rest of the photo was Canada themed, I would imagine the medals would be as well. However, considering the fact that discernment would require extensive knowledge of the nuances of royal regalia throughout the realm, I don't think it takes away from the picture at all. FrederalBacon (talk) 01:42, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

  Nothing the Queen is wearing looks Canada-specific to me. The tiara is the Vladimir Tiara, one of her favourites that she wore often. The blue riband and the silver star are regalia for the Order of the Garter. And the two ribbons are Royal Family Orders, the pink for George VI and the blue for George V. H. Carver (talk) 11:56, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

should we put old version of her?

• hello there, i think we should do that. because what is the purpose of putting young version of her? is wikipedia belongs to them? no... most poeple on earth know her as old version of her. so we should put old version of him......... ----modern_primat ඞඞඞ ^TALK 17:37, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, restore the 2015 image. She's most notable for her long life & long reign. Also, we can avoid any disputes over which country's awards/medals she's wearing. GoodDay (talk) 17:45, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

I quite like the 1959 photograph. I do not think it will hurt our readers to be reminded that she was not always old and frail. Surtsicna (talk) 17:52, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

your comment can work reverse sir. most people know her as old. not young. ----modern_primat ඞඞඞ ^TALK 19:04, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

I also support using the 2015 version. The 2015 version is more reflective of who she was, and what most people would remember her as looking. Googling "the queen" reflects this stance. More recognisable as to who it is than the one compared to one taken 63 years ago. 82.23.20.168 (talk) 23:10, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

2012 version would be fine aswell. File:Queen Elizabeth II 2012 headshot.jpg LightGuess (talk) 18:32, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Just to say that I don't believe there's any dispute over what she's wearing in the 1959 picture that's currently used in the infobox - I identified all the regalia in a comment just a little above of here and nothing is out of the ordinary of Canada specific (compared to, say, the NZ portrait where she's clearly wearing a fern brooch). H. Carver (talk) 07:52, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Exactly, great point, it feels truely neutral, 1959 is good, but there will be dispute soon over what she is wearing. LightGuess (talk) 18:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

This has been hashed and rehashed and rehashed repeatedly within the last 10 days. The last one was specifically closed as a rehash of the above discussion. The consensus was for C, but people are repeatedly expressing their desire for the old image, and trying to subvert the above consensus by holding a new discussion just days after the first one closed. Can we just stop? F didn't even have the second most support, and people still refuse to accept consensus has changed away from using that image. FrederalBacon (talk) 23:47, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

When she was alive, there were many attempts (since 2015) mostly by IPs, to change the 2015 image. After a month or so, traffic on this page will slow down & there'll be less calls for image changes. GoodDay (talk) 23:56, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

there is no harm to discuss ----modern_primat ඞඞඞ ^TALK 12:12, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm personally of the opinion that we should show both pictures in the topmost infobox. Lots of people like this picture (understandably, it's a nice picture) but the old 2015 picture depicts the best-known 'incarnation' of the Queen, and I think there is something maybe a tad misleading about showing a younger image of her. When I look at the various discussions, it's clear that there's a lot of support for both pictures, so we should have both. Joe (talk) 05:45, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree LightGuess (talk) 18:28, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Your the reason why wikipedia is gonna shut down in 10 years due to lack of new authors, it is people like you who make new editors drive away from wikipedia. Be a bit nicer, please. LightGuess (talk) 18:33, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

THis is to @Frederalbacon LightGuess (talk) 18:34, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Media depiction and public opinion

I think the following sentence should be removed from the article "After the trauma of the Second World War, it was a time of hope, a period of progress and achievement heralding a "new Elizabethan age".".

It sounds like FLUFF, and doesn't adds anything to the article. Uwsi (talk) 02:09, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

The assertion is sourced and absolutely adds something to the article, by describing how the post-war period was experienced by the public, which certainly fits within the objective of the "Media depiction and public opinion" section.  Ved havet 🌊 (talk)  02:54, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

post-1997 criticism

The lede's mention of criticism of QEII stops at 1997. What about her stances on Andrew and Harry/Meghan? What about the recent revelations that the royals were able to quietly veto legislation affecting them? Dawud (talk) 22:06, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Your points are valid Dawud and such critique should be included. Could you provide suggestions on verbiage and links to sources to support the changes you would like to see? Jurisdicta (talk) 02:39, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Articles for deletion/Reign of Elizabeth II

Please note discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reign of Elizabeth II. DeCausa (talk) 22:05, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Edit request

I suggest that "attaining the oldest age of any British monarch (96), and having the longest reign" be changed to "attaining the oldest age (96) and the longest reign (70 years) that any British monarch has had." This edit would make the sentence flow better. It would also add a small amount of additional information. Birdsinthewindow (talk) 01:09, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Fashion of Elizabeth II

Can anyone help in contributing to this draft? Thanks. Peter Ormond 💬 20:20, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Edited, thanks for the link! Birdsinthewindow (talk) 01:50, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

More mention of media criticism needed in the lead

For the lead to be a bit more accurate, I think mention of post-1997 media criticism is needed, because the media criticism of the family didn't stop at Diana's death. All that's required is an additional sentence saying something along the lines of:

"She faced further occasional republican sentiment and media criticism after scandals emerged involving several members of her family, including Andrew and her grandson Prince Harry." 88.108.44.8 (talk) 08:48, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I think that was discussed at some point and rejected because sources for linking Andrew and Harry with any increase in republican sentiment were lacking. DrKay (talk) 08:54, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Good point, although it would be good to mention in some capacity as the media criticism did not stop at Diana's death. Maybe leave out the mention of republican sentiment and just say:

"She faced further occasional media criticism after scandals emerged involving several members of her family, including Andrew and her grandson Prince Harry."

This could work better. --88.108.44.8 (talk) 09:02, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Prime ministers

Add list of prime ministers link link 170.52.112.145 (talk) 23:56, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

No, too long. GoodDay (talk) 00:10, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

why do none of the british monarch infoboxes seem to have a list of PMs? most articles for other monarchs do, and its easy to make the list shrinkable. see Margrethe II of Denmark. SilverRobinson (talk) 04:37, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Because even a list reduced to 180 people by excluding territories and dependencies is too long. I see the list at Margarethe doesn't even exclude territories and dependencies, so a similar list for Elizabeth II would be hundreds of people. DrKay (talk) 05:48, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

70 years, 16+ realms with PMs, new PMs every 2-5 years...we could make a whole article just listing the PMs that served under her in all the realms FrederalBacon (talk) 21:21, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

It's already made: List of prime ministers of Elizabeth II. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 21:54, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Well hey, look at that, why don't we just link that in the infobox if people really want PMs included? FrederalBacon (talk) 22:04, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Infobox to long?

Should we simplify the infobox to how it is for King Charles III? That way we don’t have to list out all the countries she was there monarch for? BigRed606 (talk) 23:50, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

No we can't. The number of the Commonwealth realms (not the Commonwealth of Nations) hasn't changed since Charles has become king. For her, it dropped from 32 to 15. Keivan.f^Talk 00:22, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

But don’t you think it’s a bit too long? BigRed606 (talk) 04:04, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

It's not too long & has a collapsible mechanism. GoodDay (talk) 04:09, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

On mobile, it does not show up as collapsed and does appear unwieldy. I would support removing it from the infobox and rather linking to the section in the text, but that is unlikely to gain support. ‡ El cid, el campeador ^talk 16:20, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Don't use your mobile. Use a computer. GoodDay (talk) 16:43, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

I tried using Template:Collapse-mobile to fix it, but it interfered with the desktop version a bit. I am unsure how to fix it so that both mobile and desktop are fine. Super Goku V (talk) 22:50, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

I've removed it and linked "other Commonwealth realms" to List of sovereign states headed by Elizabeth II. I copied the table's code however and adapted it into {{Elizabeth II/realms}}. I haven't added it to this article but instead to Reign of Elizabeth II, which may or may not be deleted soon. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 01:36, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I've reverted your major change. The mechanism used, has been in place for years. Linking to a monarch's styles, also seems inaccurate. The list is for the non-UK Commonwealth realms. GoodDay (talk) 02:00, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

It's collapsed by default, so most readers wouldn't notice. I don't understand why all the realms have to be listed when we have a standalone article exactly for that purpose. Per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored, with exceptions noted below). The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 02:04, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

It's been that way for years, because some realms came into existence, while others became republics, during her reign. PS - Why do you suddenly get to change all of that, without getting a consensus for it? GoodDay (talk) 02:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

mobile view nightmare that has been brought up a few times..... at least we finally have a full paragraph for the lead opening before we have a scrolling nightmare that causes people to leave the article. Moxy- 02:36, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

If we keep "Queen of the United Kingdom and the other Commonwealth realms", in the page intro & in the infobox? Then, I guess the sudden removal of the collapse mechanism, is acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 02:43, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Title

Elizabeth II, despite passing away on 8 September 2022 is still Her Majesty the Queen. Her title is incumbent and the British people still know her as the Queen and she is the only person to have the title as of now. Camilla has another title. The Queen is still HM the Queen so the title part should be amended to show 'Her Majesty the Queen : 02 February 1952- present. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2a00:23c7:6482:aa01:a8f0:e40a:a04d:1dbf (talk) 19:19, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Not sure what you're requesting. GoodDay (talk) 19:20, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

I would think it would be "her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second", as in the proclamation issued by King Charles regarding tomorrow's bank holiday . Wehwalt (talk) 19:41, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

To paraphrase The Matrix, can't be the queen if she's dead. If you have robust sources for what "the British people still know her as" we can note those, but it's certainly not the sort of thing we should be stating in wikivoice. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 23:21, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Mau Mau rebellion

This information was removed, with the following edit summary: "rv, no showing there's any connection between the rebellion and Elizabeth other than coincidence of time." Your thoughts?

The Mau Mau rebellion, a revolt against British colonial rule in Kenya, started in 1952—the year Elizabeth ascended the throne.

References

--Tobby72 (talk) 15:08, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

So how does the fact that the Mau Mau rebellion began in 1952 help the reader understand Elizabeth II?--Wehwalt (talk) 15:25, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Did the rebellion actually have anything to do with Queen Elizabeth ascending the throne? And if so, do you have a source on in what way?  Ved havet 🌊 (talk)  18:42, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

I would say, in a general sense, we should have more on the legacy of the Queen now that she's gone. The sources cited above speak to that (not necessarily the Mau Mau uprising itself). We have "Public perception and character" but I think we need more a legacy section as seen in other similar articles, and that should include some of the recent criticism around the rejection of the monarchy by certain countries/groups, as well as the extensive praise she's received. Another option would be repurposing Personality and image of Elizabeth II into a more general 'legacy/reception' of the Queen type article. ‡ El cid, el campeador ^talk 18:48, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

El cid, el campeador There will need to be a legacy section added to this article at some point and it may useful to start a fuller discussion on what it should include once things settle down a bit.--Llewee (talk) 20:54, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

@Wehwalt@Ved havet@Tobby72@El cid, el campeador@Llewee I have a reference which relates Mau Mau rebellion with the Queen https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/10/africa/colonialism-africa-queen-elizabeth-intl/index.html.(Ravi Dwivedi (talk) 21:17, 14 September 2022 (UTC))

That was the one that is cited above, isn't it? The only mention of Mau Mau is that it started the same year Elizabeth became Queen. Wehwalt (talk) 21:20, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Now I see the same reference was already put by the OP. (Ravi Dwivedi (talk) 21:21, 14 September 2022 (UTC))

Enough for what? Just saying that the Mau Mau rebellion started the same year she came to the throne says nothing about her to the reader. Wehwalt (talk) 21:24, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

@Wehwalt I commented before you replied, and so I have removed my line asking if it is enough.(Ravi Dwivedi (talk) 21:29, 14 September 2022 (UTC))

• How can the head of state not be connected to the action of said state? People's desire to whitewash the article is apparently overcoming their common sense... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:08, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

  Readily. If you want to criticise the politics of modern-day Germany, for example, you'd want to blame Olaf Scholz, not Frank-Walter Steinmeier. Also, please WP:AGF, rather than attributing speculatively malicious motives to other editors. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 23:34, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Should we list Scotland in place of death field of infobox?

Please change deathplace of queen from Aberdeenshire, “United Kingdom” to “Scotland”. 2001:56A:F803:8F00:4DDE:3E4D:64B5:D692 (talk) 21:49, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

No thank you. Pyraminxsolver (talk) 21:52, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

I think it should be "Aberdeenshire, Scotland, United Kingdom" Octagon758 (talk) 22:40, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Too long winded. Best to you "place, sovereign state". GoodDay (talk) 00:20, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

You mean as we do with 'Mayfair, London, United Kingdom'? There's no set rules here. It does seem a little long, though pragmatically it'd still fit in three lines (no doubt depending on any number of settings). Maybe an enlightened compromise would be to keep the infobox as is, but say "Aberdeenshire, Scotland" in the final paragraph of the lead section. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 00:26, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Balmoral Castle is already there, with Aberdeenshire, United Kingdom. GoodDay (talk) 00:34, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't believe that's responsive to the edit actually suggested. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 00:51, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

We're not showing England, so why show Scotland? GoodDay (talk) 00:53, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Looking at a handful of selected biographies from the English (1, 2, 3), Scottish (1, 2, 3), Welsh (1, 2, 3), and Northern Irish (1, 2, 3) portals, it seems that the majority do not mention the United Kingdom at all, and stop at the constituent countries. I find it odd that only some royal biographies deviate from this convention. Thrakkx (talk) 19:57, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

For the royal bios, 1707–1800 (GB) & post-1800 (UK), they should use the "sovereign state". GoodDay (talk) 20:15, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

(Disclosure: I am Scottish.) This kind of question inevitably arises when there is political/popular controversy about identity in a particular place and time. I hope we can discuss this here without going all "tribal warfare". Having said that, majority of people in Scotland consider "Scottish" to be their only national identify, and my gut feeling is that if you asked the average English person "What country is Balmoral in?" they would probably answer "Scotland" not "the United Kingdom". Furthermore that "Scottishness" of Balmoral is an essential and defining characteristic, and one that had political and practical consequences for the process followed after the Queen's death. All this to say, I think "Scotland" (alone) would be the correct country name to use if the article were entirely for the consumption of a British Isles audience. Since that is not the case, I favour "Aberdeenshire, Scotland, United Kingdom" (even though this will annoy many of my fellow Scots). Thparkth (talk) 20:33, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Surely "Aberdeenshire, Scotland, United Kingdom, World, Milky Way, Universe". What a waste of time. This is why we have wikilinks - so we don't have to get bogged down in editor sensitivities and POV because it's got nothing to do with reader needs or being an encyclopedia. Balmoral, or Balmoral, Aberdeenshire (at most) is all that's needed. Sheesh. DeCausa (talk) 20:41, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

"Because wikilinks" is a terrible stylistic (if one could even so call it) standard to apply. In the first place the text should still read objectively reasonably without them, and in the second, another prominent brand of "editor sensitivities and POV" (alongside a dogged insistence on removing constituent country names) is to see a "sea of blue" and start whimsically removing them, too. For comparison, the Britannica, also with recourse to links to other articles, and with a vastly less bloaty lead section and infobox than Wikipedia's amateur-hour effort, mentions Scotland in both. And they, following Johnson's advice, are after all just doing it for the cash. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 00:53, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

We'll stick with using "United Kingdom". GoodDay (talk) 01:16, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Then should it be considered that George VI, Edward VIII, George V, and other predecessors be changed to using United Kingdom for the sake of consistency? --Super Goku V (talk) 02:32, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes. GoodDay (talk) 02:34, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

No. WP:UKNATIONALS exists. John (talk) 09:14, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Isn't that about nationality of persons? This thread about location. DeCausa (talk) 09:19, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

They're pretty closely connected. I was thinking of "It is not possible to create a uniforming guideline, when such strong disagreement exists on the relative importance of the labels. Re-labelling nationalities on grounds of consistency—making every UK citizen "British", or converting each of those labelled "British" into their constituent nationalities—is strongly discouraged. Such imposed uniformity cannot, in any case, be sustained." That's good advice. John (talk) 09:22, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree they're related, and the keystones should be following the sources, and assisting the reader, rather than some sort of Iron Law of sovereign states. And the sources really put considerable weight on the 'sovereign strategically dies in Scotland' angle. However, I think it would be more helpful to mention the constituent country at an appropriate place in the lead section, especially if it's a matter of one or the other. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 23:28, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Last time I checked, Scotland was not independent at the time of Elizabeth II's death. We use the sovereign state (or at least should) for birth/death places of the royals. GoodDay (talk) 23:32, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

That being said, I've noticed that we do have inconsistencies on this topic, across the British monarchs pages, from Anne to Charles III. I suspect there are also inconsistencies on this matter, in the bios of English, Scottish, Welsh & Irish monarchs. Maybe an RFC on what to include/exclude for birth/death places, in royal bios of the British Isles, is required. GoodDay (talk) 23:41, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Changing the name

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My fellow Wikipedian users good evening/morning sir/ma'am do you want to change the name of Elizabeth II to Elizabeth the Great? For me no vote under this talk masseage. Einahr (talk) 13:19, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

No. I'd rather keep the current name. There was already an Elizabeth, and she was the second queen that was named "Elizabeth" (other then Elizabeth I). Also, would "the Great" be for a king, not a queen? But I think it would be better to keep the current name. MasterWolf0928-Æthelwulf (talk) 15:42, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

We don't even mention the attempts to astroturf this title, hitherto actually used in reference to Elizabeth I and Elizabeth of Russia -- though it's of such limited notability that those articles don't use it either. Absolutely no possibility this is the common name for Liz2, or otherwise a viable article title, I'm afraid. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 17:33, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

There are now three threads on this, which has no chance of ... anything. Please stop bringing it up, and those who want to might add to one of the existing threads, rather than creating a fourth. This, and the image issue, are detracting from worthy improvements. There are not even remotely enough high quality sources using "Elizabeth the Great" for it to even be considered. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:18, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Absolutely not. GoodDay (talk) 00:53, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

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Elizabeth the Great (2)

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https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1670801/queen-elizabeth-ii-elizabeth-the-great-royal-family/amp

https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2022-09-16/elizabeth-the-great-queens-lifelong-friend-suggests-epitaph

https://www.wsfp.co.uk/news/west-somerset-mps-moving-tribute-to-elizabeth-the-great-564264

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2022/09/08/boris-johnsons-emotional-tribute-queen-elizabeth-ii/ ChefBear01 (talk) 06:50, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

No. GoodDay (talk) 00:54, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

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Elizabeth the Great

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should the above page link -- either as a redirect or a DAB entry -- link here? At present it doesn't, according to an editor's interpretation of WP:DABMENTION. Related question: should that be mentioned in this article? It's occurred a number of times as a descriptor, but there may be a large element of WP:RECENTISM to those. (Belated notification here due to talk-page protection; note there's also a deletion discussion concerning it, which in the way of these thinks have somewhat turned into a discussion about its contents.) 109.255.211.6 (talk) 00:20, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

No & furthermore, it should be entirely deleted. GoodDay (talk) 00:22, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Agree with GoodDay, that needs a delete, it’s literally the exact same list of everyone named Elizabeth who ruled as queen regnant…all two of them FrederalBacon (talk) 00:23, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Which is more of a content issue than an existential one. Factoring out recentism, it should probably either be a redirect to Liz1, or else a DAB between her and Elizabeth of Russia, both of whom were described as such in multiple reliable sources more than five minutes ago, albeit none of the articles on the subjects themselves seem to deem it sufficiently notable. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 04:40, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

On the AfD, I suggested it just redirect to the book of the same name. Can't link to Liz I or Liz II IMO since it doesn't mention the phrase at all on either article. FrederalBacon (talk) 04:49, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Both/all could, neither/any do. It's not ideal, but equally neither is a "surprise direct" to Elizabeth Jenkins for people looking for Liz 2 on the basis of recent obits using that terms, or thinking to themselves "wait, wasn't that <some other queen/tsarina>?" Or worse, stonewalling them entirely with a hole where the page used to be. A low-grade DAB that at least gives a little context for the different possible eventual destinations seems like the least-worst option. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 05:00, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I have added sources in the Elizabeth the Great (2) section (in reference to Queen Elizabeth II), I do understand that it is still very recent, and there is a debate on whether she should be an alternative used, but Elizabeth the Great has the most support and seems to be used more. It is a matter of consensus as to whether it should be added or whether to wait to see how things evolve over time. ChefBear01 (talk) 09:27, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

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Photograph in infobox after death.

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See Talk:Elizabeth II/Archive 45#Infobox photograph for after her death SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:02, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

I have seen various images of Queen Elizabeth II. But, according to my opinion,

is the best option among all the images to use. The main reason is that it is the latest image of the Queen and one should always use the latest image of the Queen in an infobox, not an old one, for proper identification. So, I request you to again conduct a poll on all the images and to choose a better image. Thanks & Regards. VNC200 (talk) 04:23, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I'd be happy with this image, but the old image we were using

is also a good candidate. I note that the consensus for the image currently being used was heavily split between several options, so it may make sense for us to use more than one image in the topmost infobox. Perhaps the one we are already using as well as one like either of these that shows the queen as she was in more recent years. There's no reason why we can't use both. Joe (talk) 05:53, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I believe it would be good to insert those two images into the article, but also believe that she is quite recognizable on the early image. I think more than one image in the infobox is not a good idea, and especially not one a portrait but not the other. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:02, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

lets discuss this in a month or something. LightGuess (talk) 18:35, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

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Citation formatting

Resolved: The established citation style has been CS2 since September 2019. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:18, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Neveselbert Seriously? Was there any discussion of this? Could people please understand this is a highly viewed, highly edited WP:FA, that many people are working on, and not make unilateral changes that others might find make the article harder to work on? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:50, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Also, looking at a series of other recent edits, could people please slow down and have a WP:CITEVAR discussion, rather than conversing about citation style via edit summary? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:54, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Sorry but what seems to be the problem? All I did was space out the parameters to make the code easier to view, and potentially edit, for editors, as well as adding |mode=cs2 to match the citation format used throughout the article. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 03:56, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

The problem is, you're not seeking consensus for the changes that you're making. GoodDay (talk) 04:11, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

There is consensus to use WP:CS2 formatting so I merely implemented that consensus. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 04:28, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

First, where is the consensus for which style (I'm genuinely asking because this talk page is such a mess)? Second, maybe you think spreading the citations out makes them easier to read; have you asked others? I personally hate it, but I'm not the one who will be left maintaining this article after everyone else moves along, and it seems they should be given a chance to weigh in.

The article has issues that need to be corrected, and we have instead people messing with images and citation style, which are things that can be corrected when the editing pace slows down. These kinds of changes aren't really helping at this point, and are occurring at an unnecessary pace. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:32, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

The consensus is described at {{Editnotices/Page/Elizabeth II}} as "a consistent citation style", which on UK monarchy-related articles tends to be CS2 with {{citation}} (why exactly I'm not sure but I'm willing to go along with it). Per Waldyrious/formatcitations.js, that's the intended purpose ("for readability"), but I accept some may see this "spreading" as unhelpful so I've harmonised the whitespace to just one space instead. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 04:52, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Re the edit notice wording; if memory serves I wrote it myself long ago, at the talk page of FAC in consultation with others, and it's been adopted for many FAs, so it's quite familiar to me. It doesn't say which citation style we are using on this article, nor does it or did it ever pretend to. Perhaps DrKay, as one of the FA authors, could tell us what citation style is in use here, and perhaps you'll all slow down until he does, because trying to correct text when you have to revert non-consensual citation changes will be a nightmare. The version that passed FAC did not have Citation templates, rather cite templates; when did citation creep in? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:01, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Keivan.f here is the version of this article that passed FAC; it uses cite, not citation templates. Where did you get the idea that this article uses the citation template? It's a very busy talk page, and I may have missed it; please slow down until consensus is determined here, and use the talk page, rather than edit summaries, to establish that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:07, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia Regardless of when it was introduced to the main article, it has been in use long before "cite web" popped up and has been the common format used on the pages about her ancestors. Even before my edit, there were roughly 140 sources using this template, compared to only 20 that were using "cite web". So, for the sake of consistency, I made the necessary change and turned them to "citation". Now if you prefer the original format that was in use when the page became a FA, you're welcome to put it forward for discussion and seek consensus. Keivan.f^Talk 05:19, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Please have a look at WP:CITEVAR and wait for DrKay, the FA nominator, to fill in the blanks of how, when or if the citation style was changed between when the article was promoted and now. When it was promoted, there were clearly no citation templates, rather cite. If it hasn't changed by consensus (I can't say, too many archives to go through), it is the one making the change who needs to seek consensus, which appears on the surface to be you. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:51, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

PS, what is used on her ancestors' pages isn't relevant for CITEVAR purposes here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:52, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

In the version immediately before the health announcement[3], there was only one cite template, all the others were citation, and that single instance of a cite template was a recent insertion[4] (in the preceding 24 hours). This is my fault as there were cs1 errors at one time that were resolved by switching to cs2[5]. Those of you with the right scripts installed will see that there were cs1 errors marked in red before the switch, and no ref errors after it. It was the easiest way for me to resolve all the errors in one go. DrKay (talk) 07:12, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Thx, DrKay! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:05, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 September 2022 (2)

Angelzaed (talk) 01:25, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Buried September 19, 2022

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 14:39, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Her 19 Sep burial is already in the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:24, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 September 2022

Beliefs, activities and interests === Elizabeth rarely gave interviews and little was known of her personal feelings. She did not explicitly express her own political opinions in a public forum, and it is against convention to ask or reveal the monarch's views. When Times journalist Paul Routledge asked Elizabeth for her opinions on the miners' strike of 1984–85, she replied that it was "all about one man" (a reference to Arthur Scargill), with which Routledge disagreed. Widely criticised in the media for asking the question, Routledge said he was not initially due to be present for the royal visit and was unaware of the protocols. After the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, Prime Minister David Cameron stated that Elizabeth was pleased with the outcome. She had arguably issued a public coded statement about the referendum by telling one woman outside Balmoral Kirk that she hoped people would think "very carefully" about the outcome. It emerged later that Cameron had specifically requested that she register her concern.

Elizabeth had a deep sense of religious and civic duty, and took her Coronation Oath seriously. Aside from her official religious role as Supreme Governor of the established Church of England, she worshipped with that church and also the national Church of Scotland. She demonstrated support for inter-faith relations and met with leaders of other churches and religions, including five popes: Pius XII, John XXIII, John Paul II, Benedict XVI and Francis. A personal note about her faith often featured in her annual Christmas Message broadcast to the Commonwealth. In 2000, she said:

To many of us, our beliefs are of fundamental importance. For me the teachings of Christ and my own personal accountability before God provide a framework in which I try to lead my life. I, like so many of you, have drawn great comfort in difficult times from Christ's words and example.

Add this photo: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Queen_Elizabeth_II_in_March_2015.jpg

Elizabeth was patron of more than 600 organisations and charities. The Charities Aid Foundation estimated that Elizabeth helped raise over £1.4 billion for her patronages during her reign. Her main leisure interests included equestrianism and dogs, especially her Pembroke Welsh Corgis. Her lifelong love of corgis began in 1933 with Dookie, the first corgi owned by her family. Scenes of a relaxed, informal home life were occasionally witnessed; she and her family, from time to time, prepared a meal together and washed the dishes afterwards. WeAreRad5561 (talk) 00:59, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 14:41, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

You said you want us to add that image but you didn't say where. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 14:41, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Actually, the edit request seems to have quite clearly said where ... between the Christmas message para and the patron para. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:26, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Ah ok. Still, I'm not sure if the image would be appropriate to add there. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 13:30, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Agree ... no reason to be messing with images at this stage (just cleaning up the talk page to see what's left to do). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:35, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Sources
References

Grandchildren

Should be edited to list William, Prince of Wales first as he is the heir to the throne or at least edited to reflect oldest grandchild first. Harry should not be listed first. 2600:4040:76B3:1D00:FDE3:18E8:5F08:7B9B (talk) 01:40, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Where in the page, are you pointing at? GoodDay (talk) 01:48, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

I cannot see any place where Harry is listed first. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:38, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Infobox pic date

Have a look at some of the images here. The infobox picture also seems to have been taken during the same sitting in December 1958. Peter Ormond 💬 07:34, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Too bad, there's no way we can put in a rotational mechanism, which would change the infobox image once every 24 hrs :) GoodDay (talk) 07:56, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

This would be a great feature, and with how fast technology is advancing it could happen in years to come :) --88.108.44.8 (talk) 08:42, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

{{Random item}} could not be used, as we did for the TFA?--Wehwalt (talk) 14:07, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing. The picture on the TFA changed periodically; no reason why the same can't be done for main articles. Though it is worth keeping the solitary photo on the article because much discussion was devoted to which photo was chosen and why. I can appreciate that style of debate and discussion when it comes to an article's main photograph, and the right call was definitely made in this case. BiscuitsToTheRescue 19:16, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Edit Request: Info Box Photo revisit

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The palace just released a new photo portrait of her majesty which shows her smiling. This new photograph was not available for voting. I propose re opening the discussion and adding said portrait as photo "J." One would not have to search Google long to find it but here is one link: https://akns-images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/2022818/rs_634x1024-220918150932-queen-elizabeth-2.jpg?fit=around%7C634:1024&output-quality=90&crop=634:1024;center,top

While the now current 1959 photo in the info box is a nice one, I really think this new portrait deserves consideration. I respectfully request a recount. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:9000:FF00:8E:2151:8FFF:10A4:5D53 (talk) 05:09, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Images must comply with Wikipedia:Image use policy. What is the copyright status of that image? DrKay (talk) 05:50, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Might just be me, but I don't think that's a great picture for an infobox. I'd personally prefer a more natural, relaxed expression, to give a more accurate depiction of what the subject looked like. FrederalBacon (talk) 06:03, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm not a great fan of the current 1959 official portrait for much the same reason. The Queen has a flat and rather forced look on her face, and there are much more natural photographs showing her with relaxed and warm facial expressions. These are more in tune with the Queen's real personality--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 06:11, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree and miss the 2015 image, it's such an iconic photo of The Queen and feels a lot more natural. Just because she has passed now doesn't necessarily mean we have to use an old photograph for the infobox. The infobox for her mother uses a portrait of her when she was older and known as "The Queen Mother" as opposed to when she was younger and the Queen Consort. Queen Victoria's infobox also does not use a young image of her for the infobox, despite the fact (like Elizabeth II) she was on the throne at a young age too. A similar thing could happen here with this article. I agree with you that the infobox should have a picture where The Queen looks more relaxed and natural. This new portrait would be a great infobox image, it might be from this year, but feels a lot more natural and captures The Queen's personality better. I hope it gets uploaded to Wikicommons so we can include it in a potential re-count. --88.108.44.8 (talk) 08:58, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I think the current picture is perfect partly because of the staid pose. She was always a figurehead above a celebrity; there's no point in us trying to show her real personality when arguably the lack of access to it played a large part of what kept everything in place, public image-wise. Humbledaisy (talk) 19:50, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree with a newer photo as well. A vast majority of the world's population was born after her accession, and speaking from a personal standpoint, we recognize her more in the newer photos where she's older. Moreover, Option C from the original poll is very firm and it doesn't follow MOS:PORTRAIT as well since she faces away from the text. Assuming that the most recent portrait passes the Image Use Policy, I request we put this up for consideration. The best photo to use would be the most recognizable, and more people would recognize a newer image. InvadingInvader (talk) 21:34, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

A vast majority of the world's population was born after her accession And eventually, we will all be dead, but she will still have a biography article on Wikipedia (should the internet still exist). We can't pick a picture of her just because it's how we all knew her. FrederalBacon (talk) 00:11, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

With all due respect, as long as we get facts straight and don't violate NFCC stuff, why not use a most recognizable form of something or someone as his or her or its photo in a general article? Unless we're covering a specific historical form or period of something (like maybe Elizabeth's reign during the Premiership of Thatcher), wouldn't the most recognizable photo help the readers the most? InvadingInvader (talk) 00:17, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

As a former photographer, I'm pretty surprised that the palace would release that picture - it's a very poor portrait technically and extremely unflattering. I can't imagine it will ever be our best available choice. Thparkth (talk) 23:48, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

From what I'm seeing, Wikipedia:Crown copyright so far makes the inclusion of this photo look grim. Unless y'all can lawyer your way through this or we have special permission from the WMF (if we can even get it), I sadly have to say that If we'd want a newer photo, this one couldn't work. I might suggest the one of Elizabeth in New Zealand. If a more historical photo is desired, maybe the coronation? InvadingInvader (talk) 00:12, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, copyright is going to make inclusion of such a photo difficult. Unless if the portrait is in the public domain (which seems unlikely), the most we can probably do is use the official portrait from a while ago. Aasim - Herrscher of Wikis ❄️ 03:14, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I’m not convinced the 1950s image is unrecognisable. The images of the Queen used on notes and coins in the UK and other territories were almost always of her as she was pre-1990s, with dark hair. I think it’s the best image by some way - it is a formal portrait unlike the image we used before her death, she isn’t wearing anything aligned to a particular place or occasion unlike the 2011 image from NZ, and she’s recognisable. Humbledaisy (talk) 10:47, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

British coins had an updated portrait several times, most recently in 2015. British notes did depict a younger woman. The Commonwealth realms did update the coin images from time to time, and also any territories that depicted her on coinage. Wehwalt (talk) 14:05, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Protection level

Just, FYI, I've lowered the protection level from "Require extended confirmed access" to the next-click-down "Require autoconfirmed or confirmed access." It had been rightly-elevated 8 September 2022 amid the frenzy. This is the same level currently held by the Charles III article. This isn't an inherently controversial article (see, e.g., Israel-Palestine) that would be the subject of permanent edit wars. It will, of course, be the sad victim of glory-seeking vandalism, but that's what the milder protection is for. —GoldRingChip 13:48, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

GoldRingChip I'm wondering if you might have waited until the article is off the main page (one more day)? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:55, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: Perhaps you're right‽ I hope our diligence will suffice. —GoldRingChip 14:16, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

GoldRingChip It's been hard to keep up with, so maybe just keep an eye on it for the next few days, in case it needs to go back up ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:26, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: Yes, ok. —GoldRingChip 14:30, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

One autoconfirmed series of edits discussed below (#Multiple issues). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:01, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Constant image swapping

This is a Featured article that has been constantly tended since its promotion, and yet every editor who wanders by seems to feel the need to insert or swap an image. Please discuss and gain consensus for image changes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:34, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

Personally, I find the current image appropriate for the subject as a historical subject of an encyclopedia biography. FrederalBacon (talk) 00:09, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Recommend page protection, until/if a consensus is reached on a 'new' infobox image. GoodDay (talk) 00:23, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I am not talking about the infobox, which is the subject of an RFC (above at #Infobox photograph for after her death) ... I'm referring to the other seemingly random and ongoing image changes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:15, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

What SandyGeorgia said. And a reminder to editors who wander by that edit warring may lead to blocks. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 00:40, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

They should. Keivan.f I am unconcerned to know your reason; I am concerned about the nonchalance with which people are changing images here without discussion, and the edit warring. You were reverted once, and you reinstated without discussion. Not a good thing-- particularly not on an FA. Discuss image changes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:13, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Keep it at the original image prior to all this flip flopping until consensus is reached. InvadingInvader (talk) 03:39, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Repeating post above: I am not talking about the infobox, which is the subject of an RFC (above at #Infobox photograph for after her death) ... I'm referring to the other seemingly random and ongoing image changes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:15, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

To experienced Wikipedians: please understand that when current events impact a high-profile article like this, we draw a lot of attention from new and newish editors. Please view their (possibly misguided) efforts to improve the article in a good light. This is precisely the type of editor that does not read talk pages, and especially not huge ones like this. So, no, I don't agree with the stance I feel is implied here: "these people should know better". Instead we ought to live with these edits (which aren't exactly edit wars) and simply bear it until the interest dies down. The takeaway is: editors need to feel welcomed when they first contribute to Wikipedia. Being told your photo is unwanted and that you should have scoured complicated and, frankly, intimidating-looking "talk" pages is NOT the way to handle new traffic.

Something to keep in mind the next time you (yes you the experienced Wiki veteran) feel frustration over constant and seemingly random changes back and forth over your favorite article. Thank you for reading and best wishes, CapnZapp (talk) 06:37, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Template:Editnotices/Page/Elizabeth II is what every editor sees when they press the edit button for this article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:17, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I think the current image is silly. Everybody in Britain thinks of Queen Elizabeth firstly as she appeared in the latter decades of her life. That is the image of her that immediately comes to mind when one thinks of the late queen in this country. To suddenly change the picture, as soon as she's died, to one of her from the 1950s, appearing to very quickly make her nothing more than a historical character, for which we can now pick a photo from any period, seems totally disrespectful both to Her Late Majesty and to the British people who are reading this.

Pictures of the younger Queen can, of course, appear throughout the article, but the main picture should be of the Queen we all knew and recognised in recent decades. Alan162 (talk) 00:44, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Changes to “Longest female monarch”

Hi guys, I changed the part about the female monarch, but if it isn’t good you can change it. Hieliz. (talk) 19:25, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

We already have that her's was the longest British reign & the second longest reign in World history. That's enough. GoodDay (talk) 19:38, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Hieliz. you have now introduced, and been reverted, the same change three times. That's WP:EDITWARring. If you do it again, you could be blocked. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:52, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

1. 22:29 21 Sept
2. 19:19 22 Sept
3. 19:24 22 Sept

And you did this edit warring even after discussion at #Multiple issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:55, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Multiple issues

There are multiple issues in this series of edits by User:Hieliz., but as Neveselbert has made extensive citation changes after these edits were made, reverting will now be difficult, and they'll need to be manually adjusted.

• recorded -> verified, not an improvement
• Why do we need her burial place in the lead?
• First (new) sentence in Early life Death has grammatical error and wayward space.
• Why was a citation removed?

A revert of the entire series of edits would be in order, but can't do that now because of considerable citation changes (it would so nice if folks would hold off on that until traffic here subsides-- the article will be off the main page in a day, and more settled within a few days). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:56, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi Sandy, I've reverted the changes to the lead. As for my edits, I assumed with the funeral having taken place that traffic would have subsided somewhat; I didn't realise the article remains on the main page. I'll hold off any more reformatting until it's off. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 05:08, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Thx, Neveselbert; not only is it still on the main page, but see the thread just above this one ... the protection was lowered so we may get (did get) edits from editors who might not be familiar with WP:WIAFA and WP:FAOWN. Thx for understanding :) We may still need to repair the other items I raised ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:11, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I think all of this is repaired now, except the time of burial ... I can't find it in the source, and don't know why it was changed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:44, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Do readers really need to know the exact time of burial? GoodDay (talk) 05:51, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't think so :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:58, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Neveselbert I was going to suggest holding off on tweaks until the pageviews drop back to a manageable (historical) range, but I see the pageview tool glitched yesterday, and we didn't get numbers;[6] I hope whatever it was is fixed for tomorrow. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:48, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

OK, I'll keep an eye on the tool over the next few days. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 06:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Change the Death section?

I think the death section should be changed, starting with “Elizabeth died on 8 September 2022 at Balmoral Castle at the age of 96.” and then say the things that happened earlier and keep the rest. Hieliz. (talk) 21:43, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Also it’s okay if not. Hieliz. (talk) 21:45, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Almost any reader will know that Elizabeth is dead, and that is stated in the lead. We don't need to redundantly repeat something that is already in the article at this stage, and will again be repeated at the bottom of the same section. Thanks for discussing first, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

That sounds logical, EXCEPT the lede is meant to summarise the (remainder of the) article proper. There should never be anything in the lede that isn't covered in greater detail below. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:42, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the "age of 96" part should be in the body, since it's also in the lead and the infobox, but as Sandy says, that doesn't mean we have to add a whole new sentence at the top of that section, just inserting the age below would be sufficient.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:11, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Correct. (I had missed that the age part was not in the body.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:09, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

The portrait

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I think it is wise to reinstate the picture of the Queen taken in her later reign and used by Wikipedia until her death. 40.138.165.55 (talk) 20:24, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Can these be hatted please? We do not need a new section every time someone wants to voice an opinion on a matter recently discussed and decided. Surtsicna (talk) 20:48, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, this article is suffering from "change the portrait" fatigue. Perhaps a six-month moratorium would suffice. GoodDay (talk) 20:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC on popularity and support for the monarchy claims in the lead

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should the lead section sentence "However, support for the monarchy in the United Kingdom has been and remains consistently high, as does her personal popularity." be changed to "In the United Kingdom, support for the monarchy remains high but has been declining in recent years. Elizabeth's personal popularity has been and remains consistently high."? (talk) 15:52, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

No sources have been provided to oppose this change nor have the sources I provided been refuted in any way. Three people are either indifferent to or open to changing the sentence, with 2 in some form of opposition.

The material in the article is outdated and an update to it is warranted. There've been no replies here in 3 1/2 days. I'm ending the RfC and applying the change to the lead, with citations. DeaconShotFire (talk) 21:47, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

You don't get to close an RFC you started & then unilaterally make a ruling on it. You wait until the RFC tag expires on 22 August & then seek closure at the proper board. GoodDay (talk) 22:08, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Misread the last 2 rules on the RfC page. Let's have it run its course then. DeaconShotFire (talk) 22:16, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Survey

Note: RFC closer should see Talk:Elizabeth_II/Archive_44#Revert_image_change and six other threads on image below it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:55, 10 September 2022 (UTC)

• Comment While I would agree that the aging of the prior data is a concern, it does look like the most recent is from 2012 (at least according to the lead comment). If such exists, I think more than one more recent data source would be helpful. Has any other source collected more recent polling data on this subject? Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 19:27, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

  https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/three-five-favour-britain-remaining-monarchy-although-support-falls-2012-peak-more-become-0 - This, by the way, is a more recent poll from one of the 2 sources currently cited in the article. This only furthers my point.

  https://www.itv.com/news/2022-06-01/poll-dramatic-decline-in-support-for-monarchy-in-decade-since-diamond-jubilee

  https://www.npr.org/2022/06/01/1102335388/queen-elizabeth-platinum-jubilee-great-britain-royal-family?t=1658523026450

  https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/platinum-jubilee-queen-half-britons-wont-celebrate-royal-family-out-of-touch-poll-1665587 DeaconShotFire (talk) 20:51, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks, DeaconShotFire, I'll take a look at those. You will also need to reformat the RfC's introduction to something neutral (in this case, probably of the form "Should X be changed to Y?"). Currently, it argues for your position, which is not appropriate. If you want to argue for your position, do it in this section, not the RfC introduction itself. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 21:21, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

  Given the more recent polling data including falling support levels, I think some material regarding that change is appropriate (so long as it's contextualized appropriately; it looks like a majority still generally is in favor). I also do agree that material regarding the level of support for the British monarchy in general is appropriate in this article, as Elizabeth is the most visible symbol and essentially "face" of said monarchy and as such is inextricably linked to it. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:00, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

• Comment (apologies for the editing mess) The article contains an editor's note citing polls conducted in 2006 and 2007, implying the sentence shouldn't be changed because of them. I argue these polls are extremely outdated and no longer reflective of reality. I sourced more recent YouGov polls in my edit which show a decline in support for the monarchy, but consistent popularity for the Queen herself. The sentence is even later directly contradicted by a more recent inclusion in the article: "Whilst not as universal as it once was, various polling suggested the popularity of the monarchy remained high in Great Britain during the Platinum Jubilee". Why is this article still citing polls conducted a decade and a half ago, when more recent data is so readily available, as evidenced by the latter quote?

  https://yougov.co.uk/topics/lifestyle/articles-reports/2022/06/01/platinum-jubilee-where-does-public-opinion-stand-m

  https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Queen_Elizabeth_II DeaconShotFire (talk) 21:37, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

• Neutral - I've no concerns either way, if it's added or not. GoodDay (talk) 22:21, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

• No: - the proposal just has not met WP:ONUS of providing cites showing any noted drop for Elizabeth II nor showing it WP:DUE mention, and the vague phrasing gives a false impression of significant shift and/or low approval. The NPR cite above gives her approval at 80%+ in 2022, Really this is not a vital thing as it's not like she is standing for election or that her rule is greatly affected by minor shifts. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:32, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  A drop of approximately 10% in 10 years is not substantial? The phrasing also doesn't have to be set in stone. The sentence maintains that her personal popularity is high, while mentioning declining support for the institution of which she is the figurehead and most recognisable member. You haven't refuted any of the sources I provided suggesting that the information in the article is outdated. DeaconShotFire (talk) 05:03, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  Definitely not any substantial change nor any impact. The minor variation over 30 years is not widely remarked upon like something of importance would be, nor did the trivial variations affect her life. The Diamond Jubilee 10 years ago did mark a minor peak -- but it is hardly significant as seen by there just was not much notice of it. It is not WP:DUE any remark, let alone wandering off into offtopic remarks not about Elizabeth II. Look at the chart in Ipsos and it is just 30 years of not much change and no importance. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:43, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

  If it's got nothing to do with her then surely we should remove any mention of the monarchy as a whole from the article. Clearly that's an absurd idea because it's entirely relevant to her.

  "The Diamond Jubilee 10 years ago did mark a minor peak -- but it is hardly significant as seen by there just was not much notice of it." - No source to back this up I guess, ignoring the 5 that I've posted above countering exactly that statement.

  "It is not WP:DUE any remark, let alone wandering off into offtopic remarks not about Elizabeth II. Look at the chart in Ipsos and it is just 30 years of not much change and no importance." Again -- no explanation for why you think this is unimportant. Not that whether you think it's important is relevant; I'm alleging that the information in the article is outdated -- and you claim that new data conducted by Ipsos and YouGov is not important enough to include, therefore we should leave the article as is? DeaconShotFire (talk) 02:57, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

  Sure, I can explain again. Yes, leave it alone or removal would be fine, and the support for monarchy just is phrased separately from her and is not a big debate so trimming that out would also be fine. The proposed statements are not fine. In 70 years it seems approval rating is proven insignificant by having no major variations, no effects, and no major coverage. One could even add the 2022 links to the existing text as there just is not much going on here.

  I did not ignore the 5 cites shown, but observe that the Diamond Jubilee was a minor peak and the rating simply returned to the norm shown in the 30 year chart, so a statement summarising that solely about the minor decline is a misleading distortion of that material and an incorrect implication of cause. I again note it all seems an UNDUE issue because 5 cites out of tens or hundreds of thousands of Diamond Jubilee links available just is microscopic. Approval rating in her case just has not been anything of great change or impact or public coverage. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 11:29, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

• Support - the proposed wording regarding the monarchy ("remains high but has been declining in recent years") appears accurate, brief and well supported by the sources DeaconShotFire points to at the top of this survey. The sources explicitly describe this shift as being a significant feature of/challenge within Elizabeth's reign, evidence of due weight. I agree the current wording regarding the monarchy generally ("has been and remains consistently high") is poorly supported, likely outdated and contradicts the sources raised above, while being a better reflection of Elizabeth's personal popularity. Jr8825 • Talk 10:22, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
• No. I don't think the new wording is right. The article text says the popularity was lowest in 1997, which is believable and cited. Popularity was high before then, it then sank to a low point in the late 1990s, it then rose again. This new sentence doesn't appear to reflect that. Even at the low point, support for the monarchy was still far higher than for republicanism. Celia Homeford (talk) 08:44, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Polls are open to so much interpretation, from the questions to the results, that it's best to leave them out of an encyclopedia, unless maybe it's an indepth analysis considering many polls and poll results over many years. It certainly shouldn't be in a lede. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 15:59, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
• Comment* If anything, the statement should at least be cleaned up to remove a few redundancies. "However, support for the monarchy in the United Kingdom has been and remains consistently high, as does her personal popularity." Kerdooskis (talk) 16:40, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose, If you look at Republicanism_in_the_United_Kingdom#Opinion_polling, support dropped in 2019 after the Andrew episode and has since been fairly stable at a lower (but still quite high) level. As such, saying it's "declining" does seem inaccurate.--Llewee (talk) 12:07, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
• Strong oppose, I've debated on this sentence before, and at the time we ended up not changing it. This was in mid-to-late May this year. I added 2 opinion polls to the article from 2020-2022 and that meant that the sentence could be kept intact. This issue has been thoroughly discussed very recently, and AFAIK there has been no major change in the popularity of the monarchy. I see no reason as to why it should be changed now. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 19:48, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Discussion

• Comment: I would suggest editing that statement to "However, she remains a consistently popular monarch", or something similar (with appropriate citation), and removing all reference to the popularity of the monarchy itself. The popularity of the monarchy is actually a concept quite separate to the popularity of Elizabeth as a monarch. Many of the things that have influenced the popularity of the monarchy (Prince Andrew, for example) haven't really involved Elizabeth directly. This would, happily, spare us the obligation of assessing whether the British Public are currently royalists or republicans. Elemimele (talk) 21:42, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

  I would argue she is more or less the embodiment of the monarchy. Plus, not everything in the article is directly or has to be directly exclusively about her. The article goes on to talk about increased criticism of the royal family as a whole in the 1980s, and states that Elizabeth's own personal popularity is credited with Australia voting in 1999 to keep their monarchy. DeaconShotFire (talk) 22:14, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

  Her personal popularity is inevitably linked to the popularity of the monarchy itself. From what I can tell, Elizabeth seems to be consistently popular, unlike some of the royals. I don't see any good reason to change the language in the fourth paragraph. Векочел (talk) 04:30, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

  "Her personal popularity is inevitably linked to the popularity of the monarchy itself." This is a sentence that argues for my side. If they're linked, it should be mentioned.

  You also haven't refuted the evidence I've posted above that the information in the article is outdated. DeaconShotFire (talk) 15:59, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Please let the RFC run its full 30-day course. Then seek closure at Wikipedia:Closure requests, when the RFC tag expires. GoodDay (talk) 22:05, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Female soverign

I think Elizabeth should be more recognized as the “longest verifiable reign of any female sovereign in history”, because not only she’s the second longest, she’s the longest female sovereign (verifiable). if this isn’t agreeable, feel free to change it Hieliz. (talk) 15:43, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Incorrect Protection Status

This article is currently protected on the grounds that it is a biography of a living person.

As this person is now dead, if its protected status is to remain then the cause for that status must be changed.

1.126.111.213 (talk) 16:24, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

The WP:BLP policy also applies to those who are recently deceased, as well as the living, and as a high-profile individual whose family members are also prominent, I imagine Elizabeth II would be covered by that for a few months.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:34, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Infobox: religion

Should the infobox for this article mention the subject's religion? Whether as "Protestant" or as "Church of England". As the article body notes, she had to be 'officially' Anglican (as ), and in addition to this made any number of references to her beliefs. Several other 'British royals' articles do mention it there, presumably for reasons relating to the succession act. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 07:26, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

No. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:17, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Birth place in infobox

Elizabeth was born at 17 Bruton Street in Mayfair, London. Should this be in the Infobox? Balmoral Castle is listed under |death_place=, and that's as specific as saying 17 Bruton Street. So, if we can't have the house in |birth_place=, shouldn't we remove the castle from |death_place=? Strugglehouse (talk) 22:23, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I think we can safely say she died at Balmoral Castle, without needing to list in the infobox the exact street address where she was born. Since the castle is several miles from any village, we would be wrong to simply say "Ballater" for example. The Bruton Street address is within Mayfair.Wehwalt (talk) 01:56, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

I can't recall ever seeing a street address in the infobox for birthplace; it's usually a city, and a well-known castle plus the city is more than enough. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:01, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia Most exact street addresses of birth aren't known so aren't listed. Strugglehouse (talk) 12:25, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia I've seen exact hospitals written as birthplace. Isn't this similar? Strugglehouse (talk) 12:26, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Give me an example to understand why that was done ? The issue here is not that we know the exact address, but that we don't need that level of detail in the infobox; it's in the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:42, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

The Balmoral estate is about 50,000 acres, so it's a fair bit less specific than a townhouse address. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 09:01, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

She died at the castle and that's what we say. Wehwalt (talk) 11:58, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

My point is that it's hard to be any less specific -- than a place which while notionally a single address, is actually several squares miles of countryside -- without being silly about it. "Ballater and Crathie Community Council"? "Somewhere in rural Aberdeenshire"? Doesn't even pass through the Gate of Things You'd Say in a Sentence, never mind what's sourceable. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 00:11, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Maybe it should just be Hakkasan, Mayfair.[7] DeCausa (talk) 12:57, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Seeing as we're not going to use "United Kingdom"? I've made changes to the infoboxes at William IV & Charles III, although (for consistency sake), I recommend an RFC on this "place of birth, place of death" topic. GoodDay (talk) 13:39, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Place of death and birth consitancy

The infobox rows for the place and birth are currently inconistant, as the place of death row includes the country in the UK, in which it occoured (Scotland), however, this is not the case for the place of birth row, which does not.

Is there any objection to me changing the place of birth to the folowing:-

Mayfair, London, England, United Kingdom Csharpmar (talk) 20:25, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, Mayfair, London is all thats needed. That's why we have wikilinks. Is anyone in doubt where London is? We don't want even more unnecessary descriptors. DeCausa (talk) 20:45, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Should the Scotland from the place of birth be removed then? Most people wouldn’t be in any doubt that Aberdeenshire is in Scotland. It seems odd that the individual country of the UK is needed in one case, but not the other. Csharpmar (talk) 22:28, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

See #Should we list Scotland in place of death field of infobox? above. Consistency is hard to achieve in this area. I agree though, for what it's worth, that the article should be internally consistent. John (talk) 22:47, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I think there's less of a case for adding "England" here as London's a global city and not in especially urgent need of contextualisation, and because (at the risk of a degree of WP:RECENTISM) the subject's place of birth is of less notability, as measured in what's currently reliably sourceable. We don't need strict consistency across the entire article, as that would lead to maniacal repetition, but if a parallel construction is required for the purposes of the infobox, that's somewhat reasonable. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 04:13, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Well there seems to be a concensus, that they should be consistant within the infoxbox. Per #Should we list Scotland in place of death field of infobox?, it is probably best to place England in the place of birth row, as the best means to achieve this. Csharpmar (talk) 15:36, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

There's inconsistencies on this matter, across many royal bios. Maybe we're better off, leaving out England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom. Thus removing the 'problem'. GoodDay (talk) 00:59, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Update - I've removed "United Kingdom" from the infoboxes of William IV's & Charles III's infoboxes, to bring them into line with Elizabeth II's infobox. Recommend we have an RFC on this topic, though. GoodDay (talk) 13:42, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Full ascension date in first sentence

Opening sentence writes that she reigned "from 6 February 1952 until her death in 2022". I do not understand why the full date of her ascension is in the first sentence. Isn't it a tad trivial from a high-level perspective? It's odd that we provide the full date of ascension but not the full date of death. It is more concise to just say "from 1952 until her death in 2022". TarkusAB^talk/contrib 17:06, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

The entire accession date is shown, as that's when her reign began. We don't need to show the entire date of the end of her reign, as her death date is already in the intro. This style appears to be used, in the intros of her predecessors. GoodDay (talk) 17:12, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Undiscussed removal of ancestry table sections by user

@Surtsicna: I'm not sure where you got the idea that this ancestry table to this degree of ancestry is recent to the point of the last few weeks, should not be deleted without being discussed here first, simply to support your argument for removing it from the page of Charles III. The ancestry table on this page has remained like this for many years at this point, and needs discussion before hasty deletions simply to support your viewpoints on other pages AlbusWulfricDumbledore (talk) 22:41, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

"Many years" is quite a stretch given that it was added last year. No Oswald Smith needs to be mentioned here. This is a general biography, and Wikipedia is not a genealogy website. Surtsicna (talk) 22:47, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Summary - (the degree of ancestry has been there for many years before its brief removal last year in fact) instead of cherrypicked individuals, the people on the previous chart were not insignificant, its hardly a scroll of their entire genealogy and would be of interest to readers in my opinion. This is the entire point of the collapsable ancestry table. Will wait for other opinions in case of starting edit wars on the other page, as I fear it may lead to otherwise AlbusWulfricDumbledore (talk) 22:52, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I am 100% in favor of continuing to include the ancestry chart. It's notable information for a person who derived their office from their ancestry, and we have oodles of RS indicating that this is notable information. Duh. Please note the text from WP:NOTGENEALOGY: "Family histories should be presented only where appropriate to support the reader's understanding of a notable topic." in this case, the notable topic is the fact that this person was a literal queen of a country that uses a birthright system to determine who sits on the throne. This is a real no-brainer. Joe (talk) 06:10, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Her descent from an Oswald Smith is of no relevance to her accession to the British throne. Surtsicna (talk) 06:36, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

@Surtsicna The ancestry section doesn't even go back far enough to include Oswald Smith. Oswald Smith is also only one of the many ancestors of the late Queen—along with more relevant people like Elizabeth Lyon, a possible child of James VII; the Duke of Portland, Prime Minister for roughly four years; and Richard Wellesley, Foreign Secretary and sibling to the Duke of Wellington. Allowing users an easy way to find out these ancestral connections is plenty enough reason to keep the ancestry section. Yo.dazo (talk) 09:23, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

It does not indeed go back that far, nor should it. If some of the numerous biographies of Elizabeth mention these people as her ancestors, we can do so too. If, as I suspect, they do not, it is not the purpose of Wikipedia to provide readers with genealogy deemed interesting by one editor or another. Surtsicna (talk) 18:17, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I'll only support the usage of a (vertical) family tree, limited to the 'monarch', her parents & grandparents. GoodDay (talk) 00:56, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Adding years to the section title for Elizabeth's reign

I made an edit that added the years Elizabeth reigned in the section title that says reign. GoodDay reverted me and said that it is already in the infobox. However, we can make similar arguments for removing the years in the section header for other articles like Margaret Thatcher, Tony Blair, Barack Obama, and Ronald Reagan because they are already in the infobox. I am hoping that we can get a consensus regarding whether it is appropriate to use the years in section headers for this individual or similar ones as well. Interstellarity (talk) 10:28, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Put it back in, if you want. It's nothing too concerning, to me. GoodDay (talk) 22:09, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

@Interstellarity Worth pointing out that all your examples are people who went through different duties throughout their life. Thatcher, as an example, was an MP, then Education Secretary, then Leader of the Opposition, then Prime Minister. Adding years to the section heads here make sense so they can provide context about the times while they were in office.

Compare this to Elizabeth II, who was a princess for a while then reigned as queen for seven decades after that. It's less like *writing the years for a President's term* and more like *writing the years for someone's Adult Life section*. Noting down the years might make more sense for some of the subsections under *Reign* though, particularly the Jubilee years and the Annus Horribilis. Yo.dazo (talk) 09:46, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Pinging @Peter Ormond for some input on adding years who removed them. Interstellarity (talk) 13:21, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Per Yo.dazo's rationale. It's redundant as she only had one job her whole life. Peter Ormond 💬 13:53, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Citation for time of death / cause of death

The current citation for the time of death and cause of death is an Express article. Being a tabloid, such a source would rarely be used - wouldn't https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63078676 be better? 84.92.90.18 (talk) 13:56, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

See "Cause of Death" on this talk page. S C Cheese (talk) 19:27, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

The article reads

On 8 September 2022, Buckingham Palace released a statement which read: "Following further evaluation this morning, the Queen's doctors are concerned for Her Majesty's health and have recommended she remain under medical supervision.

Note that the Palace statement did NOT say she received medical supervision, just that it was recommended. This suggests that the Queen wanted a DNR Do Not Resuscitate Do Not Treat."

The Palace does not blurt things out but writes things carefully. When they want the public to think one way, they will carefully craft a press release so that technically it is truthful, even if a little deceptive. Naturally, there will be no news articles about this unless years later someone writes a book about it. That means WP must be very careful not to be a mouthpiece for propaganda, at the same time observing Wikipedia's reliable source requirement. It's a fine balance. CandyStalnak (talk) 18:58, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Cause of death

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Just seen the death certificate if it’s even real declaring HM passing was deemed “old age” 2A02:C7F:5C30:4200:BC4C:F9D6:EBE2:707A (talk) 13:19, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Indeed: https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//images/entry-in-the-register-of-deaths-hm-the-queen.jpg. Time for another argument over whether her surname is Windsor? (It is.) Celia Homeford (talk) 13:28, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

No. We already had an RFC on that & the result was - not to show Windsor in the intro or the infobox. GoodDay (talk) 21:51, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

"Old age" is an accepted cause of death in Scotland. The appropriate citation is the National Register of Scotland, as above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by S C Cheese (talk • contribs) 19:29, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Better to use a reliable secondary source. Wehwalt (talk) 19:58, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Earlier today I twice attempted to add https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//images/entry-in-the-register-of-deaths-hm-the-queen.jpg as a citation (see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Elizabeth_II&action=history) but each time it didn't appear. Now I see it after 15:10 BST, where I tried to insert it, with my author wording. Was there a delay in its appearance? Mcljlm (talk) 10:16, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

1 The citation was deleted at 11:18, just over an hour after my previous reply, by User:Amakuru. Considering it's the official source on which all other reports are based isn't it worth including? Mcljlm (talk) 13:35, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

You added the citation twice. First, you added it here. You added it a second time here. Note in the second diff, the first citation you added was still there. Please also notice that both times, you added the citation at the beginning of the paragraph, which is not a typical place to place a citation. Keivan.f removed the duplicate citation not long after and moved the remaining citation to the statement regarding the Queen's cause of death. Maybe you didn't see the citations when you first added it because you didn't realize you were adding it to the beginning of the paragraph?

In any case, Amakuru's removal of the citation seems OK to me--there's already a secondary source (BBC) that supports the Queen's time of death, and a copy of the certificate is embedded in the article. Having both in the article seems duplicative. Aoi (青い) (talk) 14:06, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Since it was intended to follow 15:10 BST I must have clicked the beginning of the paragraph as well as the intended position where it did appear eventually. If so I don't understand how I did that twice. Your "Maybe you didn't see the citations ... because you didn't realize" is exact.

Since the BBC article is based on https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files//images/entry-in-the-register-of-deaths-hm-the-queen.jpg isn't that preferable to the BBC article User:Amakuru? Mcljlm (talk) 14:37, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Meh. I understand your point, but I prefer the BBC source because 1) it provides context beyond the raw document, and 2) it is an article and thus is more accessible to those with disabilities than a JPEG, which, if i understand correctly, can't be parsed by screen readers. Aoi (青い) (talk) 15:05, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

We should be very careful to be objective, considering both reliable sources and not to be manipulated by the Palace. "Old age" may be listed on the death certificate, which is considered a "reliable source" so it ok for Wikipedia. However, we must realize that it is not a clinical term. See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8651340/ What likely happened is that the Queen had a stroke or heart arrhythmia and, having the philosophy of "it's better to be healthy or dead" and not wanting to be wheelchair bound like the Queen Mother (who took great pains not to be photographed in a wheelchair, even reported on Wikipedia), she and/or the Princess Royal, decided to be a Do Not Resuscitate or Do Not Treat. The doctors could have thought it was very likely a stroke but since the Queen may not have wanted to go to the hospital for a CT scan, a stroke couldn't be proven without an autopsy.

If you read the link, you may come to realize that people don't die of "old age". When old, then may suffer a heart arrythmia causing death or maybe suffer a pulmonary embolism. Even saying "she died of a broken heart" is not clinical. What may be clinical is that severe situational depression, like a death of a spouse, can lead to irregular heart beats (arrythmias) and, coupled with old age heart block, can result in death.

I know people in Wikipedia will say "you have no proof of the above" but we don't need proof. We're not making an edit saying the Queen had a stroke. Rather, by analyzing the situation, we can be aware not to be a stooge or mouthpiece of the Palace. Since we can suspect the clinical cause of death is not "old age", we can write in WP something that reflects the truth AND doesn't contradict the Palace. That something could be along the lines of the death certificate listing "old age" and a time of death of 16:51 BST. CandyStalnak (talk) 07:12, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

What nonsense. She was 96. She obviously died of old age. Celia Homeford (talk) 07:29, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Did you read the link? Saying "she obviously died of old age" or "she died of old age" shows lack of understanding. I know it's a British thing to say people died of "old age" or "natural causes", but that is vague, imprecise, and inaccurate clinically. I know the Palace wants privacy so it got what it wanted, i.e. a vague term used. Also, look at the Duke of Edinburgh who lived nearly 5 years longer. You can also say a 85 year old died of old age but if that were the Queen, it would have been murder at age 85.

CandyStalnak (talk) 07:44, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Calling me 'dum' is in no way comparable to calling your comment 'nonsense'. How can you possibly accuse me of incivility when you reply in the same vein or worse? Celia Homeford (talk) 07:52, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

False accusation. Someone else called you "dum" (someone who cannot spell or speel correctly). CandyStalnak (talk) 21:43, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

This is a rather pointless argument. Obviously "old age" isn't an actual biological cause of death, there must be something more immediate like a heart attack or organ failure or whatever. But then again, we don't have any other info on this than what the sources give us, often it's not even verified what happened for very old people. And Candy's analysis above looks a lot like original research. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 07:59, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

The appropriate wording will carry the meaning that the death certificate gave the cause of death as "Old age". This is an acceptable cause in Scotland. If any other information on the cause becomes available it should be added with its provenance. S C Cheese (talk) 14:32, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

No, it's NOT original research. Original research is when you edit the article that way. What it is called is "thinking" and "not being a stooge to propaganda". Think what is the true story and don't be a mouthpiece of the press release. Instead, strike a balance between the two, truth versus the press release. What that practically means in NOT citing the cause of death as "old age" but citing that the death certificate lists "old age" (without mention of cause).CandyStalnak (talk) 21:41, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm all in favour of free discussion -- and on thinking -- but when your defence is 'I didn't actually add my OR to the article, I just advocated it directly for it', we're in somewhere in the realm between 'inchoate OR' and 'unconstructive use of a talk page'. We're not using the 'press release' (or the primary source itself, the registration of death), we're using reliable secondary sources, which say things like "Old age was the only cause of death listed, with no other contributing factors." (Guardian.) It's tortuous to say something is "listed" on the registration without making clear how it's listed. Wasn't her Occupation, after all. (Not officially at any rate, that was Majestying.) Unless there's balancing sources that go big on "the registration listed 'old age', but that's terrible practice and couldn't possibly happen here", we should report what the RS say, in a clear and not in a misleading way, and that's it. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 04:33, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Amakuru's and Wehwalt's comments in this thread are exactly right. If it goes in the article then it should be sourced to a reliable secondary source like the BBC article and not the death certificate per WP:PRIMARY. Speculation on whether "old age" is a real cause of death or not is WP:ORish. The text cited to the secondary source should be along the lines that the cause of death "as stated on the death certicate" was old age. I can't see that there's anything else to be discussed. DeCausa (talk) 12:38, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Face it folks, the Queen's death certificate is opaque and doesn't tell us anything much. There have been plenty of suggestions that the Queen became very ill with something or other during 2022, but without reliable sourcing, this is going nowhere.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 12:50, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

Reliable source: https://www.businessinsider.com/what-does-it-mean-to-die-of-old-age-2016-6

Quote:

"Old age" isn't really a medical cause of death.

Queen Elizabeth's death certificate says she died of "old age" at 96.

Conclusion is that the legal cause of death is old age but not the true cause of death or medical cause of death or clinical cause of death. So they want to keep it secret....fine with me as along as we're honest about it.

CandyStalnak (talk) 08:04, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Further citations:Listing old age as a cause of death for the Queen is misleading | Letters | The Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/oct/03/listing-old-age-as-a-cause-of-death-for-the-queen-is-misleading 09:07, 4 October 2022 (UTC) CandyStalnak (talk) 09:07, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

That source also notes such a diagnosis is not unique to QEII, suggesting an individual focus here is a bit misguided. CMD (talk) 09:15, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) That's a letter to the paper, it's not a reliable source. And Business Insider doesn't have firm consensus as a reliable source either, per WP:BI. Time to WP:DROPTHESTICK.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:18, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Time to WP:DROPTHESTICK for reporting propaganda because there is no reliable source reporting the Queen's real cause of death, only the legal cause of death on the death certificate. I get it that the King wants family privacy but that is no excuse for WP to be like Putin's Spokesman and report only propaganda. There IS a way to report things tactfully by specifying the legal cause of death, for example. CandyStalnak (talk) 10:06, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8651340/

these terms are not used in clinical practice and there has been some criticism recently regarding the use of ‘frailty of old age’ in the MCCD

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/queen-elizabeth-ii-s-death-certificate-says-she-died-of-old-age-what-it-means-101664596640445.html

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/queen-cause-death-old-age-25140295 Why doctors were able to say the Queen died of old age when they're usually advised not to

A death certificate like the Queen's is only seen in 'very limited circumstances'

https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/celebrity-life/royals/why-queen-elizabeth-iis-cause-of-death-may-never-be-revealed/news-story/ce817def509170777c898059ef6a67c6

Please provide citations to refute these 4 articles from The Guardian, Business Insider, Hindustan Times and National Library of Medicine. 10:09, 4 October 2022 (UTC) CandyStalnak (talk) 10:09, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

The fact is that it has been recorded that way on the death certificate. Unfounded speculation about why it was recorded in such a way belongs elsewhere, and is outside the scope of this article. -- DeFacto (talk). 10:25, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

I do not dispute that "old age" in on the death certificate. However, it's not a medical cause of death. It is a strawman to contend that either it's "old age" or a long conspiracy theory edited in Wikipedia. There is middle ground. For example, we can say that the legal cause of death was "old age". There is other middle ground that explains more extensively about the matter.

So I am suggesting moderate views, not radical views, such as the radical view of accepting the palace statements hook, line, and sinker or extensive explanations about the death certificate. CandyStalnak (talk) 02:30, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are saying. What's wrong with simply sticking to the facts we know; that "the cause of death is recorded as 'old age'"? That isn't the palace saying that, it's officially recorded as that. -- DeFacto (talk). 12:04, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

CandyStalnak, you are becoming disruptive. Stop making ridiculous statements like we're being like "Putin's Spokesman and report only propaganda" (or this silly WP:POINTiness). You have no reliable sources. You're quoting vague speculation, WP:SYNTH and unreliable sources (Business Insider) to put forward what is verging on a conspiracy theory. WP:DROPTHESTICK before it's taken away from you. DeCausa (talk) 19:12, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Please do not be disruptive, DeCausa. I am simply trying to write an encyclopedia with profound thought and not to be so quick to copy the Palace statements verbatim. There is clearly either privacy issues or a desire for secrecy. The danger of just repeating press releases may be seen with Trump, who had a press statement that he would be the healthiest President ever. No reliable sources are available to refute it but you want to say the above about Trump. Certainly not. CandyStalnak (talk) 23:38, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Not true. Business Insider is under new management. The RFC had reasonably good support of it. The RFC was closed as a non-admin closure and not a snowball. What Business Insider can be useful is when it cites information found in other reliable sources but mentions several of them. For example, fact A, B, and C in one article when other sources mention A, B, and C, but separately in 3 articles. In this case, the Business Insider makes no new statements but nice combines information found in several sources. 21:58, 5 October 2022 (UTC) CandyStalnak (talk) 21:58, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Go by secondary sources & leave it at that. GoodDay (talk) 02:40, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Some secondary sources point to either vague or opaqueness of "old age" as used in the death certificate. That's why Wikipedia should be cautious and not simply be a mouthpiece of the Palace by writing "Elizabeth II died of old age". This is a compromise that fills all of Wikpedian ideals (reliable sources, not pushing one side's opinion, and truth). It is not Wikipedian ideals to put false information that has a citation nor misleading or incomplete information that has a citation. It must be all (citation, true, not misleading, not pushing the views of the Palace). CandyStalnak (talk) 22:01, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources confirm the Palace is secretive

From that period until her death — and now beyond — authorities have released only carefully curated snippets of information. https://futurism.com/neoscope/queen-elizabeth-death-cause

Such a vague cause of death not only raises questions about how someone died "old age" became a last resort phrase to describe an unknown cause of death. Or it became useful where a person may have died from a number of complications https://theconversation.com/the-queens-death-certificate-says-she-died-of-old-age-but-what-does-that-really-mean-191666

In your 90s, 'anything can take you': Why the Queen's cause of death may never be revealed https://nationalpost.com/news/world/in-your-90s-anything-can-take-you-why-the-queens-cause-of-death-may-never-be-revealed (major respected Canadian newspaper)

Doesn't mean we need to incorporate this but should give us pause that there is something more to write. CandyStalnak (talk) 02:51, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Nonsense. "A death certificate like the Queen's is only seen in 'very limited circumstances'." Absolute nonsense. Death certificates are public documents; anyone can buy a copy. Celia Homeford (talk) 07:22, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

There are reports that reporters requested the death certificate but were denied until later. 21:43, 5 October 2022 (UTC) CandyStalnak (talk) 21:43, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Where are these reports? -- DeFacto (talk). 05:44, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

That's nothing but unfounded mischief-making by the press though .Why would we, if it is encyclopaedic content we want to add, take any notice of that? -- DeFacto (talk). 12:08, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Citation please that the press engage in "unfounded mischief-making". That sort of excuse can be used by authoritarian regimes who do not want transparency. There are citations that the cause of death for the Queen has been very opaque. I get it that the Royal Family wants more privacy than afforded the ordinary British subject, which is why they are subjects and sometimes not called citizens.

A good compromise between being a mouthpiece of the Royal Family and writing substantiated truths is to simply allude to the "legal cause of death" as "old age". This allows the reader to take the hint that the medical cause is different. Indeed, there are several citations, including medical journals, about "old age" not being a cause of death. Likely is that the Queen didn't want to be taken to a hospital but just allowed to die. That is not so bad and not scandalous. 21:48, 5 October 2022 (UTC) CandyStalnak (talk) 21:48, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

With only speculation and no verifiable facts related to any wrongdoing, it is mischief-making. It's not "authoritarian regimes" making this allegation, it is me as it is perfectly acceptable for a doctor to record this as a cause of death. Without substantial and verifiable evidence (i.e. not gossip, tittle-tattle, mischief-making or hearsay) that it is likely that there was a nefarious reason to have recorded it that way, it is unacceptable (and against WP:BLP) to throw these wild allegations of potential wrongdoing.

A few questions that I think need answering:

• Where are the citations alluded to that the cause of death for the Queen has been very opaque?
• What is meant by the Royal Family wants more privacy than afforded the ordinary British subject?
• What is meant by which is why they are subjects and sometimes not called citizens?
• Who is being a mouthpiece of the Royal Family?
• What is the substantiated truth about the cause of death, if it isn't that as certified by the Queen's doctor?
• What is meant by legal cause of death, and how does it differ from the certified cause of death?
• What is meant by This allows the reader to take the hint that the medical cause is different and what is known about any medical cause?
• You say there are several citations, including medical journals, about "old age" not being a cause of death. So what. What we need are reliable sources saying "old age" is never valid on a Scottish death certificate, and that say this was used illegally. Without those, you do not have a case.

You seem to be trying to introduce a fringe theory or conspiracy theory into the article without adequate sourcing. -- DeFacto (talk). 06:23, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

Yep. And this allows the reader to take the hint that the medical cause is different. wtf, CandyStalnak? We absolutely can’t “give hints”, especially to unsourced conspiracy theories affecting BLPs. You appear to have no understanding of Wikipedia DeCausa (talk) 06:56, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

https://www.rcpjournals.org/content/futurehosp/8/3/e686

‘old age’ could be used if a person is above the age of 80 years. However, these terms are not used in clinical practice and there has been some criticism recently regarding the use of ‘frailty of old age’ in the MCCD,

When you say " 'old age' is never valid on a Scottish death certificate", that is not true. It is legally permitted even though it is not a term used in clinical practice.

You mention " 'legal cause of death', and how does it differ from the certified cause of death". That is a good idea. The article could be changed to "The certificated cause of death was 'old age'". Note that there is no certification but it is certificated, which is technically slightly different. An alternative is what is in the article now that "old age" is listed on the death certificate. We should not say "the cause of death is old age" because that implies a clinical diagnosis, which is the propaganda that we want to avoid. Words mean things and we must be precise for this high profile article.

I might add that the current version of the article is ok! That is because some of the deceptive palace language that was there in mid September is no longer there. CandyStalnak (talk) 18:51, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Anne, the Princess Royal, was the informant.

DeFacto cited WP:BRD. She reverted and did not discuss but cited WP:BRD. To help her, I will discuss.

Anne was the informant. This is likely to be interesting to the reader because the King, the oldest son, didn't do it. He and Anne were there at the time of death. Anne also signed. This was reported in many, many places, BBC, CNN, Sky, etc. Originally, only one citation was used but I propose more to help DeFacto.

She died at 15:10 BST. Anne, the Princess Royal, signed the death certificate as the informant with the cause of death of "old age". .

Is there any dispute that Anne was the informant?

CandyStalnak (talk) 08:15, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

That's not the issue. Firstly, it's for you to persuade others to your point of view and to initiate discussion to persuade others. See WP:ONUS and you've misunderstood what you ahould do under WP:BRD As the Bold editor, it's your responsibility engage with the editor who reverted you. Also, per ONUS just becuase there is a citation for it doesn't mean it should be included. You have to persuade others its worth including. this isn't worth including so i'm against it. It's unimprtant trivia. DeCausa (talk) 08:29, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Leave out the bit about Anne, as it's trivial. GoodDay (talk) 09:15, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Does it matter? Slatersteven (talk) 11:23, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Stop posting here. It should be obvious to everyone that you are a sock puppet of Charliestalnaker (talk · contribs). When you spun the story about only using the exact same device as them because you were their daughter, you were given extraordinary latitude and unblocked. But this persistent refusal to drop the argument plus the identical tone, use of language and vocabulary, indicates that you are them. We're not interested in your silly conspiracy theory that the palace is spinning propaganda to hide the real cause of death which "would have been murder" if she was 10 years younger. Celia Homeford (talk) 11:27, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Please do not get into a smear campaign otherwise it may come out that GoodDay (commented in this section) was banned by the Arbitration Committee and has been blocked about a dozen times. You have gotten into many fights including your fighting behavior now. This accusation is typical of Wikipedia. When you are losing in the logic aspect, people resort to calling people socks and trying to get them banned or blocked. That is very warlike and not someone who is out to make an encyclopedia. FYI, my Dad proved that it was not the "exact same device" because he edited at work mostly. Furthermore, the CHECKUSER overruled the blocking administrator! CandyStalnak (talk) 22:24, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Why the false accusation? There is no "silly conspiracy theory". A doctor on Wikipedia said the Queen probably didn't wake up in the morning and was found to have agonal breathing (breathing of people close to death). They then "made her comfortable" and didn't try to take her to the hospital. That is NOT murder. Besides, this edit (since reverted) was nothing about any conspiracy but rather who was the informant of the death certificate. If you don't like detail, why even put the time of death or that her death in Scotland caused Operation Unicorn, which is a bit of trivia. CandyStalnak (talk) 22:32, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

@CandyStalnak, I reverted because I do not agree with that trivial, but misleading, content being added. It is not important who the informant was - it could have been any of those present, any relation, or anyone who lived with her. But whoever does it needs a medical certificate of cause of death, which is usually provided by the doctor of the person who died, to present to the registrar. -- DeFacto (talk). 12:27, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanation. There is no "medical certificate of cause of death" released. It is possible that the informant gave the cause of death as their own opinion. My father was once asked to give the cause of a death at a relatives home and he did. Shockingly, it appeared on the death certificate. The hospital emergency room doctor did not want to fill out the death certificate. CandyStalnak (talk) 22:26, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

References

Back on topic, trivia

What is the criteria for trivia? In the article, it says " her private secretary, Martin Charteris, carried a draft accession declaration in case of the King's death while she was on tour.[57]". That is far more trivial. Perhaps it should be in the death of Elizabeth article instead? CandyStalnak (talk) 22:37, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Why are you trying to add something to this page, that many editors don't want you to add? GoodDay (talk) 23:06, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Just the bunch of aggressive, uncivil editors are that way. There is no opposition from normal editors. This is a WP:BRD. That is why there is discussion. But I am coming to think that maybe not add what I suggested. See, this is proof that I am a normal person who is civil and nice. CandyStalnak (talk) 23:58, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

"Betty Windsor" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Betty Windsor and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 9#Betty Windsor until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. QueenofBithynia (talk) 19:09, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Does Charles need to be linked twice in the lead?

No reason to link Charles in the lead twice, can the second link (located in the sentence "succeeded by her eldest child, King Charles III") be removed? 79.66.82.129 (talk) 10:25, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, done. DeCausa (talk) 10:28, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you! --79.66.82.129 (talk) 10:33, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Article quality

It's not really at FA level is it? Samples:

• "Elizabeth's solicitors had taken action against The Sun five years earlier for breach of copyright, after it published a photograph of her daughter-in-law the Duchess of York and her granddaughter Princess Beatrice. The case was solved with an out-of-court settlement that ordered the newspaper to pay $180,000." Why would they pay in dollars? John (talk) 09:33, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

• "The number of her realms varied over time as territories gained independence and some realms became republics." "Varied", or decreased? John (talk) 10:14, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

  Agree with the overall topic here but this sentence is fine and "varied" is correct. I think you are misreading "gained independence" as independent from the monarch. The number went up when British colonies "gained independence" to become sovereign states of which Elizabeth II then became monarch. The number went down when these sovereign states "became republics". For example, the non-sovereign territory of British Kenya gained independence in 1963 to become the The Dominion of Kenya with Elizabeth as Queen of Kenya (so the number went up by 1). Within a year they abolished the monarchy and became the Republic of Kenya which removed Elizabeth as head of state (so the number went down). JamesLewisBedford01 (talk) 20:59, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Varied. DrKay (talk) 10:16, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

The lead is usually a summary of the article. Which part of the article does this summarise? John (talk) 10:22, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Acceleration of decolonisation and Continuing evolution, plus the succession boxes and incidental mentions (e.g Fiji and Mauritius) in later sections. DrKay (talk) 10:25, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

There's been 6k+ edits since it became an FA. I guess it's par for the course for a decade old FA. DeCausa (talk) 10:29, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

It isn't great that in order to access the information this supposed factoid summarises, we have to click a "show" button in the infobox, then Ctrl-F for Fiji and Mauritius. It would be nice (perhaps after the fuss around her death has died down) to rewrite this article as a proper biographical FA. John (talk) 10:55, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

On reading the article again, it seems that the number of countries listing Elizabeth as their head of state increased, but both the area and number of people living in them decreased over time. What would be wrong with just stating that, since it's the truth? If I take a cake off you, cut it into four pieces, eat two of them, then hand you back two pieces, and justify it by pointing out you now have twice as many pieces of cake as you started with, anybody over the age of one is going to feel cheated. That's what this article currently does, and it's dishonest. John (talk) 21:35, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

While there are definitely some improvements this article could have "varied" is definitely the best way. Your proposal here is a bit verbose, and 'varied' is truthful. Cake and countries are a little different, and I don't think such a sentence has any actual problems, not does more extensive information being within an infobox you have to expand (in fact, that gives more justification for why a summary is good to have). 90.198.253.144 (talk) 13:53, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

I believe the hidden text in the infobox is a MOS breach, and (yet again) an artefact of ridiculous infobox parameters (just because the parameter is provided doesn't mean we have to use it), If that hidden infobox info is still in the article when/if it comes to FAR, I'll be listing that as a deficiency. Remove it to the body of the article; that level of detail in an infobox is one of the many absurdities that infoboxes impose on us. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:29, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• The current state of the article does not support the FA rating. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:09, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

  Guess an excuse was needed to put it on the front page... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.43.60 (talk) 14:34, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

• "Throughout her lifetime, support for the monarchy in the United Kingdom remained consistently high, as did her personal popularity." The first point is contradicted by the sources, which describe support for the monarchy declining over time. For example this source gives a decline from 73% to 62% over the period 2012-2022. That isn't "remaining consistently high", that's "declining fairly rapidly".

• "Intense media interest in the opinions and private lives of the royal family during the 1980s led to a series of sensational stories in the press, not all of which were entirely true." Sounds a bit weaselly: most of us know that the press makes both mistakes and deliberate errors. Are there more specific examples?

• "In the broadcast, she expressed admiration for Diana and her feelings "as a grandmother" for the two princes. As a result, much of the public hostility evaporated." I'd like to see more evidence of that. What does "much of" mean? It's fairly easy to find sources that contradict this view, so it certainly shouldn't be stated in Wikipedia's voice.

• "While touring Manchester as part of her Jubilee celebrations, Elizabeth made a surprise appearance at a wedding party at Manchester Town Hall, which then made international headlines." Given what she did for a living, almost everything she did would generate headlines. What was so special about this?

• "While not as universal as it once was, various polling suggested the popularity of the monarchy remained high in Great Britain during the Platinum Jubilee." Hmm. Is that straining to say that the royals lost popularity over time, without actually saying so?
• Why is the mention of her "voluntarily" paying tax not under "Finances"?
• We skate across the awkwardness of her second son paying out a millions-of-pounds settlement to a woman he claims he never met; yet we omit to mention that she paid at least some of the settlement for him? Why's that?

• No mention of The Crown or The Queen, both highly respected dramatisations of her life? That's a bit strange.

There's a good article to be written about this subject, and the sources are certainly there to do so. But this isn't it, yet. John (talk) 21:32, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

You're kinda late. It's already on the Main Page, as an FA. GoodDay (talk) 21:37, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm well aware of that. It's lucky that there is no deadline, and that WP:FAR is there if we need it. John (talk) 21:46, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I was just looking at the version that was promoted, and at the relevant FAC. I see at least a couple of the points I made above were made there, but seemingly not actioned. I also see how much better the article was then. I agree with DeCausa above that this can happen to a well-edited FA over time, that it can degenerate in quality. I'll give it a week three weeks here and if there is no progress we can consider FAR. John (talk) 23:03, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I'd leave the bit about the UK & the commonwealth realms alone. As for most of the rest, my impression is that your observation is that the bio was written with a pro-monarchist PoV. GoodDay (talk) 23:39, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

John the instructions at WP:FAR call for two to three weeks between notice and FAR (have you listed this at WP:FARGIVEN ?), but in this case, I'd argue that three to four weeks would be better, because the article has been so heavily hit since Elizabeth died, and cleaning it up will be hard with the traffic as high as it is. I was struggling for several days to keep up with the bad edits, and gave up. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 09:06, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, I have listed it there. John (talk) 15:03, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the FA-rating is an especially useful framing device for discussion of this range of topics, and maybe they'd be better factored out. But whatever works for people. I'd recommend we don't immediately go off to FAR, but proceed on the basis of revising the article in the light of recent events, and if we can fix some longer-standing issues in the process, then all to the good. Once it's stabilised might be a better time to address the rating issue; no deadline, indeed. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 04:24, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I've amended my timescale in light of Sandy's advice above. There is no way an article as weak as this should be represented as our best work. My preferred option would be restoring it to FA quality. If the prospect of losing the bronze star motivates anyone to start fixing some of the problems I've outlined above, well and good. Some responses would be a good first step. Why are we pretending that the size of her "realms" varied over time, when in fact it shrank? Why are we pretending the royal family is as popular as ever, when in reality it has lost popularity over time? John (talk) 14:56, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Well, you claim that the numbers of realms has reduced, a claim which you appear to be repeating. There were seven at the start. There were fifteen at the end. Obviously, not a decrease. I suspect that you have confused political realms with territorial area. While it is useful to know that ill-informed people mistake the two, we can't say that the number of realms decreased when that's obviously wrong. Celia Homeford (talk) 15:05, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought that might be the justification for this. I'll repeat the wording from my 14:56 post, so we are really clear: "Why are we pretending that the size of her "realms" varied over time, when in fact it shrank?" The size of her "realms" shrank greatly over time, as countries gained independence and became republics. That's an honest way of putting it, isn't it? That would be a great start. It was brought up at the FAC ten years ago too, but not actioned. I couldn't put the dishonesty of the current version better than the late, great Brianboulton did over 10 years ago. That this was not actioned is a shame. Better late than never, eh? John (talk) 15:27, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

The article doesn't say 'size'. It says 'number'. Celia Homeford (talk) 15:39, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

That's correct. But this is a dishonest and misleading claim which will lead most readers to think it means the extent or size has increased, when in fact the contrary is true. This will be confusing to the general reader (not merely the "ill-informed"), especially when the specialist word "realm" is used, and this was pointed out over ten years ago but not actioned. Let's action it now, shall we? John (talk) 16:06, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I really don't think it's dishonest, and even if I were to, I'd attempt to proceed otherwise in the interests of constructive discussion. I agree it's not ideal or at all clear, but I think that's because of the difficulty of summing up Empire -> Commonwealth v1 -> Commonwealth v2, in a sporadic case-by-case manner over seventy years, in succinct manner. And because editors of such topics love to use the "correct, official" terminology, regardless of their helpfulness to the general reader -- hence we have the word "accede" being double-digits times on a single royal article, as if that were a stylistically reasonable choice. I do think this needs a little more context to make clear that the "gain" of realms was due to countries becoming independent, having previously been colonies and dependencies, and the "loss" is due to them becoming republics. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 18:41, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't disagree with anything you say, 109.255.211.6. In terms of AGF, I should clarify that I am not accusing any individual editors of dishonesty; perhaps unconscious bias towards the subject of the article has played a part? But I don't care to analyse the motivations for keeping the article as it is for such a long time, as I am more focussed on how to fix it. John (talk) 18:58, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Many of these criticisms are nit-picky—and I'm not saying that they're not germane (nit-picks are an important part of the FA criteria!), but they're sort of missing the forest for the trees. Given that she just died and scholarship is likely to shift substantially in the next few years, I'm not sure what the benefit of an FAR at this exact point, weeks after her death, is going to be, versus workshopping stuff on the talk page and inviting interested parties/wikiprojects. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ^talk 19:34, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Point taken, User:David Fuchs. (I don't agree that claiming/implying the opposite of what the sources say on two important things about the subject's life is "nitpicky", but there you go.) In suggesting FAR as the next logical step, I was influenced by reading this talk page and observing that ~50% of the discussion is about images, one of the least important things in an article, and also by reading the section #RfC on popularity and support for the monarchy claims in the lead above, where one of my points was raised in July, with no consensus to improve the article, in spite of how obvious it was even ten years ago to reviewers. But as I've said, I don't really care how it is done, and I accept it might take a while, but I do think (as always) it is more of an honour to the subject of an article to present a truthful and well-balanced account of their life, than one which looks like it was written by their fans. This happens to coincide with 1b, c and d of the criteria for FA, so I thought that might be a useful frame for improvement. I would prefer to see change arise organically from the article's usual writers than to give the impression of imposing it from outside. If there is even a start at meaningful improvements prior to 11 October, there will be no need for an FAR. John (talk) 19:50, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I do agree it's a little peacockish and royal-wonkish in general. This is for somewhat understandable reasons in the circumstances, and as a practical matter you might struggle to get timely relief, either by a wholesale change of tone, or getting it off the "recently featured" bar. As is often the case for articles in a particular niche, it attracts editors who are on the one hand sympathetic to the subject, and on the other, are keen to use the "correct" terminology for things, as opposed to that most helpful to the general reader. On both counts, this is exactly why we're instead supposed to follow the sources. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 20:18, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

John, I was influenced by reading this talk page and observing that ~50% of the discussion is about images, is precisely the problem that made me give up. Focusing on substantive issues re WP:WIAFA is probably not going to be possible until the traffic subsides. Wikipedia never ceases to amaze, and I'm personally shocked and dismayed at the volume of this talk page that has been consumed by repetitive posts about images ... at one point (now archived) there were seven different image threads, and we seem to be headed back that direction. We'll be in better shape to address issues here once traffic subsides. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:28, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I think that's exactly right. It won't be back on the front page for the foreseeable future, so the deadline pressure is negligible, even by usual standards for there not being such. The image-chat is rather bizarrely intense, but short of giving them their own talk page (or vice versa), then yes, just ride it out, and likewise any other recentist-related issues. I don't think that precludes us from leaf-by-niggling other matters, but as I said above, I'd strongly suggest splitting them up topically. If we try to have an FAR-style "500 Things I Hate About This Being a FA" section, it'll get very unwieldy. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 23:14, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I've been trying to focus on keeping the talk page size manageable by archiving where possible, so we can see what's left, and thankfully, both Guerillero and Wehwalt have been helping out on that front by closing off done items. I suspect in another week it will be easier to proceed with the real improvements. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:14, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

For some reason, it has become common for articles about people to near immediately change the infobox image after the death of a person. Personally, I only somewhat understand it, but that has been the trend. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:00, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

• Just to be clear, and save me reading through the entire article again, am I right that no progress at all has been made towards fixing any of these issues? John (talk) 13:29, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

It would be best to tackle these issues, one at a time. Attempting to make multiple changes, would likely not succeed. GoodDay (talk) 15:39, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Sounds good. Which one would you start with? The wrong currency one should be easy to address, no? Or the paying off of her son's associate who he says he never met? I don't mind. John (talk) 16:57, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

You can tackle any of them, but I'd advise that you leave alone the bits about the United Kingdom & the other Commonwealth realms. GoodDay (talk) 17:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice. I'm not going to tackle any of them, as I'm just here to review. As I said above, the onus is on the regular editors of this article to fix the errors and faults in it if there is any wish to retain the FA status. You can have the errors and faults, or you can have the bronze star, but I don't think you should expect to have both. John (talk) 17:24, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

I've put a few improvement tags in place; there would be room for lots more I think. Maybe the tags will trigger work to start improving the state of the article. Otherwise (and we're leaving it late in the day), we can start at WP:FAR as early as tomorrow. John (talk) 16:53, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Done. John (talk) 06:37, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

The tag in the lead is not justified. Even the most dismissive of the sources still says support ran at above 60% for decades with support for a republic at 20% or lower. DrKay (talk) 16:31, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Does it say "remained consistently high"? Or is that your interpretation of it? And how does it fit with a source titled "Poll: Dramatic decline in support for monarchy in decade since Diamond Jubilee"? Since we're discussing it at FAR, let's continue there. John (talk) 21:58, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

I wrote that before seeing that you removed the article improvement tag "failed verification", so you must think it's fine. Fair enough, I won't edit war with you. But maybe that's the problem, if we have an article written and maintained by editors who think the best way to summarise these sources is "remained consistently high", and this is how it's ended up. I hope that it will benefit from some fresh eyes over there. All I want, as I imagine you do too, is for this article to be a good and fair reflection of the life of one of the last century's most interesting figures. John (talk) 22:05, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Hey @John. I think the onus is not exclusively with the regular editors to fix. Per WP:FAR, "concerned editors attempt to directly resolve issues with the existing community of article editors".

Considering that this thread is more than three thousand words long, I think the existing community has addresssed your concerns to a degree and attempted to resolve issues. Although this doesn't necessarily mean it has modified what you wanted modified. But I can see you feel passionate about this project. Thinker78 (talk) 22:21, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

If volume of discussion was our metric, I'd agree with you. But as far as I'm aware, none of these issues has been resolved in three weeks. Not even the currency one. Surely folk would want this article to be as good as it can be? And the best articles arise out of a dialectic process. Let's see what the FAR community thinks about it. John (talk) 22:30, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

I beg your pardon, DrKay has removed the Manchester factoid. Good work. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. John (talk) 22:38, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

I agree with user:Thinker78 that the onus isn't on regular editors to fix, in fact I'd suggest wikipedia policy disagrees here as WP:OWN makes rather clear that nobody "owns" an article, generally this comes up to point out that they can't shut other people out from editing and they still must abide by wikipedia policies, but I'd argue that the logical conclusion is that no specific person has an onus to fix an article, and I'm pretty sure other wikipedia policy backs this up, anyone interested is welcome to contribute to articles but nobody has an onus to.

That said, you are welcome to make edits, clearly you've read pretty thoroughly through this article and are knowledgeable on the subject, so you are an as suitable person as any to help in the monumental task of improving it!

I will say, I think the focus on the star is silly. Our primary goal shouldn't be about rating articles (either giving them ratings or removing them), and it seems like you are trying to use FAR as some sort of punitive/motivative measure against "regular editors", but such an idea falls apart given that nobody has a personal responsibility to 'fix' the article. Really, our focus should be on improving the article.

There is a fair bit of traffic still, and this is a big article, with a lot of topics that link into it. Here is my suggestion: For small tweaks, like $->£, lets go ahead and do the changes as we find them. For the many bigger problems, why don't we put together a numbered list of overall issues, or perhaps even better try using subsections in the talk page to have a slightly organised discussion, then people can jump to the thing they're thinking of tweaking, and we can tackle them together. 90.198.253.144 (talk) 14:15, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Head of the Commonwealth

@Wikiaccount03: Go through Talk:Elizabeth II/Archive 43, where the matter was brought up multiple times. Nobody opposed the set up suggested by User:GoodDay back then. With regards to how Template:Infobox royalty works, the "title" parameter is for Principal substantive title but it must be omitted if any one "succession(X)" field would be identical to it. The "succession" field deals with Primary substantive hereditary titles, and is used for almost every single king or queen on whom we have an article. Thus, there's no need to create a duplicate by including the same thing under the "succession" parameter and then under the "title" parameter. Head of the Commonwealth is a position that is not hereditary, so it cannot be placed under "succession". The only place where it would fit would be under "title". And there's no such thing as "King/Queen of the Commonwealth realms". No such title 'officially' exists to the best of my knowledge. There is King/Queen of the United Kingdom, King/Queen of Canada, etc. as these are sovereign states and are not necessarily grouped together; they have separate governments and separate monarchies in essence (Monarchy of the United Kingdom, Monarchy of Canada, Monarchy of Australia, etc.). They only happen to share the same head of state. That's it. Keivan.f^Talk 06:03, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

There's no such title or position called King or Queen of the Commonwealth realms. Therefore please stop changing Head of the Commonwealth, an organisation which includes the republics. GoodDay (talk) 09:14, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Unnecessary removal of useful information

A clear and precise summary of Her Majesty's various Commonwealth realms was replaced with a link to another article about her various realms at 01:25, 20 September 2022. The reason given was supposed difficulty of readability on mobile devices, which is simply untrue. The new format is less concise and detracts from the overall quality of the article. This change should be undone Timothy N-F (talk) 11:36, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

No, it absolutely shouldn't be. There is a separate article listing her various realms, so there is absolutely no need to clutter the infobox with an awkward list of dozens of countries (see MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE: When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article (an article should remain complete with its summary infobox ignored, with exceptions noted below). The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.). The new format is perfectly concise and, I would argue, improves the overall quality of the article. I do believe the note explaining the situation regarding her realms should be restored, however. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 21:52, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Also, Timothy N-F, content should follow the principles of WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. DeCausa (talk) 07:17, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

The new format is unclear and misleading, it suggests that her role as Queen of various Commonwealth realms were in some way ancillary to her title of Queen of the United Kingdom, when in fact these titles were all held independently. The previous format was used for years without issue, and only appears to add clutter when it isn't collapsible (as it originally was, but I couldn't work out how to restore that feature). The Collapsed list should remain, but the link to the article should be included also for additional information. It should not be necessary to seek out an additional article to understand the complete scope of her reign Timothy N-F (talk) 10:10, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

@Timothy N-F:, I didn't like the changes made either last month. But, that's what a majority of editors apparently wanted. So, it's best to accept the changes. GoodDay (talk) 11:15, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Legacy

The style wives of British kings is niw 'Queen Consort' and no longer 'Queen' out of respect of Elizabeth II, who is still considered the Quuen by the British public. 2A00:23C7:6482:AA01:98EF:15EA:7F25:9891 (talk) 17:28, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

From what I have read from articles after Victoria's death, Queen Consort is usually used for about a year to differentiate the two individuals but then the "consort" title is dropped. Wives of King have always in the past been title as simply "HM The Queen". Dbainsford (talk) 18:06, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Camilla's future title is as yet undecided as clarified in her Wikipedia page, although she is currently being styled as "The Queen Consort", the question of if she will be referred to as "Her Majesty the Queen" is still being determined, and no official position exists for it yet, although traditionally this is what happens. 90.198.253.144 (talk) 10:21, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

All queen consorts have been adressed as 'Queen'. Similar to how all queen regnants have also just been adressed as 'Queen'. She will stop being referred to as 'Queen consort' when it will no longer cause any confusion to adress her as 'the Queen'. EmilySarah99 (talk) 06:12, 23 October 2022 (UTC)