Talk:Donald Trump/Archive 184

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 December 2024

Change the following biased sections to the more neutral language proposed below:

1. Original: "Trump's politics and rhetoric led to the Trumpism movement. Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged, racist, and misogynistic."

  Replace with: "Trump's policies and rhetoric have been associated with the political ideology known as Trumpism. His comments and actions have drawn varied interpretations, with some characterizing them as racially charged and misogynistic."  
  

2. Original: "He promoted conspiracy theories and made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics."

  Replace with: "He was accused of promoting conspiracy theories and making false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency."  
  

3. Original: "After his first term, scholars and historians ranked him as one of the worst presidents in American history."

  Replace with: "After his first term, some scholars and historians ranked him unfavorably compared to other U.S. presidents."  
  

4. Original: "He lost the 2020 presidential election, but did not concede, falsely claiming widespread electoral fraud and attempting to overturn the results, including his involvement in the January 6 Capitol attack."

  Replace with: "He lost the 2020 presidential election but did not concede, instead claiming widespread electoral fraud and taking steps to contest the results. His actions were linked by some to the January 6 Capitol attack."  
  

5. Original: "In 2024, he was found guilty of falsifying business records, making him the first U.S. president to be convicted of a felony."

  Replace with: "In 2024, he was convicted of falsifying business records, making him the first U.S. president to face a felony conviction."  
   Charles337 (talk) 16:11, 4 December 2024 (UTC) Charles337 (talk) 16:11, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

If you care to go through the talk page history, (including the archives) you will see that all of this has been discussed many times, and what we have has been arrived at by consensus. Slatersteven (talk) 16:16, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

All of these changes seem to remove precision and add WP:WEASEL wording, such as His actions were linked by some to the January 6 Capitol attack. "Were linked by some"? He and his team organized the rally and told them to march to the Capitol. Regarding No.5, I don't see any appreciable difference between the current and your suggestion. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

"He lost the 2020 presidential election, but did not concede, falsely claiming widespread electoral fraud and attempting to overturn the results, including his involvement in the January 6 Capitol attack." Yes, he was involved in the January 6 protest, but NOT convicted of inciting a riot which would be him involved with the attack. Remember, he was acquitted of all charges. As for number 5, I understand your point, I just liked the wording better. I would like you to respond to all my changes, as they are all independent from each other. Charles337 (talk) 21:18, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:49, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 December 2024 (2)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Charles337 (talk) 16:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

"The proposed changes aim to present a more factual and neutral narrative, allowing readers to draw their own conclusions based on unbiased information. The original text contains potentially controversial phrasing that could be perceived as unfair or biased by a significant number of readers. These revisions are intended to improve the article's adherence to Wikipedia's neutrality policy."

1. Original: "Trump's politics and rhetoric led to the Trumpism movement. Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged, racist, and misogynistic."

  Replace with: "Trump's policies and rhetoric have been associated with the political ideology known as Trumpism. His comments and actions have drawn varied interpretations, with some characterizing them as racially charged and misogynistic."  
  

2. Original: "He promoted conspiracy theories and made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics."

  Replace with: "He was accused of promoting conspiracy theories and making false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency."  
  

3. Original: "After his first term, scholars and historians ranked him as one of the worst presidents in American history."

  Replace with: "After his first term, some scholars and historians ranked him as one of the worst presidents in American history."  
  

4. Original: "He lost the 2020 presidential election, but did not concede, falsely claiming widespread electoral fraud and attempting to overturn the results, including his involvement in the January 6 Capitol attack."

  Replace with: "He lost the 2020 presidential election but did not concede, instead claiming widespread electoral fraud and taking steps to contest the results. His actions were linked by some to the January 6 Capitol attack."  
  

5. Original: "In 2024, he was found guilty of falsifying business records, making him the first U.S. president to be convicted of a felony."

  Replace with: "In 2024, he was convicted of falsifying business records, making him the first U.S. president to face a felony conviction."  
   Charles337 (talk) 16:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

References

 Not done Sounds like whitewashing. ☩ ^{(Babysharkboss2)} 16:26, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:50, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

The job of Wikipedia is to present the facts, and let the reader draw the conclusion themselves.

My proposed edits maintain the facts, while using less biased and untrue statements.

The claim that "After his first term, scholars and historians have ranked him as one of the worst presidents in American history." is contentious. While several surveys of historians and political scientists have ranked Donald Trump among the lower tier of U.S. presidents, it is not universally agreed upon by all scholars and historians. No matter how "whitewashing" you believe it is, would you rather have a Wikipedia filled with biases and untrue statements or one that is too neutral or "whitewashed" as you are equating neutrality with? The facts are still stated, but in a less biased way. Charles337 (talk) 16:52, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

We go by what wp:rs say, not "truth", for example, how is it false to say "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged, racist, and misogynistic.", what is false about that statement? Slatersteven (talk) 16:55, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Please do not encourage misuse of the edit request facility. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:06, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

A lot of your "reputable sources" for this page seem to be incredibly biased media like The Atlantic, The Guardian, CNN, The New York Times, NBC news,I could go on. Bias is a factor that determines if a source is reliable. Charles337 (talk) 17:26, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Unlike your FOX News and your Newsmax which are totally based on facts. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 17:28, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I am not trying to make this political, nor do I support either of those. In the same way I wouldn't use FOX News and Newsmax for the page about Barack Obama, I would not use biased media to report on Donald Trump. Charles337 (talk) 17:31, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

As apposed to the unbiased sources of OANN? ^{Might be smart to just trash this before it gets out of hand.} ☩ ^{(Babysharkboss2)} 17:37, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

In my proposed edit, I used your sources that align with the reliable source policy. The fact that not even one of my changes got any consideration is completely unfair. Charles337 (talk) 17:49, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Bias is not a factor in whether a source is reliable. Accuracy is. See WP:RS and WP:RSP for more information on the policy. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

As it is not a viable edit request, and as this has been hashed and rehashed many times before this, yes it needs closing. Slatersteven (talk) 17:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

The language used in the page is incredibly contentious, this article is not neutral in the slightest. How is it not a viable edit request? Charles337 (talk) 17:45, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Because it has already been rejected (but multiple users). Moreover, this violates WP:EDITXY, as clearly this is a controversial edit. Slatersteven (talk) 17:49, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I see where the confusion is. Wikipedia itself does view bias as an important factor when determining the reliability of a source. While it’s true that sources may have inherent biases due to their perspectives, Wikipedia prioritizes using sources that are as neutral and balanced as possible to ensure the content reflects a fair representation of information.

In Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View (NPOV) policy. This policy is fundamental to Wikipedia’s standards and requires that content be written without bias, reflecting a balanced overview of all significant viewpoints on a topic, supported by reliable sources. According to the NPOV policy, "All encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view" and "Articles must fairly represent all significant views that have been published by reliable sources" (Wikipedia:Neutral point of view).

So, while Wikipedia does not disregard sources with any degree of bias, it emphasizes that sources should meet high standards of reliability, including factual accuracy and neutrality. Content should be drawn from sources that adhere to these standards to ensure that Wikipedia articles are as unbiased and objective as possible. Charles337 (talk) 18:05, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

According to the NPOV policy, "All encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view" and "Articles must fairly represent all significant views that have been published by reliable sources" (Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). I do not see adherence to this policy in this page. Charles337 (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

And that's exactly what we do. What's your point? LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 18:17, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I see one point of view. That Trump was a bad president and did pretty much nothing good during his presidency. On the whole article, not only is the way in which it was written not written from a neutral point of view and makes untrue statements (which is what I addressed with my proposed changes), it doesn't align with the policy "Articles must fairly represent all significant points of view that have been published by reliable sources." as is required in the NPOV policy (Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). If you want I can quote some points of view that have not been fairly listed along with the negative ones. "The economy grew at a rate of 4.2 percent, the fastest pace in nearly four years" — The Wall Street Journal.

"The tax cuts have brought economic growth, higher wages, and more investment into our economy" — The Washington Post.

"The First Step Act is a step forward for criminal justice reform that is long overdue" — The New York Times.

Sources:Employment Situation Summary." U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Dec. 2019, www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm.

Piel, Matthew. "How the Tax Cuts Are Boosting the Economy." The Washington Post, 15 Jan. 2018, www.washingtonpost.com/tax-cuts-economic-growth.

Smith, John. "Trump Signs Landmark Criminal Justice Reform Bill." The New York Times, 21 Dec. 2018, www.nytimes.com/trump-first-step-act. Charles337 (talk) 18:51, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 December 2024 (3)

I am updating the nomination for Trump and Vance. Both received the New York State Conservative Party nomination in August 2024. EliTfab01 (talk) 23:05, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

On Saturday, August 17, 2024, at the Milleridge Inn in Jericho, New York, the New York State Conservative Party officially nominated former President Donald J. Trump for President and Senator J.D. Vance for Vice President at their Presidential Nomination Convention. Congressman Jim Jordan (R-OH) accepted the nominations on behalf of Trump and Vance, who were unable to attend due to their campaign schedules.

Not relevant to this article. Try Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign or 2024 United States presidential election in New York. Zaathras (talk) 23:19, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 December 2024

Change: Trump's politics and rhetoric led to the Trumpism movement. Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged, racist, and misogynistic. He promoted conspiracy theories and made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. After his first term, scholars and historians ranked him as one of the worst presidents in American history. He lost the 2020 presidential election, but did not concede, falsely claiming widespread electoral fraud and attempting to overturn the results, including his involvement in the January 6 Capitol attack. In 2024, he was found guilty of falsifying business records, making him the first U.S. president to be convicted of a felony. He faced more felony indictments related to his interference in the 2020 election and his handling of classified documents, which were dismissed after the 2024 election.

To: Trump's administration saw significant economic growth, with reports highlighting a growth rate of 4.2%, the fastest in nearly four years. The 2017 Tax Cuts and Jobs Act was credited by supporters with boosting economic growth, raising wages, and attracting investments. Additionally, Trump's First Step Act was recognized as an important step toward addressing certain issues in the federal prison system and providing rehabilitative opportunities. While these policies were praised by some as beneficial for the economy and criminal justice reform, Trump's administration was also marked by highly polarizing rhetoric and actions that have been characterized as racially charged, racist, and misogynistic. He promoted conspiracy theories and made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. This dichotomy contributed to the rise of the Trumpism movement. After his first term, scholars and historians ranked him as one of the worst presidents in American history. He lost the 2020 presidential election, but did not concede, falsely claiming widespread electoral fraud and attempting to overturn the results, including his involvement in the January 6 Capitol attack. In 2024, he was found guilty of falsifying business records, making him the first U.S. president to be convicted of a felony. He faced more felony indictments related to his interference in the 2020 election and his handling of classified documents, which were dismissed after the 2024 election.

For the original content, please retain the sources already cited in the article. For the new material I am proposing, please refer to the following sources:

Employment Situation Summary." U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Dec. 2019, www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm.

Piel, Matthew. "How the Tax Cuts Are Boosting the Economy." The Washington Post, 15 Jan. 2018, www.washingtonpost.com/tax-cuts-economic-growth.

Smith, John. "Trump Signs Landmark Criminal Justice Reform Bill." The New York Times, 21 Dec. 2018, www.nytimes.com/trump-first-step-act. Charles337 (talk) 02:09, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

First paragraph (lead) amendment proposal

I am proposing an amendment to the first paragraph of the lead.

Old version: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. He won the 2024 presidential election as the nominee of the Republican Party and is scheduled to be inaugurated as the 47th president on January 20, 2025.

New version: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who is the president-elect of the United States and who is expected to be inaugurated as the 47th president of the United States on January 20, 2025. A member of the Republican Party, Trump previously served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021.

Rationale: I thought that by MOS, the highest-ranking position goes first. In this case, wouldn't the office of president-elect go before his presidency? Yes, I get that he isn't sworn in as president yet, but this irks me (though apparently no one else.) ItsABlackHole (talk) 01:13, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposes to supersede current consensus item 50. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:33, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. President-elect isn't an office or a position, and, even if it were, it wouldn't outrank president. That position is held by Biden until noon, January 20. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:42, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

PEIS revisited, yet again

According to my experimentation, the addition of ~12 typical-sized citations would cause the article to exceed the system-imposed WP:PEIS limit. When that happens, templates near the bottom of the article start breaking with an error message. Otherwise, the article is fine; nobody is even aware there's a problem unless they scroll down there and see the message. Still, it's a problem worth addressing and I think it's better to be proactive than reactive about this. Possible solutions:

• Reduce WP:OVERCITE.
• Remove content, with the associated citations.
• This was a recurring problem in the past (see archive). Eventually, someone removed one or more navboxes at the bottom, which freed up a huge amount of PEIS. I don't know if there is more potential reduction in that area.

Other kinds of templates will also contribute to PEIS, but I don't know how much without looking into it more.

Anyway, the PEIS limit would appear to impose an arbitrary upper limit on article size, assuming the number of citations is roughly proportional to article size—and this article is very close to that limit. Maybe that's not all bad? ―Mandruss ☎ 11:35, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Lots of overciting, been meaning to tackle it but it's a lot of reading. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Did the change to short footnotes cause any part of this? If so I'm sorry. I will try to lessen overcites when I run across them. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:48, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I see a total of six footnotes. Not a significant contribution to the problem. Thanks for asking. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh boy. Page size said 15672 words today, which is over the top limit at WP:SPLIT. I have never seen an article fail but golly, I'm retracting my proposal to rewrite Early life without prejudice. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm possibly looking in the next weeks at proposing we apply The Earth Test, which should be appropriate given the extensive use of Template:Main. Does anyone here have initial rejections of this as my activities are lining up with that direction. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 11:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Looks like an arbitrary limit, and Wikipedia hates arbitrary limits. Why not get us as far as possible into summary style and then see where we are? That might well be all we need in the area of article reduction. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Before we can summarize, we need to know how much detail the summary should contain. Two sections summarizing their main articles in the same number of words will certainly violate NPOV by giving undue weight to a topic. When we know how many words will cover the subject overall, when we are summarizing a section we can know if we are allocating 5% or 10% of the wordcount and be make decisions on detail of summary that align with NPOV. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:33, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Update: Edits have increased the ~12 to ~37. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I would support a consensus item asking for editors' care with minimal article size and extra citation. Have you ever had one of those before? (I can see that article size has been a problem for at least about seven years.) -SusanLesch (talk) 23:13, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I think we've found that vague consensuses aren't of much value. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:03, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

I would change my edits if I even knew about the problem (and did just above). I can try to think of something un-vague. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

You are an unusual editor. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:13, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Aren't we all. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:22, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Update: Edits have increased the ~37 to ~68. If anyone thinks it would help as we move into his second term, I could track this on an ongoing basis a la #Tracking lead size. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:50, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it's useful. Can we pin the section? Not meaning to burden you, can you add the number of citations (or approximate citations remaining), and the prose total size? -SusanLesch (talk) 16:14, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Done at #Tracking article size. Pinning is not necessary when the section contains no timestamps. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:32, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Trumps felon status should be added to his intro summary

This is literally done for everyone on Wikipedia except for Trump. This is a wilful hiding of information that is favorable to Trump and hides this important information from his google search summary. Please add, convicted felon to his intro to show an unbiased article. 2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3 (talk) 15:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

is it? Slatersteven (talk) 15:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

It is in the lead, in the final paragraph. A recent discussion concluded it shouldn't be in the first sentence. — Czello ^(music) 15:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

no, per MOS:CRIMINAL. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 10:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

^ 2601:280:5D01:D010:ADA6:3506:15FF:D881 (talk) 08:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

yes it should be added plus president 45 and 47 :) 2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B (talk) 03:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Please remove any terms referring to Trump as a "felon" or "convicted felon" from the lede and anywhere else throughout this page. Trump is not a "felon" or even a "convicted felon" until the JUDGE that is actually overseeing the case CONVICTS him and SENTENCES him. THAT HASN'T HAPPENED YET. This is how the legal system actually works for those who do not know.

Any publication, news outlet or otherwise, is actually guilty of LIBEL for referring to someone who hasn't been convicted and sentenced BY THE JUDGE as such. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 01:44, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect, per Wikipedia content policy. See WP:TRUMPRCB for elaboration on this point. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:57, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

More specifically, the policy at WP:BLPCRIME addresses this. It says nothing about sentencing. He has been convicted. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:18, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

He has not been convicted. The jury has merely rendered a verdict. The judge can still throw away that verdict.

Trump is not a convicted felon. McDonaldsGuy (talk) 21:46, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

And please refer to WP:SHOUT. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

And even Wikipedia's definition of convict says he has to be sentenced as well:

"A convict is "a person found guilty of a crime and sentenced by a court" Convict - Wikipedia

AND sentenced by a court. AND, not OR. Because a jury cannot "convict" only a JUDGE can. If you want to know why Trump won, this is why. McDonaldsGuy (talk) 21:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia may not be used as a source for itself. Please provide reliable sources for your claim that Trump has not been convicted, or refer to WP:NOR. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:56, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

This source good? Official Justice dept website

https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-609-evidence-conviction 2600:1700:95FB:5120:3CD6:700D:15A0:DF96 (talk) 01:03, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

No. That source says nothing about Trump. See WP:SYNTH. Looking for reliable sources that say something like, "Trump has been found guilty but not convicted." ―Mandruss ☎ 06:04, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

"In United States practice, conviction means a finding of guilt (i.e., a jury verdict or finding of fact by the judge) and imposition of sentence."

That says it all. He is not a convict. McDonaldsGuy (talk) 12:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

You're confusing the noun with the verb. A jury found Trump guilty of 34 felony counts, i.e., he was convicted of a felony. That makes him a felon. The judge hasn't sentenced him yet, therefore he's not a convict, i.e., under sentence for a crime, which is exactly what Convict says. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 00:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I would be ready with updates for the 'Donald Trump convicted felon' part. Donald Trump's New York hush money case has been called off as the court decides how to move forward. The Trump Manhattan Fraud Case brought forth by Alvin Bragg has been stayed. It is indefinitely 'adjourned' as the Trump legal team moves to outright dismiss the case. More sources will follow this continuing development. Donald Trump's hush money sentencing is called off Daily Mail. "The case could be delayed until after Trump exits the White House in four years or be dismissed outright." 104.230.247.132 (talk) 13:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

The Daily Mail is not a reliable source. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 13:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Here are USA Today and Bloomberg for more sources. There are many more. Trump's Nov. 26 hush money sentencing in NY called off without explanation Bloomberg. "Whether Justice Juan Merchan decides the hush money case should proceed to sentencing, gets delayed for four years or is simply dismissed outright is an open question hanging over the president-elect."

Donald Trump's Nov. 26 sentencing in hush money case on hold as prosecution due to weigh in USA Today. "President-elect Donald Trump's Nov. 26 sentencing date in his New York hush money case is on hold as prosecutors face a Tuesday deadline to advise the judge on how to proceed in light of Trump's election victory." 104.230.247.132 (talk) 14:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

The only thing that might affect "convicted felon" is a successful self-pardon. Per policy, we will look to reliable sources as to whether that means he was never convicted—our personal reasoning is irrelevant, as are (as I understand it) legal sources that don't specifically talk about Trump. Anyway, we are probably at least six months away from even considering a change, so this is more than a little premature. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate it. I would imagine the change will occur in under 9 weeks or before January 21th, 2025, possibly sooner. I guess it's a wait and see. Cheers. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 14:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I mean pardons can't erase historical events, just the present definition. If he self pardon it should be noted he self pardoned. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 12:41, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

"A jury found Trump guilty of 34 felony counts, i.e., he was convicted of a felony."

Juries do not convict. Only a judge can do that. McDonaldsGuy (talk) 12:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Hello please reason with me. Where it says "2024, he was found guilty of falsifying business records,[e] making him the first U.S. president to be convicted of a felony." Please someone correct me If Im wrong but shouldnt the second part of that sentence have a cited source just like the first part of the sentence does? How about replacing the second part of the sentence with ",making President-elect Donald Trump the first convicted felon to hold the White House, after beating Democratic candidate Kamala Harris to return to office after leaving in explosive fashion four years ago." That is updated and factual. If no one disagrees with my comment does that make it the consensus? JaneenGingerich (talk) 07:47, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

“First convicted felon as president” placement.

The Felony thing in like the opening sentence or second sentence I think is excessive, where it was before was next to the stuff about Stormy Daniel’s/Insirrection/etc. that is more logical, but someone reverted it and added it back to the first part. It’s one of those things where we gotta figure out how to level the weight, there’s a whole part in the lead right now addressing all the stuff so I think that’s fine but I would like to hear some unbiased consensus. Eg224 (talk) 22:00, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Editors can argue DUE or UNDUE all day long, but the policy is sufficiently vague that, in reality, it comes down to how much one hates/loves Trump and how much they let that affect their Wikipedia editing. I hate Trump immensely (making me just a terrible person, probably possessed by demons) but I don't let it affect my editing. And this just feels like POV-pushing that high in the lead. I'm happy with it where it is at this moment, in what is currently the fourth paragraph of the lead. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it’s perfect. definitely feels biased to have it in the opening, the first president without prior experience isn’t as much so. I think that’s alright since it compares him to past Presidents in the next part too, and is talking about being the 45th/47th president Eg224 (talk) 22:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I believe you are making a mistake. He can not be labeled a "convicted felon" as long as his appeals processes are unconcluded. The fact that courts have granted the appeals indicates that they believe he has a chance of having the rulings reversed. 99.33.126.209 (talk) 05:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I believe you are mistaken. WP:BLPCRIME: "A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law." NOT: "A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law and all available appeals have been exhausted." ―Mandruss ☎ 06:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Look, the facts are that Trumpty-Dumpty being convicted on felony counts will never be as important as his presidencies. His political career will be the most important thing to impart, not the tax evasion or fraud or whatever the hell it was NY prosecuted him for. Not to say that it isn't important enough to be mentioned in like the fourth paragraph, but his political career is the most important thing to note. Hate to get all Orwell on ya'll, but some animals are more equal than others. BarntToust 02:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

A person becomes a convicted felon the instant the conviction is handed down. Sentencing does not matter. Appeals do not matter. The only criterion for "convicted" is the conviction itself. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think a lot of people can't get past intro so I think it's time to make a change because it needs to be updated anyway because of current events. We can finally all table it if "2024, he was found guilty of falsifying business records,[e] making him the first U.S. president to be convicted of a felony." Gets changed to " 2024, he was found guilty of falsifying business records,[e] making President-elect Donald Trump the first convicted felon to hold the White House, after beating Democratic candidate Kamala Harris to return to office after leaving in explosive fashion four years ago." Or something close to that and if it doesn't get changed shouldn't there be a cited source for the whole sentence considering so many different opinions on what really makes him a convicted felon? Am I wrong or? JaneenGingerich (talk) 08:02, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

The weight and emphasis given to facts in the lede should reflect that given in the body. Given the weighting currently seen in the body, a high placement is appropriate. If editors want to move it down, they should contest the weighting given in the body. That is the place to evaluate DUE/UNDUE. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Thought experiment, not an actual proposal: (1) Go through the lead and make a list of the discrete topics therein. (2) Find the related body content for each item and count the words therein (i.e., weight), updating your list with those numbers. (3) Sort the list by descending word count. (4) Restructure the lead according to your sorted list.

I think you'll find that your new lead lacks all structure and organization. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

It's true that the lede serves functions beyond being a weighted summary (e.g. contextualizing the subject, establishing notability) which gives it some structure and organization. I did intend to sidestep the wordcount weighting critique by mentioning emphasis, e.g. whether a topic is given its own heading, how high in the article/section it is, whether it is a summary or example as well as just the importance the article ascribes.

On my broader point, what do you understand as the relationship between the lede and body re; WP:DUE? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 05:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't. Frankly I think you're putting too fine a point on it, considering all the other issues going unaddressed, such as article length. We've been discussing that for years without significant progress. We need to get the body into summary style, gutting much of it, and we need more smart guys like you to help with that. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:03, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that length is a very big issue. I also think if editors want to focus on other issues, such as emphasis, they should do it in a different way.

I'm working on Public image of Donald Trump at the moment before summarizing it in this article, I'll be interested to see how that goes before taking on a meatier section. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

"In 2015 he launched a a presidential campaign" in the lead

The following sentence was added recently:

In 2015, he launched a presidential campaign that led to the Trumpism movement.

Challenged here, new version:

In 2015, he launched a presidential campaign that led to the Trumpism movement, and subsequently won the 2016 presidential election.

Partially reverted here, splitting up the sentence and moving the second clause into the next paragraph:

In 2015, he launched a presidential campaign that led to the Trumpism movement.
Trump won the 2016 presidential election.

My edit based on body text, moved into the fourth paragraph which describes some of the rhetoric:

Beginning with his 2016 presidential campaign, Trump's politics and rhetoric led to the creation of Trumpism.

Partially reverted here, leaving the above-cited sentence which IMO isn't leadworthy. Comments? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:24, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

It will be helpful if you clarify why you don't think content is "leadworthy" so editors can evaluate your reasons. Not intending to put burden on you. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:35, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Burden — huh . The stated intent for trimming the lead of much of the content that I consider vital to understand Trump's vita and obsessions (e.g., having won the 2016 election while losing the popular vote by 2.9 million) was reducing its length. Adding redundant information after the trim seems a tad counterproductive. The lead says that Trump was president from 2017 to 2021 and that he won the 2016 presidential campaign; do we need to say that he campaigned to become president? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:27, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

To it, it makes sense to mention the campaign insofar as we introduce the populist, nationalist, and other positions that were so closely associated with it. This info is notable because it was a break with Republican orthodoxy at the time, and gained Trump much of the initial support that became his movement, which should be mentioned in the same sentence. I made a proposal for adding a brief description of Trumpism above, but a short list could just as well be attached to the description of his 2016 campaign. — Goszei (talk) 18:42, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

this went even worst from the last time I could edit. Chronologically, on lead, the first political campaign is a black hole. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 08:51, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposed editnotice

Rollinginhisgrave suggested an editnotice which is a bright idea new to me. I installed one on my user page: SusanLesch. No tit for tat, no coercion, or behavioral suggestions, just information. I realize we already have three editnotices hogging the entire first screen of this article. Can we make room? -SusanLesch (talk) 15:56, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Same rationale as here. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:03, 27 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: I didn't realise how long the three current edit notices are. They are so long, you have to scroll. I don't think any are being read, but they are all more important than this notice and should be above be placed above it. I think if we added this note then, it may ironically only serve to bring us closer to breaking templates. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 16:27, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

  @Rollinginhisgrave well how about we get some more people approved to edit. I don't know how to edit but figured it would be pretty easy for y'all to just change it for me since I'm not allowed to edit the article? can you at least acknowledge that the whole sentence should be cited instead of just part of it JaneenGingerich (talk) 16:50, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi JaneenGingerich, I'll discuss this further with you on your user page if that's okay. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 16:52, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave yes that's perfect thank you! JaneenGingerich (talk) 16:53, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposed rewrite of lede

Moved from Talk:Donald Trump#Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 November 2024

Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, businessman, and media personality who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021 and won the 2024 presidential election as the Republican nominee. He is set to be inaugurated as the 47th president on January 20, 2025.

Trump graduated with a degree in economics from the University of Pennsylvania in 1968. He took over his family’s real estate business in 1971, renaming it the Trump Organization. The company became known for real estate development and branding. Trump also gained public recognition as the host and producer of the reality television series The Apprentice from 2004 to 2015.

He launched his first presidential campaign in 2015 and won the 2016 election. His administration focused on tax reform, deregulation, trade policy, and immigration. Trump appointed three justices to the Supreme Court and pursued significant changes to U.S. foreign and domestic policy, including renegotiating trade agreements and withdrawing from several international accords. His term was marked by notable events such as a trade dispute with China, tensions with North Korea, and the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Trump ran for re-election in 2020 but lost to Joe Biden. After the election, he challenged the results, citing allegations of voter fraud, which were dismissed by courts. His tenure and rhetoric remained polarizing, inspiring strong support from his base and criticism from opponents. He was impeached twice during his presidency but was acquitted both times by the Senate. In 2024, Trump campaigned again for the presidency, emphasizing issues such as the economy, energy policy, and border security. His victory in the election secured his return to the White House. 70.51.245.90 (talk) 19:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

What are editors thoughts, not necessarily on the whole thing but also on components. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:11, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm just trying to imagine how this would fit into our consensus process. Say we reached a consensus on a lead rewrite. Then, no change to the lead would be possible without a prior new consensus. If you can suggest a way to do this without throwing out the long-standing process, I'm all ears. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:59, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I can't imagine there will be much support for a complete swap; if there somehow is we can come to that bridge when we get there. What there may be is support for elements and emphasis; a small example is saying he received a "degree in economics" rather than a bachelor's degree in economics". Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:13, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Then each such element should be addressed separately for the sake of organization. ToC minimization is not a priority. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:16, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I think we need to recognize if we don't invite discussion as to what can be taken from this rewrite, no elements will be discussed. We can't put the cart before the horse; we need to first consider that elements may be addressed before we address them. Conversations can be spun out. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:23, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

That's weird, discussing what we can/should discuss. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:25, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

It is a bit. We know that no action will be taken on the IP's rewrite because they didn't follow correct procedures, it will likely be archived and forgotten. This goes against Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. If the IP had followed correct procedure and proposed the rewrite in a process of consensus, it would look like this. Editors could support the whole rewrite or support parts. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

This lead says too little. He "focuses on" and "emphasizes" issues, but what are his basic stances? He is "polarizing" and inspires "support and criticism", but on what grounds? This is a prime example of what over-trimming a lead to the point that it says almost nothing looks like. Our goal is to write a solid framework for the reader to learn more, not to raise twice as many questions. — Goszei (talk) 01:06, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Your suggestion of a rewrite remove every single meaningfull element of the current lead. Everything becomes bague and opaque. What did he do on tax reform? What did he do on immigration? What about covid? Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 09:00, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the current lead is fine as is. This lead removes mention of his racially charged rhetoric, falsehoods and conspiracy theories, and the January 6 attack, which are very notable and historical things. We have consensus to include those things in the lead as it currently stands, so approving this lead would overturn those prior consensus items and require consensus for every single change to the lead going forwards. BootsED (talk) 13:50, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Support NPOV breath of fresh air that makes our lead look like an annotated dirty laundry list. This <300 word version isn't off-putting and encourages the reader to read the article. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:45, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

oppose this is better suited for the Simple Wikipedia, not this article. too much meaning and context is lost. ValarianB (talk) 16:10, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I think Simple Wikipedia would pass. They prefer facts, too. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:51, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Was this an actual proposal or AI trolling? The phraseology ("became known for", "gained public recognition", "remained polarizing, inspiring strong support from his base and criticism from opponents", "His victory in the election secured his return to the White House") reads like the book blurb of an authorized Trump biography, hazy and whitewashed. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:51, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Biography organization

Hi Space4Time3Continuum2x, I saw you moved the discussion of religion and family back to "Early life and education". I don't think there are any good options here, as the article is not structed as a biography. The article to compare to would be Ronald Reagan, as he is the most recent president that is a featured article (and helpfully he also had a prominent pre-political career). Some thoughts on reorganization to better meet this I'd like to hear your perspective on:

• Break up the section Donald Trump#Wealth, placing most into Business career where it is relevant.
• Break up religion paragraph into the bits relevant to early life, and then a brief discussion in presidency discussing the relevance to his relationship to religion as president.
• Ronald Reagan#Marriages and children is placed a lot more chronologically.

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 18:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I'll get back to this tomorrow, too complicated for my addled brain today. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 19:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm generally not too fond of "one size fits all", including conform[ing] to others on Wikipedia, for example Donald Trump's two predecessors, Barack Obama and Joe Biden. This is the edit that moved "Personal life" to the top of the body on February 1, 2017. I wasn't editing here at the time, briefly looked for discussions in the archive but nothing jumped out at me. I never questioned it because it made sense to me: family, wealth, tabloid and later media personality — it's all interwoven and difficult to separate into business/profession/political positions (whatever the subject is notable for) and personal life with spouse(s)/kids, hobbies, etc. Seven years later one editor shows up, questions it, and it gets fixed a few minutes later (see "MOS Layout", above). Good process — no dillydallying with time-consuming discussions.

MOS:SNO also says: Because of the diversity of subjects it covers, Wikipedia has no general standard or guideline regarding the order of section headings within the body of an article. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:17, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

As I said in the edit summary, Trump's personal details have been part of his public persona for more than 40 years and shouldn't relegated to the end of his bio like an afterthought. I moved them back to the top of the body, along with the "Racial views" and "Misogyny/sexual misconduct" sections that had been newly added to the "Personal life" section. I agree that these two sections also deal with views and conduct predating his first term as president and continued throughout his political career. The "Public image" section is gone, so there's no other logical place for these sections. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm still thinking about the best way to address this. I will narrowly respond in two ways:

• Racial views and misogyny could be folded under a s section 2 heading #Prejudice.
• There is an ongoing discussion at Talk:Public image of Donald Trump#Article scope which is relevant and I hope you'll participate. It's responding to me cutting down the article 20% of its size (seen here) based on the principles laid out at the top of the discussion.

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 20:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Disagree, Space4Time3Continuum2x. I object to organizing this article based on your personal preferences. Please read all of MOS:SNO. Exceptions are given and this isn't one of them. Why didn't you contribute to the MOS Layout thread? -SusanLesch (talk) 20:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I've spent a bit of time thinking through my objection to commenting further at this time, and it has been resolved. Susan sums up my thoughts here. We can reopen to the MOS Layout thread before it's archived to discuss further or simply restore. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:00, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Already gone.[1] ―Mandruss ☎ 21:05, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

My mistake, thanks for the correction. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Mandruss, is there a procedure to restore the MOS Layout thread? I'll assume that Space4Time3Continuum2x was occupied elsewhere and didn't get a chance to weigh in. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

No procedure, just do it (using copy-and-paste) or ask someone to do it. I did it. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

based on your personal preferences — the layout predates my first edit of this article by more than a year. Considering the number of editors who have collaborated on this page, there have been astoundingly few objections to this particular feature (none, until now, that I recall). The full text of MOS:SNO is Wiki-vague, as usual: Because of the diversity of subjects it covers, Wikipedia has no general standard or guideline regarding the order of section headings within the body of an article. The usual practice is to order body sections based on the precedent of similar articles. For exceptions, see Specialized layout below. No general standard or guideline vs. usual practice. I think you may have misunderstood the "exceptions". They are types of articles where layouts are generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow though occasional exceptions may apply. Bolding added by me, i.e., even for these exeptions, where editors are advised to "attempt to follow the generally accepted standard", "occasional exceptions may apply". And about a precedent you cited in "MOS Layout": Barack Obama has an "Early life and career" section with "Family and personal life" following "Education". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

By the time I saw the "MOS Layout" thread, it had already been closed saying Rolling "fixed" the flagged grave violation of — uh — usual practice within minutes. Bold edit, I challenged, needs to be discussed. I've already commented here, don't see any point in reopening "MOS Layout". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

@Space4Time3Continuum2x:

• The edit that moved up "Personal life" is from a blocked possible sockpuppet.
• Donald Trump is a human being like everybody else. What section is it that you want to front load?
• We have some leeway. Do you want to restore a §Public image section?
• We had an objection just yesterday to starting with §Personal details.
• Right you are that MOS:SNO is vague. But it's an indication of why most Wikipedia biographies begin with §Early life. More examples: Louis XIV, Elon Musk, Mao Zedong, Nelson Mandela, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Vladimir Lenin, Charles de Gaulle, Joe Biden and Ronald Reagan. George W. Bush and Barack Obama both have §Personal life higher than I'd like, and they both begin with §Early life and career. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:09, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

• I don't have anything to add here beyond that we still have a section for Public image: Assessments#Public. Content was moved out of #Public image for the reasons laid out in most depth at Talk:Public image of Donald Trump#Article scope; I earnestly hope you both could weigh in at that discussion as it needs more eyes and as you can see it affects this article. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 20:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I looked at the 10 or so edits the alleged sockpuppet made at this article. They all improved the formatting or fixed poor wording, e.g., replacing "2000 presidential candidacy" with "2000 presidential campaign". The "objection" replaced "Personal details" with "Early and personal life" — I can live with that. The editor did not object to the positioning of the material I restored to that section at the top of the body. I don't know what to make of Trump is a human being and front load. Are you accusing me of something? both have §Personal life higher than I'd like — sounds like personal preferences to me. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:41, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Space4Time3Continuum2x? May we close the restored MOS Layout thread? -SusanLesch (talk) 16:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave: No, there's no Public image section, only a Public subsection of Assessment. I won't be contributing to your thread on Article scope which discussed a narrow issue (orange skin). I am spread too thin over several threads. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Space4Time3Continuum2x, nobody is accusing you of anything.

• Your personal preferences show ("I can live with that") same as me (I don't plan to edit Barack Obama or George W. Bush to match my prefs.).
• May we close the restored MOS Layout thread?
• To answer your question, Trump is just a man, and he merits a biography that's no different from everybody else's. (Here's the dictionary definition of front load.) I'm just asking you, what sections do you want to come early? Do you want to add a §Public image section? -SusanLesch (talk) 18:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I've changed Assessment#Public to Assessment#Public image in this diff. SusanLesch It's on me cutting 80% of the article, orange skin is just an example. No fuss if you are spread too thin, what you have been able to spare is appreciated. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Space4Time3Continuum2x, I removed the Religion section because it was word for word the same as a paragraph in Early life. If Religion is one of the sections you want front-loaded then I'll move the first one down (it has all the original refs). I asked for the MOS Layout thread to be archived. Can you please answer which sections you want to appear at the top? Right now we look bad with "Early and personal life: Early life, education, family" which is empty and repetitive. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Space4Time3Continuum2x at this time, we have two editors in favor of the rearranged section order and one against. This is a very very weak majority, especially in light of the long-standing page consensus. How would you like us to proceed? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 17:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Three in favour, with me. Riposte97 (talk) 10:43, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Riposte97, you seem very familiar with Wikipedia's rules, and will understand why a simple +1 is generally insufficient to support a stronger consensus, per WP:NOTDEMOCRACY. Could you elaborate on what your thinking here is, even if in a short sentence or link to a comment? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 11:41, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Sure. I think an orthodox application of MOS:SNO is best here. I hope it will structurally encourage trimming of some of the extraneous trivia in the body, which I see as a chronic problem, though not as acute as in the lead. Riposte97 (talk) 12:56, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

CARES Act in lead

This edit from User:Space4Time3Continuum2x makes little sense, nullifying the largest stimulus package in U.S. history here and simply stating he "downplayed" the pandemic is not a neutral account with WP:DUE. Both should be mentioned in my opinion. Describing the footnote—which are used extensively throughout this lead to explain key acts—as "op-ed" is ridiculous; there is no opinion stated on the matter, it is a fact reverberated on the article linked, of which the wording was based around, and gives key context to the reader as it does with the other acts listed. His main response to the pandemic was the CARES Act, regardless of whether it required bipartisan support or not... Such acts are mentioned at Joe Biden (American Rescue Plan Act) and Barack Obama (American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009), absolutely no reason not to include it here when it was his main official response—focusing solely on his words and not his actions makes little sense here, even if it does elsewhere. Mb2437 (talk) 13:59, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

@Mb2437: you're 100% right, I've added the information. JacktheBrown (talk) 17:23, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

JacktheBrown Best to allow some time in situations such as these to see if other editors want to oppose, otherwise content is going on and off and on and off the page in quick succession, which can raise temperatures. We can wait at least a day to see if consensus gathers. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 17:39, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Mb2437, could you explain (with reference to policies and guidelines) what makes the discussed content DUE or UNDUE? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 17:39, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

The edit reduced his response to the pandemic to merely his comments on its potential impact, rather than his actual response via policy: don't give undue weight to traits unrelated to notability, per WP:BIODD. This legislature was highly notable for being the largest U.S. stimulus bill in history—whether that is a good or bad thing is not implied, simply stated neutrally. The current wording is misleading, suggesting that his only response was to 'play it down' when COVID-19 was arguable the greatest flashpoint in his presidency, comprising of 22% of the prose in his first presidency section (per WP:LEADBIO, the lead should reflect the entirety of the article). As shown in the suggested edit, I do not strictly believe we should remove that point, although the juxtaposition of A to B may fall under WP:PROPORTION, given the CARES bill is more widely discussed in secondary sources: An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject, as well as we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources in WP:UNDUE. It was the most commonly viewed bill throughout 2020 on the Congress website. Google Trends shows the two terms to be relatively even in 2020, although this does not consider the long-term relevance to present day, which proves that such comments will not retain historical relevancy as much as the multi-trillion dollar stimulus package: Well-publicized recent events affecting a subject, whether controversial or not, should be kept in historical perspective, per WP:LEADBIO. The footnote—a consistent detail with the rest of the lead, again WP:DUE not given—was removed on the basis of WP:EDITORIAL, which is nonsense; no persuasive writing or false implications were present. The notability of similar acts are verified on the Barack Obama and Joe Biden articles, where stimulus bills of less significance [2] [3] are discussed in the leads. Mb2437 (talk) 19:21, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Mb2437. Ironically, by not mentioning this in the lead we are the ones downplaying the pandemic, or more specifically the magnitude of the official response to it. I think that both the CARES Act and Trump's personal attempts to downplay the severity of the crisis with his public disputes with health officials, etc. should be concisely mentioned in the lead. — Goszei (talk) 20:12, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

His disputes with health officials could be added to an efn adjacent to the statement of him downplaying the pandemic, keeping in mind this lead is being trimmed in preparation for his second administration, hence the extensive use of footnotes. Should definitely have a couple of lines on the pandemic. Mb2437 (talk) 21:14, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I would be satisfied with that. — Goszei (talk) 21:15, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Mb2437 for laying this out. I appreciate your application of PROPORTION, but it falls short; you identify that we should place emphasis on the COVID pandemic in discussing his presidency, but you don't then continue to see what that section itself places emphasis on. According to my read of the section, him applying pressure to downplay receives the most emphasis (multiple subsections, discussed in others). This contrasts with one sentence on CARES that does not receive particular emphasis or treated as summative of its section. As such, the proposal is at odds with PROPORTION. If you think it should be included, the section on his COVID response should be rewritten. Having the lede develop separately to the body is bad.

On using Google Trends and bill viewcounts here; this is far too crude a method. The chosen phrases are very specific and don't reflect reliable sourcing, but reflect attention. What you should be using is a secondary source that attempts to put his approach to COVID in the perspective of his presidency overall. Once such source would be Public policy and health in the Trump era. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:23, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

In the updated edit suggestion, three examples are given of his downplaying the pandemic, with one example of his policy; this has been designed around the weight given in the section, to satisfy PROPORTION. Mb2437 (talk) 00:52, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

This doesn't explain how we can justify including the CARES act in the lede. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:09, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

There are four examples of policy given in the initial response section: the Coronavirus Preparedness and Response Supplemental Appropriations Act, travel restrictions, declaring a national emergency, and the CARES Act. It would not satisfy PROPORTION to completely avoid mentioning the bulk of that section in the lead, misleading the reader with a simple statement of his downplaying the pandemic. We could simply describe them as "emergency measures" and include all four in a footnote, or select the most impactful piece of legislature; it being the largest stimulus bill in U.S. history seems a pretty logical call for inclusion. Here, it is by far the most widely discussed COVID policy under "Policy and technology response": COVID-19 pandemic in the United States. The source you've listed above is specifically about his health-related policies, stated very clearly in the opening line of the abstract, not his economic policy. Mb2437 (talk) 01:34, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

The paragraph discussing those example policies you list is a minority of the #Initial response section. Further, if It would not satisfy PROPORTION to completely avoid mentioning the bulk of that section in the lead, even more emphasis is given to the White House Coronavirus Task Force. The same amount of emphasis is given to the World Health Organization, Outbreak at the White House and Effects on the 2020 presidential campaign as that paragraph discussing those policies.

Yes, I commented on it as health policy because that is how this article characterizes it, as a function of his public health policy rather than in a discussion of his economic policy. If you would prefer different retrospective sources, it was merely a suggestion. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:39, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

It borders on a lie by omission to exclude any mention of a response while only mentioning his downplaying. We can always change the weights within the sentence/footnotes to emphasize one over the other. — Goszei (talk) 02:49, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Our job is to reflect the weighting of reliable sources. If the most important thing about his COVID response according to them was him downplaying, then that's what we reflect. That's how the body is currently written and the lede should reflect that. The body does not emphasise his economic response. I am planning to review the section on his COVID response at a later time to see if the article's writing actually reflects the weight, but I am currently preoccupied with other parts of the page. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:58, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

We could leave it as:

He responded to the COVID-19 pandemic with emergency measures,<efn|Including the CARES Act, travel restrictions, and establishing the White House Coronavirus Task Force.> and downplayed its severity.<efn|Trump pressured health officials to reduce testing efforts, and health agencies to approve vaccines. The U.S. withdrew from the World Health Organisation in July 2021.>

for now. All headings are concisely noted, with no added detail for each. Its current form is incomplete and does not satisfy any of the policies laid out. Mb2437 (talk) 13:18, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

It is sufficient to exclude the footnotes. If a reader wants to better understand what emergency measures were took, they can read the body the lede is summarizing. There is less emphasis in the body on emergency measures than downplaying, but there is enough to justify inclusion. If you think the CARES Act is very important, see if reliable sources place the same emphasis and then rewrite the body accordingly. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:45, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

If I can ask, why do you think it's important to put the content in footnotes in? The purpose of the lead is a high-level summary; putting large quantities of content in footnotes is still putting it in the lede and still counts for DUE weight. The one sentence on CARES in the body is UNDUE in the lede, whether it is a footnote or not. You can fix this, you just have to rewrite the body to give it more emphasis. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:45, 29 November 2024 (UTC) The addition to the lead was a bold edit that was challenged and shouldn’t have been reinserted for at least 24 hours or until a consensus has been reached. Since it was reinserted by a different editor, I’m not sure what the proper procedure is or should be. It was also undue per MOS:LEAD (the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents) because the CARES Act wasn’t mentioned in the body. Edit history:

1. Cares Act added to lead
2. Reverted
3. CARES Act added to body
4. CARES reinserted in lead

As for the "but Biden" argument: Biden didn’t just sign the American Rescue Plan. It was his plan, presented a week before his inauguration. As for the "Google trends" argument on notability: Really, trending on Google? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:41, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Its lack of inclusion was frankly bewildering, hence why it was not checked beforehand; it has been added since to reflect the suggested change. The Google data proves it has maintained historical relevance amongst secondary sources, and is more than just "trending". Trump was heavily involved in the build-up, negotiations and endorsement of the CARES Act [4] [5] [6] [7] [8], even if signing it into law wasn't relevant enough—either way, the most notable factor is signing the bill, not lobbying for it. Mb2437 (talk) 21:10, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

The current version makes it sound like Trump's administration did absolutely nothing in response to the pandemic. To use a historical parallel, Herbert Hoover did very little in response to Great Depression in terms of direct aid, instead encouraging charities to help people, but he did pass some measures like the Reconstruction Finance Corporation. In the lead of his article, we characterize this as "his response to the depression was widely seen as lackluster". We acknowledge that he was forced to make an official response to the crisis, albeit one considered poor, instead of implying that he did nothing by omission. — Goszei (talk) 21:13, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Updated suggestion

He responded to the COVID-19 pandemic with the CARES Act in March 2020,<efn|This was a $2.2 trillion economic stimulus bill, the largest in U.S. history, in response to the economic fallout of the pandemic.> and downplayed its severity.<efn|Trump pressured health officials to reduce testing efforts, and health agencies to approve vaccines. The U.S. withdrew from the World Health Organisation in July 2021.>

Added important headings from COVID section to the second efn, as well as the month and year as its timeline is important to the response itself. Mb2437 (talk) 21:32, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Trump Covid response — lead whitewash

Our longstanding content was an accurate summary of body content as well as an accurate description of Trump’s response to the pandemic:

He reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread misinformation about unproven treatments.

Somehow this two-day discussion over Thanksgiving (!), involving four (4) editors, went from including the CARES Act in the lead to replacing the longstanding content with this nebulous statement:

He responded to the COVID-19 pandemic with emergency measures, and downplayed its severity.

Aside from MOS:LEAD and the reality in 2020, four editors over two days, including a major holiday, are insufficient participation for changing the longstanding content to a vague "responded with emergency measures and downplayed the severity". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:08, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Consensus seems pretty clear from this discussion that the new version is an appropriate summary.

Reacted slowly is subjective, and 'whitewashes' the administration's reaction. This information was removed long before Thanksgiving, as if that's a valid argument. This efn: <TagNote|Trump pressured health officials to reduce testing efforts, and health agencies to approve vaccines. The U.S. withdrew from the World Health Organisation in July 2021.> is also in discussion. Mb2437 (talk) 18:12, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Reacted slowly: see Donald Trump#Initial response. "Long before Thanksgiving" — due to 3RR and a 1001 edits since November 5 it took me a while to get around to this. The valid arguments are the lead section is ... a summary of [the article's] most important contents and what RS reported. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:22, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

That section does not state he reacted "slowly" at any point with any citations or consensus amongst reliable, secondary sources, it is left for the reader to determine. the lead section is ... a summary of [the article's] most important contents, "He reacted slowly" is not content in the article, thus should be removed from the lead... "He responded to the COVID-19 pandemic with emergency measures in March 2020" is a more appropriate statement, with no editorialising. Mb2437 (talk) 18:29, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

The pandemic and his response to it is a huge deal. Surely there's something better that we can say than "reacted slowly" that is better than merely "downplayed its severity". – Muboshgu (talk) 18:42, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

IMHO, SpaceTime made a good edit and resolved this. Well done. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:19, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Pretty much every sentence and sometimes every word in the preelection lead was discussed and litigated thoroughly. I don't remember how the exact wording came about; I'll go through the archived discussions tomorrow. I also think that "reacted slowly" is a tad pussyfooting around what the [LA Times] called delay[ing] or bungl[ing] basic but crucial steps to contain the spread of infections and prepare the country for a pandemic: our body text says that Trump initially ignored persistent public health warnings and calls for action from health officials within his administration and Secretary Azar. Throughout January and February he focused on economic and political considerations of the outbreak. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 19:48, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Mb2437 ([9]): no consensus in the discussion. JacktheBrown (talk) 20:30, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

@JacktheBrown: There's no consensus for the version you reverted to. The version you reverted was the longstanding one, "trimmed" on November 16 — along with much of the lead content — as "unnecessary details" to read: His reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic has been heavily criticized for being slow and generally imprudent. Please, self-revert. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:57, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

I readded ignored or contradicted recommendations from health officials, used political pressure to interfere with testing efforts, and spread unverified information about unproven treatments, i.e., the longstanding content that had been removed from the lead. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:46, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Please re-write the entire first section.

I have read more than 10,000 biographical articles in Wikipedia, and I haven't seen a single article which is written in a more biased, and pessimistic tone than Donald Trump. Please be professional and at least re-write the entire first section again in a more neutral tone. The entire world is reading this article and it must be written professionally. Thank you. Nir007H (talk) 10:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Its important to mention these things, but the bias on both this page and the election page as well as his campaign page, is widespread. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 10:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

How? Slatersteven (talk) 10:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Because all of them have paragraphs upon paragraphs regarding many allegations, many of which Trump himself has denied. They also excessively refer him to Fascism, and provide far-left and often non-reliable sources for these. Kamala Harris and Joe Biden have their fair bit of criticism, but this is rarely mentioned on their pages and when it is, its usually reverted or downplayed due to 'non reliable sourcing'. Keeping in mind Fox and the like should be considered as reliable as CNN and the like. Its overall quite biased. Dont get me wrong, these things need to be mentioned, but their absolutely has to be more weighting as to criticism of Trump and his Democrat opponents. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 10:28, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Also to quickly add to this, it needs to be mentioned more that Trump has denied Project 2025. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 10:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

See WP:MANDY. The sources are what we go with, not Trump's own claims. — Czello ^(music) 10:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Left sources that go against what the topic at hand himself said? Wikipedia can be interesting sometimes. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 11:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, WP:MANDY and WP:PRIMARY are why we prioritise independent sources. — Czello ^(music) 13:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Completely agree with these criticisms of the article. Please see my added topic which includes three edit requests, for some proposed changes to the opening section. Neutral Editor 645 (talk) 10:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that based on current consensus number 61, that you should review this link: Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias. (Not 100% sure though, so I will leave this thread open.) --Super Goku V (talk) 10:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. I hate Trump and am sad that he won, but this lead is just too much. It discredits Wikipedia's encyclopedic tone for the regular user. At least add a few positive things. Lucafrehley (talk) 10:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Find some. We can't include things that don't exist.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Jesus you are literally a wikipedia editor. Your bias is what we do not need on wikipedia.

For example we could add things like:

The First Step Act, signed in 2018, aimed to reform the federal prison system by reducing sentences for non-violent offenders, increasing funding for rehabilitation programs, and reducing the three-strike rule’s penalty.

the VA MISSION Act, allowing veterans more access to private healthcare and aimed at improving the VA's efficiency and accountability.

Operation Warp Speed facilitated the rapid development, manufacturing, and distribution of COVID-19 vaccines, which reached the public in record time.

just to name a few DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 11:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

As I pointed out in my own topic, this is not about adding "positive things". Trump won an election in 2016 which was widely reported from reliable sources as a complete surprise. Those reliable sources tried to understand why people voted for him. The lead has no direct mention of why he won. While having mention of Russian interference and protests.

This has nothing to do with things being positive or negative, there is a lack of social analysis that doesn't help to present a complex BLP. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 15:44, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I have never seen an article of this scale be so obviously biased and favored against its subject. This bias becomes even more distinguishable when you compare it to other articles such as Joe Biden, who has been heavily criticized even by people on the left. For example, he faced a ton of criticism for the withdrawal from Afganistan (CNN, MSNBC, MSNBC again, CBS, NPR, Associative Press, NYT, etc), yet that is nowhere to be found in the lead. Meanwhile, Trump's lead section will mention every bad thing he did, as well as the opinions of his non-supporters. The opinions of those who support him are not even mentioned. It just comes across as completely lacking integrity. (Discuss 0nshore's contributions!!!) 17:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I would not define it as "biased", those info could be considered notable. But it is surelly tone deaf in trying to give social context to Trump success. Poor writing that actually doesn't even give a change to complex social criticism, for which there are many reliable reportings even from the same major US newspapers used in the current "fact checked" style. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 18:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Nobody rewrites entire first sections (leads). That isn't how Wikipedia works, and Trump would be dead long before we reached a consensus on such a rewrite. See Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

yea, I agree on that, a substantial rewrite is not happening soon. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 18:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

This entire article needs re-written, but the introduction is a total disaster. Even aside from the partisan hackery, it is a hodgepodge of incoherent sentences that look like (and probably were) added disjointedly as time went on with little to no continuity with each other. Most of them are factoids that are irrelevant to a high altitude summary of the man's life and achievements. Embarrassing. The Pittsburgher (talk) 15:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Specific suggestions, please. It's nigh impossible to rewrite an entire lead section to everyone's liking. Simple saying 'rewrite the entire lead' isn't going to get us anywhere. Cessaune [talk] 15:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The idea that a mythical "unbiased" lead section could exist that literally every Wikipedia would agree upon for such a polarizing political figure is absurd and preposterous. People act like shouting "bias"! is some kind of objective statement when it is essentially entirely subjective opinion. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Nir007H: There's only one way to get a re-write. You gotta put forward a proposal & see if it will get a consensus. GoodDay (talk) 03:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I may be drawn and quartered for speaking this heresy. I've long felt Wikipedia content policies are sufficiently vague, complex, nuanced, and self-contradictory as to be extremely vulnerable to the biases that we all have (anybody who claims to be without bias is either lying or completely lacking in self-awareness). That the policies prevent the effects of those biases is largely an illusion and a mass self-delusion. I've advocated massive overhaul of policy to simplify and streamline, and the silence has been deafening. Wikipedia's system of self-selected self-governance simply lacks the capacity for such massive change, and the Wikimedia Foundation will never intervene while Wikipedia is the most popular free encyclopedia on the web.

If this article has been dominated by anti-Trump editors, the solution is more pro-Trump editors, people who are prepared to take the time to learn the policies and how to use them. WP:CONSENSUS is everything at Wikipedia. I've been saying this for many years and it seems to me a large majority of pro-Trumpers lack the energy for anything but arm-waving rants about fake news and the resulting fake encyclopedia encyclopedia (a lazy intellectual cop-out)—merely following their leader's example. I say quit whining whining, put on your big boy pants, and do something that might have some effect. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC) Edited after replies 23:26, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

"It seems to me a large majority of pro-Trumpers lack the energy for anything but arm-waving rants about fake news and the resulting fake encyclopedia—merely following their leader's example." An astute observation that actually reveals the root of the problem: That's all they do because that's all there is to back up their POV. The lead is a dry restatement of dull facts, it only appears unflattering because the man's behavior has been consistently and objectively unflattering. Largely Legible Layman (talk) 16:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I’d say it’s more to do with the polarisation of the American media, and one end/side being deprecated on Wikipedia. Kowal2701 (talk) 16:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Comment I generally stay far away from Trump related articles because of my extremely strong prejudices against the man. But as much as it pains me to say this, I think the lead is problematic. It reads like it was written by the DNC. Most of what is in there belongs in the article. But not all of it belongs in the lead. Clearly I'm not the only one with these concerns as there are multiple editors, in multiple threads on this page raising similar concerns. If the article wasn't linked on the main page right now, I'd seriously consider slapping an NPOV tag on it. Tone matters. The lead reads like an indictment. The laundry list of everything the man has ever been accused of is UNDUE and should be condensed into more general statement noting his controversial history, statements, legal issues etc. -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

the problem is not the list of "negative" actions, which could maybe be condensed just to achieve a better lenght, the problem is that the lead completelly fails to convey why Trump is popular, how he got to power etc etc. It sounds tone deaf and devoided of social analysis. Look at the Hitler lead (not a comparison between individuals) and you can see how it can be done properly. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 14:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that's a very good analysis. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I suspect that the lead as it is in part resulted from having too many cooks in the kitchen. Is there one person who can draft a lead for Trump based on the structure of Hitler's lead for others to review? – Muboshgu (talk) 15:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The current structure seems decent to me for the time being, @Goszei is pointing out a good and clear path forward regarding content that should be added. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 21:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

It’d be so good if this article were actually educational Kowal2701 (talk) 21:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree that this is the best step forward. Kowal2701 (talk) 16:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Support Castlemore7 (talk) 14:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I can imagine you counting the biographical articles you read like pushups "9,998..9,999...10,000! Now I can finally say I have read 10,000 of those! 68.57.163.100 (talk) 04:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I think whatever has been done in the last few days to the lead has made it a lot better. And for those complaining about how stuff is brief, that’s because there’s a lot of stuff to cover without making the lead too long, especially now in his second term there will be more stuff happening. Still, the flow is much improved even if there could be a few tweaks I think it’s heading in the right direction Eg224 (talk) 04:20, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. The heading is very biased. Chuterix (talk) 04:32, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 December 2024

I’m requesting that you update the photo. This is last taken in 2017. It is 2024 and his picture is under the title president elect. He is president elect 2025. So let’s update this please 🙏 and thank you. 204.44.191.18 (talk) 11:08, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done We use the most recent official portrait. A new one is expected after he takes office. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:25, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and he could have almost died and possibly could. For precaution we need to use this "outdated" picture. 2601:483:400:1CD0:25E9:1076:C813:F5F6 (talk) 16:04, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

"Scheduled to be" inaugurated in the lead

Re: [10][11]

As seen in the diffs:

• I changed "is scheduled to be inaugurated" to "will be inaugurated" with the edit summary rationale: "this will happen barring incapacitation or death, both highly unlikely".
• User:Gluonz reverted the change with no edit summary rationale, an apparent instance of "I just don't like it". This kind of revert should be immediately re-revertable in my opinion.

Comments, please. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:38, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

@Mandruss: Hi; I had not actually seen your aforementioned edit. I changed it because I incorrectly assumed that no one had been deliberately supporting the "will" wording over the "is scheduled to" wording. I have changed it back. –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 04:50, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. So it sounds like you had no objection to the new wording, but reverted because you didn't see any "support" for it? The support was implicit in the fact that it had not been reverted. Your proper options were to change it back with a content-related rationale or to leave it alone. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:13, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

@Mandruss: I suppose that I also partially had my own reason (I preferred the other wording due to a lack of guarantee, similarly to with the issue described below), but I had not specifically addressed this when changing the article. I reverted after you started this thread because my feelings about this were not particularly strong (what is meant is quite clear either way). –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 14:49, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Whenever I see "will" in regards to a future event, it's always WP:CRYSTAL. We don't predict the future as anything can happen, however unlikely it may seem. I oppose using will be inaugurated as the word is to be avoided for any sort of future event. Noah, BSBA^Talk 13:20, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Then we'll need to find a way to change the infobox: "Assuming office January 20, 2025". Please go to Template talk:Infobox officeholder and propose changing that heading to "Scheduled to assume office". Let us know how that turns out. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:25, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

The WP policy literally says Dates are not definite until the event actually takes place, as even otherwise-notable events can be cancelled or postponed at the last minute by a major incident whether you agree with it or not. This pretty much precludes using "will". Noah, BSBA^Talk 13:31, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

See my preceding. Obviously the community does not feel that policy should apply to office assumption dates for officeholder-elects. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:38, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

After you succeed in changing the infobox heading, please ensure the article JD Vance is also changed: "He will resign on or before January 20, 2025, when he will be inaugurated as vice president of the United States." My emphasis. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:48, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

VPP discussion started two days ago without notification here: Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#WP:CRYSTAL in officeholder articles and infoboxes. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:19, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Request for change in Current Consensus #13

Since the talk page is currently (as of 21:56 30 November) at 379kb and has 40 open sections, I think it's best to change the archiving time currently outlined in #13 to 7 days, from the current 14 days. This was the set archiving time during Trump's presidency, and I think it is time for us to return to that. Mgasparin (talk) 21:58, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. The linked consensus was for 7 days, and I don't recall when or how the item and the auto-archive parameter got changed to 14. Do you? Doesn't seem like something I would do, being the notorious process wonk around here. I'd be inclined to return to the documented consensus and then people could propose a change from that. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:20, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Here are the changes:[12][13] The first edit was a consensus vio and should not have been allowed without a new consensus. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:40, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I went ahead and corrected the process error:[14][15] ―Mandruss ☎ 06:54, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Mandruss Thanks, yeah I think the change happened somewhere around 2021, after Trump left office. Mgasparin (talk) 05:03, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Childhood

@Space4Time3Continuum2x: I added, and you reverted, two book sources written by Pulitzer-winning journalists. They were consulted because this article is thin on sourcing. I object to your revert of Trump's childhood. Every detail was chosen because, as the man said himself, when he looks at himself in first grade, he's basically the same person. Yes, this is a long article. I have been cutting for the past couple weeks to make room for book sources. Please revert your revert. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:19, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

I still haven't found the edit that cut this text about Trump's four draft deferments, including the one about the bone spurs he may or may not have had: While in college, the past and future Commander in Chief obtained four student draft deferments during the Vietnam War. In 1966, he was deemed fit for military service based on a medical examination, and in July 1968, a local draft board classified him as eligible to serve. In October 1968, he was classified 1-Y, a conditional medical deferment for bone spurs, and in 1972, he was reclassified 4-F, unfit for military service, permanently disqualifying him. That seems a bit more relevant for the past and future Commander in Chief than elementary and high school. "Thin on sourcing" — 834 cited sources? Most of them are newspaper articles because Trump is still making news, and, as biographers keep digging into his past, more details about his past are being reported in newspaper articles and books. Haberman and D'Antonio have written excellent biographies on Trump but quotes such as "a bit of a terror" and details such as commander of A Company and voted ladies' man in his high school yearbook don't belong in an encyclopedia article, IMO. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 23:22, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this is a long article. I have been cutting for the past couple weeks to make room for book sources. is a curious statement, as it sounds like you are trying to implement your failed "eye for an eye" proposal even though said proposal did not gain consensus. Whatever you deleted from the article to "make room" should be restored, and all of this this may be considered disruptive. Zaathras (talk) 23:30, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it sounds like that, and I opposed that proposal. Please make sure you are assuming good faith here. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:46, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Zaathras, I made that WP:SNOW proposal after looking at the article sourcing, seeking advice here on what books to buy, and after discussion. Why bring it up again? -SusanLesch (talk) 00:21, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Because...you're clearly trying to carry it out? You deleted content from this article, added new content, and then demanded that its removal be reversed. The basis for your demand was, quote, I have been cutting for the past couple weeks to make room for book sources. It's not rocket science. Zaathras (talk) 14:22, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Zaathras This is a bit confusing as there's two "basis for her demand": she is laying out merits for the content she added (they are based on high-quality sourcing, which this article is in particular need of given its reliance on low-quality sourcing), and also responding to Space4Time3Continuum2x's critiques of the added content (UNDUE ["childhood trivia"] and added a lot to the byte count). She addressed concerns about DUE and then addressed concerns about byte count. I understand concerns about byte count for Space4 and Susan to be about approaching the PEIS limit. What would be a reasonable response for Susan here in your eyes? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 16:38, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

based on high-quality sourcing, which this article is in particular need of given its reliance on low-quality sourcing. The guideline is WP:RS: "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources". That's what we've been relying on. Please, point out the low-quality sources we are using. For all I know, some may have escaped the eagle eyes watching this article, especially since November 5. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:56, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Some types of sources discusses tiers of quality of reliable sourcing for material. An addition consideration is giving due weight, as sources published further from an event have a better ability to evaluate whether an event was important in retrospect. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 17:22, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

@Space4Time3Continuum2x:

• Curiously, I found the A-company story a parallel to President Trump's reaction to the January 6 attack on the Capitol (he was just sitting in the office). Regarding the 854 citations, Carlos Lozada read 150 books which were "a fraction of the Trump canon". The more familiar we are with that canon the better if you want this article to improve.
• To your point. Agree the draft deferments are important for a Commander in Chief. I've never read what was cut, thank you. Can we combine that lost text with less of the new stuff? -SusanLesch (talk) 00:21, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to get too down on Lozada, but could you clarify from your readings how he treats the books he's reading? We have degrees of reliability on Wikipedia which create hierarchies within the canon; is he doing the same or treating sources as equally valuable? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 11:45, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Entirely off topic, congesting this thread. Disliked Lozada's writing and put him down before 20 pages. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:08, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

A review of Lozada's book: CEU Democracy Institute. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:16, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

If you look at the sources cited in books about Trump, you'll probably find many of them cited in this article, too. Haberman and D'Antonio are journalists who presumable do their own research and interviews but also rely on other journalists' reporting. This is an article about a person who's been in the news for many years, not, e.g., an article about a medical procedure where you need to summarize scientific consensus found in medical journals and/or books written by medical experts. IMO, there are two reasons this article won't be GA-rated anytime soon: neutrality (the alleged anti-Trump bias — if he was a better person, better businessman, or better president, we'd have more positive things to write about) and stability (that went out the window on November 5 and it's been getting trampled ever since). Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:52, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

We are off-topic, if you respond to this or may be best to split it off into its own thread, although given some is a general discussion about bias, it may be best to take it to your talk page for a discussion. I have performed perhaps 4/5 source reviews since coming to this page, and in all but one this article has been more down on Trump than the sources, in one case to the point of inaccuracy. In the exception to this, the sources placed a different emphasis on a "positive" aspect. My analysis hasn't been random sampling, but it certainly seems to be true that the article doesn't place the same emphasis and weights on viewpoints and information as reliable sources, in a way biased against Trump. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:00, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Space4Time3Continuum2x, would you like to restore your text about draft deferments? -SusanLesch (talk) 00:26, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I will note for you both that I removed the draft deferments content after reviewing the weight placed on it in a biography, Trump Revealed. It received far more emphasis in this article's discussion of his early life than it did in the books, so I cut it as given disproportionate weight. With an expansion of the early life section a mention may be merited as giving due weight. Other biographies may give it more or less emphasis. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 05:14, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Space4Time3Continuum2x and Rollinginhisgrave, I propose to cut down what I added to three sentences (and no footnotes). Then one sentence about draft deferment would be about the right weight. Sound good? -SusanLesch (talk) 14:24, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I can't really comment on it further without looking into it. My relevant comment in a previous discussion on the draft's weight is [16]. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 14:37, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I've got the new stuff down to 42 words. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:45, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I have performed perhaps 4/5 source reviews since coming to this page — sounds like random sampling to me but what do I know. The way to handle something like this would be to boldly edit the text with s.th. like "failed verification" in the edit summary or take each inaccuracy directly to the Talk page. Another biased against Trump isn't going to improve whatever — allegedly — needs improving. Please specify which sources you reviewed and found to have been rendered inaccurately in the text.

draft deferments content after reviewing the weight placed on it in a biography. It took my a while to track down the edit that removed the draft deferments and the cited sources (Kranish/Fisher, NYT, and WaPo). I don't see how the "weight" in one 450-page biography on 70 years of a life measures up against the considerable coverage the draft deferments received in RS. SusanLesch, not my text, "the" text. It's been edited quite a few times over the years, with different sources going back to 2011. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:52, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Of the books I checked, D'Antonio gives the most about the draft. He says 60 percent of Trump's peers got deferments, so I don't think we should make much of it. I'll be bold and add minimally to §Early life and education. Please see what you think. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:49, 1 December 2024 (UTC) P.S. The 60% includes special status, not only medical deferment. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:48, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Close to 100% of his peers didn't run for or become president. The exception who did, Bill Clinton#Vietnam War opposition and draft controversy, opposed the Vietnam War but registered for the draft without resorting to bone spurs. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:22, 1 December 2024 (UTC) Forgot the other peer who became president, George W. Bush, whose connections got him into the Texas Air National Guard, fighting the Vietnam War in Texas and Alabama. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:06, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

This is not an improvement, IMO. Before:

He attended the private Kew-Forest School through seventh grade and New York Military Academy, a private boarding school, from eighth through twelfth grade.

After:

Young Trump attended Kew-Forest School, a private college-preparatory school, through seventh grade. He was a difficult child and showed an early interest in his father's business. Stepping in to guide his son's behavior, his father enrolled him in New York Military Academy, a private boarding school, where Trump completed his secondary education, and where he learned to excel in a strict regimen.

Anyone else have an opinion on adding these details? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:57, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Also added He was exempted from the draft during the Vietnam War due to bone spurs in his heels.:

In 1964, Trump enrolled at Fordham University. Two years later, he transferred to the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, graduating in May 1968 with a Bachelor of Science in economics. He was exempted from the draft during the Vietnam War due to bone spurs in his heels. In 2015, he threatened his high school, colleges, and the College Board with legal action if they released his academic records.

-SusanLesch (talk) 19:06, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Of the books I checked Could you clarify which books these were?

Kranish & Fisher, Lozada, D'Antonio, Haberman, Fred Trump, Mercieca. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:35, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Close to 100% of his peers didn't run for or become president. We reflect the emphasis reliable sources place, not the counter-arguments we can put together for why things aren't important.

This is not an improvement, IMO. Could you expand on your thinking here? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:11, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Another editor trimmed the childhood part to Trump attended the private college-preparatory Kew-Forest School through seventh grade. He was a difficult child and showed an early interest in his father's business. His father enrolled him in New York Military Academy, a private boarding school, to complete secondary school; he learned to excel in a strict regimen., and I've just restored the pre-bold edit version for the duration of this discussion, haven't removed the books yet. Difficult child, interested in Dad's business, father enrolling him in school — sounds like an average childhood to me, and all of it just a wordier way of saying "He attended the private Kew-Forest School through seventh grade and New York Military Academy, a private boarding school, from eighth through twelfth grade". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:43, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

NPOV requires we reflect the emphasis of reliable sources. We don't omit information because we don't personally think it should be emphasized. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:02, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

@ValarianB: You just reverted my restoration of mostly longstanding content, i.e., my removal of the childhood trivia boldly added here. Most of the content about Trump's education and medical draft deferments was removed from the article, unchallenged, here. I haven't a clue what our current status is concerning the merits of longstanding content. Was your restoration of the text concerning Trump's childhood years collateral damage while restoring the bone spur sentence? And what is the point of He was exempted from the draft during the Vietnam War due to bone spurs in his heels without the info on the other draft deferments? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:02, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Some comments on how policy and guidelines apply here:

• Wikipedia doesn't really have a concept of trivia in the way you invoke here. MOS:TRIVIA is about sections of disorganised material; it is the lack of integration in a relevant section that makes it trivia. This is clearly in the relevant section (early life). Per my comment above, trivia here cannot be read as a synonym for giving too much emphasis to something insignificant; we can't be the ones to determine that. We have to reflect the emphasis of reliable sources.
• Content being longstanding means very little on Wikipedia. The relevant policy here is WP:EDITCONSENSUS, which makes it clear that any change to content, whether the content is long-standing or not has presumed consensus: "Wikipedia consensus usually occurs implicitly. An edit has presumed consensus until it is disputed or reverted. Should another editor revise that edit, the new edit will have presumed consensus until it meets with disagreement. In this way, the encyclopedia gradually improves over time."

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:42, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

@Space4Time3Continuum2x: I find your comments kinda backwards. D'Antonio says "Trump's record was not especially remarkable. Roughly 10 million men in his age group were not drafted due to deferments and special status." What we've got now covers that he did not serve. Military service isn't an eligibility requirement to be president. On the other hand, not every child is a difficult one and I think it is remarkable that we now have two books supporting his behavioral problems as a youth. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:36, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Sources

Merging together the several disambiguation pages on his presidencies

So far there are 6 disambiguation pages (assuming I'm not missing something), with at least 3-4 more to come when he appoints judges, ambassadors, etc. Each of these dabs only disambiguate 2 entries (first term/second term). It is my suggestion that these disambiguation pages be merged together into a single List of articles on presidencies of Donald Trump, so that it is easier for visitors to navigate instead of at least 10-12 separate dab pages with 2 entries each. What is your opinion? —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 23:34, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

• The dabs so far are: Presidency of Donald Trump, Cabinet of Donald Trump, First 100 days of the Donald Trump presidency, Inauguration of Donald Trump, Political appointments by Donald Trump, Presidential transition of Donald Trump —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 23:34, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

CX Zoom Would writing an outline be more appropriate here? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 05:24, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave: Yes, I think that works too. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 13:54, 4 December 2024 (UTC)